If I was in the audience of a Broadway show and a performer started shouting at someone in the audience and it wasn't part of the show, I'd be annoyed. Those tickets are expensive. A performer breaking the fourth wall and taking us out the experience of show would be incredibly annoying. That's what ushers and FOH staff are for.
Exactly. This way, instead of the person with the phone distracting maybe like 5 people, now the actor is distracting the entire audience and ruining the show for everyone. This is extremely unprofessional and imo should be a reason to fire an actor. The only reason LuPone wasn't fired is cause it was the end of the run and cause she's Patti fucking LuPone.
Thank you. I heard the story when it was first circulating and was like "in what world is that not wildly counterproductive for you to do as a performer??" Complain to the show/theater management later, don't bring the show to a screeching halt. Disgusting to hear that people are using this as an excuse for racist harrassment though. 😥
Thank you so, so, SO much for covering all of this. The hate against Lillias is disgusting. The audience member herself even said she thinks it was a misunderstanding and Lillias didn’t have any malice behind it, I also like how you covered what happened with Patti Lupone. A great video once again!
As someone who is disabled I really appreciate the discussion about inclusion in the theatre community. I am saddened about what happened to the hard of hearing audience member but Lilias White should not be fired..she should however apologize to the audience member she was rude to.
I would be so mortified if I was the audience member. Having to sit through the rest of the show with people thinking that of you or choosing to have to leave after spending all that money 😥
Nobody should be fired for making a mistake, hopefully she will have apologised. It is awful that she has got any kind of racist backlash regarding what happened. Racism isn’t ok whatever the excuse for it. Theatres do need to figure out how to be more inclusive, some are getting better at this. They can start by including people with disabilities in the conversation, maybe.
Important clarification: Lillias didn’t yell at the audience member or stop the show to reprimand them. She quickly and quietly made some gestures/remarks towards the person. Still bad, still must’ve absolutely sucked for the audience member, but it wasn’t anything like was Patti Lapone has done. Nobody was publicly humiliated in front of the whole audience
So as a type 1 diabetic, I was really upset to see people comment that people with so called disruptive disabilities should stay at home. I sometimes have to check my phone to check my blood sugar levels and I can feel people judging me when I do so. I dont think anyone should have been fired. This was a good learning experience but it also revealed some very disgusting abilist attitudes in the community.
it's a very difficult line to walk because phone screens are distracting as fuck when they light up in a dark theatre, and when I see that it's mostly bored folks checking Twitter. so how do you keep people from distracting everyone else because they can't keep their hands off their phones for 1 1/2 hours at a time, while at the same time keeping things accessible for everyone? I have no idea.
@@Phelie315 it seems like letting the theatre know when you're gonna need to look at your phone for accessibility reasons so they can let the performers know should do the trick. As long as they actually let the performers know
Is there another way you could check besides using your phone that wouldn't be seen as distracting? Sorry if that sounded rude, just thinking that another alternative might be helpful to avoid judgment in the future
@@kassinwonderland22 she would have to do a finger stick, which would be difficult in the dark. Meaning she would need to get up and leave her seat which seems like it would be a tad more distracting.
I don’t agree with you that someone needs to know the person they are talking to/about is disabled in order to be ableist. Quite a lot of ableism is associating symptoms of disability with bad things regardless of wether the person is actually disabled or not. I do agree though that calling the performer ableist isn’t fair. She might be and that may have played a part, but the general inaccessibility of theatre is a way bigger problem and playing a bigger part in this situation
I think this is really important. Many people treat me in a certain way (bullying) because of my autistic traits, without actually realising that what they are ribbing me for is being autistic, but this failure to recognise that and thinks it's fine to mock is a form of ableism in itself. I think it's important to be able to say 'that is ableist, even if you didn't know I'm disabled or didn't realise that what you're mocking is a disability'.
@@ShatteredMirror Yup! i was just watching the netflix show love is blind, in one of the episode's a guy was sharing something emotional, where the girl was doing jumping jacks. The guy found it rude, and i'm just here like; i would've started happy stims! Which can include jumping jacks, so... ableism is in our culture sadly. (autistic & ibs person here)
I am a legally blind actor, Director, and avid theatre goer. I have no vision in my right eye and partial vision in my left. When I go to the theater, I have a cane and use a monocular to see facial expressions and details on stage, even if I am sitting in the front row. There have been Times I was using my monocular while I was sitting in the front row and an actor gave me a weird look or an usher or security person approach me at intermission because they thought I was recording the show. specifically, there was an instance where I was in the front row four Legally Blonde on Broadway and one of the lead performers reported me to house management because they thought I was recording. When I met this performer at the stage door, she apologized and was very gracious. Now, whenever I am sitting close in a theater, I always explain to the house manager that I am visually impaired and use my monocular to see more detail on stage. As a disabled individual, I realize I am not obligated to disclose my disability to the front of the house, but I choose to do so to avoid any potential drama or actor being distracted. In light of the recent Hadestown incident, it is my sincere hope that we can all open up the dialogue about accessibility and inclusion for disabled theater goers and theatre professionals. It starts with education and understanding and I think there was a lot to learn on all sides to help create a more inclusive and thriving theatrical environment for everyone. It is easy for things like what happened last week to occur if there is a lack of understanding, education, and awareness. So, this is a great opportunity to bridge the gap and having those conversations. As for Lilias White, I do believe there was no malice in what she did. She should not be fired from the show, but I do think she should apologize and hopefully many productive conversations will be spurred on from all of this that will lead to positive change for all.
This is always my fear when using my monocular. I tend not to use it if I’m within 3 rows of the front even though if would be helpful. Maybe you’ve got the right idea of just pulling aside an usher and asking the info to be passed on. Thanks
The wild thing is, the person Patti yelled at was a professional photographer there taking photos with permission from the show’s team. Especially ironic with how Patti’s behavior led to the Hadestown incident.
I think people forget, when she has done it there has always been a little more to the story , like when she yelled at the couple for not wearing masks a while ago. They has already been asked repeatedly by front of house. That stuff doesn’t make it in the news as it isn’t as newsworthy as what looks like her just shouting at people for not wearing masks. Not the whole, they are taking the mick and that is why she lost it at them!
No, she has proven herself many times over to be a raging, entitled, haughty bitch. I say good riddance as there are many other talented actors whom I’d rather pay $ to see.
@@luxy8703 Yes there is more to the story. Let's start with the FACT the masks do absolutely nothing. But aside from that Patti LuPone isn't a physician or a healthcare provider so perhaps she should shut her ignorant mouth about things she doesn't understand. Guess what actors aren't supposed to stop shows, break character and yell at audience members either. But for some reason LuPone thinks because someone is breaking a rule that gives her the standing to rip off every member in that show by stopping the show to parade her ego around for attention. Give it a rest sweetheart.
The Lillias White situation is so sad. On the one hand, her behavior was inexcusable. I feel terribly for the poor woman who was yelled at. I don't think any performer should be interrupting a show for infractions like filming (even if the person was filming). It's not just an interruption for the person they're accosting. It's an interruption for everyone on stage and in the audience. That said, I do find it frustrating Broadway hasn't found a way to manage phone use at theaters. Obviously, if someone is using a captioning device, ushers should know and not disturb them. But I was at a performance of Hamilton on Broadway last month and a group of 6 people in the row in front of me were all on their phones, talking, giggling and the ushers only kept flashing lights in their faces. Never asked them to leave. Never did anything except flash a light. Which they thought was funny and honestly just made the entire situation more distracting. It was such a disappointment. I saw several shows that month (including Hadestown). Hamilton tickets were by far the most expensive and was by far the most disorganized, frustrating theatre-going experience I had.
If you read the full thread the OP posted, it actually says that Lillias didn't interrupt the show to yell at her. She went to reprimand her when when she wasn't on stage.
I agree. I think disabled or not. Wrongly calling out and verbally coming for an audience member is bad for everyone. It makes it less comfortable for audience members to see a show with that performer in it, disabled or not. But definitely for disabled people wanting to see the show. To do it multiple times in one show as well is just disruptive to the entirety of the show. Not just the audience but the cast and crew also. They should’ve stopped the show once. Asked the ushers handle it. Or ask while you’re off stage for the situation to be looked into and the ushers should feed back that it’s not a rule break. There just feels like a million alternatives to this that don’t involve embarrassing a disabled person or anyone else and stopping the show and making a whole scene of it.
@@Mari-bc8zm hang on that’s worse. Going to personally to confront someone like that. Not while there’s a show on. Going as a star actress into the audience and a creating a scene with a disabled audience member. Jesus. She’s not the police. Thats not her job. I’d have honestly accepted stopping the show more. But going to embarrass someone in person without all the information. That’s pretty bad
Thanks for the discussion of disability and inclusivity in the theatre. I’m disabled, and this situation is so frustrating, especially as more and more accessibility tools are available through attendees’ own phones. I don’t blame Lillias for making a mistake, but it was so far beyond the pale for her to confront the audience member, let alone multiple times. If an actor thinks anyone is taking photos or videos, they should alert the appropriate backstage staff, who then can deal with it with front of house staff. The stage manager and house manager will know which attendees have accessibility needs and where they’re sitting, and they can relay that info to the actors and sidestep this whole humiliating mess. Frankly, the same goes for Patti back in 2009; she should have alerted backstage about her photography concerns. This stuff is not the actors’ circus, not their monkeys.
Frankly, I propose that larger theatres start implementing a system where when someone buys a ticket, they can just tick a box that says “do you have a disability that requires the use of an electronic device (or another device that produces light or sound) that you may need to access during the performance?”, and then the stage manager or whoever is in charge can see where someone with that device is sitting and tell the actors about it so they know to expect it and can better ignore it during the performance. Lessens that likelihood of a situation like this happening again and also helps actors to be more aware of different factors during a performance
That would essentially “out” that person to the cast. As much as I hope it wouldn’t happen, but it could cause cast members to behave differently towards that side of the house. The easiest thing is to trust the ushers and not be an ass to the audience
The actors don't need that level of personal information about their audience... It should be enough that they are reminded there will be CC devices present that night. This info is publicly available to the audience (whether CC devices or Sign Language interpreter will be offered) before they buy the tickets. I would hate to be singled out and honestly the actors have better things to be focusing on than triangulating whether someone in the audience is using a CC device or a recording device.
Or…actors could just simply not say anything? It’s not their job to handle that. Very rarely should someone have to self-disclose a disability. This ain’t one of those times.
I work in a box office for a theatre and I was told that we cannot ask someone if they have a disability/about their disability. We have wheelchair seats where the patron sits in their own wheelchair, if someone wants to buy that seat we have to inform them of the fact that there is no chair and they would need to sit in a wheelchair or walker with a seat, but we can't ask if they need a wheelchair. I expect it is the same for closed captioning
It is still ableist, just in a more nuanced way, to not consider it could have been a disability aid of many kinds. Blind spots count. But as long as she apologized and learns from it, major consequences seem unreasonable to me, but thats not mine to decide. Hope to hear from more device users. (I do not need to use any devices that would cause this issue in theaters, but am a disabled DEI educator.)
As a person with an "invisible" disability I can tell you that an abelist is someone who assumes that a person with a disability is able to do as anyone else can. It is typically done condescendingly and makes the disabled person feel that they must try harder to do whatever it is that is "expected" of them.
Honestly when I heard about this, I wasn't surprised. The industry needs to do so much more for disabled actors and theatregoers, and this is yet another event that highlights that. Does White deserve the hate/slurs? No. Do they deserve to be fired? No. Does this need to open an honest and frank conversation about disabled inclusion in theatre? Yes, and a much needed one. Ultimately, actors shouldn't be responsible or feel like they can stop a show/call out audience members. If that means improving training for ushers or having a process for actors to report it so it can be dealt with privately rather than run the risk of innocent people being lambasted. And the industry needs to learn how to accommodate audience members better whether they are disabled or not.
I really appreciate you talking about disability and inclusion in theatre! One thing I wish you included was more discussion about captioning devices and what they look like. Disabled patrons not only have to deal with this potential outcome from actors but also dirty looks from the people around them who may not know that they were given this device by the theatre themselves. If you end up having to do a follow up on the situation I would love to see you add this because a lot of your audience would benefit from this education. Thanks again for tackling this topic!
I'd like to learn more about them too. I've not seen them before - I've been to captioned performances that have captions mounted on the sides of the stage.
Whilst I can see what you’re saying about things like the difficulty of getting to the middle of the stalls, think the general rule ought to be that performers on the stage don’t try and do the ushers job. The incident at Hadestown involved a device hired from the theatre but there are also mobile apps that do captioning, so for a performer to tell if it was somebody recording or not would be very difficult and a culture of saying it’s ok for performers to call people out (even quietly) would lead to things like this happening again. Also, as well as caption devices, what about things like diabetics who use their phones to monitor their blood sugar level?
I agree with you, I would also like for cast members of show's that play at theaters that offer things like the captioning device to see the device, have an usher or another front of house staff member bring one into the theater during a rehearsal so that everyone on stage knows what they look like.
You don't need to be knowingly targeting a disabled person to be ableist. Just like how people can be racist or horrible (as you mentioned) without intending to be or purposefully targeting their remarks at someone.
Ironically, at the showing of Hadestown that I saw (at the Durham Performing Arts Center), there was a screen on the side of the stage showing captions. As someone with auditory processing disorder, it was really awesome to see, even if I didn't need it at that show because I had the whole thing memorized 😅 I will be looking for ways to access captions at future shows, as it can be really hard to interpret some lines when mics aren't perfectly aligned, or there's a mix of music and softly spoken words, or my brain just forgets how to find the end of one word and the beginning of the next. The screen on the side isn't a perfect solution, though, as it may be difficult for someone who is dyslexic or near-sighted to read. A personalized option like you might be able to access through a mobile device would be ideal, if the person using it were respectful of others around them and did what they could to minimize excess light (eg by using mid-tone or slightly lighter text on a black background, if that works for their ability to read, rather than white background and black text.) I would be really, really upset if a show I'd been looking forward to were ruined by an actor breaking character to yell at the audience, even if they had been standing up and dancing the YMCA. There is definitely room for improvement in the detection and moderation of device use. If any recreational usage meant you were removed from the theater, even at intermission or the end of the show, fined, and banned from that theater, I think people would think twice. But that could make life harder for folks who are using assistive devices. It'd be a fine balance to strike.
I don't think White should be fired, for the record. I'm hoping this helps establish a non-disruptive plan for reporting and resolving suspected filming or recreational device usage.
@@erbrferg If you want to look at operas or theaters made for opera, they're all designed with caption screens! They're placed so you can watch them and the stage at the same time.
I was there for that performance of Gypsy. The audience was SO with her. When she restarted and sang “I’ve got it do you like it?” The WHOLE audience yelled “yeah!” It’s a theatre moment I’ll never forget. I only very recently (as in last week on Twitter) that it was a photographer, which changes it entirely.
I still really appreciated it because as an avid theatregoer and someone who worked in theatre, I’ve seen so much bad theatre etiquette that makes me really sick. And photography can become a safety issue if flash is used accidentally or on purpose.
I got frustrated with this entire situation because there was just SO much ableism on Twitter. There was so many people who were of the opinion of oh this is on you why didn’t you tell an usher etc which 1) nobody should ever be forced to disclose their disability to enjoy a show and 2) it wasn’t an usher that yelled at her, it was a cast member. Performers should stick to their jobs and leave the other staff to do theirs
I've always had an issue with Patti LuPone stopping the show to yell at an audience member. Yes, they're breaking the rules, but it's not the actor's job to call them out. It's WAY more disruptive to a show to flat out stop a song just to signal out one person.
That's a ridiculous statement. The reason that you disclose a disability is so that you are properly accommodated and incidents like this don't happen. That's why you are asked if you need special accommodations whenever you book tickets. This issue is that you are adopting the language and narrative of the civil rights movement and black lives matter to disability. They are NOT the same thing. Someone saying I don't need to explain something because of the color of their skin is much different than someone having a physical or mental disability and needing to disclose it so that they can be accommodated. People aren't psychics. If you have a disability and you need help, there is no way for people to know unless you say.
@@artfulvariety1099 The audience member WAS properly accommodated, by getting the captioning device. There shouldn't have to be a special "There's a disabled person in the audience tonight" announcement for the cast, because the cast should have been made aware of what accommodations were available in the theatre and could be expected at any time -- that should be built into the process of preparing the show. There are plenty of other reasons why someone might take out a phone (insulin pumps, especially), and the cast and FOH staff should all know that those are things that they should expect and how to react appropriately. Putting the onus on each individual disabled person to disclose at every show they attend is putting the responsibility in the wrong place.
This one of the few times I don’t necessarily agree with you and I’d like to take the time to explain why (and not in an accusingly way!) We definitely need more conversation around disability inclusion in theater (both on the stage and accessibility for disabled viewers). I could go on for hours about venue accessibility tbh Ableism doesn’t need to be directed at disabled people to be ableist. Ableism starts with thoughts and followed by actions, some of which people don’t know are ableist. And as a disabled person it took years for me to build up confidence (and still takes me a. Lot of hyping up) to go out with my mobility devices because of the fear of being harassed or judge. And it happens. I have been confronted in public and yelled at for sitting in disabled seating or parking in handicap spots when it is my right as a disabled person to do so. Also the amount of steps we have to take to get to go to a broadway show (getting through NYC with a mobility device??! Hello! Dealing with not being able to access buildings, the often times embarrassing looks and comments) is hard enough. If I had been that audience who was called out I would’ve been a mess; it’s traumatizing and definitely would stay with me for a very long time if not forever. So while I don’t believe the actor should be fired I definitely believe steps need to be taken to educate and compensate that person. I wouldnt have been able to enjoy the show after that.
Same. I can walk a little bit, but I have a lot of trouble with stairs. If I go to a show and park right next door, then I probably would be fine walking from the garage to the theatre without a mobility aide, but I usually use my walker anyway, because I get a lot of hassle about using the ramp or "accessible door" or getting an accessible seat if I don't have a visible "this is a disabled person" cue like the walker. (That "accessible door" is at the August Wilson -- it's a side entrance, with a lot fewer stairs than the main entrance, but there are still stairs. There is a really rickety lift, but the ushers never offer it -- you need to know that it's there and ask to use it.)
@@callalily3994 I’m in the same boat! I have 3 devices depending on the day and each one comes with their own issues. I’m sorry you’ve had to experience these difficulties. We shouldn’t have to deal with all of this just to enjoy a show
you can be ableist even if you don't know the person you're yelling at is disabled, because not considering that someone might be using an assistance device and then shouting at them for it is a resolute of an ableist mindset even if you wouldn't knowingly do such a thing.
Had no idea this drama was a thing. As an actor who does front of house between jobs, it is frustrating being on stage and seeing people on their phones or filming, but it's not our job as actors to deal with it imo. If Lillias had just reported it to stage management, they could have communicated with FOH and, in an ideal world, the situation could have been explained/clarified. Lillias should apologise but I don't think she should be fired - I can imagine this has been embarrassing enough and death threats/racial abuse is just horrific. I hope the theatre goer is not put off from coming back to see shows and hopefully other actors will take note that there are reasons audience members may need phone-like devices in the auditorium (which are usually, literally smartphones!)
I was at a comedy show once, and the comedian called out an audience member in the front row being on their phone. Turns out the audience member volunteered for a suicide prevention hotline, and they had to be on call that night. The comedian was absolutely MORTIFIED, apologized, and swung part of the routine to raise awareness for suicide prevention (the hotline was specifically for veterinarians, which a lot of people in the audience likely didn't know have a high rate of suicide). IMO, that's the better way to handle something like this. It cannot be done in a Broadway show, because the audience and performers don't have that that connection; a fourth wall is very much still up between them. The audience member could not explain on the spot, and Lillias could not apologize on the spot. Now, it's evolved into this, and it's gotten WAY too out of hand.
Equality & inclusion in theatre is such an important discussion to have. I applaud your efforts & take on things. So in response, I am coming at this as theatre lover, performer & someone who worked as a FOH Manager for 12 years. As an audience member, I have payed a lot of money to see a high quality performance. I find it totally changes the mood in the auditorium when a performer calls out an audience member & can really affect the audience enjoying the event, not to mention it is unprofessional. I have also been in an audience where it became necessary for a stand up comedian to ask an audience member if they would mind leaving because they had brought a child to a show with an adult content warning & sat centre front row. The parents refused to leave & the whole situation became so awkward & awful for the comedian, so I understand the frustration of performers. I think if they have specific, definite information in front of them & it doesn’t affect the performance (it would be different for a play) then they should be free to call it out. I also really, really despise phones being used as recording devices or for photographs. There’s nothing worse than trying to watch a show with a phone lit up in your view line. If that person is close to me, and it is really obvious that they are recording or taking photographs, I would quietly & privately ask them to refrain. Or I would mention it to theatre staff. But only if it were obvious. As a FOH Manager, it is the theatre staff’s job to manage these issues. Performers should relay to BOH staff that there is an issue & it should be handled appropriately. The theatre I managed had long rows & no aisle, so the torch technique was used & most often was completely ignored. My instructions were always make sure it’s a definite breach of theatre rules, if not sure leave it to the FOH Manager to handle quietly, if obvious try twice & after that let me know where they were so that I could approach during intermission or post show. If there is an audience member using a captioning device, it has usually already been conveyed to the FOH staff. Theatre managers also need to take a harder line with inappropriate mobile phone use. I have been in a situation where someone was live streaming a performance to a boot leg site (I found it by accident) & after speaking to the tour manager was asked to stop it if possible. The only way to do so was to make my presence felt multiple times during the performance. The theatre manager was in the audience, and in front of ushers & audience post show I was raked over the coals by the theatre management for entering the auditorium so many times, no matter how discrete (it was three times, tops). Not only was this an incredibly humiliating & degrading incident, but a totally inappropriate response to the situation. Even after I explained, I was told I was wrong. Events are about experience, and I believe a FOH Manager’s job is to make that experience the best they can by discretely handling issues. As an actor, I find it incredibly unprofessional to stop mid show & call out audience. The actor’s job is to serve the story & to provide the best experience possible to audience members (who have most often paid significant amounts). By stopping mid show to lecture someone, you are making it all about you & no longer about the performance. There are appropriate ways to convey issues to theatre staff. It is their job to handle it, not the performer’s. I saw video of the Patti LuPone incident. It was horrifically unprofessional. I imagine that the Hadestown incident was similarly unprofessional. It needs to not happen, full stop. Let the theatre staff do their jobs & deflate your own ego a bit. Sorry for the long comment, but I do feel I have a unique triple take on this. I am also non visibly disabled & have my own needs that are not addressed by theatres at all. I do believe that the best thing we can take from this situation is to use it to educate ourselves as theatre goers, performers & theatre staff. Access to the arts is a huge & nuanced discussion. The first thing, though, should be actors forgetting about themselves for a minute & handling the situation appropriately & discretely.
As someone who loves going to the theatre I do not in any way approve of people recording or taking pictures when not allowed, and sure the light from cellphones can be distracting, but that being said it would disturb and anger me so much more if an actor stopped the show to berate an audience member. I might be slightly more understanding for a solo show, but for a play or a musical it's an absolute no no for me and I might even consider asking for my money back since it most definitely would ruin the whole experience for me.
^^^^^^ ALL of this. A whispered message to a BOH crew member offstage is professional, tactful, doesn't disturb the show or other attendees, and would enable the BOH/Theater Managers/Ushers to investigate the situation before tossing out public accusations. Those public callouts by actors strikes me as very tacky, unprofessional, selfish, and reflects more poorly on them than the person they're calling out. Big stars get a pass, or are even celebrated, for this kind of "legendary" behavior, which is a shame. It's also not an effective deterrent. I can very easily see a superfan purposely trying to get called out by a favorite performer.
I normally love what you you say but not this time. I am disabled. It is not infantisizing disabled people. It is about understanding about shouting at someone like that can affect them, and make them not ant to go out and do something they love in case something similar happens again. It can take a lot of courage for people with. Disabilities to start using things to help make their life easier because they worry about peoples comments such as you don’t look or sound disabled and the lifetime of struggles they have often had. It can be anxiety inducing. So for someone to publicly call them out like that can feel soul destroying. Imagine if someone called your sexuality out on stage just as you were coming to terms with it. That is what it can feel like for a disabled person, you are left feeling very raw and exposed. You are fab and entertaining, but please try and be a little more aware and understanding of the many challenges faced by disabled theatre goers. We are often given a difficult time when we go out on a daily basis so like many others, theatre shows when you can manage to go can be a wonderful escape from how difficult daily life can be. Poor understanding and not seeing that whilst disabilities are very varied peoples attitudes seem to very much not have changed sadly and we are still struggling to find a place where society accepts rather than musts tolerates us. Nobody thinks it is actors job to police the stage, but if they get it so badly wrong , then it is their job to apologise, as I feel if Patti luPone had made such a mistake then she would have been the first to say sorry. I think her decision to quit has probably been on the cards since the death of Sondheim. I guess I am trying to say we shouldn’t have to worry about going out in case someone is going to get it wrong. Their comments can have long lasting effects on people, it can’t always just be brushed off. Clearly more training needs t9 be given to theatre staff both front, back and creatives and disabled theatre goers. Don’t , when theatres get it wrong, basically, just brush over the theatre goers experience as I am sure you wouldn’t if they had called out someone for being gay in the theatre. Sorry, I am aware that is a blunt tool, but that is the nearest comparison, that I think you would understand as people seem to have no understanding of disability or the issues faced by disability or the social anxieties that it causes them at time because of ignorance.
As someone who is both Queer and disabled I can say that (from my perspective) those two are genuinely nothing alike. This isn’t shouting that someone is hard of hearing and that there’s something wrong with that this was someone who made an honest mistake and is probably feeling really bad about it. While I don’t know that for sure in my experience that’s the case. While I understand what your saying I genuinely agree with what he said and think it’s true. We don’t need someone to come to our rescue. People from this community are already speaking out about this I’m sure. And it’s our voices that need to be out there. What happened was a problem but not because of ableism. We aren’t victims we’re really strong and we’re able to stand up for ourselves and if we aren’t ready to than someone else from the community probably will. And “getting something wrong” could literally (as proven by Patti Lupone’s situation) could happen to anyone. This wasn’t because they were disabled. I agree things need to change. But your comparison doesn’t work in the slightest. This is just my experience as someone who isn’t deaf or hard-of-hearing but does have their own struggles. I don’t think he invalidated anything. In fact I heard him acknowledge a lot of problems that I have with Broadway. Just my opinion.
@@laurengrace333 Hi, I think the only thing we can agree on there is going to be a lot of differing opinions on this. I totally respect your opinion and appreciate that you couldn’t compare the two issues I suggested, but with out going into too much detail , I made those comparisons I did for a reason and because some people do feel they would feels as exposed regarding both subjects. You have to remember , not everyone’s experience is the same. From a purely disable angle , Being in a chair and having a progressive illness, I have experienced a fair amount of abuse due to Ill informed people over the years as my illness changed shape, I’ve since watched my children having to go through the same thing because they don’t look ‘disabled’ They have dealt with it differently at different times. When staff challenge you , at times you can freeze, sometimes the nature of your condition makes it difficult for you to communicate especially if you have autism on top of your physical disabilities, again that isn’t often obvious in girls. It can be difficult speaking up at the time. It also, never fails to amaze me, how people think they have the right to say whatever they want to you or about you because you are disabled and the shocked look on their face when you do actually any something back to them! Disabled voices definitely need to be heard and things need to be improved. I’ve actually had a staff member open a disabled toilet before when we have been in there, using it. No apology given at all, even when we came out. They just said well I didn’t hear you when we knocked, and the other person said they had been waiting to use it. They had knocked once, this other person! Total embarrassment and you then no longer feel safe using them . The toilet is often so far from the door , if it is open accidentally you can be left feeling very exposed. There are so many issues that need addressing. There are never easy answers to things like this. Yes, some people are great at advocating for themselves and others , but some still are not at a place where they are comfortable talking about these issues for a variety of reasons, such as, they are still coming to term with the life changing events in their life, and the last thing they need is someone making a issue about any of it. As I think we can both agree on, there isn’t a simple answer to this though. I hope some of that makes sense ! I’m really tired so I may end editing at some stage when I realise this make s no sense at all” Xx
As someone who’s disabled, talking about the different kinds of accessibly is SUPER important. Going to theatre is one of the most “accessible” was to be involved in theatre, bc a lot of theatre IS hard for disabled people to accomplished, unfortunately. Accessibility doesn’t just mean “Handicapped parking,” and “accessible seating.” It’s so disheartening to see someone else who’s disabled pointed out by an actor, when the theatre go-er was just tying to listen to the musical. Yes, it was ableist in and of itself, but it was super close to ableism. Ableism needs to be talked more about in theatre, so these kinds of events don’t happen again.
I really appreciate what you've said. There should in no way be any calls for firing or ANY racism or harassment. HOWEVER doing something unintentionally ableist is similar to being unintentionally homophobic or unintentionally sexist. Speaking as a terminally ill deaf and disabled woman who loves theatre and is gay (so know the gravity of comparing the unintentional results of things I've experienced from homophobia vs. ableism vs. sexism) the fact that this is being brushed off as unintentional = okay, gives me bad vibes. Unintentional doesn't mean it isn't something serious that needs to change. Unintentional means she was expecting to grab the phone of a Bootleg in process not expecting it to be an accessibility device - and if we just allow 'unintentional' to be the excuse here it prevents any learning at all. When you eff up you feel shame in yourself, and thats why people often have extreme reactions to their own mess ups. Its important to use that fuel to put your hands up and say "I messed up" and instead of harbouring shame we should instead use it as fuel to prevent other injustices and raising awareness. I'm terminally ill and am very visibly disabled. People are horrendous, and ableism isn't seen as much of an important thing within our society than it should be. As I say, no harassment is ever okay, but learning (especially in the public sphere, my god I can only imagine) and using the press generated to raise awareness about the inaccessibility of theatre would be the best thing to do here BUT if I was being attacked to that extent I don't know if I would see that right away; because hate often makes people take cover or double down on their actions. TLDR: Mutual respect is needed in every situation. Quite a lot of people effed up at the Theatre's side of things for something like that to happen. If someone had taken my phone (which has captioning software installed for my use) I would never go to a live show again for fear of it happening again. The poor theatre go-er did EVERYTHING right in alerting front of house; and this happens everywhere. PLUS the whole point of working towards equality is so that disabled people don't need to say 'hey I'm disabled, grab me a ramp please' 30 days before they attend. True equity is being able to turn up at the same time as anyone else would and being able to do so in accessible way. Its tricky but its important that these things are said. I would've sobbed and sobbed and sobbed if a performer did that to me. Its like ripping someone's ear drums out. Losing the other half of communication is terrifying in itself; but someone thinking that you're making a bootleg and exposing the accessibility device TO THE AUDIENCE outs the D/Disabled person and is pretty humiliating in itself.
The only thing I will disagree with is the idea that there has to be intention or knowledge for it to be ableist. Whether it be sexism, racism, homophobia or any other form of discrimination, I think the majority of bigotry comes from ignorance and thoughtlessness not outright malice. Attacking someone for using a hearing aid is still ableism whether the attacker knew it was a hearing aid or not, it's still something that wouldn't have happened if the individual hadn't been hard of hearing and that will make everyone who needs such a device afraid that the same might happen to them in the future. Therefore it is contributing to the disclusion of non able bodied persons whether it was intentional or not.
Ive been a FOH manager for an out of state Broadway venue and even when the rows are long without a center aisle there is a dragnet for devices, to the point where we monitor the wifi and bluetooth for uploads and new connections. Filming is not a joke, we could lose our contract with BAA if we are not diligent. That said, we have communication with back of house regarding photography and ADA accommodations. We communicate with the performers specifically for the first 10 rows and the tier. These guidelines would have helped with Lillias, but funny enough, not Patti!
On Patti- My Husband worked on the London revival of Company. He always said how gracious, loving and kind she was. When we attended the closing night party, she gave him the biggest hug and thanked him for everything he had done. Always a warm presence.
Mostly just sad that, even 2 weeks on, still no apology from Lillias or Hadestown. It wouldn't be much, but it's heartbreaking to see a show I love so much not do just a simple thing of *apologising to the person*, even in an email or a DM.
I disagree with the idea that it’s infantilising to acknowledge how traumatic this experience could be for disabled people. Obviously punishment wouldn’t be applied based on hypotheticals so if THIS audience member is infact okay then that’s what’s important, but as someone with autism who would really benefit from having headphones on while at the theatre, this is the exact kind of horror story I’ve been terrified of happening. Now I life In the UK as well and have a sunflower lanyard that I wear to things like this so chances are if I did wear my headphones it would be understood why, but still. The absolute fear that anyone - especially a cast member - would publicly shame me in a crowded theatre is gonna keep me from actually enjoying the show.
I was watching a performer's Instagram Live a few days ago, and someone in the comments said that they wanted to come to the show, but had sensory issues and would want to wear ear protection, and wanted to know if this was OK or if it would be rude, before buying tickets. The performer was like, "Oh, of course you can wear whatever you need to, we've got people here with headphones and sometimes sunglasses, do whatever you need to do in order to enjoy the show!" but I felt so bad for everything that had made this person feel that they even had to ask.
Whether the theatre-goer was disabled or not, I think no performer should EVER yell at an audience member during a performance for something like having their phone out. This isn't a concert where you're directly interacting with the audience; there's a fourth wall, and breaking the illusion is costly for everyone else in the theatre as well. I've never thought Patti's 'who do you think you are' was a girlboss moment. Like, I understand it can be extremely frustrating to spot someone filming, but imagine if every performer did that whenever they spotted someone! It'd happen way too often. Tickets are expensive. I don't want my experience ruined just because someone else decided to get their phone out. There's a bootleg out there of BMC Broadway, filmed from the front row, where Will Roland walks in front of the person filming after the first musical number ends and the lights go out, and tells them to turn it off. That's how it should be done if anything. Or even better, just tell a member of the staff and be done with it...
I’m glad your able to enlighten me and others like myself. In my opinion I feel bad about this because I have autism and ADHD, also I am an actress . I respect the fact other audience members might find someone recording to be offensive, however that doesn’t mean I condone othering disabled people‼️
I really disagree with your comment that Lillias's actions aren't ableist because they were not aware of the disability. The idea that disabled people should self identity and inform others so they don't "interrupt" or "distract" is ableist. You can be ableist without intending to be. This isn't meant to demonize Lillias, but rather acknowledge that disabilities come in a multitude of forms and require different accommodations. I really don't think we need opinions from abled people in this conversation because 1. they don't have experience or skin in the game and 2. the disabled community already has people with every condition/walk of life to provide different views. What might work for and be endorsed by people with physical disabilities may not be supported by neurodivergent people, etc.
Agreed! Not to mention that physically disabled people don’t agree with each other on this topic! My disabled friends and I don’t view this topic the same way and I think it does a disservice for able bodied people to lead the conversation. Id love to see Mickey maybe talk to a handful of disabled theater fans and get perspectives.
Ableism works a lot like racism. Ignorance can fuel it. You don't need to be intentionally cruel. When you believe something out of ignorance and do not seek to make a correction/broaden your horizons... Then yes. Yes you've committed this act. If you truly believe black people cannot swim, you are racist. Pure and simple. And if you believe this and swear it up and down because "but you've never met one who could" because you live in the city and there's no place to swim... You're still racist because you're not connecting the obvious dots here and choosing to go with the racist choice instead of "well stupid maybe it's because you and your buddies never got access to learn at the city pool". That's all still racism. The same goes for ableism and ableist remarks. You can be a moron and be any of these things, even if you didn't mean it. There's the stupid kind and the malevolent kind.
The only input I have in this situation is isn't it super funny that so many celebrities and public figures demand privacy and respect but then they go and berate ordinary people in public settings like that for things they have no business interfering with?
I looked into the Patti LuPone thing when it happened and found a short interview somewhere. You're right, she'd given up Equity last April. Sounds like it was for a fairly dramatic and specific reason, but she didn't want to discuss it. The reporter checked with Equity and yes, she had given it up and would have to reapply if she wanted it back. But I can't imagine that would be a huge deal for Patti LuPone.
I'm sad that Patti LuPone spoke about it before Lillias White even apologized. I get that it was a misunderstanding, but like... She should till apologize for being so unprofessional and for any discomfort caused.
I have a lot of feelings about this. Having only really understood the context of what was going on through your video. Having really only just heard about the Hadestown incident from this video that’s the thing that’s at the forefront of my mind. Because it makes me angry. As a CODA (child of a deaf adult) and someone who spent 10 years in the interpreting field. So a total of about 30 years of advocacy in various roles. I am so mad that people are still not educated about deafness and hearing loss. There is so much nuance in the realm of deafness. There are people who are fully deaf and most likely culturally Deaf, there are people who have cochlear implants, there are people who have mild to moderate hearing loss and are considered culturally Hearing. And society at large refuses to understand this nuance and accommodate accordingly. The thing I hate about events (theater, comic cons, corporate etc,) is that when one accommodation is provided (ie a captioning device or in person interpretation) then all other needs are ignored. So say you have an event that is interpreted the event coordinators usually will say that there is no need for captioning or captioning devices because they have provided an interpreter. NOT ALL DEAF PEOPLE USE SIGN LANGUAGE, READ LIPS, OR CAN READ THE COMMON SPOKEN LANGUAGE. And the biggest gaps are systemic no one bothers to educate themselves about accessibility. In the theater they can’t even be bothered to do more than one signed performance per run. Idk how it works on Broadway but here when a tour comes to town only one or two of the performances is interpreted and I didn’t even know captioning was an option until today watching your video. In my opinion every single show should have staff interpreters for every performance. And having them should not make producers skimp on the captioning devices either and there should be workshops for actors on how to interact with a deaf audience or handle distractions in regards to any accessibility needs being met. I have more opinions on accessibility in general but this video is not the place. And I think it’s kinda gross that LuPone spoke on it without considering the fact that it definitely pulled focus from the actual issue (although no one involved should be canceled JUST EDUCATED!)
Most Broadway shows have the captioning devices, though some shorter limited runs don't. (I think the rule is they need to have them if the show is running for more than four weeks, not counting previews.) Some touring shows have captions, but both the production and the venue have to have the right systems in place for it to work -- the production to provide to captions and cues, and the venue to provide the hardware. (I know that the current tours of Frozen and DEH can do it if the venue has the hardware, but I'm not sure which others, or how many venues have it set up.)
Pretty sure the actor is busy dealing with being Black and female and plus sized in this country. Your blues ain’t like hers. She didn’t attack a person because she thought they were deaf. But Ms. White IS getting death threats and calls to be fired.
@@tananario I never said she did. I am upset that there isn’t more accessibility education out there so this type of thing doesn’t happen. I’ve seen this type of situation happen waaaay too much as a professional, a friend, a daughter, and as a someone just grabbing a cup of coffee and needing to deescalate a situation so someone didn’t get the cops called on them for being deaf. My anger comes from a place of seeing people in Power (the people with the money not the actress in the show) always choosing the convenient/cheaper route instead of choosing to create safe spaces for those with accessibility needs. It may cost more money to have an accessibility awareness workshop or pay for interpreters for every show during a run BUT it would mean the world to the deaf and hard of hearing people. They wouldn’t be called out due to ignorance or they wouldn’t have to shell out 100 dollars for a ticket to a show where they will get nothing out of it except seeing their kid light up at being at their favorite musical because there’s no interpreter available (remember captions may not work for everybody). I’m hearing but because I’ve had to be an advocate for my father my entire life I am always aware of when services are lacking, I work in the event business now and I’m always casing spaces for accessibility and where there is lack of access. And again this is in one perspective in a much larger conversation about accessibility for people with all kinds of unaccommodated needs due to disability. The actress shouldn’t be fired or subjected to racism, fat phobia, and misogynoir The entire culture needs to be shifted towards inclusion. And while I’m here actors/actresses shouldn’t call out audience members, and all broadway/ west end shows should be recorded and distributed legally because screw classism and gate-keeping of the arts.
@@daviddelara7158 I have met so many people who would benefit from captioning but because interpreters have been provided for an event the project managers refuse to pay extra for captioning services. We need both!
As a theater goer I hate when people are holding up their cameras! It blocks my view, is distracting and makes me angry. The house should manage this, but they can't/don't which makes me more angry. My ticket cost a lot of money and this disrespect makes me livid. I am usually relieved when an actor calls out this behavior because it relieves my tension. The actors should not have to do this, but at least someone is doing something! Phones to check blood sugar & captioning devises are necessary and can be used discreetly. Theaters and producers need to manage this issue.
I was thinking about some recent incidents I’ve seen and how impossible the job is for ushers if the rule breakers lack all shame or basic good will. What some people don’t know when they see a clip of an actor stopping a show is that the atmosphere near the audience member has already been distracting and tense for some time. Loud exchanges, pushing and shoving, and demands to leave were involved the last couple times I was near an audience member confronted by an usher.
I disagree that you require knowledge of the disability or malicious intent to do something ableist. I think it was an honest mistake and Lilias White should not be fired, but I think it's part of a systemic problem in which performers and the general public just aren't aware or made aware of issues involving disability. I appreciate and agree with everything else you said though!
Just wanted to say I was at a performance of Hadestown last week in the mezzanine and there was a couple in the front row with their feet up in front of the lights and wires and the ushers just kept coming and flashing lights at them and doing nothing else. The couple was very distracting for everyone in the mezzanine and Im sure the cast as well but they were not removed and continued this throughout the show. If this is how the ushers handle these situations I can see why actors feel the need to take it into their own hands.
I met Patti LuPone outside the Guilgud Theatre a few years ago when the most recent production of Company first opens on the West End. Met her at the stage door and asked her to sign my copy of her autobiography. What a thrilling evening that was. So glad I had the nerve to talk to her considering the turn of recent events. I will remember our exchange forever. She was so lovely to me. ❤️
My opinion on bootlegging is that if you want to stop it have a professional recording. I'm still hurt I never got to see the OG Wicked cast that I heard all the time because I had the album but never got to see the show...
I ended up seeing shows because I had see the bootleg online. I honestly wasn't sure if I'd like the show enough to justify the crazy prices (plus traveling from NI over to London). If people just want to watch the pro recording, then they can do that (like Hamilton on Disney+), but for people who love the theater, they will always strive to see things live. Plus professional recording opens theater up to a much wider audience, from disabilities, elderly, less mobile (getting into central London can be quite a hike!), those with kids (needing to pause shows, etc) and those of us who live within the UK, but a flight away from London and usually not on the "UK tour" schedules for most shows!
Because, and I quote "but we want them in our seats!" Except this would be additional revenue for us. Hi. Disability took me out of acting. And bootlegs help future actors get acquainted with current actors. They're really helpful. I'm a pro-bootleg actor. We're not all dicks. Live theater is currently gatekeeping and ableist right now.
Thank you thank you thank you for highlighting that disabled people face so many barriers to enjoying the theatre. Thank you for pointing out society's tendency to infantilize the disabled. I am a disabled theatre enthusiast who uses a wheelchair and service animal, and I have found theatre distressingly inaccessible and exclusionary as an adult, from many angles. Financially, availability of seating, assistance animal law etc. I don't agree with the backlash against Lillias. I do think Front of House needs to make casts aware that accessibility devices and accommodations are offered by the theatre and they may see them being utilized. I think ushers need better training, as someone who has faced discrimination during shows. I think callouts from the stage, for any actor, are less than advisable. If nothing else, because it breaks immersion and can take the entire cast out of "the moment". We need to start talking about what accessibility in theatre REALLY means and working toward making theatre as inclusive as its reputation would have you believe. There's more work to be done here. The racist epithets used against Lillias are wrong. She's been nothing but graceful, receptive to learning, and apologetic. People need to let her learn, accept her apology as the disabled patron has done, and move on.
I thought I had heard that Patti was essentially intending to quit Broadway anyway - I think it was inferred via a Company interview where she talked about "going out on a good one". She likely will continue shorter commitments for TV and film.
Yes Ms. Patti gave up her Equity card in June/July when Company closed. The reason was $$$. The Equity folks were taking off the previous cap on high earners such as Patti, and she believed this was both a personal affront to her and also a negative for long-term efforts to attract high paid stars to Broadway (Sweeney Todd and Josh Groban, anyone). I read a recent article about it this weekend. I am a huge fan of Ms. Patti's although I never got to see her in-person on Broadway. When folks reach her level of stature I believe they do have a voice and influence, but it is not up to her alone to deal with questions of ableism as a white woman.
i was recently diagnosed with meniere’s disease which is an inner ear disorder that will eventually make me lose my hearing. theatre is my home away from home. if i wasnt able to enjoy it anymore, i would be heartbroken. bringing the accessibility options for people to light is important. but the racism coming out of this is utterly disgusting.
Lillias shouldn't be fired. As a person with a disability who goes to live theatre I don't expect my situation to always be understood by everyone I meet right away and it's very easy for honest mistakes to be blown out of proportion. Can we just leave this is a chance to learn and not be so punitive? Also listen to the disabled person directly affected? That would be nice.
I agree. The calls for her to be fired are absurd (and mostly racist), and I've seen almost none of them coming from disabled people -- it's all been from people who claim to be "supporting" us but really are just grasping an opportunity to be terrible. There's a whole lot of education and discussion that could come from this, but it's been entirely overshadowed by the inevitable racist backlash, and now by Patti LuPone's need to grab the spotlight.
According to the NY Times, LuPone left Equity over the summer primarily because the union removed its cap on dues for high end earners (Equity's dues structure is tied to earnings, so the more you earn, the higher your dues; there used to be a cap on those earnings which has now been removed). Patti is most definitely one of the high earners in Equity, and she has resigned from the union because her dues went up.
I very much disagree that just because they didn’t know that that person was using an aid means that they can’t be ableist. That is not true. Not considering people who are differently abled and wether or not they were using a device to help them is ableist in and of it self because it completely fails to consider that disabled people exist, and implies that disabled people only deserve consideration if they scream and shout about their disability. If they don’t, then it’s their own fault for not having things be accessible or people be considerate. Furthermore as a disabled person this has hit a nerve. This summer I was going to a concert and beforehand I was reading a lot of stories from other people about their experiences going to concerts and the frequency of bands and singers yelling at people in the audience for not standing. This gave me so much anxiety, the thought of being yelled at because they think you’re being disrespectful but really you just can’t stand for very long or at all was terrifying! The culture of ‘yell first ask questions later’ is so toxic, and yes, ableist. I hope to live in a world where people give others the benefit of the doubt. TLDR: assuming that everyone have the same body and same abilities IS ableist
Up until this event occurred, I was not aware that tech exists for live captions. That's great! But it also creates a challenge - how do theatre staff distinguish between someone using caption apps and someone doing bootleg or non-permitted photography? From doing public events, I know that unethical people will exploit every accessibility upgrade for personal gain. I can just see a bootlegger switching over to a captioning app when called out by an usher. It's going to take some experience on the ground (and in the aisles) to create global accessibility without enabling disruptive behavior.
Most of the time disabled audience members will let the staff know a head of time (in my experience and with my friends). It definitely can lead to people taking advantage of the system but that’s unfortunately a common theme with able bodied people taking over disability accessibility accommodations for their own benefit.
It might be possible to do that while recording an audio bootleg, but it would be really obvious if someone was recording video while claiming to be using a captioning app, since they'd have to be holding the phone up. The GalaPro app needs to connect to a dedicated wifi network at the theatre, and will only work with the phone in airplane mode, but I'm not sure if it disables other apps (like the camera) at the same time.
@@schmauften The screen is dimmed, and on the ones that are just captioning devices (rather than using the person's phone), it's the kind of screen where you can only really see it if you're looking at the right angle. (Which is a common complaint about them -- you've got to hold your arm up in front of you for the whole show to keep it readable. I've seen lots of suggestions that there should be some way to clip it onto the back of the seat in front of you or something.)
It’s easy to see what went wrong here. FOH maybe forgot to tell stage management about the audience member, or they did but SM forgot to tell the actors. Either way, Lillias absolutely should’ve kept her mouth shut; it’s not her job to talk directly to audience members during a show (downright unprofessional). As a fellow hard of hearing audience member, who has experienced ableist microagressions her entire life, I cannot being myself to completely be on Lillias’ side. It’s horrible that people are being racist towards her, and yes her mistake was honest, but it had a damaging effect.
I’m an actress, you don’t break that third wall, ever. I thought it was wrong when Patti did it, and I still do. Now hearing Patti knew about the photographer after the fact makes it even worse. Let the staff handle the audience, and let the show go on.
Oh because the staff and Broadway theaters is always so on top of things and protects the audiences from disturbances, right? I’ve seen offenses happening feet from ushers who do nothing.
I work FOH at a musical theatre in The Netherlands and every time we catch someone we get to shine a torch in their face, best feeling ever 👌🏻the ensuing disapproving head shakes of the people sitting next to them also give me life
I was in the audience when Patti made the comment. She is an actor. She stopped the show because the individual in the audience refused to stop what they were/were not doing. Once the comment was made Patti went back into character and performed. Yes, we pay money to see the show. We should not be there to take selfies. It disrupts other individuals from seeing the show. Instead they have to see someone's hand. Yet, this happens beyond Broadway. I have been to other events where it is always happens as you, not doing the selfie, has your viewing interrupted because they need to get the picture and move away. Patti was right.
I do disagree with your idea that someone can only be ableist if they are aware the incident they are objecting to involves disability. Like if someone's walking funny and someone else mocks them for talking funny it doesn't matter if the first person just had a rock in their shoe or had cerebral palsy, it's still ableist to mock that. For a teacher to yell at a student who isn't paying attention is ableist whether the student is just zoned out or is zoned out due to untreated ADHD the teacher wasn't aware of. (Zoning out isn't the best thing to do ofc but it happens and yelling is never an appropriate reaction to it.) My parents getting constantly annoyed at me "not listening" was ableist even when none of us knew what audio processing disorder was and that I had it. Getting annoyed at someone for not looking you in the eye is ableist even if you don't know they have autism. Ignorance is a good reason for someone to not understand someone else's actions and misinterpret them (often as laziness or a lack of care or blatant rudeness), but that does not negate the harm it causes and the fact that it is targeting otherness which is often caused by disability. It's completely inevitable that we will all be ableist in some ways at different points in our lives, what matters is that we recognize when we are, apologize for any harm caused, and try and learn how to do better. It's better we dislike *being* ableist more than being *called* ableist, so I think it's important we call people's attention to actions they've done that are ableist so they can understand and not make the same mistake in the future. Many examples of being ableist are perfectly innocent, too, so it's not like it's even always a negative reflection on your character that that have occurred. Maybe you invited your war vet friend with PTSD to a fireworks show because that's a fun thing to do. Yeah it's a little unthinking, but the intention was to have a nice day with your friend which isn't bad. idk, hopefully you can see what I'm trying to say.
When Patti enters the chat, you know you've got another 'named my swimming pool after ALW' episode... I love that she's so damn outspoken. We need more of that, especially within the theatre industry.
@MickeyJoTheatre As a disabled theatre goer: I ABSOLUTELY think it is possible that a big reason that Lillian White is being attached is because it was brought to our attention that the theatre goer was disabled and, as you said, people with disabilities are thought of by most able bodied people (a large part of the population) as fragile beings that need to be protected at all costs. I do not think this is grounds for termination of employment because while it was probably VERY humiliating for the theatre goer, Lillian White was trying to uphold the rules of her work place which she thought were being disrespected. SHE WAS NOT BEING AN ABLEIST (someone that treats another with prejudice because of a disability) because she didn’t know the person was disabled, nor did she know that the device was being used for said disability. IS IT THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE ACTORS TO CALL OUT A BOOTLEGGER MID PERFORMANCE?: No. The actors job is to tell a story that thousands of people paid good money to see. I think stopping the performance to call out ONE person is very disrespectful to the rest of the audience. Like you said, there are plenty of other people that work at the theatre to deal with this issue. *Side Note: I really appreciate that you acknowledged that it must be hard to go to a place not initially built for somebody with a disability. UnFortunately our society, while definitely much better than 30 years ago when Americans with disability act was passed, still has a long way to go to be 100% accessible so it’s nice seeing an able-bodied young man address that.
Speaking as a disabled person, and one with anxiety who definitely would have not handled something like what happened at Hadestown well (emotionally, I still would have done my best to keep to standard theatre etiquette) I don't think Lillias should be fired. If that person's phone was taken away then I'd say they're entitled to a refund as their ability to experience the show was affected. If not then I think an apology and potentially some free merch should suffice.
The real issue is management and production are not doing an adequate job of communicating with the performers and audiences. The actors shouldn't have to "police" the audience and audience members should communicate that they need technical aids to enjoy the show, especially if it is not an accessible performance. It takes a few seconds to communicate this to the house and a quick note from the SM to the cast keeps everyone in the loop. These are not hard things.
There are a lot of reasons to have your phone in the theater. However, talking to the people around you is not okay and is distracting. I know bootlegging is wrong for various reasons. However, I am so thankful people do this because we would never see certain actors in shows. Those of us who do not live near NYC and can’t get to NYC to see shows nor get tickets so that we can see the actors who originated these roles, thank goodness bootleggers provide this. I’m so glad that we can see Hamilton with the people who originated these roles, but this is rare, probably because it’s so expensive to film a Broadway show. Being able to see Dear Evan Hansen, for example, with the actors who originated these roles, is wonderful thanks to the bootleggers. Bootlegs are not the greatest quality, but at least it’s something. It does not prevent us from going to see the touring group when they come around because we want to see it live. But Broadway bitches about how the majority of people in the US don’t care about Broadway or the Tony awards, this is why. Most of us are not able to see the people who originated the roles on Broadway and almost all of these will not be filmed. It alienates most people.
Patti gave herself the right to discipline her audience loudly more than 10 years ago and continued doing it until the pandemic and found everyone cheering for what she did without any respect to those who go to the theater to escape their anxiety which can easily be triggered by such behaviors from the star of the show. Patti’s behavior opened the doors for every Diva to do the same. I remember attending Kinky Boots few years ago and the understudy who was playing Lola stopped the production and started screaming at an audience member who was texting, that behavior changed the energy of the room to the worse for the rest of the show. Theaters are managed by ppl who are in charge of the whole customer experience and its their job to discipline those who break the rules from the audience, performers should report an incident but never act upon it. I love Patti and I saw her twice on Broadway years ago but I’m glad she decided to quit. Its time for her to take her ADHD medications and learn how to control her nerves and behave.
When i saw cats in korea it was in english so they had screens with subtitles on both sides of the stage. Didnt take away from the performance at all and sometimes i even used them myself when i didnt understand what was happening. Curious on what people feel about something similar being implemented in broadway/other theatre performances
As a former Patti LuPone fan, it is a shame to see that she has no idea where the line between diva and nasty person lies. I have seen her in interviews & her social media content and she thinks her vicious attacks on everyone & anybody are humorous. I, as well as some other theater fans I know, am not saddened by her decision, though I am sure she has done this to get more attention for herself and will be back. Ms. LuPone should learn that humility and modesty are attractive qualities.
I don't think she should be fired, but she should 100% apologize and steps need to be taken in Broadway to help actors and other staff learn how to recognize disabled devices like caption recorders. In regards to whether it was okay that Patti ever burst out like that on stage, I'll be honest I think it was unprofessional. I was never one to like that kind of attitude, especially since I am a supporter of bootlegging shows due to accessibility. Broadway remains unaccessible to the vast majority of people, and until official recordings become a common thing I will continue to be okay with people recording. Just like don't be so obvious about it, theres quietly recording from ur little corner and then theres waving ur giant phone with the flash on which is just annoying.
With regards to Pati giving up her equity card. My current acting teacher is in his late 50’s early 60’s and if you ask people of that age in the industry what it means to them, they will tell you it means a lot. A lot of hard work, dedicated, time, effort and so much more. This was the only way you could get a job back then and you could only get one if you had a job. Additionally, you had to have so many hours of work to be entitled to it. For all these reasons and more, the equity card is of great importance to them and, for me, Patti giving it up is very much a hard thing to do and is very symbolic as she worked her whole life to get and keep it. That’s just my take let me know what you think 👍
I love going to the theatre and the closets that I have ever been to something like this was when I was at school of rock on it’s uk tour I was telling my mum what was happening on the stage because she is blind and so the person sitting behind me (who sometimes was singing along during the show) thought that it would be kind to tell me off for whispering what was happening to my mum and that she can see what’s on the stage which really annoyed me so I told her that she was blind and she said that if she expects someone to talk through the show she shouldn’t go it was awful.
I was at the Lion King in London a few years back, where a large family were translating the show from English into another lanugage for all the children (like 7-8 maybe - 2 on either side of each adult at least!) and it was horribly distracting given the price we had paid. I personally didn't say anything to FOH staff, but I know a lot of people around us were also unhappy, and after the interval they didn't come back. Not sure if they were asked to leave or just seated else where. I would be very unhappy if someone was constantly talking, even at a whisper, throughout a show I had paid a lot of money to go and see. That being said, I do think more shows, including tours, should have more acessibly options - like relaxed shows, sign interpertations and/or captioning and audio description, which makes the show accessibly to more people, but also makes everyone aware that if you are going to see this show, it is a "relaxed performance" and so accompanying music will be lower, house lights will be on (at little), there will be less severe lighting/sound in the show and if there is some noise from audience members or moving around, it is expected and okay. Or allow people to book the boxes, without the extra costs, so that you could assist your mum without disturbing other audience members.
My only qualm with this coverage is that ableism, like any form of prejudice, doesn’t require that any person or institution has malice or intent. The institution has built up a deep seated anger at audience members with ang kind of device, naturally alienating those using devices to help them enjoy the show. It’s institutional ableism, even if unintentional. Ignorance isn’t an excuse.
It’s always surprising for me to hear about these situations… I’m a professional stage actor, and I’ve been performing for over a decade now. Across all of the theaters that I’ve worked in, big and small, touring across the United States, and more, I’ve never been in a situation, where somebody looking at their phone in the audience has been a major distraction to my performance. Even if I am all the way down stage, there’s no real scenario that them looking at their phone would stop me from being able to do my job. I’ve been in situations where loud noises has been incredibly disruptive, but part of our job is being able to separate that from what we’re doing. We might corpse for a second, but we get right back on the horse generally. It’s sort of the same feeling that standup comics give, that the audience is a part of it even though it’s been pre-rehearsed, and once the freight train starts, it’s very difficult to stop or derail it, I think it’s very surprising for me to read that these old heads, who have worked at theaters that I have worked at, are so distracted by such small things….. feels more diva than necessary. “Watch all of my performance!!” People have anxiety or all sorts of reasons they need to check their phone. Sometimes people get overstimulated. These performances are long, and post covid, life threatening. People paid for tickets, they should be able to do what they want. It’s like Shakespeare’s time. Idk, forgive them cause they know not what they do
I don’t think the performer deserved any racist backlash but find it interesting that you say “she’s not ableist because she didn’t know” when I’ve definitely heard the argument that being ignorant of disabled issue is ableism. Same thing with racist issues etc.
Not sure how Patti really works and none of us do. Her hatred of playing the of Eva Peron is known universally! But no one seems to have asked Elaine Paige the original London and stage original in the role. Would love to hear Elaine's view of her experience in the production. Xx Patti always seems to be on a war path!! Ps on bootlegging.... How the hell did the get cameras into theatre's in the 1980s????
A lot of the "bootlegs" from the nineties and earlier seem like they were filmed by someone involved with the show and meant to be seen just by the people working on the show, so that they could see what was working and what wasn't and so on -- I've seen a bunch that you could tell were from when the show was still in previews, because there were some staging elements or lines or whatever that were removed before the official opening. Then as time went on, those tapes or films ended up in someone else's hands (like if the original person died or whatever), and that person had no real obligation to keep them private.
@@hefinrosser8685 Yes, the NY Public Library has an archive of nearly all Broadway shows since about 1970, and a lot of off-Broadway and regional and others. You need to actually go to the library in person to watch them, though, and they're pretty diligent about making sure people don't record them as they're viewing. (You need to get a special collections access card to see them, but anyone over 18 can get one of those by just filling out some forms saying you agree to all their rules.) They usually film each show a week or two before it closes -- often leads to people in the audience posting online about, "I see cameras! Are they making a proshot?" but then it turns out that it was just the library.
Just wanted to ask if you saw her carpet interview with Variety for Netflix’s The School for Good and Evil?? She got specific about really big issues in the industry that she has become more than frustrated with.
The Hadestown situation is sad. Hopefully it will lead to clearer restrictions for shows, as well as rules as to who can call out audience members for making bootlegs and how to prevent people from illegally recording musicals in general. That being said, I hope this situation moves on expediently, as I really want to know how the new Hermes sounds in (hopefully) a new cast recording.
Honestly I don’t agree that ableism implies malice. For example, a new building that doesn’t have a lift in it. That’s ableist, whether the people who designed it meant it to be or not. And it’s not for abled people to decide it’s not ableist, just like I, as a white person, don’t get to decide that something is not racist. Also, calling Patti LuPone able bodied may not be entirely accurate. She’s 73, and often people become disabled as they age. You mentioned her having a bed in her dressing room so she could rest, despite her role not being particularly physically demanding. That, to me, suggests she may be disabled. (For people who don’t know, disability is defined by a condition that limits daily activities.)
Agree with your general take on this. White made a mistake. Make like Elsa and let it go. Regarding LuPone, It was reported in the NYT that she resigned from Actors Equity in summer, after COMPANY closed. She and other high earners on Broadway have been peeved with the union recently after AE removed the cap on union dues for high earners. Apparently, AE used to only take 2.5% on the first $300K earned per annum (so essentially $7,500), but now it's 2.5% regardless of how much you earn. LuPone appears to only be mentioning it now as a non-sequitur in expressing annoyance that she's being retroactively criticized for previously lauded behavior because folks are forcing a comparison with the White situation.
It would be great if every Broadway show had a filmed play for disabled people to watch/pay to view if they don't want us to come to the theater/won't make it accessible for us
Doesn't even have to be with closeups like Hamilton just stick a camera center balcony for one show to make sure we don't miss anything and keep it HD and people will stop bootlegging because we got a legit one from the company in HD with official sound
Her Variety interview on the red carpet elaborated on this a bit more! Doesnt seem to be solely due to the present moment and more so broader Broadway developments she dislikes
i would disagree that lilias' action was not ableist because she didn't know what was going on. i don't speak for all disabled people, but allow me to gently suggest that assuming that someone using an assistive device is doing something else, something nefarious, whether you know what the device is or not, IS a form of ableism. that doesn't mean that lilias ever meant to humiliate a disabled audience member, but it is still important to be cognizant of where our actions and attitude fit into the culture of exclusion and (sometimes willful, sometimes not) ignorance about disability. at the same time, non-black people weighing in here do have to question our harshness in this case and call out racist harassment. people who stir up racist vitriol against a black woman for ANY reason are not the allies.
I recently traveled to Broadway (and actually saw Hadestown during that time). I was honestly kind of frustrated and disappointed with my experience due to everything that you have just talked about. I remember when I saw Chicago that the ushers were honestly very harsh and rude about this (this also applied when I saw Music Man). I understand that they have a job to do and are trying to get people who are recording the performances. I believe they need to figure out a better system for this since and maybe better communication as well, especially in regards to the Music Man. How the Music Man ends is interesting. They go ahead and drop the curtain and bring it back up where Hugh Jackman and Sutton Foster appear in white marching band outfits where they perform a tap number. I was not able to enjoy this performance since most of the ushers were flashing lights and ripping phones out of people's hands. I get why the ushers were doing this, but I am aware that most of the time people are allowed to take pictures and record the performers bow. Most of the time, when someone sees the curtain fall they would think that it is the end of the performance and they want to capture their bow. It is just a challenging task to take on.
@@ce67790 In all likelihood, they settled out of court, and made it all confidential so that all they could, which would mean that all they could publicly announce was that the suit was dropped.
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If I was in the audience of a Broadway show and a performer started shouting at someone in the audience and it wasn't part of the show, I'd be annoyed. Those tickets are expensive. A performer breaking the fourth wall and taking us out the experience of show would be incredibly annoying. That's what ushers and FOH staff are for.
Unless something is life threatening...as a performer...ya just don't break the fourth wall.
Exactly. This way, instead of the person with the phone distracting maybe like 5 people, now the actor is distracting the entire audience and ruining the show for everyone. This is extremely unprofessional and imo should be a reason to fire an actor. The only reason LuPone wasn't fired is cause it was the end of the run and cause she's Patti fucking LuPone.
I agree. I don't think she should be fired for it, but it isn't a good practice.
Exactly. It ain’t their job to judge the matter. Let ushers or whoever else handle it
Thank you. I heard the story when it was first circulating and was like "in what world is that not wildly counterproductive for you to do as a performer??" Complain to the show/theater management later, don't bring the show to a screeching halt. Disgusting to hear that people are using this as an excuse for racist harrassment though. 😥
Thank you so, so, SO much for covering all of this. The hate against Lillias is disgusting. The audience member herself even said she thinks it was a misunderstanding and Lillias didn’t have any malice behind it, I also like how you covered what happened with Patti Lupone. A great video once again!
That’s why I said “Things are so bad right now that actors can mistake captioning devices for cellphones!”
As someone who is disabled I really appreciate the discussion about inclusion in the theatre community.
I am saddened about what happened to the hard of hearing audience member but Lilias White should not be fired..she should however apologize to the audience member she was rude to.
I would be so mortified if I was the audience member. Having to sit through the rest of the show with people thinking that of you or choosing to have to leave after spending all that money 😥
they should do like opera theatres: in the chairs or upon the stage you have subtitles
@@antonellamR2D2 yess! Maybe like a small tv if needed? like a tiny tablet
Nobody should be fired for making a mistake, hopefully she will have apologised. It is awful that she has got any kind of racist backlash regarding what happened. Racism isn’t ok whatever the excuse for it.
Theatres do need to figure out how to be more inclusive, some are getting better at this. They can start by including people with disabilities in the conversation, maybe.
@@danaslitlist1 I absolutely would too!
Important clarification: Lillias didn’t yell at the audience member or stop the show to reprimand them. She quickly and quietly made some gestures/remarks towards the person. Still bad, still must’ve absolutely sucked for the audience member, but it wasn’t anything like was Patti Lapone has done. Nobody was publicly humiliated in front of the whole audience
So as a type 1 diabetic, I was really upset to see people comment that people with so called disruptive disabilities should stay at home. I sometimes have to check my phone to check my blood sugar levels and I can feel people judging me when I do so. I dont think anyone should have been fired. This was a good learning experience but it also revealed some very disgusting abilist attitudes in the community.
it's a very difficult line to walk because phone screens are distracting as fuck when they light up in a dark theatre, and when I see that it's mostly bored folks checking Twitter. so how do you keep people from distracting everyone else because they can't keep their hands off their phones for 1 1/2 hours at a time, while at the same time keeping things accessible for everyone? I have no idea.
@@Phelie315 it seems like letting the theatre know when you're gonna need to look at your phone for accessibility reasons so they can let the performers know should do the trick. As long as they actually let the performers know
Is there another way you could check besides using your phone that wouldn't be seen as distracting? Sorry if that sounded rude, just thinking that another alternative might be helpful to avoid judgment in the future
@@kassinwonderland22 she would have to do a finger stick, which would be difficult in the dark. Meaning she would need to get up and leave her seat which seems like it would be a tad more distracting.
@@heatherann9548 is there a way to do it via fitbit or Apple watch? I could see that being a little easier
I don’t agree with you that someone needs to know the person they are talking to/about is disabled in order to be ableist. Quite a lot of ableism is associating symptoms of disability with bad things regardless of wether the person is actually disabled or not. I do agree though that calling the performer ableist isn’t fair. She might be and that may have played a part, but the general inaccessibility of theatre is a way bigger problem and playing a bigger part in this situation
I think this is really important. Many people treat me in a certain way (bullying) because of my autistic traits, without actually realising that what they are ribbing me for is being autistic, but this failure to recognise that and thinks it's fine to mock is a form of ableism in itself. I think it's important to be able to say 'that is ableist, even if you didn't know I'm disabled or didn't realise that what you're mocking is a disability'.
yesss!! all of this!
@@ShatteredMirror Yup! i was just watching the netflix show love is blind, in one of the episode's a guy was sharing something emotional, where the girl was doing jumping jacks. The guy found it rude, and i'm just here like; i would've started happy stims! Which can include jumping jacks, so... ableism is in our culture sadly. (autistic & ibs person here)
thought this immediately. this is so important to know.
@@ShatteredMirror this
I am a legally blind actor, Director, and avid theatre goer. I have no vision in my right eye and partial vision in my left. When I go to the theater, I have a cane and use a monocular to see facial expressions and details on stage, even if I am sitting in the front row. There have been Times I was using my monocular while I was sitting in the front row and an actor gave me a weird look or an usher or security person approach me at intermission because they thought I was recording the show. specifically, there was an instance where I was in the front row four Legally Blonde on Broadway and one of the lead performers reported me to house management because they thought I was recording. When I met this performer at the stage door, she apologized and was very gracious. Now, whenever I am sitting close in a theater, I always explain to the house manager that I am visually impaired and use my monocular to see more detail on stage. As a disabled individual, I realize I am not obligated to disclose my disability to the front of the house, but I choose to do so to avoid any potential drama or actor being distracted. In light of the recent Hadestown incident, it is my sincere hope that we can all open up the dialogue about accessibility and inclusion for disabled theater goers and theatre professionals. It starts with education and understanding and I think there was a lot to learn on all sides to help create a more inclusive and thriving theatrical environment for everyone. It is easy for things like what happened last week to occur if there is a lack of understanding, education, and awareness. So, this is a great opportunity to bridge the gap and having those conversations. As for Lilias White, I do believe there was no malice in what she did. She should not be fired from the show, but I do think she should apologize and hopefully many productive conversations will be spurred on from all of this that will lead to positive change for all.
This is always my fear when using my monocular. I tend not to use it if I’m within 3 rows of the front even though if would be helpful. Maybe you’ve got the right idea of just pulling aside an usher and asking the info to be passed on. Thanks
The wild thing is, the person Patti yelled at was a professional photographer there taking photos with permission from the show’s team. Especially ironic with how Patti’s behavior led to the Hadestown incident.
I think people forget, when she has done it there has always been a little more to the story , like when she yelled at the couple for not wearing masks a while ago. They has already been asked repeatedly by front of house. That stuff doesn’t make it in the news as it isn’t as newsworthy as what looks like her just shouting at people for not wearing masks. Not the whole, they are taking the mick and that is why she lost it at them!
No, she has proven herself many times over to be a raging, entitled, haughty bitch. I say good riddance as there are many other talented actors whom I’d rather pay $ to see.
@@luxy8703 Yes there is more to the story. Let's start with the FACT the masks do absolutely nothing. But aside from that Patti LuPone isn't a physician or a healthcare provider so perhaps she should shut her ignorant mouth about things she doesn't understand. Guess what actors aren't supposed to stop shows, break character and yell at audience members either. But for some reason LuPone thinks because someone is breaking a rule that gives her the standing to rip off every member in that show by stopping the show to parade her ego around for attention. Give it a rest sweetheart.
The Lillias White situation is so sad. On the one hand, her behavior was inexcusable. I feel terribly for the poor woman who was yelled at. I don't think any performer should be interrupting a show for infractions like filming (even if the person was filming). It's not just an interruption for the person they're accosting. It's an interruption for everyone on stage and in the audience.
That said, I do find it frustrating Broadway hasn't found a way to manage phone use at theaters. Obviously, if someone is using a captioning device, ushers should know and not disturb them. But I was at a performance of Hamilton on Broadway last month and a group of 6 people in the row in front of me were all on their phones, talking, giggling and the ushers only kept flashing lights in their faces. Never asked them to leave. Never did anything except flash a light. Which they thought was funny and honestly just made the entire situation more distracting.
It was such a disappointment. I saw several shows that month (including Hadestown). Hamilton tickets were by far the most expensive and was by far the most disorganized, frustrating theatre-going experience I had.
If you read the full thread the OP posted, it actually says that Lillias didn't interrupt the show to yell at her. She went to reprimand her when when she wasn't on stage.
I agree. I think disabled or not. Wrongly calling out and verbally coming for an audience member is bad for everyone. It makes it less comfortable for audience members to see a show with that performer in it, disabled or not. But definitely for disabled people wanting to see the show. To do it multiple times in one show as well is just disruptive to the entirety of the show. Not just the audience but the cast and crew also.
They should’ve stopped the show once. Asked the ushers handle it. Or ask while you’re off stage for the situation to be looked into and the ushers should feed back that it’s not a rule break. There just feels like a million alternatives to this that don’t involve embarrassing a disabled person or anyone else and stopping the show and making a whole scene of it.
@@Mari-bc8zm hang on that’s worse. Going to personally to confront someone like that. Not while there’s a show on. Going as a star actress into the audience and a creating a scene with a disabled audience member. Jesus. She’s not the police. Thats not her job. I’d have honestly accepted stopping the show more. But going to embarrass someone in person without all the information. That’s pretty bad
@@hollyro4665 yeah I'm not sure why she didn't just ask a manager/usher to talk to the woman. Very odd for an actress to go into the audience.
That “poor woman” was not yelled at. She exaggerated the situation for sympathy clout
Thanks for the discussion of disability and inclusivity in the theatre. I’m disabled, and this situation is so frustrating, especially as more and more accessibility tools are available through attendees’ own phones. I don’t blame Lillias for making a mistake, but it was so far beyond the pale for her to confront the audience member, let alone multiple times. If an actor thinks anyone is taking photos or videos, they should alert the appropriate backstage staff, who then can deal with it with front of house staff. The stage manager and house manager will know which attendees have accessibility needs and where they’re sitting, and they can relay that info to the actors and sidestep this whole humiliating mess. Frankly, the same goes for Patti back in 2009; she should have alerted backstage about her photography concerns. This stuff is not the actors’ circus, not their monkeys.
Frankly, I propose that larger theatres start implementing a system where when someone buys a ticket, they can just tick a box that says “do you have a disability that requires the use of an electronic device (or another device that produces light or sound) that you may need to access during the performance?”, and then the stage manager or whoever is in charge can see where someone with that device is sitting and tell the actors about it so they know to expect it and can better ignore it during the performance. Lessens that likelihood of a situation like this happening again and also helps actors to be more aware of different factors during a performance
That would essentially “out” that person to the cast. As much as I hope it wouldn’t happen, but it could cause cast members to behave differently towards that side of the house. The easiest thing is to trust the ushers and not be an ass to the audience
The actors don't need that level of personal information about their audience... It should be enough that they are reminded there will be CC devices present that night. This info is publicly available to the audience (whether CC devices or Sign Language interpreter will be offered) before they buy the tickets.
I would hate to be singled out and honestly the actors have better things to be focusing on than triangulating whether someone in the audience is using a CC device or a recording device.
Or…actors could just simply not say anything? It’s not their job to handle that.
Very rarely should someone have to self-disclose a disability. This ain’t one of those times.
I work in a box office for a theatre and I was told that we cannot ask someone if they have a disability/about their disability. We have wheelchair seats where the patron sits in their own wheelchair, if someone wants to buy that seat we have to inform them of the fact that there is no chair and they would need to sit in a wheelchair or walker with a seat, but we can't ask if they need a wheelchair. I expect it is the same for closed captioning
this sounds like a terrible idea that'll set up people for public mockery and humiliation, i fear.
It is still ableist, just in a more nuanced way, to not consider it could have been a disability aid of many kinds. Blind spots count. But as long as she apologized and learns from it, major consequences seem unreasonable to me, but thats not mine to decide. Hope to hear from more device users. (I do not need to use any devices that would cause this issue in theaters, but am a disabled DEI educator.)
And of course the racist backlash is horrendous and unacceptable.
As a person with an "invisible" disability I can tell you that an abelist is someone who assumes that a person with a disability is able to do as anyone else can. It is typically done condescendingly and makes the disabled person feel that they must try harder to do whatever it is that is "expected" of them.
Honestly when I heard about this, I wasn't surprised. The industry needs to do so much more for disabled actors and theatregoers, and this is yet another event that highlights that. Does White deserve the hate/slurs? No. Do they deserve to be fired? No. Does this need to open an honest and frank conversation about disabled inclusion in theatre? Yes, and a much needed one.
Ultimately, actors shouldn't be responsible or feel like they can stop a show/call out audience members. If that means improving training for ushers or having a process for actors to report it so it can be dealt with privately rather than run the risk of innocent people being lambasted. And the industry needs to learn how to accommodate audience members better whether they are disabled or not.
I really appreciate you talking about disability and inclusion in theatre! One thing I wish you included was more discussion about captioning devices and what they look like. Disabled patrons not only have to deal with this potential outcome from actors but also dirty looks from the people around them who may not know that they were given this device by the theatre themselves. If you end up having to do a follow up on the situation I would love to see you add this because a lot of your audience would benefit from this education. Thanks again for tackling this topic!
I'd like to learn more about them too. I've not seen them before - I've been to captioned performances that have captions mounted on the sides of the stage.
"Twitter lacks nuance" should be a tee shirt. Or a hash tag.
This. Merch opportunity, Mickey Jo!
Absolutely!! Mickey Jo get on it!!
@@sevensongs Oh yes please! I would immediately buy it!
@@paulamusik2509 Me too!
Whilst I can see what you’re saying about things like the difficulty of getting to the middle of the stalls, think the general rule ought to be that performers on the stage don’t try and do the ushers job. The incident at Hadestown involved a device hired from the theatre but there are also mobile apps that do captioning, so for a performer to tell if it was somebody recording or not would be very difficult and a culture of saying it’s ok for performers to call people out (even quietly) would lead to things like this happening again. Also, as well as caption devices, what about things like diabetics who use their phones to monitor their blood sugar level?
I agree with you, I would also like for cast members of show's that play at theaters that offer things like the captioning device to see the device, have an usher or another front of house staff member bring one into the theater during a rehearsal so that everyone on stage knows what they look like.
Agreed! The performer's job is to entertain & leave the off-stage related stuff to the ushers👍
They should have something like a camera blocking phone case to make it really obvious who has permission and who doesn’t without people exploiting it
You don't need to be knowingly targeting a disabled person to be ableist. Just like how people can be racist or horrible (as you mentioned) without intending to be or purposefully targeting their remarks at someone.
Ironically, at the showing of Hadestown that I saw (at the Durham Performing Arts Center), there was a screen on the side of the stage showing captions. As someone with auditory processing disorder, it was really awesome to see, even if I didn't need it at that show because I had the whole thing memorized 😅 I will be looking for ways to access captions at future shows, as it can be really hard to interpret some lines when mics aren't perfectly aligned, or there's a mix of music and softly spoken words, or my brain just forgets how to find the end of one word and the beginning of the next.
The screen on the side isn't a perfect solution, though, as it may be difficult for someone who is dyslexic or near-sighted to read. A personalized option like you might be able to access through a mobile device would be ideal, if the person using it were respectful of others around them and did what they could to minimize excess light (eg by using mid-tone or slightly lighter text on a black background, if that works for their ability to read, rather than white background and black text.)
I would be really, really upset if a show I'd been looking forward to were ruined by an actor breaking character to yell at the audience, even if they had been standing up and dancing the YMCA. There is definitely room for improvement in the detection and moderation of device use. If any recreational usage meant you were removed from the theater, even at intermission or the end of the show, fined, and banned from that theater, I think people would think twice. But that could make life harder for folks who are using assistive devices. It'd be a fine balance to strike.
I don't think White should be fired, for the record. I'm hoping this helps establish a non-disruptive plan for reporting and resolving suspected filming or recreational device usage.
@@erbrferg If you want to look at operas or theaters made for opera, they're all designed with caption screens! They're placed so you can watch them and the stage at the same time.
I was there for that performance of Gypsy. The audience was SO with her. When she restarted and sang “I’ve got it do you like it?” The WHOLE audience yelled “yeah!” It’s a theatre moment I’ll never forget.
I only very recently (as in last week on Twitter) that it was a photographer, which changes it entirely.
I still really appreciated it because as an avid theatregoer and someone who worked in theatre, I’ve seen so much bad theatre etiquette that makes me really sick. And photography can become a safety issue if flash is used accidentally or on purpose.
I got frustrated with this entire situation because there was just SO much ableism on Twitter. There was so many people who were of the opinion of oh this is on you why didn’t you tell an usher etc which 1) nobody should ever be forced to disclose their disability to enjoy a show and 2) it wasn’t an usher that yelled at her, it was a cast member. Performers should stick to their jobs and leave the other staff to do theirs
Also I think someone mentioned that Into the Woods on Broadway has captions on certain days so maybe other shows might follow in their steps
I've always had an issue with Patti LuPone stopping the show to yell at an audience member. Yes, they're breaking the rules, but it's not the actor's job to call them out. It's WAY more disruptive to a show to flat out stop a song just to signal out one person.
Agree with you and I think it might highlight responsibility on a theatres staff to be more aware
That's a ridiculous statement. The reason that you disclose a disability is so that you are properly accommodated and incidents like this don't happen. That's why you are asked if you need special accommodations whenever you book tickets.
This issue is that you are adopting the language and narrative of the civil rights movement and black lives matter to disability. They are NOT the same thing. Someone saying I don't need to explain something because of the color of their skin is much different than someone having a physical or mental disability and needing to disclose it so that they can be accommodated.
People aren't psychics. If you have a disability and you need help, there is no way for people to know unless you say.
@@artfulvariety1099 The audience member WAS properly accommodated, by getting the captioning device. There shouldn't have to be a special "There's a disabled person in the audience tonight" announcement for the cast, because the cast should have been made aware of what accommodations were available in the theatre and could be expected at any time -- that should be built into the process of preparing the show. There are plenty of other reasons why someone might take out a phone (insulin pumps, especially), and the cast and FOH staff should all know that those are things that they should expect and how to react appropriately. Putting the onus on each individual disabled person to disclose at every show they attend is putting the responsibility in the wrong place.
This one of the few times I don’t necessarily agree with you and I’d like to take the time to explain why (and not in an accusingly way!)
We definitely need more conversation around disability inclusion in theater (both on the stage and accessibility for disabled viewers). I could go on for hours about venue accessibility tbh
Ableism doesn’t need to be directed at disabled people to be ableist. Ableism starts with thoughts and followed by actions, some of which people don’t know are ableist.
And as a disabled person it took years for me to build up confidence (and still takes me a. Lot of hyping up) to go out with my mobility devices because of the fear of being harassed or judge. And it happens. I have been confronted in public and yelled at for sitting in disabled seating or parking in handicap spots when it is my right as a disabled person to do so. Also the amount of steps we have to take to get to go to a broadway show (getting through NYC with a mobility device??! Hello! Dealing with not being able to access buildings, the often times embarrassing looks and comments) is hard enough.
If I had been that audience who was called out I would’ve been a mess; it’s traumatizing and definitely would stay with me for a very long time if not forever. So while I don’t believe the actor should be fired I definitely believe steps need to be taken to educate and compensate that person.
I wouldnt have been able to enjoy the show after that.
Same. I can walk a little bit, but I have a lot of trouble with stairs. If I go to a show and park right next door, then I probably would be fine walking from the garage to the theatre without a mobility aide, but I usually use my walker anyway, because I get a lot of hassle about using the ramp or "accessible door" or getting an accessible seat if I don't have a visible "this is a disabled person" cue like the walker. (That "accessible door" is at the August Wilson -- it's a side entrance, with a lot fewer stairs than the main entrance, but there are still stairs. There is a really rickety lift, but the ushers never offer it -- you need to know that it's there and ask to use it.)
@@callalily3994 I’m in the same boat! I have 3 devices depending on the day and each one comes with their own issues. I’m sorry you’ve had to experience these difficulties. We shouldn’t have to deal with all of this just to enjoy a show
you can be ableist even if you don't know the person you're yelling at is disabled, because not considering that someone might be using an assistance device and then shouting at them for it is a resolute of an ableist mindset even if you wouldn't knowingly do such a thing.
Had no idea this drama was a thing. As an actor who does front of house between jobs, it is frustrating being on stage and seeing people on their phones or filming, but it's not our job as actors to deal with it imo. If Lillias had just reported it to stage management, they could have communicated with FOH and, in an ideal world, the situation could have been explained/clarified.
Lillias should apologise but I don't think she should be fired - I can imagine this has been embarrassing enough and death threats/racial abuse is just horrific. I hope the theatre goer is not put off from coming back to see shows and hopefully other actors will take note that there are reasons audience members may need phone-like devices in the auditorium (which are usually, literally smartphones!)
I was at a comedy show once, and the comedian called out an audience member in the front row being on their phone. Turns out the audience member volunteered for a suicide prevention hotline, and they had to be on call that night. The comedian was absolutely MORTIFIED, apologized, and swung part of the routine to raise awareness for suicide prevention (the hotline was specifically for veterinarians, which a lot of people in the audience likely didn't know have a high rate of suicide). IMO, that's the better way to handle something like this. It cannot be done in a Broadway show, because the audience and performers don't have that that connection; a fourth wall is very much still up between them. The audience member could not explain on the spot, and Lillias could not apologize on the spot. Now, it's evolved into this, and it's gotten WAY too out of hand.
How embarrassing. Talk about an easy way to get an audience to turn against you
I, an American, am laughing so hard at a British man yelling at Americans to "calm down". Believe me, Mickey Jo, we'd like a break too!
Equality & inclusion in theatre is such an important discussion to have. I applaud your efforts & take on things. So in response, I am coming at this as theatre lover, performer & someone who worked as a FOH Manager for 12 years.
As an audience member, I have payed a lot of money to see a high quality performance. I find it totally changes the mood in the auditorium when a performer calls out an audience member & can really affect the audience enjoying the event, not to mention it is unprofessional. I have also been in an audience where it became necessary for a stand up comedian to ask an audience member if they would mind leaving because they had brought a child to a show with an adult content warning & sat centre front row. The parents refused to leave & the whole situation became so awkward & awful for the comedian, so I understand the frustration of performers. I think if they have specific, definite information in front of them & it doesn’t affect the performance (it would be different for a play) then they should be free to call it out. I also really, really despise phones being used as recording devices or for photographs. There’s nothing worse than trying to watch a show with a phone lit up in your view line. If that person is close to me, and it is really obvious that they are recording or taking photographs, I would quietly & privately ask them to refrain. Or I would mention it to theatre staff. But only if it were obvious.
As a FOH Manager, it is the theatre staff’s job to manage these issues. Performers should relay to BOH staff that there is an issue & it should be handled appropriately. The theatre I managed had long rows & no aisle, so the torch technique was used & most often was completely ignored. My instructions were always make sure it’s a definite breach of theatre rules, if not sure leave it to the FOH Manager to handle quietly, if obvious try twice & after that let me know where they were so that I could approach during intermission or post show. If there is an audience member using a captioning device, it has usually already been conveyed to the FOH staff. Theatre managers also need to take a harder line with inappropriate mobile phone use. I have been in a situation where someone was live streaming a performance to a boot leg site (I found it by accident) & after speaking to the tour manager was asked to stop it if possible. The only way to do so was to make my presence felt multiple times during the performance. The theatre manager was in the audience, and in front of ushers & audience post show I was raked over the coals by the theatre management for entering the auditorium so many times, no matter how discrete (it was three times, tops). Not only was this an incredibly humiliating & degrading incident, but a totally inappropriate response to the situation. Even after I explained, I was told I was wrong. Events are about experience, and I believe a FOH Manager’s job is to make that experience the best they can by discretely handling issues.
As an actor, I find it incredibly unprofessional to stop mid show & call out audience. The actor’s job is to serve the story & to provide the best experience possible to audience members (who have most often paid significant amounts). By stopping mid show to lecture someone, you are making it all about you & no longer about the performance. There are appropriate ways to convey issues to theatre staff. It is their job to handle it, not the performer’s. I saw video of the Patti LuPone incident. It was horrifically unprofessional. I imagine that the Hadestown incident was similarly unprofessional. It needs to not happen, full stop. Let the theatre staff do their jobs & deflate your own ego a bit.
Sorry for the long comment, but I do feel I have a unique triple take on this. I am also non visibly disabled & have my own needs that are not addressed by theatres at all. I do believe that the best thing we can take from this situation is to use it to educate ourselves as theatre goers, performers & theatre staff. Access to the arts is a huge & nuanced discussion. The first thing, though, should be actors forgetting about themselves for a minute & handling the situation appropriately & discretely.
As someone who loves going to the theatre I do not in any way approve of people recording or taking pictures when not allowed, and sure the light from cellphones can be distracting, but that being said it would disturb and anger me so much more if an actor stopped the show to berate an audience member. I might be slightly more understanding for a solo show, but for a play or a musical it's an absolute no no for me and I might even consider asking for my money back since it most definitely would ruin the whole experience for me.
^^^^^^ ALL of this. A whispered message to a BOH crew member offstage is professional, tactful, doesn't disturb the show or other attendees, and would enable the BOH/Theater Managers/Ushers to investigate the situation before tossing out public accusations. Those public callouts by actors strikes me as very tacky, unprofessional, selfish, and reflects more poorly on them than the person they're calling out. Big stars get a pass, or are even celebrated, for this kind of "legendary" behavior, which is a shame.
It's also not an effective deterrent. I can very easily see a superfan purposely trying to get called out by a favorite performer.
I normally love what you you say but not this time. I am disabled. It is not infantisizing disabled people. It is about understanding about shouting at someone like that can affect them, and make them not ant to go out and do something they love in case something similar happens again. It can take a lot of courage for people with. Disabilities to start using things to help make their life easier because they worry about peoples comments such as you don’t look or sound disabled and the lifetime of struggles they have often had. It can be anxiety inducing. So for someone to publicly call them out like that can feel soul destroying.
Imagine if someone called your sexuality out on stage just as you were coming to terms with it. That is what it can feel like for a disabled person, you are left feeling very raw and exposed.
You are fab and entertaining, but please try and be a little more aware and understanding of the many challenges faced by disabled theatre goers. We are often given a difficult time when we go out on a daily basis so like many others, theatre shows when you can manage to go can be a wonderful escape from how difficult daily life can be.
Poor understanding and not seeing that whilst disabilities are very varied peoples attitudes seem to very much not have changed sadly and we are still struggling to find a place where society accepts rather than musts tolerates us.
Nobody thinks it is actors job to police the stage, but if they get it so badly wrong , then it is their job to apologise, as I feel if Patti luPone had made such a mistake then she would have been the first to say sorry.
I think her decision to quit has probably been on the cards since the death of Sondheim.
I guess I am trying to say we shouldn’t have to worry about going out in case someone is going to get it wrong. Their comments can have long lasting effects on people, it can’t always just be brushed off.
Clearly more training needs t9 be given to theatre staff both front, back and creatives and disabled theatre goers. Don’t , when theatres get it wrong, basically, just brush over the theatre goers experience as I am sure you wouldn’t if they had called out someone for being gay in the theatre. Sorry, I am aware that is a blunt tool, but that is the nearest comparison, that I think you would understand as people seem to have no understanding of disability or the issues faced by disability or the social anxieties that it causes them at time because of ignorance.
I’m a disabled, Black, and female. And get paid to act in professional theatre. And guess what? Nobody wins the Victim Olympics.
As someone who is both Queer and disabled I can say that (from my perspective) those two are genuinely nothing alike. This isn’t shouting that someone is hard of hearing and that there’s something wrong with that this was someone who made an honest mistake and is probably feeling really bad about it. While I don’t know that for sure in my experience that’s the case.
While I understand what your saying I genuinely agree with what he said and think it’s true. We don’t need someone to come to our rescue. People from this community are already speaking out about this I’m sure. And it’s our voices that need to be out there.
What happened was a problem but not because of ableism. We aren’t victims we’re really strong and we’re able to stand up for ourselves and if we aren’t ready to than someone else from the community probably will.
And “getting something wrong” could literally (as proven by Patti Lupone’s situation) could happen to anyone. This wasn’t because they were disabled. I agree things need to change. But your comparison doesn’t work in the slightest.
This is just my experience as someone who isn’t deaf or hard-of-hearing but does have their own struggles. I don’t think he invalidated anything. In fact I heard him acknowledge a lot of problems that I have with Broadway. Just my opinion.
@@laurengrace333 Hi, I think the only thing we can agree on there is going to be a lot of differing opinions on this.
I totally respect your opinion and appreciate that you couldn’t compare the two issues I suggested, but with out going into too much detail , I made those comparisons I did for a reason and because some people do feel they would feels as exposed regarding both subjects. You have to remember , not everyone’s experience is the same.
From a purely disable angle , Being in a chair and having a progressive illness, I have experienced a fair amount of abuse due to Ill informed people over the years as my illness changed shape, I’ve since watched my children having to go through the same thing because they don’t look ‘disabled’ They have dealt with it differently at different times. When staff challenge you , at times you can freeze, sometimes the nature of your condition makes it difficult for you to communicate especially if you have autism on top of your physical disabilities, again that isn’t often obvious in girls. It can be difficult speaking up at the time.
It also, never fails to amaze me, how people think they have the right to say whatever they want to you or about you because you are disabled and the shocked look on their face when you do actually any something back to them!
Disabled voices definitely need to be heard and things need to be improved.
I’ve actually had a staff member open a disabled toilet before when we have been in there, using it. No apology given at all, even when we came out. They just said well I didn’t hear you when we knocked, and the other person said they had been waiting to use it. They had knocked once, this other person!
Total embarrassment and you then no longer feel safe using them . The toilet is often so far from the door , if it is open accidentally you can be left feeling very exposed.
There are so many issues that need addressing.
There are never easy answers to things like this. Yes, some people are great at advocating for themselves and others , but some still are not at a place where they are comfortable talking about these issues for a variety of reasons, such as, they are still coming to term with the life changing events in their life, and the last thing they need is someone making a issue about any of it.
As I think we can both agree on, there isn’t a simple answer to this though.
I hope some of that makes sense ! I’m really tired so I may end editing at some stage when I realise this make s no sense at all”
Xx
As someone who’s disabled, talking about the different kinds of accessibly is SUPER important.
Going to theatre is one of the most “accessible” was to be involved in theatre, bc a lot of theatre IS hard for disabled people to accomplished, unfortunately.
Accessibility doesn’t just mean “Handicapped parking,” and “accessible seating.” It’s so disheartening to see someone else who’s disabled pointed out by an actor, when the theatre go-er was just tying to listen to the musical. Yes, it was ableist in and of itself, but it was super close to ableism. Ableism needs to be talked more about in theatre, so these kinds of events don’t happen again.
I really appreciate what you've said. There should in no way be any calls for firing or ANY racism or harassment. HOWEVER doing something unintentionally ableist is similar to being unintentionally homophobic or unintentionally sexist. Speaking as a terminally ill deaf and disabled woman who loves theatre and is gay (so know the gravity of comparing the unintentional results of things I've experienced from homophobia vs. ableism vs. sexism) the fact that this is being brushed off as unintentional = okay, gives me bad vibes. Unintentional doesn't mean it isn't something serious that needs to change. Unintentional means she was expecting to grab the phone of a Bootleg in process not expecting it to be an accessibility device - and if we just allow 'unintentional' to be the excuse here it prevents any learning at all. When you eff up you feel shame in yourself, and thats why people often have extreme reactions to their own mess ups. Its important to use that fuel to put your hands up and say "I messed up" and instead of harbouring shame we should instead use it as fuel to prevent other injustices and raising awareness. I'm terminally ill and am very visibly disabled. People are horrendous, and ableism isn't seen as much of an important thing within our society than it should be. As I say, no harassment is ever okay, but learning (especially in the public sphere, my god I can only imagine) and using the press generated to raise awareness about the inaccessibility of theatre would be the best thing to do here BUT if I was being attacked to that extent I don't know if I would see that right away; because hate often makes people take cover or double down on their actions.
TLDR: Mutual respect is needed in every situation. Quite a lot of people effed up at the Theatre's side of things for something like that to happen. If someone had taken my phone (which has captioning software installed for my use) I would never go to a live show again for fear of it happening again. The poor theatre go-er did EVERYTHING right in alerting front of house; and this happens everywhere.
PLUS the whole point of working towards equality is so that disabled people don't need to say 'hey I'm disabled, grab me a ramp please' 30 days before they attend. True equity is being able to turn up at the same time as anyone else would and being able to do so in accessible way.
Its tricky but its important that these things are said. I would've sobbed and sobbed and sobbed if a performer did that to me. Its like ripping someone's ear drums out. Losing the other half of communication is terrifying in itself; but someone thinking that you're making a bootleg and exposing the accessibility device TO THE AUDIENCE outs the D/Disabled person and is pretty humiliating in itself.
I relate to Patti LuPone because I too am non equity and hate Andrew Lloyd Webber
Wasn't that feud about Sunset Boulevard?
Broadway should have a reality show
oh my god yes!
I mean there have been several
I'd be down for it if they had dramatic readings of the bitchy emails that are sent within production. So much of the drama seems to happen there!
@@booksvsmovies are you referring to the singing competitions? like the search for elle woods? or are there others?
We did. It was called Smash. 😂
The only thing I will disagree with is the idea that there has to be intention or knowledge for it to be ableist. Whether it be sexism, racism, homophobia or any other form of discrimination, I think the majority of bigotry comes from ignorance and thoughtlessness not outright malice. Attacking someone for using a hearing aid is still ableism whether the attacker knew it was a hearing aid or not, it's still something that wouldn't have happened if the individual hadn't been hard of hearing and that will make everyone who needs such a device afraid that the same might happen to them in the future. Therefore it is contributing to the disclusion of non able bodied persons whether it was intentional or not.
As soon as I heard about the Hadestown incident and Patti's tweet, my first thought was, "Can't wait to see that on Mickey Jo's channel" haha
Ive been a FOH manager for an out of state Broadway venue and even when the rows are long without a center aisle there is a dragnet for devices, to the point where we monitor the wifi and bluetooth for uploads and new connections.
Filming is not a joke, we could lose our contract with BAA if we are not diligent.
That said, we have communication with back of house regarding photography and ADA accommodations. We communicate with the performers specifically for the first 10 rows and the tier. These guidelines would have helped with Lillias, but funny enough, not Patti!
On Patti- My Husband worked on the London revival of Company. He always said how gracious, loving and kind she was. When we attended the closing night party, she gave him the biggest hug and thanked him for everything he had done. Always a warm presence.
Mostly just sad that, even 2 weeks on, still no apology from Lillias or Hadestown. It wouldn't be much, but it's heartbreaking to see a show I love so much not do just a simple thing of *apologising to the person*, even in an email or a DM.
I disagree with the idea that it’s infantilising to acknowledge how traumatic this experience could be for disabled people. Obviously punishment wouldn’t be applied based on hypotheticals so if THIS audience member is infact okay then that’s what’s important, but as someone with autism who would really benefit from having headphones on while at the theatre, this is the exact kind of horror story I’ve been terrified of happening.
Now I life In the UK as well and have a sunflower lanyard that I wear to things like this so chances are if I did wear my headphones it would be understood why, but still. The absolute fear that anyone - especially a cast member - would publicly shame me in a crowded theatre is gonna keep me from actually enjoying the show.
Like when I say that this exact situation has been my nightmare for my entire life I mean it lmao
I was watching a performer's Instagram Live a few days ago, and someone in the comments said that they wanted to come to the show, but had sensory issues and would want to wear ear protection, and wanted to know if this was OK or if it would be rude, before buying tickets. The performer was like, "Oh, of course you can wear whatever you need to, we've got people here with headphones and sometimes sunglasses, do whatever you need to do in order to enjoy the show!" but I felt so bad for everything that had made this person feel that they even had to ask.
Whether the theatre-goer was disabled or not, I think no performer should EVER yell at an audience member during a performance for something like having their phone out. This isn't a concert where you're directly interacting with the audience; there's a fourth wall, and breaking the illusion is costly for everyone else in the theatre as well. I've never thought Patti's 'who do you think you are' was a girlboss moment. Like, I understand it can be extremely frustrating to spot someone filming, but imagine if every performer did that whenever they spotted someone! It'd happen way too often. Tickets are expensive. I don't want my experience ruined just because someone else decided to get their phone out.
There's a bootleg out there of BMC Broadway, filmed from the front row, where Will Roland walks in front of the person filming after the first musical number ends and the lights go out, and tells them to turn it off. That's how it should be done if anything. Or even better, just tell a member of the staff and be done with it...
I’m glad your able to enlighten me and others like myself. In my opinion I feel bad about this because I have autism and ADHD, also I am an actress . I respect the fact other audience members might find someone recording to be offensive, however that doesn’t mean I condone othering disabled people‼️
Outstandingly thoughtful and balanced take on this complex issue. Well-done.
Why fire the cast member when the issue was most likely communication with the cast rather than Lillias herself?
I really disagree with your comment that Lillias's actions aren't ableist because they were not aware of the disability. The idea that disabled people should self identity and inform others so they don't "interrupt" or "distract" is ableist. You can be ableist without intending to be. This isn't meant to demonize Lillias, but rather acknowledge that disabilities come in a multitude of forms and require different accommodations. I really don't think we need opinions from abled people in this conversation because 1. they don't have experience or skin in the game and 2. the disabled community already has people with every condition/walk of life to provide different views. What might work for and be endorsed by people with physical disabilities may not be supported by neurodivergent people, etc.
Agreed! Not to mention that physically disabled people don’t agree with each other on this topic! My disabled friends and I don’t view this topic the same way and I think it does a disservice for able bodied people to lead the conversation. Id love to see Mickey maybe talk to a handful of disabled theater fans and get perspectives.
@@danaslitlist1 I agree -- I've seen very few of the people talking about this actually include disabled people in the conversation.
Ableism works a lot like racism. Ignorance can fuel it. You don't need to be intentionally cruel. When you believe something out of ignorance and do not seek to make a correction/broaden your horizons... Then yes. Yes you've committed this act.
If you truly believe black people cannot swim, you are racist. Pure and simple. And if you believe this and swear it up and down because "but you've never met one who could" because you live in the city and there's no place to swim... You're still racist because you're not connecting the obvious dots here and choosing to go with the racist choice instead of "well stupid maybe it's because you and your buddies never got access to learn at the city pool".
That's all still racism.
The same goes for ableism and ableist remarks. You can be a moron and be any of these things, even if you didn't mean it. There's the stupid kind and the malevolent kind.
The only input I have in this situation is isn't it super funny that so many celebrities and public figures demand privacy and respect but then they go and berate ordinary people in public settings like that for things they have no business interfering with?
Oh please. Your generalization is so ignorant.
I looked into the Patti LuPone thing when it happened and found a short interview somewhere. You're right, she'd given up Equity last April. Sounds like it was for a fairly dramatic and specific reason, but she didn't want to discuss it. The reporter checked with Equity and yes, she had given it up and would have to reapply if she wanted it back. But I can't imagine that would be a huge deal for Patti LuPone.
I'm sad that Patti LuPone spoke about it before Lillias White even apologized. I get that it was a misunderstanding, but like... She should till apologize for being so unprofessional and for any discomfort caused.
I have a lot of feelings about this. Having only really understood the context of what was going on through your video. Having really only just heard about the Hadestown incident from this video that’s the thing that’s at the forefront of my mind. Because it makes me angry. As a CODA (child of a deaf adult) and someone who spent 10 years in the interpreting field. So a total of about 30 years of advocacy in various roles. I am so mad that people are still not educated about deafness and hearing loss. There is so much nuance in the realm of deafness. There are people who are fully deaf and most likely culturally Deaf, there are people who have cochlear implants, there are people who have mild to moderate hearing loss and are considered culturally Hearing. And society at large refuses to understand this nuance and accommodate accordingly. The thing I hate about events (theater, comic cons, corporate etc,) is that when one accommodation is provided (ie a captioning device or in person interpretation) then all other needs are ignored. So say you have an event that is interpreted the event coordinators usually will say that there is no need for captioning or captioning devices because they have provided an interpreter. NOT ALL DEAF PEOPLE USE SIGN LANGUAGE, READ LIPS, OR CAN READ THE COMMON SPOKEN LANGUAGE. And the biggest gaps are systemic no one bothers to educate themselves about accessibility. In the theater they can’t even be bothered to do more than one signed performance per run. Idk how it works on Broadway but here when a tour comes to town only one or two of the performances is interpreted and I didn’t even know captioning was an option until today watching your video. In my opinion every single show should have staff interpreters for every performance. And having them should not make producers skimp on the captioning devices either and there should be workshops for actors on how to interact with a deaf audience or handle distractions in regards to any accessibility needs being met. I have more opinions on accessibility in general but this video is not the place. And I think it’s kinda gross that LuPone spoke on it without considering the fact that it definitely pulled focus from the actual issue (although no one involved should be canceled JUST EDUCATED!)
Most Broadway shows have the captioning devices, though some shorter limited runs don't. (I think the rule is they need to have them if the show is running for more than four weeks, not counting previews.) Some touring shows have captions, but both the production and the venue have to have the right systems in place for it to work -- the production to provide to captions and cues, and the venue to provide the hardware. (I know that the current tours of Frozen and DEH can do it if the venue has the hardware, but I'm not sure which others, or how many venues have it set up.)
Pretty sure the actor is busy dealing with being Black and female and plus sized in this country. Your blues ain’t like hers. She didn’t attack a person because she thought they were deaf. But Ms. White IS getting death threats and calls to be fired.
@@tananario I never said she did. I am upset that there isn’t more accessibility education out there so this type of thing doesn’t happen. I’ve seen this type of situation happen waaaay too much as a professional, a friend, a daughter, and as a someone just grabbing a cup of coffee and needing to deescalate a situation so someone didn’t get the cops called on them for being deaf. My anger comes from a place of seeing people in Power (the people with the money not the actress in the show) always choosing the convenient/cheaper route instead of choosing to create safe spaces for those with accessibility needs. It may cost more money to have an accessibility awareness workshop or pay for interpreters for every show during a run BUT it would mean the world to the deaf and hard of hearing people. They wouldn’t be called out due to ignorance or they wouldn’t have to shell out 100 dollars for a ticket to a show where they will get nothing out of it except seeing their kid light up at being at their favorite musical because there’s no interpreter available (remember captions may not work for everybody).
I’m hearing but because I’ve had to be an advocate for my father my entire life I am always aware of when services are lacking, I work in the event business now and I’m always casing spaces for accessibility and where there is lack of access. And again this is in one perspective in a much larger conversation about accessibility for people with all kinds of unaccommodated needs due to disability.
The actress shouldn’t be fired or subjected to racism, fat phobia, and misogynoir The entire culture needs to be shifted towards inclusion.
And while I’m here actors/actresses shouldn’t call out audience members, and all broadway/ west end shows should be recorded and distributed legally because screw classism and gate-keeping of the arts.
I agree with this - I’m autistic and have struggled with this too
@@daviddelara7158 I have met so many people who would benefit from captioning but because interpreters have been provided for an event the project managers refuse to pay extra for captioning services. We need both!
As a theater goer I hate when people are holding up their cameras! It blocks my view, is distracting and makes me angry. The house should manage this, but they can't/don't which makes me more angry. My ticket cost a lot of money and this disrespect makes me livid. I am usually relieved when an actor calls out this behavior because it relieves my tension. The actors should not have to do this, but at least someone is doing something! Phones to check blood sugar & captioning devises are necessary and can be used discreetly. Theaters and producers need to manage this issue.
I was thinking about some recent incidents I’ve seen and how impossible the job is for ushers if the rule breakers lack all shame or basic good will. What some people don’t know when they see a clip of an actor stopping a show is that the atmosphere near the audience member has already been distracting and tense for some time. Loud exchanges, pushing and shoving, and demands to leave were involved the last couple times I was near an audience member confronted by an usher.
I disagree that you require knowledge of the disability or malicious intent to do something ableist. I think it was an honest mistake and Lilias White should not be fired, but I think it's part of a systemic problem in which performers and the general public just aren't aware or made aware of issues involving disability. I appreciate and agree with everything else you said though!
You're so unbelievably knowledgeable. Love it.
Just wanted to say I was at a performance of Hadestown last week in the mezzanine and there was a couple in the front row with their feet up in front of the lights and wires and the ushers just kept coming and flashing lights at them and doing nothing else. The couple was very distracting for everyone in the mezzanine and Im sure the cast as well but they were not removed and continued this throughout the show. If this is how the ushers handle these situations I can see why actors feel the need to take it into their own hands.
This has got to be the weirdest week ever for that Hadestown theatergoer, I hope they're doing okay!
I met Patti LuPone outside the Guilgud Theatre a few years ago when the most recent production of Company first opens on the West End. Met her at the stage door and asked her to sign my copy of her autobiography. What a thrilling evening that was. So glad I had the nerve to talk to her considering the turn of recent events. I will remember our exchange forever. She was so lovely to me. ❤️
My opinion on bootlegging is that if you want to stop it have a professional recording. I'm still hurt I never got to see the OG Wicked cast that I heard all the time because I had the album but never got to see the show...
I ended up seeing shows because I had see the bootleg online. I honestly wasn't sure if I'd like the show enough to justify the crazy prices (plus traveling from NI over to London). If people just want to watch the pro recording, then they can do that (like Hamilton on Disney+), but for people who love the theater, they will always strive to see things live. Plus professional recording opens theater up to a much wider audience, from disabilities, elderly, less mobile (getting into central London can be quite a hike!), those with kids (needing to pause shows, etc) and those of us who live within the UK, but a flight away from London and usually not on the "UK tour" schedules for most shows!
Because, and I quote "but we want them in our seats!" Except this would be additional revenue for us. Hi. Disability took me out of acting. And bootlegs help future actors get acquainted with current actors. They're really helpful. I'm a pro-bootleg actor. We're not all dicks. Live theater is currently gatekeeping and ableist right now.
Wake up Babe, another Mickey Jo 'Broadway Drama' video just dropped.
“you need to stop waking me up when your favourite niche youtuber drops a video. im sleeping at my moms tonight.”
@@neobridgey How dare you represent my relationship so accurately.
@@RachelMay1989 BAHAHA
Thank you thank you thank you for highlighting that disabled people face so many barriers to enjoying the theatre. Thank you for pointing out society's tendency to infantilize the disabled. I am a disabled theatre enthusiast who uses a wheelchair and service animal, and I have found theatre distressingly inaccessible and exclusionary as an adult, from many angles. Financially, availability of seating, assistance animal law etc.
I don't agree with the backlash against Lillias. I do think Front of House needs to make casts aware that accessibility devices and accommodations are offered by the theatre and they may see them being utilized. I think ushers need better training, as someone who has faced discrimination during shows. I think callouts from the stage, for any actor, are less than advisable. If nothing else, because it breaks immersion and can take the entire cast out of "the moment".
We need to start talking about what accessibility in theatre REALLY means and working toward making theatre as inclusive as its reputation would have you believe. There's more work to be done here.
The racist epithets used against Lillias are wrong. She's been nothing but graceful, receptive to learning, and apologetic. People need to let her learn, accept her apology as the disabled patron has done, and move on.
I thought I had heard that Patti was essentially intending to quit Broadway anyway - I think it was inferred via a Company interview where she talked about "going out on a good one". She likely will continue shorter commitments for TV and film.
Yes Ms. Patti gave up her Equity card in June/July when Company closed. The reason was $$$. The Equity folks were taking off the previous cap on high earners such as Patti, and she believed this was both a personal affront to her and also a negative for long-term efforts to attract high paid stars to Broadway (Sweeney Todd and Josh Groban, anyone). I read a recent article about it this weekend.
I am a huge fan of Ms. Patti's although I never got to see her in-person on Broadway. When folks reach her level of stature I believe they do have a voice and influence, but it is not up to her alone to deal with questions of ableism as a white woman.
@@lindaweight6176 I'm not sure what being a white woman has to do with being ableist. Don't you mean as someone who isn't disabled?
Yeah lol years ago she said war paint would be her final show. And then Company would be it. But I guess she decided to capitalize on the drama lol
Andrew Lloyd Webber should cast patti in Bad Cinderella to add to the drama
i was recently diagnosed with meniere’s disease which is an inner ear disorder that will eventually make me lose my hearing. theatre is my home away from home. if i wasnt able to enjoy it anymore, i would be heartbroken. bringing the accessibility options for people to light is important. but the racism coming out of this is utterly disgusting.
Lillias shouldn't be fired. As a person with a disability who goes to live theatre I don't expect my situation to always be understood by everyone I meet right away and it's very easy for honest mistakes to be blown out of proportion. Can we just leave this is a chance to learn and not be so punitive? Also listen to the disabled person directly affected? That would be nice.
I agree. The calls for her to be fired are absurd (and mostly racist), and I've seen almost none of them coming from disabled people -- it's all been from people who claim to be "supporting" us but really are just grasping an opportunity to be terrible. There's a whole lot of education and discussion that could come from this, but it's been entirely overshadowed by the inevitable racist backlash, and now by Patti LuPone's need to grab the spotlight.
According to the NY Times, LuPone left Equity over the summer primarily because the union removed its cap on dues for high end earners (Equity's dues structure is tied to earnings, so the more you earn, the higher your dues; there used to be a cap on those earnings which has now been removed). Patti is most definitely one of the high earners in Equity, and she has resigned from the union because her dues went up.
I very much disagree that just because they didn’t know that that person was using an aid means that they can’t be ableist. That is not true. Not considering people who are differently abled and wether or not they were using a device to help them is ableist in and of it self because it completely fails to consider that disabled people exist, and implies that disabled people only deserve consideration if they scream and shout about their disability. If they don’t, then it’s their own fault for not having things be accessible or people be considerate.
Furthermore as a disabled person this has hit a nerve. This summer I was going to a concert and beforehand I was reading a lot of stories from other people about their experiences going to concerts and the frequency of bands and singers yelling at people in the audience for not standing. This gave me so much anxiety, the thought of being yelled at because they think you’re being disrespectful but really you just can’t stand for very long or at all was terrifying! The culture of ‘yell first ask questions later’ is so toxic, and yes, ableist. I hope to live in a world where people give others the benefit of the doubt.
TLDR: assuming that everyone have the same body and same abilities IS ableist
!!! This!
Up until this event occurred, I was not aware that tech exists for live captions. That's great! But it also creates a challenge - how do theatre staff distinguish between someone using caption apps and someone doing bootleg or non-permitted photography? From doing public events, I know that unethical people will exploit every accessibility upgrade for personal gain. I can just see a bootlegger switching over to a captioning app when called out by an usher. It's going to take some experience on the ground (and in the aisles) to create global accessibility without enabling disruptive behavior.
Most of the time disabled audience members will let the staff know a head of time (in my experience and with my friends). It definitely can lead to people taking advantage of the system but that’s unfortunately a common theme with able bodied people taking over disability accessibility accommodations for their own benefit.
It might be possible to do that while recording an audio bootleg, but it would be really obvious if someone was recording video while claiming to be using a captioning app, since they'd have to be holding the phone up. The GalaPro app needs to connect to a dedicated wifi network at the theatre, and will only work with the phone in airplane mode, but I'm not sure if it disables other apps (like the camera) at the same time.
are the captioning apps bright like a phone though? that would be distracting for nearby audience members
In this case, the audience member was given the device by the theatre staff, so the app doesn't necessarily apply to this specific situation
@@schmauften The screen is dimmed, and on the ones that are just captioning devices (rather than using the person's phone), it's the kind of screen where you can only really see it if you're looking at the right angle. (Which is a common complaint about them -- you've got to hold your arm up in front of you for the whole show to keep it readable. I've seen lots of suggestions that there should be some way to clip it onto the back of the seat in front of you or something.)
It’s easy to see what went wrong here. FOH maybe forgot to tell stage management about the audience member, or they did but SM forgot to tell the actors. Either way, Lillias absolutely should’ve kept her mouth shut; it’s not her job to talk directly to audience members during a show (downright unprofessional). As a fellow hard of hearing audience member, who has experienced ableist microagressions her entire life, I cannot being myself to completely be on Lillias’ side. It’s horrible that people are being racist towards her, and yes her mistake was honest, but it had a damaging effect.
I’m an actress, you don’t break that third wall, ever. I thought it was wrong when Patti did it, and I still do. Now hearing Patti knew about the photographer after the fact makes it even worse. Let the staff handle the audience, and let the show go on.
Oh because the staff and Broadway theaters is always so on top of things and protects the audiences from disturbances, right? I’ve seen offenses happening feet from ushers who do nothing.
I LOVE 😍 how Mickey Jo tells literal Drama Queens to stop the drama!! 😂 😂
I work FOH at a musical theatre in The Netherlands and every time we catch someone we get to shine a torch in their face, best feeling ever 👌🏻the ensuing disapproving head shakes of the people sitting next to them also give me life
I was in the audience when Patti made the comment. She is an actor. She stopped the show because the individual in the audience refused to stop what they were/were not doing. Once the comment was made Patti went back into character and performed. Yes, we pay money to see the show. We should not be there to take selfies. It disrupts other individuals from seeing the show. Instead they have to see someone's hand. Yet, this happens beyond Broadway. I have been to other events where it is always happens as you, not doing the selfie, has your viewing interrupted because they need to get the picture and move away. Patti was right.
Clicked on this as fast as I could 😮
I remember the phone incident 😅
She is also my favourite Mrs Lovett
I do disagree with your idea that someone can only be ableist if they are aware the incident they are objecting to involves disability. Like if someone's walking funny and someone else mocks them for talking funny it doesn't matter if the first person just had a rock in their shoe or had cerebral palsy, it's still ableist to mock that. For a teacher to yell at a student who isn't paying attention is ableist whether the student is just zoned out or is zoned out due to untreated ADHD the teacher wasn't aware of. (Zoning out isn't the best thing to do ofc but it happens and yelling is never an appropriate reaction to it.) My parents getting constantly annoyed at me "not listening" was ableist even when none of us knew what audio processing disorder was and that I had it. Getting annoyed at someone for not looking you in the eye is ableist even if you don't know they have autism. Ignorance is a good reason for someone to not understand someone else's actions and misinterpret them (often as laziness or a lack of care or blatant rudeness), but that does not negate the harm it causes and the fact that it is targeting otherness which is often caused by disability. It's completely inevitable that we will all be ableist in some ways at different points in our lives, what matters is that we recognize when we are, apologize for any harm caused, and try and learn how to do better. It's better we dislike *being* ableist more than being *called* ableist, so I think it's important we call people's attention to actions they've done that are ableist so they can understand and not make the same mistake in the future. Many examples of being ableist are perfectly innocent, too, so it's not like it's even always a negative reflection on your character that that have occurred. Maybe you invited your war vet friend with PTSD to a fireworks show because that's a fun thing to do. Yeah it's a little unthinking, but the intention was to have a nice day with your friend which isn't bad. idk, hopefully you can see what I'm trying to say.
When Patti enters the chat, you know you've got another 'named my swimming pool after ALW' episode...
I love that she's so damn outspoken.
We need more of that, especially within the theatre industry.
@MickeyJoTheatre As a disabled theatre goer: I ABSOLUTELY think it is possible that a big reason that Lillian White is being attached is because it was brought to our attention that the theatre goer was disabled and, as you said, people with disabilities are thought of by most able bodied people (a large part of the population) as fragile beings that need to be protected at all costs. I do not think this is grounds for termination of employment because while it was probably VERY humiliating for the theatre goer, Lillian White was trying to uphold the rules of her work place which she thought were being disrespected. SHE WAS NOT BEING AN ABLEIST (someone that treats another with prejudice because of a disability) because she didn’t know the person was disabled, nor did she know that the device was being used for said disability.
IS IT THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE ACTORS TO CALL OUT A BOOTLEGGER MID PERFORMANCE?: No. The actors job is to tell a story that thousands of people paid good money to see. I think stopping the performance to call out ONE person is very disrespectful to the rest of the audience. Like you said, there are plenty of other people that work at the theatre to deal with this issue.
*Side Note: I really appreciate that you acknowledged that it must be hard to go to a place not initially built for somebody with a disability. UnFortunately our society, while definitely much better than 30 years ago when Americans with disability act was passed, still has a long way to go to be 100% accessible so it’s nice seeing an able-bodied young man address that.
Speaking as a disabled person, and one with anxiety who definitely would have not handled something like what happened at Hadestown well (emotionally, I still would have done my best to keep to standard theatre etiquette) I don't think Lillias should be fired. If that person's phone was taken away then I'd say they're entitled to a refund as their ability to experience the show was affected. If not then I think an apology and potentially some free merch should suffice.
The real issue is management and production are not doing an adequate job of communicating with the performers and audiences. The actors shouldn't have to "police" the audience and audience members should communicate that they need technical aids to enjoy the show, especially if it is not an accessible performance. It takes a few seconds to communicate this to the house and a quick note from the SM to the cast keeps everyone in the loop. These are not hard things.
There are a lot of reasons to have your phone in the theater. However, talking to the people around you is not okay and is distracting.
I know bootlegging is wrong for various reasons. However, I am so thankful people do this because we would never see certain actors in shows. Those of us who do not live near NYC and can’t get to NYC to see shows nor get tickets so that we can see the actors who originated these roles, thank goodness bootleggers provide this. I’m so glad that we can see Hamilton with the people who originated these roles, but this is rare, probably because it’s so expensive to film a Broadway show. Being able to see Dear Evan Hansen, for example, with the actors who originated these roles, is wonderful thanks to the bootleggers. Bootlegs are not the greatest quality, but at least it’s something. It does not prevent us from going to see the touring group when they come around because we want to see it live.
But Broadway bitches about how the majority of people in the US don’t care about Broadway or the Tony awards, this is why. Most of us are not able to see the people who originated the roles on Broadway and almost all of these will not be filmed. It alienates most people.
Patti gave herself the right to discipline her audience loudly more than 10 years ago and continued doing it until the pandemic and found everyone cheering for what she did without any respect to those who go to the theater to escape their anxiety which can easily be triggered by such behaviors from the star of the show. Patti’s behavior opened the doors for every Diva to do the same. I remember attending Kinky Boots few years ago and the understudy who was playing Lola stopped the production and started screaming at an audience member who was texting, that behavior changed the energy of the room to the worse for the rest of the show. Theaters are managed by ppl who are in charge of the whole customer experience and its their job to discipline those who break the rules from the audience, performers should report an incident but never act upon it. I love Patti and I saw her twice on Broadway years ago but I’m glad she decided to quit. Its time for her to take her ADHD medications and learn how to control her nerves and behave.
When i saw cats in korea it was in english so they had screens with subtitles on both sides of the stage. Didnt take away from the performance at all and sometimes i even used them myself when i didnt understand what was happening. Curious on what people feel about something similar being implemented in broadway/other theatre performances
As a former Patti LuPone fan, it is a shame to see that she has no idea where the line between diva and nasty person lies. I have seen her in interviews & her social media content and she thinks her vicious attacks on everyone & anybody are humorous. I, as well as some other theater fans I know, am not saddened by her decision, though I am sure she has done this to get more attention for herself and will be back. Ms. LuPone should learn that humility and modesty are attractive qualities.
I don't think she should be fired, but she should 100% apologize and steps need to be taken in Broadway to help actors and other staff learn how to recognize disabled devices like caption recorders.
In regards to whether it was okay that Patti ever burst out like that on stage, I'll be honest I think it was unprofessional. I was never one to like that kind of attitude, especially since I am a supporter of bootlegging shows due to accessibility. Broadway remains unaccessible to the vast majority of people, and until official recordings become a common thing I will continue to be okay with people recording. Just like don't be so obvious about it, theres quietly recording from ur little corner and then theres waving ur giant phone with the flash on which is just annoying.
Thank you for a) a very balanced, fair and calm exposition and b) for saying 'auditoria' :)
With regards to Pati giving up her equity card. My current acting teacher is in his late 50’s early 60’s and if you ask people of that age in the industry what it means to them, they will tell you it means a lot. A lot of hard work, dedicated, time, effort and so much more. This was the only way you could get a job back then and you could only get one if you had a job. Additionally, you had to have so many hours of work to be entitled to it. For all these reasons and more, the equity card is of great importance to them and, for me, Patti giving it up is very much a hard thing to do and is very symbolic as she worked her whole life to get and keep it. That’s just my take let me know what you think 👍
I love going to the theatre and the closets that I have ever been to something like this was when I was at school of rock on it’s uk tour I was telling my mum what was happening on the stage because she is blind and so the person sitting behind me (who sometimes was singing along during the show) thought that it would be kind to tell me off for whispering what was happening to my mum and that she can see what’s on the stage which really annoyed me so I told her that she was blind and she said that if she expects someone to talk through the show she shouldn’t go it was awful.
Broadway theatres have audio description headphones for this. More places definitely need to get those.
@@callalily3994 I have heard about these and so has she but she would prefer to see live theatre without one of those headsets
I was at the Lion King in London a few years back, where a large family were translating the show from English into another lanugage for all the children (like 7-8 maybe - 2 on either side of each adult at least!) and it was horribly distracting given the price we had paid. I personally didn't say anything to FOH staff, but I know a lot of people around us were also unhappy, and after the interval they didn't come back. Not sure if they were asked to leave or just seated else where. I would be very unhappy if someone was constantly talking, even at a whisper, throughout a show I had paid a lot of money to go and see.
That being said, I do think more shows, including tours, should have more acessibly options - like relaxed shows, sign interpertations and/or captioning and audio description, which makes the show accessibly to more people, but also makes everyone aware that if you are going to see this show, it is a "relaxed performance" and so accompanying music will be lower, house lights will be on (at little), there will be less severe lighting/sound in the show and if there is some noise from audience members or moving around, it is expected and okay. Or allow people to book the boxes, without the extra costs, so that you could assist your mum without disturbing other audience members.
@@LovelyLawla this is true and where I normally see shows in the Belfast this does be an option but for this show it was on during the week.
My only qualm with this coverage is that ableism, like any form of prejudice, doesn’t require that any person or institution has malice or intent. The institution has built up a deep seated anger at audience members with ang kind of device, naturally alienating those using devices to help them enjoy the show. It’s institutional ableism, even if unintentional. Ignorance isn’t an excuse.
It’s always surprising for me to hear about these situations… I’m a professional stage actor, and I’ve been performing for over a decade now. Across all of the theaters that I’ve worked in, big and small, touring across the United States, and more, I’ve never been in a situation, where somebody looking at their phone in the audience has been a major distraction to my performance. Even if I am all the way down stage, there’s no real scenario that them looking at their phone would stop me from being able to do my job. I’ve been in situations where loud noises has been incredibly disruptive, but part of our job is being able to separate that from what we’re doing. We might corpse for a second, but we get right back on the horse generally. It’s sort of the same feeling that standup comics give, that the audience is a part of it even though it’s been pre-rehearsed, and once the freight train starts, it’s very difficult to stop or derail it, I think it’s very surprising for me to read that these old heads, who have worked at theaters that I have worked at, are so distracted by such small things….. feels more diva than necessary. “Watch all of my performance!!” People have anxiety or all sorts of reasons they need to check their phone. Sometimes people get overstimulated. These performances are long, and post covid, life threatening. People paid for tickets, they should be able to do what they want. It’s like Shakespeare’s time. Idk, forgive them cause they know not what they do
I don’t think the performer deserved any racist backlash but find it interesting that you say “she’s not ableist because she didn’t know” when I’ve definitely heard the argument that being ignorant of disabled issue is ableism. Same thing with racist issues etc.
Not sure how Patti really works and none of us do. Her hatred of playing the of Eva Peron is known universally! But no one seems to have asked Elaine Paige the original London and stage original in the role. Would love to hear Elaine's view of her experience in the production. Xx Patti always seems to be on a war path!!
Ps on bootlegging....
How the hell did the get cameras into theatre's in the 1980s????
A lot of the "bootlegs" from the nineties and earlier seem like they were filmed by someone involved with the show and meant to be seen just by the people working on the show, so that they could see what was working and what wasn't and so on -- I've seen a bunch that you could tell were from when the show was still in previews, because there were some staging elements or lines or whatever that were removed before the official opening. Then as time went on, those tapes or films ended up in someone else's hands (like if the original person died or whatever), and that person had no real obligation to keep them private.
@@callalily3994 yep that totally makes sense. I have heard every Broadway production has been recorded over the years and is a library archive
@@hefinrosser8685 Yes, the NY Public Library has an archive of nearly all Broadway shows since about 1970, and a lot of off-Broadway and regional and others. You need to actually go to the library in person to watch them, though, and they're pretty diligent about making sure people don't record them as they're viewing. (You need to get a special collections access card to see them, but anyone over 18 can get one of those by just filling out some forms saying you agree to all their rules.) They usually film each show a week or two before it closes -- often leads to people in the audience posting online about, "I see cameras! Are they making a proshot?" but then it turns out that it was just the library.
Just wanted to ask if you saw her carpet interview with Variety for Netflix’s The School for Good and Evil?? She got specific about really big issues in the industry that she has become more than frustrated with.
The Hadestown situation is sad. Hopefully it will lead to clearer restrictions for shows, as well as rules as to who can call out audience members for making bootlegs and how to prevent people from illegally recording musicals in general. That being said, I hope this situation moves on expediently, as I really want to know how the new Hermes sounds in (hopefully) a new cast recording.
Honestly I don’t agree that ableism implies malice. For example, a new building that doesn’t have a lift in it. That’s ableist, whether the people who designed it meant it to be or not. And it’s not for abled people to decide it’s not ableist, just like I, as a white person, don’t get to decide that something is not racist. Also, calling Patti LuPone able bodied may not be entirely accurate. She’s 73, and often people become disabled as they age. You mentioned her having a bed in her dressing room so she could rest, despite her role not being particularly physically demanding. That, to me, suggests she may be disabled. (For people who don’t know, disability is defined by a condition that limits daily activities.)
THANK YOUUUUUU
I don’t think any actor should be breaking character to yell at an audience member, or photographer 😂 unless it’s an emergency situation
Patti also wigged out on an audience member at Company recently who wasn't wearing a mask with the same angry "Who do you think you are?"
Agree with your general take on this. White made a mistake. Make like Elsa and let it go. Regarding LuPone, It was reported in the NYT that she resigned from Actors Equity in summer, after COMPANY closed. She and other high earners on Broadway have been peeved with the union recently after AE removed the cap on union dues for high earners. Apparently, AE used to only take 2.5% on the first $300K earned per annum (so essentially $7,500), but now it's 2.5% regardless of how much you earn. LuPone appears to only be mentioning it now as a non-sequitur in expressing annoyance that she's being retroactively criticized for previously lauded behavior because folks are forcing a comparison with the White situation.
It would be great if every Broadway show had a filmed play for disabled people to watch/pay to view if they don't want us to come to the theater/won't make it accessible for us
Doesn't even have to be with closeups like Hamilton just stick a camera center balcony for one show to make sure we don't miss anything and keep it HD and people will stop bootlegging because we got a legit one from the company in HD with official sound
Her Variety interview on the red carpet elaborated on this a bit more! Doesnt seem to be solely due to the present moment and more so broader Broadway developments she dislikes
i would disagree that lilias' action was not ableist because she didn't know what was going on. i don't speak for all disabled people, but allow me to gently suggest that assuming that someone using an assistive device is doing something else, something nefarious, whether you know what the device is or not, IS a form of ableism. that doesn't mean that lilias ever meant to humiliate a disabled audience member, but it is still important to be cognizant of where our actions and attitude fit into the culture of exclusion and (sometimes willful, sometimes not) ignorance about disability.
at the same time, non-black people weighing in here do have to question our harshness in this case and call out racist harassment. people who stir up racist vitriol against a black woman for ANY reason are not the allies.
I recently traveled to Broadway (and actually saw Hadestown during that time). I was honestly kind of frustrated and disappointed with my experience due to everything that you have just talked about. I remember when I saw Chicago that the ushers were honestly very harsh and rude about this (this also applied when I saw Music Man). I understand that they have a job to do and are trying to get people who are recording the performances. I believe they need to figure out a better system for this since and maybe better communication as well, especially in regards to the Music Man. How the Music Man ends is interesting. They go ahead and drop the curtain and bring it back up where Hugh Jackman and Sutton Foster appear in white marching band outfits where they perform a tap number. I was not able to enjoy this performance since most of the ushers were flashing lights and ripping phones out of people's hands. I get why the ushers were doing this, but I am aware that most of the time people are allowed to take pictures and record the performers bow. Most of the time, when someone sees the curtain fall they would think that it is the end of the performance and they want to capture their bow. It is just a challenging task to take on.
Just saw that Netflix dropped their lawsuit against Barlow and Bear, btw👀💅🏽
WHAAAAT?!!!
@@ce67790 In all likelihood, they settled out of court, and made it all confidential so that all they could, which would mean that all they could publicly announce was that the suit was dropped.
I'm an anglophile and a theater lover, so I subbed and liked! Also I love Hadestown, so it caught my eye immediately.