I'm glad finally someone mentioned that it's 50/50! Since Linear-Phase first started rearing it's head, a large portion of engineers have been saying it's essential, while other saying it destroys the mix, finally someone says use your ears and make a decision - like how all audio engineering should start imho!
Love your channel for learning audio engineering and mastering. You make genuine content, and appear to have much experience and thus knowledge about all these things. Big thumbs up!
If you use the software sonarworks for acoustic conditioning of the room, in its advanced mode in linear phase makes the same effect with your mixes, in the kick you hear that kind of sub sweep before the attack kick, if you change it to minimum linear phase, the drum is heard as it should sound without that sweeping effect.
wait, what's the solution then? If you don't high pass most things, the low-end goes of the charts and it sounds bad. Any workaround so that many no-latency eqs don't mess up the phases in a mix?
The key is definitely listening in context. Normal EQ possible drawback of phase smearing vs Linear EQ possible drawback of pre-ringing... which poison to swallow? DDMF's LP10 EQ has "variable phase" so you can fine-tune the compromise, for nerds desiring ultimate flexibility. Pretty neat. ddmf.eu/lp10-linear-phase-equalizer-plugin/
Could you put a gate on the kick? pre ringing is annoying but it seems very low in volume could a gate quite easily get rid of it? Genuine question not trying to be clever.
I come back to this video after checking the MAAT thEQRed, claiming that it works in the tima domain so no transient smearing appears. Can anyone explain this? I wonder if there's any other plugin developer into that.
The most mentioned uses for linear phase EQ are multi-micked instruments and mastering. Especifically in mastering is only used to to narrow cuts when there are resonances, but let's be honest, if there are resonances (unless they're intentional) the mix must be fixed before sending it to get mastered. In the other case sometimes there are other ways with normal EQs, it's more about testing and hearing. This video is a good example: th-cam.com/video/Vagwy7gvPrw/w-d-xo.html
Fwuzeem Go back and watch the video. He explained why pre-ringing occurs. It’s a processing artifact that has nothing to do with what the content of the source file is.
So how is the noise-to-signal ratio on that phase linear kick drum? Do you actually _hear_ that pre-ringing in the mix? You _do_ , however clearly hear a muddy bottom end if you do _not_ high pass your acoustic tracks. I have _so_ much low end rumble on my mic tracks (yes, I am using suspension, _and_ a plop filter, _and_ I am careful not to tap the rhythm on the carpeted floor during recording - and I *still* get tons of rumble) that I'd *much* rather filter out to enhance the transparency of my mixes. Choosing the lesser of two evils should be a no-brainer: go for the lesser one.
Recently discovering phasing problems and wonder how many times when I heard (synths usually) odd dynamics jumping allover the stereo spectrum was the phasing problem. I kind of felt that it has to do with waveforms interraction but I couldn't put my finger on it.
I was hearing a high frequency ring. Couldn't tell if it was what you were talking about at he beginning, or if it was at the end because it was looping, but it was almost "clicking" off, so I'm wondering if it was at the tail.
Would you make a follow-up video about FFT filters? I think they don't mess with the phase of the track, so in practice they are linear phase EQs, but they are much different from linear-phase FIR filters under the hood. They use fourier transforms to convert the audio into the frequency domain and apply the curve there before converting it back into audio. This is a fundamentally different type of EQ algorithm than IIR or FIR. Funnily enough, I think Reaper's ReaFIR eq is actually FFT not FIR. Same with Audacity's EQ. Also, there are FFT modes on the LSP (Linux Studio Plugins) EQs. I don't think FFT filters will pre-ring or post-ring, nor affect the phase, correct me if I'm wrong, I want to hear all about it. When I look up info about FFT filters, it's usually just about the mathematics of fourier transforms, not even related to audio processing. The availability of info about this is lacking.
Could it be possible that at maximum "quality" setting the actual cutoff frequency is higher? The last part of the tail of the kick would be lets say.. 50 hz down to 20hz pure sine.. if you highpass that out yes the kick will appear shorter in time? I've always noticed that Highpassing on a linear phase eq has always been a drastic way to kill the subs on a master even down at 20 hz. I take it that it because of the pre-ring?
I was so happy when i found this "artifact" a coupel of years ago. I heard this "effect" on kicks on a coupel of metal productions. I just love this back sucking effect on some productions. I remember I tried different compressor settings and other stuff to mimik this brilliant kick sound but everyting faild until one day "Bingo" linear fase on max setting. Yeeeha naild it :)
heres how you use (and must use) linear phase. Tweak it, THEN RENDER. then REMOVE IT/DISABLE IT. thats the only way you can remove the latency. but for highpassing lin phase sounds better. its just the case. at least in mastering. but when using lin phase you HAVE TO RENDER AFTER...... then disable.. then move back into time + remove pre-ring from the audio PEACE
Simply blind testing I really doubt you could tell the difference as long as the two results are played back at the same db level. Take any effect, turn it up to 11, and you are bound to get something you did not want. In all the cases you present, simply turning down the effect or not using at all is the solution, so basically learn how to use your ears to set effect levels. You can't hear scopes, and graphic depictions of waveform phase. If you can't hear it, if you can turn it down. You going in circles.
So much cirurgical overanalysing. I think as long as you're not a top-notch mixing & mastering engineer you shouldn't bother too much. For music producers it doesn't really matter to have this not really recognizable pre-ringing effect.
I'm glad finally someone mentioned that it's 50/50! Since Linear-Phase first started rearing it's head, a large portion of engineers have been saying it's essential, while other saying it destroys the mix, finally someone says use your ears and make a decision - like how all audio engineering should start imho!
I think the linear phase exaggerated a high-pitched blip at the end of the kick.
Love your channel for learning audio engineering and mastering. You make genuine content, and appear to have much experience and thus knowledge about all these things. Big thumbs up!
If you use the software sonarworks for acoustic conditioning of the room, in its advanced mode in linear phase makes the same effect with your mixes, in the kick you hear that kind of sub sweep before the attack kick, if you change it to minimum linear phase, the drum is heard as it should sound without that sweeping effect.
I’ve seen this happen to my kicks before and never realized why. Thanx!
3:01 the best explanation of how pre ringing sounds!
Theres a video from Fab filter explaining Linear Phase by Dan Worrall. He explains very well whats happening and the benefits of linear phase.
Man, you are competent and funny, which is a nice combination. Cheers from Germany!
Seen a few of these now, wasn't sure what to make of it but you're a bit of a genius.
Had no clue what the actual difference was before this video. Thank you.
Fascinating! I never realized that there would be the sine lead-in before the attack.
Man, you're doing a great job! Such a great content!
Like this new short videos filled with the most important content and continuing it in another video.
I prefer post ringing artifacts in my mixes.
Thank you very much. Your explanation is the best final drop after the official Dan Worall's video on FF channel.
Fantastic video!! I'm kind of addicted to your vids.
Good description and examples... would have been great, though, to audition the unaffected wave file before the test.
Very interesting. Thank you. I always was and am sceptical about linear phase. ;)
Thanks for posting this. Short and simple but good info.
These amazing video's are the reason I subscribed, thanks man!!
wait, what's the solution then? If you don't high pass most things, the low-end goes of the charts and it sounds bad. Any workaround so that many no-latency eqs don't mess up the phases in a mix?
""Thumbs down", lmao no care in the world for haters, you inspire me man
The key is definitely listening in context. Normal EQ possible drawback of phase smearing vs Linear EQ possible drawback of pre-ringing... which poison to swallow?
DDMF's LP10 EQ has "variable phase" so you can fine-tune the compromise, for nerds desiring ultimate flexibility. Pretty neat. ddmf.eu/lp10-linear-phase-equalizer-plugin/
Great. I lived with myths! Thx
Dank! Weer wat geleerd!
I prefer the low shelf cut over highpass ones , sounds more natural imo
Keyboard heroes 😂😂🤣🤣😹😹 this made me laugh so much you’re so awesome 🤘🏻
Could you put a gate on the kick? pre ringing is annoying but it seems very low in volume could a gate quite easily get rid of it? Genuine question not trying to be clever.
I come back to this video after checking the MAAT thEQRed, claiming that it works in the tima domain so no transient smearing appears. Can anyone explain this? I wonder if there's any other plugin developer into that.
I’m huge fan of auto generated captions
Wouldn't having a gate on the kick to cut out the low volume pre-ringing fix this?
but why is the waveform of the first kick so much longer....did the linear phase eat the sustain in order to fuel the pre-ringing?
Rad video man. Good info
The most mentioned uses for linear phase EQ are multi-micked instruments and mastering. Especifically in mastering is only used to to narrow cuts when there are resonances, but let's be honest, if there are resonances (unless they're intentional) the mix must be fixed before sending it to get mastered.
In the other case sometimes there are other ways with normal EQs, it's more about testing and hearing. This video is a good example: th-cam.com/video/Vagwy7gvPrw/w-d-xo.html
Thanks skrillex 😄
Cover more than just kick drum. Is there pre ringing on just a vocal track? What about the full master bus?
Fwuzeem Go back and watch the video. He explained why pre-ringing occurs. It’s a processing artifact that has nothing to do with what the content of the source file is.
In general should you use linear phase mode when mastering? I was advised in a Reddit thread to do so but this video suggests not
Very interesting and good to know. Thank you!
Who knew that every live sound engineer has been doing everything wrong for the past 45 years.
So how is the noise-to-signal ratio on that phase linear kick drum? Do you actually _hear_ that pre-ringing in the mix? You _do_ , however clearly hear a muddy bottom end if you do _not_ high pass your acoustic tracks. I have _so_ much low end rumble on my mic tracks (yes, I am using suspension, _and_ a plop filter, _and_ I am careful not to tap the rhythm on the carpeted floor during recording - and I *still* get tons of rumble) that I'd *much* rather filter out to enhance the transparency of my mixes. Choosing the lesser of two evils should be a no-brainer: go for the lesser one.
Recently discovering phasing problems and wonder how many times when I heard (synths usually) odd dynamics jumping allover the stereo spectrum was the phasing problem.
I kind of felt that it has to do with waveforms interraction but I couldn't put my finger on it.
I was hearing a high frequency ring. Couldn't tell if it was what you were talking about at he beginning, or if it was at the end because it was looping, but it was almost "clicking" off, so I'm wondering if it was at the tail.
I use Lin Phase only on vocals or elements with harsh resonances to tame and never for HPass or LPass.
Would you make a follow-up video about FFT filters? I think they don't mess with the phase of the track, so in practice they are linear phase EQs, but they are much different from linear-phase FIR filters under the hood. They use fourier transforms to convert the audio into the frequency domain and apply the curve there before converting it back into audio. This is a fundamentally different type of EQ algorithm than IIR or FIR. Funnily enough, I think Reaper's ReaFIR eq is actually FFT not FIR. Same with Audacity's EQ. Also, there are FFT modes on the LSP (Linux Studio Plugins) EQs. I don't think FFT filters will pre-ring or post-ring, nor affect the phase, correct me if I'm wrong, I want to hear all about it. When I look up info about FFT filters, it's usually just about the mathematics of fourier transforms, not even related to audio processing. The availability of info about this is lacking.
would Rx remove the linear phase artifact?
Should I use a linear phase EQ on the master?
Could it be possible that at maximum "quality" setting the actual cutoff frequency is higher? The last part of the tail of the kick would be lets say.. 50 hz down to 20hz pure sine.. if you highpass that out yes the kick will appear shorter in time? I've always noticed that Highpassing on a linear phase eq has always been a drastic way to kill the subs on a master even down at 20 hz. I take it that it because of the pre-ring?
The tail is the same length, it simply starts earlier... 😉
Very useful to know for kicks ;)
I was so happy when i found this "artifact" a coupel of years ago. I heard this "effect" on kicks on a coupel of metal productions. I just love this back sucking effect on some productions. I remember I tried different compressor settings and other stuff to mimik this brilliant kick sound but everyting faild until one day "Bingo" linear fase on max setting. Yeeeha naild it :)
this may seem asinine, but does this phase issue only occur with digital equalization?
can you explain what is "Linear Phase"
From the intrepid Dan Worrall: th-cam.com/video/efKabAQQsPQ/w-d-xo.html
I think linear EQ is about the same time that signal is procesed on all frequencies.
Could you maybe make a video explaining Mid / Side mixing?
I heard a small vrook'em.
heres how you use (and must use) linear phase. Tweak it, THEN RENDER. then REMOVE IT/DISABLE IT. thats the only way you can remove the latency. but for highpassing lin phase sounds better. its just the case. at least in mastering. but when using lin phase you HAVE TO RENDER AFTER...... then disable.. then move back into time + remove pre-ring from the audio PEACE
No way to replace My old Soundcraft mixer EQ-s on drums :) with this “magic”
fuck and i asked myself why my piano rings when putting linear phase cuts at 20 and 20k on master bus o.o
‚debounce‘ :D
FUUUUUUUUUCK >:( Thanks for doing this video. I think I have made this mistake a lot
Simply blind testing I really doubt you could tell the difference as long as the two results are played back at the same db level.
Take any effect, turn it up to 11, and you are bound to get something you did not want. In all the cases you present, simply turning down the effect or not using at all is the solution, so basically learn how to use your ears to set effect levels. You can't hear scopes, and graphic depictions of waveform phase. If you can't hear it, if you can turn it down. You going in circles.
Damn, your smart...
Should i just not use a fucking EQ?
So much cirurgical overanalysing. I think as long as you're not a top-notch mixing & mastering engineer you shouldn't bother too much. For music producers it doesn't really matter to have this not really recognizable pre-ringing effect.
"as you can hear, it sounds different"
(no perceptible difference)
incedentally, it'd be nice to see a filter that worked based on a 4096 band FFT and you could manually adjust every band's phase by up to 360 degrees
How about MeldaProduction's MFreeformPhase? It's free.
www.meldaproduction.com/MFreeformPhase
I’m not doing plugins anymore 😉
They do sound different actually, the linear phase one sounds tinner.
get a pair of good ears instead
th-cam.com/video/efKabAQQsPQ/w-d-xo.html here, your welcome...
I dont give a fuck about this phase stuff... xD if it sounds good its good :)