Always good to hear others views , I came to KBs with a wrecked back (l4/5, S5/1 blown) - and Pavels training got me back moving with much less pain. My physio said she had never seen anyone with such strong hamstrings - my belief to this day is that swings and snatches keep my hammies strong AND long and allow my pelvis to sit "right"... which gives my spine less chance of nipping a nerve due to the compromised disc spaces. His moves are very like Valery Federenko - think he's his coach? He's a legend and obviously can't be ignored. I protect my back by keeping weights under 32kg and concentrate on form all the time. He's 100% right - if you do lose focus you can hurt yourself - but that's just as true with every barbell exercise 🤷♂️ Have a great weekend everyone 🤗
I have kind a similar background history with sever spinal problems. Except I do have Ehlers-Danloss which gives pros and cons. When I found out Pavel I created one major principle which has guided me from the beginning: Every new moment what I’m practizing i had to have solid 5per side x 10 reps if I’m moving to bigger kettlebell. I call this ”Goretex Principle” 😂 2years, I started with 8kg and now bought my first 20kg’s.
Thank you Lebe, I'm using a lot of your suggestions in my kb routines. Ivan is a legend of kb sport, but his focus is only on sport. In my opinion everyone should do both and know the difference.
I suffered from back problems for a long time. (L4/L5 Disc herniation) I'm young so I kinda ignored it for a long time and kept doing all my usual activities while ignoring the pain. Now that I'm primarily full-time KB, I'm convinced that hard-style swings really helped my back. I focus on form always and consider myself athletic, but I could see how heavy swings to someone with less experience could cause back pain or tweaks. My guess is that strengthening the glutes and lengthening the hamstrings are really what alleviated most of my problems. What I love about kettlebells is that I really don't care what weight I'm using. Instead, I just focus on volume. 24kg always delivers a kick-ass workout. I've never felt better :) Thanks for the great content!
I am in the same boat. I have a bulged L4-L5 with Spondylolisthesis. I have always been a weight lifter, but my back issues improved dramatically after I started working with kettlebells 3 years ago. I love 30 mins EMOM with my heavy bells (40kg and 32kg) but on those rare occasions that am tired or sore that day and my form starts to suffer I drop to lesser weight. I think the weight and style will differ for everyone, I love hardstyle with heavy weights, but also enjoy doing jerks and snatches for time. As long as people are doing what’s best for them and getting stronger and helping their injuries, then it’s all good .
@@bossmanjar Couldn't agree more. If something is working, then is it really wrong? Glad to hear you found relief and were able to continue moving your body in a way that is enjoyable for you. Cheers!
Hardstyle kettlebel work helped me improve my posture, my back isn't hurting anymore and I'm in my best condition soo far. So my n=1 experience is very positive with Hardstyle and SF
I've spoken with Ivan, and he's a very smart guy and is able to articulate very well the reasons behind his methods. What's more amazing is that he articulates in English as a native Russian speaker. I always felt Pavel was more marketing than actual substance.
@Blackthorne P When is the last time you actually saw Pavel lift a kettlebell? He seems to avoid demonstrating like the plague. I've seen some of his instructional videos, and to the trained eye, his technique is very much that of an amateur. Please do point me to something to the contrary because I'm open to changing my mind if given evidence. I know for a fact that he claimed to be a master of sport and then walked back that statement saying he earned it in an unsanctioned event which is definitely not the way things work in the Russian military. It all reeks of the kettlebell version of a McDojo.
@@ProKettlebellWorkouts I haven't seen most people do anything with a kettlebell bit your point stands and is understood. I can't speak to everything about the man and his currently ability bit I learned from his books and videos out of my local library and am grateful the simple straight forward instructions. I have yet to see anyone else do it like that, a lot of people either over complicate it or miss the important Q's. This other fellow seems to know his sport but suffers from lack of knowledge outside it, which is fine but is useless for most people and general fitness. Please recommend me some other people to learn from, it would be much appreciated.
I tweaked my back recently after a few years of KB practice, I don’t know exactly how and when, but it’s taking a while to recover.Honestly I’m starting to consider doing less hard style and more sport style in the future.
Same here. I loved clean and press and TKG, but always managed to get beat up or hurt doing hard style swings. Once I learned sport style, I haven’t strained my back and still get a good workout.
@@badraoul69 are you sure you're doing the technique correctly and adjusted to your body? Im doing them for 2 years now, never beat up or hurting, sore and feeling the stretching, sure. Sounds to me like common issue with people who think you can just grab KB and start swinging it with a normal hinge, thats it. There's actually a learning curve for the simple swing movement itself, not to mention other exercises.
It's a matter of what outcome are you looking for. The Russian swing is more biomechanically efficient, which makes sense when you're training for 10 minute snatch set, however that also means you're not getting the same level of stimulus for improvements in strength and conditioning.
@@scarred10 So I guess my question would be, should the kettle bell swing be considered a strength exercise? I always assumed it to be more of a conditioning exercise. 🙏🏻
@@m.b.593 no ballistic movement is an effective strength exercise,its an explosive exercise alright but done high reps is power endurance.Nobody thinks is a strength exercise outside the dopes on youtube.
Thanks for this! I have sciatica and was not the fittest when I started swings. I immediately hurt myself initially and have since then have been extremely careful and 100% focussed when doing swings (as Pavel recommends) and stop when focus fails.
Dan (the man) John say that theres no real benefit of heavy swings (above 32kg). I feel he's right because the exercise isn't about muscle building rather it's a full body ballistic workout for general strength and fitness. I do it with 24kg and that seems perfect. Even 16kg is good. But beyond 32kg the risk to benefit ratio is too high. Also the swings then become more sloppy therefore less ballistic, thus defeating the entire purpose of the exercise.
The hard style uses always fast muscle fibers even with a light kettlebell. Kettlebell sport is the right way to compete for various minutes, by the coordination of endurance fibers. Among the kettlebell sport athletes, there are different styles. The one of Denisov is not the better for the spine safety of a lightweight athlete because of the lateral pendulum. Anasenko's technic allows a safer way to snatch. I can use easily Denisov technic until 28 kg kettlebell snatch. To snatch 32 kg I can use Denisov's movements but my back feels better by not using lateral pendulum. 61 kg bodyweight, 56 years old.
Man i love the way you think and explain. That Pyramid idea is fantastic applied beyond athletics. Subbed. Keep up the great work appreciate you. Also the fitness is good too. Great channel.
I would like to buy kettlebells for my home gym, but I'm really struggling to decide between competition style and cast iron. Is it really that much harder to swing competition style kettlebells with two hands?
You’ll be absolutely fine with a comp-style. That was my concern at one point also. Also if you progress to cleans and such, the morph of the comp-style is SO much more conducive.
@@Condition_ONEThanks for sharing that! I ended up with the atlas pro because they have a wrist contour and are made in the USA. I love KB workouts so far.
The biggest thing is people think hard style as a hinge... that is currect. However what exactly is a hinge? Look at a standard door hinge. if you move one side of a door hinge then that is what your doing if you do a hard style a la Pavel style. What you really want to be doing is if we take the door hinge and flick both sides inwards with both hands it has tension and strength. How do this correlate to a kettlebell swing? All you need to do is when the bell is falling, bend at the knees like a deadlift allowing both your butt and the kettlebell to fall Into the 'hole' that it wants to go to. this way instead of doing some weird test of your back being able to hinge, your doing a tensioned catapult throwing the bell only to catch it like a softball then to be shot out again. Forget where I saw it but it definitly changed my mind. that to me is true hard style. That way that Pavel does it looks weird to me but hey to each their own.
@@lebe-stark Your welcome! At the same time I am a beginner and should be listening more. I Definitely should of used a less authoritative tone in my comment with the "should" or "what you really want" vocabulary and such. After reviewing your video again I have come to disagree with my original comment. Both are ways. Pavel's strict hardstyle does seem to do more 'activation'. to build off of my previous example if bending at the knees creates a catapult, then Pavel's is a slingshot using the spine in a more aggressive way like what McGill Et al said. To come full circle: Really like how you did the video Lebe, in showing multiple ways for different people. For me and my back definitly gonna be doing more Ivan's style. The compression of my back from Pavel's looks to much for me. Thanks a lot and Keep it up!
I'm still at the bottom of the pyramid, but based on my experience, he is right! I used to have back pains with hard style swings, even with just 20-30 repetitions. However, today I can do hundreds of sport-style swings without any problem! It's a little more complicated and takes more time to learn the sport style, but it's absolutely worth it. The movements in KB sport are more harmonious with the body; it teaches you to use your entire body wisely as one unit. The only disadvantage I see in KB sport is that they focus on very few movements. However, I believe that KB sport should be the starting point for learning how to move with KB wisely and efficiently.
@@sidharthpalakkode5509 i think that this current channel is excellent 👌 you could do a search "kettlebell sport" too, and there are some good series from KB kings. anyway, when i wanted to learn it seriously, i searched for someone in my region to teach me, i learned from him the basic movements, and then i practiced independently.
Interesting, I have lower spine arthritis diagnosed in 2008 in my military retirement. I started kettlebells to maintain and build strength in my back and shoulders to help with it. Now I wonder if I should do the swing. However, I do C&P sets as a workout using double KB so I guess it's ok.
Few moments about your video. 1st I make power without hip pushing (you showed incorrest). Im understand that you didnt see difference, but difference is big. 2nd You showed pendulum incorrect too((( 3 rd main option of my technique is waiting kb flight. Try to lift hundreds of swings and you understand what im talking about. But thanks for promout my videos))))
I'm 70 unfit been exercising with KBs for a few weeks. I watch carefully how things are done. However being soft asks for trouble & twinges. I get thigh burn from standing around I think comes from my lwr back nerves which I suspect the swing or DL as the criminal. Should I replace the swing with that high pull or best I drop the swing from my list? My weights are light 8kg & 14kg.
I would suggest to drop the swing from your list and see, how your body reacts. Although it's rather rare, we've had clients who couldn't cope with the Swing.
I’m sorry but KB sport movements were made to maximize rep counts for time at a defined weight, not the work done which corresponds to the actual exercise benefit
@@lebe-starkefficiency isn’t always what’s best for the particular training goals. With weightlifting for example it’s time under tension and maximum recruitment of muscle fibers NOT how can I move this weight with the least amount of effort.
My biggest problem with hardstyle swing is the knee pain following the next day. Nothing serious, more like a discomfort. However, I've started looking for videos with SF coaches demonstrating hard style swing technique and I noticed that lot of them snap their knees very hard at the top of the swing. Sometimes almost painful to look at. I wonder how not causing them problems on the long run. Having sad that, I"ve got great results in the past by doing ht swings and today I"m sitting way too much in the office, so that can cause the problem too. All in all, I like the philosophy behind it, but unable to do them regularly.
There is no knee snap in a hardstyle swing. What you're seeing is the rapid extension of the hips and subsequent straightening of the knees which happens as an afterthought of the former. It is possible to do these swings with a "knee snap back" as you're describing, but that's the wrong technique (and it definitely does hurt). Do you have access to a StrongFirst instructor in your area? If you haven't already, it might be valuable to set up an appointment with him/her and get that technique issue sorted out.
@@alekssalkinrkc I see what you are referring and I definitely have a lot more work on my technique. Unfortunately there isn't any certified trainer close to my area. Since my earlier comment, I've realised that the knee snapping happens only for a couple of reps when I'm starting to loose control on my technique and feel tired. So I drastically lowered the volume until I gain some endurance to maintain good form for more or longer sets. Now I'm much more comfortable with swings. Anyway, thanks for your suggestion!
@@matyasmink7505 nice, man! Glad you've gotten to the bottom of the issue and have figured out what you need to do to fix it. That's excellent. Keep kickin' butt
Could someone please link Denisov’s original video? On the whole, in Denisov vs Tsatsouline, I’d listen to Denisov any day of the week. Pavel is alright, a smart businessman and an all-rounder. Denisov is a master of his subject.
1:25 It's not Ivan style. He is doing more squat than hinge to propel KB vertically, and you are doing more, almost 100%, hinge for propelling KB both horizontally and vertically. Nothing wrong with either way, which depends on the goal. His way is to train people for competition kettlebelling, therefore his swing is an initial part of snatch. , Your way - general fitness (as Pavel's way too, I believe after few videos watched). I am going your way, but Ivan has this video on his another channel, where his trainee, and KB megastar, tells that "your way" in not the way for snatch :) It's at 1min54sec when she says so and shows it. v=fXHwU0BL8CI
Техника гиревого спорта наиболее эффективна для выполнения большого объёма работы с умеренными весами гири. Американский свинг (жёсткий стиль) отлично подходит для тяжёлых гирь. Спасибо за освещение трудов Ивана Денисова. Всем прогресса!
There is a reason why both Ivan Denisov and Valery Fedorenko allow for a soft bend in the elbow going UP. That is to basically put the kettlebell in the "bridge" position. The bridge position is the exact point where the kettlebell rotates or turns over as it finishes slightly early as the bell travels up. I've never been a proponent of a "high pull" because the elbow pulling upward and backward never actually does that in a Kettlebell Sport swing. The whole purpose of the swing is to SIMPLIFY it and make it as EFFICIENT as possible so that it becomes easier to repeat. At no time does the elbow ever travel behind your back in a swing or snatch. Therefore it only makes sense to put the bell in the exact same position of the swing just as if you were going to snatch it.
I found hard style kb swings after looking for an alternative to running. Did heavy research on TH-cam and was surprised at how complicated various people made out a two hand swing to be…besides the fact there were inconsistencies with demonstration/instruction. Once you understand the basic principles, the movement is pretty easy. What isn’t talked about much is, like with any dynamic movement involving your lower back - tighten your gut while you’re swinging to prevent blowing out your back. If you already have a bad back…don’t do swings. Choose a different form of exercise. If you’re healthy, used good form and keep your core tight, hard style kb swings are doable. This should be obvious.
Lebe, good presentation. Between the two, I prefer the sport style of swing. Particularly like your description of the hip-hinge as compared to the Russian pendulum. The latter I had never heard referred to that way and it fits. Thanks. P.S. big Denisov fan. Total beast.
Hardstyle swing just feels really unnatural for me. Nothing in my daily life from running, walking, lifting stuff, etc has such a hard mechanical nature to it like the hardstyle swing.
I don't think there's "hate" behind observations from other practitioners. They just add to the necessary discussion of advancing kettlebell training in general.
The hardstyle swing increased my deadlift by 50 lbs while I wasn't even deadlifting gor a couple years. It also prevented the hamstring fatigue I would get deep into a hill sprints session This guy can piss off
@georgelincolnrockwell1406 Honestly I am not a fan of Pavel really. But I do know the hard style swing works. It isn't just me, there are tons of people who have benefited from the WTF Effect
@@ploopt These gurus styles don't matter that much unless you have a preexisting back injury or a sport specific goal. You can swing a kettlebell however you like, within reason
@@lebe-stark are you saying that absolutely nobody should do hard style swings because it creates injuries? Or that it's okay for some people to do it and for some people not to do it? This is starting to come off as less of suggestion and more like dogma. And you can't say that you're not picking a side when you're the one 1⃣ who made the video and added the commentary.
@@tracphonevirtualmagazine I'm stating research (that has been done on Pavel Tsatsouline btw), which suggests that an explosive version of a swing causes rapid movements in the spine. For some people with back issues (and especially, low tolerance of shear forces), this might irritate or exacerbate their problem - and we have experienced this in our practice as well. It's also reflected in the comment section. I swing heavy and explosive with 64 KG weights and have no issues. Yet, just because I don't have them, doesn't mean that this goes for everybody. The opposite is also true. Just because somebody has issues with this type of Swing, doesn't mean that it can be applied to everybody.
I seem to have missed the part where he said anything about hardstyle swings at all. Gregory appears to be a decent and knowledgeable trainer with good advice for girevoy athletes, but he *really* needs to refrain from the clickbait and Pavel nudges. I imagine Dan John discontinued contact for similar reasons.
Did hardstyle for about 5 years and tore my hip labrum. The que to slam your hip into extension with your glutes was probably a big part of me getting injured. I implore everyone to learn from the KB sport masters. They know how to use maximum efficiency and good biomechanics. Leave hardstyle for the wannabe tough guys.
i believe that it is impossible to do for example snatch test with technique that harm your back. so when you are ready for bigger load your technique must be also better it is natural and you will not harm your back.
Шли бы вы со своим долбаным рывком. Я впервые сорвал себе поясницу, начитавшись модного тогда Цацулина, и поделав рывок 24 кг. гири. Хотя до этого 10 лет занимался с железом на постоянной основе, делал тяжёлые становые тяги и приседы. Да, к слову. Если хотите укрепить поясницу, то выкиньте нахрен эти тупые гири и делайте обычные гиперэкстензии, толку точно больше будет. That is real comment about Pavel's style and method. I copy from my page there. Translate it if you want to see real picture))) I have Over 23 years experience of kettlebell lifting. Prepared 10 world champions. And still work in Master of sport level. I Know what im talking about.
@@lebe-starkThere is misunderstanding: Ivan re-posted someone's comment about his experience of getting frustrated about kettlebells in general after learning kettlebell snatch from Pavel Tsatsulin. It's not Ivan's words and not his personal opinion. Hard style is not effective way to use kettlebells - it was a project and still is. I'd better ask kettlebell sport athlete how to do the ballistic exercises with kettlebells then Stong Fist "specialist".
fully go with ivan, not because they worked out with the bells way before pavel came to the west, simply from logic, russian style is a smooth flow, pavels style is hard, we wanna get stronger not destroy the body, you can still do 100 heavy reps with a smooth style and be destroyed in a good way
I know that Stuart McGill has some kind of great status, but please, check out some criticism he faces pretty much with every podcast or video he does. Unlike something he and his peers say, this criticism does not com from jealousy. His believes, saldy, are mainly rooted in flawed old research.
The russian guy looks effortless with his swings. His proficiency is impressive. Spines have to deal with shear forces all the time, I don't understand why we should live in fear of them. If olympic lifting 100kg + doesn't give everyone lower back pain I don't see a 24kg kettlebell being such a problem. Like you said increase the load slowly and give tissue time to adapt. Honestly, I've not seen or read nor heard of anyone ever getting injured from kettlebells. Its funny how Pavel took a sport about efficient movement and advocated for inefficient movement instead. I can't imagine how Girevoy trainers first reacted to him, only to watch it become the very popular all of a sudden.
The point is not to be fearful of shear forces but to realize its implications, when they are out of the norm - as they seem to be in the HS swing. We all tolerate these forces differently and I'd like to quote McGill on this issue: "The spine is very resilient - until it is not." - Gregory
He is doing them that way on purpose? The way Ivan is performing the hardstyle would mess up any person's back. He's letting his heels come off the ground, he's snapping his knees, not his hips. He's arching his lower back, and he's lifting with his upper traps. None of this is taught in a hardstyle swing.
I agree on Ivan's sloppy technique. However, this has nothing to do with Stuart McGill's findings, that the HS Swing causes rapid movements in the spine - which may cause problems for certain groups of people with back issues. McGill even used Pavel Tsatsouline for his case study. - Gregory
Here are my unsolicited thoughts on this. Crossfit believe in increasing work capacity. If a kettlebell moves through greater range of motion then it has done more work. That is the entire reason they swing it up so high. The biggest problem is the arc of the bell falling from so high will move forward first. This isn't a problem with a lighter kettlebell but with a heavy bell that really challenges your center of gravity it definitely is a problem. A solution would be to keep the bell close, meaning you lose the swing arc, and congratulations you basically did a double handed snatch. If your goal is to swing heavier and heavier bells for long durations you want to practice good technique that can be done with heavier bells. Crossfit might be happy to do this with 16kg forever, which is fine. In their minds with their philosophy it suits the purpose. Some people would argue the American swing puts the shoulder into extreme ranges of flexion and abduction resulting in a position of impingement. In some cases maybe, but we have lots of people doing American swings now with not a lot of impingement going on, so make of that what you will.
You and people in the comments are being too diplomatic. Shoutout to Pavel for reintroducing kettlebells, but apart from that he was a snake oil salesman trying to market secret magical formulas for years: from weird stretching, doing only deadlifts every day, training without warmup to lifting kettlebells ineffectively. And all of that pumped up with soviet spetsnaz mysticism. Saying that you can do a dangerous move "if you're proficient" or saying that many people do it and don't experience any problems is nonsense. Many people deadlift with rounded backs and don't get hurt either. The other nonsense is saying that kettlebells are light so they're safe. Actually lifting heavy incorrectly for fewer reps is safer than lifting light incorrectly for multiple reps. That's why runners get so many injuries (ultimately all of them).
The HS swing screws up people's hips. 2 major things cause this. 1st is the top position. Jamming maximum tension at the wrong end of the lift is at best ignorant and improperly loads hip extension. 2nd is breathing, hs methodology is the opposite of anatomical breathing and bracing. Pressurized exhalation in the bottom catch position is correct. Inhaling in the bottom catch position is incorrect as you do not brace and inhale simultaneously and our physiology did not evolve to do so. Pavel teaches and uses kettlebells like a guy who walked past a gs gym once, completely misinterpreted what he was seeing and hearing, then incorrectly and ignorantly proclaimed himself a master of sport. A proud puppy with a cereal box trophy
Always good to hear others views , I came to KBs with a wrecked back (l4/5, S5/1 blown) - and Pavels training got me back moving with much less pain. My physio said she had never seen anyone with such strong hamstrings - my belief to this day is that swings and snatches keep my hammies strong AND long and allow my pelvis to sit "right"... which gives my spine less chance of nipping a nerve due to the compromised disc spaces.
His moves are very like Valery Federenko - think he's his coach? He's a legend and obviously can't be ignored.
I protect my back by keeping weights under 32kg and concentrate on form all the time. He's 100% right - if you do lose focus you can hurt yourself - but that's just as true with every barbell exercise 🤷♂️
Have a great weekend everyone 🤗
I have kind a similar background history with sever spinal problems. Except I do have Ehlers-Danloss which gives pros and cons. When I found out Pavel I created one major principle which has guided me from the beginning: Every new moment what I’m practizing i had to have solid 5per side x 10 reps if I’m moving to bigger kettlebell. I call this ”Goretex Principle” 😂 2years, I started with 8kg and now bought my first 20kg’s.
Thank you Lebe, I'm using a lot of your suggestions in my kb routines. Ivan is a legend of kb sport, but his focus is only on sport. In my opinion everyone should do both and know the difference.
I suffered from back problems for a long time. (L4/L5 Disc herniation) I'm young so I kinda ignored it for a long time and kept doing all my usual activities while ignoring the pain.
Now that I'm primarily full-time KB, I'm convinced that hard-style swings really helped my back. I focus on form always and consider myself athletic, but I could see how heavy swings to someone with less experience could cause back pain or tweaks.
My guess is that strengthening the glutes and lengthening the hamstrings are really what alleviated most of my problems.
What I love about kettlebells is that I really don't care what weight I'm using. Instead, I just focus on volume. 24kg always delivers a kick-ass workout.
I've never felt better :)
Thanks for the great content!
Thanks for sharing! Great to hear you‘re doing better! - Gregory
Can you please suggest an instructional video ?
I am in the same boat. I have a bulged L4-L5 with Spondylolisthesis. I have always been a weight lifter, but my back issues improved dramatically after I started working with kettlebells 3 years ago. I love 30 mins EMOM with my heavy bells (40kg and 32kg) but on those rare occasions that am tired or sore that day and my form starts to suffer I drop to lesser weight. I think the weight and style will differ for everyone, I love hardstyle with heavy weights, but also enjoy doing jerks and snatches for time.
As long as people are doing what’s best for them and getting stronger and helping their injuries, then it’s all good
.
@@bossmanjar Couldn't agree more. If something is working, then is it really wrong? Glad to hear you found relief and were able to continue moving your body in a way that is enjoyable for you. Cheers!
Hardstyle kettlebel work helped me improve my posture, my back isn't hurting anymore and I'm in my best condition soo far. So my n=1 experience is very positive with Hardstyle and SF
I've spoken with Ivan, and he's a very smart guy and is able to articulate very well the reasons behind his methods. What's more amazing is that he articulates in English as a native Russian speaker. I always felt Pavel was more marketing than actual substance.
Maybe Gregory can get Ivan on the podcast? 🤔
You're full of BS mate. There maybe some marketing with Pavel but everything taught by him is sound.
@Blackthorne P When is the last time you actually saw Pavel lift a kettlebell? He seems to avoid demonstrating like the plague. I've seen some of his instructional videos, and to the trained eye, his technique is very much that of an amateur. Please do point me to something to the contrary because I'm open to changing my mind if given evidence. I know for a fact that he claimed to be a master of sport and then walked back that statement saying he earned it in an unsanctioned event which is definitely not the way things work in the Russian military. It all reeks of the kettlebell version of a McDojo.
@@ProKettlebellWorkouts I haven't seen most people do anything with a kettlebell bit your point stands and is understood.
I can't speak to everything about the man and his currently ability bit I learned from his books and videos out of my local library and am grateful the simple straight forward instructions. I have yet to see anyone else do it like that, a lot of people either over complicate it or miss the important Q's.
This other fellow seems to know his sport but suffers from lack of knowledge outside it, which is fine but is useless for most people and general fitness.
Please recommend me some other people to learn from, it would be much appreciated.
Also Pavel has been tested Dr. Stuart McGill and he performed.
I tweaked my back recently after a few years of KB practice, I don’t know exactly how and when, but it’s taking a while to recover.Honestly I’m starting to consider doing less hard style and more sport style in the future.
Same here. I loved clean and press and TKG, but always managed to get beat up or hurt doing hard style swings. Once I learned sport style, I haven’t strained my back and still get a good workout.
@@badraoul69 you won't get nearly the same benefits from sport style training as hard style... sport style is like kiipping pullups to real pullups
@@badraoul69 are you sure you're doing the technique correctly and adjusted to your body? Im doing them for 2 years now, never beat up or hurting, sore and feeling the stretching, sure. Sounds to me like common issue with people who think you can just grab KB and start swinging it with a normal hinge, thats it. There's actually a learning curve for the simple swing movement itself, not to mention other exercises.
It's a matter of what outcome are you looking for. The Russian swing is more biomechanically efficient, which makes sense when you're training for 10 minute snatch set, however that also means you're not getting the same level of stimulus for improvements in strength and conditioning.
Good point Ashe!
The goal of the sport is efficiency so minimise work per rep,for strength and power and conditioning the goal is maximum force per rep
@@scarred10 So I guess my question would be, should the kettle bell swing be considered a strength exercise? I always assumed it to be more of a conditioning exercise. 🙏🏻
@@m.b.593 no ballistic movement is an effective strength exercise,its an explosive exercise alright but done high reps is power endurance.Nobody thinks is a strength exercise outside the dopes on youtube.
Thanks for this! I have sciatica and was not the fittest when I started swings. I immediately hurt myself initially and have since then have been extremely careful and 100% focussed when doing swings (as Pavel recommends) and stop when focus fails.
Dan (the man) John say that theres no real benefit of heavy swings (above 32kg). I feel he's right because the exercise isn't about muscle building rather it's a full body ballistic workout for general strength and fitness. I do it with 24kg and that seems perfect. Even 16kg is good. But beyond 32kg the risk to benefit ratio is too high. Also the swings then become more sloppy therefore less ballistic, thus defeating the entire purpose of the exercise.
Well explained 👍🏿 I'm with you. Thank you and greetings 👊🏿
The hard style uses always fast muscle fibers even with a light kettlebell. Kettlebell sport is the right way to compete for various minutes, by the coordination of endurance fibers.
Among the kettlebell sport athletes, there are different styles. The one of Denisov is not the better for the spine safety of a lightweight athlete because of the lateral pendulum.
Anasenko's technic allows a safer way to snatch. I can use easily Denisov technic until 28 kg kettlebell snatch. To snatch 32 kg I can use Denisov's movements but my back feels better by not using lateral pendulum.
61 kg bodyweight, 56 years old.
Man i love the way you think and explain. That Pyramid idea is fantastic applied beyond athletics. Subbed. Keep up the great work appreciate you. Also the fitness is good too. Great channel.
please add a link to the original video
I would like to buy kettlebells for my home gym, but I'm really struggling to decide between competition style and cast iron. Is it really that much harder to swing competition style kettlebells with two hands?
You’ll be absolutely fine with a comp-style. That was my concern at one point also. Also if you progress to cleans and such, the morph of the comp-style is SO much more conducive.
@@Condition_ONEThanks for sharing that! I ended up with the atlas pro because they have a wrist contour and are made in the USA. I love KB workouts so far.
@@NovaPrincess 😀
Listening and learning from you 👊
I appreciate that
Great stuff...thanks my man...
My pleasure!!
Thanks, Greg. Can you point me towards your tutorial on the Russian pendulum swings?
We‘ve talked about it a couple of times on this channel. Check our upcoming „Ultimate Kettlebell Guide“ for reference
Can't seem to find the video you refer to, have a link?
The biggest thing is people think hard style as a hinge... that is currect. However what exactly is a hinge? Look at a standard door hinge. if you move one side of a door hinge then that is what your doing if you do a hard style a la Pavel style. What you really want to be doing is if we take the door hinge and flick both sides inwards with both hands it has tension and strength. How do this correlate to a kettlebell swing? All you need to do is when the bell is falling, bend at the knees like a deadlift allowing both your butt and the kettlebell to fall Into the 'hole' that it wants to go to. this way instead of doing some weird test of your back being able to hinge, your doing a tensioned catapult throwing the bell only to catch it like a softball then to be shot out again. Forget where I saw it but it definitly changed my mind. that to me is true hard style. That way that Pavel does it looks weird to me but hey to each their own.
Good analogy! Thanks for sharing! 💪
@@lebe-stark Your welcome! At the same time I am a beginner and should be listening more. I Definitely should of used a less authoritative tone in my comment with the "should" or "what you really want" vocabulary and such. After reviewing your video again I have come to disagree with my original comment. Both are ways. Pavel's strict hardstyle does seem to do more 'activation'. to build off of my previous example if bending at the knees creates a catapult, then Pavel's is a slingshot using the spine in a more aggressive way like what McGill Et al said. To come full circle: Really like how you did the video Lebe, in showing multiple ways for different people. For me and my back definitly gonna be doing more Ivan's style. The compression of my back from Pavel's looks to much for me. Thanks a lot and Keep it up!
Hi, could you please share the Ivans masterclass video you mention in the beginning of the video.
Ivan is the best 😊
Would keeping the elbows a little closer to the body during the high pull also keep pressure off the shoulder?
I'm still at the bottom of the pyramid, but based on my experience, he is right! I used to have back pains with hard style swings, even with just 20-30 repetitions. However, today I can do hundreds of sport-style swings without any problem! It's a little more complicated and takes more time to learn the sport style, but it's absolutely worth it.
The movements in KB sport are more harmonious with the body; it teaches you to use your entire body wisely as one unit. The only disadvantage I see in KB sport is that they focus on very few movements. However, I believe that KB sport should be the starting point for learning how to move with KB wisely and efficiently.
Hi.. is there a channel you've been following for kettlebell sport? I usually only do swings for conditioning.
@@sidharthpalakkode5509 i think that this current channel is excellent 👌 you could do a search "kettlebell sport" too, and there are some good series from KB kings. anyway, when i wanted to learn it seriously, i searched for someone in my region to teach me, i learned from him the basic movements, and then i practiced independently.
Interesting, I have lower spine arthritis diagnosed in 2008 in my military retirement. I started kettlebells to maintain and build strength in my back and shoulders to help with it. Now I wonder if I should do the swing.
However, I do C&P sets as a workout using double KB so I guess it's ok.
Few moments about your video.
1st I make power without hip pushing (you showed incorrest). Im understand that you didnt see difference, but difference is big.
2nd You showed pendulum incorrect too(((
3 rd main option of my technique is waiting kb flight.
Try to lift hundreds of swings and you understand what im talking about.
But thanks for promout my videos))))
Appreciate your feedback, Ivan! We should talk on our podcast! Are you interested in having a discussion about kettlebells? 💪🔥
I'm 70 unfit been exercising with KBs for a few weeks. I watch carefully how things are done. However being soft asks for trouble & twinges.
I get thigh burn from standing around I think comes from my lwr back nerves which I suspect the swing or DL as the criminal.
Should I replace the swing with that high pull or best I drop the swing from my list?
My weights are light 8kg & 14kg.
I would suggest to drop the swing from your list and see, how your body reacts. Although it's rather rare, we've had clients who couldn't cope with the Swing.
Love your content, But love your open minded and growth focused theme. Keep it up dude!
I’m sorry but KB sport movements were made to maximize rep counts for time at a defined weight, not the work done which corresponds to the actual exercise benefit
The body craves efficiency. Anything else is unnecessary effort
@@lebe-starkefficiency isn’t always what’s best for the particular training goals. With weightlifting for example it’s time under tension and maximum recruitment of muscle fibers NOT how can I move this weight with the least amount of effort.
My biggest problem with hardstyle swing is the knee pain following the next day. Nothing serious, more like a discomfort. However, I've started looking for videos with SF coaches demonstrating hard style swing technique and I noticed that lot of them snap their knees very hard at the top of the swing. Sometimes almost painful to look at. I wonder how not causing them problems on the long run.
Having sad that, I"ve got great results in the past by doing ht swings and today I"m sitting way too much in the office, so that can cause the problem too. All in all, I like the philosophy behind it, but unable to do them regularly.
There is no knee snap in a hardstyle swing. What you're seeing is the rapid extension of the hips and subsequent straightening of the knees which happens as an afterthought of the former. It is possible to do these swings with a "knee snap back" as you're describing, but that's the wrong technique (and it definitely does hurt). Do you have access to a StrongFirst instructor in your area? If you haven't already, it might be valuable to set up an appointment with him/her and get that technique issue sorted out.
@@alekssalkinrkc I see what you are referring and I definitely have a lot more work on my technique. Unfortunately there isn't any certified trainer close to my area. Since my earlier comment, I've realised that the knee snapping happens only for a couple of reps when I'm starting to loose control on my technique and feel tired. So I drastically lowered the volume until I gain some endurance to maintain good form for more or longer sets. Now I'm much more comfortable with swings.
Anyway, thanks for your suggestion!
@@matyasmink7505 nice, man! Glad you've gotten to the bottom of the issue and have figured out what you need to do to fix it. That's excellent. Keep kickin' butt
Could someone please link Denisov’s original video? On the whole, in Denisov vs Tsatsouline, I’d listen to Denisov any day of the week. Pavel is alright, a smart businessman and an all-rounder. Denisov is a master of his subject.
www.youtube.com/@IvanDenisovKettlebellClub
1:25 It's not Ivan style. He is doing more squat than hinge to propel KB vertically, and you are doing more, almost 100%, hinge for propelling KB both horizontally and vertically.
Nothing wrong with either way, which depends on the goal.
His way is to train people for competition kettlebelling, therefore his swing is an initial part of snatch. , Your way - general fitness (as Pavel's way too, I believe after few videos watched).
I am going your way, but Ivan has this video on his another channel, where his trainee, and KB megastar, tells that "your way" in not the way for snatch :) It's at 1min54sec when she says so and shows it. v=fXHwU0BL8CI
I think everyone complaining about injuries in the comments need to consult with a doctor before continuing to train. Otherwise stick to walking.
That's a pretty shortsighted comment brother. Many people may experience injuries when training; this is part of the game. - Gregory
Техника гиревого спорта наиболее эффективна для выполнения большого объёма работы с умеренными весами гири. Американский свинг (жёсткий стиль) отлично подходит для тяжёлых гирь. Спасибо за освещение трудов Ивана Денисова. Всем прогресса!
где найти оригинал видео? На канале Денисова не нахожу
@@leikind вот: th-cam.com/video/qX-P4hQE42Q/w-d-xo.html
3:36 Make a simple mistake with any exercise by not being careful and you could end up with an injury.
Great advice brother god bless
Glad to help
There is a reason why both Ivan Denisov and Valery Fedorenko allow for a soft bend in the elbow going UP. That is to basically put the kettlebell in the "bridge" position. The bridge position is the exact point where the kettlebell rotates or turns over as it finishes slightly early as the bell travels up. I've never been a proponent of a "high pull" because the elbow pulling upward and backward never actually does that in a Kettlebell Sport swing. The whole purpose of the swing is to SIMPLIFY it and make it as EFFICIENT as possible so that it becomes easier to repeat. At no time does the elbow ever travel behind your back in a swing or snatch. Therefore it only makes sense to put the bell in the exact same position of the swing just as if you were going to snatch it.
Wonderful quality kettlebells. Wider handles than the ones I'm used to, but that's not a bad thing.
I found hard style kb swings after looking for an alternative to running. Did heavy research on TH-cam and was surprised at how complicated various people made out a two hand swing to be…besides the fact there were inconsistencies with demonstration/instruction. Once you understand the basic principles, the movement is pretty easy. What isn’t talked about much is, like with any dynamic movement involving your lower back - tighten your gut while you’re swinging to prevent blowing out your back.
If you already have a bad back…don’t do swings. Choose a different form of exercise. If you’re healthy, used good form and keep your core tight, hard style kb swings are doable. This should be obvious.
Lebe, good presentation. Between the two, I prefer the sport style of swing. Particularly like your description of the hip-hinge as compared to the Russian pendulum. The latter I had never heard referred to that way and it fits. Thanks. P.S. big Denisov fan. Total beast.
Hardstyle swing just feels really unnatural for me. Nothing in my daily life from running, walking, lifting stuff, etc has such a hard mechanical nature to it like the hardstyle swing.
All these people hating on Hardstyle remind me of Chi guys hating on MMA. One of them works. The other looks pretty.
I don't think there's "hate" behind observations from other practitioners. They just add to the necessary discussion of advancing kettlebell training in general.
@@lebe-stark advancing is a myth.
Okay so definitely thought this was going to be about a new music genre.
Intersting info
The same can be applied to any ballistic movement - make a mistake, and you can get hurt.
You only get hurt if load exceeds capacity.
@@lebe-stark or technique.
The hardstyle swing increased my deadlift by 50 lbs while I wasn't even deadlifting gor a couple years. It also prevented the hamstring fatigue I would get deep into a hill sprints session
This guy can piss off
@georgelincolnrockwell1406 Honestly I am not a fan of Pavel really. But I do know the hard style swing works. It isn't just me, there are tons of people who have benefited from the WTF Effect
@@ploopt These gurus styles don't matter that much unless you have a preexisting back injury or a sport specific goal. You can swing a kettlebell however you like, within reason
He’s right, i stop the kb with my inner thighs
Hard Style Swings work out perfectly for me. I don't understand where this criticism is coming from.
Exactly! Never had a single problem. I'm 51, and doing hardstyle one arm swings regularly.
You don‘t understand it because you only speak from your experience. This is a highly limited pool of evidence.
@@lebe-stark are you saying that absolutely nobody should do hard style swings because it creates injuries? Or that it's okay for some people to do it and for some people not to do it? This is starting to come off as less of suggestion and more like dogma. And you can't say that you're not picking a side when you're the one 1⃣ who made the video and added the commentary.
@@tracphonevirtualmagazine I'm stating research (that has been done on Pavel Tsatsouline btw), which suggests that an explosive version of a swing causes rapid movements in the spine.
For some people with back issues (and especially, low tolerance of shear forces), this might irritate or exacerbate their problem - and we have experienced this in our practice as well. It's also reflected in the comment section.
I swing heavy and explosive with 64 KG weights and have no issues. Yet, just because I don't have them, doesn't mean that this goes for everybody.
The opposite is also true. Just because somebody has issues with this type of Swing, doesn't mean that it can be applied to everybody.
@@lebe-stark appreciate your response. It answered all the questions I had.
I seem to have missed the part where he said anything about hardstyle swings at all. Gregory appears to be a decent and knowledgeable trainer with good advice for girevoy athletes, but he *really* needs to refrain from the clickbait and Pavel nudges. I imagine Dan John discontinued contact for similar reasons.
Well said, dude seems like he might be a good trainer but I'm not sure about some of the more click bate videos. Most are good though.
This Gregory or LS is just a toxic person tearing down anyone or anything for his channel growth
Did hardstyle for about 5 years and tore my hip labrum. The que to slam your hip into extension with your glutes was probably a big part of me getting injured. I implore everyone to learn from the KB sport masters. They know how to use maximum efficiency and good biomechanics. Leave hardstyle for the wannabe tough guys.
i believe that it is impossible to do for example snatch test with technique that harm your back. so when you are ready for bigger load your technique must be also better it is natural and you will not harm your back.
Шли бы вы со своим долбаным рывком. Я впервые сорвал себе поясницу, начитавшись модного тогда Цацулина, и поделав рывок 24 кг. гири. Хотя до этого 10 лет занимался с железом на постоянной основе, делал тяжёлые становые тяги и приседы. Да, к слову. Если хотите укрепить поясницу, то выкиньте нахрен эти тупые гири и делайте обычные гиперэкстензии, толку точно больше будет.
That is real comment about Pavel's style and method. I copy from my page there. Translate it if you want to see real picture)))
I have Over 23 years experience of kettlebell lifting. Prepared 10 world champions. And still work in Master of sport level. I Know what im talking about.
Are you serious with this comment, Ivan? I'm not onboard with everything Pavel says, but this seems too harsh (and quite arrogant) on your side..
@@lebe-starkThere is misunderstanding: Ivan re-posted someone's comment about his experience of getting frustrated about kettlebells in general after learning kettlebell snatch from Pavel Tsatsulin. It's not Ivan's words and not his personal opinion. Hard style is not effective way to use kettlebells - it was a project and still is. I'd better ask kettlebell sport athlete how to do the ballistic exercises with kettlebells then Stong Fist "specialist".
fully go with ivan, not because they worked out with the bells way before pavel came to the west, simply from logic, russian style is a smooth flow, pavels style is hard, we wanna get stronger not destroy the body, you can still do 100 heavy reps with a smooth style and be destroyed in a good way
Appreciate your perspective!
I know that Stuart McGill has some kind of great status, but please, check out some criticism he faces pretty much with every podcast or video he does.
Unlike something he and his peers say, this criticism does not com from jealousy.
His believes, saldy, are mainly rooted in flawed old research.
Всерьёз ставить Ивана Денисова (!) и Цацулина на один уровень???
АХАХАХАХА 🤣🤣🤣
The russian guy looks effortless with his swings. His proficiency is impressive. Spines have to deal with shear forces all the time, I don't understand why we should live in fear of them. If olympic lifting 100kg + doesn't give everyone lower back pain I don't see a 24kg kettlebell being such a problem. Like you said increase the load slowly and give tissue time to adapt. Honestly, I've not seen or read nor heard of anyone ever getting injured from kettlebells. Its funny how Pavel took a sport about efficient movement and advocated for inefficient movement instead. I can't imagine how Girevoy trainers first reacted to him, only to watch it become the very popular all of a sudden.
The point is not to be fearful of shear forces but to realize its implications, when they are out of the norm - as they seem to be in the HS swing. We all tolerate these forces differently and I'd like to quote McGill on this issue: "The spine is very resilient - until it is not." - Gregory
He is doing them that way on purpose?
The way Ivan is performing the hardstyle would mess up any person's back. He's letting his heels come off the ground, he's snapping his knees, not his hips. He's arching his lower back, and he's lifting with his upper traps.
None of this is taught in a hardstyle swing.
I agree on Ivan's sloppy technique. However, this has nothing to do with Stuart McGill's findings, that the HS Swing causes rapid movements in the spine - which may cause problems for certain groups of people with back issues. McGill even used Pavel Tsatsouline for his case study. - Gregory
@@lebe-stark Found the study, thanks for the info!! 👊😁👍
I will follow the world champion instead of Pavel
I just do isometrics, keep it simple😂
Please comment on the so-called "American swing", often seen in Crossfit. Personally, I am not a fan.
Here are my unsolicited thoughts on this. Crossfit believe in increasing work capacity. If a kettlebell moves through greater range of motion then it has done more work. That is the entire reason they swing it up so high. The biggest problem is the arc of the bell falling from so high will move forward first. This isn't a problem with a lighter kettlebell but with a heavy bell that really challenges your center of gravity it definitely is a problem. A solution would be to keep the bell close, meaning you lose the swing arc, and congratulations you basically did a double handed snatch.
If your goal is to swing heavier and heavier bells for long durations you want to practice good technique that can be done with heavier bells. Crossfit might be happy to do this with 16kg forever, which is fine. In their minds with their philosophy it suits the purpose.
Some people would argue the American swing puts the shoulder into extreme ranges of flexion and abduction resulting in a position of impingement. In some cases maybe, but we have lots of people doing American swings now with not a lot of impingement going on, so make of that what you will.
You and people in the comments are being too diplomatic. Shoutout to Pavel for reintroducing kettlebells, but apart from that he was a snake oil salesman trying to market secret magical formulas for years: from weird stretching, doing only deadlifts every day, training without warmup to lifting kettlebells ineffectively. And all of that pumped up with soviet spetsnaz mysticism. Saying that you can do a dangerous move "if you're proficient" or saying that many people do it and don't experience any problems is nonsense. Many people deadlift with rounded backs and don't get hurt either. The other nonsense is saying that kettlebells are light so they're safe. Actually lifting heavy incorrectly for fewer reps is safer than lifting light incorrectly for multiple reps. That's why runners get so many injuries (ultimately all of them).
There is ample evidence (and experience) that lighter weights with imperfect technique don‘t have to cause harm. - Gregory
you have to train more before giving advises...
The HS swing screws up people's hips. 2 major things cause this. 1st is the top position. Jamming maximum tension at the wrong end of the lift is at best ignorant and improperly loads hip extension.
2nd is breathing, hs methodology is the opposite of anatomical breathing and bracing. Pressurized exhalation in the bottom catch position is correct. Inhaling in the bottom catch position is incorrect as you do not brace and inhale simultaneously and our physiology did not evolve to do so. Pavel teaches and uses kettlebells like a guy who walked past a gs gym once, completely misinterpreted what he was seeing and hearing, then incorrectly and ignorantly proclaimed himself a master of sport. A proud puppy with a cereal box trophy
👎🤣
I find Ivan extremely arrogant
Your style is gonna ruin your back
Actually quite the contrary.
I come from hardstyle. After 12 years. Sorry but the hardstyle swing will ruin your back.