Oh darn the thumbnail and title made me think this was at last you admitting you messed up an apologizing for siding with people who endorsed a purge of gamers while spreading hateful rhetoric about certain people basic on inborn traits they can't control. Thought I could follow you again and start watching but no you still side with those that actively hate gamers and hate the games industry because they have power and are willing to abuse people. That you overcome your fear of such people and started to stand for truth. I see you sub count still down and your views are about half what they were. Maybe someday the message will sink in. Well then back to ignoring any of your post that cross my feed
Woah! Hold the phone! Are you telling me that making a game (or improvements to a game) based on actual player feedback leads to a better experience all around? Huh. Who would of thought it? Almost like saying "Single Player games are dead," immediately preceding a period of time where all the best games for the next few years are single player games.
no, they said they heard us but then released a bad paid dlc for a broken game, then blamed us first for toxicity and once it completely tanked in sales they finally gave a second half assed apology
@@annonomous2158 you mean like how most of the CK3 playerbase want modular governments which would literally make the game even more samey and boring than it already is? it's more important to have a vision and stick to it than listen to players tbh
Maybe some of the devs made them realize how badly they arw losing money and trust (any that there might still be left) with these horribly short-sighted schemes they are forcing on the devs
@jakalordarkblood4331 The devs got that feedback and made this response. Paradox can still fuck it up by doing that themselves. I expect that recent DLC and game sales numbers have been horrible and with all the failed games recently Paradox cannot just cut this one loose like they have done with others. At least not yet.
They didn't make a "beach dlc". They promised and delivered a Beach Properties Asset Pack that contained beach-oriented properties (and some palm trees). It wasn't the most imaginative Beach Properties Asset Pack - there were no beach-oriented commercial properties, for example, but what you got was what it said on the box.
Considering that botched releases killed Imperator Rome (which is a great game btw) and almost killed Victoria 3 and its DLC's, I think paradox realised that this was unsustainable and incompatible with their DLC funded develpment model. If the release version is bad, why would anyone buy DLC's for a bad game? It just doesn't work with their financing model.
Agreed. Crusader Kings 2 was already quite great without DLC. Sure, I couldn't play as a heathen or elected official, but I don't exactly expect to in a game called "Crusader" "Kings." Meanwhile, having custom characters in a historical game is an interesting, but not strictly necessary addition.
A Dlc funding model is fine if the dlcs arent crap and the game not wrecked by bugs. Vic was a cookie clicker at launch, cities 2 is a barren slideshow, etc...
I'd say, as someone that's put over 1000 hours (baby hours, I know) into paradox products. They are one of the worst companies out there. Equaling EA and ubi for greed and shit development.
Considering how much people complained about Imperator Rome, I'm not convinced it was actually good. I've seen videos of CC's trying to 'revive' the game, I've seen playthroughs, but nothing about how or why it was a good game. I also played CK2 vanilla. Playing with DLC's you realize vanilla CK2 was playing like 1/10th of the actual game. Which actually cost a couple hundred dollars. People rave about CK2 and EU4 but when you look at steam reviews, almost none of the DLC's are rated well. Even in Paradox's "heyday", they were never great.
I think Colossal Order and Paradox needs to take a page from Hello Games and No Man's Sky. Free updates and DLC's for at least the first 2 to 3 years. Fix the game, add basic features like Traffic Manager, move it, and others that should have been in the base game from the get go. Build the good will back from the players before charging money for new content
The issue with that is hello games is a private company, but paradox is public. Paradox has certain requirements to make more money and can't really spend that kind of time and money for the sake of their reputation. They might be able to put a smallish team on it like with the Stellaris custodian team but if it's not looking like it's going to make money it has to go. Collosal is also private, but they didn't self publish like hello games did.
Agreed there. If they are having so many issues, why not hire some of these modders or contract them to fix things. They did wonders for the first game, why not let them have at the second game. Farm some of this stuff out if your in-house team can't fix it in a timely fashion.
Colossal might do it, but Paradox would never even consider it. Even these refunds and easing on the DLC requirements to allow the dev team to try to fix their product already seems like a small miracle for a company like Paradox to have allowed
@@CCJ1998 It is very very hard to do in reality, it takes quite a lot of time to learn the pipeline of a company and the sort of programming and problems Colossal needs to fix, are not something modders are usually able to do. Modding vs actual game design, teamwork in a project, company pipelines, legal obligations and low-end framework/optimization programming are very different beasts. Modders can usually make great hires for extra content/asset creation, but most likely would cause more delays and problems with the actual codebase than help
@@thunderchild4816 "Paradox has certain requirements to make more money and can't really spend that kind of time and money for the sake of their reputation." Too bad. Public or not, if they can't get their s$!t together and make a good game, too bad. Some companies don't deserve to exist.
@@ChrispyNut Yeah I get it. While I did pre-order, it was on the backs of all the content creators giving rave reviews just before release. It wasn't even a full 24 hours before the game dropped when I purchased it. Looking back I see there were a lot of red flags that I didn't quite catch. So now I'm in the mindset that I'm just going to pirate and try first hand before even thinking of buying and if there's anything wrong at all, they don't get shit from me. So yeah, I'll probably be making it even worse doing that but I honestly don't care anymore.
Grown-up has little to do with age, i see man-children far too often, older than me and i sure as hell ain't in my twenties anymore. Who would've guessed a culture where feel sad was an excuse to avoid responsibility would lead to bad outcomes huh?
There is a lot of suspicion of content creators with large followings who kept the game's problems under wraps after they had early access. They didn't acknowledge problems until it was no longer possible to downplay them. Everyone knows which ones were the most guilty of this. They shouldn't be allowed on this "council."
That probably would have been due to NDA's those content creators had. If you listen closely enough to some of them, you can really tell by just their tonal language something is up and they are very uncomfortable with the position they are in.
@@cirugo7042 Not at release, but until very near to Release they were under NDA Only really after CO talked about the problems did everyone start talking about the problems, suggesting CO told everyone "talk about this, we sue you. We are trying to fix it, and you saying its broken could break our backs." Now yes they didnt fix it by release, but still. Broken NDA is broken NDA.
Biffa have openly saud that they were told that they were playing on a beta version and that most of the performance stuff would be fixed on release.... so...
they didn't refund the Beach Fronts DLC to be kind to their customers, they did it so they can scrub the bad reviews from Steam. it's been removed from the STEAM store as a DLC along with the title of worst reviewed item on Steam.
I have been 30 now for almost a year, and I too agree it is painful to think on how many things have degraded since I was little. I used to say “back in my day” with a laugh, but the emotion around that phrase has largely turned sad.
What pisses me off as a gamer is how many times has a company had to say 'yeah sorry, we put out shit and thought you'd eat it, but you didnt... so we promise we'll put some seasoning on it next time so that you like it'? Fuck being forgiving of these companies. I'm sick of being told 'sorry we fucked up' - no, do better. We gave you money, you knew the product was shit and you thought to try to make money off it... You don't get a second chance.
I think their player council should not be based on “follower” numbers on social media, seems like a way to gain “good will” vs fix the game. I find TH-camrs, Twitch Streamers, and “pro” players tend to have slightly different needs than Bob and Sally who just wanna play fun games for a few hours after work and on the weekends. Those players want a good balance of fun and challenge where neither over consumes the other.
I think that's true, but for games like this which seem to have a fully casual gameplay experience, I feel that those streamers will address almost every single thing that casual players will experience way before casuals realize it. I think the count of hours they put in would also make them a very good gauge for quality of life improvements at the very least, you know? Though I will say I think you're right in the sphere of games that have a competitive or professional gaming aspect to them.
There is no prototypical Bob and Sally, people come in varieties. Your perception of what's fun, what's challenge and what's the right balance will differ from mine. I'm a Bob who's inspired by some of the cities and stories they create and enjoy including ideas in my builds. And I believe I'm not the only one among their viewers.
@@joshuabrown5558 that’s not neccessarily true. I don’t think streamers should be kept out (sure, have like one or two in a group if ten) but as a person who has played games to record them vs played them just to play, how I setup and play to be on the internet….well sometime you spend more time setting up than playing. People who get really big on TH-cam and other platforms budget their time like a job and that is just inherently different than just sitting down to play for fun. And you can spend triple the time setting up and editing because you are playing for how things look on camera (1) and what’s popular enough to keep your viewer count up (2). There’s a point where it stops being about just playing. The reason to have a group of players is too get as big a range as possible and if you just have folks who do it to make a product (a video) that gains them a reward (followers) you are missing a significant arm of the playerbase that plays for themselves…. from the person who has 1000s of hours but just doesn’t post about it or stream it to the person that enjoys a more casual experience a couple times a week. A proper sample set has those people in it.
It's a statement on the industry as a whole. That we have reached a point where publishers expect to release trash product for financial gain until consumers have to say "enough". I would love to see this start being a reality throughout the entire industry.
Damn that “back in day” segment is so true. We’re not that old but we see a rapid decline in video game business practices that even saying 5 years ago is symbolizing a different generation of practices.
Exactly this. I remember losing my shit when Blizzard did the sparkle pony thing back in the day. All of my guildies riding around on them saying "so what its cool and its only cosmetic!". Look where we are now. Apparently that pony single headedly killed an entire franchise (Starcraft) due to the sheer amount of people who bought it.
It'd be wild if EA came back with a sudden Sim City reboot and it took over the market due to Skyline's negligence. Kind of like history repeating itself. But it is good that they seem to be getting their act together as a whole as a lot of these changes seem promising.
I honestly don't think EA cares about the niche. CO was well placed to take the crown because it's a medium niche and they were a medium company with experience and specialisation in city-based transport management sims. EA won't give a rats about re-entering the space unless it's guaranteed endless live service profit. The best hope is for another indie or small studio under a hands-off publisher to get a few smaller scale management games under their belt before tackling a proper city builder. Honestly I'd be happy even if it wasn't as technical and expensive as C:SL, if it had solid and in depth gameplay mechanics.
It would be funny. But considering how (rightfully) hated EA is, I doubt it would be a very successful comeback. I am certainly not interested in getting another The Sims or SimCity game ever again after how SimCity and The Sims 4 were handled. They have proven time and time again that it's always extra profits over customer satisfaction.
I am okay with using the engine and some of the models/sounds/etc to tell a second story. But I HATE shovel-ware software with a "might fix later"-attitude.
@@MazeFrame Back in my day when you went to a game shop and bought a game on a data disc it actually had to be finished. They couldn't push out updates. Direct downloads and the internet has made publishers and devs lazy in that sense. Doesn't matter if it's broken on release, patch it at a later date/if ever
Finished? Are you sure you remember those days correctly? I remember it being a rare game that didn't have some game-breaking bug on release that you had to cheatcode around, or stuff just released with missing levels and story continuity because they didn't finish it before it had to go gold. Publishers shovelling shit out the door to meet a deadline is nothing new.
Most of the people who bought that expansion were the pre orders so they aren't really being compensated. Free "future DLC" that will come out eventually, is not just compensation for DLC that was already lacking in the first place. (The offering of 2 free radio stations WTF? and Content creator packs are literally mods made by third parties, that end up monetized). This is the most lowest effort imaginable solution. They could literally just come out with more slop and you get nothing. The few who are being made "whole" with actual refunds are mainly because the DLC was the worst rated thing on Steam, and they are refunding it so they can pull the DLC off Steam, so they can sweep the low ratings under the rug when they merge it into the base game. This is in NO WAY a win for the player base, and 100% Paradox covering their asses. Sure on the surface it seems like a win but the Devil is in the details and these details are crap.
Anyone who pre-ordered content that didn't exist already deserves to get dunked on like that TBH. There is 0 reason to pre-order digital goods. They aren't limited, they don't need to plan around the number of copies that a brick and mortar will be able to move.
the issue for me is that it's not just this game, it's a proven pattern with them, 2002 was the last time they released a game that wasn't just a platform to shovel rushed half done DLC down your throat. They haven't learned from it every other time it's backfired over the last 22 years, they wont learn this time either.
This actually makes me nervous about the upcoming factorio expansion. I mean companies who become successful rest on their laurels and treat their customers as money piñatas. CO seemed like a company that could do no wrong with what they did with Cities 1, and then the fantastic failure that was/is Cities 2 means that as players, we cannot simply trust any company to do right by the players even if they have a good reputation. Judge them on what they do, not what they did.
Factorio devs are not in a publicly traded company and do not have responsibilities to the shareholders like paradox does. The factorio devs are excellent and extremely consistant. Factorio will be fine.
I think this is extremely good reporting! I love that you aren't just reporting the good stuff, but reporting it in a way that encourages the industry to see how that this kind open admission of fault and drastic action to make amends is likely to bring long term benefit to the shareholders as well, even if it does mean a short term loss.
I mean... It's technically playable (on PC) atm, just really, really boring. Unless something major changes about that, or you like to just sandbox cities, I'd get something else in 2 years.
@@ThangPlants Yup I figured, that's why I called it technically playable and didn't recommend getting it later either, unless something takes a turn. I've really tried, but got in about 40 hours of playtime so far.
As always, thank you for your great insights on CS2. I’m 100% fine with the DLCs taking a back seat to game optimization. “Just let the Devs cook.” Agreed. 🙂
'player councils' are a good idea. Normally they tend ti be a net positive. However it can also backfire as Smite relies on their ranked and pro plauer content creators for some addtioanl feedback... And those lads tend to have a "pure meta" mindset. I.e. recently the pro and ranked players are up in arms demanding a nerf to health potions... nothing anyone in the long history of the game have ever considered an issue. but suddenly they belive the potions are overpowered...
It's a first step in the right direction. I won't be playing it until I see they've fixed the basic stuff. I'm still shocked they rely on mods to fix their game balance (i.e. land value, amongst others). I believe this game has huge potential and they're actually taking steps towards fixing it. It's a small win for the player, let's now see if we'll get the real big win over time.
Well they completely rewrote the land value code, so it's fixed in the base game. And not with a quick and dirty workaround, but they actually improved the content and made it more realistic. Yes it's bad that they shipped too early but they don't want unmodded game getting stuck. Not on PC and even more fundamentally, not on console.
My problem is they already "apologized" and then they released a paid DLC sitting at Overwhelmingly Negative for a game that's still broken . They should either go full corpospeak, or say nothing and fix the game like No Man's Sky. If they actually want to be honest they should admit they took our preorders because they mismanaged Lamplighters and the Paradox CEO wasn't going to accept getting paid a bonus a couple million smaller than if he had done his market research right.
my immediate thought was that until they front up for at least a video response where we can watch their face to spot any potential PR BS, im going to treat any apology like its worthless PR crap.
tbh at the same time I don't entirely trust these steam ratings either. tons of people with little to no time played making reviews because they are already negative about the DLC policy. that's their right, but it doesn't really help making decisions, like people who leave negative reviews for MDs because the Assistant looked at them weird, I wanna know if I can trust the doc dude....
There is a massive gap left for another dev team to swoop in and make a better Cities style game. Hopefully they’re on it. I think even if the game becomes what CO wants it to be, there is still tons of room for something better. CO vision seems to be far too limited
Shout out to Triumph Studios (Age of Wonders 4) for carrying Paradox. Even tho it was also rushed out. Everyone at Triumph deserves a big raise! You have a fan in my here in Brazil.
Since companies decided to treat the customers as a second class to the shareholders, I do not treat them at all. Since the products are only finished when they hit 50% on a Steam summer-sale 3 years after release, I treat that as the release date, if the game brings something new to the table that is. Else, some friends in their garage are also making games, for 10 bucks, with love and care. With Cities Skylines, Paradox managed to what took EA several game releases: KILL IT Maxis did not deserve to make the trash-tier dumpster fire that was the last SimCity, the one replaced by Cities: Skylines. Neither did Colossal Order deserve to be forced into making their own SimCity. As long as "whoops" is acceptable on the side of publishers paddling to share holders, after an expensive piece of "entertainment" got shoveled onto the market, is acceptable by the shovel-ware-publisher, I can spend my money elsewhere.
I have no problem if they take more time and what they publish then, is good. Nobody wins if Devs rush things, because “we can fix it once it’s out”. No - the damage is already done. That’s like taking your favourite mug, dropping it in a hurry. You can try to glue the pieces back together. It may look and work like a mug should but the damage is done and will affect the structure.
They only removed the DLC to hide that it was the most negatively voted on Steam. At the moment words are just words, Paradox and CO have a long ways to go to regain player trust.
"back in my days" *old man raises fist in the air* 😬Maybe not getting old is the cure for this - at least I tell that constantly to myself the last 10 years! 😟
I really wish we could live in a world where publishers were the front line of community management instead of developers so when a company like Paradox forces Colossal Order to ship an unfinished product, Paradox has to deal with the backlash.
They should fix Star Trek: Infinite as well. I am furious at them for leaving it a buggy, broken mess. This is the 2nd Paradox game I've bought in recent years, the other being Imperator: Rome, that they pulled the plug on and left customers in the lurch.
The only time I would buy DLC for Cities: Skylines II is if that DLC provided a unique experience or a far more in-depth approach to something that was already there. Beaches are NOT a unique experience. Palm tress are very common and should have never been locked behind a paywall.
Props to them for this apology. It's amazing how some genuine words can buy so much more good faith. Than the usual corporate bulkshit we have been getting.
Because CO did such a great job on Cities Skylines 1 and that game gave us so many years of pleasure I think many of us CS players (including myself) are giving CO the time they need to fix up CS2 and make the game what it supposed to be. Even if this takes up another half a year, I would not care. Tinker en Test the game until it's really a worthy successor of CS1. And we, the most die hard fans, after more than 8 years, we can wait another half. 🙂
Really big fan of the push to get your own website and ecosystem going. Right now I'm only in a position to support you by subscribing and liking the videos, but you can bet I'll be over there once I've got cash to spend.
I feel like Paradox now realise that this is messing with there core business. They have also delayed Prison Architect 2 which is paradox. This could be a sign
they're going to go to the local pub, wait for this to all blow over, then they'll be straight back to their shady practices, just like they've done every other time this business model has backfired on them.
I played city skylines for the first time in 2023. I was looking forward to this and decided not to buy which ended up being a good move. Ive been having fun on other games
I played for the first time in 2023 and was excited for CS2 as well. But I'm on console ....so I've just been watching the paradox BBQ from my armchair. However ...in anticipation of the original release date ...I stopped playing CS1 since I hit the node limit issue anyway ....and now all this. Idk what to think now ....never paid attention to paradox before... To to me it's CS2 on console or bust. I won't let anyone I know buy a paradox game if they don't fix this one or put it on console. I'll be d*mned if I play this on my new computer I got for Christmas
My biggest thing about buying any paradox games is the DLC. Weather it's old or new game. I know, going into it, I will have to fork over $100 + to fully enjoy the game. And it's not just the new stuff added to the game. Paradox has been know to release fixes to the base game in their DLC.
It has been a bad situation long enough now that most people laugh at you if you say that this gives you more faith in them. Most people see it as lost money and have mostly moved on to something else. Personally I have less invested ($30 for base game through a third party) so it's easier for me to just wait. After playing I stated this game should have had a year to 18 months longer before release. I expect that by June 2025 it will be what it should have been at release. Temporarily I've moved to Indie games where you buy the game and play. No or very little DLC, most of the game is in what you bought for 10-30 dollars... imagine that...lol.
To think .. that I built a whole new PC just for Cities Skylines 2. Old system : Z97, 4770K, 32 GB (max), GTX 1070 - It was able to run the first game, at higher populations, not great, but it was running. Knowing how well the game was filling up 32GB RAM, I wanted to prepare for the second game. New system : Z790, 13600K, 64 GB, RTX 4070 - I don't know how 'well' it would run, I won't buy it until my favorite TH-camrs say that it is 'now' acceptable. Maybe I should ask Colossal Order to refund my new hardware .. LOL. The old system, although from 2014, was running just fine, except for my expectations for Cities Skylines 2, it was running just about everything just fine, I shouldn't have replaced the old beast.
It's easier to screw up and apologise, than to ask, and risk a no. They rushed to hit a financial year deadline, knowing that they could try to make up for it after the deadline. This is how ALL publishers operate now. They ALL see how far they can push things before they lose all players. They went too far and screwed up. Now they're sowwy.
No he's just humble for you to buy their next dlc cause they lost money on this game. Also when Pocket City 2 a mobile city builder is better than City Skylines 2 makes you wonder what smokescreen the CEO will do next.
Bullshit they are humble. They gambled to fk everyone with pricing and dlc bullshit and they lost. But rather than risk further damage his PR team put a statement together to earn him sympathy and another chance…and we should all know by now that their words are as hollow as hollow as that 1.99 chocolate easter bunny. Let them (all devs / pubs ) prove it with their game design, choices and retail launch of complete games. Until then, no one should take triple a gaming at face value. But im sure there are plenty of fools who will still blindly eat up content and hype and believe CEO’s ever feel bad about anything except less money on their bonuses.
Tbh it is to be expected from a Finnish CEO of a small company. Admitting when you are wrong and owning your mistakes is ingrained in your psyche from a young age here. Dodging responsibility or lying about it will cause a lifetime stigma here, but admitting when you mess up, why you did and trying to avoid it ever happening again will almost alwas result in support, rather than the opposite. That is, if they are actually trying So I will absolutely believe her when she says these things and they will try their hardest. However, will they succeed is another matter altogether, not to mention will Paradox step in to mess things up again Failing to deliver on your promises is one of the biggest fears in Finland that everyone will try to avoid at all costs. So her being genuinely sorry and devastated from this massive failure and miscalculation is very easy to believe
If they get a couple of mod creators, I don't know the bigger ones by name as well as a couple of the bigger members of the community such as biffa, MTM, CPP etc I think they'll have a good slice of what the community wants.
The problem with shareholders is that there are two kinds, and which kind you get is based on who the company wants. Dividend stock prices tend to be fixed to the yearly payout at something like 3%-5% of the stocks sale price, though their are plenty that are more or less. If your company doesn't pay dividends though the only way a shareholder makes money is by selling their shares, and either the company gets bought out buy a bigger company who buys up all the stock for more then market value usually or they pressure the company to make more money now so they can trick someone else into buying their shares for more then they payed, so those companies are driven by their quarterly earnings going up.
Not so sure if things can get better with having EA doing the same thing with TS4 (releasing an unfinished game and selling bare-boned DLCs) and being extremely successful at it. Ubisoft and Activision also aren't far behind. Paradox problem is that their game franchises were never that big to begin with, they were kind of niche.
Considering Vic3's SoL-DLC and 1.7: Moving both almost 2 months in the future, even though we havent seen anything besides texts in DevDiaries, screenshots and the announcement trailer keeps me kind of worrying how far the dev of the actual update currently is. At least for 1.5 we had a whole "work in progress" beta, supervising the state of the update. Now we get basically nothing. Well lets say im cautious towards the promise "we have changed".
For me any gaming company, publisher or dev working under a publisher that is on the stock market, is making games for shareholders not gamers. Any overlap is coincidental in most cases.
I think it's great that a dev actually goes out, owns their mistake and apologize for it. One thing I've learned is that if you do a mistake, you fix that ASAP, because a small problem can easily become a large problem if left unattended or god forbid hidden.
I do disagree, this is not just on the publisher, the studio does a contract with the publisher, as you well know, and that covers deliverables by dates. If you don't deliver the expected thing at date/milestone x, you're going to get shafted, but you also originally signed that you can do X, Y, Z by Date. The publisher does have its money invested in the studio, as well as the marketing most likely with contracts already signed and material printed, ads scheduled and so on. The publisher has put down millions for the product and the marketing etc. and when you tell them 2 weeks before launch, yeah we could use another 2 months, it's a little late for it and the studio can actually be happy that penalties and overdrafts in the gaming industry do not seem as prevalent and/or cutthroat as they are in the rest of the sector.
They had to have known more than 2 weeks prior ...come on now 🤔 ...if I'm a publisher I'm seeing the game played and asking certain questions specifically about the games quality. Someone would answer correct? 2 weeks prior tho means the CO CEO likely lied a month prior to that to PDX. Doesn't pass the smell test ....I'm with CO on this one. Paradox knew more than 2 weeks before release I'm sure.... and said "drop it anyway ...then fix it!!!"
@@mrgooglethegreat Even with your scenario CO failed to meet their obligations by the agreed upon deadline. Perhaps publishers need to include monetary penalties in their contracts for when devs fail to deliver on time.
idk i think a lot of these companies like Paradox would be better if they werent publicly traded so they could have standards unrelated to "lets make money"
I think it's funny that the people who like strategy and thinking deeply about things in video games, also have a dev team that actually thinks about "strategy, and deeper thinking". Something about it is poetic and even enjoyable to see. That the devs and the gamers think almost nearly alike.
15:41 If someone was getting scammed right next to you, it’d be pretty annoying. Imagine if it was a kid and he was paying for things you used to get for free. That’s why you complain. Simply because it isn’t right
Maybe this means there's a dim flicker of hope for the upcoming White Wolf games to not be trash! Odds are insanely low because Hunter 5th or whatever they want to call it was such dogshit, but hey.
7:36 - Until some conservative sociopath decides to go rogue, which wouldn't be the first time. But then they will just be kicked out in this instance, as they're not at the top.
But what is really sad, it shows they had no idea what they were doing and they make a plan only when people are dissatisfied enough out there. Very shameful and disappointing.
For me to trust it enough to actually buy the game, Their creators will have to be able to discuss that there "is" an NDA, the terms need to be public, and the NDA cannot have a non-disparragement clause in it. Most people won't take the time to read it, but some people will, and it will be a level of openness that you don't see from publishers and corporations these days when it comes to an NDA.
wow, I'm shocked that the people who were incapable of releasing a feature complete game at launch, controlling scope, understanding their audience, and anticipating proper deadlines. Made another out of touch, damaging, and incredibly shortsighted decision.
Hopefully their message eases someone's mind, but personally I'm not bothered. I'm still going to wait 2 years and get it on some deluxe version sale for 65% off, and if it's not ready by then, no big loss. So many choices!
the messaging is commendable, rather than that infuriating passive aggressive "we're sorry *you* misunderstood" approach others like to take. sounds like theyre gonna do a No Mans Sky route.
How much has stuff degraded? Well, back in *my* day, ya whippersnapper, we went to the store and bought a box with a game that had *better* be finished - oh, and it couldn't be removed from our computers without our knowledge and consent. Patches might come out, but they were generally small and to fix bugs - because nobody could realistically spend hours downloading them over a phone set on an acoustic coupler. DLC? Disk Loaded Content. (And before *that,* we were typing them in by hand from books and magazines....)
No, no absolutely not. Paradox dug them selves into this shit hole and now they get to lay down in it! It is not the first time Paradox does this, remember the launch of the broken shitheap Imperator Rome? How it was riddled with bugs and issues, lackluster content?
The BS from Paradox had put me off getting Cities Skylines 2 for so long when I had been initially looking forward to it. I think I'll start looking forward to getting it sometime in the future again.
The difference between this apology and the previous ones is that this one didn't try to spin the situation (mostly), and included concrete steps they're taking and can be held accountable for if they don't meet them, rather than vague promises to do better. It isn't certain whether they'll succeed, but it's a damn sight more honest to provide a yardstick they can be measured against without wriggle room, and that's the path they needed to move towards. I kind of suspect from the tone, and from the way that Vicky 3 has gone, that there was already internal pushback against releasing the DLC, saying that it was a bad idea, but someone made the call "we HAVE to release the DLC", and now that it did indeed turn out to be a terrible idea, the people who thought it was a bad idea are finally being listened to. Paradox seems genuinely spooked (and they should be) - far more than most publishers their games have huge audience overlap, so Vicky 3 having a bad DLC release wouldn't be an independent accident, it would be a significantly large number of the same people having their patience tried again. They appear to have really realised they simply CANNOT afford to do that. Every DLC across ALL their games needs to go smoothly and be seen as value for money for at least a while.
I find the difference in community response to very similar controversies between CA and Shadows of Change/Pharoah, and CO and Cities Skylines 2 to be interesting. I think the key differences is that although CA had a lacklustre game release and a bad DLC, they were for separate properties that probably didn't have a huge amount of overlap (even historical players weren't really interested in pharoah) and CA actually look like they're trying to fix the problem. they've had a mini implosion, gotten rid of some high level management (which has obviously been a source of long term problems) and seem to be legitimately trying to fix things that their community didn't like by adding content to the DLC and trying to make sure future DLCs meet the mark. Edit: I also think that CA might have made the greatest developer apology of all time, which I think helped instill confidence. CO on the other hand have basically told their player base to stop whining, the game is fine and the if you don't like the DLC then it's "not for you" and even after admitting fault their primary concern seems to have been to try and scrub their DLC and it's hideous steam rating from the record, taking it down without even replacing the assets with placeholders so now their most loyal buyers are left with an even more broken game than they had before. I can understand why people have been rejecting the apology, even if they said the right words, actions are what matter.
The problem isn't that they did not acknowledge the problem before, it's that they do this with almost every game they release and we have to tell them time and time again.
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pam trees? does that mean that tree is non stick?
Oh darn the thumbnail and title made me think this was at last you admitting you messed up an apologizing for siding with people who endorsed a purge of gamers while spreading hateful rhetoric about certain people basic on inborn traits they can't control. Thought I could follow you again and start watching but no you still side with those that actively hate gamers and hate the games industry because they have power and are willing to abuse people. That you overcome your fear of such people and started to stand for truth.
I see you sub count still down and your views are about half what they were. Maybe someday the message will sink in. Well then back to ignoring any of your post that cross my feed
@@patryn36 Oin Us! :D
You're telling me Paradox actually got player feedback and didn't blame the players?
Woah! Hold the phone! Are you telling me that making a game (or improvements to a game) based on actual player feedback leads to a better experience all around? Huh. Who would of thought it?
Almost like saying "Single Player games are dead," immediately preceding a period of time where all the best games for the next few years are single player games.
no, they said they heard us but then released a bad paid dlc for a broken game, then blamed us first for toxicity and once it completely tanked in sales they finally gave a second half assed apology
@@annonomous2158 you mean like how most of the CK3 playerbase want modular governments which would literally make the game even more samey and boring than it already is? it's more important to have a vision and stick to it than listen to players tbh
Maybe some of the devs made them realize how badly they arw losing money and trust (any that there might still be left) with these horribly short-sighted schemes they are forcing on the devs
@jakalordarkblood4331 The devs got that feedback and made this response. Paradox can still fuck it up by doing that themselves.
I expect that recent DLC and game sales numbers have been horrible and with all the failed games recently Paradox cannot just cut this one loose like they have done with others. At least not yet.
I still can't believe they made the beach dlc and didn't add a way to make you know.. a beach.
in the last game they would
You would have at the very least expected some actual quay walls.
They didn't make a "beach dlc". They promised and delivered a Beach Properties Asset Pack that contained beach-oriented properties (and some palm trees). It wasn't the most imaginative Beach Properties Asset Pack - there were no beach-oriented commercial properties, for example, but what you got was what it said on the box.
@@TheRealPotorooat $10 😂 it better include everything there is about beaches
@@TheRealPotoroo You're just arguing semantics.
They made a Beach Properties Asset Pack DLC and didn't add a way to make, you know, a beach.
Considering that botched releases killed Imperator Rome (which is a great game btw) and almost killed Victoria 3 and its DLC's, I think paradox realised that this was unsustainable and incompatible with their DLC funded develpment model. If the release version is bad, why would anyone buy DLC's for a bad game? It just doesn't work with their financing model.
Agreed. Crusader Kings 2 was already quite great without DLC. Sure, I couldn't play as a heathen or elected official, but I don't exactly expect to in a game called "Crusader" "Kings." Meanwhile, having custom characters in a historical game is an interesting, but not strictly necessary addition.
Exactly. There's absolutely no point investing in a bad game in the hopes it gets better.
A Dlc funding model is fine if the dlcs arent crap and the game not wrecked by bugs. Vic was a cookie clicker at launch, cities 2 is a barren slideshow, etc...
I'd say, as someone that's put over 1000 hours (baby hours, I know) into paradox products. They are one of the worst companies out there. Equaling EA and ubi for greed and shit development.
Considering how much people complained about Imperator Rome, I'm not convinced it was actually good. I've seen videos of CC's trying to 'revive' the game, I've seen playthroughs, but nothing about how or why it was a good game. I also played CK2 vanilla. Playing with DLC's you realize vanilla CK2 was playing like 1/10th of the actual game. Which actually cost a couple hundred dollars. People rave about CK2 and EU4 but when you look at steam reviews, almost none of the DLC's are rated well. Even in Paradox's "heyday", they were never great.
I think Colossal Order and Paradox needs to take a page from Hello Games and No Man's Sky. Free updates and DLC's for at least the first 2 to 3 years. Fix the game, add basic features like Traffic Manager, move it, and others that should have been in the base game from the get go. Build the good will back from the players before charging money for new content
The issue with that is hello games is a private company, but paradox is public. Paradox has certain requirements to make more money and can't really spend that kind of time and money for the sake of their reputation. They might be able to put a smallish team on it like with the Stellaris custodian team but if it's not looking like it's going to make money it has to go. Collosal is also private, but they didn't self publish like hello games did.
Agreed there. If they are having so many issues, why not hire some of these modders or contract them to fix things. They did wonders for the first game, why not let them have at the second game. Farm some of this stuff out if your in-house team can't fix it in a timely fashion.
Colossal might do it, but Paradox would never even consider it. Even these refunds and easing on the DLC requirements to allow the dev team to try to fix their product already seems like a small miracle for a company like Paradox to have allowed
@@CCJ1998 It is very very hard to do in reality, it takes quite a lot of time to learn the pipeline of a company and the sort of programming and problems Colossal needs to fix, are not something modders are usually able to do. Modding vs actual game design, teamwork in a project, company pipelines, legal obligations and low-end framework/optimization programming are very different beasts.
Modders can usually make great hires for extra content/asset creation, but most likely would cause more delays and problems with the actual codebase than help
@@thunderchild4816 "Paradox has certain requirements to make more money and can't really spend that kind of time and money for the sake of their reputation."
Too bad. Public or not, if they can't get their s$!t together and make a good game, too bad. Some companies don't deserve to exist.
" we thought you'd eat shit. You wouldn't. We're really sorry you wouldn't eat shit. "
"How do you feel about eating shit for free? That's better right?"
@@llamatronian101 I'm one of the fools who bought the deluxe edition. I still have $40 worth of shit to look forward to in the future. :(
@@Vandassar Just desserts.
@@Vandassar Oh, a pre-orderer, the folks who're really to blame for all this!
@@ChrispyNut Yeah I get it. While I did pre-order, it was on the backs of all the content creators giving rave reviews just before release. It wasn't even a full 24 hours before the game dropped when I purchased it.
Looking back I see there were a lot of red flags that I didn't quite catch. So now I'm in the mindset that I'm just going to pirate and try first hand before even thinking of buying and if there's anything wrong at all, they don't get shit from me. So yeah, I'll probably be making it even worse doing that but I honestly don't care anymore.
"I'm only 29, why am I having to say 'back in my day'?!" Ahhhhhh welcome to the party. You are officially a grown-up
Hope he doesn't see this but I thought this guy was 40, nice skin for 40, i thought to myself
Grown-up has little to do with age, i see man-children far too often, older than me and i sure as hell ain't in my twenties anymore.
Who would've guessed a culture where feel sad was an excuse to avoid responsibility would lead to bad outcomes huh?
@@AndroidPoetry same here ;/
Same, and I've been saying it for 5 years (also how long I've had grey hairs, thanks college) that's how quick things changed.
If you're going to say that, you gotta say it John McClane style! "Welcome to the party pal!"
There is a lot of suspicion of content creators with large followings who kept the game's problems under wraps after they had early access. They didn't acknowledge problems until it was no longer possible to downplay them. Everyone knows which ones were the most guilty of this. They shouldn't be allowed on this "council."
That probably would have been due to NDA's those content creators had. If you listen closely enough to some of them, you can really tell by just their tonal language something is up and they are very uncomfortable with the position they are in.
@@Gesteppie NDAs were no longer in place at release.
@@cirugo7042 Not at release, but until very near to Release they were under NDA
Only really after CO talked about the problems did everyone start talking about the problems, suggesting CO told everyone "talk about this, we sue you. We are trying to fix it, and you saying its broken could break our backs."
Now yes they didnt fix it by release, but still. Broken NDA is broken NDA.
Biffa have openly saud that they were told that they were playing on a beta version and that most of the performance stuff would be fixed on release.... so...
Pam tree!
I understood Pantry
I have a pantry in my kitchen. Never thought of it as a pan tree before, but it makes sense.
Are you saying "pam"? Or "pan"?
🤣was just about to say love accents but he’s definitely missing that L
The pam tree is gen-u-wine!
I love how the best way to kill a game is to listen to upper management and the board of directors 👍👌👏
they didn't refund the Beach Fronts DLC to be kind to their customers, they did it so they can scrub the bad reviews from Steam. it's been removed from the STEAM store as a DLC along with the title of worst reviewed item on Steam.
And that matters, why? Reviews are to inform potential buyers of a product. The product no longer exists as a saleable item.
They maliciously gave away the dlc fir free. Those bastards!
I have been 30 now for almost a year, and I too agree it is painful to think on how many things have degraded since I was little. I used to say “back in my day” with a laugh, but the emotion around that phrase has largely turned sad.
I’m about to turn 58, I get it.
turn 40 this year, it's been twenty years of downhill (roughly) and damn if that phrase isn't familiar to me.
What pisses me off as a gamer is how many times has a company had to say 'yeah sorry, we put out shit and thought you'd eat it, but you didnt... so we promise we'll put some seasoning on it next time so that you like it'? Fuck being forgiving of these companies. I'm sick of being told 'sorry we fucked up' - no, do better. We gave you money, you knew the product was shit and you thought to try to make money off it... You don't get a second chance.
I think their player council should not be based on “follower” numbers on social media, seems like a way to gain “good will” vs fix the game. I find TH-camrs, Twitch Streamers, and “pro” players tend to have slightly different needs than Bob and Sally who just wanna play fun games for a few hours after work and on the weekends. Those players want a good balance of fun and challenge where neither over consumes the other.
Bob and Sally are less likely to put hundreds of hours in the game and buy all the dlcs, unlike the people that watch content about the game
I think that's true, but for games like this which seem to have a fully casual gameplay experience, I feel that those streamers will address almost every single thing that casual players will experience way before casuals realize it. I think the count of hours they put in would also make them a very good gauge for quality of life improvements at the very least, you know?
Though I will say I think you're right in the sphere of games that have a competitive or professional gaming aspect to them.
You are spot on VANLIFE - No TH-camRS if possible.
There is no prototypical Bob and Sally, people come in varieties. Your perception of what's fun, what's challenge and what's the right balance will differ from mine. I'm a Bob who's inspired by some of the cities and stories they create and enjoy including ideas in my builds. And I believe I'm not the only one among their viewers.
@@joshuabrown5558 that’s not neccessarily true. I don’t think streamers should be kept out (sure, have like one or two in a group if ten) but as a person who has played games to record them vs played them just to play, how I setup and play to be on the internet….well sometime you spend more time setting up than playing. People who get really big on TH-cam and other platforms budget their time like a job and that is just inherently different than just sitting down to play for fun. And you can spend triple the time setting up and editing because you are playing for how things look on camera (1) and what’s popular enough to keep your viewer count up (2). There’s a point where it stops being about just playing.
The reason to have a group of players is too get as big a range as possible and if you just have folks who do it to make a product (a video) that gains them a reward (followers) you are missing a significant arm of the playerbase that plays for themselves…. from the person who has 1000s of hours but just doesn’t post about it or stream it to the person that enjoys a more casual experience a couple times a week. A proper sample set has those people in it.
It's a statement on the industry as a whole. That we have reached a point where publishers expect to release trash product for financial gain until consumers have to say "enough". I would love to see this start being a reality throughout the entire industry.
Damn that “back in day” segment is so true. We’re not that old but we see a rapid decline in video game business practices that even saying 5 years ago is symbolizing a different generation of practices.
The way you kept saying 'Palm tree' had me rewatch that bit. I kept hearing 'pantry'.
Oh man! The accent on "Palm trees" gets me everytime. Pam trees... idk why, but it makes me smile.
Pam trees is ok. But star track? Unforgivable.
"Why do you care?" Maybe, just maybe, because we like the game industry to focus on making good games, not ongoin shopping opportunities.
Exactly this. I remember losing my shit when Blizzard did the sparkle pony thing back in the day. All of my guildies riding around on them saying "so what its cool and its only cosmetic!". Look where we are now. Apparently that pony single headedly killed an entire franchise (Starcraft) due to the sheer amount of people who bought it.
The right response to "why do you care?" is
"ok, I don't care then. I don't care so I won't buy it. Fuck you."
Enshitification will continue until the "service" fails...
It'd be wild if EA came back with a sudden Sim City reboot and it took over the market due to Skyline's negligence. Kind of like history repeating itself. But it is good that they seem to be getting their act together as a whole as a lot of these changes seem promising.
I honestly don't think EA cares about the niche. CO was well placed to take the crown because it's a medium niche and they were a medium company with experience and specialisation in city-based transport management sims. EA won't give a rats about re-entering the space unless it's guaranteed endless live service profit. The best hope is for another indie or small studio under a hands-off publisher to get a few smaller scale management games under their belt before tackling a proper city builder. Honestly I'd be happy even if it wasn't as technical and expensive as C:SL, if it had solid and in depth gameplay mechanics.
It would be funny. But considering how (rightfully) hated EA is, I doubt it would be a very successful comeback. I am certainly not interested in getting another The Sims or SimCity game ever again after how SimCity and The Sims 4 were handled. They have proven time and time again that it's always extra profits over customer satisfaction.
I cannot believe they are even thinking DLC. Fix what you have first.. smh
Creative Assembly and Paradox really are two peas in a pod.
In minute 6:19 he reads how they say will focus on free patches and updates and no pay content and delayed the new DLC for next year
@@carmenneira4731 Don't expect half the commenters here upset about the game to actually read to review what the devs said.
diablo four announced a full on expansion pack and that game.... well we all know the diablo 4 saga.
They literally say that they are refocusing on the base game and delaying DLC, Sherlock
Anyone else remember when games used to come out finished and there was no such thing as DLC.
I am okay with using the engine and some of the models/sounds/etc to tell a second story.
But I HATE shovel-ware software with a "might fix later"-attitude.
@@MazeFrame Back in my day when you went to a game shop and bought a game on a data disc it actually had to be finished. They couldn't push out updates. Direct downloads and the internet has made publishers and devs lazy in that sense. Doesn't matter if it's broken on release, patch it at a later date/if ever
For Paradox you have to go back to 2002 and Hearts of Iron to find a game without DLC...
Finished? Are you sure you remember those days correctly? I remember it being a rare game that didn't have some game-breaking bug on release that you had to cheatcode around, or stuff just released with missing levels and story continuity because they didn't finish it before it had to go gold.
Publishers shovelling shit out the door to meet a deadline is nothing new.
Or when DLC was just addition onto an already finished product
Most of the people who bought that expansion were the pre orders so they aren't really being compensated. Free "future DLC" that will come out eventually, is not just compensation for DLC that was already lacking in the first place. (The offering of 2 free radio stations WTF? and Content creator packs are literally mods made by third parties, that end up monetized). This is the most lowest effort imaginable solution. They could literally just come out with more slop and you get nothing. The few who are being made "whole" with actual refunds are mainly because the DLC was the worst rated thing on Steam, and they are refunding it so they can pull the DLC off Steam, so they can sweep the low ratings under the rug when they merge it into the base game. This is in NO WAY a win for the player base, and 100% Paradox covering their asses. Sure on the surface it seems like a win but the Devil is in the details and these details are crap.
Quit pre ordering games....how many times do you need to be told this before you get the hint?
Anyone who pre-ordered content that didn't exist already deserves to get dunked on like that TBH.
There is 0 reason to pre-order digital goods. They aren't limited, they don't need to plan around the number of copies that a brick and mortar will be able to move.
So far, I've sworn off all Paradox games entirely based on how they've burned their playerbase with this game. I truly do hope they improve.
the issue for me is that it's not just this game, it's a proven pattern with them, 2002 was the last time they released a game that wasn't just a platform to shovel rushed half done DLC down your throat. They haven't learned from it every other time it's backfired over the last 22 years, they wont learn this time either.
This actually makes me nervous about the upcoming factorio expansion. I mean companies who become successful rest on their laurels and treat their customers as money piñatas. CO seemed like a company that could do no wrong with what they did with Cities 1, and then the fantastic failure that was/is Cities 2 means that as players, we cannot simply trust any company to do right by the players even if they have a good reputation. Judge them on what they do, not what they did.
Factorio devs are not in a publicly traded company and do not have responsibilities to the shareholders like paradox does. The factorio devs are excellent and extremely consistant. Factorio will be fine.
They make at least a news each week ...
You either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become SimCity.
I think this is extremely good reporting!
I love that you aren't just reporting the good stuff, but reporting it in a way that encourages the industry to see how that this kind open admission of fault and drastic action to make amends is likely to bring long term benefit to the shareholders as well, even if it does mean a short term loss.
So I guess I'll have to wait another year or two befor eI can actually play the game.
thats what I figured from launch. It probably will be good in time, but I'm waiting until concensus is that its finally good
I mean... It's technically playable (on PC) atm, just really, really boring. Unless something major changes about that, or you like to just sandbox cities, I'd get something else in 2 years.
@@Narangarath i know. I didn't mean it's not functionally technical wise unplayable. I mean as a game I would enjoy and can't put down.
@@ThangPlants Yup I figured, that's why I called it technically playable and didn't recommend getting it later either, unless something takes a turn. I've really tried, but got in about 40 hours of playtime so far.
Assuming they don’t just can it.
As always, thank you for your great insights on CS2. I’m 100% fine with the DLCs taking a back seat to game optimization. “Just let the Devs cook.” Agreed. 🙂
What is a pham tree :) Just giving you a hard time. Love you man! Great work!
'player councils' are a good idea. Normally they tend ti be a net positive. However it can also backfire as Smite relies on their ranked and pro plauer content creators for some addtioanl feedback... And those lads tend to have a "pure meta" mindset. I.e. recently the pro and ranked players are up in arms demanding a nerf to health potions... nothing anyone in the long history of the game have ever considered an issue. but suddenly they belive the potions are overpowered...
It's a first step in the right direction. I won't be playing it until I see they've fixed the basic stuff.
I'm still shocked they rely on mods to fix their game balance (i.e. land value, amongst others).
I believe this game has huge potential and they're actually taking steps towards fixing it.
It's a small win for the player, let's now see if we'll get the real big win over time.
Well they completely rewrote the land value code, so it's fixed in the base game. And not with a quick and dirty workaround, but they actually improved the content and made it more realistic. Yes it's bad that they shipped too early but they don't want unmodded game getting stuck. Not on PC and even more fundamentally, not on console.
My problem is they already "apologized" and then they released a paid DLC sitting at Overwhelmingly Negative for a game that's still broken . They should either go full corpospeak, or say nothing and fix the game like No Man's Sky. If they actually want to be honest they should admit they took our preorders because they mismanaged Lamplighters and the Paradox CEO wasn't going to accept getting paid a bonus a couple million smaller than if he had done his market research right.
my immediate thought was that until they front up for at least a video response where we can watch their face to spot any potential PR BS, im going to treat any apology like its worthless PR crap.
Anyone remember the south park episode "we are sorry"
They already do full corpospeak.
tbh at the same time I don't entirely trust these steam ratings either. tons of people with little to no time played making reviews because they are already negative about the DLC policy.
that's their right, but it doesn't really help making decisions, like people who leave negative reviews for MDs because the Assistant looked at them weird, I wanna know if I can trust the doc dude....
There is a massive gap left for another dev team to swoop in and make a better Cities style game. Hopefully they’re on it. I think even if the game becomes what CO wants it to be, there is still tons of room for something better. CO vision seems to be far too limited
Shout out to Triumph Studios (Age of Wonders 4) for carrying Paradox. Even tho it was also rushed out. Everyone at Triumph deserves a big raise! You have a fan in my here in Brazil.
Since companies decided to treat the customers as a second class to the shareholders, I do not treat them at all.
Since the products are only finished when they hit 50% on a Steam summer-sale 3 years after release, I treat that as the release date, if the game brings something new to the table that is.
Else, some friends in their garage are also making games, for 10 bucks, with love and care.
With Cities Skylines, Paradox managed to what took EA several game releases: KILL IT
Maxis did not deserve to make the trash-tier dumpster fire that was the last SimCity, the one replaced by Cities: Skylines.
Neither did Colossal Order deserve to be forced into making their own SimCity.
As long as "whoops" is acceptable on the side of publishers paddling to share holders, after an expensive piece of "entertainment" got shoveled onto the market, is acceptable by the shovel-ware-publisher, I can spend my money elsewhere.
I have no problem if they take more time and what they publish then, is good. Nobody wins if Devs rush things, because “we can fix it once it’s out”. No - the damage is already done.
That’s like taking your favourite mug, dropping it in a hurry. You can try to glue the pieces back together. It may look and work like a mug should but the damage is done and will affect the structure.
They only removed the DLC to hide that it was the most negatively voted on Steam. At the moment words are just words, Paradox and CO have a long ways to go to regain player trust.
Perfectly said. Thank you.
"back in my days" *old man raises fist in the air* 😬Maybe not getting old is the cure for this - at least I tell that constantly to myself the last 10 years! 😟
I really wish we could live in a world where publishers were the front line of community management instead of developers so when a company like Paradox forces Colossal Order to ship an unfinished product, Paradox has to deal with the backlash.
that is indeed good news. The CEO talked the talk. Let's hope they walk the walk
Things are fun and spicy indeed happy Friday 👌
They should fix Star Trek: Infinite as well. I am furious at them for leaving it a buggy, broken mess. This is the 2nd Paradox game I've bought in recent years, the other being Imperator: Rome, that they pulled the plug on and left customers in the lurch.
2am
My Brain: "pam tree"
The only time I would buy DLC for Cities: Skylines II is if that DLC provided a unique experience or a far more in-depth approach to something that was already there.
Beaches are NOT a unique experience. Palm tress are very common and should have never been locked behind a paywall.
Im 40 so imagine back in my day. When i installed patches for max payne when its released from my 56k internet
"Pam Tree" They charged for a shrubbery...Ni!
Charging players for a pam tree? It can't be done!
Props to them for this apology. It's amazing how some genuine words can buy so much more good faith. Than the usual corporate bulkshit we have been getting.
Because CO did such a great job on Cities Skylines 1 and that game gave us so many years of pleasure I think many of us CS players (including myself) are giving CO the time they need to fix up CS2 and make the game what it supposed to be. Even if this takes up another half a year, I would not care. Tinker en Test the game until it's really a worthy successor of CS1. And we, the most die hard fans, after more than 8 years, we can wait another half. 🙂
Picturing Pam from Archer everytime you say "palm" 😂
Really big fan of the push to get your own website and ecosystem going. Right now I'm only in a position to support you by subscribing and liking the videos, but you can bet I'll be over there once I've got cash to spend.
Would love for CS2 to be optimized to allow less new hardware to run it.
So Colossal Order wants to tap influences for more free advertising, I mean, troubleshooting.
I feel like Paradox now realise that this is messing with there core business. They have also delayed Prison Architect 2 which is paradox. This could be a sign
they're going to go to the local pub, wait for this to all blow over, then they'll be straight back to their shady practices, just like they've done every other time this business model has backfired on them.
I played city skylines for the first time in 2023. I was looking forward to this and decided not to buy which ended up being a good move. Ive been having fun on other games
I played for the first time in 2023 and was excited for CS2 as well. But I'm on console ....so I've just been watching the paradox BBQ from my armchair. However ...in anticipation of the original release date ...I stopped playing CS1 since I hit the node limit issue anyway ....and now all this. Idk what to think now ....never paid attention to paradox before... To to me it's CS2 on console or bust. I won't let anyone I know buy a paradox game if they don't fix this one or put it on console. I'll be d*mned if I play this on my new computer I got for Christmas
Do they have staff that formerly worked at ccp / eve ? this smells like straight out of that playbook. edit: immediatly mentions eve :D
Is Bell saying Pelm instead of palm on purpose ?
he's saying palm
@@Owl_of_Whimsy it sounds like pelm
@@JamailvanWestering nuh uh
Yuh uh uh
Accents are a thing.
My biggest thing about buying any paradox games is the DLC. Weather it's old or new game. I know, going into it, I will have to fork over $100 + to fully enjoy the game. And it's not just the new stuff added to the game. Paradox has been know to release fixes to the base game in their DLC.
It has been a bad situation long enough now that most people laugh at you if you say that this gives you more faith in them. Most people see it as lost money and have mostly moved on to something else. Personally I have less invested ($30 for base game through a third party) so it's easier for me to just wait. After playing I stated this game should have had a year to 18 months longer before release. I expect that by June 2025 it will be what it should have been at release.
Temporarily I've moved to Indie games where you buy the game and play. No or very little DLC, most of the game is in what you bought for 10-30 dollars... imagine that...lol.
To think .. that I built a whole new PC just for Cities Skylines 2.
Old system : Z97, 4770K, 32 GB (max), GTX 1070 - It was able to run the first game, at higher populations, not great, but it was running.
Knowing how well the game was filling up 32GB RAM, I wanted to prepare for the second game.
New system : Z790, 13600K, 64 GB, RTX 4070 - I don't know how 'well' it would run, I won't buy it until my favorite TH-camrs say that it is 'now' acceptable.
Maybe I should ask Colossal Order to refund my new hardware .. LOL.
The old system, although from 2014, was running just fine, except for my expectations for Cities Skylines 2, it was running just about everything just fine, I shouldn't have replaced the old beast.
It's easier to screw up and apologise, than to ask, and risk a no. They rushed to hit a financial year deadline, knowing that they could try to make up for it after the deadline. This is how ALL publishers operate now. They ALL see how far they can push things before they lose all players. They went too far and screwed up. Now they're sowwy.
Love the Mass Effect Andromeda background music!
It's amazing to see a CEO be so humble. Now it's time for them to put their words into action. It's hopeful to see.
No he's just humble for you to buy their next dlc cause they lost money on this game. Also when Pocket City 2 a mobile city builder is better than City Skylines 2 makes you wonder what smokescreen the CEO will do next.
Bullshit they are humble. They gambled to fk everyone with pricing and dlc bullshit and they lost. But rather than risk further damage his PR team put a statement together to earn him sympathy and another chance…and we should all know by now that their words are as hollow as hollow as that 1.99 chocolate easter bunny.
Let them (all devs / pubs ) prove it with their game design, choices and retail launch of complete games. Until then, no one should take triple a gaming at face value. But im sure there are plenty of fools who will still blindly eat up content and hype and believe CEO’s ever feel bad about anything except less money on their bonuses.
Tbh it is to be expected from a Finnish CEO of a small company. Admitting when you are wrong and owning your mistakes is ingrained in your psyche from a young age here. Dodging responsibility or lying about it will cause a lifetime stigma here, but admitting when you mess up, why you did and trying to avoid it ever happening again will almost alwas result in support, rather than the opposite. That is, if they are actually trying
So I will absolutely believe her when she says these things and they will try their hardest. However, will they succeed is another matter altogether, not to mention will Paradox step in to mess things up again
Failing to deliver on your promises is one of the biggest fears in Finland that everyone will try to avoid at all costs. So her being genuinely sorry and devastated from this massive failure and miscalculation is very easy to believe
@@powerfulshammy Nah, I don't buy that for a second. However I wouldn't put it past Paradox to do that
It's insane, because some time ago she said they were proud of it and didn't feel sorry. And don't forget to call the community toxic.
If they get a couple of mod creators, I don't know the bigger ones by name as well as a couple of the bigger members of the community such as biffa, MTM, CPP etc I think they'll have a good slice of what the community wants.
The problem with shareholders is that there are two kinds, and which kind you get is based on who the company wants. Dividend stock prices tend to be fixed to the yearly payout at something like 3%-5% of the stocks sale price, though their are plenty that are more or less. If your company doesn't pay dividends though the only way a shareholder makes money is by selling their shares, and either the company gets bought out buy a bigger company who buys up all the stock for more then market value usually or they pressure the company to make more money now so they can trick someone else into buying their shares for more then they payed, so those companies are driven by their quarterly earnings going up.
Bellular saying "Palm and Bush" LOL.
Not so sure if things can get better with having EA doing the same thing with TS4 (releasing an unfinished game and selling bare-boned DLCs) and being extremely successful at it. Ubisoft and Activision also aren't far behind. Paradox problem is that their game franchises were never that big to begin with, they were kind of niche.
Considering Vic3's SoL-DLC and 1.7: Moving both almost 2 months in the future, even though we havent seen anything besides texts in DevDiaries, screenshots and the announcement trailer keeps me kind of worrying how far the dev of the actual update currently is. At least for 1.5 we had a whole "work in progress" beta, supervising the state of the update. Now we get basically nothing. Well lets say im cautious towards the promise "we have changed".
For me any gaming company, publisher or dev working under a publisher that is on the stock market, is making games for shareholders not gamers. Any overlap is coincidental in most cases.
10 years older than you and yeah "back in my day" I definitely feel ya on that.
Holy smoke, Bellular is only 29? I thought he was closer to 40. XD
You're content is always fantastic Bell, keep it comin!!
I think it's great that a dev actually goes out, owns their mistake and apologize for it. One thing I've learned is that if you do a mistake, you fix that ASAP, because a small problem can easily become a large problem if left unattended or god forbid hidden.
I appreciate the effort, no longer trust them, don’t trust content creators since they shilled for this crap, hope CO can pull it off. We shall see.
I do disagree, this is not just on the publisher, the studio does a contract with the publisher, as you well know, and that covers deliverables by dates. If you don't deliver the expected thing at date/milestone x, you're going to get shafted, but you also originally signed that you can do X, Y, Z by Date. The publisher does have its money invested in the studio, as well as the marketing most likely with contracts already signed and material printed, ads scheduled and so on. The publisher has put down millions for the product and the marketing etc. and when you tell them 2 weeks before launch, yeah we could use another 2 months, it's a little late for it and the studio can actually be happy that penalties and overdrafts in the gaming industry do not seem as prevalent and/or cutthroat as they are in the rest of the sector.
Yes. Thank you.
They had to have known more than 2 weeks prior ...come on now 🤔 ...if I'm a publisher I'm seeing the game played and asking certain questions specifically about the games quality. Someone would answer correct? 2 weeks prior tho means the CO CEO likely lied a month prior to that to PDX. Doesn't pass the smell test ....I'm with CO on this one. Paradox knew more than 2 weeks before release I'm sure.... and said "drop it anyway ...then fix it!!!"
@@mrgooglethegreat Even with your scenario CO failed to meet their obligations by the agreed upon deadline. Perhaps publishers need to include monetary penalties in their contracts for when devs fail to deliver on time.
idk i think a lot of these companies like Paradox would be better if they werent publicly traded so they could have standards unrelated to "lets make money"
I think it's funny that the people who like strategy and thinking deeply about things in video games, also have a dev team that actually thinks about "strategy, and deeper thinking".
Something about it is poetic and even enjoyable to see. That the devs and the gamers think almost nearly alike.
ya know what that reminds me? the runtime fee Unity introduced few months back caused a great divide among developers to make a switch
Michael now, "I'm 29 years old!"
Michael soon, "Get off my lawn!"
😂
That sort of 'long term investing' went out the window when funds switched over to AI to pick their stocks.
15:41 If someone was getting scammed right next to you, it’d be pretty annoying. Imagine if it was a kid and he was paying for things you used to get for free.
That’s why you complain. Simply because it isn’t right
Maybe this means there's a dim flicker of hope for the upcoming White Wolf games to not be trash!
Odds are insanely low because Hunter 5th or whatever they want to call it was such dogshit, but hey.
Like, everything Paradox has done since HOI4 has been a regression, and they’ve only increased the monetization.
7:36 - Until some conservative sociopath decides to go rogue, which wouldn't be the first time. But then they will just be kicked out in this instance, as they're not at the top.
But what is really sad, it shows they had no idea what they were doing and they make a plan only when people are dissatisfied enough out there.
Very shameful and disappointing.
I've been gaming for over 4 decades at this point. Trust me, "back in my day.." becomes something you say more and more as time goes on.
For me to trust it enough to actually buy the game, Their creators will have to be able to discuss that there "is" an NDA, the terms need to be public, and the NDA cannot have a non-disparragement clause in it. Most people won't take the time to read it, but some people will, and it will be a level of openness that you don't see from publishers and corporations these days when it comes to an NDA.
wow, I'm shocked that the people who were incapable of releasing a feature complete game at launch, controlling scope, understanding their audience, and anticipating proper deadlines. Made another out of touch, damaging, and incredibly shortsighted decision.
Hopefully their message eases someone's mind, but personally I'm not bothered. I'm still going to wait 2 years and get it on some deluxe version sale for 65% off, and if it's not ready by then, no big loss. So many choices!
the messaging is commendable, rather than that infuriating passive aggressive "we're sorry *you* misunderstood" approach others like to take.
sounds like theyre gonna do a No Mans Sky route.
How much has stuff degraded? Well, back in *my* day, ya whippersnapper, we went to the store and bought a box with a game that had *better* be finished - oh, and it couldn't be removed from our computers without our knowledge and consent. Patches might come out, but they were generally small and to fix bugs - because nobody could realistically spend hours downloading them over a phone set on an acoustic coupler. DLC? Disk Loaded Content. (And before *that,* we were typing them in by hand from books and magazines....)
It's weird because, what part of the first game's massive library of piecemeal shenanigans didn't tip off people to the next iteration's swindle?
No, no absolutely not. Paradox dug them selves into this shit hole and now they get to lay down in it! It is not the first time Paradox does this, remember the launch of the broken shitheap Imperator Rome? How it was riddled with bugs and issues, lackluster content?
that Mythic Shop Thing in OW2 is the Greediest Stuff I've ever seen! It even overshadows Bobby Kotick's Greed
The BS from Paradox had put me off getting Cities Skylines 2 for so long when I had been initially looking forward to it. I think I'll start looking forward to getting it sometime in the future again.
The difference between this apology and the previous ones is that this one didn't try to spin the situation (mostly), and included concrete steps they're taking and can be held accountable for if they don't meet them, rather than vague promises to do better.
It isn't certain whether they'll succeed, but it's a damn sight more honest to provide a yardstick they can be measured against without wriggle room, and that's the path they needed to move towards.
I kind of suspect from the tone, and from the way that Vicky 3 has gone, that there was already internal pushback against releasing the DLC, saying that it was a bad idea, but someone made the call "we HAVE to release the DLC", and now that it did indeed turn out to be a terrible idea, the people who thought it was a bad idea are finally being listened to.
Paradox seems genuinely spooked (and they should be) - far more than most publishers their games have huge audience overlap, so Vicky 3 having a bad DLC release wouldn't be an independent accident, it would be a significantly large number of the same people having their patience tried again. They appear to have really realised they simply CANNOT afford to do that. Every DLC across ALL their games needs to go smoothly and be seen as value for money for at least a while.
I find the difference in community response to very similar controversies between CA and Shadows of Change/Pharoah, and CO and Cities Skylines 2 to be interesting.
I think the key differences is that although CA had a lacklustre game release and a bad DLC, they were for separate properties that probably didn't have a huge amount of overlap (even historical players weren't really interested in pharoah) and CA actually look like they're trying to fix the problem. they've had a mini implosion, gotten rid of some high level management (which has obviously been a source of long term problems) and seem to be legitimately trying to fix things that their community didn't like by adding content to the DLC and trying to make sure future DLCs meet the mark. Edit: I also think that CA might have made the greatest developer apology of all time, which I think helped instill confidence.
CO on the other hand have basically told their player base to stop whining, the game is fine and the if you don't like the DLC then it's "not for you" and even after admitting fault their primary concern seems to have been to try and scrub their DLC and it's hideous steam rating from the record, taking it down without even replacing the assets with placeholders so now their most loyal buyers are left with an even more broken game than they had before. I can understand why people have been rejecting the apology, even if they said the right words, actions are what matter.
Oh my god, he's so good at doing an American accent I can almost forget he's Irish, then he comes out with palm tree.
Community Councils are hit or miss, WOW's was dreadful.
Huge respect for Paradox for acknowledging the problem and working upon it
The problem isn't that they did not acknowledge the problem before, it's that they do this with almost every game they release and we have to tell them time and time again.