These Game Studios Are Facing Reality
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 16 ต.ค. 2024
- Today we check in with Frostpunk 2, Warhammer 3 Total War and Payday 3 - each cases of developers working out what the hell to do about player feedback.
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8:10 That is actually understandable if you look into the matter (not necessarily the price point but blood and gore not being present in the base game). The issue is this: In most EU countries the game is rated PEGI 13 (or 12depending on country); here in Germany it is rated FSK 12. However...Blood and gore would have made such a rating impossible. In some countries it would have bumped up the rating to 16, here in Germany it would have made the game FSK 18 by default since all blood and gore effects mean the game in question is for adults only.
I'm pretty sure that the devs would like to make many more DLCs for Warhammer 3 for years to come btw. Unfortunately I'm also pretty sure that SEGA is watching everything that happens now and will only allow that if the coming DLCs sell well.
Do your videos on Bellular games have more of the two presenter format that you used to do? I liked that format.
You should put chapters for your videos if you're usually going to cover multiple stories.
They're going to start putting out 100 dollar games. People will wait for discounts, developers will be forced to discount due to poor sales. Games will be purchased for 50-60 bucks. Publisher's make the same money and look bad at the same time. Some company figures it out, prices their game for 50 bucks... becomes hero.
that's kinda the AA niche already... I dont know if its a net positive for the dev, though... if a game is VERY underpriced I may be inclined to gift it to others, but I think most people spending $40 on a good game, would just as easily buy it at $60.
@@dracos24 Usually, I buy games when they're _less than_ $40
A solid prophecy.
Or, sell for 100 to take advantage of fomo, and discount to 60 to make discount buyers pay the full 60. They win in both.
Whats really gonna happen is the game will be put put at $100. The silent majority that dosent give a fck will buy it for $100 sales will slow down and the game will get discounted. Everyone who was unwilling to pay $100 will buy into the game over time as the proce drops to a price they are willing to pay. Publisher makes more $$$.
I give the Frostpunk devs a lot of credit for saying "this is good...but not good enough" after the early access they gave players. Wanting not just a profitable game, but a GENUINELY GOOD game...that's what devs should be. Disney said it well back in the day: “We don’t make movies to make money, we make money to make more movies.” That's what corps like EA have forgotten.
Modern-day Disney seems to have abandoned that ideal, sadly.
that is a really good ideal that every business should have after all the reason people by your stuff is not to just give you money but to get something they want
Yeah, quoting Disney on that matter feels plaing wrong though.
@@mark.082 I feel like the only reason that feels like that is because Disney hasn't been following that quote.
@@NCRVeteranRanger disney still makes money just to make movies. but that was never the end of the story. they don't make the movies just to earn back their money; they make the movies to change society
It feels a bit disingenuine to describe the Payday 3 issue as "Payday 2 has a bunch of years of dlc." Payday 3's issues are systemic to nearly every facet of its gameplay loop.
The only surprise there is that it took customers 3 games to realize they'd been ripped off
I bought Payday 2 near release and it was awesome.
Tell me one of the biggest problems is the fact that they went back to Payday ones style of gameplay where it was more slow and harder versus Payday 2 where it's a wacky woohoo game where I can run around in a chicken Mass swinging a katana killing heavily armored robot cops you know what I'm saying now you compare that to Payday 3 where you walk in with a suit and tie in a Kevlar vest on and you struggle to kill a beat cop with a ballistic vest on on Overkill
@@garretwoeller7669 I believe that standing in a circle for an arbitrary amount of time to "hack the wifi" sort of killed it for me
I really see why many other developers hated games like BG3 and Elden Ring when they were released and got amazing reviews and adoration. Fromsoft and Larian sold the general public a Bugatti for $60 while they're charging $70+ for a 1989 Astro van with one wheel.
Well part of the reason for that was because the devs that hated the response to BG3 and Elden Ring was because they knew they couldn’t do the same as Larian or Fromsoft.
The devs that hated on Elden Ring and BG3 knew that their games would be compared to them and their games look like cash grabs in comparison.
@@Scruffynerfherder10 was so funny to see AAA game devs shame Larian because they decided to give players a real game.
So you should expect every game to be a hundred million dollar budget with hundreds of devs? And take like 7 years?
@@luluna5228well…the executives gotta steal money somehow don’t they
I've been waiting since the teaser was just "Frostpunk 2" on a black screen, please, take your time.
Same here. Come, sit, I have potato soup
@@vaultking9984 Wood scrap soup is better
@@wonderofu1603 sawdust is good for the soul
Same same. On occasion I split my meals with sawdust just to remind myself how good the real thing is.
Cannibalism of players long gone. They’ll play FR2, *With us*.
Legend was saying that there's a cycle to how CA releases good content then gets complacent, will end up releasing subpar expansions, will recieve harsh backlash, sales go down and then CA has to relent and give people what they want. We'll see how long before we're back to square one.
Creative Assembly are only devs, not publishers. Blame Sega for that. And if it weren't for a certain IGN reviewer, we'd have had more games from them like Alien Isolation instead of just more Total War games.
To give them credit almost all dlcs are really good. It's just the pricing.
The developers seem like they are trying to make intresting content that we want but the publishers are screwing everyone over
The Day CA gets shutdown it will be a great day
@@Portuducks Wait what happened with IGN?
@@sceligator they gave alienisolation a 5.9 that is HIGHLY regarded by gamers
Payday has to be one of the most mismanaged franchises of the current era
Yep, right up there with OW and Destiny
I can’t even remember a well managed franchise in the current games industry. Only one I can think is Doom…maybe
Overwatch and Dragon Age also come to mind
bungie.
Blizzard games.
EA.
Ubisoft.
All run by potatoes lmfao.
@@murdendev Yh Overwatch 2 had years of work thrown away 😂 Payday 3 at its core is pretty good and has a lot of potential. It just lacks content and could use a few improvements.
I have a huge library of games that I can go back and play, even though the servers are long dead. Gamers growing up now will not be able to say that in 10 years since nearly every modern game is "always online", so they have a built-in expiration date. And the ones that don't have a required internet connection are the kinds of games you only really play once, like God of War. Or the kind nobody should ever play, like Forspoken.
As I get older the games I missed out on when I was younger and only got what was given to me are the games I'm buying. Going back to games from the 90s and 2000s because I can just play and enjoy them. Graphics? Not so hot. Gameplay? Fantastic. Microtransactions? Not there. Internet required? No. I've been quite satisfied. Playing through the F.E.A.R. series right now.
@@Hyde472 Back then Gameplay was King, sure they'd push graphics if they could but the main focus was the gameplay always.
That's the benefit of Stylized graphics.
@@SamWulfign Yeah I'm disappointed with today's "pretty games" that generally have mid at best gameplay
@@Hyde472 That's why I've been a long time fan of Monster hunter, at the very least I can expect a mostly good time even if I'm not that satisfied with the monster roster.
@@SamWulfign I started with* freedom unite. Fantastic series.
Creative Assembly burnt a lot of there players by nickel and diming them. They have also been trend chasing for a "general" audience game and wasting time, money and resources on dumb projects only to cancel them. They need to work on their bread and butter games and earn players trust again
I've already sworn them off as a company I'd purchase from. There's better and more competent studios out there that don't have braindead AI and terrible pricing.
@actinium2754 I feel you. I haven't given up hope they can right the ship. But I certainly now wait for user reviews before buying anything new from CA.
I took a look at wh3 on the steam store cause I own 1 and 2 as well as a smattering of dlc.
Even at super heavy discount it would be 127 and change to get the complete set of stuff. I can't imagine what that would look like at full price.
Sandwiches are my bread and butter
What you have to consider with Frostpunk 2's closed Beta 8/10 not being good enough is that it was an 8/10 from diehard fans who were willing to shell out and preorder the premium editions that got them into the Beta, so their reviews are likely to be less critical than non-diehard fans, meaning that they've realised it's gonna end up with middling reviews when it hits the open market, and public reviews...
Oh you are right on the money here. I am a hardcore fan and paid for access the moment it was available. No lies, I am hella biased when it comes to Frostpunk.
I don’t think it’s good enough to finish your game after release. You’ve seen how this plays out all over the place, and while it’s good that developers “sometimes” make their customers whole by eventually finishing the game, it perpetuates a really stupid pattern where developers and publishers shove games out before they’re ready and then hold up games like No Man’s Sky and Fallout 76 to justify this behavior. I wish players were less forgiving about this because it reinforces bad behavior. For every game like No Man’s Sky, there’s 10 more games like Sucide Squad and Gotham Knights who simply try to get their customers to fund the beta test and it hurts gaming more than it helps.
Even worse, with a lot of early access games that have a good start the playerbase gets burned out over the years and when the game is finally finished it's just not popular anymore, because people have moved on from the game or just can't enjoy it anymore because they already played hundreds of hours.
at least that's what happens to me
Yeah but there are some eople that manage to make it sort-of work, like Paradox. The amount of content that ends up in a game after all is said and dones is something that you'll never be able to achiev with a normal game
@@dragoscozma8651 Paradox is an outlier, with their own problems, as a lot of their games will feel lacking without the DLC's which is quite the additional asking price!
@@catgckool428 Yes Paradox is a joke. 'Paid updates' and their games cost hundreds of dollars when they're 'finished'. They had some good games in the past, but modern Paradox has changed since then.
Cause no man sky was 90% off
PayDay3 is feeling what Civilization 6 felt, people still play Civ 5, they even had to create a launcher for Civ 5 that advertises Civ 6
it must be working because it certainly looks like way more people are playing 6 then 5.
Most people don't play Civ 5 anymore actually. While some people say that their PCs run Windows 10 and Civ 5 is a-ok, most people have difference experiences and the official position of MS and the dev team is that Civ 5 is not supported under Windows 10 (or 11). Which means most people cannot play Civ 5 anymore unless they still have a PC that runs Windows 7. Or they use linux or own a Mac.
@@Hauke-ph5uiI have civ 5 on steam with winodow 11 and still can play it
@@Hauke-ph5ui I have a licensed copy of Civ 6, but Civ 5 still runs just fine through the Steam installation on my Windows 10 PC and I prefer it.
@@Hauke-ph5ui I have every version of Windows back to '95 as virtual machines on my PC.
If you're willing to spend 10 minutes on set-up, then that's not a problem.
8/10 is not good enough is a hard thing to say. If they are being truthful, then this is a deep dive into the game needed, and its respectable that they try.
IMO 11 bit studies is one of the very few that listen to player feedback and are truly respectable
I'm so sick of games that could clearly be an offline singleplayer game requiring an internet connection, some of us don't have reliable internet and a lot of these companies don't have reliable servers either so it very quickly becomes a horrible experience.
If they build it for Internet then they can't change it. I know cause I'm a Dev
@@NiceDiggz maybe don't build it for internet, crazy groundbreaking idea I know...
That's why I'll always cheer the classics like TF2 for still being playable offline despite being designed for PVP.
@@NiceDiggz I'm not saying to rewrite the games I'm saying they shouldn't have been written that way to begin with, they could also use an internal/local server for local play if they really need it be architected that way.
Agree so much. I feel this especially with modern shooter games like Battlefield and Call of Duty. Really hate that almost all modern games require constant internet connection just to play even single player stuff sometimes.
Their is no excuse for not having offline play. That's not my problem that they made a bad system, make it right the first time.
*We heard you..... And e dont give a 💩 until we start losing money!!*
And even then we're not changing anything, just coming up with some short term scheme
@@someguycalledCh0wdah sounds about right
pretty good point on how devs these days are basically working in competition against their own work, when it comes to "sequels" or what would be more accurately described "refresh". the bigger and better your previous game was, the harder it is to make a worthwhile game that people will actually switch to. the thing is, that they usually refuse to give you things like "dlc content that was in the last game"" for free, or mechanics that worked fine as they were in the older games. or even just base level content gets removed for seemingly no reason other than to be different albeit worse than the predecessor. a lot of "x-3" games released recently have fallen into this sort of trap of trying to "innovate" or "update" their game to the modern era, but to them that means getting rid of everything that made the originals worth playing, and adding in shallow, low effort, cookie cutter game modes that have minimal progression, or sanitizing and simplifying game elements to appeal to a wider audience, at the cost of longevity and strategy/theory crafting. i guess the question is, why can't devs make huge engine updates or new versions of their older games with the same amount of content? if "x-2" is successsful and healthy, why try to make everyone buy into an objectively inferior "x-3" instead of updating "x-2" to do what you want "x-3" to do? i guess money because youre not getting those people paying for a new game AGAIN, youre relying on trying to draw players back or attract new ones, and then the main income is still going to be dlc.
so theyre in this catch 22 of "we dont want to spend more money on a new game that no one will buy, even though the resaon no one will buy it is because we refuse to put money into it." and eventually it just devolves into "well, if we just put enough money into cutscenes and graphics and marketing, we'll get enough victi- i mean customers."
you all keep reffering to them as "developers" like they are the ones that sold the game to you. Developers are Progrmmers, 3D artists, 2D artists, Voice actors, Motion capture artists. The company sold that game to you. The CEO, the investos board, and the marketing team sold that game to you. The devs only followed what the game director and the investors told them to do (make a rushed, standard, crappy game as cashgrab, to feed those poor investors and for the devs to get their salaries).
Edit: and then get laid off when the company makes a personel cut or goes bankrupt because of those investors pounding their ass till they get their money back
Indie dev team saying “we hear you” translation: we have been listening to feedback and will use it to create a better experience for you.
AAA dev team saying “we hear you” translation: shut the hell up about how to make the game better and buy our slop.
Mostly agree but in the AAA case it's the publisher's marketing department giving us the middle finger rather than the developers. In most cases anyway.
Early Access can be a the most usefull thing for a player base and a company if done right, Baldur's Gate 3 was on Early Access for a long time and Larian changed many things with player feedback.
Key point there is “if done right”, it depends on how it’s implemented, like AI, if used well, it can massively help smaller dev teams achieve triple quality faster, but if used by boobs like Andrew Wilson; it’ll be a cost cutting tool to not have as many people working on making games.
@@Scruffynerfherder10 This.
I've definetely seen both sides of the Early Access coin and yeah, for the most part, it works. But I also seen a handful of projects being either a paid concept with no game / future, or a straight up cash grab scam. Its definetly a model that has to be judged on a case-by-case basis.
I'd love to see more unexplored factions to Warhammer Total War. Araby, Ind, Amazons, Nippon, Snakefolk....but I know it is not going to happen.
We don't know what will or won't happen. We can only assume.
@@BloodwyrmWildheart Man knowing what Games Workshop literally stated about having no plans to push forward with Cathay and Kislev in the Old World last January, people will obviously lose hope at this point
@@oscarstaszky1960 yeah I'm 99% certain CA wants to do this, the big question is whether GW wants too. And considering the way they seem to have been strangely protective of their IP lately (hag heroes being effectively banned by GW as well as the thing with the repeater Ironsights) makes me doubt it will happen.
Sorry, dude, but Araby and amazonians are a never ever gonna happen situation
araby has a mod
After the Shadows of Change debacle, we've seen great DLC content changes. Thrones of Decay was brilliant. I just hope the trend continues with their next release.
The shadows of change debacle was on top of a ton of other things, lack of historical titles, the 100 million waste on hyenas and other stuff with the studios and lack of good management according to glass door reviews.
I do agree with the new dlc being good; despite the fact the price is still the same just in bits instead.
I think the price was hardly an issue.
I think the issue was more so that like you said it was a ton of things. Lack of historical titles, the flop that was Pharaoh. The devs not having good communications. Among many other issues. But i think the price wasnt bad, because if its worth it to buy 1/3 of the packs you still save 2/3rds instead of being forced to paying full.
But in general im happy that they are learning and that they do want to improve and make it better for the fans, it should have been done from the start, but better late then never.
Let's not overstate things. Thrones of decay met the mark, but it wasn't some radical swing towards insane value, it was a lot like the prior DLCs. And CA still has major management issues, they didn't get rid of enough incompetent management people. We'll see how things go but I honestly worry for CA's future despite the recent positive moves they've made.
They're still developing with this useless engine and right after massive layoffs they launched into developing 3 titles at the same time as well as maybe working on a new engine which was lunacy. Now they've had to pause work on the historical title and are proceeding with 2 games that will probably be completely messed up or lacking and disappointing because the engine is not fit for purpose nor does anyone still at the company even understand it.
Did Payday 3 ever fix the issues with progression? I heard about that and immediately was turned off. I don't want to have to play in arbitrary ways to actually progress in the game. That's something Payday 2 did well, progression always occurred when you completed missions.
Yes, mostly. XP is now given per heist completion so you dont need to farm random achievements for progression. However this left a new problem, you kind of dont have a reason to play after getting past level 100
why not log in and find out ?
Game is fun
On the pay day story... You know what valve did on a similar occasion? They ported the maps in Left 4 Dead. Sure, if the game engine changes too much, it would not be that easy, but it's still a tried and tested map/game mode, no need to extensively test it again, it's just remaking assets, nothing that they can't do for incredible cost x benefit ratio.
A STUDIO TESTING THEIR GAME BEFORE RELEASE!
we really are living in the end times.
Players: I think this and this needs a fix.
Developer: Thank you, we will really try to fix this issues.
Players: ... you dont hate us for our opinion ? and call us toxic ?.... what am i suppose to do now ?... i'm confused....
meanwhile Bethesda
Players: hey my head is missing and i'm clipping through terrain
Bethesda: working as intended
Players: could you fix it?
Bethesda: we could but won't how about you fix it for us and we'll charge people for your work.
@@kavinh10 More like:
Bethesda: Is that so? Don't worry, your fellow players would fix that for you:).
Just call a spade a spade: Server-side logic is a mix of command&control and lazy obfuscation. The client becomes thin and incomplete, smaller in size so cheaper to ship, except players are still paying for the entirety of the game which isn't available to you unless you connect to the "bigger half" of the codebase which the game publisher keeps to themselves and just works locally to them.
Exactly! Once a new game in the franchise comes out, suddenly the older one can't be accessed by anyone who paid for it. It's about control.
As a IP creator and developer myself but I also came from the world of sales. Big Ag, electronics and video games it doesnt matter the customer is your boss. That being said customers have to let a real artist present a vision before you vote on it. Art is the outcome of true talent meeting the artists comprehension of their audience. Games should follow this understanding. Take the new star wars.... no amount of sweet sweet explosions and lightsabers can change how junk it is. This is why I did all the non pixel work first. As we bring on artists they must first emersed themselves in the entire story lore, classes, combat theory, before they will be allowed to build a single thing.
11 bit made 'This War of Mine' - they will always hold a special place in my cold dead heart.
Also a few other really cool games
Great game makers
11bit studios are one of my favorite publishers atm, their studios are allowed to make interesting games that rarely receive the reception they'd deserve, just because they tend to be quite different from what you'd see and play normally
but every single one of these games tries to aim for a high quality standard, despite maybe not always being worth the effort they put in, i respect that and it makes me want to give their games a shot regardless of the type of game and if it suits my usual preferences
This actually put Frostpunk on my radar. I haven’t really enjoy a City Sim since, well, SimCity many, many years ago. Maybe Frostpunk is just what I need to give the genre another shot now, and the fact that the developers are acting as responsible as they are gives me confidence that my purchase will not be wasted.
I dont like the deluxe pricing scheme for FP2, but I can appreciate 11bit studios honesty and integrity here. Looking forward to FP2
the only reason that a game should be delayed is because the devs want to please the community
On the Payday 2 topic; it's also important to note that offline play was a feature of Payday 1. A successor losing a feature sucks (callback to when halo 4 didn't support split screen).
That fact coupled with the major Payday 2 server/network issues meant without offline play - people paid full price for a game they couldn't play.
Game developers are delaying there releases and i am 100% oke with that :)
Their
@@KingOfAllNoobs Touch grass.
@@KingOfAllNoobs Y'roue
@@Coconut-219 yroue holiday
Frostpunk devs are the guys who finished their assignments a few weeks before the deadline but thought to themself it wasn't perfect enough.
God bless them!
As much as I think video game devs should strive for perfection, I do believe that the all or nothing approach that game devs have nowadays is ultimately harming the gaming industry in the long run. From most AAA devs releasing the same live service slop we've seen for years now, to amazing games like Elden Ring and Baldurs gate. But there's so many games, so many beloved IP's or Ideas that are stuck in development hell, or are never greenelit at all. Because greedy game companies can't milk it for all it's worth, or they won't push Elden Ring and Baldurs gate numbers, and can't just settle for a good or even great game, which is why we've been in a drought of games for a long time now, with some companies like Rockstar or Bethesda, who used to be known for having a release every few years. Now are known for MAYBE releasing a game every console generation. I've heard someone say that they "Let perfection be the enemy of greatness", and I don't think I could've said it better myself. Regardless, super excited for Frostpunk 2 and wish 11 bit all the luck in the world.
The crazy part.
Fallout 3 came out in 2008. 16 years ago.
Someone was born the day fallout 3 came out, and only one *real* fallout game(from Bethesda) has come out since.
Fallout 5 will be starting development after elder scrolls releases. And afaik elder scrolls started development just after starfield.
The next fallout game might come when that kid is in college, or has kids of their own.
The issue with Bethesda isn't that their development time is slow. It's that they develop one game at a time.
They've generally been releasing a game every 2-4 years. With the exception to starfield at 5 years(which I think they got stuck in pre production while they fixed 76).
I'd like to see Bethesda create daughter companies.
A fallout team
A elder scrolls team
A starfield team
And then the main company handling the creation engine.
If these other companies follow the same release schedule we would get a new game every 4-5 years, at about the same quality we have now.
Fallout is the main Bethesda title I play, by the time it comes out in 8-10 years I'll probably move on from Bethesda games. Not because I don't want to buy, but because I just won't care.
Payday 3 not being offline is giving me flashbacks to Ghost Recon Breakpoint's forums, it's sad to realize you won't be able to go back to these games like you can with 360/ps3 era games.
Former teacher, I don't use gamepass because of the games I play. My student's used it exclusively. PC gaming is really affordable as a potato can run many of the AA games and gamepass has so many.
The best thing for CA to do would have been to put in the work to fix the realms of chaos campaign. I really liked the vortex campaign both in terms of the more focused scope of the campaign but also the idea of having a shared goal between you and the AI outside of general conquest. In previous titles we had really interesting shared mechanics like the senate from rome 1, papacy in med 2, research / tech tree in empire, and realm divide in shogun 2 (this is a bit of a dynamic end game mechanic), each of these mechanics interacted with the campaigns in dynamic ways (which you could interact with back and influence) and added an interesting layer to them beyond sandbox conquest. It also had the benefit of further differentiating campaigns from one and another as the mechanics along with the baseline dynamic mechanics of the game would create different outcomes and situations for the factions / nations that you are up against. That being said CA have generally moved away from them with rome 2 to warhammer, until warhammer 2 came out and reintroduced them with the vortex campaign which was a move in the right direction in someways despite its flaws, and I like how this type of mechanic can give you a goal, and also give a way to victory outside of conquest alongside the previously mentioned benefits.
Unfortunately I suspect CA will take the the wrong lesson from this, in that they will think players don't like the goal oriented / global mechanics / shared victory of something like the vortex or realms (or the previous mentioned OG total war games mechanics), and that players only want the more sandboxy experience going forward, not that the implementation of these things was deeply flawed and players would like it if the execution was better.
The idea that DEVS have any such thoughts about reviews is ridiculous. Publishers most likely have unrealistic expectations on how their products should be received. Going after developers in this way is utterly detached from reality. Developers have no job security, are underpaid and overworked. Most of them are gamers just like you and almost all of them hate their game more than anyone else by the time it’s published, even if it’s a masterpiece.
I’m sorry but these sorts of sensationalist click bait titles don’t guide the discussion in a productive way. They won’t reveal the publishers pulling the levers on these decisions and only make the already terrible work environments worse for the people actually making the games.
I'll believe CA after 3 consecutive years of 0 anti-consumer moves. I'm not even asking them to go out of their way to do good things, like adding chat to multiplayer or fixing their spaghetti code, just an absence of poor behaviour. I know it'll never happen but I'm open to being proven wrong.
I think the big problem with modern sequels like Payday 3 and Cities Skyline 2 is the overbearing amount of mechanics and features added through countless DLC in the previous entries which make it hard to match the amount of content in the new ones. Back in the day, if you were lucky you'd get one expansion, maybe two which added some new mechanics, but overall it was easier to integrate and expand upon those while developping the sequel.
I just wanna say that your ending song is responsible for the amount of times I've replayed Mass Effect.
Well, this problem had happened before to be honest, it's just that a lot of younger people aren't aware. It's funny when I'm not even 50 and I feel old. I said a decade ago we were heading here with the current DLC and Live Service practices, and it's funny that even after comments here on youtube and other platforms, people seem to just be realizing the issue now.
But yeah, as far back as things like BBS Door Games, and paid MUDs like Gemstone and Kesmai, you had issues with them paying for features and access and then realizing that people might not want to reset things and lose all that to go to a new version that might simply be better on the back end. You also had cases where even that far back they were experimenting with dumbing things down as even among intellectuals that could access this stuff, not everyone was equal, and of course they ran into the problem that when they made the dumbed down version for people who complained, a lot of the established player base was just going to stay with the game they preferred.
You could even see some of this where you might have the same game series competing with itself. You could go to a game store and say find different Ultima games all on the same shelf. You can see how with Ultima 6 a lot of the core fan base fell off as it was prettier, but lacked a lot of the depth of 5, so when they did 7 they tried to do a compromise on that as far as the sophistication of puzzles and such. The whole "Test Of Truth" in the "Forge Of Virture" expansion pack for U7 was accused of being a gimmick to sell calls to tip lines and stuff.
At any rate, one thing many people do not realize is that in a lot of old RPG games there used to be mechanisms to transfer your characters and some (but not all) of their loot between games. Some weirdly even let you "translate" a favorite character from another company's game to their game... which was always amusing as some concepts didn't mesh right. I've been of the opinion that especially with loot box based games, if they want to do series and such they should come up with a way to transfer such things between installments and maintain their value. If they were smart they might even find a way to make money off of trade markets. See one reason why I avoid a lot of popular game series is how the gambling mechanics work, I find it darkly amusing that people will say spend so much money gambling for "card drops" in things like WWE games or FIFA or CoD or whatever, knowing that in 1 or 2 years another one will come out. Of course a lot of that stuff is designed for the lowest human denominator, it's not surprising there are issues with other games.
To be fair, I think if a company like Blizzard did ever make a "World Of Warcraft 2" and then found a way to at least transfer cosmetics... updated to the new game engine's graphics, they would find the work worth it in terms of player retention, especially as the game went cross-generational and some things from the old game would of course be mementos that are now unobtainable, but also relatively harmless. I've long heard the whole issue of investment in the game (time and otherwise) is why they never decided to try and make a direct sequel. Series like "Payday" could do the same thing, to be fair I'd be shocked if it wasn't relatively simple for someone to make an AI that could just emulate an item from an old game visually in a new one, especially with all the concern over knockoffs already.
As far as game mechanics go, to be fair, things need to move forward, and sequels should just be more complicated versions of what came before that expand on that. If you want an entirely new player base, start a new franchise, and then you can justify building from the basics. Realize though, too many "introductory games" is always going to have the opposite effect of retention. That is what sort of killed turn based RPGs, too many people made simplistic ones, and people who graduated from them found less and less places to go. While I don't care for how they did it exactly, if you look at say "Owlcat" and the success they had with their "Pathfinder" games being set up for people who either have to mess with the RNG or really know what they are doing, you can sort of see that the market for that exists. That said I think it would work best if you say started a series as JRPG-easy, and then ramped it up. Make a 4th or 5th expansion that is as hard as "Return To Werdna" and even if most people can't do it, they will appreciate the fact that such a challenge exists and many people will do it... eventually.
The player count went from a few hundred to a consistent 2-3k (steam charts) after the update, ngl though, after having played and having experienced the progression changes, new heist, etc, it still needs a perk system change (in my opinion), more guns (obviously), more heists (also obviously), and just more reasons to play the game in general, thank you for coming to my Ted Talk.
So refreshing that a dev delays their game to, you know, finish it. I'm happy to wait until they think it's done.
Frostpunk is a game i have quite a few hours in remember foundly and still haven't beaten the first challenge. I need to get back to it
K,lmk how it goes
The challenge campaigns are great - the first few are testing how well you can handle specific mechanics from the main story, while On the Edge and Last Autumn have some entirely new twists that are very fun.
Totally understandable, if your most dedicated fans that pre-ordered the premium edition are only giving you an 8/10 with complaints about the UI and how some mechanics are not clear, then rgar means the game is at best a 6/10 for the average players which means a total skip.
Server vs client software has a simple solution that has been around since the invention of multiplayer. Separate them and allow them to be configured to run on a LAN.
i love seeing the turnaround. More of this please. (both from developers and from this channel)
11bit understands the realities: You have one shot to sell your game, better make it count. Customers are less bothered by delays than they are by a sub par gaming experience. At least as long as you are not an AAA company.
frostpunk 2 felt like a voting simulator rather than a apocalyptic city builder. Glad they hold back the game a little more.
Man.. 11 bit is turning out to be my favorite studio
Its absolutely bewildering that payday 3 is in the state it is. The willful ignorance of its most dedicated players is absolutely insane. Releasing paid DLC when the game is still painfully unfinished is just shameful.
Im still amazed at the state that warhammer 3 was at release and even last year. It was a huge step backwards in almost every way when compared to warhammer 2. It was like the devs used a old version of the game to start over and build up from again when all they needed to do was create a expansion to warhammer 2. Its good to see warhammer 3 is getting into a good state now, but after like 2 years?
Imagine being roasted on twitter by malware
Never cared for Opera, what did they do?
@@amongdrip8073 general info collection like most other browsers, also despite claiming to be different and for more tech savvy people, its built on the chrome base browser code(i dont rememberthe exact name of it), so its basically a reskin of chrome which steams even more of your data
The funny thing is that they dont understand that their games just suck. Like everything is bad from gameplay to story.
I feel bad for the devs, they get so much hate for shit that's really not their fault.
The issue is shareholders. Always has been.
Immortal empires IS the game in WH3 just like mortal empires was for WH2, how these CA devs dont understand this just shows how far detached they are from the player base.
At least Vortex gave you a ton of money and XP.
11bit knows that people love frostpunk so if they are gonna stop updating it and make a new one it needs to be great.
im not sold on the direction they have gone but it looks good still, we will see.
i was hoping to play it sooner than later but i would much rather they delay it if they feel it can be polished more.
This ^^. I'm not a fan of politics being the main thing about it and the cold/storms being on a side note. In fact its the thing about FP2 that I like the least. I there's enough politics in my real life and I don't care to play it in a game. I'll still play it don't get me wrong but, I don't see me playing as much as the first game which I still enjoy playing.
I remember The Crew that had it infrastructure on servers, so no offline mode.
And look where it has gone.
And ill never, most likely, buy Payday 3. Why?
Well, ive seen a lot of dlcs for a single game, hell, i bought a lot of dlcs in Payday 2.
No more.
If someone says "but what about devs, what about them being fed", alright then, answer me this.
How does "Hello Games" surviving then? No Man's Sky doesn't have any dlcs, the game only receiving updates, which are completely free if you have base game.
As a player of FP and playing the FP2 beta it is a huge difference but the fan base loved it even if city planning and management is different. But they have always been open about that and always directly communicate with their fans for all the games they produce.
frostpunk 2 and kcd 2 is making 2024 a good year for up and coming studios making games focused on quality and long-term reputation. perhaps the begginings of a new generation of development studios?
It's good that more studios are going back to the OLD Bioware stance of "release it when it's ready, not when marketing wants it". After several industry disasters where marketing morons dictated release dates and dropped ridiculously broken games on their customers, it seems that sentiment is swinging back to nurturing fans instead of stealing wallets. People forget that marketing is for selling a product - they have nothing to do with actually creating the product and always seem to take the short view of "make sales" over "deliver a product that sells itself".
Yea because Immortal Empires is how you get value for having purchased the last 2 Warhammer games and its DLCs. Any other campaigns are kinda lackluster because they lack that.
Please, I hardly ever pick a game straight from the oven. Too much chance to get burned, or get something undercooked. I will wait 6 months to a year until they fix shit or write it off as lost cause. Annnnd if after that time price drops under 50 bucks...well patience brings its own rewards.
Devil's advocate here but the fact that they put it so much in their favour by using not just fans who pre-order but the ultra-fans who pre-order deluxe editions, and it STILL comes back 8/10 is an extreme warning sign. It means they couldn't get anyone biased enough to push that to 9/10 or 10/10 even with the diehard fans.
Hopefully the relation you spoke off when talking about 11Bit Studios will stay- we seen a lot of devs and studios who squandered this sacred relation with gamer once their hit the peak of being liked just to backstab everyone because "they had good stocks of public goodwill".
They need to expand on the equipment system used for Daniel in Realms of Chaos. By far, the best part of that campaign. Having individual slots for gear, with associated Lord visuals was super nice.
It's interesting how many people underestimate the possible adoption of xbox on pc. Over the last generation in particular, but in general, over the last few years a lot of console players have pivoted to pc gaming, and with that I don't think they carry that cult support for Steam. In particular in a space where socials are now dominated by Discord, the appeal that steams profiles and chat system once offered are a bit of a relic. Anecdotally my entire friend group exclusively uses Xbox to the point where its a hard sell to play games with them that aren't on gamepass.
Your friends only play games on gamepass? Give them my condolences
Discord is okay, but they need to purge every ideologue working at the company at every level, that and rethink their monetization plan in the long-term. Discord has great core functionality, but all of the extremital stuff is horribly implemented & likely is costing alot and taking development resources to make. It's already not looking in good shape after just a few years, one or both of those issues is likely to sink the company if left unchecked. People will just go back to teamspeak or some new alternative will arrive.
Speaking of offline play, I really wish sea of thieves had an offline mode to play. Safer seas mode seems like it could be turned into an offline mode.
Couldn’t play for a couple of weeks due to being in a place with no wifi
they need to freaking update the UI for total warhammer for gods sake. No skill queue, no building queue, terrible message notification swamping, i should not have to install addons just to make then game less tedious and bloated
About the entire Total War Warhammer 3 controversy, there are a few things we should consider about the subject. The fact they said the DLC will be released in the back end of the year indicates the DLC is in initial stages of production, so it's possible that Legend's Leaks were true and the community's negative response to the proposal made them change the plans. Another evidence is because they only showed ogre lord e ogte units in the video, khorne and greenskins are still in preproduction.
The problem with Paradox having Warhammer 3 as the "Forever" game is this: They NEED to add a way for new players to get into it that don't start playing and buying DLC from day one. One that doesn't cost Hundreds of dollars, and/or has a compromised experience if you don't buy the 20 DLC they already put out. I would like to play a few of their games, but unless you wanna go and pay $300+ at one time, the game I would get to play is pretty shit compared to the discussion or video I heard/saw about the game, currently, that sparked my interest. They need to do the MMO thing if they are gonna go "Live Service" and give people the older DLC when you buy the new expansion. Until they come up with a more reasonable way for people to get into their games that weren't there form day 1 then I, and many people I know who are also interested in several of their games, are not gonna mess with any of them. I'm not gonna play a game that doiesn't even resemble the discussions or videos I saw about it, nor am I gonna hand over hundreds of dollars to get into ONE game either, especially a game I haven't even played. $20 here and there over a few years is fine if someone is playing it from day 1, but it's totally retarded to expect that they will EVER get new players to get into the game if they continue with this model. Look at how Payday 3 is doing if you don't think it's the case. Payday 3 was abandoned by people who ALREADY like that franchise because the base game is WORSE than the previous Payday 2 game. Someone new to Warhammer TODAY is NOT gonna pay you $100s of dollars, nor are they gonna play the shitty bare bones release version of it. Even if they do play it, expecting that launch version of Payday 3 is gonna be putting a good enough foot forward to entice someone into investing hundreds into the game is ludicrous. They need to get real. It's time for Paradox and others to fix their DLC structure and start making bundles, or free version of past DLC when buying the latest one, or SOMTHING to allow new people to get into their games without overspending or playing a compromised version of the game if they want to ever grow their audience.
Yeah, on top of all that CA has been acting very anti-consumer for years too, and the Warhammer titles are so much visuals over substance. It would be one thing if the game was AMAZING and cost 400$, but it's just mediocre and costs 400$.
If the devs need more time, that's fine. Besides. We already got 50+ games in our backlog.
as someone that played the original Frostpunk, I am glad they are making Frostpunk 2 with a focus on the afterwards towards society building back up
"only positive reviews" but low player count is indicative of those people who would otherwise have been a "negative review" not purchasing the DLC - this doesn't mean it's good now, it just means everyone else has already abandoned all interest.
Man, I will never buy games CA ever again. There's a Chinese game that play similar to Total War called Ancient Warfare: The Han Dynasty which is far better than any CA games
17bit not only offered beta to Deluxe users to actually test, they invited anyone living in their city just to test it, and I think one of TH-camrs literally went to Poland exactly for that.
17bit is the last studio along Warhorse I trust and love to this day...
I use gamepass every month on PC, after steam raised their default prices even indies became expensive in Brazil, so having games like Maquette, Still Wakes The Deep, Jussant and Botanical Garden in an extremely cheap monthly fee is really great.
so those dev's actually produced a 'beta' , a slice of the finished game, a game that can be changed...
instead of what we normally get a 'demo' , a demo of the final game, where only minor tweaks or final polishing touches can be made. basically the game is done
good. great to hear
For Frostpunk 2 I dont think its that 8/10 isnt good enough, but that the feedback received made them realise what needed to be fixed/changed.
I think if the feedback wasnt so constructive but they still got an 8/10 they might have gone ahead as planned.
Either way its great to see developers listening to the community and doing something about it
Or those so called Rich Gamers trying to change to Game
@@NiceDiggz What? hows that related to what I said?
Feels like you are just trying to needlessly throw shade at them.
They got the beta, provided feedback and the devs listened
I was clarifying that it wasnt the 8/10 meant it wasnt good enough
But it was "not good enough" probably because the devs decided based on the feedback received that there were things needing to be fixed regardless of the high rating
If the feedback wasnt something the devs felt the need to change, it woudlnt have matter whether the "so called Rich Gamers" where "trying to change to Game". Weird take to be honest
@Bellular News What you said in this video is the biggest issue coming from CA which is down to how they communicate. "a full on forever game" is what CA should have done with the WH series to begin with, instead of splintering it for max profit(60$ expansion packs['games'] and cheap barely maintained DLCs that sell at thousands percentage of profit) but despite them alluding it in this video the reality is that the C-suit barely changed and from former inside sources it seems most likely CA will continue on the disposable games path.
Rich might want to continue to support WH but everything points for CA abandoning it as soon as 40k be released with him having nothing to say in the matter, it's already barely maintained (just look at the amount of bugs that popup due to lack of QA/lack of dev time to fix those with each path) or the lack of improvements to any core game features or even a promise to do so (sieges are a great example) after the entire mass CA should have shifted more work towards WH not less as its clearly seems to be the case.
The worst part is that you reading it 'wrong' (and I am taking a calculated bet in saying it) is due to the lack of clarity in CA to commit to keeping WH alive, this is why they only talked about more 'content' instead of fixes to Sieges ,AI, AR (identifying the issues people complain about, how to fix them).
If the same guys who work on Frostpunk 2 (which already looked amazing in my opinion, that game is jaw dropping - one of the best in game politics systems I have ever seen - this is what I was hoping to see for Rome II) were handling WH, we already would had not only clearity of what is the product will look like by its time CA will chose to move on but we will already would have seen real improvements to the game as more resources would be reinvested into it as it is super profitable and there is no reason besides greed to not shift more of it back to the players.
I have not played Realms Of Chaos even one time. Its always Immortal Empires
Payday 3 lacks of content is the last of the game problem. At launch the game didn't even have an unready button. The game most problematic part is the lack of replayability
Payday HEARS us? 4 months, the bug that partially resets a character every login on payday 2... if that game, with the majority of players mattered, they'd have fixed it... or just made the comunity items and so forth permemently unlocked... but .. nope.
I get 11bits intentions but releasing FP2 at the same time as Space Marine 2 is very ambitious, don't be surprised if it slumps on release
The gaming industry sucks because people buy stuff they know they won't like.... I have bought 6 games in the last 2 years,
Lethal Company
TWWH3
Helldivers 2
Ultrakill
Contraband Police
Chroma Squad
I have throughly enjoyed all these games. I have 150 hours in HD2 and 82 hours in WH3, despite the fact I brought it at the end of May...
We want stuff to get better, be PICKY about what you buy
as much as I understand and agree with 11bit delaying Frostpunk 2 (I was a Beta "apologist", tolerating a bit more of what could be considered failure points) but damn it still hurts to have to wait another 2 months after being overhyped for the last 3
When I had game pass, I played exclusively on PC.
Reality stared these clowns in the face before they released their games and they went ahead anyway. They are now facing consequences which aren’t nearly harsh enough.
Compare that with how Arc System Works have become in recent years where they basically stated out loud that they outright ignore any people who brings criticisms to their games.
Warframe heard the complains abou the new "Heirloom Pack" being too expensive (40 dollars, for 2 skins), and thry just made them purchasable by in-game coins, and we can buy each item individually.
I hope FrostPunk 2 doesn't shift too far from the original vision enough. FP1 being about granular building selections and placement is one thing and a very cool village simulator type game, but it makes sense that FP2 should be zoomed out one level where you're placing districts and setting policies rather than toying with individual paths and buildings
Hopefully an FP3 would be zoomed out further dealing with cities like Civilization does
I pretty much only play Payday 2 solo, because Randoms will only go Loud, which I do not want, I want to try and do things in Stealth, my whole build I based on it. So being forced to play with randoms in Payday 3, is a huge fuck no.
If I can get friends to play Payday 2 with me the few times, we actually speak about what we will do before starting, so we all can be geared up and ready for it.
I even proved that with randoms it doesn't matter since they will *Always* go loud.
Shadow Raid (A mission), which is Stealth Required. Random, ran in, set the alarm off, made us fail the mission in less than 20 seconds.
The Dimond Heist, Stealth Optional, even asked everyone to let me do Stealth. Everyone agreed on that. Map starts, random runs in, starts shooting. Then complained I wasn't doing anything, because every time I looked out of hiding, I would be instantly Downed.
After that I refused to play with Randoms, and those were not the only two times, I had to hammer it in on my ex-friend, that Randoms will only do Loud, they are Incapable of doing Stealth.
And this is something Overkill knows about, they have the player data for it.
payday 3 is the great example "everything great in previous game is no where to be found in the new one. instead of improving and embrace the successful of the 2nd game they decided to do something new that no players want"
when i said "Always online" will be the game down fall....PD3 proved that
11 bit have an amazing record for immersive and original thematic storytelling.
I trust them.
Fromsoft looks at their player base and says "Hmmm, They can take on challanges...Nice, make em harder." Then the player base gets happy because that's what they like.
Other companies look at their player base and go "Hmmm, They spent money to buy this game...Nice, make the microtransactions more expensive" Then they wonder why they're getting hated on.
Creative Assembly likes to ban Players who have critiques or legitimate complaints.