00:00:00 "Who will win a major tournament first?" moky montage 00:01:34 Welcome to Fourside Fights 00:05:11 New Major Winners 00:11:19 Emotional Wins (that the Panelists have witnessed) 00:20:01 Best ICs Run of All Time? 00:28:30 Mid/Low-Tier Secondaries 00:37:15 Scariest Character/Person to Fight on Big Stage 00:41:38 Overall DPG Experience (Two Day vs Three Day Majors) 00:49:43 Tango: a Doubles Major 01:00:12 Full Bloom 2025 announced 01:04:51 LACS Rivals 01:09:31 Tiebreaker 01:15:23 The Winner 01:15:41 Fourside Fight 01:18:28 Thanks for Watching
BEFORE WAFFLES SPOKE I KNEW HED SAY PP M2K ROM 3 Im old too and that is one of my favs for sure. Filled with classic lines like “Its so quiet you can hear a rat piss on cotton” and “pp is on him like white on rice on a paper plate in a snowstorm”
bro at 26:05 i have 0 idea what unsure is talking about. first off, 4 pummels is literally not allowed. second in no world do icies get 75% off a single grab with the current wobbling rule. the double blizzard nobble is only unmashable after other regrab/handoff stuff in the first place, and even including unstaled Fthrow damage the in-grab sequence only does 39%. man's pulling numbers straight outa hokey town for that one. even if he looked at the damage that sequence would do if the 2 blizzards and ftilt hit when the opponent wasn't grabbed (attacks that hit in a grab deal half damage) that's only 57%. is he saying that icies get 75% if they do the double blizzard nobble, handoff to nana, handoff *back to popo* and do it again do 75%? in which case yeah but i very much doubt that's what he means...
@@Kosher3864okay, so he's just ignoring nana rng? he's not talking about edge handoffs at that point, but they don't talk about RNG at all either. in which case why 75%? why not just talk about how if they get two or three good nana throws icies just kill you? it wouldn't make sense to go "yeah but if icies get one instance of good RNG they deal 75%"
@@jackzilla321 look man us icies are just tired of misinfo, it's hard to cut slack on people not getting their point across clearly when stuff like that inevitably comes up in a discussion around nerfing your character and the people saying it don't care they misunderstood.
One thing I think we are learning (re-learning) in 2024 is that the tier list is still a tierlist of melee characters. Bad characters in melee are still melee characters, exploiting all the same engine and character specific weaknesses as the top tiers. It's so easy to play all your local mid-level mid/low tiers and tell yourself these are just 'bad' characters and so are irrelevant once you learn the one trick. But they're still a MELEE character. So Roy may be D or F tier but it's all relative, the tier list isn't linear either. Anyway, eventually I think they'll die out again. The whack-a-mole can't continue forever. (unless the scene starts to grow massively again and a new generation has to go through this over again).
I think the whack a mole goes on forever. No one has or will ever have the mental capacity to master(or be good enough) every matchup at the same time.
27:50 I totally agree with Unsure's point even if not every piece of it was agreeable. I definitely think that the conversation will come up again in a serious way.
i think it's stupid. having 2 characters acting together allows you to do uninteractive things, that's a core fact of melee. any doubles team except ganon ganon can wobble and EVERY doubles team can do handoff stuff. The whole "uninteractive stuff isn't melee" is just making up rules that don't exist
what is the conversation gonna be lol i feel like if you dont like icies at this point it's more salt than anything, wobbling is understandable because it's boring and an infinite but now there's skill + it's not infinite, we already nerfed a character who isn't winning if we did it again it'd literally just be because people don't want to learn the matchup
@@user-bkey I think people will get frustrated and complain about it whether they are correct or not because they will get upset and get angry about it. I'm not condoning whether the conversation about handoffs is valid or not. I do think it will happen though, because frustration and complaints infect discussion in the community like the plague. "if you dont like icies at this point it's more salt than anything" There are more than enough people who are salty vs. the character that I think it will get brought up. "we already nerfed a character who isn't winning if we did it again it'd literally just be because people don't want to learn the matchup" Plenty of people don't want to learn the matchup either. Again, I'm nt saying it will be for good reasons, I simply agree that it will become a conversation again, regardless of how justified it is.
Messed up how the LACS Rivals question became irrelevant like one hour after when Ludwig released the edited lineup 😔 (istg ludwig is the only one who can announce all his details 24 hours before the event)
I think doubles should be draft pick. This eliminates double fox but in a cleaner less arbitrary way. Every team would have to also practice a foxless duo to be competitive, I think it would be littt
I'd respect the Mango shit talk more if his last 4 major wins weren't all carried by double eliminating Cody. Spacies and mid tiers are his actual good matchups Edit: Plup beat Mango Armada and Hbox twice at Genesis 5, the 2017 Top 3 back to back in ascending order. M2K was no longer a problem matchup, and Leffen hadn't yet become a problem matchup for Plup, his one problem matchup outside of Hbox was like... SFAT
I mean, joshman, aklo, and moky have been proving themselves all year. Do i think aklo and joshman are gonna win a major anytime soon? Who knows, prob not, but theyre getting there fs. Nikki is hype, i wanna see him improve
Alright, i haven't finished the video, or the subject, but as a bozo who has had a full time job and a life for a few years, i would rather a 2 day major every time as a viewer. Being able to go and see top 32 all the way to grands is perfect for someone who can't get a whole 2 or 3 days to HOPEFULLY see there favorite player (Especially if they aren't a lock for top 8)
unsure is pretty funny and i wish he got to talk more, completely disagree with what he said about handoffs tho there's gonna be a discussion about handoffs in the future but i don't think it'll amount to anything, icies get dumb damage off of grabs compared to everyone else but is having unique strengths a bad thing, no imo. and also bro if someone plays fox and they get grabbed in the corner 4 times they need to hold that idgaf
he has a very pleasant voice and is an upstanding member of the community. he was so wrong about ice climbers to make me write a comment so that alone makes him a good guest.
00:00:00 "Who will win a major tournament first?" moky montage
00:01:34 Welcome to Fourside Fights
00:05:11 New Major Winners
00:11:19 Emotional Wins (that the Panelists have witnessed)
00:20:01 Best ICs Run of All Time?
00:28:30 Mid/Low-Tier Secondaries
00:37:15 Scariest Character/Person to Fight on Big Stage
00:41:38 Overall DPG Experience (Two Day vs Three Day Majors)
00:49:43 Tango: a Doubles Major
01:00:12 Full Bloom 2025 announced
01:04:51 LACS Rivals
01:09:31 Tiebreaker
01:15:23 The Winner
01:15:41 Fourside Fight
01:18:28 Thanks for Watching
How are these intros always so good? Lmao
6 years of practice
damn that intro made me tear up
Amazing production
What an intro
Hot take, aklo's link isnt a gimmick, hes just outplaying the marth players
Whoever told you thats a hot take, hand them this "L"
BEFORE WAFFLES SPOKE I KNEW HED SAY PP M2K ROM 3
Im old too and that is one of my favs for sure. Filled with classic lines like “Its so quiet you can hear a rat piss on cotton” and “pp is on him like white on rice on a paper plate in a snowstorm”
Great episode! Also damn Jmook has a sick trophy display behind him
Brooo unsure’s takes got me fuming. That ain’t my melee
I think the best ICs run of all time is still Chudat at Pound 2 because it's still the only time ICs won a major.
wow what an excellent cast of kooky characters
i've mentioned it before but i'm forecasting a luigi renaissance as IC's become more present in top level play
ICs are 2% of the top 50, also Nicki is like 15-0 on Jah Ridin
@@kkmac7247 nice
@@kkmac7247 but Jah Ridin' is 1-0 on Jmook
also m1sf1re's gonna be top 100 next year
bro at 26:05 i have 0 idea what unsure is talking about.
first off, 4 pummels is literally not allowed. second in no world do icies get 75% off a single grab with the current wobbling rule. the double blizzard nobble is only unmashable after other regrab/handoff stuff in the first place, and even including unstaled Fthrow damage the in-grab sequence only does 39%. man's pulling numbers straight outa hokey town for that one.
even if he looked at the damage that sequence would do if the 2 blizzards and ftilt hit when the opponent wasn't grabbed (attacks that hit in a grab deal half damage) that's only 57%.
is he saying that icies get 75% if they do the double blizzard nobble, handoff to nana, handoff *back to popo* and do it again do 75%? in which case yeah but i very much doubt that's what he means...
The glazing is extreme, he literally says handoff off in the first seconds of the timestamp.
@@Kosher3864okay, so he's just ignoring nana rng? he's not talking about edge handoffs at that point, but they don't talk about RNG at all either.
in which case why 75%? why not just talk about how if they get two or three good nana throws icies just kill you? it wouldn't make sense to go "yeah but if icies get one instance of good RNG they deal 75%"
@@nickq8093because it’s a game show where I’m asking ppl to improv under pressure, do you wanna be on an ep
@@jackzilla321 look man us icies are just tired of misinfo, it's hard to cut slack on people not getting their point across clearly when stuff like that inevitably comes up in a discussion around nerfing your character and the people saying it don't care they misunderstood.
@@Kosher3864 yep. big skibidi glazing like a sussy girlboss
One thing I think we are learning (re-learning) in 2024 is that the tier list is still a tierlist of melee characters. Bad characters in melee are still melee characters, exploiting all the same engine and character specific weaknesses as the top tiers. It's so easy to play all your local mid-level mid/low tiers and tell yourself these are just 'bad' characters and so are irrelevant once you learn the one trick. But they're still a MELEE character. So Roy may be D or F tier but it's all relative, the tier list isn't linear either.
Anyway, eventually I think they'll die out again. The whack-a-mole can't continue forever. (unless the scene starts to grow massively again and a new generation has to go through this over again).
I think the whack a mole goes on forever.
No one has or will ever have the mental capacity to master(or be good enough) every matchup at the same time.
27:50 I totally agree with Unsure's point even if not every piece of it was agreeable. I definitely think that the conversation will come up again in a serious way.
i think it's stupid. having 2 characters acting together allows you to do uninteractive things, that's a core fact of melee. any doubles team except ganon ganon can wobble and EVERY doubles team can do handoff stuff. The whole "uninteractive stuff isn't melee" is just making up rules that don't exist
what is the conversation gonna be lol i feel like if you dont like icies at this point it's more salt than anything, wobbling is understandable because it's boring and an infinite but now there's skill + it's not infinite, we already nerfed a character who isn't winning if we did it again it'd literally just be because people don't want to learn the matchup
@@user-bkey
I think people will get frustrated and complain about it whether they are correct or not because they will get upset and get angry about it. I'm not condoning whether the conversation about handoffs is valid or not. I do think it will happen though, because frustration and complaints infect discussion in the community like the plague.
"if you dont like icies at this point it's more salt than anything" There are more than enough people who are salty vs. the character that I think it will get brought up.
"we already nerfed a character who isn't winning if we did it again it'd literally just be because people don't want to learn the matchup" Plenty of people don't want to learn the matchup either.
Again, I'm nt saying it will be for good reasons, I simply agree that it will become a conversation again, regardless of how justified it is.
Absolutely unhinged mango hating from this unsure fellow...
one of our finest crack smokers
I mean just look at him
kinda crazy that DK didn't make the thumbnail. This really is the year of the mid tier
dk suffering from success
Messed up how the LACS Rivals question became irrelevant like one hour after when Ludwig released the edited lineup 😔
(istg ludwig is the only one who can announce all his details 24 hours before the event)
Intro... chills......
Is jmook streaming from a gameboy camera?
ONISSER IS SUCH A FUCKING DEEP CUT LOLL
I think doubles should be draft pick. This eliminates double fox but in a cleaner less arbitrary way. Every team would have to also practice a foxless duo to be competitive, I think it would be littt
53:44 wouldnt the rankings encourage static teams?
Yes!!
I'd respect the Mango shit talk more if his last 4 major wins weren't all carried by double eliminating Cody. Spacies and mid tiers are his actual good matchups
Edit: Plup beat Mango Armada and Hbox twice at Genesis 5, the 2017 Top 3 back to back in ascending order. M2K was no longer a problem matchup, and Leffen hadn't yet become a problem matchup for Plup, his one problem matchup outside of Hbox was like... SFAT
I mean, joshman, aklo, and moky have been proving themselves all year. Do i think aklo and joshman are gonna win a major anytime soon? Who knows, prob not, but theyre getting there fs.
Nikki is hype, i wanna see him improve
Aklo got 2nd at the last 3 majors so I think he is quite likely to win a major soon.
THANK YOU
I didnt know there was a doubles circuit, it must not have been advertised well enough
Like if you have a bracket, and theres cool clips and commentary moments, then they should still be floating around, but there isnt?
Finally get Contra on FSF lets go Connor
oh i guess i missed the other ones with him in the past. but still.
Lmao bro was not locked in
@@harpot678 disagree, he spoke the truth about handoffs vs wobbling and many other things. locked af
@@shabe99 No I mean you, he's been in like 3
@@harpot678 TRUUUUUUUUE you got me
58:56 everyone gets excited about Armada
These openings get me everytime man. So good and funny.
Nice win, Kurtis
Alright, i haven't finished the video, or the subject, but as a bozo who has had a full time job and a life for a few years, i would rather a 2 day major every time as a viewer. Being able to go and see top 32 all the way to grands is perfect for someone who can't get a whole 2 or 3 days to HOPEFULLY see there favorite player (Especially if they aren't a lock for top 8)
Can Philip the AI win 100 straight games on unranked??
unsure is pretty funny and i wish he got to talk more, completely disagree with what he said about handoffs tho
there's gonna be a discussion about handoffs in the future but i don't think it'll amount to anything, icies get dumb damage off of grabs compared to everyone else but is having unique strengths a bad thing, no imo. and also bro if someone plays fox and they get grabbed in the corner 4 times they need to hold that idgaf
unsure with consistent poor takes throughout the entire episode lol
He was stirring the pot with the wobbling take but it was fire
say something nice about him
he has a very pleasant voice and is an upstanding member of the community. he was so wrong about ice climbers to make me write a comment so that alone makes him a good guest.
@@leadenstride o7
Preach it, Unsure. Handoffs is wobbling with more inputs.
MOKYYYY BEST FOX IN THE WORLDDDD
No lmfao
Where chroma at???