The words dispassionate and nice aren't synonyms. If the words Former Cardassian Oppressor are an accurate description of his background, which it actually is, then technically that is impartial. In the English language, as with probably most languages, the word "oppressor" is usually described as having a negative connotation. You as a listener/reader are adding an emotional tone to the word that may not have been intended. Even if it was intended, reacting as Garak did, in a passionate manner, doesn't do anything to foster "dispassionate" debate. If Garak was interested in having a dispassionate debate, he wouldn't have been offended by the use of the name tag. Would it bother a Vulcan if his name tag read "Former Member of the Isolationist Movement", the answer is no.
Alex could it be argued that because Garak worked as a spy the Bajorans wouldn't likely know what his work was therefore assumed to be that of an oppressor whether or not its true its problematic as it does create negative connotations. It'd be more prudent to start from a neutral base saying if he confirms (I guess if hed lie abt this to lol it is Garak)that he at least worked for the cardassian administration then going on to figure out whether or not the administration was worthy of the label oppressive. Quickly it should be noted obviously it was but a historical review of the occupation should start from the begining where no one had committed a wrong I.e before occupation and worked on that to the end. Using oppressor from the get go is a form of rhetoric to discredit any opposing view he would bring up in the eyes of the audience.
"Alex could it be argued that because Garak worked as a spy the Bajorans wouldn't likely know what his work was therefore assumed to be that of an oppressor whether or not its true its problematic as it does create negative connotations." Hi Michael. People were well aware by this time in the series that Garak was a spy for the Obsidian Order. Even if the Bajoran's did not know specifically what he did, his participation is implied. Not to mention, he was on the space station at times during the occupation which is where he grew his distaste for Gul Dukat. " It'd be more prudent to start from a neutral base saying if he confirms (I guess if hed lie abt this to lol it is Garak)that he at least worked for the cardassian administration then going on to figure out whether or not the administration was worthy of the label oppressive." This is specifically the problem I was alluding to. Neutral relative to what? The Bajoran's? The Cardassian's? The Federation? Odo? What is neutral? The closest thing to a neutral base is an accurately descriptive title. Oppressor, whether you like it or not, was accurate of Garak, Gul Dukat, and pretty much any Cardassian that participated in some shape or form in the occupation. Not all Cardassian's were oppressors, but many of the Cardassian's we got to know in the series were. I'd imagine that the Bajoran's who participated in the event held similar title's such as Bajoran resistance fighter, and civilian. Maybe you could argue that it might have been better to give Garak the title "Cardassian Spy". I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to that, but I also don't think that "Cardassian Spy" accurately represents his role in the occupation. Question. Would you call a spy for the Nazi's back during WWII a Jewish oppressor (oppressor is putting it lightly by the way, there are certainly more descriptive words that could be used)? Regardless of whether this spy spied on Jews, or spied on American's, the spy was doing what it could to bolster its country and by extension, the country's ideals and actions. "Quickly it should be noted obviously it was but a historical review of the occupation should start from the begining where no one had committed a wrong I.e before occupation and worked on that to the end. Using oppressor from the get go is a form of rhetoric to discredit any opposing view he would bring up in the eyes of the audience." Treating both sides impartially does not mean treating both sides as they were not in the wrong. There's a difference between wrong and right, being nice, and fairness. The Cardassian's were clearly in the wrong, and one could argue that many of the resistance fighters were also in the wrong. Garak himself admitted later in the series that he was in the wrong and that the Dominion would become Cardassian oppressors analogous to what the Cardassians were to the Bajorans.
Hey man sorry for the reply I'm from the UK haha. Well yes the may have known he was a spy etc but that dosent necessarily mean he was working specifically in that area (true it is alluded to but it was seldom and not I think confirmed) he said to Zeyal he specifically picked DS9 as his place of residence. Again heresay I think wouldn't be wise to start from. (admittedly I'm aware this is probably the weakest part in my argument) Ok and I did give what I believe would be a neutral basis. This is I think the first attempt they gave at documenting the historical event that was the occupation therefore to properly be neutral in my opinion would be to start at the beginning before either side had committed any moral wrong so just before the invasion. This means that Garak being labelled as an oppressor would be contrary to the conference ( in my understanding) His role was unknown so Cardassian spy is accurate. Resistance fighter is accurate and neutral instead of labelling them as for example Bajoran terrorist which carries negative connotations they say resistance fighter which is more neutral. In my opinion there was no need to label him as an oppressor because the institution he represented would have been evidently the oppressors by mere analysis of the facts which I think would be a better approach to have been taken seriously you cant expect the Bajorans to be unbiased here though the wouds are fresh and deep I know but I'm making an observation. Well ok to answer your question. When I wrote my dissertation for my history class back in high school it was evident to me I believe that the majority of the German voting population did not vote for Hitler through the way the government ran the state (I.E Oppressively) and Human social nature many conformed because that was what society at large was doing. it does not make every individual whermacht trooper an all out Nazi the secret service was a government post dedicated to their state they are the last people that are expected to have pains of conscience in their work look at state secrets law in the UK for example there is no defence for spilling the guts over morality. So your Nazi spy in my opinion would be part of an oppressive regime but being such a small cog in said machine I think giving him the label of oppressor a bit hyperbolic. Although often times it is contextual I.E if he was SS it would be different as he made a conscious choice to actively hunt and kill jews and is easily assumed to believe the Nazi ideology. I believe this is true for many Cardassian citizens they were loyal to the state because it was what their society expected of them but I'm digressing. The final point I agree with. But to be fair to your opposition you have to allow their views a degree of respect. For example the Nazis pushed for rocketry technology this was a positive as it helped stir innovation during the space race in the 60s it was a psotive impact the Nazis had on the world. However when looking at it with all the facts it is clear that in the grand scheme of things the Nazis done mostly wrong. Therefore the label of oppressor could be used for garak but awarded to the side of the argument he represents at the end of the debate as a conclusion I think would be more constructive.
"Hey man sorry for the reply I'm from the UK haha." Why are you sorry? I love friendly discussion! There is no need to be sorry :) "Well yes the may have known he was a spy etc but that dosent necessarily mean he was working specifically in that area (true it is alluded to but it was seldom and not I think confirmed) he said to Zeyal he specifically picked DS9 as his place of residence. Again heresay I think wouldn't be wise to start from. (admittedly I'm aware this is probably the weakest part in my argument)" Two things here, he was on and off Terok Nor while the occupation occurred. He also chose to go back to Terok Nor/DS9 because it was the only place with cardassian's immediately after the occupation ended after he was exiled. "This is I think the first attempt they gave at documenting the historical event that was the occupation therefore to properly be neutral in my opinion would be to start at the beginning before either side had committed any moral wrong so just before the invasion." I'm not so sure they were documenting as much as they were discussing/debating various aspects of the occupation. I think this is one place where we fundamentally disagree though. I don't particularly see the use necessarily in starting your discussion on the events before the occupation, other than to explain why the occupation occurred. The occupation occurred because the Cardassian's needed resources. Again, I think it is more useful to start a discussion from a few facts or truths that both sides can agree on. Some of those truths would be that the Cardassian's forcefully occupied Bajor, Bajorian's did not provide much resistance initially, and that Cardassian's setup the Bajorian Occupational Government. That is a neutral starting point and gives you specific points to branch off of and discuss. "In my opinion there was no need to label him as an oppressor because the institution he represented would have been evidently the oppressors by mere analysis of the facts which I think would be a better approach to have been taken seriously you cant expect the Bajorans to be unbiased here though the wouds are fresh and deep I know but I'm making an observation." You also can't expect the Cardassian's to be unbiased, which goes back to my point of what is neutral. The facts show that Garak played a part in the occupation of Bajor. No matter how small that part was, he still aided his government in "oppressing" an entire population. Pay specific attention to the beginning where Cisco states that "Bajorian's bent over backwards to be polite". That seems to imply that they respected his opinions and him as a Cardassian enough to politely disagree. I'm going to believe Cisco's analysis of the situation over Garak's 100% of the time because Garak is a serial liar, and Cisco has less of a dog in the fight. "Although often times it is contextual I.E if he was SS it would be different as he made a conscious choice to actively hunt and kill jews and is easily assumed to believe the Nazi ideology." You don't have to personally kill or enslave someone to oppress them. The Obsidian Order was one of the greatest intelligence organizations at the time. You can bet that operatives were constantly on covert missions to gain intelligence on the resistance in order to stop their various plots. "For example the Nazis pushed for rocketry technology this was a positive as it helped stir innovation during the space race in the 60s it was a psotive impact the Nazis had on the world. However when looking at it with all the facts it is clear that in the grand scheme of things the Nazis done mostly wrong. Therefore the label of oppressor could be used for garak but awarded to the side of the argument he represents at the end of the debate as a conclusion I think would be more constructive." We can find positives in literally every moment of our existence if we look hard enough. That does not justify murdering and enslaving millions of people. Again, I think in any debate you have to start from some foundational truths rather than starting from nothing as you put it. One of those foundational truths is that Cardassian's forcefully occupied Bajora, and in the process many lives were lost, families separated, and cultures destroyed. Giving Garak the title of oppressor does not stop him from sharing his opinion's on why he or why the Cardassian's did what they did, if anything it gives perspective.
I would have paid real money for a "Family Guy"-style flashback shot of Garak with his "Elam Garak -- Former Cardassian Oppressor" name tag at the mixer, holding a drink and a plate of canapes.
"And I must say, these hors d'ouvres are absolutely delicious. The poison adds just the right tinge of sweetness to the peppery seasonings. I am truly grateful for all those years of developing a resistance to such poisons, or I'd never be able to properly appreciate your chef's work..."
@@Archone666 I just read that in his voice. Although he'd probably add some comment about how if you really wanted a certain effect, you'd use Poison Y because Poison X didn't do the job right.
He seems like he's trolling, but in all actuality the reason why Cardassian's largely believe it wasn't a war is because there was no actual war. The Bajorans were too weak to fight back for it to be a war. That's why they call it an occupation. Cardassian's have a twisted philosophy about many things, because their society is completely different in structure. They live in what is essentially a totalitarian state taken to the extremes. So things we might see as oppression, are just every day occurrences in their society, and seen as order. Fighting back against it is seen as disorder.
To be fair Garak has a point in both how the discussion was supposed to be a non-partisan historical debate and how the occupation was in a sense a benefit for the Bajorans as looking at how they developed it gave them many skills and taught them many things with which they would eventually teach to the Cardassians when the Dominion came along.
@@peoplez129 It isn't war, it's policing. It's a special operation. It's counter terrorism. It's adjustment training. It's rehabilitation. Oh, never mind. It's all just the greater good.
Honestly, given Garak's love for Cardassia, I doubt he'd have seen it as atrocities so much as wastes of perfectly good resources. If Garak were in charge, the Bajorans would have been kept JUST happy enough to serve the state at maximum effectiveness. There would have been no brutal put downs of rebellions, no public executions, because it never would have gotten that far. People would have just...disappeared. If he'd have any issues with the occupation, it would have been about how unskillfully it were handled.
I always thought he was English doing a fake American accent until I found out that he wasnt. He reminds me of the English in some ways and that clearly could be why.
@James Watson: And that is as it should be! As an American and a former thespian, I know just how hard it is to master Shakespeare. It is no surprise to me that those performers who actually have mastered his work would be his own kinsmen.
lol that was a good one. There's also that scene in the finale where he's about to be executed and asks if anyone has any last words. Even when he's told, "final words are not permitted" he still managed to say, "how disappointing"
The mental image of Garak walking around the conference and sitting with his legs crossed and a big innocent smile while a poster that says "former Cardassian oppressor" hangs from his neck is absolutely hilarious .
Ian H Yes but it’s not like “Oppressor” is a job title the way spy is. It would be correct to call a nazi spy an oppressor. Also, this is a throwaway line meant to be humourous
Gul Ducat would not have been allowed near the conference. Elim Garak, on the other hand, once showed mercy to a group of Bajorans, and was expelled from the Obsidian Order for it.
@@DavidLemmo We never did find out why Garack was banished from Cardasia & cast out of the the Obsidian Order, beyond that in some way he disobeyed his secret father Enabran Tain head of the Obsidian Order.
As a teacher and historian, he raises such an important issue. History MUST be observed with differing perspectives so long as they are all based on facts, THAT is where historic issues and debates lie. It is counter-productive to have everyone bias-ly cherry picking historic fact for there own position on events
+jim haha yes of course, differing viewpoints is what i meant by differing perspectives, sorry for the in-clarity, as for the republican/Democrat anaolgy, absolutely. My favorite example of unintentional historic bias is WW2, jezz the atmosphere the class used to turn into when told to look at it from the german perspective, was like being asked to break a law, but in reality is a very important part of history :)
Nobody is ever entirely right or wrong, but every time contentious issues are brought up, it turns into a weird point-scoring apology for one side or the other. Worst of all, if you acknowledge that an opposing side was right on a part of an issue, it's interpreted as an endorsement of the entire ideology of that side! Everybody's so quick to try to paint their own side as virtuous and blameless that nobody can discuss the complexities of reality without people taking advantage! Hell, even the Nazis figured out that smoking led to lung cancer before anybody else did (it didn't stop them from smoking, but they figured it out), but admitting that doesn't make you a Nazi sympathizer! it's just documenting a fact. It should be objective.
ryang58 I know this is late but a true historians job is to be apathetic to political opinion and understand both sides. Even if the sources provided lean to the conclusion that one party is wrong. It is still immoral to judge. That is not a historians motive for study. I completely agree with you.
The first lesson we were told in university History was an anecdote about a policeman turning up the scene of a car accident. There are as many different accounts of what happened as there are people who saw it (or even more importantly who claimed to). The lesson was meant to teach us that History depends on one's own perspective.
Which is why we appreciate him so much. Garak is the ultimate troll, the ultimate espionage agent, and might I add, a tailor who is a cut above the rest?
You can tell from the way he’s speaking he’s just trolling them all. The occupation shouldn’t be defended, but this conference gets him out of his holding cell and he gets to pretend like he gives a shit while messing with people who don’t want to debate :P
What I love is how Jazia trolls him back when he mentions his tag. "And what did you want them to say? *"Former *SPY"?"* Garak's twitch when he heard that one was priceless! XD
My thoughts exactly. He's not interested in real debate, but sharpening his tongue while getting a few kicks out of their reactions. He openly admits to lying in sport to Worf in "In Purgatory's Shadow."
That's the most in-character reason with Garak. Dukat would actually support the occupation in earnest--he did several times in-show already. Dumar didn't give a shit and just wanted to do his job and go home. Garak just can't help but jump at any verbal sparring match, which is why he hones in on the smartest member of the crew and debates literature with him every lunch. But Bashir wears on a person REALLY fast, and Garak needs to mix up his sparring partners now and then. Drawing so much attention to himself and his history was probably not the smartest move, but Garak was miserable on the station and likely willing to risk trouble just to mix things up a bit.
To be fair 'former cardassian oppressor' is a pretty accurate description. For most of the occupation Garak was a fully fledged oppertive of the obsidian order.
Yes, was the subtitle to the name tag necessary? The name alone would have been enough and his simple presence at such a conference would have indicated that he was considered important.
Man, something about the sound design here really made this feel like a closed space. I don't think it's just the low background hum. I think they're doing something to how their voices resonate. Whether it's through set design acoustics or some post processing of some kind I don't know. Either way, it's subtle and impressive.
@@UncannyComics Lmao, thank you for this beautiful satire. The number of people wholeheartedly agreeing with Garak in this comment section is upsetting.
While I would have been content, back in the day, spending the remainder of my life counting all the spots on Jadzia Dax, I would truly sit and listen (for hours) in total silence to Garak telling ghost stories at a campfire. His delivery is beyond perfection and he has the voice that is both soft and polite and somehow menacing at the same time.
Garak was always my favorite ancillary DS9 character. I love his dialog. I was watching the 2 parter "Improbable Cause" and "The Die is Cast" the other day. The scenes with him and Odo are just so well written. I love TNG but DS9 will always be my favorite.
I believe both TNG and DS9 were the top of Star Trek writing ever. Unless you count some of the movies, these two series had a writing to their storylines and characters that no other Trek series trully managed to live up to. At least, in my humble opinion.
Imagine being Odo, being in love with a woman who was a dedicated member of the Resistance, feeling guilt for not picking a side in the Occupation, and then being held up as a paragon of justice and a "legend" for walking the edge of being a collaborator in order to impose order on chaos . . . when chaos was arguably the better condition. An orderly, and thereby more efficient, occupation served the goals of the Cardassians, and hindered those of the Bajoran Resistance. Odo realized that by this point in the series, and being lauded for his actions during the Occupation just rubbed his face in it.
Also I can't remember exactly where this is on the timeline. But that very need for order is exactly why Odo's people created The Dominion. The most orderly societies are often authoritarian ones after all. Freedom is often chaotic and messy by definition.
@@hannibalb8276 That implies that the Founders were telling the truth about their origin. If they wiped out any challengers its just as easy to imagine them being totalitarian from the start and due to victors writing history that is the current "truth".
Andrew Robinson has always played interesting characters and Garak was interesting from his first moment on STDS9. He made it impossible to dislike him.
In many ways Garak is like an old racist grandparent. He's actually quite charming, but he was also raised in a society that condoned some pretty horrific things. So you may like him as a person, but hate his political leanings. To Garak's credit, he eventually does come to realize the errors of that society, admit them, and even work to fix them.
I mean the question at hand is whether or not the occupation of a planet and the enslavement of an entire race Garak sees as utterly inferior is justified.
This scene was really made all the better when, later in the episode and one time-travel-shenanigan later, Garek saw what Bajorans went through and he said "I don't recall it being this bad."
At the same time, it was a bit unreasonable to put "Former Cardassian Oppressor" on the nametag. Otherwise, I'm sure he was happy to give them a "Gul Darheel" performance like they wanted, but still would've preferred to give them an accurate account of the Cardassian side in the hopes Bajor wouldn't repeat their mistakes down the lines
What the Cardassians did was morally wrong and abhorrent. However, Garak is right in that he should have been given a chance to explain his side of the story - at least explain why they did what they did.
geniusofmozart They acted according to their nature and according to their orders. Some, like Gul Darhe'el, are evil, whereas others occupy that grey area like Gul Dukat before his breakdown. And still others, like Gul Damar, are good men that are patriots, raised in a different mindset that meant that, to them, it was NOT morally wrong and abhorrent. It was a way of life. It's the old argument of if you've been raised the same way and told the same thing for a thousand years, you'll believe what you've been told to be right because surely someone else would've objected if it were wrong.
lygophile But those people would've been crushed down, pushed aside and their voices made silent under the weight of the majority drowning them out. So not even other objectors can hear them. History is written by the majority and the victors.
+geniusofmozart Isnt that the whole point of history? Understanding the justification used on the other side for why they did what they did. They don't need to believe or condone it just understand. Garak was right in his thoughts on the matter.
MrNintoku yeah, that's (iirc) the actor's take on this scene. Garak doesn't care that the Bajorans think his people are mass murderers and corrupt (having been part of the Obsidian order, a true patriot, and screwed over bc of his patriotism, he knows that better than anyone.) He's disappointed the Bajorans are allowing their moralistic nature to keep them from truly understanding why the Cardassians did what they did or why they're so able to write it off as no big deal. After all, that'll make them less effective at dealing with future threats in the long run. It's the same reason he smiles approvingly when someone is incredibly cynical or suspicious of him. Those are the things that've helped him survive so he's happy to see it in others.
Now I'm picturing Garak sitting at a table with a raktajino in his hand, with a sign in front that reads, "The occupation really wasn't that bad. Change my mind."
Reading this comment made me think of a future Garek as an elderly Cardassian telling stories of old in his tailor shop to annoy customers while knitting a scarf.
@@anthonycunningham8116 I don’t get why people keep on getting with the mentality that old =/= Star material. I wish older actors were used in main roles more often and not resided to shitty comedies and old people dramas.
And even if they did, people would still complain. Especially if there was anything remotely political, like there was here. Give people everything they want, and they'll still bitch about it. So after a while, one has to just stop trying.
@@k1productions87 that's the very reason peace and war are wax and wane functions. The warriors want peace and the complacent little ones who forgot war really want it again.
@@tyhutchinson2499 and old disgruntled fans always want some kind of "us vs. them" fight, and so they keep going back to it with every single new Trek series that has ever been made. They complain that they are not being listened to, when they are exactly who SHOULDN'T be listened to, because they are impossible to please. If they were listened to, everything that made DS9 great would not exist. It would have just been a stagnant retread of TNG... which is unfortunately what much of Voyager became.
@@Djarra : I actually heard back in the day that the inspiration was a "magic trick" that one of the Kardashian kids had done. I think this was back in the 80s, before the mom's first husband (a famous music producer, and the original reason they were famous) had died.
The irony here is that *GARAK* is taking the stance the Federation typically claims is ideal. Sisko and Dax are being the biased assholes. ...Now whether Garak is merely taking said position simply to be contrary and stir up trouble versus actually wanting to keep an objective view of history...well that's another matter entirely.
It's just another part of DS9 deconstructing the ideals of the federation. While Garak might be true, it is just not realistic to have an open debate with formerly oppressed people after only a few years have passed. Sisko and Dax are merely not giving a shit, because both of them know, there is no point in arguing over it. Realism deconstructs idealism. The idealism only stays true in the form of Odo, since he only judges himself and his own actions but nothing else.
Oh he definitely just wanted to stir up trouble and get to lie and joke a bunch. Those are some of his top favorite things, I doubt history has much interest to him outside of learning from others mistakes.
i mean what exactly about federation ideals would actually consider garak's position valid? prime directive means not interfering sometimes, but that doesn't mean not being philosophically against oppression and judgmental about it--just in circumstances where it's not your place to interfere to let history run its course, mostly in terms of prewarp civilizations but also with some diplomatic aspect to not interfering with internal matters of other interstellar powers, although the latter aspect of the prime directive is often more pragmatic diplomacy than principle based. I see literally nothing in federation idealism that supports Garak's position.
@@dmonitize9011 what makes you think that's not possible according to federation ideals? of course starfleet officers have to follow those principles, they can't just make up their own ad hoc principles to follow individually, but what's the evidence that federation citizens or academics don't do open and honest debates about things including the federation's principles? even starfleet officers regularly end up sometimes debating the merits of fed principles before begrudgingly following them or finding some loophole through them, I could think of plenty of TNG examples of that... I think this is just a common fan projection onto the federation by fans who want to have some kind of edgy take on it lol.
The Legend of the Galactic Heroes novels are now in translation, for when you're done with that. The evil racist empire was evil and racist 500 years ago, now it's just tired and it can't genocide non-white non-Germanic people because it hasn't seen one for centuries. Meanwhile the government of the brave rebels fighting for freedom and democracy willingly send millions to die in an ill-conceived operation because the "liberation" will look good on the news. Great stuff with no clear-cut goodies and baddies.
I liked how, even though Odo might typically have had this reaction regardless of the circumstances...you can still see his trepidation here isn't normal for even him. You can see how he still feels guilt. Such great acting and character development. Now I need to rewatch this series! Thanks a lot!
The number of people in this comments section wholeheartedly defending Garak's position is... scary. Knowing Garak, he was trying to stir the pot and play devil's advocate rather than be helpful. Also, acknowledging multiple perspectives is one thing, but the goal of historical study should not exclusively be to maintain a neutral "unbiased" view of social and political occurrences. The goal of history is not to present opposing forces as equal and opposite, but to understand the motivations behind both forces and learn to promote or avoid those motivations. We don't study the perspective of the Nazis because we "need to be neutral," we do so because in understanding what led to their mistakes we can work to avoid them in the future. *Purely factual history is useless without the empathy needed to learn from our mistakes.*
Feelings do not have a place in the recording of a historical event when those feelings are ingrained INTO the recording. Empathy is something that we are to give the external observer the benefit to experience or ignore. This silly doctrine that you have to ingrain emotion into documentation is literary fancy and will only result in pushing people further into a counter-perspective of extremes because you're effectively trying to MANIPULATE them into tugging on an emotion. By encapsulating such notions you only enable those who are indifferent the opportunity to morph into that of indignance and offense. Give facts, but don't manipulate them in such a way that you want to deliberately get a rise or tear from the audience that isn't privy to such an incident so they are more accepting of the context of the situation. You will ultimately garner more favor by detailing in pure fact in regards to the dissection of historical occurrences and incidents of that ilk instead of putting in a heavy-handed tear that will only ultimately drive people off because human beings don't like to be told whether they should feel happy or sad on a matter. Don't posturize the human condition; that is what Garak's message is, as horrifying as the Cardassian occupation had been. Leave the sympathy for the observers, the audience and the readers to decide upon. "Former Cardassian Oppressor" isn't an occupation; it is a "tag" that has the brunt of emotion and outrage, understandable as it is. History deals in facts. I don't want to be told a story. I want to know what happened; the events; the logistics; etcetera, etcetera ... and I believe that people have a right to decide to which degree they are detached or outraged with events at hand. If not, we might as well pick and choose what we want to keep. I'm sure Kim Jong-Un and Joseph Stalin could give us a few pointers there: sarcasm very much intended.
@@Sizdothyx Agree, the tag itself is wrong because that it is charged with more than just fact, but given his response, I'd say that Garak wasn't exactly arguing in good faith, himself. We also have to remember that this "history" happened around 5 years ago, in show time. It's almost the equivalent of asking Holocaust survivors in 1950 to give a former Nazi soldier/spy a nametag. Not an excuse for the Bajorans' mildly ill will here, given the circumstances, just an explanation.
I don't think Garak would appreciate his name sharing the same space as Gul Dukat's... Unless he knew that Gul Dukat knew about it and hated it more than Garak.
That was a joke, that line was from the Season 3 premiere "The Search Part I" when they began searching for The Dominion after their aggressive first contact. They asked a member race of The Dominion who was reluctant to give info. He had an exchange with Sisko that when like this: Him: All that I know is that the Vorta tell you to do something and then you do it. Sisko: And why's that? Him: Because if you do not, they will send in the Jem'Hadar...and then you die. One of my favorites.
The most unrealistic bit is the idea that an occupied people would have any praise for a law enforcement officer who worked for the occupier, regardless of how honest that officer had been. How many police officers working in Vichy France were celebrated after the war for their "unbiased commitment to maintaining order"?
A Vichy police officer would be comparable to a collaborator. The Bajorans had no tolerance for them. Odo was... something else. Even the Carassians weren't certain what to make of him. As far as they knew he was the result of a Cardassian scientist's experiments with a strange goo sample he'd found, an unkillable shapeshifting entity that couldn't be stopped with violence but mostly just wanted to maintain law and order. The Bajorans respected him because A: they knew they were far more likely to see justice if Odo was involved, and B: Odo never looked down his nose at them and claimed he was superior and that their oppression was deserved.
Are there people here who are taking what Garak is saying seriously?! Holy Christ! Bashir: "But the point is, if you lie all the time, nobody's going to believe you, even when you're telling the truth." Garak: "Are you sure that's the point, doctor?" Bashir: "Of course, what else could it be?" Garak: "That you should never tell the same lie twice..." He's doing it for giggles. He's an assassin and "interrogator" with a love for picking whatever position will agitate someone most. The guy was kicking himself for not shooting Dukat in the back and when called out because shooting someone in the back is kinda scummy he blinks and answers "It's the safest way to do it."
Julian Francisco Just because Garak lies some, or most of the time, doesn't mean he's always lying or is never being sincere. There are obviously a lot of times throughout the series when he's telling the truth, and he seems to be very passionate about his love and loyalty for Cardassia. Even if he went to the conference with no other intent than to bother the Bajorans, even he would probably become irritated with their disparaging of his homeland after enough time.
DediJ8k Those times where Garak is sincere he's remorseful of what happened on Bajor and feels it's important for Cardassians to realize the extent of what happened. It's why he praises Kira when she responds bitterly to Dumar's shock that the Founders would kill civilian and soldier alike. And no he wouldn't get annoyed bc the guy might as well get off on antagonizing people. One of the few ways to get him to approve of you is by refusing to believe he could possibly mean well. A bunch of Bajorans pointing out he helped facilitate the enslavement of their world wouldn't do anything besides get that Cheshire Cat grin on his face. Also, Garak does not lie some or most of the time. He lies ALL the time. It's something he's very proud of and that Enabrin admires about him. Getting tortured? Drugged? Losing his sanity? Garak will still find a way to obscure the truth and get in a smart ass comment.
Here's my guess: - the Bajorans claim inflated numbers of dead compared to the Cardassian numbers, they list people who have left the planet as dead - punishing the families of known resistance members is the only option against a hidden foe, it's unreasonable to think they should risk more soldiers instead of putting the screws at "innocent" civilians who likely support the rebels
@@Sraye Gul dukat actually made good poinys until the superior race part. He is right that the one of the biggest issues during his reign was pride. The bajorans didn't want an end to oppression or better Living standards. They wanted independence at any cost. Even if dukat completely ended oppressive rule, bajor would never accept being governed by cardassia. And would probably continue resistance fighting.
Yeah, it probably had something to do with correcting inconsistencies in the records the Bajorans had, which would obviously upset the Bajorans. But like in any situation, if you view things from only one side, youre going to get things wrong.
@@JP-rf8rr yes in waltz a few things he said do not count for nothing but he was not someone trying a bad situation better. As you said he believed the barons simply refused to accept thier place.
Steven Toyen He always had a lot on his mind, he wasn't ever happy or looked properly happy until he met that holographic child and also started falling in love with Kira.
Augustus Shockley I mostly forgot the episode, a somewhat forgettable one for me. But I liked that Odo had that dark secret, his failure as a person by taking the easy way out. (Sorry, no spoilers folks)
You will never find a "dispassionate historical perspective" within just a few years of any event. Takes decades until personal investments into what happened dulls and unaffected minds start replacing the old ones. Especially in places that were directly affected.
This makes me think the essence or programming of the changelings was so absolute that even Odo tries to fulfill the task of his people in his own way and does not know it.
I love Garak's little eye-roll he gives as he's trying to change the subject. It's like he's saying "I swear to God, Dax, you're making me _this close_ to losing my composure!", all the while I can picture Jadzia just grinning mischieviously. XD
Of course Garak is rigth in what he says but you have to consider that he uses speech only as an instrument. He will appeal to indecency and mistreatment when it aids his cause and he will lie and distort the next day, when it's necessary. A conference organized by him would probably be much more subtle in it's bias but it would be biased nontheless. He is a Cardassian nationalist.
Eh. He loves Cardassia (wow my autocorrect capitalized that... I love the internet) but he isn't a nationalist. He could care less if his government where to die out, as long as his planet and people survive
@@thomastakesatollforthedark2231 This is just wrong... he has a whole speech to Bashir about how duty to the state is the epitome of Cardassian existence. He's a fascist nationalist, that's his character, a convincing one, but still a fascist. The fact that people are so taken in by him saying a lot.
@@VyreXP honestly, im sensing projection from people who want to "dispassionately and objectively" talk about why American slavery and the holocaust were ok, and feel offended when people dont go along. maybe im getting a false positive, the internet ha s away of making you think everyone is a closet scumbag, but im picking up phrasings and dog whistles that make it sound familiar to lost cause enthusiasts and apologists for the third Reich..
It seems strange that they let him talk at all. He still had a horrible reputation. He was basically all alone on the station, bar his cold friendship with Bashir. Starfleet and the Bajoran government knew he was a former, and occasionally active, spy that still longed for his home.
I've always thought of Odo as being a pretty good example of a Lawful Neutral. Granted he's tip-toeing the line against Lawful Good, but, ultimately, law and order is his primary purpose.
This was a great episode...the way all were forced to relive a mistake Odo made during the occupation...and that some thought less of him for making the mistake.
I will never forget that this was the very first time I met Garak. I remember sitting next to my Dad, who introduced me to DS9 in the first place, and he got all excited and fanboy like when Garak came on. I was 14 at the time, I believe, and like any teen my first thought was that I would hate Garak. But he completely won me over and is now one of my favourite characters 😊😊
I mean y'all are kind of ignoring that this is basically like an ex-Nazi turning up to a Holocaust Survivor's conference and being like "Ayy, but, you know, we weren't all bad, amirite?" Victims of that sort of brutality are under no obligation to be polite to the people who inflicted it on them and it's mad to me that people don't get that.
admittedly, i'm not fully up on my DS9 lore, but I don't think the Cardassians were full on "nazis" on Bajor. I think it would probably be closer to an agent of the British Empire showing up to a conference about the British Rule by some colony after getting violently kicked out a few years before.
@@luciussulla2641 Nooooo, dude. There were full on death camps, slave labour, mass executions, rapes, torture - the entire point of the Cardassian occupation, as explained by the writers themselves, was to be allegorical to the Holocaust but on a planetary scale and over the course of fifty years. It's made pretty explicit. It's why things like this in the writing annoy me a little because it's sort of like... the writers having their cake and eating it, too? You can't lay it out as explicitly to be allegorical to the Holocaust and have someone like Garak not take it seriously - especially given how a biiiig part of Garak's arc is his deep, miserable regrets over his part in the atrocities.
@@maltgeezer7439 he was certainly a collaborator? He was a Centrist - his primary concern was the Status Quo and order, nothing else. But it says something about Centrists that in this situation Odo is indistinguishable from a Cardassian.
I heard someone once telling "Without slavery no subculture and without subculture no Rap Music!" A dispassionate historical perspective? I don't know. I just decided to get wasted hours later in a bar.
Technically that's true... it doesn't make the slavery and oppression even remotely justified, of course. If you make someone's life a living hell and they grow strong and tough and rise to greatness because of it, that doesn't mean you don't deserve the ass-kicking they have in store for you once they're able to give you the beating you so richly deserve. (Or to put it another way, Sherman did a great job "thanking" the South on behalf of the slaves) Personally I belong to a culture that has contributed a great deal to advancements in art, cuisine, music, technology, and more, because of centuries of oppression and persecution. We're quite proud of our accomplishments... and we're also proud of outlasting so many of the nations, groups, and organizations who oppressed and persecuted us. You won't hear us thanking the Catholic Church for what it did to us anytime soon.
So this video showed up amidst a feed of political back-and-forth footage posts. Thoroughly impressed by Star Trek's ability to remain relevant. And shocked that Google's algorithms allowed it through the tide of controversial nonsense.
The more I think about it the more "Former Oppressor" actually makes sense to me as what you would put on someone's credentials at an academic conference like that. It's the reason he has anything worth contributing to the conversation. Garak "Tailor" can have an opinion, but there isn't much reason to listen to that opinion. Garak "Former Oppressor" has something that he can contribute to a conversation about what happened.
This is why I like star trek. There is chill and not a lot of drama bs or a lot of non stop action. Just a group of friends enjoying their company in space and exploration. I do love the space battles tho when it happens. The new star trek isn't star trek anymore especially the Picard series which takes a dump on star trek.
When you put it that way, Odod is very emo, and he acts like he doesn't have emotions. I think what I like about him is his dedication to justice and how good he is at his job. Garak on the other hand makes morally questionable decisions for the "greater good" I suppose it is related to Spock's philosophy of the needs of the many.but I would rather have justice done the right way then sacrificing morality. What I like about both of them is how they start out so enigmatic.
And it's kind of endearing how later on both Odo and Garak develop a mutual respect for each other. I guess that goes to show that, despite their differences, their end goals were probably more similar then they initially thought.
The Vorta were small ape-like creatures, a family of Vorta hid a Changeling while they were wounded after being hunted by humanoids. "In return, the Changeling promised that one day they would be transformed into powerful beings and placed at the head of a vast interstellar empire that would stretch across the galaxy." It's such tragic irony that the Changelings started The Dominion to protect themselves form the persecution of humanoids only to turn around and do the same thing.
Was he really? Or was Garak just playing up the part of "former oppressor" :P That's what I love about Garak you can never take anything he says or does strictly at face value he was always on, always playing an angle, always a spook, ever the spy master.
Garak for President. He just skewered the 2016 election in the States. No one could talk to each other because of hot salt. Just stagnant stewing in their own funk.
Its even worse now. We are only allowed to listen to one side of the story, and it just so happens to be the side that "won". The very same people that spent four years complaining about election interference and instigating endless investigations are now saying everything is fine and nobody is allowed to check. Stuff like this is what Garak was talking about. If only one side is allowed to be heard, anything can be made to be the "truth" and we have no choice but to just believe it. Because, apparently, questioning our leaders is now a "danger to Democracy".
@@SvendleBerries that is not what is happening. one side is actually based entirely on lies and innuendos and the other on actual facts. Conservatives are pretending its a parallel situation while making bad faith arguments and logically inconsistent statements, but its false equivalencies to try and justify a genuine 4 year clusterfuck of nonstop lies and equivocation.
@@ryanweible9090 - *"one side is actually based entirely on lies and innuendos and the other on actual facts."* Its interesting how the side that constantly claims to hate billionaires gets all of their information from them and trusts them implicitly. You should probably stop doing that. Take BLM for example: They are literally a Marxist organization aimed at basically destroying western society. Now, thats been called a far right conspiracy, the thing is though that its been said by the very people that founded. Hell, its even on their website. You should go take a look. Stop believing everything youre told. If asking questions seems absurd or even wrong, then whats right other than absolute obedience? Contrary to popular belief, the left have controlled nearly all of society all this time. Education, entertainment, social media, nearly every mainstream news organization. Nearly every major system in place is controlled by the left, yet Im always led to believe they are the underdogs fighting the man...no. They ARE the man, and have been for the past four years.
@@SvendleBerries I'd like to toss in the name George Soros. He's been banned from several countries for deliberately attempting to destabilize the government. Guess where he has his sights set at the moment, and what groups he's been funding?
This is a funny scene, but in all seriousness, Garak could not possibly be this naive. The only thing I can think of is that everything he is saying is just dry humor to him. Of course the Bajorans aren't going to see anything "his" way. Ever. Garak is too smart to not know this. He was goofing on Sisko and Jadzia here.
+sunnchilde A cut scene reveals that going to the conference gets him out of the holding cell he's been in for a few months (following his attempt to destroy the Founders) but he probably had some motive. Perhaps it was an opportunity to 'deal' with a Bajoran who was an enemy of Tain's. After all he tells Tain that all his enemies are dead when Tain is dying and a couple of the names mentioned could be Bajoran rather than Cardassian.
Possibly. But I imagine it would be far easier to kill a Bajoran than a Cardassian. If Tain wanted a Bajoran dead, he could just destroy that entire province.
There's a scene between him and Worf in another episode where he says that he has to keep up the practice of lying in order to be good at it. So it wouldn't surprise me if all this was just him honing his deception skills.
0:21 `Garek, you were trying to defend the military occupation of their world` ... remind me again, why didn't the Federation step in earlier? Prime Directive doesn't apply, both civilizations were either warp-capable or had warp knowledge from previous generations.
they were probably freaking horrified of the Dominion. Starfleet at the time wasn't inherently a full military organization, and i doubt they wanted to deal with what amounted to a Borg-level threat before they were ready.
@@KaaneDragonShinobi Dominion didn't show up until way later. I'm talking about decades of Federation inaction long before DS9 even became a Federation outpost. At the very least, after the TNG episode that introduced the Bajorans.
The Federation and the Cardassians had fought a war to a stale-mate, resulting in a peace treaty. So the Federation probably did not feel confident in their ability to actually liberate Bajor successfully. The Federation is also interested in peace- sometimes moreso than is really appropriate. I'm sure a lot of Federation citizens are more or less non-interventionist, especially if intervention means fighting a war themselves.
The only reasonable take: The Cardassian occupation was the best thing to happen to Bajor, since it transformed them from an agrarian backwater society with a rigid oppressive religious caste system to a modern regional power as an economic hub. If the Cardassian Occupation was so bad, why would the Prophets allow it? The technological advancement via the Cardassian Occupation of Bajor was all part of the Propets' plan for the Bajorans. Think about it, they got Warp, healthcare, infrastructure, technology beyond a plow and a potter's wheel, the ability to defend themselves, etc. Had the Prophets not allowed the Cardassians to occupy Bajor, they would've been the first to fall to the Dominion, and no one would've cared or noticed. In fact, the "genocide" that happened under the Cardassians over the course of the 50 or so year occupation had a yearly death toll that was less than that of a standard flu outbreak.
If you’re rewatching this episode, you realize that everything they say to Odo feels like it hits extra hard, even if you already got the sense that he’s thinking about a regret the first time you watched the episode.
Well, the Bajorans, who had a stable civilization dating back into antiquity, were conquered by the Cardassians largely because during that same time their volatile society had suffered repeated cycles of economic collapse. Cardassian fascism was essentially an attempt to stabilize their unstable society. Why would the Bajorans sympathize? They were invaded and enslaved simply because the Cardassians couldn't make their own economy work any other way. Other civilizations (innumerable ones in fact) managed to achieve stable economies without becoming Nazis.
+Daniel S Can't agree more. That was from the product of civil war, lack of resources, and a need for national pride, exactly as TNG and DS9 laid it out. I don't think they intended the back story to be so similar to Nazi Germany, but they clearly wanted Nazi's out there. The sad thing holds true in human history too. The Romans expanded because they needed resources, the Germans invaded Rome's borders because they needed land and food after fleeing the Huns. The Huns pushed the Germans off their land because they were being Pushed by several Asian steppes peoples like the Qiang, and the Qiang in turn were forced out by civil wars from an expanding China. It becomes a desperate goal when someone realizes they don't have the luxury of time to solve their problems while a population is struggling. So the easiest gamble of them all to make is take what's needed from your neighbors.
There were plenty of worlds in the Star Trek Universe to harvest resources from without the need to hurt other civilizations or enslave a group of people. For that very reason, it isn't particularly analogous to any of your examples regardless of the fact that the Bajoran's were having economic troubles. It also does not justify the Romans, Mongols, or any other civilization's lust for power and control. The Roman Empire probably would have lasted far longer had it tried to work with its neighbors. In the short term is was probably much more profitable for the Romans to have gone to war, in the long term it brought the downfall of their civilization.
@Arkone Axon No that is not really true. One of the biggest reasons why Rome eventually fell was because they over expanded (conquered neighboring lands). Because of this they had to spend a ridiculous amount of money on bolstering their military because they were constantly being attacked by their neighbors. They were able to defend themselves for a time, because they had a lot of money (but weren't generating much new income because they were unable to expand), but in the end it became their downfall. Money spent on military was taken away from improving infrastructure and the lives of its citizens. The populous slowly began rebelling, for a number of reasons, and ultimately the citizens of Rome stopped volunteering to be in the military. After that the rest is history. Rome was really no different from any of your other examples other than they were able to keep it going longer. That wasn't because they worked with their neighbors, it's because they defeated literally every super power (at the time) around them and were able to gain a pretty significant technological advantage on their enemies.
@@alexcauthen9546 Alex Cauthen No, the Romans worked to avoid the whole "conquest and total war" thing, which is why they lasted as long as they did... until they stopped trying to avoid it. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pax_Romana "Augustus' challenge was to persuade Romans that the prosperity they could achieve in the absence of warfare was better for the Empire than the potential wealth and honor acquired when fighting a risky war." The Romans worked to achieve this relative peace (emphasis on "relative." Of course there was still fighting, but far less than at other times) through a variety of means. First of all, the occupants of every conquered territory (generally people who had been in the habit of attacking Rome until Rome finally grew strong enough to stop them by force) were given the option of either full Roman citizenship, or partial citizenship and the right to maintain their legal and political traditions. This resulted in a stable and multicultural situation, marred mainly by uprisings by provinces that demanded the rights of full citizens while maintaining the status of partial citizenship (wanting to have their cake and eat it too). In addition, there was a huge focus on infrastructure - there's that excellent scene in "Life of Brian" where the resistance leaders demand, "what have the Romans ever given us?" and realize the answer is "a lot." Ancient Roman roads are still used in modern Italy; they look like cheap rough roads today, but at the time they were magnificent and smooth highways as fine as modern roads, and far more durable. I highly recommend checking out the Metatron channel on youtube, he's a native Italian who has made a number of excellent videos regarding the Romans. th-cam.com/channels/IjGKyrdT4Gja0VLO40RlOw.html What caused them to fall apart was a multitude of reasons that are still hotly debated, but... there's a huge difference between the Romans and the Mongols, or the Romans and the fascist regimes of the 20th century.
@Arkone I feel like you are cherry picking a quote from Augustus but are completely lacking any context, specifically when you take into account the amount that Rome expanded under Augustus's rule. Most of Rome's North African territory was acquired under Augustus, not to mention a large chunk of land in modern day Turkey. Rome didn't "work" with their neighbors, rather it was the other way around. Rome's neighbors had no choice but to work with them due to their vast wealth, large military, and more sophisticated technology. If they did not work with Rome, they ended up being absorbed into the Roman empire. At the end of the day, the biggest difference between the Romans and the Mongols, is that the Romans were more organized. They were able to build a culture and a strong civilization because of their emphasis on technology, infrastructure, and their own people. The Mongols just conquered with little regard for the people that lived in those territories and did very little to attempt to establish some kind of governance. The Romans' success wasn't predicated or caused by their ability to work with their neighbors. Most historical experts list about 8-12 reasons why the Roman Empire ultimately fell. On every single one of these lists you will find that Rome expanded to much and that they were not able to keep up their military spending. I didn't say those were they sole reasons for the empire falling, but rather important contributing factors that fly in the face of your thesis.
Not surprised the Bajorans were so passive-aggressive, imo it was far too soon to begin being able to look at the Occupation from a dispassionate perspective.
Is it ever proven that Garek actually killed any Bajorans in the occupation? He was an intelligence operative but I can't remember it being claimed that he ever actually killed any Bajorans. He gets more death threats and assassination attempts from his own side. He wouldn't be allowed to exist on a Bajoran-filled station if it was proven he was involved in any atrocities or war crimes against Bajor.
I think he was once ordered to, but wasn't cold hearted enough to do it, so he let them go. He was then exiled to the merchant civilian population of Terok Nor, where he spent his days hemming dresses.
Kira does show hostility towards him, but not to any degree above average when it comes to Cardassians in general. She only really threatens him when it came to Zial, but even she had to admit their affection was genuine. The most most telling thing of all is that Garek actually protects Kira and defends her when they help Damar at the end of season 7. Both he and Kira grow to admire and respect Damar, a man who truly did redeem himself; unlike Dukat who drowned in his own pride and vanity.
Other than the story about the Bajorans on the transport that may or may not have gotten him exiled, the most we know about his past activities is that he spent most of his time harassing, interrogating, and murdering other Cardassians. And possibly some Romulans in their own embassy.
Every single character in this scene is fascinating, multidimensional and keep you wishing to hear more from them, no need for lens flare and CGI, just talking. Well, maybe Dax not so much, but still. Odo, Garak, Sisko.. Whay can´t Discovery be like this, instead of being a super-Burnham solo show. Why.
I wish Elim Garak would make an appearance on Star Trek: Picard. To give "A Dispassionate Historical Perspective" on the Romulan Empire ... "I'm disappointed in hearing you mouth the usual platitudes of peace and friendship regarding an implacable foe like the Romulans. But I live in hope that one day you'll come to see this universe for what it truly is, rather than what you wish it to be." Elim Garak 'Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy'
@mazerrackham001 Odo thought that they were guilty of planting a bomb on the station that injured a bunch of people and killed at least a few others, he had no control over what Cardassian policy was in dealing with people found guilty of that sort of thing, only in finding out who it was and arresting them. Of course, his obsession with law and order affected his judgement and they were in fact innocent but he realized his mistake later on and was likely more careful as a result.
"What I would have liked was less posturing and more debate... it's clear to me now that the Bajoran's aren't really interested in discovering historical truth as much as they are in promoting the myths and legends of the glorious resistance." Wow... how relevant that is to today's politics and the extremist left side.
Herbert Erdferkel you just vindicated my point in less than one sentence. For starts, I am neither left nor right, as both sides have aspects I like, and both have aspects I dislike. But I point fingers to extremist leftists as they base their whole position on smear campaigns and filling out misinformation, and rather than giving any practical argument- repeat the message of “Right people are racists/bigots/sexists/etc. so thank you for proving my point.
@Herbert Erdferkel I will not grant you the honor of a measured response. Because all I hear is a self absorbed, grandiose piece of trash, sucking himself off all because I show distaste towards extremism on one side. You have nothing of value to say.
The right does it as well. Victim ideology and their own glorious resistance against those who would supposedly destroy Western civlization. Why would the billionaires that currently rule the world want to do so? None of them have that figured out yet, but it sure doesn't stop them from mythologizing the values of masculinity and the free market simply because they believe they're right. Just like how the liberal left attempts to create a boogeyman out of a supposed race regime and make their own "valiant resistance" against it. It's all just a desire for heroism among these knights of the left and right. Only problem is, when they can't find dragons to slay, they make their own.
Jason, the point of this scene is that both sides have an obligation to listen to the other if they want to pursue truth. It's a condemnation of the extreme left and the extreme right. Someone pointed out that you were being one-sided, and you ignored them and derided them. You're doing exactly what the Bajorans did and ignoring the opposition, not even dignifying them with a response. You have a lot of introspection to do if you think only one extreme is evil. Plus, to claim that only the right believes in liberty is absolute nonsense. And this is coming from the son of a proud Texan republican family.
@@holyknightthatpwns I'm glad you made this response. Because there's a significantly critical difference between you, and the other guy. You presented your perspective in a rational, simple and hospitable manner. You at no point made assumptions about the other person with no basis to judge, nor are you tooting your own horn, and (to quote them) enjoying the carnival... or circus, whatever he said. You're not acting all superior and immediately assuming me to be ignorant. And that one critical difference in how you present yourself is what determines the reaction of others. In this case- me. I don't feel the need to ignore your words as ignorant and self centered, because of the way you present yourself. As to what you actually said, I have two things to say in rebuttal 1. I didn't say the right believes in liberty, however, that statement is NOT inaccurate. Many Republican/right ideals pride liberty and freedom, both corporate and individual. Just as the left does. But just as the left does, they also have views on what liberties shouldn't be considered or regulated for one reason or another. 2. As I specified before in my responses, I am not ignoring the scene's purpose or the fact that extremist right is just as bad as extremist left. Both sides are equally bad, just as Extremism always has and always will be bad. However, I specifically point towards the left side, because in modern media, the extremist left has become so much more vocal than the extremist right, and are so hell bent on tearing down their opponents rather than seeking out truth. I understand that the scene is meant to show the flaws of both sides. However, I am explicitly quoting Gul Dukat's line, as to me that is the most relevant line in the scene, and am applying it with a modern issue. Does his line apply to the far right as well? of course it does. But what do you hear more often on TV and twitter nowadays? A. Immigrants are bad, we should deport them! or B. White man bad, Impeach the Orange man!
Both sides raise a good point On the one hand, Garek raises a good point about looking at history impartially, on the other, it's also a good point that certain things shouldn't just be considered "differant" and are simply and objectively evil.
Ironically, as a member of the Obsidian Order, Garak was more an oppressor of the *Cardassian* people than he was the Bajorans.
To be fair, former Cardassian oppressor would still be an appropriate name tag for that.
Yeah, very much "you're technically correct, but not for the reasons you think"
Hm,
Garak
is Cardassian
is an oppressor
The name tag was spot on. It wasn't specific on the target of his opression.
in your opinion
Garak probably killed more high ranking military officials than anyone in the Bajorian Resistance. Granted officially those were all accidents.
In all frankness, the fact that they literally labeled Garak as a "former Cardassian oppressor" doesn't seem like "bending over backwards to be nice".
The words dispassionate and nice aren't synonyms. If the words Former Cardassian Oppressor are an accurate description of his background, which it actually is, then technically that is impartial. In the English language, as with probably most languages, the word "oppressor" is usually described as having a negative connotation. You as a listener/reader are adding an emotional tone to the word that may not have been intended. Even if it was intended, reacting as Garak did, in a passionate manner, doesn't do anything to foster "dispassionate" debate.
If Garak was interested in having a dispassionate debate, he wouldn't have been offended by the use of the name tag. Would it bother a Vulcan if his name tag read "Former Member of the Isolationist Movement", the answer is no.
Alex could it be argued that because Garak worked as a spy the Bajorans wouldn't likely know what his work was therefore assumed to be that of an oppressor whether or not its true its problematic as it does create negative connotations. It'd be more prudent to start from a neutral base saying if he confirms (I guess if hed lie abt this to lol it is Garak)that he at least worked for the cardassian administration then going on to figure out whether or not the administration was worthy of the label oppressive. Quickly it should be noted obviously it was but a historical review of the occupation should start from the begining where no one had committed a wrong I.e before occupation and worked on that to the end. Using oppressor from the get go is a form of rhetoric to discredit any opposing view he would bring up in the eyes of the audience.
"Alex could it be argued that because Garak worked as a spy the Bajorans wouldn't likely know what his work was therefore assumed to be that of an oppressor whether or not its true its problematic as it does create negative connotations."
Hi Michael. People were well aware by this time in the series that Garak was a spy for the Obsidian Order. Even if the Bajoran's did not know specifically what he did, his participation is implied. Not to mention, he was on the space station at times during the occupation which is where he grew his distaste for Gul Dukat.
" It'd be more prudent to start from a neutral base saying if he confirms (I guess if hed lie abt this to lol it is Garak)that he at least worked for the cardassian administration then going on to figure out whether or not the administration was worthy of the label oppressive."
This is specifically the problem I was alluding to. Neutral relative to what? The Bajoran's? The Cardassian's? The Federation? Odo? What is neutral? The closest thing to a neutral base is an accurately descriptive title. Oppressor, whether you like it or not, was accurate of Garak, Gul Dukat, and pretty much any Cardassian that participated in some shape or form in the occupation. Not all Cardassian's were oppressors, but many of the Cardassian's we got to know in the series were. I'd imagine that the Bajoran's who participated in the event held similar title's such as Bajoran resistance fighter, and civilian. Maybe you could argue that it might have been better to give Garak the title "Cardassian Spy". I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to that, but I also don't think that "Cardassian Spy" accurately represents his role in the occupation.
Question. Would you call a spy for the Nazi's back during WWII a Jewish oppressor (oppressor is putting it lightly by the way, there are certainly more descriptive words that could be used)? Regardless of whether this spy spied on Jews, or spied on American's, the spy was doing what it could to bolster its country and by extension, the country's ideals and actions.
"Quickly it should be noted obviously it was but a historical review of the occupation should start from the begining where no one had committed a wrong I.e before occupation and worked on that to the end. Using oppressor from the get go is a form of rhetoric to discredit any opposing view he would bring up in the eyes of the audience."
Treating both sides impartially does not mean treating both sides as they were not in the wrong. There's a difference between wrong and right, being nice, and fairness. The Cardassian's were clearly in the wrong, and one could argue that many of the resistance fighters were also in the wrong. Garak himself admitted later in the series that he was in the wrong and that the Dominion would become Cardassian oppressors analogous to what the Cardassians were to the Bajorans.
Hey man sorry for the reply I'm from the UK haha.
Well yes the may have known he was a spy etc but that dosent necessarily mean he was working specifically in that area (true it is alluded to but it was seldom and not I think confirmed) he said to Zeyal he specifically picked DS9 as his place of residence. Again heresay I think wouldn't be wise to start from. (admittedly I'm aware this is probably the weakest part in my argument)
Ok and I did give what I believe would be a neutral basis. This is I think the first attempt they gave at documenting the historical event that was the occupation therefore to properly be neutral in my opinion would be to start at the beginning before either side had committed any moral wrong so just before the invasion. This means that Garak being labelled as an oppressor would be contrary to the conference ( in my understanding) His role was unknown so Cardassian spy is accurate. Resistance fighter is accurate and neutral instead of labelling them as for example Bajoran terrorist which carries negative connotations they say resistance fighter which is more neutral. In my opinion there was no need to label him as an oppressor because the institution he represented would have been evidently the oppressors by mere analysis of the facts which I think would be a better approach to have been taken seriously you cant expect the Bajorans to be unbiased here though the wouds are fresh and deep I know but I'm making an observation.
Well ok to answer your question. When I wrote my dissertation for my history class back in high school it was evident to me I believe that the majority of the German voting population did not vote for Hitler through the way the government ran the state (I.E Oppressively) and Human social nature many conformed because that was what society at large was doing. it does not make every individual whermacht trooper an all out Nazi the secret service was a government post dedicated to their state they are the last people that are expected to have pains of conscience in their work look at state secrets law in the UK for example there is no defence for spilling the guts over morality. So your Nazi spy in my opinion would be part of an oppressive regime but being such a small cog in said machine I think giving him the label of oppressor a bit hyperbolic. Although often times it is contextual I.E if he was SS it would be different as he made a conscious choice to actively hunt and kill jews and is easily assumed to believe the Nazi ideology. I believe this is true for many Cardassian citizens they were loyal to the state because it was what their society expected of them but I'm digressing.
The final point I agree with. But to be fair to your opposition you have to allow their views a degree of respect. For example the Nazis pushed for rocketry technology this was a positive as it helped stir innovation during the space race in the 60s it was a psotive impact the Nazis had on the world. However when looking at it with all the facts it is clear that in the grand scheme of things the Nazis done mostly wrong. Therefore the label of oppressor could be used for garak but awarded to the side of the argument he represents at the end of the debate as a conclusion I think would be more constructive.
"Hey man sorry for the reply I'm from the UK haha."
Why are you sorry? I love friendly discussion! There is no need to be sorry :)
"Well yes the may have known he was a spy etc but that dosent necessarily mean he was working specifically in that area (true it is alluded to but it was seldom and not I think confirmed) he said to Zeyal he specifically picked DS9 as his place of residence. Again heresay I think wouldn't be wise to start from. (admittedly I'm aware this is probably the weakest part in my argument)"
Two things here, he was on and off Terok Nor while the occupation occurred. He also chose to go back to Terok Nor/DS9 because it was the only place with cardassian's immediately after the occupation ended after he was exiled.
"This is I think the first attempt they gave at documenting the historical event that was the occupation therefore to properly be neutral in my opinion would be to start at the beginning before either side had committed any moral wrong so just before the invasion."
I'm not so sure they were documenting as much as they were discussing/debating various aspects of the occupation. I think this is one place where we fundamentally disagree though. I don't particularly see the use necessarily in starting your discussion on the events before the occupation, other than to explain why the occupation occurred. The occupation occurred because the Cardassian's needed resources.
Again, I think it is more useful to start a discussion from a few facts or truths that both sides can agree on. Some of those truths would be that the Cardassian's forcefully occupied Bajor, Bajorian's did not provide much resistance initially, and that Cardassian's setup the Bajorian Occupational Government. That is a neutral starting point and gives you specific points to branch off of and discuss.
"In my opinion there was no need to label him as an oppressor because the institution he represented would have been evidently the oppressors by mere analysis of the facts which I think would be a better approach to have been taken seriously you cant expect the Bajorans to be unbiased here though the wouds are fresh and deep I know but I'm making an observation."
You also can't expect the Cardassian's to be unbiased, which goes back to my point of what is neutral. The facts show that Garak played a part in the occupation of Bajor. No matter how small that part was, he still aided his government in "oppressing" an entire population. Pay specific attention to the beginning where Cisco states that "Bajorian's bent over backwards to be polite". That seems to imply that they respected his opinions and him as a Cardassian enough to politely disagree. I'm going to believe Cisco's analysis of the situation over Garak's 100% of the time because Garak is a serial liar, and Cisco has less of a dog in the fight.
"Although often times it is contextual I.E if he was SS it would be different as he made a conscious choice to actively hunt and kill jews and is easily assumed to believe the Nazi ideology."
You don't have to personally kill or enslave someone to oppress them. The Obsidian Order was one of the greatest intelligence organizations at the time. You can bet that operatives were constantly on covert missions to gain intelligence on the resistance in order to stop their various plots.
"For example the Nazis pushed for rocketry technology this was a positive as it helped stir innovation during the space race in the 60s it was a psotive impact the Nazis had on the world. However when looking at it with all the facts it is clear that in the grand scheme of things the Nazis done mostly wrong. Therefore the label of oppressor could be used for garak but awarded to the side of the argument he represents at the end of the debate as a conclusion I think would be more constructive."
We can find positives in literally every moment of our existence if we look hard enough. That does not justify murdering and enslaving millions of people. Again, I think in any debate you have to start from some foundational truths rather than starting from nothing as you put it. One of those foundational truths is that Cardassian's forcefully occupied Bajora, and in the process many lives were lost, families separated, and cultures destroyed. Giving Garak the title of oppressor does not stop him from sharing his opinion's on why he or why the Cardassian's did what they did, if anything it gives perspective.
Garak has a point. His nametag could have simply read:
"Elim Garak"
+SiriusMined yes, plain and simple
"Elim Garak - A Simple Tailor"
That's a creative name you got there
"Elim Garak, resident, Deep Space 9" if you have to be more specific than that.
They should've invited Worf. His name tag would read "Worf, not a merry man".
I would have paid real money for a "Family Guy"-style flashback shot of Garak with his "Elam Garak -- Former Cardassian Oppressor" name tag at the mixer, holding a drink and a plate of canapes.
Ha!
"And I must say, these hors d'ouvres are absolutely delicious. The poison adds just the right tinge of sweetness to the peppery seasonings. I am truly grateful for all those years of developing a resistance to such poisons, or I'd never be able to properly appreciate your chef's work..."
@@Archone666 I just read that in his voice. Although he'd probably add some comment about how if you really wanted a certain effect, you'd use Poison Y because Poison X didn't do the job right.
All of you: *chef's kiss*
@@Archone666 Have my baby please
Deep down Garak knows the occupation was a cavalcade of atrocities, and it never should have happened. He just can't help trolling everyone he meets 😆
''He just can't help trolling everyone he meets.'' Exactly! And that's why we love Garak.
He seems like he's trolling, but in all actuality the reason why Cardassian's largely believe it wasn't a war is because there was no actual war. The Bajorans were too weak to fight back for it to be a war. That's why they call it an occupation. Cardassian's have a twisted philosophy about many things, because their society is completely different in structure. They live in what is essentially a totalitarian state taken to the extremes. So things we might see as oppression, are just every day occurrences in their society, and seen as order. Fighting back against it is seen as disorder.
To be fair Garak has a point in both how the discussion was supposed to be a non-partisan historical debate and how the occupation was in a sense a benefit for the Bajorans as looking at how they developed it gave them many skills and taught them many things with which they would eventually teach to the Cardassians when the Dominion came along.
@@peoplez129 It isn't war, it's policing. It's a special operation. It's counter terrorism.
It's adjustment training. It's rehabilitation.
Oh, never mind. It's all just the greater good.
Honestly, given Garak's love for Cardassia, I doubt he'd have seen it as atrocities so much as wastes of perfectly good resources. If Garak were in charge, the Bajorans would have been kept JUST happy enough to serve the state at maximum effectiveness. There would have been no brutal put downs of rebellions, no public executions, because it never would have gotten that far. People would have just...disappeared.
If he'd have any issues with the occupation, it would have been about how unskillfully it were handled.
The finest thespians of Great Britain couldn't make that anymore drily hilarious. Garak could always make the most appalling shit sound hilarious.
hey12358y Like in the scene with Julian and Garak says "ESPECIALLY the lies."
+hey12358y Andrew Robinson may be American, but he trained at LAMDA, The London Academy of Music and Dramatic Art on a scholarship.
I always thought he was English doing a fake American accent until I found out that he wasnt.
He reminds me of the English in some ways and that clearly could be why.
We are the Best at anything Shakespearean.
@James Watson: And that is as it should be! As an American and a former thespian, I know just how hard it is to master Shakespeare. It is no surprise to me that those performers who actually have mastered his work would be his own kinsmen.
lol that was a good one. There's also that scene in the finale where he's about to be executed and asks if anyone has any last words. Even when he's told, "final words are not permitted" he still managed to say, "how disappointing"
The mental image of Garak walking around the conference and sitting with his legs crossed and a big innocent smile while a poster that says "former Cardassian oppressor" hangs from his neck is absolutely hilarious .
"Elim Garak, former cardassian oppressor", that isnt remotely polite, that is positively passive aggressive.
It is a dispassionate historical perspective, objectively correct
Well , if the shoe fits
Technically former spy is more specific
Ian H Yes but it’s not like “Oppressor” is a job title the way spy is. It would be correct to call a nazi spy an oppressor. Also, this is a throwaway line meant to be humourous
@@Spaecefaeries I know I was joking
Nametag:
"Elim Garak,
not Gul Dukat"
Gul Ducat would not have been allowed near the conference. Elim Garak, on the other hand, once showed mercy to a group of Bajorans, and was expelled from the Obsidian Order for it.
ahh that old piece of propaganda, the true reason Garak was removed from the obsidian order was he failed to pay his taxes on time.
The Obsidian Order pay taxes?
Yes, in blood.
@@DavidLemmo We never did find out why Garack was banished from Cardasia & cast out of the the Obsidian Order, beyond that in some way he disobeyed his secret father Enabran Tain head of the Obsidian Order.
As a teacher and historian, he raises such an important issue. History MUST be observed with differing perspectives so long as they are all based on facts, THAT is where historic issues and debates lie. It is counter-productive to have everyone bias-ly cherry picking historic fact for there own position on events
+jim haha yes of course, differing viewpoints is what i meant by differing perspectives, sorry for the in-clarity, as for the republican/Democrat anaolgy, absolutely. My favorite example of unintentional historic bias is WW2, jezz the atmosphere the class used to turn into when told to look at it from the german perspective, was like being asked to break a law, but in reality is a very important part of history :)
Nobody is ever entirely right or wrong, but every time contentious issues are brought up, it turns into a weird point-scoring apology for one side or the other. Worst of all, if you acknowledge that an opposing side was right on a part of an issue, it's interpreted as an endorsement of the entire ideology of that side! Everybody's so quick to try to paint their own side as virtuous and blameless that nobody can discuss the complexities of reality without people taking advantage!
Hell, even the Nazis figured out that smoking led to lung cancer before anybody else did (it didn't stop them from smoking, but they figured it out), but admitting that doesn't make you a Nazi sympathizer! it's just documenting a fact. It should be objective.
the event in question was only six years ago
ryang58 I know this is late but a true historians job is to be apathetic to political opinion and understand both sides. Even if the sources provided lean to the conclusion that one party is wrong. It is still immoral to judge. That is not a historians motive for study. I completely agree with you.
The first lesson we were told in university History was an anecdote about a policeman turning up the scene of a car accident. There are as many different accounts of what happened as there are people who saw it (or even more importantly who claimed to). The lesson was meant to teach us that History depends on one's own perspective.
Garak is the ultimate troll.
I thought it was Data
Which is why we appreciate him so much. Garak is the ultimate troll, the ultimate espionage agent, and might I add, a tailor who is a cut above the rest?
@@flynn659 data was human
Bajorans trolled him with his name tag Former oppressor
Garak: Gul Dukat did nothing wrong.
Elim Garak, carrying the tradition of reddit centrism into the 24th century
You can tell from the way he’s speaking he’s just trolling them all. The occupation shouldn’t be defended, but this conference gets him out of his holding cell and he gets to pretend like he gives a shit while messing with people who don’t want to debate :P
The sooner you realize that, the funnier this is
What I love is how Jazia trolls him back when he mentions his tag. "And what did you want them to say? *"Former *SPY"?"* Garak's twitch when he heard that one was priceless! XD
You've discovered the secret behind every "debate bro"
My thoughts exactly. He's not interested in real debate, but sharpening his tongue while getting a few kicks out of their reactions. He openly admits to lying in sport to Worf in "In Purgatory's Shadow."
That's the most in-character reason with Garak. Dukat would actually support the occupation in earnest--he did several times in-show already. Dumar didn't give a shit and just wanted to do his job and go home. Garak just can't help but jump at any verbal sparring match, which is why he hones in on the smartest member of the crew and debates literature with him every lunch. But Bashir wears on a person REALLY fast, and Garak needs to mix up his sparring partners now and then.
Drawing so much attention to himself and his history was probably not the smartest move, but Garak was miserable on the station and likely willing to risk trouble just to mix things up a bit.
Everyone on here fighting over if Garak was right... And here I am, wondering why they gave him a terrible name tag and everyone pretends he didn't.
To be fair 'former cardassian oppressor' is a pretty accurate description. For most of the occupation Garak was a fully fledged oppertive of the obsidian order.
+Fawkes
But the hosts did not know that.
As far as they know, he really is just a tailor.
Please. Who doesn't know Garak was really a spy?
MirrorDimly
Everybody who does not know him personally.
Yes, was the subtitle to the name tag necessary? The name alone would have been enough and his simple presence at such a conference would have indicated that he was considered important.
Man, something about the sound design here really made this feel like a closed space.
I don't think it's just the low background hum. I think they're doing something to how their voices resonate. Whether it's through set design acoustics or some post processing of some kind I don't know. Either way, it's subtle and impressive.
No other show has dialogue or worldbuilding this good, Trek or otherwise
Garak is one of the best characters in American television history. Up there with Walter White and Archie Bunker.
With all the good science fiction out there I don’t know how you can make this statement
Gosh, true. They just effortlessly make so much happen "off screen"
Babylon 5 would like to disprove that statement. 😋
@@Mr_T_Badger I hear this, makes me wanna watch that series. Should I start B5 if I miss star trek?
Garak sounds like he’s posting on reddit
More than half the comments here have the same ...
Garak sounds like he was otherized by the wokest race around.
Wait?!? But Garak said it!!! It must be correct, true, and what I also have to think!!! Fuck those Bajorans! Bajorans reked by facts and logic 😎
@@UncannyComics Lmao, thank you for this beautiful satire. The number of people wholeheartedly agreeing with Garak in this comment section is upsetting.
NTA
While I would have been content, back in the day, spending the remainder of my life counting all the spots on Jadzia Dax, I would truly sit and listen (for hours) in total silence to Garak telling ghost stories at a campfire. His delivery is beyond perfection and he has the voice that is both soft and polite and somehow menacing at the same time.
Garak was always my favorite ancillary DS9 character. I love his dialog. I was watching the 2 parter "Improbable Cause" and "The Die is Cast" the other day. The scenes with him and Odo are just so well written. I love TNG but DS9 will always be my favorite.
I believe both TNG and DS9 were the top of Star Trek writing ever. Unless you count some of the movies, these two series had a writing to their storylines and characters that no other Trek series trully managed to live up to. At least, in my humble opinion.
@@MrDibara I was never a Trekkie but last year I watched all of TNG and now I am just finishing DS9. Absolutely the best TV ever.
Imagine being Odo, being in love with a woman who was a dedicated member of the Resistance, feeling guilt for not picking a side in the Occupation, and then being held up as a paragon of justice and a "legend" for walking the edge of being a collaborator in order to impose order on chaos . . . when chaos was arguably the better condition. An orderly, and thereby more efficient, occupation served the goals of the Cardassians, and hindered those of the Bajoran Resistance. Odo realized that by this point in the series, and being lauded for his actions during the Occupation just rubbed his face in it.
Very well put, I'm saving this
Also I can't remember exactly where this is on the timeline. But that very need for order is exactly why Odo's people created The Dominion.
The most orderly societies are often authoritarian ones after all.
Freedom is often chaotic and messy by definition.
@@thebobbrom7176 I thought the founders created the dominion to defend themselves from violent solids?
that's what they want you to think. @@hannibalb8276
@@hannibalb8276 That implies that the Founders were telling the truth about their origin. If they wiped out any challengers its just as easy to imagine them being totalitarian from the start and due to victors writing history that is the current "truth".
"Less posturing and more debate"
Tell me again: are we meant to dislike this man?
No. Certainly not by the time this episode happens, he became one of the most loved recurring characters in the show.
You're meant to be sitting there wondering whether you should like him and conflicted about whether you do. Good job.
Andrew Robinson has always played interesting characters and Garak was interesting from his first moment on STDS9. He made it impossible to dislike him.
In many ways Garak is like an old racist grandparent. He's actually quite charming, but he was also raised in a society that condoned some pretty horrific things. So you may like him as a person, but hate his political leanings. To Garak's credit, he eventually does come to realize the errors of that society, admit them, and even work to fix them.
I mean the question at hand is whether or not the occupation of a planet and the enslavement of an entire race Garak sees as utterly inferior is justified.
Avery/Sisko has such an incredible voice.
It´s almost mesmerizing.
His final line make the whole scene nothing short but epic.
"Former Cardassian oppressor"?! He still looks Cardassian to me.
No it was more meant to be "the Cardassians used to be oppressors"
lol
LMAO
@@thomastakesatollforthedark2231 it’s a joke
Ha haaaa...semantics.
This scene was really made all the better when, later in the episode and one time-travel-shenanigan later, Garek saw what Bajorans went through and he said "I don't recall it being this bad."
He of course knew full well how he would be received, he was just bored of living on the station and wanted to mess with people
Oh, I wouldn't be surprised AT ALL if that was the case! XD
At the same time, it was a bit unreasonable to put "Former Cardassian Oppressor" on the nametag.
Otherwise, I'm sure he was happy to give them a "Gul Darheel" performance like they wanted, but still would've preferred to give them an accurate account of the Cardassian side in the hopes Bajor wouldn't repeat their mistakes down the lines
What the Cardassians did was morally wrong and abhorrent. However, Garak is right in that he should have been given a chance to explain his side of the story - at least explain why they did what they did.
I always read this scene as the writing staff admitting they too were sick of hearing Dukat justify running a slave camp.
geniusofmozart They acted according to their nature and according to their orders. Some, like Gul Darhe'el, are evil, whereas others occupy that grey area like Gul Dukat before his breakdown. And still others, like Gul Damar, are good men that are patriots, raised in a different mindset that meant that, to them, it was NOT morally wrong and abhorrent. It was a way of life.
It's the old argument of if you've been raised the same way and told the same thing for a thousand years, you'll believe what you've been told to be right because surely someone else would've objected if it were wrong.
lygophile But those people would've been crushed down, pushed aside and their voices made silent under the weight of the majority drowning them out. So not even other objectors can hear them. History is written by the majority and the victors.
+geniusofmozart Isnt that the whole point of history? Understanding the justification used on the other side for why they did what they did. They don't need to believe or condone it just understand. Garak was right in his thoughts on the matter.
MrNintoku yeah, that's (iirc) the actor's take on this scene. Garak doesn't care that the Bajorans think his people are mass murderers and corrupt (having been part of the Obsidian order, a true patriot, and screwed over bc of his patriotism, he knows that better than anyone.) He's disappointed the Bajorans are allowing their moralistic nature to keep them from truly understanding why the Cardassians did what they did or why they're so able to write it off as no big deal. After all, that'll make them less effective at dealing with future threats in the long run.
It's the same reason he smiles approvingly when someone is incredibly cynical or suspicious of him. Those are the things that've helped him survive so he's happy to see it in others.
at least they gave him a name tag.
Right? XD
Now I'm picturing Garak sitting at a table with a raktajino in his hand, with a sign in front that reads, "The occupation really wasn't that bad. Change my mind."
"what did you want it to say"
how about "Elim Garak". maaaybe something like that would be decent.
"Just a plain and simple tailor"
Could have been worse, they could have given a name tag reading "Disgraced Cardassian Exile".
@@EmeralBookwise That’s terrible!!!. Love it.
yet again Andy J Robinson is the best actor ever and Garek is a badass, tobad he is like 70 because id love to see him play Garek again
Reading this comment made me think of a future Garek as an elderly Cardassian telling stories of old in his tailor shop to annoy customers while knitting a scarf.
Why? 70 year old are still allowed to act.
@@anthonycunningham8116 I don’t get why people keep on getting with the mentality that old =/= Star material. I wish older actors were used in main roles more often and not resided to shitty comedies and old people dramas.
He plays garak in star trek online. And he is the same old garak. It's implied that he was also a temporal agent.
Those were the times when Star Trek was intelligent.
Shame they don't make them like this anymore... :\
And even if they did, people would still complain. Especially if there was anything remotely political, like there was here. Give people everything they want, and they'll still bitch about it. So after a while, one has to just stop trying.
@@k1productions87 that's the very reason peace and war are wax and wane functions. The warriors want peace and the complacent little ones who forgot war really want it again.
@@tyhutchinson2499 and old disgruntled fans always want some kind of "us vs. them" fight, and so they keep going back to it with every single new Trek series that has ever been made. They complain that they are not being listened to, when they are exactly who SHOULDN'T be listened to, because they are impossible to please.
If they were listened to, everything that made DS9 great would not exist. It would have just been a stagnant retread of TNG... which is unfortunately what much of Voyager became.
I love the whole damn cast of this show.
Since this episode, I'm unable to unsee the spoon on the cardassian heads.
Nor can most, hence the word "Spoonhead" was frequently used as a racial slur against them.
The original inspiration for the make up was a surrealist painting of a woman with a spoon on her head.
@@Djarra : I actually heard back in the day that the inspiration was a "magic trick" that one of the Kardashian kids had done. I think this was back in the 80s, before the mom's first husband (a famous music producer, and the original reason they were famous) had died.
That's where the name came from too.
AND THEN he walks over and odo was sitting right there! The whole time! That ALWAYS gets me
The irony here is that *GARAK* is taking the stance the Federation typically claims is ideal. Sisko and Dax are being the biased assholes.
...Now whether Garak is merely taking said position simply to be contrary and stir up trouble versus actually wanting to keep an objective view of history...well that's another matter entirely.
It's just another part of DS9 deconstructing the ideals of the federation. While Garak might be true, it is just not realistic to have an open debate with formerly oppressed people after only a few years have passed. Sisko and Dax are merely not giving a shit, because both of them know, there is no point in arguing over it. Realism deconstructs idealism. The idealism only stays true in the form of Odo, since he only judges himself and his own actions but nothing else.
Oh he definitely just wanted to stir up trouble and get to lie and joke a bunch. Those are some of his top favorite things, I doubt history has much interest to him outside of learning from others mistakes.
i mean what exactly about federation ideals would actually consider garak's position valid? prime directive means not interfering sometimes, but that doesn't mean not being philosophically against oppression and judgmental about it--just in circumstances where it's not your place to interfere to let history run its course, mostly in terms of prewarp civilizations but also with some diplomatic aspect to not interfering with internal matters of other interstellar powers, although the latter aspect of the prime directive is often more pragmatic diplomacy than principle based. I see literally nothing in federation idealism that supports Garak's position.
@@brianpadraig a chance at an open, non biased debate would be a start
@@dmonitize9011 what makes you think that's not possible according to federation ideals? of course starfleet officers have to follow those principles, they can't just make up their own ad hoc principles to follow individually, but what's the evidence that federation citizens or academics don't do open and honest debates about things including the federation's principles? even starfleet officers regularly end up sometimes debating the merits of fed principles before begrudgingly following them or finding some loophole through them, I could think of plenty of TNG examples of that... I think this is just a common fan projection onto the federation by fans who want to have some kind of edgy take on it lol.
I need to rewatch DS9
+DartLuke If you have Netflix in on there for the watching
The Legend of the Galactic Heroes novels are now in translation, for when you're done with that. The evil racist empire was evil and racist 500 years ago, now it's just tired and it can't genocide non-white non-Germanic people because it hasn't seen one for centuries. Meanwhile the government of the brave rebels fighting for freedom and democracy willingly send millions to die in an ill-conceived operation because the "liberation" will look good on the news. Great stuff with no clear-cut goodies and baddies.
I've rewatched it 9 times this year
Hulu
I love how they're all praising Odo WHILE making fun of him.
Garak, the ultimate Cardassian renaiassance man.
I liked how, even though Odo might typically have had this reaction regardless of the circumstances...you can still see his trepidation here isn't normal for even him. You can see how he still feels guilt. Such great acting and character development. Now I need to rewatch this series! Thanks a lot!
The number of people in this comments section wholeheartedly defending Garak's position is... scary. Knowing Garak, he was trying to stir the pot and play devil's advocate rather than be helpful.
Also, acknowledging multiple perspectives is one thing, but the goal of historical study should not exclusively be to maintain a neutral "unbiased" view of social and political occurrences. The goal of history is not to present opposing forces as equal and opposite, but to understand the motivations behind both forces and learn to promote or avoid those motivations.
We don't study the perspective of the Nazis because we "need to be neutral," we do so because in understanding what led to their mistakes we can work to avoid them in the future. *Purely factual history is useless without the empathy needed to learn from our mistakes.*
Thank you! I am honestly terrified at how many people here are missing the point entirely
Feelings do not have a place in the recording of a historical event when those feelings are ingrained INTO the recording. Empathy is something that we are to give the external observer the benefit to experience or ignore. This silly doctrine that you have to ingrain emotion into documentation is literary fancy and will only result in pushing people further into a counter-perspective of extremes because you're effectively trying to MANIPULATE them into tugging on an emotion. By encapsulating such notions you only enable those who are indifferent the opportunity to morph into that of indignance and offense. Give facts, but don't manipulate them in such a way that you want to deliberately get a rise or tear from the audience that isn't privy to such an incident so they are more accepting of the context of the situation. You will ultimately garner more favor by detailing in pure fact in regards to the dissection of historical occurrences and incidents of that ilk instead of putting in a heavy-handed tear that will only ultimately drive people off because human beings don't like to be told whether they should feel happy or sad on a matter. Don't posturize the human condition; that is what Garak's message is, as horrifying as the Cardassian occupation had been. Leave the sympathy for the observers, the audience and the readers to decide upon.
"Former Cardassian Oppressor" isn't an occupation; it is a "tag" that has the brunt of emotion and outrage, understandable as it is. History deals in facts. I don't want to be told a story. I want to know what happened; the events; the logistics; etcetera, etcetera ... and I believe that people have a right to decide to which degree they are detached or outraged with events at hand. If not, we might as well pick and choose what we want to keep. I'm sure Kim Jong-Un and Joseph Stalin could give us a few pointers there: sarcasm very much intended.
@@Sizdothyx Agree, the tag itself is wrong because that it is charged with more than just fact, but given his response, I'd say that Garak wasn't exactly arguing in good faith, himself. We also have to remember that this "history" happened around 5 years ago, in show time. It's almost the equivalent of asking Holocaust survivors in 1950 to give a former Nazi soldier/spy a nametag. Not an excuse for the Bajorans' mildly ill will here, given the circumstances, just an explanation.
Has it really been 20 years? Wow.
Great to see a snippet of what I remember so fondly.
Thanks!
Welcome to 2016, Garak.
Such a flawless scene. And DS9 is full of them! I'm so glad I found this gem ..., some 4-5 year ago.
I don't think Garak would appreciate his name sharing the same space as Gul Dukat's... Unless he knew that Gul Dukat knew about it and hated it more than Garak.
Pretty sure Garak would just say "Finally, something we agree about. We are NOT associated!"
That was a joke, that line was from the Season 3 premiere "The Search Part I" when they began searching for The Dominion after their aggressive first contact. They asked a member race of The Dominion who was reluctant to give info. He had an exchange with Sisko that when like this:
Him: All that I know is that the Vorta tell you to do something and then you do it.
Sisko: And why's that?
Him: Because if you do not, they will send in the Jem'Hadar...and then you die.
One of my favorites.
Shiiiiiiit maaaaaan! That's one of my favourites too!
The most unrealistic bit is the idea that an occupied people would have any praise for a law enforcement officer who worked for the occupier, regardless of how honest that officer had been. How many police officers working in Vichy France were celebrated after the war for their "unbiased commitment to maintaining order"?
A Vichy police officer would be comparable to a collaborator. The Bajorans had no tolerance for them. Odo was... something else. Even the Carassians weren't certain what to make of him. As far as they knew he was the result of a Cardassian scientist's experiments with a strange goo sample he'd found, an unkillable shapeshifting entity that couldn't be stopped with violence but mostly just wanted to maintain law and order.
The Bajorans respected him because A: they knew they were far more likely to see justice if Odo was involved, and B: Odo never looked down his nose at them and claimed he was superior and that their oppression was deserved.
Are there people here who are taking what Garak is saying seriously?! Holy Christ!
Bashir: "But the point is, if you lie all the time, nobody's going to believe you, even when you're telling the truth."
Garak: "Are you sure that's the point, doctor?"
Bashir: "Of course, what else could it be?"
Garak: "That you should never tell the same lie twice..."
He's doing it for giggles. He's an assassin and "interrogator" with a love for picking whatever position will agitate someone most. The guy was kicking himself for not shooting Dukat in the back and when called out because shooting someone in the back is kinda scummy he blinks and answers "It's the safest way to do it."
Julian Francisco Just because Garak lies some, or most of the time, doesn't mean he's always lying or is never being sincere. There are obviously a lot of times throughout the series when he's telling the truth, and he seems to be very passionate about his love and loyalty for Cardassia.
Even if he went to the conference with no other intent than to bother the Bajorans, even he would probably become irritated with their disparaging of his homeland after enough time.
DediJ8k Those times where Garak is sincere he's remorseful of what happened on Bajor and feels it's important for Cardassians to realize the extent of what happened. It's why he praises Kira when she responds bitterly to Dumar's shock that the Founders would kill civilian and soldier alike.
And no he wouldn't get annoyed bc the guy might as well get off on antagonizing people. One of the few ways to get him to approve of you is by refusing to believe he could possibly mean well. A bunch of Bajorans pointing out he helped facilitate the enslavement of their world wouldn't do anything besides get that Cheshire Cat grin on his face.
Also, Garak does not lie some or most of the time. He lies ALL the time. It's something he's very proud of and that Enabrin admires about him. Getting tortured? Drugged? Losing his sanity? Garak will still find a way to obscure the truth and get in a smart ass comment.
+Julian Francisco Why tell the truth when a lie will suffice?
+Julian Francisco Julian, indeed, you would know since you spent a long time trying to figure out Garek's first name... and you are superhuman too!
so he was a troll before troll was even a thing!
i honestly have to wonder what gark said at the confference.
+thewewguy8t88 Probably something more reasonable than Gul Dukat. Or else none of the people in that shuttle will be conversing with his so politely.
Here's my guess:
- the Bajorans claim inflated numbers of dead compared to the Cardassian numbers, they list people who have left the planet as dead
- punishing the families of known resistance members is the only option against a hidden foe, it's unreasonable to think they should risk more soldiers instead of putting the screws at "innocent" civilians who likely support the rebels
@@Sraye
Gul dukat actually made good poinys until the superior race part.
He is right that the one of the biggest issues during his reign was pride.
The bajorans didn't want an end to oppression or better Living standards. They wanted independence at any cost. Even if dukat completely ended oppressive rule, bajor would never accept being governed by cardassia. And would probably continue resistance fighting.
Yeah, it probably had something to do with correcting inconsistencies in the records the Bajorans had, which would obviously upset the Bajorans. But like in any situation, if you view things from only one side, youre going to get things wrong.
@@JP-rf8rr yes in waltz a few things he said do not count for nothing but he was not someone trying a bad situation better. As you said he believed the barons simply refused to accept thier place.
Loved this episode. They go back in "time" (so to speak) and relive the life of 4 bajorans before they are executed. Amazing episode.
Odo just look like, "I don't give a damn."
well you've seen the episode, right? He kinda had a lot on his mind...
Steven Toyen He always had a lot on his mind, he wasn't ever happy or looked properly happy until he met that holographic child and also started falling in love with Kira.
Laurence Ferrett
They soon found out what he had on his mind, and it wasn't quite something that would bolster his reputation.
Augustus Shockley I mostly forgot the episode, a somewhat forgettable one for me. But I liked that Odo had that dark secret, his failure as a person by taking the easy way out. (Sorry, no spoilers folks)
You will never find a "dispassionate historical perspective" within just a few years of any event. Takes decades until personal investments into what happened dulls and unaffected minds start replacing the old ones. Especially in places that were directly affected.
This makes me think the essence or programming of the changelings was so absolute that even Odo tries to fulfill the task of his people in his own way and does not know it.
My brother never got into Star Trek, but when he saw this clip he told me he could see why my dad and I love this series.
"And what did you want it to say, former spy?" Well, way to offer up an alternative, Dax.
I love Garak's little eye-roll he gives as he's trying to change the subject. It's like he's saying "I swear to God, Dax, you're making me _this close_ to losing my composure!", all the while I can picture Jadzia just grinning mischieviously. XD
Forgot about this scene. Good stuff. :P A legend is born. Odo.
Of course Garak is rigth in what he says but you have to consider that he uses speech only as an instrument. He will appeal to indecency and mistreatment when it aids his cause and he will lie and distort the next day, when it's necessary. A conference organized by him would probably be much more subtle in it's bias but it would be biased nontheless. He is a Cardassian nationalist.
Rubashow no person is without bias
Eh. He loves Cardassia (wow my autocorrect capitalized that... I love the internet) but he isn't a nationalist. He could care less if his government where to die out, as long as his planet and people survive
@@thomastakesatollforthedark2231 This is just wrong... he has a whole speech to Bashir about how duty to the state is the epitome of Cardassian existence. He's a fascist nationalist, that's his character, a convincing one, but still a fascist. The fact that people are so taken in by him saying a lot.
@@VyreXP honestly, im sensing projection from people who want to "dispassionately and objectively" talk about why American slavery and the holocaust were ok, and feel offended when people dont go along. maybe im getting a false positive, the internet ha s away of making you think everyone is a closet scumbag, but im picking up phrasings and dog whistles that make it sound familiar to lost cause enthusiasts and apologists for the third Reich..
I love the reveal that Odo has been sitting there the whole time. This show was better than anyone deserved it to be.
It seems strange that they let him talk at all. He still had a horrible reputation. He was basically all alone on the station, bar his cold friendship with Bashir. Starfleet and the Bajoran government knew he was a former, and occasionally active, spy that still longed for his home.
"Former Cardassian opressor" gets me every time :D Good story writting :)
1:15 AHHHH! Suddenly, Odo's on the runabout!
PLOTWIST! *_He has been there aaaaaall aloooong._* You were just too distracted by the magnificence of Garak. ;)
@@MrDibara Aren't we all?
@@PaperbackWizard _Hee hee!_ 😁
I've always thought of Odo as being a pretty good example of a Lawful Neutral. Granted he's tip-toeing the line against Lawful Good, but, ultimately, law and order is his primary purpose.
they had to write on the name tag that he is a kardasian? why, have they forgoten what one looks like?
Gotta just make sure "oppressor" is emphasized because it's an important distinction since not all of them went there
And this is why people like Garak.
Good God, Terry Farrell was beautiful.
I had such a crush on her as a teen, watching this show. You know those spots supposedly go all the way down, don't you?
Excuse, me they are not spots, they are beauty marks
This was a great episode...the way all were forced to relive a mistake Odo made during the occupation...and that some thought less of him for making the mistake.
And the irony of the Odo reveal later...
I will never forget that this was the very first time I met Garak. I remember sitting next to my Dad, who introduced me to DS9 in the first place, and he got all excited and fanboy like when Garak came on. I was 14 at the time, I believe, and like any teen my first thought was that I would hate Garak. But he completely won me over and is now one of my favourite characters 😊😊
I mean y'all are kind of ignoring that this is basically like an ex-Nazi turning up to a Holocaust Survivor's conference and being like "Ayy, but, you know, we weren't all bad, amirite?"
Victims of that sort of brutality are under no obligation to be polite to the people who inflicted it on them and it's mad to me that people don't get that.
admittedly, i'm not fully up on my DS9 lore, but I don't think the Cardassians were full on "nazis" on Bajor. I think it would probably be closer to an agent of the British Empire showing up to a conference about the British Rule by some colony after getting violently kicked out a few years before.
@@luciussulla2641 Nooooo, dude. There were full on death camps, slave labour, mass executions, rapes, torture - the entire point of the Cardassian occupation, as explained by the writers themselves, was to be allegorical to the Holocaust but on a planetary scale and over the course of fifty years. It's made pretty explicit. It's why things like this in the writing annoy me a little because it's sort of like... the writers having their cake and eating it, too? You can't lay it out as explicitly to be allegorical to the Holocaust and have someone like Garak not take it seriously - especially given how a biiiig part of Garak's arc is his deep, miserable regrets over his part in the atrocities.
ODO was Nazi
@@maltgeezer7439 he was certainly a collaborator? He was a Centrist - his primary concern was the Status Quo and order, nothing else.
But it says something about Centrists that in this situation Odo is indistinguishable from a Cardassian.
I heard someone once telling "Without slavery no subculture and without subculture no Rap Music!" A dispassionate historical perspective? I don't know. I just decided to get wasted hours later in a bar.
Technically that's true... it doesn't make the slavery and oppression even remotely justified, of course. If you make someone's life a living hell and they grow strong and tough and rise to greatness because of it, that doesn't mean you don't deserve the ass-kicking they have in store for you once they're able to give you the beating you so richly deserve.
(Or to put it another way, Sherman did a great job "thanking" the South on behalf of the slaves)
Personally I belong to a culture that has contributed a great deal to advancements in art, cuisine, music, technology, and more, because of centuries of oppression and persecution. We're quite proud of our accomplishments... and we're also proud of outlasting so many of the nations, groups, and organizations who oppressed and persecuted us. You won't hear us thanking the Catholic Church for what it did to us anytime soon.
RIP Rene Auberjonois
Oh no... 😥 🖖Rene
This is a great episode. It's DS9 ar its best. It deals with collaboration, a highly nuanced, ambiguous phenomenon.
So this video showed up amidst a feed of political back-and-forth footage posts.
Thoroughly impressed by Star Trek's ability to remain relevant.
And shocked that Google's algorithms allowed it through the tide of controversial nonsense.
The more I think about it the more "Former Oppressor" actually makes sense to me as what you would put on someone's credentials at an academic conference like that. It's the reason he has anything worth contributing to the conversation. Garak "Tailor" can have an opinion, but there isn't much reason to listen to that opinion. Garak "Former Oppressor" has something that he can contribute to a conversation about what happened.
This is why I like star trek. There is chill and not a lot of drama bs or a lot of non stop action. Just a group of friends enjoying their company in space and exploration. I do love the space battles tho when it happens. The new star trek isn't star trek anymore especially the Picard series which takes a dump on star trek.
I hear you man I hear you.
Friendly reminder that Garak participated in torture and other interrogation methods, likely applied on bajoran children as well.
read the book the actor wrote that is a bio of Garak. garak never tortured anyone he thought was innocent
When you put it that way, Odod is very emo, and he acts like he doesn't have emotions. I think what I like about him is his dedication to justice and how good he is at his job. Garak on the other hand makes morally questionable decisions for the "greater good" I suppose it is related to Spock's philosophy of the needs of the many.but I would rather have justice done the right way then sacrificing morality. What I like about both of them is how they start out so enigmatic.
And it's kind of endearing how later on both Odo and Garak develop a mutual respect for each other. I guess that goes to show that, despite their differences, their end goals were probably more similar then they initially thought.
The Vorta were small ape-like creatures, a family of Vorta hid a Changeling while they were wounded after being hunted by humanoids. "In return, the Changeling promised that one day they would be transformed into powerful beings and placed at the head of a vast interstellar empire that would stretch across the galaxy." It's such tragic irony that the Changelings started The Dominion to protect themselves form the persecution of humanoids only to turn around and do the same thing.
Someone once pointed out that Garak is the best example of a True Neutral Alignment character.
Eh...he varies some. But it's somewhat close.
More chaotic lawful
Odo will forever be the greatest character in fictional history
Was he really? Or was Garak just playing up the part of "former oppressor" :P That's what I love about Garak you can never take anything he says or does strictly at face value he was always on, always playing an angle, always a spook, ever the spy master.
They gave him the nametag, so he decided to play the role.
So few words spoken , yet so much meaning perspires -.-
Garak for President. He just skewered the 2016 election in the States. No one could talk to each other because of hot salt. Just stagnant stewing in their own funk.
Make Cardassia great again 😛
Its even worse now. We are only allowed to listen to one side of the story, and it just so happens to be the side that "won". The very same people that spent four years complaining about election interference and instigating endless investigations are now saying everything is fine and nobody is allowed to check. Stuff like this is what Garak was talking about. If only one side is allowed to be heard, anything can be made to be the "truth" and we have no choice but to just believe it. Because, apparently, questioning our leaders is now a "danger to Democracy".
@@SvendleBerries that is not what is happening. one side is actually based entirely on lies and innuendos and the other on actual facts. Conservatives are pretending its a parallel situation while making bad faith arguments and logically inconsistent statements, but its false equivalencies to try and justify a genuine 4 year clusterfuck of nonstop lies and equivocation.
@@ryanweible9090
- *"one side is actually based entirely on lies and innuendos and the other on actual facts."*
Its interesting how the side that constantly claims to hate billionaires gets all of their information from them and trusts them implicitly. You should probably stop doing that. Take BLM for example: They are literally a Marxist organization aimed at basically destroying western society. Now, thats been called a far right conspiracy, the thing is though that its been said by the very people that founded. Hell, its even on their website. You should go take a look. Stop believing everything youre told. If asking questions seems absurd or even wrong, then whats right other than absolute obedience?
Contrary to popular belief, the left have controlled nearly all of society all this time. Education, entertainment, social media, nearly every mainstream news organization. Nearly every major system in place is controlled by the left, yet Im always led to believe they are the underdogs fighting the man...no. They ARE the man, and have been for the past four years.
@@SvendleBerries I'd like to toss in the name George Soros. He's been banned from several countries for deliberately attempting to destabilize the government. Guess where he has his sights set at the moment, and what groups he's been funding?
"And a legend was born..."
Even delivering a teasing jibe, Avery Brooks makes it sound badass.
Kinda with Garak on this one.
_Eh._ While the Bajorans _did_ exaggerate, they weren't exactly wrong either. XD
I'm pretty sure all the viewers were lol
This scene never gets old.
This is a funny scene, but in all seriousness, Garak could not possibly be this naive. The only thing I can think of is that everything he is saying is just dry humor to him. Of course the Bajorans aren't going to see anything "his" way. Ever. Garak is too smart to not know this. He was goofing on Sisko and Jadzia here.
+sunnchilde A cut scene reveals that going to the conference gets him out of the holding cell he's been in for a few months (following his attempt to destroy the Founders) but he probably had some motive. Perhaps it was an opportunity to 'deal' with a Bajoran who was an enemy of Tain's. After all he tells Tain that all his enemies are dead when Tain is dying and a couple of the names mentioned could be Bajoran rather than Cardassian.
Possibly. But I imagine it would be far easier to kill a Bajoran than a Cardassian. If Tain wanted a Bajoran dead, he could just destroy that entire province.
There's a scene between him and Worf in another episode where he says that he has to keep up the practice of lying in order to be good at it. So it wouldn't surprise me if all this was just him honing his deception skills.
sunnchilde But one who slipped through the net at the end of the occupation and is now living on Bajor happily.
I dont think Tain was involved with the Occupation. His main concern as head of the Obsidian Order was the loyalty of Cardassia to iits government.
siskos best acting is when hes talking off camera at another character
0:21 `Garek, you were trying to defend the military occupation of their world` ... remind me again, why didn't the Federation step in earlier?
Prime Directive doesn't apply, both civilizations were either warp-capable or had warp knowledge from previous generations.
they were probably freaking horrified of the Dominion. Starfleet at the time wasn't inherently a full military organization, and i doubt they wanted to deal with what amounted to a Borg-level threat before they were ready.
@@KaaneDragonShinobi Dominion didn't show up until way later. I'm talking about decades of Federation inaction long before DS9 even became a Federation outpost. At the very least, after the TNG episode that introduced the Bajorans.
Because the Federation are hypocrites. Plain and simple.
The Federation and the Cardassians had fought a war to a stale-mate, resulting in a peace treaty. So the Federation probably did not feel confident in their ability to actually liberate Bajor successfully. The Federation is also interested in peace- sometimes moreso than is really appropriate. I'm sure a lot of Federation citizens are more or less non-interventionist, especially if intervention means fighting a war themselves.
@@bobpage6597 This isn't about hypocrisy.
The praise and defense of Garak commented here is truly disturbing.
The only reasonable take: The Cardassian occupation was the best thing to happen to Bajor, since it transformed them from an agrarian backwater society with a rigid oppressive religious caste system to a modern regional power as an economic hub.
If the Cardassian Occupation was so bad, why would the Prophets allow it?
The technological advancement via the Cardassian Occupation of Bajor was all part of the Propets' plan for the Bajorans.
Think about it, they got Warp, healthcare, infrastructure, technology beyond a plow and a potter's wheel, the ability to defend themselves, etc.
Had the Prophets not allowed the Cardassians to occupy Bajor, they would've been the first to fall to the Dominion, and no one would've cared or noticed.
In fact, the "genocide" that happened under the Cardassians over the course of the 50 or so year occupation had a yearly death toll that was less than that of a standard flu outbreak.
If you’re rewatching this episode, you realize that everything they say to Odo feels like it hits extra hard, even if you already got the sense that he’s thinking about a regret the first time you watched the episode.
Well, the Bajorans, who had a stable civilization dating back into antiquity, were conquered by the Cardassians largely because during that same time their volatile society had suffered repeated cycles of economic collapse. Cardassian fascism was essentially an attempt to stabilize their unstable society. Why would the Bajorans sympathize? They were invaded and enslaved simply because the Cardassians couldn't make their own economy work any other way. Other civilizations (innumerable ones in fact) managed to achieve stable economies without becoming Nazis.
+Daniel S Can't agree more. That was from the product of civil war, lack of resources, and a need for national pride, exactly as TNG and DS9 laid it out. I don't think they intended the back story to be so similar to Nazi Germany, but they clearly wanted Nazi's out there.
The sad thing holds true in human history too. The Romans expanded because they needed resources, the Germans invaded Rome's borders because they needed land and food after fleeing the Huns. The Huns pushed the Germans off their land because they were being Pushed by several Asian steppes peoples like the Qiang, and the Qiang in turn were forced out by civil wars from an expanding China.
It becomes a desperate goal when someone realizes they don't have the luxury of time to solve their problems while a population is struggling. So the easiest gamble of them all to make is take what's needed from your neighbors.
There were plenty of worlds in the Star Trek Universe to harvest resources from without the need to hurt other civilizations or enslave a group of people. For that very reason, it isn't particularly analogous to any of your examples regardless of the fact that the Bajoran's were having economic troubles. It also does not justify the Romans, Mongols, or any other civilization's lust for power and control. The Roman Empire probably would have lasted far longer had it tried to work with its neighbors. In the short term is was probably much more profitable for the Romans to have gone to war, in the long term it brought the downfall of their civilization.
@Arkone Axon No that is not really true. One of the biggest reasons why Rome eventually fell was because they over expanded (conquered neighboring lands). Because of this they had to spend a ridiculous amount of money on bolstering their military because they were constantly being attacked by their neighbors. They were able to defend themselves for a time, because they had a lot of money (but weren't generating much new income because they were unable to expand), but in the end it became their downfall. Money spent on military was taken away from improving infrastructure and the lives of its citizens. The populous slowly began rebelling, for a number of reasons, and ultimately the citizens of Rome stopped volunteering to be in the military. After that the rest is history.
Rome was really no different from any of your other examples other than they were able to keep it going longer. That wasn't because they worked with their neighbors, it's because they defeated literally every super power (at the time) around them and were able to gain a pretty significant technological advantage on their enemies.
@@alexcauthen9546 Alex Cauthen No, the Romans worked to avoid the whole "conquest and total war" thing, which is why they lasted as long as they did... until they stopped trying to avoid it.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pax_Romana
"Augustus' challenge was to persuade Romans that the prosperity they could achieve in the absence of warfare was better for the Empire than the potential wealth and honor acquired when fighting a risky war."
The Romans worked to achieve this relative peace (emphasis on "relative." Of course there was still fighting, but far less than at other times) through a variety of means. First of all, the occupants of every conquered territory (generally people who had been in the habit of attacking Rome until Rome finally grew strong enough to stop them by force) were given the option of either full Roman citizenship, or partial citizenship and the right to maintain their legal and political traditions. This resulted in a stable and multicultural situation, marred mainly by uprisings by provinces that demanded the rights of full citizens while maintaining the status of partial citizenship (wanting to have their cake and eat it too).
In addition, there was a huge focus on infrastructure - there's that excellent scene in "Life of Brian" where the resistance leaders demand, "what have the Romans ever given us?" and realize the answer is "a lot." Ancient Roman roads are still used in modern Italy; they look like cheap rough roads today, but at the time they were magnificent and smooth highways as fine as modern roads, and far more durable. I highly recommend checking out the Metatron channel on youtube, he's a native Italian who has made a number of excellent videos regarding the Romans.
th-cam.com/channels/IjGKyrdT4Gja0VLO40RlOw.html
What caused them to fall apart was a multitude of reasons that are still hotly debated, but... there's a huge difference between the Romans and the Mongols, or the Romans and the fascist regimes of the 20th century.
@Arkone I feel like you are cherry picking a quote from Augustus but are completely lacking any context, specifically when you take into account the amount that Rome expanded under Augustus's rule. Most of Rome's North African territory was acquired under Augustus, not to mention a large chunk of land in modern day Turkey.
Rome didn't "work" with their neighbors, rather it was the other way around. Rome's neighbors had no choice but to work with them due to their vast wealth, large military, and more sophisticated technology. If they did not work with Rome, they ended up being absorbed into the Roman empire.
At the end of the day, the biggest difference between the Romans and the Mongols, is that the Romans were more organized. They were able to build a culture and a strong civilization because of their emphasis on technology, infrastructure, and their own people. The Mongols just conquered with little regard for the people that lived in those territories and did very little to attempt to establish some kind of governance. The Romans' success wasn't predicated or caused by their ability to work with their neighbors.
Most historical experts list about 8-12 reasons why the Roman Empire ultimately fell. On every single one of these lists you will find that Rome expanded to much and that they were not able to keep up their military spending. I didn't say those were they sole reasons for the empire falling, but rather important contributing factors that fly in the face of your thesis.
Not surprised the Bajorans were so passive-aggressive, imo it was far too soon to begin being able to look at the Occupation from a dispassionate perspective.
Is it ever proven that Garek actually killed any Bajorans in the occupation? He was an intelligence operative but I can't remember it being claimed that he ever actually killed any Bajorans. He gets more death threats and assassination attempts from his own side. He wouldn't be allowed to exist on a Bajoran-filled station if it was proven he was involved in any atrocities or war crimes against Bajor.
I think he was once ordered to, but wasn't cold hearted enough to do it, so he let them go. He was then exiled to the merchant civilian population of Terok Nor, where he spent his days hemming dresses.
Kira does show hostility towards him, but not to any degree above average when it comes to Cardassians in general. She only really threatens him when it came to Zial, but even she had to admit their affection was genuine. The most most telling thing of all is that Garek actually protects Kira and defends her when they help Damar at the end of season 7. Both he and Kira grow to admire and respect Damar, a man who truly did redeem himself; unlike Dukat who drowned in his own pride and vanity.
Kira does soften on Cardassians in general after the fake Gul Darheel dies. That was the best episode of season 1, hands down
Other than the story about the Bajorans on the transport that may or may not have gotten him exiled, the most we know about his past activities is that he spent most of his time harassing, interrogating, and murdering other Cardassians. And possibly some Romulans in their own embassy.
Unlikely he did any interrogations there. He was only a simple gardener on Romulus.
Every single character in this scene is fascinating, multidimensional and keep you wishing to hear more from them, no need for lens flare and CGI, just talking. Well, maybe Dax not so much, but still. Odo, Garak, Sisko.. Whay can´t Discovery be like this, instead of being a super-Burnham solo show. Why.
I wish Elim Garak would make an appearance on Star Trek: Picard. To give "A Dispassionate Historical Perspective" on the Romulan Empire ...
"I'm disappointed in hearing you mouth the usual platitudes of peace and friendship regarding an implacable foe like the Romulans. But I live in hope that one day you'll come to see this universe for what it truly is, rather than what you wish it to be."
Elim Garak 'Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy'
@mazerrackham001 Odo thought that they were guilty of planting a bomb on the station that injured a bunch of people and killed at least a few others, he had no control over what Cardassian policy was in dealing with people found guilty of that sort of thing, only in finding out who it was and arresting them. Of course, his obsession with law and order affected his judgement and they were in fact innocent but he realized his mistake later on and was likely more careful as a result.
"What I would have liked was less posturing and more debate... it's clear to me now that the Bajoran's aren't really interested in discovering historical truth as much as they are in promoting the myths and legends of the glorious resistance."
Wow... how relevant that is to today's politics and the extremist left side.
Herbert Erdferkel you just vindicated my point in less than one sentence. For starts, I am neither left nor right, as both sides have aspects I like, and both have aspects I dislike. But I point fingers to extremist leftists as they base their whole position on smear campaigns and filling out misinformation, and rather than giving any practical argument- repeat the message of “Right people are racists/bigots/sexists/etc. so thank you for proving my point.
@Herbert Erdferkel I will not grant you the honor of a measured response.
Because all I hear is a self absorbed, grandiose piece of trash, sucking himself off all because I show distaste towards extremism on one side. You have nothing of value to say.
The right does it as well. Victim ideology and their own glorious resistance against those who would supposedly destroy Western civlization. Why would the billionaires that currently rule the world want to do so? None of them have that figured out yet, but it sure doesn't stop them from mythologizing the values of masculinity and the free market simply because they believe they're right. Just like how the liberal left attempts to create a boogeyman out of a supposed race regime and make their own "valiant resistance" against it.
It's all just a desire for heroism among these knights of the left and right. Only problem is, when they can't find dragons to slay, they make their own.
Jason, the point of this scene is that both sides have an obligation to listen to the other if they want to pursue truth. It's a condemnation of the extreme left and the extreme right.
Someone pointed out that you were being one-sided, and you ignored them and derided them. You're doing exactly what the Bajorans did and ignoring the opposition, not even dignifying them with a response. You have a lot of introspection to do if you think only one extreme is evil.
Plus, to claim that only the right believes in liberty is absolute nonsense.
And this is coming from the son of a proud Texan republican family.
@@holyknightthatpwns I'm glad you made this response. Because there's a significantly critical difference between you, and the other guy.
You presented your perspective in a rational, simple and hospitable manner. You at no point made assumptions about the other person with no basis to judge, nor are you tooting your own horn, and (to quote them) enjoying the carnival... or circus, whatever he said.
You're not acting all superior and immediately assuming me to be ignorant. And that one critical difference in how you present yourself is what determines the reaction of others. In this case- me. I don't feel the need to ignore your words as ignorant and self centered, because of the way you present yourself.
As to what you actually said, I have two things to say in rebuttal
1. I didn't say the right believes in liberty, however, that statement is NOT inaccurate. Many Republican/right ideals pride liberty and freedom, both corporate and individual. Just as the left does. But just as the left does, they also have views on what liberties shouldn't be considered or regulated for one reason or another.
2. As I specified before in my responses, I am not ignoring the scene's purpose or the fact that extremist right is just as bad as extremist left. Both sides are equally bad, just as Extremism always has and always will be bad.
However, I specifically point towards the left side, because in modern media, the extremist left has become so much more vocal than the extremist right, and are so hell bent on tearing down their opponents rather than seeking out truth. I understand that the scene is meant to show the flaws of both sides. However, I am explicitly quoting Gul Dukat's line, as to me that is the most relevant line in the scene, and am applying it with a modern issue. Does his line apply to the far right as well? of course it does.
But what do you hear more often on TV and twitter nowadays?
A. Immigrants are bad, we should deport them!
or
B. White man bad, Impeach the Orange man!
Both sides raise a good point
On the one hand, Garek raises a good point about looking at history impartially, on the other, it's also a good point that certain things shouldn't just be considered "differant" and are simply and objectively evil.
Brian brush There is a rule about studying history that says anything in the past fifty years isn’t history. It is news.