I responded to another video about this topic, by relating the story of a Canadian veteran who lived in my home town as a kid. I heard first-hand accounts from other people that he had been in the Normandy invasion at D-Day, and subsequent fighting in which he admitted he had personally shot German prisoners. He did not act alone. Not all Canadians shot prisoners, but an unknown number did and of course nobody will ever know the full story for obvious reasons. This was in revenge for the murder of Canadian prisoners by the SS. I'd heard about this from other sources. When I made the comment, the know-it-all who had the channel, basically told me "This never happened" and that the guy was basically lying about it. My response was "F---- You" because he was clearly adopting a heavily revisionist version of Canadian military history. Of course the Canadian military doesn't want this story to be known, but it's a fact ---- there were German prisoners who were taken out and shot in revenge ---- not just by Canadians, but also Americans and British and French Resistance. So please don't give me the "lily white innocent Canadians" version because that's just BS. It was a dirty, ugly war and it wasn't the clean and sanitized version some people imagine it to be.
My uncle was a Company Sargent Major in the Royal Winnipeg rifles in June/July 1944 and fought the 12ss at Carpiquet airfield. There were a number of incidents of Wermacht/ss POWs being shot after surrendering by Canadian soldiers, so much so that eventually senior NCOs were ordered to escort groups of POWs to the rear Provost Marshals (British & Commonwealth 'MPs') holding facilities in order to see to it that they all arrived alive. My Uncle was there, he told me about it and if you had seen in his eyes as I did, you would know the truth of this matter. It happened, on both sides, and the survivors lived with the guilt for the rest of their lives.
My father, a Luftwaffe conscript, later taken prisoner in the Falaise pocket, told me about the attrocitie carried out especially by Canadians and Poles even against wounded german soldiers He called them beeing no soldiers but cowboys..
You are correct that there were official orders on how to treat POWs and that there were a number of 12SS POWs taken. However, I know from talking to veterans of the 9th Brigade in the late 1970s that there was an unofficial understanding at regimental and brigade levels that there would be no repercussions for those that wanted take the option to NOT take any 12 SS as prisoner unless specifically asked to do so for questioning. The Australians were no different in Papua New Guinea and the Pacific after they found Digger POWs on the Kakoda Track crucified to trees with bayonets and with their testicles in their mouths. It is not for us to judge the actions of our fathers and grandfathers unless we have been standing in their boots.
Possibly. Eyewitness testimony is quite problematic. I don’t see any time when getting information from a POW would not be something the higher ups would want.
@@OTDMilitaryHistory Sure but as you say POW/eyewitness testimony could often be contradictory and you would have limited time to analyse the information. Throughout history the taking large numbers of POWs has been problematic logistically. So why not lighten the burden if you can. This may sound callous but it is militarily more practical.
@@OTDMilitaryHistory obviously from the sheer number of German POWs taken. However, throughout history, especially ancient history POWs were either taken as slaves and the injured "dispatched" or if an army was on campaign, sometimes, the POWs were asked to join the winning side. An entire regiment of Indian POWs fought for the Japanese in the Burma Campaign for a short time. During the Middle ages knights were taken specifically for ransom. The serfs were let go to flee and again the injured were "dispatched". We all too often let our 21st century morality get in the way and judge the historical actions of those that didn't share our morality and even our grandparents and great grandparents had different moral standards to those of us today.
@kevthecontrarian1614 Well this video focuses on the Canadians and 12th SS so the other examples don’t really matter. Also the evidence and morality of the time all point to not a lot of POWs getting killed after capture in this case.
My uncle was a D Day veteran of Sword Beach, he told me how on the boat going over they were warned of the dangers of taking prisoners. When a day or so later he captured a German he was told "We haven't got anywhere for them, you know what to do with him"...I'm Lowenna's father and my uncle George was with the Suffolk Regiment.
This event you relate, and many more like them, on the Allied side, were in no small part why the Malmedy trials fell apart. The Allies did not want to "go there," that is to say, all the Allied instances of shooting POWs becoming public during a well-publicized trial.
@@OTDMilitaryHistory Yeah, that's PARTLY why, as I said. It sure wasn't kindness of heart. High ranking officers, U.S. legislator weighed in, as well as some of the events surrounding the trial/prisoners. The issue of orders not to take prisoners on D-Day in some airborne units was brought up. The trial was a big deal at the time, covered extensively in print.
@ No you have the wrong information. The Malmedy trials never fell apart. The sentences were reduced due to Cold War politics well after the convictions. The Allied actions had nothing to do with these actions.
Canadian soldiers, sailors and airmen have always been hell on wheels in the fight. Once the fight is over, meaning the enemy has quit fighting the attitude of the average Canadian military member returned to some concern for the lives of those who surrendered. I'm sure there were incidents where enemy soldiers were not given the opportunity to surrender, that happens in war, but I'm just as sure these incidents were either the result of an operational requirement or isolated incidents committed by enraged individuals.
It’s part of all battlefield doctrine that you fight through your objective, as it’s common for your enemy to deny you ground by calling artillery onto their own positions. It is tacitly understood that when fighting through an objective that you don’t leave any enemy behind who would compromise your safety. It’s called “trench clearing” and it’s pure killing. However, once the battle is over, killing prisoners of war is just sociopathic savagery.
While the Taking no prisoners or execution issue will be debated for years, some information that is verified can be found below. The incidents have always been traced back to a couple situations. The first is the incident where the British Regiment 'Inns of Court' were implicated in the following. The Officers concerned were from the Panzer Lehr Division which was not an SS Division. The incident was reported to have happened on the morning of June 8th. This is how it was recorded at the trial of Bernard Siebken a Btln commander of the Hitler-Jugend Division who stood trial post war for the killing of 3 prisoners at his Btln HQ at Le Mesnil Patry on June 9th - it was the defence's assertion that the survivor of this incident managed to get back to Siebken's command post to relay what had happened and that the killing of the 3 Allied POWs would have been done in reprisal. (Other evidence points to this order having been given to Siebken by his Regimental Commander, Wilhelm Mohnke, what is not clear is whether he needed the excuse of this incident to carry out a reprisal): Count Clary-Aldrigen, formerly Regimental Adjutant in the 130th Armoured Artillery, Panzer-Lehr Division - was brought into the witness stand . This witness told the Court that on the morning of the 8 June 1944 he was taken prisoner by an armoured car patrol of the Inns of Court Regiment along with his Regimental Commander, Col. Luxenburger, one of the Btl Commanders, Major Hubert Zeissler and six other ranks. When the German officers refused to allow themselves to be used as a human shield for the British armoured cars during their drive back to the Allied side through the German lines, Col Luxenburger though seriously disabled (he had lost an arm in the Great war) was beaten unconscious by two British officers, and then bleeding all over, tied to one of the armoured cars. As the armoured cars moved off they opened fire on Count Clary, Major Zeissler*and the other German soldiers, killing them all, according to the witness, except Count Clary, who was shielded by the dead body of one of his comrades lying on top of him. While driving through the German lines from the rear, the armoured cars came under fire and the vehicle carrying Col. Luxenburger was hit by a German anti-tank gun. The Col. was wounded and died shortly afterwards. Count Clary, meanwhile regained consciousness and crawled in a severely wounded condition in the direction of the village of Le Mesnil-Patry where he was found...." {*from the divisional records , it appears that Zeissler also survived as he was recorded as alive some months later} The second item is as follows. “Colonel Meyer-Detring, who had been the intelligence chief on the staff of the German C-in-C on the Western Front, Field Marshal von Rundstedt, stated in the witness-stand that at the very beginning of the Allied landing he twice received documents through channels proving that the Canadian army did not intend to take any prisoners. ‘I specially remember the notes in the pocket-book of an officer killed in action’ Colonel Meyer-Detring told the Court ‘-I cannot know with certainty whether he was Canadian or British - containing an extract from some order concerning the invasion. In these notes I sound the sentence: ‘No prisoners are to be taken’ On the same question the next witness, Hubert Meyer, who had been chief operations officer on the divisional staff of the 12th SS Panzer Division, stated that on 7th June 1944 a notebook was found on a Canadian Captain containing notes on the pre-invasion briefing. ‘Apart from tactical instructions, ‘Hubert Meyer told the court ‘these notes also contained rules on the actual fighting. These rules stated: ‘Prisoner are not to be taken’. Meyer affirmed that he had personally seen this notebook and had handed it over to the Commander of the Seventh Army, Colonel-General Dollman, to be forwarded to a higher authority. He had also seen the minutes of the interrogation of other prisoners, officers and other ranks made during their interrogation by the divisional staff. ‘They confirmed the fact that they had received orders from their commanding officers not to take any prisoners,’ Meyer stated. ‘One of them stated they were not to take prisoners whenever these would be in their way. These violations of the rules of war mainly took place during the initial period’. The next witness was Lt-Col von Zastrow, who had been intelligence chief on the staff of General Lew Geyr von Schweppenburg, the Commander of Panzer Group West. (Evidence given of Germans being shot unlawfully)….von Zastrow also described his interrogation of a Canadian Captain who had been taken prisoner in the Somme region later in the campaign in France. As the captain had belonged to the same unit which had been found in possession of the incriminating orders immediately after the landing, and had been guilty of corresponding violations of the rules of war, he was charged with these offences under International law. To the question whether he had any knowledge of the shooting of German prisoners of war, this Captain had replied that he had heard that violations had taken place, but later on strict orders had been given threatening severe punishment for such actions. “ The Canadians were just as brutal as the HJ not only against the SS but any German units that oposed them. The famous Major Currie VC was guilty of a war crime when he shot a German officer who had surrendered during the battle of Falaise. He reasons, he was arrogant and had spat at my Sergeant Major. This was witnessed by many of his own men and the german prisoners. No charges were ever laid. This was not only limited to France. According to Mitch-am and Avon Hohenstaufen, the Canadian army unit "The Loyal Edmonton Regiment" murdered German prisoners of war during the invasion of Sicily. All armies are guilty of killing prisoners of war. However the Canadians may not be the the victims they appear to be, but may have been the instigators.
Despite what you claim none of this is "verified". Written in a book is not proof. Nor is the unsupported claims of someone at a trial. The Inns of Court "incident" is often used as a justification for all the SS murders in Normandy and yet it has never been proven. And no the word of one person is not proof. Same goes for the orders of Allied orders for "no prisoners" in Normandy. The order itself has never been shown anywhere in any form. You'd think one of them would survive the fighting if the order was so widespread and yet there is nothing. And no the word of Hubert Meyer is not enough here. He is well known for taking the word of fellow SS as gospel when that was clearly not the case. And how does the story of one unnamed interrogated Canadian POW prove anything? The Currie claim also has no proof despite you saying there are witnesses. Where can I read these witness statements? These Nazis feared for their lives and would do anything to save themselves. The SS were hardly reliable witnesses here unless you believe the other things they said were true.
@OTDMilitaryHistory @OTDMilitaryHistory that's great to hear. Taking that approach, all killing of prisoners by the Germans or any other country can now be listed as unverified. History has now been re written. 👍
@@OTDMilitaryHistory Every country in every war has cases of war crimes that have always been hidden, it is not possible to say that all of these stories are true, especially because at this point most of those involved have died. I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle, between the official version and the stories told. Deep down, if stories exist, there is some truth about them, especially when many insist on them.
@M1sc3 I’m never said that it never happened but there’s little to no evidence beyond hearsay. Isolated cases most likely. Many insist on these stories being true because they are neo Nazis or terrible people who want Nazis to look better. The conviction with which a position is held has no bearing on its truthfulness.
Atrocities happened on both sides. Period. What always stands in a war is the Roman expression:"Vae victis" meaning "woe the defeated". In other words: their version, their claims are of no importance so in the end the truth or what it is supposed to be is determined by the victor's side.
@@OTDMilitaryHistory I know. But history proves otherwise...Look at what happened at the eastern front, on both sides. Hard to say rules were important. Same with civilians: normally they should not be involved in military objectives. We all know that in reality this is BS, they are often the first to suffer
My Father collected Rent from an old German widow in Gateshead in the mid 1990s. She used to make him a cup of tea and a Sandwich, as it was around noon when he arrived. When he retired, he continued to visit her as a freind. She told him she fled the Russians in her Eastern part of Germany in Early 1945. She arrived in the West of Germany. At Wars end she was raped by 4 Canadian Soldeirs. She was 16 at the time.
@@OTDMilitaryHistory Allied soldiers - including Canadians - raped countless thousands of German women after Second World War. Sadly, the victorious Allies minimised the wrongs done by our side. Any historian should be doubly careful not to echo such post war lies.
I imagine that the horrors of war leads to atrocities on both sides . However , I cannot imagine the German SS command even caring about murdered Canadian POWs . Total war equals total inhumanity .
What higher echelon dictates and what soldiers in the field actually do are two entirely separate things. Obviously not every single member of the Hitler Jugend (in addition to many men in other SS divisions) who was captured was murdered, for that's what it was, but many were. I interviewed one U S veteran of the fighting in France and he told me that it was not at all uncommon for an officer, or even a sergeant, to tell the men accompanying captured Germans, "The pow collection point is about 35 or 40 minutes back down this road. I want you back in 15 minutes." Cheers!
I understand that but the evidence doesn't really support such attitudes and actions being the norm. There's lots of evidence of SS POWs being taken and sent back. There's lots of Interrogation reports and the higher ups would have been quite upset to lose this source of information as the SS usually usually sang like canaries when captured.
My dad born 1929 was taken to the 12 th in November 44 with his classmates. I don t know so much about the Story i only know from my grand grandmother that he came April 1945 back with a stolen motorbike. She said he cut his pants burned the uniform and waited between the cows until war is over. My Dad never was tall and he himselfe never spoke about it
I believe Monty was pretty keen on making sure prisoners were taken kept alive once captured. Mainly because he wanted to make sure discipline was maintained and soldiers wouldn't screw around and waste their time executing POWs instead of advancing and getting intelligence. Might some have not been allowed to surrender on occasion, sure possibly but we have a lot of photos of prisoners taken from the 12th SS that would suggest a lot of them were taken.
This is interesting. We have photographic evidence purporting to show these particular prisoners. I say 'purporting' because I have no reason to doubt the veracity of the images, but no conclusive reason to accept it either. One thing that does give me pause however is the circumstances under which these photographs were likely taken, and by whom. Obviously, they do not capture the immediacy of combat where surrendering is a hazardous decision. But they appear to be from closer to the line of contact than wherever you'd expect prisoners to be when they are properly processed - too many badly dressed Canadians around for that. So, an officially sanctioned photographer, turning up to get the expected candid shots, then disappearing to his next assignment. We can tell all sorts of stories but, as is generally the case, we'll never really know.
That’s why I included the documents. It’s not just the photos and footage. The brigade document says divisional troops would be there to process the POWs.
For the record, prisoners were allowed to keep their helmets until they were away from the battlefield. Since most of the SS in these photos were bareheaded, we can assume these are posed photos taken a safe distance away from the fighting. I suspect these SS had been marched to the rear but had not yet been processed.
There are numerous Waffen SS soldier interviews on Different Version of History's channel...for anyone seeking firsthand accounts (including 12th SS)..
1980s & 1990s as I recall. Here this 12th SS soldier says they found a Canadian diary "saying they WERE NOT taking prisoners" even though the Germans knew that went against their orders!: th-cam.com/video/PYMoUfgNWDA/w-d-xo.htmlsi=QfQQQahH5yP_IRtM
There is also an interview with Walter Hauck, a 12th SS commander on that channel... However his channel keeps getting banned so you may want to download...
I think the pro nazi views of the channel are why it keeps getting banned. These "interviews" are just somebody narrating words on a screen. No sources are given. That's not a good thing.
@OTDMilitaryHistory I have spoken to several old allied tankers, airmen, and a couple of infantry men from WW2 and have also watched many interviews on TV and the Internet. I am interested in your thought process that while these conversations, interviews, narations, and records are from people who were on the wining side, are also just someone narrating words with no sorces given. And when sources are given, you try and discredit them by saying they are pro nazi views or they would say anything as they were trying to save themselves. So the guys I refer to were on the winning side. How do they fit into your narrative? So, based on your logic, I guess the same can be said of your content on this channel.
You will be pleased to know very few died while trying to escape. As the video shows and veterans personal accounts relate how they surrendered quite succesfully. Even wounded members were well treated. During the Normandy campaign over 1,500 members of Hitlerjugend were taken prisoner.
Cheers Brad. 🌟 Corps and Div ISUMs should give a fairly accurate PW breakdown by unit. Bit patchy but maybe shows how they're not being bumped off on the way back up the chain.
It's a shame that war crimes against the german soldiers on the western front were so badly documented. That with the fact that the perpetrators walked away with impunity has led people so see an absolutely skewed view of the war
@@OTDMilitaryHistory can't even specify what they did, and even if you could you're to much of a coward to talk about why they did it in the first place
Specify who? The SS? Definitely not scared to talk about their crimes of murdering civilians and POWs, running the death camps, and helping to launch aggression against Europe.
Allegedly the Canadian troops (upon occupying Holland) allowed the SS POW’s in Holland to hold a court martial finding a SS soldier guilty then gave the SS POW’s loaded rifles to carry out an execution! My late father was on one of the shore parties in Asia sent in to free allied POW’s from Japanese POW camps The Japanese had only just surrendered and to avoid the odd Japanese soldier committing suicide they were told not to fix bayonets Upon entering the camp and seeing the POW’s the order was given “fix bayonets and let the little yellow bastards have a go” The camp and its POW’s were akin to what was seen at Auschwitz Later in Australia he met colleagues who were involved with camp 731 survivors which was more horrifying
@@OTDMilitaryHistory Not sure as it was many years ago, I am sure it was not the Seaforth Highlanders of Canada case as that took place in May 1945 when two Germans were handed to the German (camp) administration and latterly shot. When serving in Germany I had for many years a German girlfriend who’s father was in the SS at Stalingrad as a Obersturmbannführer who I met a few times in Berlin who told me a few stories regarding his service mainly how lucky he was to be invalided out of Stalingrad before the Russian offensive and his time in Finland I spoke to a few of his colleagues as well some served in Europe, sorry cannot remember more than I picked it up in Germany mid 70’s
As far as I recall there are photographs and even footage of the Canadian soldiers in captivity being marched off to that Normandy abbey for interrogation by the 12th SS, before they were murdered. The point is, photographs of prisoners tells you nothing of their subsequent treatment or fate. Same, though perhaps less so, for interrogation records. Shot while trying to escape springs to mind. I'm no apologist for the SS, but your attempt to minimise and explain away Canadian troops killing German prisoners is very weak. As regards the 'order', pretty difficult to police at squad level. Not all the bad guys are on one side and it's foolish to argue otherwise.
That’s why I included all the documents. Also you really think POWs are getting back to divisional level then interrogated and then subsequently murdered? Come on. Also you say my argument is weak and then you use assumptions instead of evidence. Interesting.
Given the 12th SS behavior towards POW and civilians including women children and babies it is shameful that any were taken prisoner, there is only one thing for a rabid dog
@@lemmdus2119 You sound like Poilievre and the Cons. The way they tell it, you'd think it was planned to honour a Nazi. In reality, it was hilarious example of how disorganized the government is. They didn't even know what he was. But that's not good enough for Poilievre's rage farming, so, like always, he makes things up to get people worked up. He's better at manipulating people than his hero, Trump, and he's got a lot of gullible people eating out of his hand as a result. God help us if he cons enough people that he gets power.
About 30 years a Canadian novelist named James Bacque created a bit of a bruhaha with a book he published a 'nonfiction ' work called "Other Losses" in which he claims that the Western Allied deliberated starved to death close to a million German POWs after the war, systematically and as a matter of policy. His evidence for this was some tables he misunderstood (most of his "losses" were discharges) and some anecdote concerning individual acts of retaliation against POWs. The book got mostly shredded - an entire conference was held on the topic - but Bacque and his far-left and far-right supporters continued for decades to argue that they were right, using the standard playbook that I'm seeing a lot of below: disparaging academic historians, accusing them of bias and a lack of objectivity, hauling out the old "my uncle Bob was there and he said" types of arguments (the equivalent of arguing that Aunt Betty ate bacon and smoked and lived to 107, therefore all these doctors are wrong). What they never did, in nearly four decades of trying, is anything remotely close to meeting the evidentiary standards of the historical profession. I'm seeing a lot of that below. Did Canadians sometimes kill prisoners? Of course. Did they do it systematically or on a large scale? I await evidence. Anecdote gathered decades later from uncle Bob who served in Normandy is pretty weak evidence.
My grand Dad surwived the ,, Rheinwiesenlager " western alliied POW Camp ; thats the actions followed the ,, total unconditioned surrender " conditions . At least he got send back to france for ,, De mining " work at the french coast.
I don't think anyone playing take the moral high ground over the actions of allied soldiers against German pows is in a position to criticise. The allied soldiers came face to face with the atrocities committed by German soldiers, Whermacht as well a SS. It's unsurprising that in that position and being in combat that not every German surrender was accepted. As the Germans did not abide by the Geneva Convention, the 'Commando Order' being a case in point, stop whinging about the refusal to every supposed surrender by German troops at this time.
The 'Commando order' was based on a German soldier prisoner being found dead with his hands tied during the Dieppe attack, which in itself violated the Geneva Convention. This affected Allied POWs at the time, & treatment of Allied Commandos later. Overall in combat zones, the Germans & Western Allies did try & follow the convention towards each other, but there would always be cases where it didn't, i.e like the SS execution of prisoners in France in 1940, or when German soldiers fought on (& killed Allied soldiers) until Allied soldiers came right up to their position, then surrendered, but were then shot by the Allied troops. American troops shot Germans & Italians in Sicily/Italy. Various Allied commanders before attacks went in (in both WW1 & 2) said 'no prisoners' to slow the attackers down, & were used in trials of Germans. Sometimes it was seen as an Operational necessity. There were times though, when both Western Allies & German troops stopped fighting to let people be buried, or wounded be treated.
@@eric-wb7gj No Germans were found dead there hands bound. It was an order found on Allied dead. It led to shackling of both Allied and German POWs by both sides.
Yes, I know they were built up around a cadre of experienced officers/nco’s from the 1st Ss. Thats not what the poster is saying, his implication is that the 12th rampaged through Russia prior to Normandy which of course is untrue.
@@OTDMilitaryHistory 1 company commited a massacre when it got attacked on its way to the frontline. Im not sure if we can call out a whole division of 20000 men for warcrimes committed by maybe 100 men.
Well, It is obvious that you are a prime example of a biased 'historian'. Only not a positive one. Every reference to the murder of German (WSS) POWs - also on a larger scale than just a few - by Canadian soldiers, made by people who have also spoken to veterans, you answer with 'possible' or 'eyewitness statements are problematic' or 'maybe you are making this all up'. With every comment you simply notice your reluctance or you simply do not answer anymore. You turn everything to your advantage or say that certain information is not relevant. Being patriotic is a good thing but at least be honest - you are far from it. And no, I am not an SS fanboy but I have taken the trouble (time, energy and money) to speak to all parties, besides visiting archives and the actual battlefields. In my case Germans, Americans and Belgian citizens. But since - in my case - it is not about the actions of the always innocent, heroic Canadian soldiers (to be clear, I am not saying that many Canadian soldiers weren't brave or good soldiers), you will probably not find this relevant either. I applaud the work you do but do not agree with your view on objective history.
I think you are chasing something that doesn’t exist. No one can be completely objective. And how is saying on a topic a bad thing? I’m not sure what discussing with civilians has anything to do with this. And yes people could be making all this up. This is an anonymous internet platform. I don’t know who anyone is and I can’t check any of this information. You shouldn’t take people on their word about second hand information. Just because someone says it, doesn’t make it true. Not sure why you think otherwise.
@@OTDMilitaryHistory I certainly didn't mean to offend/insult you, then my tone would be very different. If that is how it is understood, I apologize. Objectivity certainly exists, it is not an illusion. It is our duty to strive for this. In my opinion, again entirely my opinion, this is not present with you at all in this area. You can certainly have an opinion about, in this case a German division or an army unit in general, but then you also have to highlight the difficult episodes from the other side, the opponents. And that doesn't happen or it's downplayed. If someone tells you he talked with Canadian veterans who admitted that, in some cases, prisoners weren't taken, you reply that it might be fictional, an invention, simply because it fits your buble. Evidence or experiences of soldiers and civilians will certainly not convince you and I will not invest time or energy. But if you already indicate that (complete) objectivity does not exist or bias is the norm, then I wonder why you chose history. I am fully aware that we as 'historians' or researchers are looking for facts, but they also have to fit the complete picture. Anyway, anyone who thinks in a more nuanced way (in other words 'not denying anything') is portrayed as a 'fanboy'. That's certainly the norm these days and not popular. I wish you all the best!
@mikesmeets4418 I don’t automatically believe you because the internet is full of liars. And a bedrock of history is being able to see the sources for myself. I can’t do that with your claims now can I. And I completely disagree about bias you are seeking something that doesn’t exist.
@@OTDMilitaryHistory people, veterans, who experienced someting bad are - you might say - entitled to a degree of bias. We don't. Luckiy me then to know a few who are on the same level of research as I do. So, lets agree to completely disagree.
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I responded to another video about this topic, by relating the story of a Canadian veteran who lived in my home town as a kid. I heard first-hand accounts from other people that he had been in the Normandy invasion at D-Day, and subsequent fighting in which he admitted he had personally shot German prisoners. He did not act alone. Not all Canadians shot prisoners, but an unknown number did and of course nobody will ever know the full story for obvious reasons. This was in revenge for the murder of Canadian prisoners by the SS. I'd heard about this from other sources. When I made the comment, the know-it-all who had the channel, basically told me "This never happened" and that the guy was basically lying about it. My response was "F---- You" because he was clearly adopting a heavily revisionist version of Canadian military history. Of course the Canadian military doesn't want this story to be known, but it's a fact ---- there were German prisoners who were taken out and shot in revenge ---- not just by Canadians, but also Americans and British and French Resistance. So please don't give me the "lily white innocent Canadians" version because that's just BS. It was a dirty, ugly war and it wasn't the clean and sanitized version some people imagine it to be.
Well that was me. I said your claim isn’t supported by any evidence. You could be making all this up. I have no idea.
My uncle was a Company Sargent Major in the Royal Winnipeg rifles in June/July 1944 and fought the 12ss at Carpiquet airfield. There were a number of incidents of Wermacht/ss POWs being shot after surrendering by Canadian soldiers, so much so that eventually senior NCOs were ordered to escort groups of POWs to the rear Provost Marshals (British & Commonwealth 'MPs') holding facilities in order to see to it that they all arrived alive. My Uncle was there, he told me about it and if you had seen in his eyes as I did, you would know the truth of this matter. It happened, on both sides, and the survivors lived with the guilt for the rest of their lives.
My father, a Luftwaffe conscript, later taken prisoner in the Falaise pocket, told me about the attrocitie carried out especially by Canadians and Poles even against wounded german soldiers
He called them beeing no soldiers but cowboys..
@@albertawildcat3164 I didn’t deny that it happened. I clearly said it didn’t happen to all 12th SS POWs.
@@klabautermannb5784 😂 😂 😂
You are correct that there were official orders on how to treat POWs and that there were a number of 12SS POWs taken. However, I know from talking to veterans of the 9th Brigade in the late 1970s that there was an unofficial understanding at regimental and brigade levels that there would be no repercussions for those that wanted take the option to NOT take any 12 SS as prisoner unless specifically asked to do so for questioning.
The Australians were no different in Papua New Guinea and the Pacific after they found Digger POWs on the Kakoda Track crucified to trees with bayonets and with their testicles in their mouths.
It is not for us to judge the actions of our fathers and grandfathers unless we have been standing in their boots.
Possibly. Eyewitness testimony is quite problematic. I don’t see any time when getting information from a POW would not be something the higher ups would want.
@@OTDMilitaryHistory Sure but as you say POW/eyewitness testimony could often be contradictory and you would have limited time to analyse the information.
Throughout history the taking large numbers of POWs has been problematic logistically. So why not lighten the burden if you can. This may sound callous but it is militarily more practical.
@kevthecontrarian1614 Well this lightening the burden isn’t really something that happened. The evidence points to the contrary.
@@OTDMilitaryHistory obviously from the sheer number of German POWs taken. However, throughout history, especially ancient history POWs were either taken as slaves and the injured "dispatched" or if an army was on campaign, sometimes, the POWs were asked to join the winning side. An entire regiment of Indian POWs fought for the Japanese in the Burma Campaign for a short time.
During the Middle ages knights were taken specifically for ransom. The serfs were let go to flee and again the injured were "dispatched".
We all too often let our 21st century morality get in the way and judge the historical actions of those that didn't share our morality and even our grandparents and great grandparents had different moral standards to those of us today.
@kevthecontrarian1614 Well this video focuses on the Canadians and 12th SS so the other examples don’t really matter. Also the evidence and morality of the time all point to not a lot of POWs getting killed after capture in this case.
My uncle was a D Day veteran of Sword Beach, he told me how on the boat going over they were warned of the dangers of taking prisoners. When a day or so later he captured a German he was told "We haven't got anywhere for them, you know what to do with him"...I'm Lowenna's father and my uncle George was with the Suffolk Regiment.
That may be true but the D-Day orders would not have applied to the 12th SS as they were really there yet.
This event you relate, and many more like them, on the Allied side, were in no small part why the Malmedy trials fell apart. The Allies did not want to "go there," that is to say, all the Allied instances of shooting POWs becoming public during a well-publicized trial.
Yeah that’s not why
@@OTDMilitaryHistory Yeah, that's PARTLY why, as I said. It sure wasn't kindness of heart. High ranking officers, U.S. legislator weighed in, as well as some of the events surrounding the trial/prisoners. The issue of orders not to take prisoners on D-Day in some airborne units was brought up. The trial was a big deal at the time, covered extensively in print.
@ No you have the wrong information. The Malmedy trials never fell apart. The sentences were reduced due to Cold War politics well after the convictions. The Allied actions had nothing to do with these actions.
Canadian soldiers, sailors and airmen have always been hell on wheels in the fight. Once the fight is over, meaning the enemy has quit fighting the attitude of the average Canadian military member returned to some concern for the lives of those who surrendered. I'm sure there were incidents where enemy soldiers were not given the opportunity to surrender, that happens in war, but I'm just as sure these incidents were either the result of an operational requirement or isolated incidents committed by enraged individuals.
It’s part of all battlefield doctrine that you fight through your objective, as it’s common for your enemy to deny you ground by calling artillery onto their own positions. It is tacitly understood that when fighting through an objective that you don’t leave any enemy behind who would compromise your safety. It’s called “trench clearing” and it’s pure killing. However, once the battle is over, killing prisoners of war is just sociopathic savagery.
How do we know that they weren’t executed after the photos were taken.
I take it you didn’t watch the whole video
@@OTDMilitaryHistorydoes not make any difference...after means after...there any proof these guys survived the war?... I think not
@@raymondjarvis765 So what’s the point of commenting without watching the video then?
Used to work for a 12th SS guy who was taken prisoner by the Canadians.I think he was 17 at the time.
There's a difference between executing prisoners after the event and not taking many prisoners in the first place.
There is indeed.
While the Taking no prisoners or execution issue will be debated for years, some information that is verified can be found below.
The incidents have always been traced back to a couple situations.
The first is the incident where the British Regiment 'Inns of Court' were implicated in the following.
The Officers concerned were from the Panzer Lehr Division which was not an SS Division. The incident was reported to have happened on the morning of June 8th. This is how it was recorded at the trial of Bernard Siebken a Btln commander of the Hitler-Jugend Division who stood trial post war for the killing of 3 prisoners at his Btln HQ at Le Mesnil Patry on June 9th - it was the defence's assertion that the survivor of this incident managed to get back to Siebken's command post to relay what had happened and that the killing of the 3 Allied POWs would have been done in reprisal. (Other evidence points to this order having been given to Siebken by his Regimental Commander, Wilhelm Mohnke, what is not clear is whether he needed the excuse of this incident to carry out a reprisal):
Count Clary-Aldrigen, formerly Regimental Adjutant in the 130th Armoured Artillery, Panzer-Lehr Division - was brought into the witness stand . This witness told the Court that on the morning of the 8 June 1944 he was taken prisoner by an armoured car patrol of the Inns of Court Regiment along with his Regimental Commander, Col. Luxenburger, one of the Btl Commanders, Major Hubert Zeissler and six other ranks. When the German officers refused to allow themselves to be used as a human shield for the British armoured cars during their drive back to the Allied side through the German lines, Col Luxenburger though seriously disabled (he had lost an arm in the Great war) was beaten unconscious by two British officers, and then bleeding all over, tied to one of the armoured cars. As the armoured cars moved off they opened fire on Count Clary, Major Zeissler*and the other German soldiers, killing them all, according to the witness, except Count Clary, who was shielded by the dead body of one of his comrades lying on top of him. While driving through the German lines from the rear, the armoured cars came under fire and the vehicle carrying Col. Luxenburger was hit by a German anti-tank gun. The Col. was wounded and died shortly afterwards. Count Clary, meanwhile regained consciousness and crawled in a severely wounded condition in the direction of the village of Le Mesnil-Patry where he was found...." {*from the divisional records , it appears that Zeissler also survived as he was recorded as alive some months later}
The second item is as follows.
“Colonel Meyer-Detring, who had been the intelligence chief on the staff of the German C-in-C on the Western Front, Field Marshal von Rundstedt, stated in the witness-stand that at the very beginning of the Allied landing he twice received documents through channels proving that the Canadian army did not intend to take any prisoners. ‘I specially remember the notes in the pocket-book of an officer killed in action’ Colonel Meyer-Detring told the Court ‘-I cannot know with certainty whether he was Canadian or British - containing an extract from some order concerning the invasion. In these notes I sound the sentence: ‘No prisoners are to be taken’
On the same question the next witness, Hubert Meyer, who had been chief operations officer on the divisional staff of the 12th SS Panzer Division, stated that on 7th June 1944 a notebook was found on a Canadian Captain containing notes on the pre-invasion briefing. ‘Apart from tactical instructions, ‘Hubert Meyer told the court ‘these notes also contained rules on the actual fighting. These rules stated: ‘Prisoner are not to be taken’. Meyer affirmed that he had personally seen this notebook and had handed it over to the Commander of the Seventh Army, Colonel-General Dollman, to be forwarded to a higher authority. He had also seen the minutes of the interrogation of other prisoners, officers and other ranks made during their interrogation by the divisional staff. ‘They confirmed the fact that they had received orders from their commanding officers not to take any prisoners,’ Meyer stated. ‘One of them stated they were not to take prisoners whenever these would be in their way. These violations of the rules of war mainly took place during the initial period’.
The next witness was Lt-Col von Zastrow, who had been intelligence chief on the staff of General Lew Geyr von Schweppenburg, the Commander of Panzer Group West. (Evidence given of Germans being shot unlawfully)….von Zastrow also described his interrogation of a Canadian Captain who had been taken prisoner in the Somme region later in the campaign in France. As the captain had belonged to the same unit which had been found in possession of the incriminating orders immediately after the landing, and had been guilty of corresponding violations of the rules of war, he was charged with these offences under International law. To the question whether he had any knowledge of the shooting of German prisoners of war, this Captain had replied that he had heard that violations had taken place, but later on strict orders had been given threatening severe punishment for such actions. “
The Canadians were just as brutal as the HJ not only against the SS but any German units that oposed them.
The famous Major Currie VC was guilty of a war crime when he shot a German officer who had surrendered during the battle of Falaise. He reasons, he was arrogant and had spat at my Sergeant Major. This was witnessed by many of his own men and the german prisoners. No charges were ever laid.
This was not only limited to France.
According to Mitch-am and Avon Hohenstaufen, the Canadian army unit "The Loyal Edmonton Regiment" murdered German prisoners of war during the invasion of Sicily.
All armies are guilty of killing prisoners of war.
However the Canadians may not be the the victims they appear to be, but may have been the instigators.
Despite what you claim none of this is "verified". Written in a book is not proof. Nor is the unsupported claims of someone at a trial.
The Inns of Court "incident" is often used as a justification for all the SS murders in Normandy and yet it has never been proven. And no the word of one person is not proof.
Same goes for the orders of Allied orders for "no prisoners" in Normandy. The order itself has never been shown anywhere in any form. You'd think one of them would survive the fighting if the order was so widespread and yet there is nothing.
And no the word of Hubert Meyer is not enough here. He is well known for taking the word of fellow SS as gospel when that was clearly not the case. And how does the story of one unnamed interrogated Canadian POW prove anything?
The Currie claim also has no proof despite you saying there are witnesses. Where can I read these witness statements?
These Nazis feared for their lives and would do anything to save themselves. The SS were hardly reliable witnesses here unless you believe the other things they said were true.
@OTDMilitaryHistory @OTDMilitaryHistory that's great to hear. Taking that approach, all killing of prisoners by the Germans or any other country can now be listed as unverified.
History has now been re written.
👍
@@OTDMilitaryHistory Every country in every war has cases of war crimes that have always been hidden, it is not possible to say that all of these stories are true, especially because at this point most of those involved have died.
I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle, between the official version and the stories told. Deep down, if stories exist, there is some truth about them, especially when many insist on them.
@M1sc3 I’m never said that it never happened but there’s little to no evidence beyond hearsay. Isolated cases most likely.
Many insist on these stories being true because they are neo Nazis or terrible people who want Nazis to look better. The conviction with which a position is held has no bearing on its truthfulness.
Atrocities happened on both sides. Period. What always stands in a war is the Roman expression:"Vae victis" meaning "woe the defeated". In other words: their version, their claims are of no importance so in the end the truth or what it is supposed to be is determined by the victor's side.
Well lots of people disagree with that principle seeing they set up a bunch of rules for protections of POWs.
@@OTDMilitaryHistory I know. But history proves otherwise...Look at what happened at the eastern front, on both sides. Hard to say rules were important. Same with civilians: normally they should not be involved in military objectives. We all know that in reality this is BS, they are often the first to suffer
@janverbanck Well things were slightly different in the west. I’ll saying is that it’s not so simple that one concept can fit the entire war.
I know firsthand from a Canadian vet, in many cases the 12SS didn’t give up and they had to unalive every last one 🤷🏻
Yes many of them fought to the death
My Father collected Rent from an old German widow in Gateshead in the mid 1990s. She used to make him a cup of tea and a Sandwich, as it was around noon when he arrived. When he retired, he continued to visit her as a freind. She told him she fled the Russians in her Eastern part of Germany in Early 1945. She arrived in the West of Germany. At Wars end she was raped by 4 Canadian Soldeirs. She was 16 at the time.
Where did this happen?
@@OTDMilitaryHistory Allied soldiers - including Canadians - raped countless thousands of German women after Second World War. Sadly, the victorious Allies minimised the wrongs done by our side. Any historian should be doubly careful not to echo such post war lies.
I don't believe it
I imagine that the horrors of war leads to atrocities on both sides . However , I cannot imagine the German SS command even caring about murdered Canadian POWs . Total war equals total inhumanity .
Not only did they not care but actually encouraged the killing of POWs.
What higher echelon dictates and what soldiers in the field actually do are two entirely separate things. Obviously not every single member of the Hitler Jugend (in addition to many men in other SS divisions) who was captured was murdered, for that's what it was, but many were. I interviewed one U S veteran of the fighting in France and he told me that it was not at all uncommon for an officer, or even a sergeant, to tell the men accompanying captured Germans, "The pow collection point is about 35 or 40 minutes back down this road. I want you back in 15 minutes." Cheers!
I understand that but the evidence doesn't really support such attitudes and actions being the norm. There's lots of evidence of SS POWs being taken and sent back. There's lots of Interrogation reports and the higher ups would have been quite upset to lose this source of information as the SS usually usually sang like canaries when captured.
A brave man shows compassion for prisoners and wounded enemies.
The 12th SS sure didn’t
My dad born 1929 was taken to the 12 th in November 44 with his classmates. I don t know so much about the Story i only know from my grand grandmother that he came April 1945 back with a stolen motorbike. She said he cut his pants burned the uniform and waited between the cows until war is over. My Dad never was tall and he himselfe never spoke about it
A good call to run from that division. They were destroyed shortly after November 1944 at the Battle of the Bulge.
POWs are important intelligence assets and if they were not being taken in the field, there would be questions from above.
I believe Monty was pretty keen on making sure prisoners were taken kept alive once captured. Mainly because he wanted to make sure discipline was maintained and soldiers wouldn't screw around and waste their time executing POWs instead of advancing and getting intelligence. Might some have not been allowed to surrender on occasion, sure possibly but we have a lot of photos of prisoners taken from the 12th SS that would suggest a lot of them were taken.
THOSE FEW 12TH SS PRISONERS SHOWN IN THIS VIDEO WERE A VERY LUCKY FEW! ALOT OF 12TH SS WERE NOT AS LUCKY IM AFRAID!! DONT ASK ME HOW I KNOW!!
@@PLATOON-609 How do you know.???
@@PLATOON-609 WHAT? I CAN’T HEAR YOU. SPEAK UP!
Trust me I wont.
I won’t ask you how you know. You are obviously a big knob.
This is interesting. We have photographic evidence purporting to show these particular prisoners. I say 'purporting' because I have no reason to doubt the veracity of the images, but no conclusive reason to accept it either. One thing that does give me pause however is the circumstances under which these photographs were likely taken, and by whom. Obviously, they do not capture the immediacy of combat where surrendering is a hazardous decision. But they appear to be from closer to the line of contact than wherever you'd expect prisoners to be when they are properly processed - too many badly dressed Canadians around for that. So, an officially sanctioned photographer, turning up to get the expected candid shots, then disappearing to his next assignment. We can tell all sorts of stories but, as is generally the case, we'll never really know.
That’s why I included the documents. It’s not just the photos and footage. The brigade document says divisional troops would be there to process the POWs.
For the record, prisoners were allowed to keep their helmets until they were away from the battlefield. Since most of the SS in these photos were bareheaded, we can assume these are posed photos taken a safe distance away from the fighting. I suspect these SS had been marched to the rear but had not yet been processed.
There are numerous Waffen SS soldier interviews on Different Version of History's channel...for anyone seeking firsthand accounts (including 12th SS)..
When are the interviews from?
1980s & 1990s as I recall. Here this 12th SS soldier says they found a Canadian diary "saying they WERE NOT taking prisoners" even though the Germans knew that went against their orders!:
th-cam.com/video/PYMoUfgNWDA/w-d-xo.htmlsi=QfQQQahH5yP_IRtM
There is also an interview with Walter Hauck, a 12th SS commander on that channel... However his channel keeps getting banned so you may want to download...
I think the pro nazi views of the channel are why it keeps getting banned. These "interviews" are just somebody narrating words on a screen. No sources are given. That's not a good thing.
@OTDMilitaryHistory I have spoken to several old allied tankers, airmen, and a couple of infantry men from WW2 and have also watched many interviews on TV and the Internet.
I am interested in your thought process that while these conversations, interviews, narations, and records are from people who were on the wining side, are also just someone narrating words with no sorces given.
And when sources are given, you try and discredit them by saying they are pro nazi views or they would say anything as they were trying to save themselves.
So the guys I refer to were on the winning side. How do they fit into your narrative?
So, based on your logic, I guess the same can be said of your content on this channel.
I would like to know how many actually made it to a prison camp....many must have died while "trying to escape "
@@raymondjarvis765 Must have died based on what evidence exactly?
You will be pleased to know very few died while trying to escape.
As the video shows and veterans personal accounts relate how they surrendered quite succesfully. Even wounded members were well treated.
During the Normandy campaign over 1,500 members of Hitlerjugend were taken prisoner.
@@frankvandergoes298nope not according to my grandfather who fought at ortona...I'm also ex ssf so I know the soldiers mentality in these issues
@@raymondjarvis765 Which Waffen SS units fought at Ortona??.
None that I,m aware of.
Cheers Brad. 🌟
Corps and Div ISUMs should give a fairly accurate PW breakdown by unit. Bit patchy but maybe shows how they're not being bumped off on the way back up the chain.
Indeed. I would have included that but I needed to keep the video short or it wouldn’t have been watched.
"The Eth Infantry Brigade," eh? (from closed caption, 1:21)
They were all eh brigades lol
It's a shame that war crimes against the german soldiers on the western front were so badly documented.
That with the fact that the perpetrators walked away with impunity has led people so see an absolutely skewed view of the war
Says someone who thinks the SS were justified in doing what they did.
@@OTDMilitaryHistory can't even specify what they did, and even if you could you're to much of a coward to talk about why they did it in the first place
Specify who? The SS?
Definitely not scared to talk about their crimes of murdering civilians and POWs, running the death camps, and helping to launch aggression against Europe.
You mentioned overseas camps
Some interesting reading Robin Warren Stotz
Jean-Michel Turcotte
Very cool! I do want to learn more about the POW camps in North America.
@@OTDMilitaryHistory Glad you like
Good analysis Brad
Thanks. This video will ruffle feathers of lots of people but what else is new for me.
Allegedly the Canadian troops (upon occupying Holland) allowed the SS POW’s in Holland to hold a court martial finding a SS soldier guilty then gave the SS POW’s loaded rifles to carry out an execution!
My late father was on one of the shore parties in Asia sent in to free allied POW’s from Japanese POW camps
The Japanese had only just surrendered and to avoid the odd Japanese soldier committing suicide they were told not to fix bayonets
Upon entering the camp and seeing the POW’s the order was given “fix bayonets and let the little yellow bastards have a go”
The camp and its POW’s were akin to what was seen at Auschwitz
Later in Australia he met colleagues who were involved with camp 731 survivors which was more horrifying
Was this postwar?
@@OTDMilitaryHistory apparently not
It was upon surrender and capture of German forces in that area - the war was still ongoing
Do you remember where you heard this from?
@@OTDMilitaryHistory Not sure as it was many years ago, I am sure it was not the Seaforth Highlanders of Canada case as that took place in May 1945 when two Germans were handed to the German (camp) administration and latterly shot.
When serving in Germany I had for many years a German girlfriend who’s father was in the SS at Stalingrad as a Obersturmbannführer who I met a few times in Berlin who told me a few stories regarding his service mainly how lucky he was to be invalided out of Stalingrad before the Russian offensive and his time in Finland
I spoke to a few of his colleagues as well some served in Europe, sorry cannot remember more than I picked it up in Germany mid 70’s
Nobody survived Unit 731. The Japanese made sure of that.
As far as I recall there are photographs and even footage of the Canadian soldiers in captivity being marched off to that Normandy abbey for interrogation by the 12th SS, before they were murdered. The point is, photographs of prisoners tells you nothing of their subsequent treatment or fate. Same, though perhaps less so, for interrogation records. Shot while trying to escape springs to mind. I'm no apologist for the SS, but your attempt to minimise and explain away Canadian troops killing German prisoners is very weak. As regards the 'order', pretty difficult to police at squad level. Not all the bad guys are on one side and it's foolish to argue otherwise.
That’s why I included all the documents. Also you really think POWs are getting back to divisional level then interrogated and then subsequently murdered? Come on.
Also you say my argument is weak and then you use assumptions instead of evidence. Interesting.
How do we know those SS prisoners were not shot right after the photos?
Did you watch the whole video?
Boys dying for rich old men
Be civil and respectful be civil and respectful be civil and respectful
About the 12th SS?
The victorious vanquish the defeated and write the history
@trumanbentley9491 Lots of SS members write memoirs including Kurt Meyer who commanded the division and was convicted of war crimes.
@@OTDMilitaryHistory the only war crime that ever existed actually two The South losing the American civil war and Germany losing WW2
This is a totally normal and mentally stable thing to say.
Given the 12th SS behavior towards POW and civilians including women children and babies it is shameful that any were taken prisoner, there is only one thing for a rabid dog
Merda
There behaviour towards women. children and babies???, please let us know.
Well now the Canadian Parliament applauds former SS soldiers…the old guy from Ukrainian, yeah he was SS.
...okay, but that was a massive f***-up. They wouldn't have applauded him if they'd known who he served with, obviously.
Are you not embarrassed to be making such a complete fool of yourself in public??
@@lemmdus2119 You sound like Poilievre and the Cons. The way they tell it, you'd think it was planned to honour a Nazi. In reality, it was hilarious example of how disorganized the government is. They didn't even know what he was. But that's not good enough for Poilievre's rage farming, so, like always, he makes things up to get people worked up. He's better at manipulating people than his hero, Trump, and he's got a lot of gullible people eating out of his hand as a result. God help us if he cons enough people that he gets power.
@@grahambroad4354 Keep on smoking hopium, you'll enjoy the ride.
About 30 years a Canadian novelist named James Bacque created a bit of a bruhaha with a book he published a 'nonfiction ' work called "Other Losses" in which he claims that the Western Allied deliberated starved to death close to a million German POWs after the war, systematically and as a matter of policy. His evidence for this was some tables he misunderstood (most of his "losses" were discharges) and some anecdote concerning individual acts of retaliation against POWs. The book got mostly shredded - an entire conference was held on the topic - but Bacque and his far-left and far-right supporters continued for decades to argue that they were right, using the standard playbook that I'm seeing a lot of below: disparaging academic historians, accusing them of bias and a lack of objectivity, hauling out the old "my uncle Bob was there and he said" types of arguments (the equivalent of arguing that Aunt Betty ate bacon and smoked and lived to 107, therefore all these doctors are wrong). What they never did, in nearly four decades of trying, is anything remotely close to meeting the evidentiary standards of the historical profession. I'm seeing a lot of that below. Did Canadians sometimes kill prisoners? Of course. Did they do it systematically or on a large scale? I await evidence. Anecdote gathered decades later from uncle Bob who served in Normandy is pretty weak evidence.
Thank you for saying all this. I keep repeating myself with these exact things and people simply won't listen.
My grand Dad surwived the ,, Rheinwiesenlager " western alliied POW Camp ; thats the actions followed the ,, total unconditioned surrender " conditions . At least he got send back to france for ,, De mining " work at the french coast.
I don't think anyone playing take the moral high ground over the actions of allied soldiers against German pows is in a position to criticise. The allied soldiers came face to face with the atrocities committed by German soldiers, Whermacht as well a SS. It's unsurprising that in that position and being in combat that not every German surrender was accepted. As the Germans did not abide by the Geneva Convention, the 'Commando Order' being a case in point, stop whinging about the refusal to every supposed surrender by German troops at this time.
I’m not whining. You didn’t watch the whole video did you?
@@OTDMilitaryHistory my comment wasn't aimed at you.
Ok good to know
The 'Commando order' was based on a German soldier prisoner being found dead with his hands tied during the Dieppe attack, which in itself violated the Geneva Convention. This affected Allied POWs at the time, & treatment of Allied Commandos later. Overall in combat zones, the Germans & Western Allies did try & follow the convention towards each other, but there would always be cases where it didn't, i.e like the SS execution of prisoners in France in 1940, or when German soldiers fought on (& killed Allied soldiers) until Allied soldiers came right up to their position, then surrendered, but were then shot by the Allied troops. American troops shot Germans & Italians in Sicily/Italy.
Various Allied commanders before attacks went in (in both WW1 & 2) said 'no prisoners' to slow the attackers down, & were used in trials of Germans. Sometimes it was seen as an Operational necessity.
There were times though, when both Western Allies & German troops stopped fighting to let people be buried, or wounded be treated.
@@eric-wb7gj No Germans were found dead there hands bound. It was an order found on Allied dead. It led to shackling of both Allied and German POWs by both sides.
So what? War is murder. We just try to contain the horror for the lawyers and politicians afterall…
@@BrianBrooks-r8v I’m not sure how to respond to that
@@OTDMilitaryHistoryI understand the discomfort.
It was more about the politician and lawyer reference.
Should have taken no 12th ss prisoners. They left a trail of war crimes accross France, and before that in Russia.
Normandy was the 12th ss divisions first combat experience so not sure how they ended up fighting in Russia first..
Many officers and NCOs came from the 1st SS and fought in the Soviet Union.
Yes, I know they were built up around a cadre of experienced officers/nco’s from the 1st Ss. Thats not what the poster is saying, his implication is that the 12th rampaged through Russia prior to Normandy which of course is untrue.
They did kill civilians before the fighting in Normandy though
@@OTDMilitaryHistory 1 company commited a massacre when it got attacked on its way to the frontline. Im not sure if we can call out a whole division of 20000 men for warcrimes committed by maybe 100 men.
Most Allied soldiers took Wehrmacht soldiers prisoners. When it came to SS soldiers….not so much.
That's not true though. Lots of SS surrendered and were taken prisoner.
@@OTDMilitaryHistory I didn’t say we didn’t take any, I was saying we didn’t take as many as the normal army.
@lemmdus2119 Do you have evidence for that?
Canadians! Should have taken no 12th ss prisoners. Oradu-surGla
Oradour-sur-Glane was the 2nd SS.
@@OTDMilitaryHistory Tourouvre just commemorated the 80th anniversary of the HJ's "visit" last Tuesday
Well that was the 2nd Das Reich but the same breed of criminals.
.... dont forget to mention the french ,, marquise " resistance actions in this ,, petite russie " areas of france !
More revisionist history.
How so? I don’t think it’s a crazy thing to say the Canadians didn’t kill 12th SS POWs they took.
Well, It is obvious that you are a prime example of a biased 'historian'. Only not a positive one. Every reference to the murder of German (WSS) POWs - also on a larger scale than just a few - by Canadian soldiers, made by people who have also spoken to veterans, you answer with 'possible' or 'eyewitness statements are problematic' or 'maybe you are making this all up'. With every comment you simply notice your reluctance or you simply do not answer anymore. You turn everything to your advantage or say that certain information is not relevant. Being patriotic is a good thing but at least be honest - you are far from it. And no, I am not an SS fanboy but I have taken the trouble (time, energy and money) to speak to all parties, besides visiting archives and the actual battlefields. In my case Germans, Americans and Belgian citizens. But since - in my case - it is not about the actions of the always innocent, heroic Canadian soldiers (to be clear, I am not saying that many Canadian soldiers weren't brave or good soldiers), you will probably not find this relevant either. I applaud the work you do but do not agree with your view on objective history.
I think you are chasing something that doesn’t exist. No one can be completely objective. And how is saying on a topic a bad thing? I’m not sure what discussing with civilians has anything to do with this.
And yes people could be making all this up. This is an anonymous internet platform. I don’t know who anyone is and I can’t check any of this information. You shouldn’t take people on their word about second hand information. Just because someone says it, doesn’t make it true. Not sure why you think otherwise.
And if you think insulting me will change my mind, you need to work on your people skills.
@@OTDMilitaryHistory I certainly didn't mean to offend/insult you, then my tone would be very different. If that is how it is understood, I apologize. Objectivity certainly exists, it is not an illusion. It is our duty to strive for this. In my opinion, again entirely my opinion, this is not present with you at all in this area. You can certainly have an opinion about, in this case a German division or an army unit in general, but then you also have to highlight the difficult episodes from the other side, the opponents. And that doesn't happen or it's downplayed. If someone tells you he talked with Canadian veterans who admitted that, in some cases, prisoners weren't taken, you reply that it might be fictional, an invention, simply because it fits your buble. Evidence or experiences of soldiers and civilians will certainly not convince you and I will not invest time or energy. But if you already indicate that (complete) objectivity does not exist or bias is the norm, then I wonder why you chose history. I am fully aware that we as 'historians' or researchers are looking for facts, but they also have to fit the complete picture. Anyway, anyone who thinks in a more nuanced way (in other words 'not denying anything') is portrayed as a 'fanboy'. That's certainly the norm these days and not popular. I wish you all the best!
@mikesmeets4418 I don’t automatically believe you because the internet is full of liars. And a bedrock of history is being able to see the sources for myself. I can’t do that with your claims now can I.
And I completely disagree about bias you are seeking something that doesn’t exist.
@@OTDMilitaryHistory people, veterans, who experienced someting bad are - you might say - entitled to a degree of bias. We don't. Luckiy me then to know a few who are on the same level of research as I do. So, lets agree to completely disagree.