i've been thinking for a while that "heavy" primary weapons like the ogris, opticor, etc do extremely underwhelming damage for what they are it feels so bad to spend so long firing a rocket launcher at level 100 enemies when i could whip out any melee and kill them much quicker
Fair point about heavy primaries. I’ve been maining Fulmin for quite some time, but since StPath came out, my new 54% Heat Kuva Nukor w CC+CD riven buffed by Crit-Cat, 300% dmg buff Arcane precision and the pistol fire rate arcane now comes on the top, even above the Crit zaw dokrham riven build. So.. it depends how u mod them. The rest of melee compared to critzaw seem underwhelming or slow.
The talk around 50:00 minutes about "If you don't have this specific thing or haven't done this before, get out", just reminds me of D1 raids, where it was "No Gjallarhorn = kicked"
Yes god forbid people farming want efficiency. There is a time and a place for standards. Gear checks is for endgame content in several games is one. I dont know why people get upset. I've been denied until I got better in other games. Would you grind scarlet spear with mesa that couldn't use her 4 well(for the railjack side) for heavy grinding I doubt it because it will double your playtime. People need to learn to get over rejection.
I really like using primaries/secondaries. Actually aiming and headshotting someone is satisfying in itself. If they removed melee headshots and ramped up the headshot multiplier to be 10x stronger (example, pick an appropriate number) there would be a reason to aim and use guns.
I also prefer pure gun and mixed gun/melee combat over pure melee combat. Spamming E with one of my various broken unga sticks of choice just isn't compelling enough for me, even though it's the best strategy.
Warframe balances the game like there's a pvp mode for them to break lol Also yea melee is just objectively the best but consistently you see DE nerf primaries and secondaries that dare enter that realm of damage lol
@@hedgeyes6411 how many primary weapons without rivens are good in the later half of steel path? 10? 15? Out of the literal 200+ we have? Let's back track from steel path. I would say a good 66% of the primary weapons in the game are MR fodder. Explain why that's okay in a game that clearly prides itself on build diversity and customization
@@alextheloud It's not. Those 10-15 are out of line and should be gutted. I want to play Vermintide or Killing Floor except I can do quadruple aerial backflips and punch people in half. I can't do that because there are no enemies for me to punch in half because they instantly die before I can even have the punch connect. Ergo, nerf the weapons and abilities that make them die too fast. Other people want to basically let the game play itself and are allergic to the concept of effort. These people get very mad at the very suggestion of having to look at the screen while they play and want everything buffed so that they can go back to not playing the game and have 100% of all content be functionally identical. These two groups can't coexist. I explicitly want the people who play Warframe for "the power fantasy" to stop playing Warframe. I want their """fun""" actively removed from the game. It's garbage and I hate it.
Warning Sign: "I can use them for a change of pace." Vazarin was a "change of pace" - Now everyone can heal objectives significantly better by throwing out an Ancient Healer specter. Xoris was a "change of pace" - We saw what happened there. Liches were a "change of pace" - I hated them at launch, and now they're just used to get weapons for MR. Railjack was a "change of pace" - I liked it at launch but it was unreliable.
Vazarin is actually a legit choice you gotta make and xoris release was a fix to a bug they themselves introduced 2 mainline patches ago when exalted melee no longer counts as melee for some fucking reason when it comes to combo counter (and then nerf because muh riven plat mafia).
Also on the Eidolon / Tridolon Runs, since they are so heavily time-gated, no one wants to bother to take new players with them, because it's inefficient and will cost you literally an hour of your time. Like in order to get into Eidolon / Tridolon Runs, you need to either have a friend who bares with you until you have the more bearable amp OR you grind the first Eidolon over and over until you can get better AMP all by yourself. At that point farming for platinum is just more effective, and with that, you just go out and buy the arcanes you need. Srsly stupid to lock players out of grinding in a game about grinding because of time gates.
Seriously I will never understand why they just didn't give you the 111 Amp to start rather than the trash fire that is the Mote Amp. It is such an astronomical difference in damage to Eidolons.
The day/night cycle is garbage, there's almost nothing valuable during the day. Too many things are only available at night and you basically get one hour every two hours to get anything good done. And if you only have a limited amount of time to play well then fuck you. I don't get why they don't just put a cap on how many eidolons you can do in a day and just make it equal to or slightly more than what the top players are able to do and then remove the time limit. Experienced players still get the same amount of rewards and less experienced players don't have to stress about the clock. Also they should really have a higher mr requirement eidolon hunts so that new players don't wander into them by accident. I feel bad for them, it's not their fault that the game left a door to a somewhat complex fight on the fucking starter planet wide open. But new player experience is something that needs a lot of work even without taking eidolons into account...
@@toxicancient1887 This. They literally should just have a daily game mode of Kill the eidolon/tridolon. Where your only allowed to kill X amount of them but it’s enough to where the Pro’s can have their old experience, but also allow newer players to learn Eidolons. This wouldn’t change arcanes as they’re basically treated like candy and thrown around now. All this would do is increase people playing Plains and Eidolon hunts, since most people always go for Murmur in recruiting nowadays.
with umbra i think it would be really cool if when you don't have him equipped, he would be chilling somewhere on your ship, like sitting in your quarters listening to music
Melee is just simply too powerful for no reason. Ive recently been helping a couple of friends new to the game and one of the things i constantly hear from them is they dont like using all these random dogshit weapons and that melee is the only thing that actually does anything. Its quite bizarre.
My guess is that melee is more powerful to counter the fact you need to get closer to the enemy and as such you're more vulnerable to damage, however impact procs and the sheer power of the weapon killing enemies so quickly prevents that danger from even existing most of the time.
Is melee actually too strong? if you nerf melee then all you would do in steel path is nukor the enemies then the nukor would be too strong and that gets nerfed and every weapon would be shit
51:00 the reason why it's so toxic is because they're time gated. You are limited in how often you can do them so you want them done efficiently. Removing that time gate would remove that toxicity.
How is it toxic though. It is a simple gear check and your rejected if you fail. Is it toxic if I'm looking for a certified electrician and I turn down someone who doesn't? That is where that logic goes. Harassing and message spamming over if can be considered toxic. That is going out of your way to go after someone. Some rejection is just that. People need to be able to get over rejection.
@@xenosayain1506 its not aboit high level contet, its about learning, u cant learn if u dont play it first and u cant play it because people want a specific thing, plus thats where all of the toxic people are
@@SonOfHubris you say that like the dont have a wealth of resources at their fingertips. Online videos, other new/intermediate players, build guides online, ways of queuing for groups. The arguement provided is for players trying to do something specific. So therefore specific requirements are preferred. By the logic your providing it doesnt matter what your doing, what level the content is, or the players needs. Just kowtow to anyone who says help like they saryn a self sufficient human being unable to attain knowledge without it being handed to them. Sorry to say it but I expect more out of ppl. If they have 20 minutes to complain a group farming a specific item that requires specific buikds says no. They can use that 20 minutes to look up what they need and where to get it.
DE needs to sit down and have an honest, screw feelings discussion regarding the game's balance with a bunch of min/maxers, or anyone that has a good grasp on the game's mechanics. DE is under the wrong impression that Primaries and Secondary weapons are better than Melee damage wise, and focuses their nerfs on them, yet there are primary weapons that SHOULD be stronger than many melee weapons but aren't.
Your last point just isnt true. A single cut from a sword not through a vital organ is much more deadly than a single bullet not fired at a vital organ. The problem is thst melee weapons are just better for group clear and guns are pretty much just one at a time pop pop pop. The big issue with balancing this is how the enemies in this horde shooter act vs how we the players act and move. Unfortunatly making the ai smarter changes what the game is and its a hard hill to climb.
@@thedarkness125 "A single cut from a sword not through a vital organ is much more deadly than a single bullet not fired at a vital organ." how is this relevant in any way whatsoever lol
@@thedarkness125 So the issue is that the AI makes using melee more efficient because the enemies either rush you or just stand and shoot you? Yeah, that makes sense
DE has consistently decided to lean far more into Warframe being a horde shooter, while not balancing much of anything around that. Most of the new game modes/content DE adds nowadays focuses on killing hordes and hordes of enemies, but most weapons are best at killing single or small groups of enemies. It’s why weapons/abilities that can kill larger groups are so dominant. DE could add less horde focused content to balance this out, or totally change the design of their weapon systems. I would prefer they didn’t change it, I love using Bows and short range melee weapons, but I rarely bring them to the most meaningful content because they just don’t do well enough against hordes
yup, the mods available for melee + the combo system is insanely better than anything available for primary or secondary weapons. That's why I usually only bring them as status affliction weapons.
I feel like a big issue with the more organized fights like eidolons is that they are completely separate from the regular enemies so they will always be minmaxed to hell because there's no reason to build for anything else when you want to kill them
While that is true Profit Taker had so many adds (That were not scaled to the fact that there was a boss also present) when it first launched that it was impossible to stay alive with any frame AND manage to do the arbitrary time gate at the end. DE needs to get a grip on what they want the game to be, you cant have a hord shooter if you make the enemys 50x harder to kill while also only needing to cough in your general direction to kill you
@@cherryrook8684 Orb Vallis enemies are garbage to fight in general even without the ridiculous damage with how much knockdown that they have, so when you have a giant boss with weapons that kill you instantly and no way to CC or otherwise disable them, and like a hundred enemies on the ground that can also kill you instantly if you're not playing a frame with straight up invincibility, you get a very annoying boss battle. Not to mention the having to use your clunky ass archgun but euhg... that's a whole other issue. Also I don't know if other people have this issue I can barely see anything in the orb vallis because of how bright the stupid snow is. Having dozens of enemies constantly beaming down from orbit in a fight where you have to constantly be moving to dodge the boss's rockets and barely being able to see because everything is super bright is the least enjoyable kind of clusterfuck. Generally horde shooters use a lot of contrast so you can easily identify the enemies even at a fast pace where it might be difficult to see details.
I would like to see more podcasts, where you bring in other Warframe youtubers and talk about thing's that would make the game better or what they enjoy how they started etc. Love your content and how you always stay honest.
I mean they tried to nerf the bronco's dizzying shot just cause it made you able to finisher to death enemies. Despite that not being op in anyway they still tried to nerf it.
Imagine loving gas so much you farmed and formad a bunch of weapons just for how they lend themselves to gas builds... I was expecting a faction mod change, hell I'd like to see them reworked entirely, but this is just strange.
If adult operators end up being a thing which exists after plains of duviri, maybe primaries have a use if they can use them? Maxed out operators actually bring a lot of options, putting a decent gun on top of that might make them worth investing into over melle.
I feel like harder group content that requires varies enemy designs would be good too Need to approach a fight with heavy single target and some back up aoe? Need to balance CC and mechanics? Need to go hard on AoE? They just need more interesting mission/boss designs
I agree. They need to do some serious updates on the mission types. Most of them are largely ignored unless forced to do them (i.e. Spy, Sab, etc.). The rewards just aren't there.
Yea, they would need to fix the general ai/enemy design problem first, but most missions imo need to be revamped with enemies that you need to bring a specific answer for the situation at higher tiers in the star chart, or training wheel enemies at lower tiers
@@yokai1235 yes. Everyone is all about enemy level and ai. But the real solution is simply the enemy designs need to change and be updated. Most of these enemies we face were developed face warframes when warframe first came out. Back when warframes could only use one or two abilities and spamming abilities was much harder. Since then warframes have gotten numerous buffs and changes but the enemies have never gotten such treatment
@@nicholasfitzgerald585 exactly, revamping the ai won't do much when most of the enemies we face can be perms CC'd, one shot, face tanked, or mind controlled as soon as we turn the corner, warframes have just gotten to strong and have a consistent stream of energy and ammo and we still fighting the same 3 or 4 grunts and maybe two different heavies that we have been since we got out of the tutorial
Imo the #1 game for them to study rn. It remembers the pillars of shooters, movement, target prioritization and weapon counters are everything, these people could make the most basic shooter fun cause they understand what makes meaningful gameplay flow, it doesn't even have to be hard.
The problem is the damage. Just think about it. You have to slice your enemy once with a Reaper Prime, but you have to put 100 shots in a corpus boi on the steel path with Soma Prime. What's the point?!
Range engagement is irrelevant in this game apart from open world and infested but even with infested you would kill them much faster with your melee than a gun
@@emwZEEK Range engagement is basically non-existent in WF because u can either bullet jump or void dash that covers hundreds of meters within half a sec (which is LONGER than all gun weapon damage fall off). At this point it is almost always faster to jump in and melee dudes compare to shooting, except open world (even then you can probably just archwing and melee heavy slam on ground that kills everything).
@@alexalexzhemail7166 Non existent is not the right word. Guns still have more usage time than melee generally speaking. You can say non-optimal if you want but it definitely exists. And when i say long range i am talking about down a hallway or the other end of a room around 40 meters max.
At around 29:00 when you were talking about the integration and deintegration of Lua spy into the sorties: Thing is, the entirety of warframe is just "kill as much as possible, as fast as possible and keep moving". A spy mission requires you to stop moving and think for a bit, which is not like the rest of the game, which revolves around deleting hordes of enemies with a click of a button, and using your brain capacity equivalent to being in a coma. My point is that when the game pretty much teaches you that the best offense is a good offense, you will of course find it annoying to carefully search the environment and look for a path.
Zim Zimmerman Brozime mentioned a long time ago that when you summon them during day it should be something like a total eclipse so the eidolon rises thinking it’s night
@Legendarysuper SavageRocklee considering how far prices for those have dropped, and hoe its easier to farm plat I really doubt people still go out to farm arcanes so much so that there are literally tons of groups out when night comes around. Also theres also tedium that makes people eventually not wanna do things like eidolons.
@@XyTeRx you should check warframe.market statistics chart before saying that their price has dropped. They have almost doubled the last few months and they continue rising, their prices dropped when there were more people farming them during the covid quarantine. Now you can do a tridolon in 10 minutes and possibly get a 45p arcane, 15p with bad luck, making it one of the best plat farms in the game, but also the most expensive and difficult to play if you wanna do more runs per night. Like the OP I still wish we could fight tridolons during day.
@@nolandbeyond8890 i think you missed the point though. melees can be so much more powerful than primaries or secondaries with much less forma. in fact, you didn't just miss the point. your comment directly supported the point while being worded in opposition to it.
i feel like it's kind of an Almost design choice due to melees and frames both having mods that can directly increase capacity for free while also having umbral mods, something like an umbral serration would be very difficult to fit into a build without a stance or aura mod type thing to increase slots but both of these things had very different release dates so this is probably just a later decision
Problem is that the melees getting overbuffed over time. Before they were just last use weapons when your primary was out of ammo or you needed to relaod, and the melee slot was used for utility of coptering as well. Primaries you usually had AOE weapons and 2ndaries didn't really have any AOE back in the day, but had good single target smgs/pistol weapons for DPS.
I think its mainly that melee have more avenues of boosting their base damage. Primaries ususaly have no scaling means, so even when they have amazing damage (which is rare) they will be overtaken. A primary weapon will usualy get close to yellow crits, and only very specific examples can reach orange crits, and even then, rarely. Their base damage tend to be between 20 to 100 damage per shot, compared to melee which can have above 1k base damage, and they can actually reach consistent red crits. Again, the reason why redeemer prime is the best primary in the game is because of its high base damage, infinite ammo, and various ways of scaling up, plus it bypasses the soft invulnerabilities of many enemies to projectile and explosive weapons.
@@yahyamusseb I don't agree that it's broken beyond repair, but that said the time investment would also be so high to go over everything and put some serious thought into how weapons and progression should be rebalanced, that they would just have to stop releasing content for a good several months and there's no way they would do that.
I've just found your channel and have binged a load today while playing Warframe. I've just come back from the first time since 2016 and I notice a lot of progression systems seem a bit busted as you mentioned. The main issue I'm having is eidolons though. I understand that players don't want some noob with a mote amp slowing them down on 3 eidolon runs. But it's still not easy when the progression of that whole system is "Do eidolons, get better amp, do more eidolons" but you can't realistically smash out an eidolon run with a mote amp. So, in reality, the progression is "leech off some players with good gear, build better amp, be a contributing member of the squad and help"
Primaries and secondaries should exist that can kill enemies 1 at a time fast af. Killing 1 enemy at a time isn't a problem for balance in warframe. It's aoe and abilities that can trivialize content. So I always felt rifles need a buff.
They kinda already do, its just the damage when not going for a crit headshot weapon is just "slightly"/1 mod slot too low. If you took the tigris prime, reduced its ammo pool to 14, but made its status chance the promised value (25% per pellet aka 90% per shot probability/3x30% it had) with a innate passive of "slash is always weighted 80%" it would wreck enemies just as it did with half its duplex shot instead of taking 4 bullets/shots to kill proper enemies. Same way for the vhek, give its on hit stagger a power increase to the full on enemy stumbling animation and passive of 80% extra total damage vs staggered enemies, etc. Or just buff guns by around 60-70% base damage. while doing the ammo pool reduction.
I THOROUGHLY ENJOYED this talk on Twitch, and can here to leave that sweet sweet Thumbs up. 👍🏽 Dan Olson-Esque game-design theory discussions like this are one of many reasons why I enjoy watching BroZime.
The problem is so deepbaked into the games core: Its an issue of the damage types, the enemy design, how we deal damage. I feel like a whole enemy overhaul is in place. We have way too many enemies who just shoot you without having anything special about them. A game in a similar vein that had way better enemy variety was Mass Effect 3s Multiplayer
An enemy/mission rework really needs to be the next popular thing to catch on in the community because it could address a lot of issues without directly nerfing anything.
1 thing for me atleast is to make all weapons have 1 meter of punch through with weapons like the optic or being much higher like maybe 3-5 Certain weapons should have like a shrapnel effect on enemies to cause splinter damage on impact damaging nearby enemies also applying status Another thing I wondered is if something like weapon channeling could work where you can have like a temporary damage boost using either energy or more ammo to give a beefy damage boost to each shot almost like the battacor idk
I feel like they probably used octavia or other power heavy frames and said they did it with only a stug. Do it with Inaros only and I'll be impressed.
The power fantasy aspect has was fun. Was. Turns out being an all powerful god of death gets boring when there's nothing able to challange you. So much so that [DE] had to design enemies that are immune to or disable your kit for SOME semblance of balance. IMO there's several gameplay aspects that ruin challenge: 1. Abilities have no cooldown - All you have to do is spam your biggest aoe CC or Damage skill (Well damage less so because it gets outscaled pretty quick unless you're playing the few frames not designed in 2009). You get to have your buffs up 100 % of the time. Speed, damage resist, damage boosts. 2. Energy economy - Leading from my first point, energy is too easy to get, abilities have no thought process to use. "Is x CC/Buff about to run out? Press y" 3. Weapon Mods - Whoever decided that weapon mods should be stat increases needs to be replaced. Mods should have been like augments. All mods should have the ability to alter your weapon in some way. A bonus and a cost (in spirit of the corrupted mods). 4. Enemy AI and competence - All group in a tunnel for easy cleaves. No serious attempts at cover, flanks. No big threats or "OH SHIT" moments. Ever played Mass Effect 3? Remember seeing a Banshee or Phantom? Or Deep rock galactic's Bulk detonator. The closest we have is stalker. And when's the last time you didn't one shot him or panic when he arrived. 5. FUCK RIVENS I have been playing warframe since stamina was a thing. Sure the game was slower then, but we have been power creeping ever since.
To your point 2, you should remember that's the way the game used to be if you really have been playing since Stamina was a thing. Do you not remember the constant complaining about it until the devs finally relented and added in things like energize? The way energy is now is the only reason some warframes have the kit that they do so there's not really any going back to how things were.
@@Ashendal Yeah, we had something called Trinity. Had one in every squad. I still remember the "eV" "EV" "Use EV" "ev plz" spam in chat. She had 2 uses, both eclipsed by Arcane energise and Magus repair. Now trinity is pretty much only used in defection where she, OH! Trivialises the mode by bypassing the node management with a 100% heal whenever you need it. I am not saying its a bad thing that energy is easy to come by. I am saying abilities need to be gated either by energy management or cooldowns. What we have now isn't healthy for a game. Ease of access to health and 'mana' trivializes anything But then it wouldn't be warframe anymore now would it?
@@shaheedk.3386 So only cooldowns then, because we're not getting energy management back. Which is just going to lead to people like Brozime complaining about not being able to use abilities to clear fodder enemies "efficiently" or how abilities "suck" because they don't do "enough" damage and now have arbitrary cooldowns attached and we're back to where we were with energy. Pandora's box was opened years ago and there's no fixing what happened without a ground up redo of all abilities in the game and that's both not happening because DE won't spend that much effort and the usual suspects would shout that it would hurt the game. That's the overarching issue. One group doesn't want a balanced game because they think that is what makes warframe a "power fantasy" and the rest just get yelled over when we bring up issues with that mentality. For everything Brozime gets right about the game his obsession with "why can't I just one shot everything" that shows up sometimes prevents him from seeing why he gets so much wrong.
Brozime doesn't seem to get that there's tons of difficult 'power fantasy' games. Devil May Cry 5 being the easiest to point out. EVERY SINGLE PART OF THE GAME is built around making the player feel amazing and powerful.... but you can screw it up and fail hard.
Yikes the bit about “leaving from lack of challenge” got me. I was one of those people who adored raids, and sherpa’d raids often. I enjoyed the challenge offered by speed runs and coordination of raid groups. It took me two years after their removal to leave (around October/November of 2019), but I had been tapering off for a long time, with my friends and I trying to do stupid challenges to keep ourselves in the game. Summer of 2018 saw us doing runs of 1 hr index for Prodman posters every day leading up to Fortuna’s release. I know that Warframe’s game design has focused more and more on the power fantasy. But while it is fun to delete hoards of enemies, the skill stagnancy I now associate with the game just makes it feel...pointless. It’s painfully evident in the weapon system, where it doesn’t really matter what weapon you use or how skillfully you play with it, it’ll perform all the same. There’s no inherent benefit to skillful play. Most of my former raid team have moved on to other games due to the this very problem.
I can agree that melee is just objectively better than guns, but I still prefer guns because they're just more fun to me. With guns, I'm aiming, I'm getting headshots, I'm hearing the "bang," or "boom" of the gun, and the enemy dies. It's satisfying. Now melee can be fun, but it gets repetitive after a while, and it's a lot of spamming "E." ... also, I main Harrow, and he kinda prefers the shooty-shooty, so I may be a bit biased. :P
One thing I really hate about Melee weapons is the completely fake depth to them. They boast a combo system and movesets but all you do is just mash the button while either standing or running depending on stance/situation. They try to don the guise of a character action game like DMC or Bayo but it's simply not there and will never be there. Fucking Halo Energy Swords and CoD Knives have more depth to them. All the combo system does is create that huge gap between melees and non-melees and all the movesets do is overwhelm new players into thinking they need to do ACTUAL combos.
Man I have been repeating that argument but all I ever get back is "noooo you have to get close to the enemy so its balanced." Its not really a "combo system" if the combo goes up by pressing a single button.
The old "Mortal Kombat" style combo system was *horrible* because it required exact timing of pauses, while the pause time depended on the attack speed of the weapon, and had no visual feedback that you were in a combo. A QTE-style system with onscreen prompts would have fixed that, but then people would have complained about QTEs - the "mercy kill" prompt we have at the moment (which only flashes up for half a second just before the enemies die anyway) is barely tolerable because of how rarely we need to mercy kill (except for liches, where the prompt is persistent).
@@oohshiny8713 Yeah I'm not really asking for a "real" combo system anyway, I just think that Warframe's overall game design just doesn't work out for engaging melee combat.
I should be able to take my rifle into any match and stay for a long time just as I would with a melee. That guy sounds bias towards melee. What's the point of having all those primaries and secondaries and not be able to take them into hard content. Not everyone wants to be constantly spamming the melee button. THEY NEED A BUFF!
Another thing that invalidates guns: warframes go goddamn fast. Fast to the point where you could just bullet jump at an enemy while pressing E and kill it just as quickly as shooting it
To the idea of something clearing a mission, unmodded stug can clear every kill mission, you're just gonna take forever. It's more about not wasting time.
Exactly this. This is a farming game. Do it fast or you’re just wasting time. Do I give a crap if the Paris Prime can kill when it has draw time and only kills one enemy at a time? F that, I’ll just Broken Bull through the mob.
In my experience, when new players get the Broken War they just never use a primary or secondary again until they can grab Ignis Wraith and/or Atomos/Kuva Nukor. Because Broken War is whats going to be actually viably killing stuff pass Uranus without them expending farming effort/plat on more potatoes and Forma, which they barely understand the importanceb by that time, since it also requires orokin cell farming which only long time players have enough of
When scarlet spear dropped i was so happy because we had 90% of eidolon hunters being toxic, i did not run them hard but i had everything the meta wanted but everyone always would be 1M caps or you suck, and due to that i stayed away from eidolons completely. Now no one wants to run them any more as much and i love it
Da Build, in terms of investment, with a few exceptions is 5 polarities on a primary, and 5 polarities again on a pistol, although pistols can have a “fully functional” build on 2 polaritIes and rifles need 1-2 as well Melee fits the max build on 3 polarities, starts with more, and downscales better to fit more powerful builds with less investment This relates to the subtopic around 45:00 where zime talks about investment, melee needs less investment, wants less investment, and is better
Polarities need a shakeup. 90% of useful mods on regular guns and melee are V polarity, 9% are Dash and, for D polarity you have Cold Damage and Drifting Contact.
Gotta say, most of the time I agreed with Freezer. Brozime has some good points, but weapons aren't a binary good or bad. If a weapon can complete content within a reasonable amount of effort than it isn't bad, it may not be good, but it isn't bad.
I think probably the best thing they could do is design enemies with resistances to weapon types and, in that, create weapon roles. The Nox, for example, pretty much asks for a gun because of the accuracy requirement. Most other enemies are taken out with a melee. They could make Eximus enemies, for example, have just an innately high damage resistance to melee weapons, but a damage multiplier to primary weapons. (Compared to "low ammo, high damage" suggestion, that also keeps things like Shotgun Only or Melee Only sorties from being very, very arduous or ammo-hungry) That same sort of thing can also apply to AoE weapons so that single-target weapons have their own effective niche, even if they're only used occasionally because players cleave through most everything else with melee. That also means gun-lovers can bring one AoE weapon for fodder, one single-target weapon for heavy targets, _and_ things like the Bramma can be tweaked back up in their utility (so not quite so nerfed in ammo count, for example) without skewing balance too much. Because, sure, it deals a lot of damage, but those heavy units will be able to eat it. Given the power levels we're working in, the resistance mechanic may need include something atypical like "health-gating" when using an AoE or a melee weapon that single-target weapons bypass, to ensure higher TTK with those large-reach weapons. A melee may still probably be able to get through something like that quite quickly, _but_ it won't be as quick as pulling a rifle and bipping the enemy in the head or shoulder. (Knees and toes~) You'd definitely feel the difference, no matter the size of the numbers thrown out. And I think, with health-gating resistances on AoE weapons and multipliers on single-target weapons, it'd create a healthy niche for both across the level spectrum. Not something like 90% damage resistance that might only make a tangible difference at level 110+ because of the damage we output, nor something like "everything ends up super tanky so rely on your melee anyway because it doesn't matter" (why I include the multiplier part - don't just rely on discouraging AoE, encourage single-target weapons too). It may not _guarantee_ balanced use of the two kinds of weapons, but it encourages it, doesn't force it, and IMO provides a decent change of feel even if you hack-and-slash for the entire mission, because you feel it when you run into those heavy enemies. That's just me, though. I do think trying to rely on damage numbers wouldn't work very well. We could have 30x the damage on low-ammo weapons, but for the vast majority of content, you're still one-shotting everything and melee does it best from that pure numbers perspective. You could redesign that content but at that point, you're basically buffing everything and then buffing enemies to match (and then dealing with the problems of modding for the new players building up their equipment). There's a more straightforward solution. TL;DR Idea is: 1. Give heavy enemies health-gating that applies to AoE weapons (melee, explosives...) 2. Give single-target weapons multiplier bonuses on those heavy enemies, on top of bypassing the health gating 3. Trying to muck with the plain numbers probably won't work for the damage we output.
The thing that is needed are missions that only have sparse heavy enemies with more complex interesting mechanics instead of just damaged health and armor
I would just add a Combo System for Primaries and Secondaries that's just the Sniper Combo System. Heavily rewarded for consecutive hits, but heavily penalized for missing. Now Guns aren't "Oonga Boonga" like Melee, but that's because they have a higher risk/reward and a limited way to deal damage. Guns now scale per bullet, each hit adding to the counter, with Headshots counting for 2x the score and misses removing the counter. Snipers really don't have many scaling issues, and any that would arise from this could easily be fixed by introducing more Primed Mods to their inventory. The idea now is that Guns build up Combo incredibly fast and hit quite hard, but don't last that long due to their ammo nerfs. Weapons that would obviously be buffed the hell out of due to this could easily be fixed with a few tweaks. Broz already suggested a nerf to Shotgun ammo (and ammo in general I'd assume), so let's start with that. Launchers already have reduced ammo, so let's make it so Headshots don't award extra score, but that's compensated by the fact that you can hit more enemies at once (now missing with Launchers is also seriously punishing, and I'm sure you can add to it by making Staggers reduce it as well). Make Shotguns only scale through kills for example, and I'm sure the system would work fine, even if you have to personalize each weapon archetype specifically. Maybe Assault Rifles ramp up the Combo faster based on how many consecutive hits you get, making Fire Rate, Reload Speed and Punch-Through more valuable on them, but now they decay much quicker to incentivize constantly hitting foes? These are of course just suggestions, but you can still have a similar Combo System to Snipers without necessarily ripping it off. Why not bring up the fact that this can be a massive boon to Warframes that use Exalted Primaries and Secondaries as well? I'd maybe just make it so they can't increase the Counter itself unless they get kills, that way Warframes like Ivara or Mesa that do somewhat struggle as the levels rise (yes, there are Warframes that allow them to circumvent this, the idea here would be to make it so those Warframes aren't necessarily required anymore, but only if you can get more kills) don't have such issues. If this were implemented I'd gladly take a nerf to Mesa if she were to somehow become a problem, I'd love to aim her 4 manually for example if they deemed the "aimbot" mechanic to be far too much with such a change, but I imagine that's up to DE in the end. Though, again, this may have to be drastically tweaked between each Warframe, Hildryn with her 1 Augment comes to mind as a possible flaw in this kind of system, however, I would gladly take nerfs in some respects if that meant the system as a whole was more beneficial to Guns. Broz also brought up the idea of specific enemies needing Guns (or just Melee) to be killed, and I'd have to say I agree. The more variety we have with our enemies, the more limitations are imposed on us, the better we'll have to be to combat them. There are quite a few enemies like this already, but it's not like giving us more "weak spot" enemies is a bad thing if done correctly. Why not have a Corpus unit that staggers you if you Melee it, but shuts down when you blow out the orbs flying around it giving it said Shield? Keep them low enough so Melee can still work in case of an emergency, but incentivize using your Gun by making them higher than normal. There are other ways to increase the value of Guns without directly buffing them, and Mods are a good alternative. For argument's sake, I think when most people say "guns suck", they're more specifically referring to Rifles or Arch-Guns, as at least for me, every other Gun type I've used hasn't missed the mark nearly as bad as these weapons have. They lack a strong assortment of Primed Mods, their Base Damage is so low that Sentient enemies completely ignore them, their Fire Rate is usually jacked way up so you run out of bullets quite often, the list goes on. Maybe DE should try to buff the outliers first before trying to overhaul the whole system? You may as well nerf ammo economy across the board for all weapons, especially when it comes to Carrier. His Ammo Crate ability really should have a longer pause in-between ammo, as it currently trivializes most ammo limitations. I would just compensate for this by making it so ammo drops are now much rarer, but instantly refill your ammo pool when you pick them up, maybe make it so Melee Kills and/or Mercy Kills drastically increase this chance. Now you have less drop spam, and if you're really in need of Ammo, why not bring Protea or loot frames like Nekros? Give Loot Warframes (and the idea of ammo resupply) more of a solid Supportive use outside of pure Resource gains, especially the Loot Augments some of these Warframes have. Why not look towards the future with this concept as well? Melee Weapons are supposed to receive the whole "Limit Break" thing later on to replace Channeling, why not add it to Guns as well? While it's active make it so you receive ammo for each kill, maybe have it increase reload speed for every kill, the list goes on. I'd speak more about this kind of system, but I have no idea what it entails (or if it's still even coming), so I'm just going to passively mention it. Sorry for the wall of text, but I think if folks are going to suggest these kinds of changes, they're going to have to be specific and offer quite a bit of evidence. Unfortunately with changes like these, I see far too many people claiming Guns are weak and stating they need to be on par with Melee Weapons, without offering substantial evidence or some way to convince DE. DE inherently feels Guns need to be weaker than Melee, if Bramma and the recent AoE nerfs are any indication, so we're going to have to try a bit harder to convince them here.
Why the hell should you be gimping yourself with gun misses? You don't lose combo with melee misses. The combo system as implemented in snipers as it is right now, is also horrible. You can only gain it while aiming, on top of the rapid decay speed, it entirely goes against what actual snipers are intended to reward, patience. Plus, console players don't get to aim very well. Having half of the arsenal locked out just because of control scheme limitations is not very good. Not to mention that combo systems only reward fast weapons and leave the heavies in the dust.
I've been running without melee for past couple of weeks, been a lot more fun but have been falling back to AoE guns, bramma / nukor anything that isn't AoE just isn't worth it
Maybe the issue is... idk, the fact that you can one-shot everything with any weapon. Early in the game's life, none of these issues existed. Ogris had a place. Shotgun had a place. Melee had a place. Melee damage and mobility needs gutted. Armor needs gutted. But the problem is Rivens, which is where gamebreaking stuff comes from.
It would be nice if DE would just for now either: a) add a hidden "Primary / Secondary Weapon Damage +X00%" modifier to Steel Path or; b) buff the base damage on all Primaries and Secondaries by X00% (and get their damage much closer to that of Melee). It wouldn't even break the new player experience - they have access to melee dealing so much damage already anyway. Opportunity cost of any more complex changes would probably be too high. But it's nice to dream.
Riven's should be unique effects cool effects like Syndicate mods. With one positive stat and a negative attribute, as an example, you get a Hek Riven right and it can be something like the bullets are now Lasers and it has an inate punch through of like 1.5 and the weapon no longer reloads but coolsdown if you use it too much. like a 2 or 2.5 second cooldown. So you have a positive effect and a negative effect that cant be changed like you cant just add more reload to make the cooldown faster. Then add a stat like +Heat or something. Or an Amprex Riven could be like, it now shoots balls of lightning that explode in an AOE instead of just the chain. So the fire rate becomes much lower but it adds a unique way to clear fodder enemies. Again add a stat like +Range or something. The Soma's bullets now spread more and explode on hit, +Blast.
Mae Vixie Sure, I mean it’s something other games do, where instead of just straight up adding more stats, for really powerful weapons they add a unique aspect that changes the formula up.
a simple thing could be to add some cool new mods, like double tap for the latron but for all weapons & primed chamber for all weapons. We need mods for guns that can replicate heavy attacks, weeping wound, blood rush and combo count. A good start would be Double Tap. Hit a target and for 1-2 seconds you get an extra 22.5% damage (stacks 20x). Serration gives 165% damage and this new mod would give 250% when at max stacks. For weapons like the Tigris, Opticor, Vectis etc, they can't benefit from this mod but weapons like the Soma, Vipers, Supra, Gorgon etc, will benefit greatly from it. Then another mod could be (PH) Timed Shots. +250% damage (1-3 seconds cool down, shots taken before cool down ends will reset the counter). This would be great for single shot weapons and horrible for spray and pray guns. Mods like this would be awesome.
It is mainly the combo counter that gives melee so huge damage buffs and op mods like blood rush or weaping wounds that heavily add and synergize with the melee combo counter that makes melee have this insane damage output. If primary and secondary weapons would get a similar combo system i have not doubt that they would outperform melee. But on the other hand a combo system for the primarys would probably do more damage than good for the overall health of the game becaus it would completely obliterate and devaluate any type of the ordinary content De usually puts in the game. I mean with the insane damage output all weapons would be capable to do with combo systems for every weapon they would need to make level 200 or 300 enemys the base enemys in the game. And i don't think they would want to do that they will probably rather let melee weapons stand as an outlier in damage output and have steel path as an outlier type of content.
Two extra mags...so what the seer has lol. Also, I believe stances should see a balancing since all weapons have a best stance or only a single stance.
I remember way back when this game was basically; "Pick a frame you like, some weapons you like, forma if you like them a lot". Balance issue then was ability scaling, now it seems like balance is just very wonky.
it would be interesting to see a good dismemberment/disarmament mechanic as part of an enemy overhaul. it would make players being able to let them take their time and knowing how to kill say a lvl 100 heavy gunner without using Unga Bunga sword slashes. it could also be both a starting point for an overhaul of weapons and how they are used and how missions can be played. with the weapons and the disarmament overhaul, you can make weapons with specifications be able to do unique things like increasing damage the more far away you are with snipers or being able to stagger an opponent with shotgun or being able to target specific weak spots like a heavy gunners ammo belt or a moa's leg to slow it down with an auto or semi rifle. something like borderlands does with its enemies. and with the disarmament overhaul, you can also do a missions overhaul too. imagine doing an endless mission run and you would have a horde of enemies taking you on and then as time goes on, more and more rare and unique enemies would come in and the horde would get shorter and shorter. it would give players a chance to access the situation and know how to use their weapons, utilizing status procs, knowing the weakness of the enemies and how to use weapons effectively without making it to be a weapon stat stick. make it be able to be like old school monster hunter or Doom Eternal, don't make the weapon be the key and the enemies the lock, let the *player* be the key, and the enemy the lock.
I kinda like the idea of buffing primaries and secondaries, and then getting rid of weapon classes. Like maybe instead of having a broken primary with this restriction (low ammo), broken secondary with this other restriction, and then broken melee with this third restriction (way shorter range), we just have 1 weapon slot. That way each weapon has meaningful upsides and downsides and those things matter since you can't just get another weapon to offset those weaknesses.
It'd be nice if DE made these changes but the chance of them pursuing the problem is probably 0. They need to meet their quota of one large scaled mission map "open world" and abandonware gamemode per year if they're going to continue to market their game and please their chinese shareholders. It's sad to see this game with huge potential and talented developpers go to waste and watch as they pump more new content with no concern placed on fixing the expired spaghetti code that barely holds the game together or refining the older content/mechanics that are so desperately in need of change. Quarantine was the chance to win a good chunk of this game's player base back including me but after playing for a couple weeks it's sad to see that nothing's really changed.
I believe that the single most broken melee mod is "Condition Overload" because once you proc a single status be it a forced proc, lifted, knockdown or just chance it's as good as "pressure point". And the moment you proc 2 statuses it blows "primed pressure point" out of the water. A fair reduction would be to make it increase damage by 80% per status. Making it worse than pressure point up front, slightly worse than primed pressure point after 2 procs and noticeably better after 3 which is what you should aim for. And it only goes up from there. Instead of the insane 360% damage at 3 it gets 180% The other option is to buff pressure point either with higher bonuses or more ranks and a lower base cost to maintain the progression. (With a reduction to the rank cost so that doesn't make them a waste of endo.) The nerf option is the easiest one to do and it doesn't have many knock on effects but it's also the option that will upset the players. Nerfs should be disguised as buffs in order to please the players. A good example is what blizzard did with rested xp BONUS vs REDUCING xp gain for extended play sessions. The results were pretty comparable but the reaction from players was very different.
What do you guys think as an endgame kinda like the steel path that has a “bar” you could set scaling infinitely/level 4000 or so that also has rewards that scale with what is set, so if someone chooses level 300 Kuva survival maybe you get 400 per capsule and if someone chooses 3000 maybe you get 2000 per cap
If DE reacts to this problem by nerfing melee weapons, I'll definitely quit the game. I just think they have to buff almost every primary and secondary weapons with a big update. Indeed, why aiming at heads with Soma Prime when you can destroy the entire game with your Kronen Prime without any effort ? Some status also need to be buffed. Gas, explosive, magnetic, puncture, impact... My idea for impact damages is : impact procs directly bypass 85% of the armor. It doesn't break it, it just ignores it. Overpowered maybe but that would be an amazing UP for a lot of weapons.
Warframe's balance in a nutshell: I used gun, it was mildly effective... I used secondary, it was moderately effective... I used kill frame, it was very effective. I used melee, it was super effective!
8:30 I disagree for the "less ammo" economy. Nothing more boring than playing the game melee only with occasional shooting. Should just be as powerfull as melee weapons. A "bandaid" solution could be to up the headshot dmg on ennemies. So you reward aiming a bit instead of only shooting the bodies. Also, Bumping the spawnrate could be awesome !
I legitimately love these longer podcast vids. But I've also been just fucked out of eidolons/orbs because I couldn't do them. So I ended up learning from TH-cam and teaching other people ON THE FLY in missions. Its absolutely ridiculous.
The points about everything "needing" to be competitive and "your opinions are invalid because you haven't done X" ar so accurate. I think both stem from what Freezer said about needing to feel some kind of superiority over someone else, and it's really sad. And the worst is content gating by the players, not the game, as you said about the raids and such. Everytime there's some semblance of endgame in a game ( and by that I mean an activity thats the accumulation of most of your time in that game, aka wow raids, poe maps, etc ) players who complete that activity early turn around and gate players who come after because they didn't complete it at their time, so they must somehow be less skilled or something.
Buuuut if I was looking for efficiency in a hell of a grind, I dont want to teach. I want to do the grind and get it over with quickly. ....soooooo I'm toxic if I want people of the same skill calibur(this applies to all games not just warframe) There is a time and a place to teach. I think when people get rejected for raids in any game they just say it's toxic cause they are salty af. Get over rejection. The world won't always accept you. Just say whatever, look for another group, and/or go solo.
For me the problem has always been that melee scales much more than the other types (except maybe sniper, but singletarget), and few people are willing to actually remove that from melee. So I think if they want to have primary/secondary, they need to give them something scaley too. Some weapons inherently has something as a feature, but others are just always at a huge disadvantage to melee just because they designed it to scale so widely. Also some features hasn't really kept up like for some reason, melee has more mod capacity while also being more powerful? :p
As a nova main I can confirm that all weapons shred, but I still only really use my Mara detron. I shoot my second twice and then boom everything in 25 meters is evaporated.
A cool idea would be to add something like a core or amp that could be attached to certain primary types and would amplify it to that next level youre talking about. Maybe this attachment has like 3 unique mod slots. Probably would be rare to the order of like umbral mods or something like that, hiding behind some crazy quest that only the nutties would drag themselves through.
Ok, so I have one reason I used the min hydro cap on recruiting when I was doing tridos: I used 20+ for 4x3 runs, just coz few time I got a guy who was so sure he knew what he was doing fucked the whole run.
@ 1:12:00 ish - the talk about lures and whatnot. It would be great if The Quills gave you a deployable 'lure' gear item at tier 3 of their ranking to make hunts easier and give positive feedback to ranking up with them in regards to the hunting loop.
Something I've noticed is that most people still working through the star chart don't have issues with the difficulty. It's a challenge but it can be overcome with a little extra effort. And the balance issue comes up for late and end game. The people who have everything dont feel the same rush of a new weapon that a newer player does. I feel that the game does need some work but it also has a lot to do with player perception, and developer perception. Each group sees different things.
It's funny when they mentioned how infinite ammo is a thing and it reminded me when i pitched a warframe idea to rebb back in 2013. It was a trinity like frame but it would give teammates some ammo and change ammo type, then she denied the idea because "infinite ammo wouldnt give tennos a challenge". Yet here we are
The biggest problem with lures is the situation they cause where: they aren't charged, someone kills the eidolon, and you fail to capture. That's what creates the toxicity with eidolon and more so tridolon. One person being able to unknowingly fail a mission especially when you're far into it like on the second or last one, makes people hyper critical of who they play with. I play public, almost exclusively, and it really sucks to get to the end and then fail to capture. What makes that even worse is that I'm gonna have to wait about an hour to try that again, and you might not have that time. You might have work or school or kids, and so you have little free time and it hurts to feel like that time was wasted.
Ok but on the topic where we were pretending higher mr meant more power and that means you throw the old guns out, that already happens based on the standing power scale across the weapon spectrum. That’s why the term mr fodder exists.
I shouldn't have to put 4-6 forma into a weapon to make it useable. I find a lot of weapons *require* this basic forma amount to get the most mileage out of them,but by then,I honestly have better weapons to use.
a more simple answer would be to introduce many more enemies that are totally immune to melee, not just slash resistant or immune. this would force you to use other things. And this could be linked to MR so you would see less or none of these kinds of enemies when low MR and more when higher.
Actual issues would be: Few melee going over the 40k dps mark, stance damage modifiers being across all attacks instead of THE static block attack (on most stances there is no point in using the static block attack)+stances still being fucky with the forward combo animation lock roots you while static combo moves you forward faster than sprinting on non-speed frames and the mentioned ammo economy with mod imbalance. The vast majority of non shit guns on paper beat melee, massively so if you go for headshots, however they dont do it fast enough vs cleave unless aoe (tho around 2/5ths of the aoe weapons dont have the stats/are in the weaker than melee part). A drop in 60-90% of ammo pool for 1.6~1.7x base damage (or for some cases like the tigris prime, just undoing the pellet nerf and simply do what was promised in the status changes by making it 90% status probability per shot/25% status per pellet instead of the 60% it is right now) on guns wouldnt be amiss.
Dumb idea i have: Add a combo system to primary and secondary weapons that increases with each hit shot buffing the weapon somehow and than for a reward from some steel path mission add mods like blood rush, weeping woord and condition overload mods but for primaries and secondaries
For some reason i find the melee in warframe to be not satisfying in any way i dont know why but for example the halo melee is just amazing in my opinion and that’s why i want primaries to be better in warframe because right now being forced to use melee is just killing variety in warframe as well
I was thinking about that whole balance thing, even more when I realized that my most used primary is a Ferrox build for throwing and the actual "gun" that I was using was the Stropha, because I can basically erase anything In my FoV. In most of Warframe's content, AoE dmg is more important and most of the guns don't really provide it(except in cases like eidolon hunt or some niche build), and you con see that in the case of the kuva Nukor that is: easy to use, has High AoE dmg, has an good single target dmg and because it can proc a lot of status in a lot of targets is a good utility tool, And then weapons that were used to similar things became kinda obsolete, because there is a gun that can basically do it all. And no I'm not saying that kuva Nukor should be nerfed, I think that should buff or at least adjust the others. Sorry if I misspelled something, I'm Brazilian so english is not my main language.
More warframes that shine with primary and secondaries or exalted variants like mirage and mesa respectively need to be a thing to kinda remedy the whole melee vs primary/secondary issue. Granted it'd be just one small part of the solution, it'd help things along imo. Most warframes either buff their damage across the board (rhino, harrow, volt, etc.) or just use abilities for the sake of using abilities or CC (Grendel, Frost, etc.). I don't see enough warframes that really can use their abilities in sync with their primaries/secondaries that buffs them in a unique way.
I love these kinds of vids, although I feel I fall into that category of MR27 3k+ hours and i still don't know everything and feel silly when i hear about things like Ivara's 1 during her 4.
i've been thinking for a while that "heavy" primary weapons like the ogris, opticor, etc do extremely underwhelming damage for what they are it feels so bad to spend so long firing a rocket launcher at level 100 enemies when i could whip out any melee and kill them much quicker
I put 5 forma on a opticor vandal and I'd rather use a 2 forma'd melee
Yeah, I love the Kuva Ogris paired with Mag's 2, but I still have trouble with the dmg output and that makes me so sad
Primaries and secondaries need some kind of scaling to be honest, to be able to compete.
When a dagger is stronger than a Rocket launcher it’s time to re balance weapons
Fair point about heavy primaries. I’ve been maining Fulmin for quite some time, but since StPath came out, my new 54% Heat Kuva Nukor w CC+CD riven buffed by Crit-Cat, 300% dmg buff Arcane precision and the pistol fire rate arcane now comes on the top, even above the Crit zaw dokrham riven build. So.. it depends how u mod them. The rest of melee compared to critzaw seem underwhelming or slow.
The talk around 50:00 minutes about "If you don't have this specific thing or haven't done this before, get out", just reminds me of D1 raids, where it was "No Gjallarhorn = kicked"
that's pretty common for most mmo's
ff14 has the same issues
Very, very common thing.
Yes god forbid people farming want efficiency. There is a time and a place for standards. Gear checks is for endgame content in several games is one. I dont know why people get upset. I've been denied until I got better in other games. Would you grind scarlet spear with mesa that couldn't use her 4 well(for the railjack side) for heavy grinding I doubt it because it will double your playtime. People need to learn to get over rejection.
Keep in mind gally got nerfed and they addressed that problem thankfully
@@xenosayain1506 you sound like a asshole
I really like using primaries/secondaries. Actually aiming and headshotting someone is satisfying in itself.
If they removed melee headshots and ramped up the headshot multiplier to be 10x stronger (example, pick an appropriate number) there would be a reason to aim and use guns.
I also prefer pure gun and mixed gun/melee combat over pure melee combat. Spamming E with one of my various broken unga sticks of choice just isn't compelling enough for me, even though it's the best strategy.
SOOOOO SATISFYING to headshot braindead bullet sponges. Such an engaging and challenging game! (obvious sarcasm)
Sraye who are you and does your mother know that you’re on the computer without permission? 😂
David Fraser Harrow Mains: *aggressive breathing*
Yeah I agree. I love doing survivals in Steel Path but it just feels like my primary and secondary are more of a utility than a weapon
Warframe balances the game like there's a pvp mode for them to break lol
Also yea melee is just objectively the best but consistently you see DE nerf primaries and secondaries that dare enter that realm of damage lol
Just played Conclave for the first time ever the other day. It was neat I guess, but fighting my friend got boring quickly
And that's good. Primary/secondary TTK is good and satisfying, melee weapons are TOO GOOD.
@@hedgeyes6411 how many primary weapons without rivens are good in the later half of steel path? 10? 15? Out of the literal 200+ we have?
Let's back track from steel path. I would say a good 66% of the primary weapons in the game are MR fodder. Explain why that's okay in a game that clearly prides itself on build diversity and customization
@@alextheloud It's not. Those 10-15 are out of line and should be gutted.
I want to play Vermintide or Killing Floor except I can do quadruple aerial backflips and punch people in half. I can't do that because there are no enemies for me to punch in half because they instantly die before I can even have the punch connect. Ergo, nerf the weapons and abilities that make them die too fast.
Other people want to basically let the game play itself and are allergic to the concept of effort. These people get very mad at the very suggestion of having to look at the screen while they play and want everything buffed so that they can go back to not playing the game and have 100% of all content be functionally identical.
These two groups can't coexist. I explicitly want the people who play Warframe for "the power fantasy" to stop playing Warframe. I want their """fun""" actively removed from the game. It's garbage and I hate it.
@@hedgeyes6411 if that's how you want the game to be, why even equip mods. Just go do a 3 hour mot survival with no weapon mods lol
Warning Sign:
"I can use them for a change of pace."
Vazarin was a "change of pace" - Now everyone can heal objectives significantly better by throwing out an Ancient Healer specter.
Xoris was a "change of pace" - We saw what happened there.
Liches were a "change of pace" - I hated them at launch, and now they're just used to get weapons for MR.
Railjack was a "change of pace" - I liked it at launch but it was unreliable.
Vazarin is actually a legit choice you gotta make and xoris release was a fix to a bug they themselves introduced 2 mainline patches ago when exalted melee no longer counts as melee for some fucking reason when it comes to combo counter (and then nerf because muh riven plat mafia).
Vazarin was gutted :(
Also on the Eidolon / Tridolon Runs, since they are so heavily time-gated, no one wants to bother to take new players with them, because it's inefficient and will cost you literally an hour of your time.
Like in order to get into Eidolon / Tridolon Runs, you need to either have a friend who bares with you until you have the more bearable amp OR you grind the first Eidolon over and over until you can get better AMP all by yourself.
At that point farming for platinum is just more effective, and with that, you just go out and buy the arcanes you need.
Srsly stupid to lock players out of grinding in a game about grinding because of time gates.
Seriously I will never understand why they just didn't give you the 111 Amp to start rather than the trash fire that is the Mote Amp. It is such an astronomical difference in damage to Eidolons.
I've always felt that Eidolon hunts should be literally half of the time on Cetus and the day should be half as well.
The day/night cycle is garbage, there's almost nothing valuable during the day. Too many things are only available at night and you basically get one hour every two hours to get anything good done. And if you only have a limited amount of time to play well then fuck you.
I don't get why they don't just put a cap on how many eidolons you can do in a day and just make it equal to or slightly more than what the top players are able to do and then remove the time limit. Experienced players still get the same amount of rewards and less experienced players don't have to stress about the clock.
Also they should really have a higher mr requirement eidolon hunts so that new players don't wander into them by accident. I feel bad for them, it's not their fault that the game left a door to a somewhat complex fight on the fucking starter planet wide open. But new player experience is something that needs a lot of work even without taking eidolons into account...
@@toxicancient1887 This. They literally should just have a daily game mode of Kill the eidolon/tridolon. Where your only allowed to kill X amount of them but it’s enough to where the Pro’s can have their old experience, but also allow newer players to learn Eidolons.
This wouldn’t change arcanes as they’re basically treated like candy and thrown around now. All this would do is increase people playing Plains and Eidolon hunts, since most people always go for Murmur in recruiting nowadays.
with umbra i think it would be really cool if when you don't have him equipped, he would be chilling somewhere on your ship, like sitting in your quarters listening to music
Or playing shawzin if you bought one.
@@frostknight7687 but well. I don't him playing it as badly as I do
Melee is just simply too powerful for no reason. Ive recently been helping a couple of friends new to the game and one of the things i constantly hear from them is they dont like using all these random dogshit weapons and that melee is the only thing that actually does anything. Its quite bizarre.
My guess is that melee is more powerful to counter the fact you need to get closer to the enemy and as such you're more vulnerable to damage, however impact procs and the sheer power of the weapon killing enemies so quickly prevents that danger from even existing most of the time.
It's better than when melee was terrible. But I guess DE only deals in extremes. Op or trash
"too powerful for no reason" in a PvE game does not compute
Is melee actually too strong? if you nerf melee then all you would do in steel path is nukor the enemies then the nukor would be too strong and that gets nerfed and every weapon would be shit
Flip your thinking. guns are too fucking weak for no reason.
51:00 the reason why it's so toxic is because they're time gated. You are limited in how often you can do them so you want them done efficiently. Removing that time gate would remove that toxicity.
How is it toxic though. It is a simple gear check and your rejected if you fail. Is it toxic if I'm looking for a certified electrician and I turn down someone who doesn't? That is where that logic goes. Harassing and message spamming over if can be considered toxic. That is going out of your way to go after someone. Some rejection is just that. People need to be able to get over rejection.
@@xenosayain1506 that mentallity is literally the reason why majority of new players leave lmao
@@SonOfHubris why would new players be doing high lvl content requiring advanced gear?
@@xenosayain1506 its not aboit high level contet, its about learning, u cant learn if u dont play it first and u cant play it because people want a specific thing, plus thats where all of the toxic people are
@@SonOfHubris you say that like the dont have a wealth of resources at their fingertips. Online videos, other new/intermediate players, build guides online, ways of queuing for groups.
The arguement provided is for players trying to do something specific. So therefore specific requirements are preferred. By the logic your providing it doesnt matter what your doing, what level the content is, or the players needs. Just kowtow to anyone who says help like they saryn a self sufficient human being unable to attain knowledge without it being handed to them. Sorry to say it but I expect more out of ppl. If they have 20 minutes to complain a group farming a specific item that requires specific buikds says no. They can use that 20 minutes to look up what they need and where to get it.
DE needs to sit down and have an honest, screw feelings discussion regarding the game's balance with a bunch of min/maxers, or anyone that has a good grasp on the game's mechanics.
DE is under the wrong impression that Primaries and Secondary weapons are better than Melee damage wise, and focuses their nerfs on them, yet there are primary weapons that SHOULD be stronger than many melee weapons but aren't.
Your last point just isnt true. A single cut from a sword not through a vital organ is much more deadly than a single bullet not fired at a vital organ. The problem is thst melee weapons are just better for group clear and guns are pretty much just one at a time pop pop pop. The big issue with balancing this is how the enemies in this horde shooter act vs how we the players act and move. Unfortunatly making the ai smarter changes what the game is and its a hard hill to climb.
@@thedarkness125
"A single cut from a sword not through a vital organ is much more deadly than a single bullet not fired at a vital organ." how is this relevant in any way whatsoever lol
@@thedarkness125 So the issue is that the AI makes using melee more efficient because the enemies either rush you or just stand and shoot you?
Yeah, that makes sense
Idk they seem to be nerfing the shit out of all melee rivs that see any use at all.
Agree i still remember how terrible is zarr and still is like that, i single swipe with a pole or any melee deal more damage than it.
DE has consistently decided to lean far more into Warframe being a horde shooter, while not balancing much of anything around that. Most of the new game modes/content DE adds nowadays focuses on killing hordes and hordes of enemies, but most weapons are best at killing single or small groups of enemies. It’s why weapons/abilities that can kill larger groups are so dominant. DE could add less horde focused content to balance this out, or totally change the design of their weapon systems. I would prefer they didn’t change it, I love using Bows and short range melee weapons, but I rarely bring them to the most meaningful content because they just don’t do well enough against hordes
they should add innate punchthrough to a lot of the "single target" weapons
It’s the modding, melee modding is insane.
yup, the mods available for melee + the combo system is insanely better than anything available for primary or secondary weapons. That's why I usually only bring them as status affliction weapons.
ZSSD Founder same.
Bloodrush, weeping wounds, berserker, condition overload and combo counter ofc
I think we need the equivalent of stance mods for primaries.
@@this_is_japes7409 Um... _no._
I feel like a big issue with the more organized fights like eidolons is that they are completely separate from the regular enemies so they will always be minmaxed to hell because there's no reason to build for anything else when you want to kill them
While that is true Profit Taker had so many adds (That were not scaled to the fact that there was a boss also present) when it first launched that it was impossible to stay alive with any frame AND manage to do the arbitrary time gate at the end. DE needs to get a grip on what they want the game to be, you cant have a hord shooter if you make the enemys 50x harder to kill while also only needing to cough in your general direction to kill you
@@cherryrook8684 Orb Vallis enemies are garbage to fight in general even without the ridiculous damage with how much knockdown that they have, so when you have a giant boss with weapons that kill you instantly and no way to CC or otherwise disable them, and like a hundred enemies on the ground that can also kill you instantly if you're not playing a frame with straight up invincibility, you get a very annoying boss battle. Not to mention the having to use your clunky ass archgun but euhg... that's a whole other issue.
Also I don't know if other people have this issue I can barely see anything in the orb vallis because of how bright the stupid snow is. Having dozens of enemies constantly beaming down from orbit in a fight where you have to constantly be moving to dodge the boss's rockets and barely being able to see because everything is super bright is the least enjoyable kind of clusterfuck. Generally horde shooters use a lot of contrast so you can easily identify the enemies even at a fast pace where it might be difficult to see details.
I would like to see more podcasts, where you bring in other Warframe youtubers and talk about thing's that would make the game better or what they enjoy how they started etc. Love your content and how you always stay honest.
Alernative title: "Another hour of creaming over Hek" :)
you don't?
vay hek?
I mean they tried to nerf the bronco's dizzying shot just cause it made you able to finisher to death enemies. Despite that not being op in anyway they still tried to nerf it.
Now add 50 energy, and you get infinite invisibility AND those absurd finishers
@@kairu_aname if you use arcane trickery which most of us don’t even bother.
What i would love is if they could stop releasing new weapons and then nerfing the shit out of them after i put 2-4 days of work into them.
Yeesssss
Imagine loving gas so much you farmed and formad a bunch of weapons just for how they lend themselves to gas builds... I was expecting a faction mod change, hell I'd like to see them reworked entirely, but this is just strange.
This, i can't refund the hours from my life that I put into a weapon because DE treats the game like a pvp and the de apologist accept these changes
If adult operators end up being a thing which exists after plains of duviri, maybe primaries have a use if they can use them?
Maxed out operators actually bring a lot of options, putting a decent gun on top of that might make them worth investing into over melle.
I feel like harder group content that requires varies enemy designs would be good too
Need to approach a fight with heavy single target and some back up aoe?
Need to balance CC and mechanics?
Need to go hard on AoE?
They just need more interesting mission/boss designs
I agree. They need to do some serious updates on the mission types. Most of them are largely ignored unless forced to do them (i.e. Spy, Sab, etc.). The rewards just aren't there.
they could simply make enemies that are expecialised to counter warframe abilities or resistance to abilities
Yea, they would need to fix the general ai/enemy design problem first, but most missions imo need to be revamped with enemies that you need to bring a specific answer for the situation at higher tiers in the star chart, or training wheel enemies at lower tiers
@@yokai1235 yes. Everyone is all about enemy level and ai. But the real solution is simply the enemy designs need to change and be updated. Most of these enemies we face were developed face warframes when warframe first came out. Back when warframes could only use one or two abilities and spamming abilities was much harder. Since then warframes have gotten numerous buffs and changes but the enemies have never gotten such treatment
@@nicholasfitzgerald585 exactly, revamping the ai won't do much when most of the enemies we face can be perms CC'd, one shot, face tanked, or mind controlled as soon as we turn the corner, warframes have just gotten to strong and have a consistent stream of energy and ammo and we still fighting the same 3 or 4 grunts and maybe two different heavies that we have been since we got out of the tutorial
so we had gears of warframe, we have dynasty warframe, I think it's time for doomframe.
Imo the #1 game for them to study rn. It remembers the pillars of shooters, movement, target prioritization and weapon counters are everything, these people could make the most basic shooter fun cause they understand what makes meaningful gameplay flow, it doesn't even have to be hard.
The problem is the damage. Just think about it. You have to slice your enemy once with a Reaper Prime, but you have to put 100 shots in a corpus boi on the steel path with Soma Prime. What's the point?!
Damage and Level Scaling
Status, safety, and long range engagement. There is an easy to see "point" to them its just how much value you put on that point.
Range engagement is irrelevant in this game apart from open world and infested but even with infested you would kill them much faster with your melee than a gun
@@emwZEEK Range engagement is basically non-existent in WF because u can either bullet jump or void dash that covers hundreds of meters within half a sec (which is LONGER than all gun weapon damage fall off). At this point it is almost always faster to jump in and melee dudes compare to shooting, except open world (even then you can probably just archwing and melee heavy slam on ground that kills everything).
@@alexalexzhemail7166 Non existent is not the right word. Guns still have more usage time than melee generally speaking. You can say non-optimal if you want but it definitely exists. And when i say long range i am talking about down a hallway or the other end of a room around 40 meters max.
At around 29:00 when you were talking about the integration and deintegration of Lua spy into the sorties: Thing is, the entirety of warframe is just "kill as much as possible, as fast as possible and keep moving". A spy mission requires you to stop moving and think for a bit, which is not like the rest of the game, which revolves around deleting hordes of enemies with a click of a button, and using your brain capacity equivalent to being in a coma. My point is that when the game pretty much teaches you that the best offense is a good offense, you will of course find it annoying to carefully search the environment and look for a path.
Bro when he pulled out the Chug Jug I lost it
It's a baby sippy cup, Brozime's just smol.
make eydelons summonable any time of day with no time limit and I would do them, I hate feeling rushed to get x done before daybreak
Zim Zimmerman Brozime mentioned a long time ago that when you summon them during day it should be something like a total eclipse so the eidolon rises thinking it’s night
@Legendarysuper SavageRocklee Eidolons barely get any play anymore aside from hardcore arcane farmers.
@Legendarysuper SavageRocklee considering how far prices for those have dropped, and hoe its easier to farm plat I really doubt people still go out to farm arcanes so much so that there are literally tons of groups out when night comes around. Also theres also tedium that makes people eventually not wanna do things like eidolons.
Your toxic according to brozime. How dare you want efficiency.
@@XyTeRx you should check warframe.market statistics chart before saying that their price has dropped.
They have almost doubled the last few months and they continue rising, their prices dropped when there were more people farming them during the covid quarantine.
Now you can do a tridolon in 10 minutes and possibly get a 45p arcane, 15p with bad luck, making it one of the best plat farms in the game, but also the most expensive and difficult to play if you wanna do more runs per night.
Like the OP I still wish we could fight tridolons during day.
The fact that melees get stances is insane. I need like 2 or 3 less forma for my melees.
THIS
not true, with the amount of primed mods that melees have most builds are going to be 4+ forma
@@nolandbeyond8890 i think you missed the point though. melees can be so much more powerful than primaries or secondaries with much less forma. in fact, you didn't just miss the point. your comment directly supported the point while being worded in opposition to it.
i feel like it's kind of an Almost design choice due to melees and frames both having mods that can directly increase capacity for free while also having umbral mods, something like an umbral serration would be very difficult to fit into a build without a stance or aura mod type thing to increase slots
but both of these things had very different release dates so this is probably just a later decision
Problem is that the melees getting overbuffed over time. Before they were just last use weapons when your primary was out of ammo or you needed to relaod, and the melee slot was used for utility of coptering as well. Primaries you usually had AOE weapons and 2ndaries didn't really have any AOE back in the day, but had good single target smgs/pistol weapons for DPS.
I think its mainly that melee have more avenues of boosting their base damage. Primaries ususaly have no scaling means, so even when they have amazing damage (which is rare) they will be overtaken. A primary weapon will usualy get close to yellow crits, and only very specific examples can reach orange crits, and even then, rarely. Their base damage tend to be between 20 to 100 damage per shot, compared to melee which can have above 1k base damage, and they can actually reach consistent red crits. Again, the reason why redeemer prime is the best primary in the game is because of its high base damage, infinite ammo, and various ways of scaling up, plus it bypasses the soft invulnerabilities of many enemies to projectile and explosive weapons.
Warframe is a massive mess to be fair, I don't think the game will ever be that balanced.
thats what i thought its broken beyond repair
@@yahyamusseb I don't agree that it's broken beyond repair, but that said the time investment would also be so high to go over everything and put some serious thought into how weapons and progression should be rebalanced, that they would just have to stop releasing content for a good several months and there's no way they would do that.
Like yahya said, broken beyond repair, trying to fix it would break the prime pillar of corruption that de depend on to maintain the game (rivens).
I've just found your channel and have binged a load today while playing Warframe. I've just come back from the first time since 2016 and I notice a lot of progression systems seem a bit busted as you mentioned.
The main issue I'm having is eidolons though. I understand that players don't want some noob with a mote amp slowing them down on 3 eidolon runs. But it's still not easy when the progression of that whole system is "Do eidolons, get better amp, do more eidolons" but you can't realistically smash out an eidolon run with a mote amp. So, in reality, the progression is "leech off some players with good gear, build better amp, be a contributing member of the squad and help"
Meanwhile at DE: "Let's nerf the only good primary weapon for the 30th time." wink wink, Kuva Bramma, wink.
Primaries and secondaries should exist that can kill enemies 1 at a time fast af.
Killing 1 enemy at a time isn't a problem for balance in warframe. It's aoe and abilities that can trivialize content. So I always felt rifles need a buff.
Yeah but the problem is how? AoE weapons used to be weak and everyone complained so they got buffed.
They kinda already do, its just the damage when not going for a crit headshot weapon is just "slightly"/1 mod slot too low. If you took the tigris prime, reduced its ammo pool to 14, but made its status chance the promised value (25% per pellet aka 90% per shot probability/3x30% it had) with a innate passive of "slash is always weighted 80%" it would wreck enemies just as it did with half its duplex shot instead of taking 4 bullets/shots to kill proper enemies. Same way for the vhek, give its on hit stagger a power increase to the full on enemy stumbling animation and passive of 80% extra total damage vs staggered enemies, etc.
Or just buff guns by around 60-70% base damage. while doing the ammo pool reduction.
I THOROUGHLY ENJOYED this talk on Twitch, and can here to leave that sweet sweet Thumbs up. 👍🏽 Dan Olson-Esque game-design theory discussions like this are one of many reasons why I enjoy watching BroZime.
The problem is so deepbaked into the games core: Its an issue of the damage types, the enemy design, how we deal damage. I feel like a whole enemy overhaul is in place. We have way too many enemies who just shoot you without having anything special about them.
A game in a similar vein that had way better enemy variety was Mass Effect 3s Multiplayer
An enemy/mission rework really needs to be the next popular thing to catch on in the community because it could address a lot of issues without directly nerfing anything.
Zime really doesn’t like to be wrong.
1 thing for me atleast is to make all weapons have 1 meter of punch through with weapons like the optic or being much higher like maybe 3-5
Certain weapons should have like a shrapnel effect on enemies to cause splinter damage on impact damaging nearby enemies also applying status
Another thing I wondered is if something like weapon channeling could work where you can have like a temporary damage boost using either energy or more ammo to give a beefy damage boost to each shot almost like the battacor idk
I saw a post on the reddit of someone who cleared the entire steel path using only the Stug, so there's that lol XD
I feel like they probably used octavia or other power heavy frames and said they did it with only a stug. Do it with Inaros only and I'll be impressed.
What frame where they using?
@@darrylferguson3622 thier post said Mainly Hyldrin but they did use a mix of Chroma and some others depending on the mission type.
@@Cafinebiased sheild frame can do alot of damage with her abilties
The power fantasy aspect has was fun. Was. Turns out being an all powerful god of death gets boring when there's nothing able to challange you. So much so that [DE] had to design enemies that are immune to or disable your kit for SOME semblance of balance.
IMO there's several gameplay aspects that ruin challenge:
1. Abilities have no cooldown - All you have to do is spam your biggest aoe CC or Damage skill (Well damage less so because it gets outscaled pretty quick unless you're playing the few frames not designed in 2009). You get to have your buffs up 100 % of the time. Speed, damage resist, damage boosts.
2. Energy economy - Leading from my first point, energy is too easy to get, abilities have no thought process to use. "Is x CC/Buff about to run out? Press y"
3. Weapon Mods - Whoever decided that weapon mods should be stat increases needs to be replaced. Mods should have been like augments. All mods should have the ability to alter your weapon in some way. A bonus and a cost (in spirit of the corrupted mods).
4. Enemy AI and competence - All group in a tunnel for easy cleaves. No serious attempts at cover, flanks. No big threats or "OH SHIT" moments. Ever played Mass Effect 3? Remember seeing a Banshee or Phantom? Or Deep rock galactic's Bulk detonator. The closest we have is stalker. And when's the last time you didn't one shot him or panic when he arrived.
5. FUCK RIVENS
I have been playing warframe since stamina was a thing. Sure the game was slower then, but we have been power creeping ever since.
To your point 2, you should remember that's the way the game used to be if you really have been playing since Stamina was a thing. Do you not remember the constant complaining about it until the devs finally relented and added in things like energize? The way energy is now is the only reason some warframes have the kit that they do so there's not really any going back to how things were.
@@Ashendal Yeah, we had something called Trinity. Had one in every squad. I still remember the "eV" "EV" "Use EV" "ev plz" spam in chat. She had 2 uses, both eclipsed by Arcane energise and Magus repair. Now trinity is pretty much only used in defection where she, OH! Trivialises the mode by bypassing the node management with a 100% heal whenever you need it.
I am not saying its a bad thing that energy is easy to come by. I am saying abilities need to be gated either by energy management or cooldowns. What we have now isn't healthy for a game. Ease of access to health and 'mana' trivializes anything
But then it wouldn't be warframe anymore now would it?
@@shaheedk.3386 So only cooldowns then, because we're not getting energy management back. Which is just going to lead to people like Brozime complaining about not being able to use abilities to clear fodder enemies "efficiently" or how abilities "suck" because they don't do "enough" damage and now have arbitrary cooldowns attached and we're back to where we were with energy. Pandora's box was opened years ago and there's no fixing what happened without a ground up redo of all abilities in the game and that's both not happening because DE won't spend that much effort and the usual suspects would shout that it would hurt the game.
That's the overarching issue. One group doesn't want a balanced game because they think that is what makes warframe a "power fantasy" and the rest just get yelled over when we bring up issues with that mentality. For everything Brozime gets right about the game his obsession with "why can't I just one shot everything" that shows up sometimes prevents him from seeing why he gets so much wrong.
Brozime doesn't seem to get that there's tons of difficult 'power fantasy' games. Devil May Cry 5 being the easiest to point out. EVERY SINGLE PART OF THE GAME is built around making the player feel amazing and powerful.... but you can screw it up and fail hard.
hell yeah my favorite warframe creator posted!!! Brozime posted too neat.
jk you are my favorite
This aged super well with the primary arcanes being added
And the incarnons.
This was really fun to listen to while doing Xini myself haha. Please do more of these!
Yikes the bit about “leaving from lack of challenge” got me. I was one of those people who adored raids, and sherpa’d raids often. I enjoyed the challenge offered by speed runs and coordination of raid groups.
It took me two years after their removal to leave (around October/November of 2019), but I had been tapering off for a long time, with my friends and I trying to do stupid challenges to keep ourselves in the game. Summer of 2018 saw us doing runs of 1 hr index for Prodman posters every day leading up to Fortuna’s release.
I know that Warframe’s game design has focused more and more on the power fantasy. But while it is fun to delete hoards of enemies, the skill stagnancy I now associate with the game just makes it feel...pointless. It’s painfully evident in the weapon system, where it doesn’t really matter what weapon you use or how skillfully you play with it, it’ll perform all the same. There’s no inherent benefit to skillful play. Most of my former raid team have moved on to other games due to the this very problem.
I can agree that melee is just objectively better than guns, but I still prefer guns because they're just more fun to me. With guns, I'm aiming, I'm getting headshots, I'm hearing the "bang," or "boom" of the gun, and the enemy dies. It's satisfying. Now melee can be fun, but it gets repetitive after a while, and it's a lot of spamming "E." ... also, I main Harrow, and he kinda prefers the shooty-shooty, so I may be a bit biased. :P
To be fair, nothing made me happier in this game than taking a year break and coming back to slicing enemies in half with a katana.
@@robbyhenton8038 To each his own, I just like guns. :P
One thing I really hate about Melee weapons is the completely fake depth to them. They boast a combo system and movesets but all you do is just mash the button while either standing or running depending on stance/situation. They try to don the guise of a character action game like DMC or Bayo but it's simply not there and will never be there. Fucking Halo Energy Swords and CoD Knives have more depth to them.
All the combo system does is create that huge gap between melees and non-melees and all the movesets do is overwhelm new players into thinking they need to do ACTUAL combos.
man talk about hyperbolic
Man I have been repeating that argument but all I ever get back is "noooo you have to get close to the enemy so its balanced." Its not really a "combo system" if the combo goes up by pressing a single button.
The old "Mortal Kombat" style combo system was *horrible* because it required exact timing of pauses, while the pause time depended on the attack speed of the weapon, and had no visual feedback that you were in a combo. A QTE-style system with onscreen prompts would have fixed that, but then people would have complained about QTEs - the "mercy kill" prompt we have at the moment (which only flashes up for half a second just before the enemies die anyway) is barely tolerable because of how rarely we need to mercy kill (except for liches, where the prompt is persistent).
@@oohshiny8713 Yeah I'm not really asking for a "real" combo system anyway, I just think that Warframe's overall game design just doesn't work out for engaging melee combat.
I should be able to take my rifle into any match and stay for a long time just as I would with a melee.
That guy sounds bias towards melee. What's the point of having all those primaries and secondaries and not be able to take them into hard content. Not everyone wants to be constantly spamming the melee button. THEY NEED A BUFF!
Another thing that invalidates guns: warframes go goddamn fast. Fast to the point where you could just bullet jump at an enemy while pressing E and kill it just as quickly as shooting it
To the idea of something clearing a mission, unmodded stug can clear every kill mission, you're just gonna take forever. It's more about not wasting time.
Exactly this. This is a farming game. Do it fast or you’re just wasting time.
Do I give a crap if the Paris Prime can kill when it has draw time and only kills one enemy at a time?
F that, I’ll just Broken Bull through the mob.
In my experience, when new players get the Broken War they just never use a primary or secondary again until they can grab Ignis Wraith and/or Atomos/Kuva Nukor. Because Broken War is whats going to be actually viably killing stuff pass Uranus without them expending farming effort/plat on more potatoes and Forma, which they barely understand the importanceb by that time, since it also requires orokin cell farming which only long time players have enough of
When scarlet spear dropped i was so happy because we had 90% of eidolon hunters being toxic, i did not run them hard but i had everything the meta wanted but everyone always would be 1M caps or you suck, and due to that i stayed away from eidolons completely. Now no one wants to run them any more as much and i love it
Same lol.
Da Build, in terms of investment, with a few exceptions is 5 polarities on a primary, and 5 polarities again on a pistol, although pistols can have a “fully functional” build on 2 polaritIes and rifles need 1-2 as well
Melee fits the max build on 3 polarities, starts with more, and downscales better to fit more powerful builds with less investment
This relates to the subtopic around 45:00 where zime talks about investment, melee needs less investment, wants less investment, and is better
Polarities need a shakeup. 90% of useful mods on regular guns and melee are V polarity, 9% are Dash and, for D polarity you have Cold Damage and Drifting Contact.
Gotta say, most of the time I agreed with Freezer. Brozime has some good points, but weapons aren't a binary good or bad. If a weapon can complete content within a reasonable amount of effort than it isn't bad, it may not be good, but it isn't bad.
I think probably the best thing they could do is design enemies with resistances to weapon types and, in that, create weapon roles. The Nox, for example, pretty much asks for a gun because of the accuracy requirement. Most other enemies are taken out with a melee. They could make Eximus enemies, for example, have just an innately high damage resistance to melee weapons, but a damage multiplier to primary weapons. (Compared to "low ammo, high damage" suggestion, that also keeps things like Shotgun Only or Melee Only sorties from being very, very arduous or ammo-hungry)
That same sort of thing can also apply to AoE weapons so that single-target weapons have their own effective niche, even if they're only used occasionally because players cleave through most everything else with melee. That also means gun-lovers can bring one AoE weapon for fodder, one single-target weapon for heavy targets, _and_ things like the Bramma can be tweaked back up in their utility (so not quite so nerfed in ammo count, for example) without skewing balance too much. Because, sure, it deals a lot of damage, but those heavy units will be able to eat it.
Given the power levels we're working in, the resistance mechanic may need include something atypical like "health-gating" when using an AoE or a melee weapon that single-target weapons bypass, to ensure higher TTK with those large-reach weapons. A melee may still probably be able to get through something like that quite quickly, _but_ it won't be as quick as pulling a rifle and bipping the enemy in the head or shoulder. (Knees and toes~) You'd definitely feel the difference, no matter the size of the numbers thrown out.
And I think, with health-gating resistances on AoE weapons and multipliers on single-target weapons, it'd create a healthy niche for both across the level spectrum. Not something like 90% damage resistance that might only make a tangible difference at level 110+ because of the damage we output, nor something like "everything ends up super tanky so rely on your melee anyway because it doesn't matter" (why I include the multiplier part - don't just rely on discouraging AoE, encourage single-target weapons too). It may not _guarantee_ balanced use of the two kinds of weapons, but it encourages it, doesn't force it, and IMO provides a decent change of feel even if you hack-and-slash for the entire mission, because you feel it when you run into those heavy enemies.
That's just me, though. I do think trying to rely on damage numbers wouldn't work very well. We could have 30x the damage on low-ammo weapons, but for the vast majority of content, you're still one-shotting everything and melee does it best from that pure numbers perspective. You could redesign that content but at that point, you're basically buffing everything and then buffing enemies to match (and then dealing with the problems of modding for the new players building up their equipment). There's a more straightforward solution.
TL;DR Idea is:
1. Give heavy enemies health-gating that applies to AoE weapons (melee, explosives...)
2. Give single-target weapons multiplier bonuses on those heavy enemies, on top of bypassing the health gating
3. Trying to muck with the plain numbers probably won't work for the damage we output.
The thing that is needed are missions that only have sparse heavy enemies with more complex interesting mechanics instead of just damaged health and armor
I would just add a Combo System for Primaries and Secondaries that's just the Sniper Combo System. Heavily rewarded for consecutive hits, but heavily penalized for missing. Now Guns aren't "Oonga Boonga" like Melee, but that's because they have a higher risk/reward and a limited way to deal damage.
Guns now scale per bullet, each hit adding to the counter, with Headshots counting for 2x the score and misses removing the counter. Snipers really don't have many scaling issues, and any that would arise from this could easily be fixed by introducing more Primed Mods to their inventory. The idea now is that Guns build up Combo incredibly fast and hit quite hard, but don't last that long due to their ammo nerfs.
Weapons that would obviously be buffed the hell out of due to this could easily be fixed with a few tweaks. Broz already suggested a nerf to Shotgun ammo (and ammo in general I'd assume), so let's start with that. Launchers already have reduced ammo, so let's make it so Headshots don't award extra score, but that's compensated by the fact that you can hit more enemies at once (now missing with Launchers is also seriously punishing, and I'm sure you can add to it by making Staggers reduce it as well). Make Shotguns only scale through kills for example, and I'm sure the system would work fine, even if you have to personalize each weapon archetype specifically. Maybe Assault Rifles ramp up the Combo faster based on how many consecutive hits you get, making Fire Rate, Reload Speed and Punch-Through more valuable on them, but now they decay much quicker to incentivize constantly hitting foes? These are of course just suggestions, but you can still have a similar Combo System to Snipers without necessarily ripping it off.
Why not bring up the fact that this can be a massive boon to Warframes that use Exalted Primaries and Secondaries as well? I'd maybe just make it so they can't increase the Counter itself unless they get kills, that way Warframes like Ivara or Mesa that do somewhat struggle as the levels rise (yes, there are Warframes that allow them to circumvent this, the idea here would be to make it so those Warframes aren't necessarily required anymore, but only if you can get more kills) don't have such issues. If this were implemented I'd gladly take a nerf to Mesa if she were to somehow become a problem, I'd love to aim her 4 manually for example if they deemed the "aimbot" mechanic to be far too much with such a change, but I imagine that's up to DE in the end. Though, again, this may have to be drastically tweaked between each Warframe, Hildryn with her 1 Augment comes to mind as a possible flaw in this kind of system, however, I would gladly take nerfs in some respects if that meant the system as a whole was more beneficial to Guns.
Broz also brought up the idea of specific enemies needing Guns (or just Melee) to be killed, and I'd have to say I agree. The more variety we have with our enemies, the more limitations are imposed on us, the better we'll have to be to combat them. There are quite a few enemies like this already, but it's not like giving us more "weak spot" enemies is a bad thing if done correctly. Why not have a Corpus unit that staggers you if you Melee it, but shuts down when you blow out the orbs flying around it giving it said Shield? Keep them low enough so Melee can still work in case of an emergency, but incentivize using your Gun by making them higher than normal.
There are other ways to increase the value of Guns without directly buffing them, and Mods are a good alternative. For argument's sake, I think when most people say "guns suck", they're more specifically referring to Rifles or Arch-Guns, as at least for me, every other Gun type I've used hasn't missed the mark nearly as bad as these weapons have. They lack a strong assortment of Primed Mods, their Base Damage is so low that Sentient enemies completely ignore them, their Fire Rate is usually jacked way up so you run out of bullets quite often, the list goes on. Maybe DE should try to buff the outliers first before trying to overhaul the whole system?
You may as well nerf ammo economy across the board for all weapons, especially when it comes to Carrier. His Ammo Crate ability really should have a longer pause in-between ammo, as it currently trivializes most ammo limitations. I would just compensate for this by making it so ammo drops are now much rarer, but instantly refill your ammo pool when you pick them up, maybe make it so Melee Kills and/or Mercy Kills drastically increase this chance. Now you have less drop spam, and if you're really in need of Ammo, why not bring Protea or loot frames like Nekros? Give Loot Warframes (and the idea of ammo resupply) more of a solid Supportive use outside of pure Resource gains, especially the Loot Augments some of these Warframes have.
Why not look towards the future with this concept as well? Melee Weapons are supposed to receive the whole "Limit Break" thing later on to replace Channeling, why not add it to Guns as well? While it's active make it so you receive ammo for each kill, maybe have it increase reload speed for every kill, the list goes on. I'd speak more about this kind of system, but I have no idea what it entails (or if it's still even coming), so I'm just going to passively mention it.
Sorry for the wall of text, but I think if folks are going to suggest these kinds of changes, they're going to have to be specific and offer quite a bit of evidence. Unfortunately with changes like these, I see far too many people claiming Guns are weak and stating they need to be on par with Melee Weapons, without offering substantial evidence or some way to convince DE. DE inherently feels Guns need to be weaker than Melee, if Bramma and the recent AoE nerfs are any indication, so we're going to have to try a bit harder to convince them here.
Why the hell should you be gimping yourself with gun misses? You don't lose combo with melee misses.
The combo system as implemented in snipers as it is right now, is also horrible. You can only gain it while aiming, on top of the rapid decay speed, it entirely goes against what actual snipers are intended to reward, patience.
Plus, console players don't get to aim very well. Having half of the arsenal locked out just because of control scheme limitations is not very good.
Not to mention that combo systems only reward fast weapons and leave the heavies in the dust.
When Brozime plays Khora the entire game becomes a episode of Johnny Test
Just as an add-on to the Ivara thing. Her alt-fire cast of her 1 doesn't benefit from the 3 shot augment, but normally casting it still does.
I'm chilling on xini watching you chill on xini. Double chill.
I've been running without melee for past couple of weeks, been a lot more fun but have been falling back to AoE guns, bramma / nukor
anything that isn't AoE just isn't worth it
Aoe is faster than single target, i cant blame you.
Maybe the issue is... idk, the fact that you can one-shot everything with any weapon. Early in the game's life, none of these issues existed. Ogris had a place. Shotgun had a place. Melee had a place. Melee damage and mobility needs gutted. Armor needs gutted.
But the problem is Rivens, which is where gamebreaking stuff comes from.
Most stuff can one-shot enemies without rivens, with the current meta (heat/viral) builds.
This is why I'm subscribed to this channel ngl
It would be nice if DE would just for now either:
a) add a hidden "Primary / Secondary Weapon Damage +X00%" modifier to Steel Path or;
b) buff the base damage on all Primaries and Secondaries by X00% (and get their damage much closer to that of Melee). It wouldn't even break the new player experience - they have access to melee dealing so much damage already anyway.
Opportunity cost of any more complex changes would probably be too high. But it's nice to dream.
Coming back to this after they added the incarnons is refreshing.
Riven's should be unique effects cool effects like Syndicate mods. With one positive stat and a negative attribute, as an example, you get a Hek Riven right and it can be something like the bullets are now Lasers and it has an inate punch through of like 1.5 and the weapon no longer reloads but coolsdown if you use it too much. like a 2 or 2.5 second cooldown. So you have a positive effect and a negative effect that cant be changed like you cant just add more reload to make the cooldown faster. Then add a stat like +Heat or something. Or an Amprex Riven could be like, it now shoots balls of lightning that explode in an AOE instead of just the chain. So the fire rate becomes much lower but it adds a unique way to clear fodder enemies. Again add a stat like +Range or something. The Soma's bullets now spread more and explode on hit, +Blast.
Ok so that idea of yours sounds really good and like, would you mind it if I implement something similar to my game idea (if I ever get there)?
Mae Vixie Sure, I mean it’s something other games do, where instead of just straight up adding more stats, for really powerful weapons they add a unique aspect that changes the formula up.
@@lostclips7078 thanku
a simple thing could be to add some cool new mods, like double tap for the latron but for all weapons & primed chamber for all weapons. We need mods for guns that can replicate heavy attacks, weeping wound, blood rush and combo count.
A good start would be Double Tap. Hit a target and for 1-2 seconds you get an extra 22.5% damage (stacks 20x). Serration gives 165% damage and this new mod would give 250% when at max stacks. For weapons like the Tigris, Opticor, Vectis etc, they can't benefit from this mod but weapons like the Soma, Vipers, Supra, Gorgon etc, will benefit greatly from it.
Then another mod could be (PH) Timed Shots. +250% damage (1-3 seconds cool down, shots taken before cool down ends will reset the counter). This would be great for single shot weapons and horrible for spray and pray guns.
Mods like this would be awesome.
another idea could be a few new units who stay out of melee range
It is mainly the combo counter that gives melee so huge damage buffs and op mods like blood rush or weaping wounds that heavily add and synergize with the melee combo counter that makes melee have this insane damage output. If primary and secondary weapons would get a similar combo system i have not doubt that they would outperform melee. But on the other hand a combo system for the primarys would probably do more damage than good for the overall health of the game becaus it would completely obliterate and devaluate any type of the ordinary content De usually puts in the game. I mean with the insane damage output all weapons would be capable to do with combo systems for every weapon they would need to make level 200 or 300 enemys the base enemys in the game. And i don't think they would want to do that they will probably rather let melee weapons stand as an outlier in damage output and have steel path as an outlier type of content.
Two extra mags...so what the seer has lol. Also, I believe stances should see a balancing since all weapons have a best stance or only a single stance.
For the mighty seer
I remember way back when this game was basically; "Pick a frame you like, some weapons you like, forma if you like them a lot". Balance issue then was ability scaling, now it seems like balance is just very wonky.
it would be interesting to see a good dismemberment/disarmament mechanic as part of an enemy overhaul. it would make players being able to let them take their time and knowing how to kill say a lvl 100 heavy gunner without using Unga Bunga sword slashes. it could also be both a starting point for an overhaul of weapons and how they are used and how missions can be played. with the weapons and the disarmament overhaul, you can make weapons with specifications be able to do unique things like increasing damage the more far away you are with snipers or being able to stagger an opponent with shotgun or being able to target specific weak spots like a heavy gunners ammo belt or a moa's leg to slow it down with an auto or semi rifle. something like borderlands does with its enemies. and with the disarmament overhaul, you can also do a missions overhaul too. imagine doing an endless mission run and you would have a horde of enemies taking you on and then as time goes on, more and more rare and unique enemies would come in and the horde would get shorter and shorter. it would give players a chance to access the situation and know how to use their weapons, utilizing status procs, knowing the weakness of the enemies and how to use weapons effectively without making it to be a weapon stat stick. make it be able to be like old school monster hunter or Doom Eternal, don't make the weapon be the key and the enemies the lock, let the *player* be the key, and the enemy the lock.
I kinda like the idea of buffing primaries and secondaries, and then getting rid of weapon classes. Like maybe instead of having a broken primary with this restriction (low ammo), broken secondary with this other restriction, and then broken melee with this third restriction (way shorter range), we just have 1 weapon slot. That way each weapon has meaningful upsides and downsides and those things matter since you can't just get another weapon to offset those weaknesses.
ammo readjusment sounds like a really good idea
It'd be nice if DE made these changes but the chance of them pursuing the problem is probably 0. They need to meet their quota of one large scaled mission map "open world" and abandonware gamemode per year if they're going to continue to market their game and please their chinese shareholders. It's sad to see this game with huge potential and talented developpers go to waste and watch as they pump more new content with no concern placed on fixing the expired spaghetti code that barely holds the game together or refining the older content/mechanics that are so desperately in need of change. Quarantine was the chance to win a good chunk of this game's player base back including me but after playing for a couple weeks it's sad to see that nothing's really changed.
Why would i reload when i can just spam E.
Why would I *just* reload when I can just spam E *and* reload while doing it?
Why would I reload when I can just shoot using blades..gunblades such a cool idea but also just so overpowered with no ammo restriction
I believe that the single most broken melee mod is "Condition Overload" because once you proc a single status be it a forced proc, lifted, knockdown or just chance it's as good as "pressure point". And the moment you proc 2 statuses it blows "primed pressure point" out of the water.
A fair reduction would be to make it increase damage by 80% per status. Making it worse than pressure point up front, slightly worse than primed pressure point after 2 procs and noticeably better after 3 which is what you should aim for. And it only goes up from there. Instead of the insane 360% damage at 3 it gets 180%
The other option is to buff pressure point either with higher bonuses or more ranks and a lower base cost to maintain the progression. (With a reduction to the rank cost so that doesn't make them a waste of endo.)
The nerf option is the easiest one to do and it doesn't have many knock on effects but it's also the option that will upset the players.
Nerfs should be disguised as buffs in order to please the players. A good example is what blizzard did with rested xp BONUS vs REDUCING xp gain for extended play sessions. The results were pretty comparable but the reaction from players was very different.
What do you guys think as an endgame kinda like the steel path that has a “bar” you could set scaling infinitely/level 4000 or so that also has rewards that scale with what is set, so if someone chooses level 300 Kuva survival maybe you get 400 per capsule and if someone chooses 3000 maybe you get 2000 per cap
Me: *hears about the ivara alt fire thing* how the heck have I never heard of this i use ivara 24/7, my life is litterally a lie
Don't feel too bad. I found out by complete accident lol
It's probably in the ability tips section and I just never read it
I was like you, i found it accidentally why trying to open a riven lol
If DE reacts to this problem by nerfing melee weapons, I'll definitely quit the game. I just think they have to buff almost every primary and secondary weapons with a big update. Indeed, why aiming at heads with Soma Prime when you can destroy the entire game with your Kronen Prime without any effort ?
Some status also need to be buffed. Gas, explosive, magnetic, puncture, impact...
My idea for impact damages is : impact procs directly bypass 85% of the armor. It doesn't break it, it just ignores it. Overpowered maybe but that would be an amazing UP for a lot of weapons.
No. Shattering impact needs to be a base effect of impact as a status.
Warframe's balance in a nutshell:
I used gun, it was mildly effective...
I used secondary, it was moderately effective...
I used kill frame, it was very effective.
I used melee, it was super effective!
8:30 I disagree for the "less ammo" economy.
Nothing more boring than playing the game melee only with occasional shooting. Should just be as powerfull as melee weapons.
A "bandaid" solution could be to up the headshot dmg on ennemies. So you reward aiming a bit instead of only shooting the bodies.
Also, Bumping the spawnrate could be awesome !
I legitimately love these longer podcast vids. But I've also been just fucked out of eidolons/orbs because I couldn't do them. So I ended up learning from TH-cam and teaching other people ON THE FLY in missions. Its absolutely ridiculous.
The points about everything "needing" to be competitive and "your opinions are invalid because you haven't done X" ar so accurate. I think both stem from what Freezer said about needing to feel some kind of superiority over someone else, and it's really sad. And the worst is content gating by the players, not the game, as you said about the raids and such. Everytime there's some semblance of endgame in a game ( and by that I mean an activity thats the accumulation of most of your time in that game, aka wow raids, poe maps, etc ) players who complete that activity early turn around and gate players who come after because they didn't complete it at their time, so they must somehow be less skilled or something.
Buuuut if I was looking for efficiency in a hell of a grind, I dont want to teach. I want to do the grind and get it over with quickly. ....soooooo I'm toxic if I want people of the same skill calibur(this applies to all games not just warframe)
There is a time and a place to teach. I think when people get rejected for raids in any game they just say it's toxic cause they are salty af. Get over rejection. The world won't always accept you. Just say whatever, look for another group, and/or go solo.
. 4:06 Amprex range 18m & Ignis wrath range 27m. I don't remember melees reaching 18+ meters
pepperidge farm remembers
My plague kripath had 18 meters of range that could attack through walls for such a long time lol.
@@emwZEEK aww yes that's in the past my friend melees no longer go thru walls& Long range melees ranges got reduced
@@AtomicEy *whoosh*
For me the problem has always been that melee scales much more than the other types (except maybe sniper, but singletarget), and few people are willing to actually remove that from melee. So I think if they want to have primary/secondary, they need to give them something scaley too. Some weapons inherently has something as a feature, but others are just always at a huge disadvantage to melee just because they designed it to scale so widely. Also some features hasn't really kept up like for some reason, melee has more mod capacity while also being more powerful? :p
As a nova main I can confirm that all weapons shred, but I still only really use my Mara detron. I shoot my second twice and then boom everything in 25 meters is evaporated.
I stand with my statement that “with the correct mods, any melee is viable”
Arca Plasmor was pretty meh, but they nerfed it. Because it was "Fun" and that's not allowed.
If DE like doubled enemy damage it would force people to start tactically using cover, meaning getting into melee would be high risk high reward
Enemy damage is tripled on Mot where endurance runners like to go and it changes basically nothing
@@Brozime This is true, but I don't know if endurance runs are whpat the game should be balanced around :
A cool idea would be to add something like a core or amp that could be attached to certain primary types and would amplify it to that next level youre talking about. Maybe this attachment has like 3 unique mod slots. Probably would be rare to the order of like umbral mods or something like that, hiding behind some crazy quest that only the nutties would drag themselves through.
Ok, so I have one reason I used the min hydro cap on recruiting when I was doing tridos: I used 20+ for 4x3 runs, just coz few time I got a guy who was so sure he knew what he was doing fucked the whole run.
When a dagger is stronger than a Rocket launcher it’s time to re balance weapons
@ 1:12:00 ish - the talk about lures and whatnot. It would be great if The Quills gave you a deployable 'lure' gear item at tier 3 of their ranking to make hunts easier and give positive feedback to ranking up with them in regards to the hunting loop.
Something I've noticed is that most people still working through the star chart don't have issues with the difficulty. It's a challenge but it can be overcome with a little extra effort. And the balance issue comes up for late and end game. The people who have everything dont feel the same rush of a new weapon that a newer player does. I feel that the game does need some work but it also has a lot to do with player perception, and developer perception. Each group sees different things.
It's funny when they mentioned how infinite ammo is a thing and it reminded me when i pitched a warframe idea to rebb back in 2013. It was a trinity like frame but it would give teammates some ammo and change ammo type, then she denied the idea because "infinite ammo wouldnt give tennos a challenge". Yet here we are
The biggest problem with lures is the situation they cause where: they aren't charged, someone kills the eidolon, and you fail to capture. That's what creates the toxicity with eidolon and more so tridolon. One person being able to unknowingly fail a mission especially when you're far into it like on the second or last one, makes people hyper critical of who they play with. I play public, almost exclusively, and it really sucks to get to the end and then fail to capture. What makes that even worse is that I'm gonna have to wait about an hour to try that again, and you might not have that time. You might have work or school or kids, and so you have little free time and it hurts to feel like that time was wasted.
Ok but on the topic where we were pretending higher mr meant more power and that means you throw the old guns out, that already happens based on the standing power scale across the weapon spectrum. That’s why the term mr fodder exists.
I shouldn't have to put 4-6 forma into a weapon to make it useable. I find a lot of weapons *require* this basic forma amount to get the most mileage out of them,but by then,I honestly have better weapons to use.
a more simple answer would be to introduce many more enemies that are totally immune to melee, not just slash resistant or immune. this would force you to use other things. And this could be linked to MR so you would see less or none of these kinds of enemies when low MR and more when higher.
It sounds to me like *we need to bring back stamina*
Actual issues would be: Few melee going over the 40k dps mark, stance damage modifiers being across all attacks instead of THE static block attack (on most stances there is no point in using the static block attack)+stances still being fucky with the forward combo animation lock roots you while static combo moves you forward faster than sprinting on non-speed frames and the mentioned ammo economy with mod imbalance.
The vast majority of non shit guns on paper beat melee, massively so if you go for headshots, however they dont do it fast enough vs cleave unless aoe (tho around 2/5ths of the aoe weapons dont have the stats/are in the weaker than melee part). A drop in 60-90% of ammo pool for 1.6~1.7x base damage (or for some cases like the tigris prime, just undoing the pellet nerf and simply do what was promised in the status changes by making it 90% status probability per shot/25% status per pellet instead of the 60% it is right now) on guns wouldnt be amiss.
Dumb idea i have:
Add a combo system to primary and secondary weapons that increases with each hit shot buffing the weapon somehow and than for a reward from some steel path mission add mods like blood rush, weeping woord and condition overload mods but for primaries and secondaries
Didn’t see your post before making a similar one.
I agree that you’re on the right track.
I agree and they should the 'hunter munitions' version to secondary and a 'condition overload' for primary/secondary as well.
double tap augment and slash/viral/heat procs. We have precedence of this idea being in game.
With head shots giving 2 combo and missing dropping combo down to 0.
For some reason i find the melee in warframe to be not satisfying in any way i dont know why but for example the halo melee is just amazing in my opinion and that’s why i want primaries to be better in warframe because right now being forced to use melee is just killing variety in warframe as well
We need a MR 25 required weapon thats basically the BFG9000 and just dunks on anything in the game.
I was thinking about that whole balance thing, even more when I realized that my most used primary is a Ferrox build for throwing and the actual "gun" that I was using was the Stropha, because I can basically erase anything In my FoV.
In most of Warframe's content, AoE dmg is more important and most of the guns don't really provide it(except in cases like eidolon hunt or some niche build), and you con see that in the case of the kuva Nukor that is: easy to use, has High AoE dmg, has an good single target dmg and because it can proc a lot of status in a lot of targets is a good utility tool, And then weapons that were used to similar things became kinda obsolete, because there is a gun that can basically do it all.
And no I'm not saying that kuva Nukor should be nerfed, I think that should buff or at least adjust the others.
Sorry if I misspelled something, I'm Brazilian so english is not my main language.
More warframes that shine with primary and secondaries or exalted variants like mirage and mesa respectively need to be a thing to kinda remedy the whole melee vs primary/secondary issue. Granted it'd be just one small part of the solution, it'd help things along imo. Most warframes either buff their damage across the board (rhino, harrow, volt, etc.) or just use abilities for the sake of using abilities or CC (Grendel, Frost, etc.). I don't see enough warframes that really can use their abilities in sync with their primaries/secondaries that buffs them in a unique way.
I love these kinds of vids, although I feel I fall into that category of MR27 3k+ hours and i still don't know everything and feel silly when i hear about things like Ivara's 1 during her 4.