I had a brake-fade incident on the way to the shoot. I had to remove all garments below the waist because of the horrible odor. (See what I did there?)
JasonCammisa I swear you are the best automotive journalist, i never get bored when i watch your work. I lost my mind when you announced that you are coming back! Love you man!! .... wait a minute! You REPLIED TO MY COMMENT 😳!!
Tim Tursonoff funny comment, but in all seriousness, why would they dislike this? They make the brakes that give you more time until brake fade starts to occur.
When I upgraded the wheels on my MINI, the stock brakes looked ridiculous, so I upgraded fronts and rears. Funny thing is, the Wilwood rotors and calipers were lighter than stock due to aluminum rotor hats and aluminum calipers, combine that with the much lighter wheels and tires, and it was win-win.
Doug Robinson not to mention, that if you really spend big, you can get enormous carbon ceramic rotors that are not only bigger than most steel rotors, but also lighter at the same time, and can handle more heat before they start to fade. Win-win-win
@@carrollshelby8690 if you actually cared about cars you'd know that a properly set up cooper S or JCW is some of the most fun you can have on the road...
@@givemeajackson What's wrong with you? Did you flunk public elementary school? Where did I write the Mini isn't fun? Big wheels and bigger brakes on a Mini are stupid. Bigger brakes and bigger wheels are stupid on any street driven car. if you overheat your brakes on the street - on any public road - you need to go to a driving school.
Carroll Shelby what’s wrong with you? Did you flunk elementary school? When did the OP say he upgraded his daily driver. Stop making assumptions and assuming everyone else is stupid.
Regardless of what you have to say, I upgraded a Jeep with 37” tires to bigger front rotors and moved my calipers out further. It made a big difference. Increased my braking leverage.
What you meant to say was: Big brakes wont necessarily make your car stop shorter. 1) It may depending on whether a specific stop exceeds the thermal capacity of the braking system given the frictional capacity of the road/tire interface and the Momentum (mass-velocity) of the vehicle ( plus the rotation mv of the wheel/tire/brake ). 2) Modern cars can dynamically compensate for brake bias. As always, it depends. 3) Fixed caliper brakes tend to have better brake feel and modulation. This can effect distance a bit, and helps when limits are approached. ABS tuning also affects stopping distance and feel, and a BBK has to be compatible with the ABS to work optimally. 3) OK, maybe its just better to say it won’t make you stop shorter since there are so many dependencies. Oh, and you can’t make butter with a toothpick.
ABS doesn’t make a car stop shorter, quite the reverse, ABS is only meant to allow a poor driver to steer still as they’ve put too much pedal pressure and locked the wheel/s.... if your ABS is cutting in you’re not a very good driver, I have one car with modern ABS and a much older car with a belt driven ABS system (which is shit!🤷♂️😂) I never want ABS when driving as it extends braking distances not reducing it, it’s not so hard... control your brake pedal pressure! Modern cars don’t compensate dynamically for anything other than bad drivers, stability control saves bad drivers and those drivers think they’re driving gods🤦🏼♂️, you cannot change physics and that’s why said drivers will have a big crash inevitably due to not feeling what a car is telling them when driving faster. BBK has to be compatible with the ABS?!? What utter crap... any brake calliper has one job, to clamp a disc when used, the ABS system on anything modern all works the same, ABS only cuts in when the car sees you’ve run out of driving skills, again you can’t change physics (PS I write software for said products) ABS is only useful when a human gets it wrong, hence isn’t used in top level motorsport like F1 anymore, so it’s down to the driver to control pedal pressure to avoid locking a wheel causing a under rotation, which then means you can’t steer as normal) If your ABS cuts in.... you’re trying to cheat physics and you’ll take longer to stop, ABS IS NOT DESIGNED TO MAKE YOU STOP FASTER, NEVER DESIGNED FOR THAT, IT WAS DESIGNED SO YOU CAN STILL STEER WHILST BRAKING HARD IF YOU’VE PUT TOO MUCH PEDAL PRESSURE INTO THE SYSTEM!
@@anon5500 you've obviously missed the part where you can tune ABS. F1 teams got so good at tuning it that cars were braking later and later making everything too dangerous. They were banned together with all other electronic assistance and dynamic aero parts.
What usually works for me explaining this is "Can your current brakes lock up the wheels? Then bigger brakes aren't going to help you stop any shorter."
For me I'm one of the rare people who can say no at least for my front brakes. I have an 80's G body and those brakes just don't cut in in a myriad of ways but even then brake size isn't the biggest factor lol. I just switched to coilovers from old spring/struts and a lot of people disregard how much momentum plays a factor in braking. Simply having a level car will drastically improve braking quality, moreso than big brakes imo.
Brake fluid first, pads second, and ducting will do wonders for pad life and preventing brake fade, been there done that, ducting made an enormous difference.
I think big brakes are appropriate for something that's just criminally under braked from the factory. Example, my Dakota 5.9 R/T has smaller front rotors than my NC Miata. When I used to drive it hard, the rear-only ABS would activate a lot because it was very front-heavy and the bias was set with the assumption of a cargo load. Front rotor warping is very common, even among those who don't chase Corvettes. Dakotas happen to share a bolt pattern with the Viper, so some compelling options are available. But, due to being terminally broke, I never did any of it. Eventually got a real sports car and that's that.
Well, i upgraded brakes on my a4 2002, front and rear. Bought brembo 17z (6pot front 4pot rear from Porsche) it cost me 300$, another 200$ for rotors and pads. Well it weighs less, brake pedal fells great and I stop from 200 way faster, also it didn’t overheat.
Unless, of course, it is accompanied by an upgrade in tire size and compound. Also, it is also often a matter of brake feel, and ability to modulate it. It's not only about stopping distances. In short, a well done BBK installation (usually) also requires upgraded master cylinder and (typically) a partitioning valve.
I put a Wilwood BBK on my Cabriolet mostly because half the brake system needed replacing anyway. But the crown jewels are the Yokohama Advan Fleva V701s. Never felt so much grip in my life. And they cost 1/6 the brake kit (not including the wheels I splurged on).
They definitely add more weight, one thing most people who buy the Z51 package on a Corvette don't think about. Lets be honest, most people want big brakes for the way they look.
Saved Life I added 370Z Akebonos on my dads 350z track car. We started with stock, upgrading pads and fluid, we boiled them 7 minutes into our 20 minute sessions, then went Akebono with HP 5.0 pads, cooked the dust seals out of them, now run DTC60 pads and two piece directional rotors. I could probably run an hour long sprint race with them now!
yup, bigger brakes will make you stop later and slow down your lap times! unless you actually need the extra thermal capacity to prevent fade, as you mentioned! thanks for putting this out there, bigger is not *always* better!
Big brakes helped when I went from 170 to 0 . Vs the month before when I went from 170 and tried to go but once it went down to 60 my brakes where gone and I had to just pray and swerve until I came to a stop
you should consider the tires too do all 4 match? Are they Michelins? i like Michelin tires. i like that engine braking function on the priius i drove in 2007 my car don't have one but it cuts down on the need to use your brakes alot and saves on maintanence.
Although I love the obnoxious tone of Jason, what brakes do is produce torque. Torque with a rotationally opposite to whatever the wheel is doing at the time. Friction is also obnoxious like that. Now let's say, for argument simplicity's sake, that the new brake kit has the exact same friction coefficient (same materials) and the exact same piston surface as the old one, but with a larger diameter. Then: -Using the same brake pump and the same force from your foot, you will be applying the same pressure to the brake fluid -Thus you will be applying the same pressure to your calliper's pistons -Because we assumed we have the same piston area, you will be applying the same force to the brake pad against the disk and hence the same friction force. -But you will be doing it at a larger distance from the centre of rotation than before, thus producing more torque -So, you will have "better braking" and provided your tyres can handle it, you will both brake better and prove a popular, talented, lovable yet mistaken car journalist wrong. Physics is nice, isn't it..? P.S. OEM tyres can handle slightly better brakes.
Big brake kits with floating cross drilled and slotted rotors mounted on aluminum hat are actually lighter than factory iron rotors. Also, the nicer kits have forged aluminum calipers which are lighter than factory iron cast ones. The biggest difference I noticed when upgrading from factory Brembo Evo brakes to Project Mu bbk was the solid pedal feel and confidence when braking hard into corners.
The rotors on my Caravelle Syncro overheats and fades in regular traffic use, it definitely requires bigger brakes in front, my intention is to move the existing rotors to the back to replace the drums.
I will say my situation is somewhat exclusive, but that is the SINGULAR reason I upgraded from 286mm to 305mm brakes on my Volvo S60; brake fade/overheating, which also got to the point where the rotors warped within months. Smaller 286mm rotors don't really cut it for a front-heavy, >3330lb Swedish brute when it comes to dissipating heat---The bigger brakes stay MUCH cooler. Also, this upgrade was NOT expensive. I only needed larger OEM caliper brackets to fit the 305mm rotors (which are usually found on similar S60s with wheels larger than 15"), and remanufactured brackets can be easily found for ~$40 USD, total. All other brake components aside from the rotors are the same. Also, the 305mm brake replacement kits are more common, and are typically less expensive than the 286mm kits, ironically.
Funny, I've got the parts collected to do something like this to the front of my Chrysler 200 V6. SRT4 Caliber rotors (which might be shared with the V6 Journeys and wheel chair converted Caravans and Town and Countrys), the 2 pistion calipers are not only like those from SRT4-C, but also on the LX cars, Ram Trucks, Jeep Wrangler and the Grand Cherokee/Durango siblings, Charger brake hoses, and finally caliper brackets from the cars sent to Europe with the BR2 brake package (basically the full SRT4-C brake system, but installed on the Avenger and 200). This set up will clear the factory 18" wheels, is compatable with the factory 2011-2014 US 4 wheels disk brake system as well as the older, '08-'10 rear drum brake system! So far as getting that to the ground, I have wider (235 vs 225), grippier than stock V-Rated (factory was T-Rated and have run Z-Rated on it too) all season tires. The rotors will just be stock replacement style rotors and semi-metallic pads since it's a street going car that has to deal with "Chicago Traffic" (I'm in the Suburbs, but people do get stupid here, plus there was that couch incident on I-88 and coyotes roaming the area) so something fairly quick to heat up and be effective and be more likely to get rid of excess heat never hurts too.
@@yamatodamashii1179 Well, that's (probably) heavy muscle whereas this Volvo S60 is a smaller, city-driven compact executive. 305mm is definitely enough for these Volvos in most cases.
Hence why I installed a pedal box, converting from the stock split diagonal to adjustable front rear bias. I could then brake so much later, harder and deeper into a corner.
Jason, thank christ you're regularly posting again, but this time it's with new and improved sweary pants upgrade. Awesome. As for the brakes - totally spot on.
I upgraded my fronts 10mm larger but with 2 more calipers and I noticed my front wheel biased awd car could rotate better in turns with a little bit of braking so it solved my understeer issues…ish
Feels like this video needs an asterisk added. Most cars this will be true on, there are however exceptions to the rule. Compare an early Gen 2 Viper to a later one. One of the failing points of the early ones is their poor stopping distance. Yes, abs on the later cars helps a bit, but the bump in rear piston size along with a brake bias that did not favor the fronts lead to a dramatic increase in braking. This can be replicated on the early ones without abs.
Great point...Big misconception too often not explained! I used to have a 1971 Buick Gran Sport with well adjusted 4 wheel drums. Though Brake fade was severe, and came on with just 2 or 3 hard braking events, the 1st time you hit the brakes...it stopped on a dime! I mean...the brakes were exceptional!
+1. ..Big brakes "A trueness no man can deny". .. Recall the first stop after fitting Pilot Super Sport gummi tires on my MkV GTI ..... Nice, nice tires. .. (225/45/17") Cheers, Vail, Colorado
Few things having a bigger disc WILL help braking power however 1. tires have to have enough grip 2. disc and wheel package has to be assumed the same weight 3. calipers also have to have the same amount of clamping force
Currently in the process of installing 4 piston front brakes on my car... Yes, only upgrading the fronts... Well that was a nice video to ruin my mood and make me question all my life decisions LOL
The fronts do most of the stopping in alot of cars anyway its not like your braking will get worse by upgrading brakes guy that made this video is an idiot
My car came with factory Brembos so I’ll bow to the engineers on the need for bigger brakes but holy mother of brake dust are my wheels hard to keep clean. Definitely going with a hybrid pad when they need replacing cause I have to clean my wheels after nearly every drive
I've had brake fade issues in my Mirage. Fresh, thicc, stock sized rotors and ceramic pads seem to be just the trick. If you have 80,000 miles of hit city laps on your original rotors, they probably have kess thermal mass than they came with.
You don't necessarily change brake bias with a big brake kit. Well made kits account for caliper piston surface area, so you get the benefits of more thermal mass and better control without upsetting your brake balance.
I believe everything you’re saying. But I put a big brake kit on my 2011 Taurus SHO (oem Ford parts from the 2013+ PP SHO) and the difference was night and day. NIGHT. And DAY. So..................... I’m confused.
Running the stock size rotors on my mustang, a drilled slotted set, but stock size. The "premium" package comes with "big brakes" up front from the factory, really they are just the same size as the rear brakes. I replaced my calipers when they were worn with a re-manufactured set, that were rebuilt with better than stock components, and powder coated red....because red dissipates heat so well? Long story short, running better pads, stock sizes, and silicone fluid, works great. I'm not out on the track, I just live near enough to lots of great winding roads. I was to cheap to go with the giant Brembos, now I feel justified in my choices....so thanks!
I'm struggling with that a bit. I have a 68 Impala SS with drum brakes. I'm looking to convert the front brakes to disc, but most of the conversion kits run 11" discs from the Chevelles and Camaros, and single piston calipers from the S10. 12' discs were an option, and Wilwood has a 12' disc and a 4 piston caliper. I'm planning on keeping the rear drums, so I've been trying to figure out if the bigger discs are a better idea than the smaller ones. As for bias, all I've found in my research is that alot of people run an adjustable bias valve to adjust it themselves.
And you're good. Older (and especially American) stuff like your Impala needs a brake upgrade no matter what - and especially with drums up front. You can cure the brake-bias thing easily with proportioning valves, bias valve, or even just brake-force limiters for the rear, if someone else has already done the engineering.) In your case, with drums, any upgrade to discs will give you far greater thermal capacity and pedal feel. Go for it - and only worry about the front/rear bias if (a) you're getting rear lockup or (b) you're tracking the thing. Which... 68 Impala? You're not.
@@JasonCammisa Well with a wife and kids the budget is what ever I can hide;) There are some pretty decent suspension upgrades from Ride Tech and Global West, and CPP has a faster steering box as well. So tracking the car isn't going to happen anytime soon, but I'd like to see if I can get it to handle better. I figured I'd see if I can get it close to a standard Camaro, so I might need to borrow your mullet wig;)
@@simontallboy209 Contact a company like CPP. Get the natural bias right before resorting to band-aid fixes like the ones Jason is recommending. (NEVER put a pressure limiting device on the front brake lines.) The biggest issue in upgrading to front discs from drums is that the system requires way more fluid volume for the calipers. A new properly sized master cylinder will be necessary to support the upgrade. A drum brake is self energizing. That is, when the shoe makes contact, the assembly is designed with mechanical advantage to pull the shoe in even harder. On the front, this action never quite happens at the same time left to right. That's why front drum brake cars are notorious for pulling to one side or the other under hard braking. I'm not sure what wheels you're trying to run or what driving you hope to do. If you want to keep stock 15" wheels, try to stick to an 11" rotor. Any larger and you'll likely end up getting a 17" or even 18" wheel (based on popularity and availability, not so much minimum clearance.) Avoid Wilwood. They're lazy in their approach to brake bias. They give you whatever generic caliper piston/rotor diameter combination and and then say "slap this prop valve on the rear."
I was thinking in bigger brakes, then I tried just Motul 660 fluid, DTC60 pads and semislivks, problem solved! my 4 piston Advics stock brakes work perfect in my Mustang. Have not seen overheating scratches at the rotors, just a little of investigation and my car behaves as I want at my local track. Totally agree on video's statement
Agreed. I would add that upgrading components such as pads, Slotted rotors and or stainless brake lines can improve initial bite (especially in the wet) and likely reduce breaking distance based on how quickly it can react. I would be interested to see the effects of braided stainless brake lines on an abs stop. Would the system work differently since the lines would swell less?
Braided lines make a very tiny impression in your braking system probably not enough to notice. The swelling that the companies that sell the braided lines claim to happen really doesn't it's not building pressure in the line its just about moving the fluid to the piston. You can observe that yourself
@@jhlaxbro27 I feel like you completely missed the point of the video with that statement. As Jason says, Almost all factory breaking systems can overpower the tires grip, hence the need for abs. Upgrading your pads and rotors help with handling heat for consistent stops. And the swell you claim doesn't exist..... I wonder why brake pedals feel so much firmer after swapping to braided stainless lines? 🤔
I actually had to upgrade my brakes because I bought the wrong size of the rotor (280mm vs 300mm). (Happens when a car has multiple configurations from the factory) Good thing there were cheap front calipers on eBay that is from the same model. Stopping power is the same, but it bites better. Yes. If you brake frequently (spirited driving), it “can” help. And yeah. The rear is now on Brembo pads.
Drove a Mini Cooper S and first stop and the brakes felt rubbish and longer to stop. Drove a JCW with Brembo’s and first stop was night and day difference. Agree with fade and needing decent tyres. I don’t agree with this one without upgrading pads, fluids and lines.
Most logical big brake upgrade for Mk5 GTi is to install the rotors and calipers fro the Mk5 R32. I expect the same can be said of subsequent generations and the Golf R.
More brake torque from bigger calipers do matter and do shorten brake disrance when the tire is high grip. At high speeds, a small caliper would not be able to get near locking with high grip tires because the small caliper lacks brake torque necessary to utilize the grip available. At low speeds however, a small caliper would get to locking as much as a big caliper would. With lower grip tires, a small caliper would be sufficient perhaps even at high speed braking
I recommend no abs system, stainless lines, motul fluid, slot rotors, and good ceramic pads. It's an affordable street better brake kit. Zero noise no brake dust like what I have. I can lock up my wheels with pretty grippy summer performance tires and definitely feels better than before. The stop tech big brake kit was too much money.
It makes no diff except if you just do the front where those brakes that are bigger now stop faster and more of the car... that you said was impossible ?
I never mess around with brakes on cars but on a motorcycle I had the brakes could overpower the tires stock. I know that for a fact because I crashed when my brakes overpowered the tire. But they always felt like shit and required all four fingers. Then I put fancy brakes on that bike and it felt like dropping anchor with light pressure from one finger. Explain that? In any case there are numbers on paper then there’s feel and confidence.
How about, brake pads with more resitance and more powerful master cylinder? (Unless you allready lock up your wheels with no issue.) Edit: I'm not an engineer, I'm even a drop out, so I could be very wrong.
What about actual swept area by the brake pads? The higher the rate of swept area should equal more frictional grip due to spreading out of thermal load. Think of brake pads on a compact car in relation to a large car or suv. The size of the pad, rotor, and thusly swept area are in stark contrast. I realize there is a point of diminished return, but the physics do lean toward bigger brakes being the better of the two.
When he said "they cost a fortune and you're a cheap fuck", I felt that.
I never felt more understood.
Seriously. That was almost prophetic.
Completely kit of brembo 17z (6pot front 4 top rear used) cost only 300$. Is this “a fortune”?
@@MegaShapin Yes
I laughed the second he said it like “yeah you’re right!” 🤣🤣🤣
I hit the like button at that point. Lol
Missed you buddy. Only you can insult me 12 times in a 3 minute video and I completely agree with everything you said
Didn’t expect to see you here
😂😂😂
Even though I feel pretty educated on a lot of automotive issues but everytime i watch Jason’s videos. I immediately feel like I’m in Auto 101 😂
I have a feeling that he wasn’t wearing pants
I had a brake-fade incident on the way to the shoot. I had to remove all garments below the waist because of the horrible odor. (See what I did there?)
JasonCammisa I swear you are the best automotive journalist, i never get bored when i watch your work. I lost my mind when you announced that you are coming back! Love you man!! .... wait a minute! You REPLIED TO MY COMMENT 😳!!
@@saifabdalkader9512 wow, all I have to do is reply and I'm a hero? WOOHOO! :-D (Seriously tho, thank you!)
JasonCammisa you are very welcome 😁
That's the way to do it, web interviews FTW.
Can’t talk, busy installing giant brakes on my Tercel.
Giant drama breaks from a old semi on my Miata, they will never fade. ;)
lmao my ole tercel was a beast. It was dry on oil and still kept going
You can’t kill a Tercel.
This video was instantly disliked by Brembo and Stoptech.
Tim Tursonoff funny comment, but in all seriousness, why would they dislike this? They make the brakes that give you more time until brake fade starts to occur.
@@RB-xv4si dude relax it was a joke
Think about it, though. He just sold a bunch of four corner setups.
It was stoptech who wrote the white paper that taught me this lesson over a decade ago. They (and likely Brembo too) would love this video.
Did you know StopTech is a subsidiary of Brembo??
Thanks, Jason, you changed my mind. I will go with plan B and paint my drumbrakes red.
When I upgraded the wheels on my MINI, the stock brakes looked ridiculous, so I upgraded fronts and rears. Funny thing is, the Wilwood rotors and calipers were lighter than stock due to aluminum rotor hats and aluminum calipers, combine that with the much lighter wheels and tires, and it was win-win.
Doug Robinson not to mention, that if you really spend big, you can get enormous carbon ceramic rotors that are not only bigger than most steel rotors, but also lighter at the same time, and can handle more heat before they start to fade. Win-win-win
You didn't need bigger wheels on that econo shit box. Spend the money driving school.
@@carrollshelby8690 if you actually cared about cars you'd know that a properly set up cooper S or JCW is some of the most fun you can have on the road...
@@givemeajackson What's wrong with you? Did you flunk public elementary school? Where did I write the Mini isn't fun? Big wheels and bigger brakes on a Mini are stupid. Bigger brakes and bigger wheels are stupid on any street driven car. if you overheat your brakes on the street - on any public road - you need to go to a driving school.
Carroll Shelby what’s wrong with you? Did you flunk elementary school? When did the OP say he upgraded his daily driver. Stop making assumptions and assuming everyone else is stupid.
Regardless of what you have to say, I upgraded a Jeep with 37” tires to bigger front rotors and moved my calipers out further. It made a big difference. Increased my braking leverage.
What you meant to say was:
Big brakes wont necessarily make your car stop shorter.
1) It may depending on whether a specific stop exceeds the thermal capacity of the braking system given the frictional capacity of the road/tire interface and the Momentum (mass-velocity) of the vehicle ( plus the rotation mv of the wheel/tire/brake ).
2) Modern cars can dynamically compensate for brake bias. As always, it depends.
3) Fixed caliper brakes tend to have better brake feel and modulation. This can effect distance a bit, and helps when limits are approached. ABS tuning also affects stopping distance and feel, and a BBK has to be compatible with the ABS to work optimally.
3) OK, maybe its just better to say it won’t make you stop shorter since there are so many dependencies.
Oh, and you can’t make butter with a toothpick.
ABS doesn’t make a car stop shorter, quite the reverse, ABS is only meant to allow a poor driver to steer still as they’ve put too much pedal pressure and locked the wheel/s.... if your ABS is cutting in you’re not a very good driver, I have one car with modern ABS and a much older car with a belt driven ABS system (which is shit!🤷♂️😂) I never want ABS when driving as it extends braking distances not reducing it, it’s not so hard... control your brake pedal pressure! Modern cars don’t compensate dynamically for anything other than bad drivers, stability control saves bad drivers and those drivers think they’re driving gods🤦🏼♂️, you cannot change physics and that’s why said drivers will have a big crash inevitably due to not feeling what a car is telling them when driving faster. BBK has to be compatible with the ABS?!? What utter crap... any brake calliper has one job, to clamp a disc when used, the ABS system on anything modern all works the same, ABS only cuts in when the car sees you’ve run out of driving skills, again you can’t change physics (PS I write software for said products) ABS is only useful when a human gets it wrong, hence isn’t used in top level motorsport like F1 anymore, so it’s down to the driver to control pedal pressure to avoid locking a wheel causing a under rotation, which then means you can’t steer as normal) If your ABS cuts in.... you’re trying to cheat physics and you’ll take longer to stop, ABS IS NOT DESIGNED TO MAKE YOU STOP FASTER, NEVER DESIGNED FOR THAT, IT WAS DESIGNED SO YOU CAN STILL STEER WHILST BRAKING HARD IF YOU’VE PUT TOO MUCH PEDAL PRESSURE INTO THE SYSTEM!
You CAN make butter with a toothpick. Its all about the recieving end and WHERE its been.
@@anon5500 Yeah we get it, you think you can drive and you can't, you're better than everyone, blah blah blah...
The works.
@@anon5500 we get it, you're a great driver. Thanks for letting us know.
@@anon5500 you've obviously missed the part where you can tune ABS. F1 teams got so good at tuning it that cars were braking later and later making everything too dangerous. They were banned together with all other electronic assistance and dynamic aero parts.
What usually works for me explaining this is "Can your current brakes lock up the wheels? Then bigger brakes aren't going to help you stop any shorter."
For me I'm one of the rare people who can say no at least for my front brakes. I have an 80's G body and those brakes just don't cut in in a myriad of ways but even then brake size isn't the biggest factor lol. I just switched to coilovers from old spring/struts and a lot of people disregard how much momentum plays a factor in braking. Simply having a level car will drastically improve braking quality, moreso than big brakes imo.
Good job. 👏 Adam Sandler should've just made a 6 second video saying that instead.
I have just stumbled on Jason C's "the grumpy old man" video series. Enjoying them.
Brake fluid first, pads second, and ducting will do wonders for pad life and preventing brake fade, been there done that, ducting made an enormous difference.
I just paint my breaks and use stickers for extra crispy rice points.
Stupid🤣🙆🏾♂️
Red Calipers. Lets your neighbours know Who's the Boss!!!!
^^
nice
You paint ON your breaks or you painted your brakes? Either way, HOOZAHS.
Jason cammisa, Chris Harris, Matt Farah, Tiff needell podcast. Could you imagine?
motozan yeah Matt Farrah would be too busy trying to one up everyone and letting you know that he’s better than you
Minus Matt Farah
Ok Matt will throw them subjects and listen😂
Jason and Chris for sure. But not Matt.
Add Henry catchpole to that list
I have a set of cross drilled and vented rotors with some aggressive pads and I love them.
I think big brakes are appropriate for something that's just criminally under braked from the factory. Example, my Dakota 5.9 R/T has smaller front rotors than my NC Miata. When I used to drive it hard, the rear-only ABS would activate a lot because it was very front-heavy and the bias was set with the assumption of a cargo load. Front rotor warping is very common, even among those who don't chase Corvettes. Dakotas happen to share a bolt pattern with the Viper, so some compelling options are available. But, due to being terminally broke, I never did any of it. Eventually got a real sports car and that's that.
Well, i upgraded brakes on my a4 2002, front and rear. Bought brembo 17z (6pot front 4pot rear from Porsche) it cost me 300$, another 200$ for rotors and pads. Well it weighs less, brake pedal fells great and I stop from 200 way faster, also it didn’t overheat.
I've had plenty of brake fade on the track with undersized brakes. Yeah, there is a time and place for an upgrade.
Haha that pinky at the end!!!! Hilarious!!!
Jason posting videos regularly? Finally! something in my life I can look forward to that won't disappoint!
Unless, of course, it is accompanied by an upgrade in tire size and compound. Also, it is also often a matter of brake feel, and ability to modulate it. It's not only about stopping distances. In short, a well done BBK installation (usually) also requires upgraded master cylinder and (typically) a partitioning valve.
Wow I honestly did not know this and I truly thank you Mr. Jason!!!
I put a Wilwood BBK on my Cabriolet mostly because half the brake system needed replacing anyway.
But the crown jewels are the Yokohama Advan Fleva V701s. Never felt so much grip in my life. And they cost 1/6 the brake kit (not including the wheels I splurged on).
Thank you very much. I almost lost my mind trying to explain this common sense to someone who threw alot on money on brakes 😄
They definitely add more weight, one thing most people who buy the Z51 package on a Corvette don't think about. Lets be honest, most people want big brakes for the way they look.
Saved Life I added 370Z Akebonos on my dads 350z track car. We started with stock, upgrading pads and fluid, we boiled them 7 minutes into our 20 minute sessions, then went Akebono with HP 5.0 pads, cooked the dust seals out of them, now run DTC60 pads and two piece directional rotors. I could probably run an hour long sprint race with them now!
@@dancarlos1216 Good to hear someone using their big brakes for what they're made for: racing.
Yep!
@@dancarlos1216 Hope you and your dad have lots of fun with it! Sounds like a blast, would love to do that someday!
yup, bigger brakes will make you stop later and slow down your lap times! unless you actually need the extra thermal capacity to prevent fade, as you mentioned! thanks for putting this out there, bigger is not *always* better!
Big brakes helped when I went from 170 to 0 . Vs the month before when I went from 170 and tried to go but once it went down to 60 my brakes where gone and I had to just pray and swerve until I came to a stop
you should consider the tires too do all 4 match? Are they Michelins? i like Michelin tires. i like that engine braking function on the priius i drove in 2007 my car don't have one but it cuts down on the need to use your brakes alot and saves on maintanence.
Although I love the obnoxious tone of Jason, what brakes do is produce torque. Torque with a rotationally opposite to whatever the wheel is doing at the time. Friction is also obnoxious like that.
Now let's say, for argument simplicity's sake, that the new brake kit has the exact same friction coefficient (same materials) and the exact same piston surface as the old one, but with a larger diameter. Then:
-Using the same brake pump and the same force from your foot, you will be applying the same pressure to the brake fluid
-Thus you will be applying the same pressure to your calliper's pistons
-Because we assumed we have the same piston area, you will be applying the same force to the brake pad against the disk and hence the same friction force.
-But you will be doing it at a larger distance from the centre of rotation than before, thus producing more torque
-So, you will have "better braking" and provided your tyres can handle it, you will both brake better and prove a popular, talented, lovable yet mistaken car journalist wrong.
Physics is nice, isn't it..?
P.S. OEM tyres can handle slightly better brakes.
Big brake kits with floating cross drilled and slotted rotors mounted on aluminum hat are actually lighter than factory iron rotors. Also, the nicer kits have forged aluminum calipers which are lighter than factory iron cast ones. The biggest difference I noticed when upgrading from factory Brembo Evo brakes to Project Mu bbk was the solid pedal feel and confidence when braking hard into corners.
The rotors on my Caravelle Syncro overheats and fades in regular traffic use, it definitely requires bigger brakes in front, my intention is to move the existing rotors to the back to replace the drums.
I will say my situation is somewhat exclusive, but that is the SINGULAR reason I upgraded from 286mm to 305mm brakes on my Volvo S60; brake fade/overheating, which also got to the point where the rotors warped within months. Smaller 286mm rotors don't really cut it for a front-heavy, >3330lb Swedish brute when it comes to dissipating heat---The bigger brakes stay MUCH cooler.
Also, this upgrade was NOT expensive. I only needed larger OEM caliper brackets to fit the 305mm rotors (which are usually found on similar S60s with wheels larger than 15"), and remanufactured brackets can be easily found for ~$40 USD, total. All other brake components aside from the rotors are the same. Also, the 305mm brake replacement kits are more common, and are typically less expensive than the 286mm kits, ironically.
Funny, I've got the parts collected to do something like this to the front of my Chrysler 200 V6. SRT4 Caliber rotors (which might be shared with the V6 Journeys and wheel chair converted Caravans and Town and Countrys), the 2 pistion calipers are not only like those from SRT4-C, but also on the LX cars, Ram Trucks, Jeep Wrangler and the Grand Cherokee/Durango siblings, Charger brake hoses, and finally caliper brackets from the cars sent to Europe with the BR2 brake package (basically the full SRT4-C brake system, but installed on the Avenger and 200). This set up will clear the factory 18" wheels, is compatable with the factory 2011-2014 US 4 wheels disk brake system as well as the older, '08-'10 rear drum brake system! So far as getting that to the ground, I have wider (235 vs 225), grippier than stock V-Rated (factory was T-Rated and have run Z-Rated on it too) all season tires. The rotors will just be stock replacement style rotors and semi-metallic pads since it's a street going car that has to deal with "Chicago Traffic" (I'm in the Suburbs, but people do get stupid here, plus there was that couch incident on I-88 and coyotes roaming the area) so something fairly quick to heat up and be effective and be more likely to get rid of excess heat never hurts too.
So basically you had a car with undersized brakes from the factory.
@@Talynen Yeah, pretty much. This was also a thing with the older 850 models among others.
305mm, ha! Those are rookie numbers. 362’s on my big block straight out of Detroit muscle!
@@yamatodamashii1179 Well, that's (probably) heavy muscle whereas this Volvo S60 is a smaller, city-driven compact executive. 305mm is definitely enough for these Volvos in most cases.
Hold on though. If you do put a bigger rotor, doesn't that physically give you more braking surface to work with thus more braking power?
Hence why I installed a pedal box, converting from the stock split diagonal to adjustable front rear bias. I could then brake so much later, harder and deeper into a corner.
What if you upgrade your brake drums in front with disks? Like in a VW Beetle (that also has a faster engine)?
Jason, thank christ you're regularly posting again, but this time it's with new and improved sweary pants upgrade. Awesome. As for the brakes - totally spot on.
For handling upgrades i go with tires - coilovers - pads - rotors in order
I upgraded my fronts 10mm larger but with 2 more calipers and I noticed my front wheel biased awd car could rotate better in turns with a little bit of braking so it solved my understeer issues…ish
How about same size two-piece rotors front and back?.
“,And your underwear”. Got me. Lol!
Helpful and funny, you're too good Sandler ❤️
Sooo M performance brakes front and back with my 275 square tires on my wagon should be acceptable?
And what do I need to do instead for better braking?
The ADAM SANDLER of car experts 👌🏻 Great Stuff !
When you said “big brakes cost and you’re a cheap fuck” I felt that! 😂😆😂
Feels like this video needs an asterisk added. Most cars this will be true on, there are however exceptions to the rule. Compare an early Gen 2 Viper to a later one. One of the failing points of the early ones is their poor stopping distance. Yes, abs on the later cars helps a bit, but the bump in rear piston size along with a brake bias that did not favor the fronts lead to a dramatic increase in braking. This can be replicated on the early ones without abs.
ok what about slotted or drilled brakes? do they actually help in brake fade ?
Which one will last longer on a track before fade? A big brake kit or installing brake ducts to the insides of the rotors on stock brakes?
Great point...Big misconception too often not explained!
I used to have a 1971 Buick Gran Sport with well adjusted 4 wheel drums.
Though Brake fade was severe, and came on with just 2 or 3 hard braking events, the 1st time you hit the brakes...it stopped on a dime!
I mean...the brakes were exceptional!
Easy to stop when you arent actually going fast
love these videos! posted this on a car group who obsessed with big brake kits lol
Well, my stock brakes did suck.
My current setup is very cost effective. And it looks nice.
+1. ..Big brakes "A trueness no man can deny". .. Recall the first stop after fitting Pilot Super Sport gummi tires on my MkV GTI ..... Nice, nice tires. .. (225/45/17") Cheers, Vail, Colorado
i thought larger diameter rotors would help increase the torque arm, and help improve braking
Well I'm informed, entertained and insulted all from this one video. Love it.
Few things having a bigger disc WILL help braking power however
1. tires have to have enough grip
2. disc and wheel package has to be assumed the same weight
3. calipers also have to have the same amount of clamping force
Learned what i wanted in just a short video.. subscribed
Currently in the process of installing 4 piston front brakes on my car... Yes, only upgrading the fronts... Well that was a nice video to ruin my mood and make me question all my life decisions LOL
Dont worry this is just an Idiot with an opinion and a camera. He doesn't even test his claim so I'd listen to a race engineer
The fronts do most of the stopping in alot of cars anyway its not like your braking will get worse by upgrading brakes guy that made this video is an idiot
Best one yet
Drilled and slotted looks soo cool though and, that's gotta be more hp than all the stickers. Right?
My car came with factory Brembos so I’ll bow to the engineers on the need for bigger brakes but holy mother of brake dust are my wheels hard to keep clean. Definitely going with a hybrid pad when they need replacing cause I have to clean my wheels after nearly every drive
I've had brake fade issues in my Mirage. Fresh, thicc, stock sized rotors and ceramic pads seem to be just the trick. If you have 80,000 miles of hit city laps on your original rotors, they probably have kess thermal mass than they came with.
My brakes are so bad that my ABS doesnt even kick in when I do an emergency stop, even when turning in they dont have enough power to lock a wheel
You don't necessarily change brake bias with a big brake kit. Well made kits account for caliper piston surface area, so you get the benefits of more thermal mass and better control without upsetting your brake balance.
Jason needs a technical editor.
BBK looks so good, just love to see the rotors fill up to the last mm of inner wheel barrel 🥵
Thanks Jason
I believe everything you’re saying. But I put a big brake kit on my 2011 Taurus SHO (oem Ford parts from the 2013+ PP SHO) and the difference was night and day. NIGHT. And DAY. So..................... I’m confused.
Running the stock size rotors on my mustang, a drilled slotted set, but stock size. The "premium" package comes with "big brakes" up front from the factory, really they are just the same size as the rear brakes. I replaced my calipers when they were worn with a re-manufactured set, that were rebuilt with better than stock components, and powder coated red....because red dissipates heat so well? Long story short, running better pads, stock sizes, and silicone fluid, works great.
I'm not out on the track, I just live near enough to lots of great winding roads. I was to cheap to go with the giant Brembos, now I feel justified in my choices....so thanks!
Hey Jason what about drilled rotors? is that a smart upgrade or is it dumbs as well?
I'm struggling with that a bit. I have a 68 Impala SS with drum brakes. I'm looking to convert the front brakes to disc, but most of the conversion kits run 11" discs from the Chevelles and Camaros, and single piston calipers from the S10. 12' discs were an option, and Wilwood has a 12' disc and a 4 piston caliper. I'm planning on keeping the rear drums, so I've been trying to figure out if the bigger discs are a better idea than the smaller ones. As for bias, all I've found in my research is that alot of people run an adjustable bias valve to adjust it themselves.
And you're good. Older (and especially American) stuff like your Impala needs a brake upgrade no matter what - and especially with drums up front. You can cure the brake-bias thing easily with proportioning valves, bias valve, or even just brake-force limiters for the rear, if someone else has already done the engineering.) In your case, with drums, any upgrade to discs will give you far greater thermal capacity and pedal feel. Go for it - and only worry about the front/rear bias if (a) you're getting rear lockup or (b) you're tracking the thing. Which... 68 Impala? You're not.
@@JasonCammisa Well with a wife and kids the budget is what ever I can hide;) There are some pretty decent suspension upgrades from Ride Tech and Global West, and CPP has a faster steering box as well. So tracking the car isn't going to happen anytime soon, but I'd like to see if I can get it to handle better. I figured I'd see if I can get it close to a standard Camaro, so I might need to borrow your mullet wig;)
@@simontallboy209 Contact a company like CPP. Get the natural bias right before resorting to band-aid fixes like the ones Jason is recommending. (NEVER put a pressure limiting device on the front brake lines.)
The biggest issue in upgrading to front discs from drums is that the system requires way more fluid volume for the calipers. A new properly sized master cylinder will be necessary to support the upgrade.
A drum brake is self energizing. That is, when the shoe makes contact, the assembly is designed with mechanical advantage to pull the shoe in even harder. On the front, this action never quite happens at the same time left to right. That's why front drum brake cars are notorious for pulling to one side or the other under hard braking.
I'm not sure what wheels you're trying to run or what driving you hope to do. If you want to keep stock 15" wheels, try to stick to an 11" rotor. Any larger and you'll likely end up getting a 17" or even 18" wheel (based on popularity and availability, not so much minimum clearance.)
Avoid Wilwood. They're lazy in their approach to brake bias. They give you whatever generic caliper piston/rotor diameter combination and and then say "slap this prop valve on the rear."
I was thinking in bigger brakes, then I tried just Motul 660 fluid, DTC60 pads and semislivks, problem solved! my 4 piston Advics stock brakes work perfect in my Mustang. Have not seen overheating scratches at the rotors, just a little of investigation and my car behaves as I want at my local track. Totally agree on video's statement
But leverage?
All I know is I put XR6 t front brakes and territory rear brakes on my falcon and it pulls up noticeably better. Never tracked it though
Yeah, this is something my teacher would always hammer into us. Look where the object interacts with its environment. That's where it counts.
I hear you but the drum brakes on my car barely overpower the upgraded tires at low speeds. And they fade after one stop.
What if the car/truck has HUGE rims like 24s and you're going 100mph, will bigger brakes help you stop faster
So glad to see you’re back on youtube.
I already knew this but god, I love this channel!
Agreed. I would add that upgrading components such as pads, Slotted rotors and or stainless brake lines can improve initial bite (especially in the wet) and likely reduce breaking distance based on how quickly it can react.
I would be interested to see the effects of braided stainless brake lines on an abs stop. Would the system work differently since the lines would swell less?
The amount of pistons and the size of the calipers will determine the stop, upgrading rotor and pad will help with wear
Braided lines make a very tiny impression in your braking system probably not enough to notice. The swelling that the companies that sell the braided lines claim to happen really doesn't it's not building pressure in the line its just about moving the fluid to the piston. You can observe that yourself
@@jhlaxbro27 I feel like you completely missed the point of the video with that statement. As Jason says, Almost all factory breaking systems can overpower the tires grip, hence the need for abs. Upgrading your pads and rotors help with handling heat for consistent stops.
And the swell you claim doesn't exist..... I wonder why brake pedals feel so much firmer after swapping to braided stainless lines? 🤔
@@JP-ug1xr probably because you just bled the brakes...
I mean, I'm already using Acura RL calipers and 350z rotors on my Acura CL. There are no kits for the rear end! What else am I supposed to do?
I actually had to upgrade my brakes because I bought the wrong size of the rotor (280mm vs 300mm). (Happens when a car has multiple configurations from the factory) Good thing there were cheap front calipers on eBay that is from the same model.
Stopping power is the same, but it bites better. Yes. If you brake frequently (spirited driving), it “can” help.
And yeah. The rear is now on Brembo pads.
Drove a Mini Cooper S and first stop and the brakes felt rubbish and longer to stop. Drove a JCW with Brembo’s and first stop was night and day difference. Agree with fade and needing decent tyres. I don’t agree with this one without upgrading pads, fluids and lines.
Brakes don't rotate, so how do bigger brakes cause additional rotational weight? 1:35
Most logical big brake upgrade for Mk5 GTi is to install the rotors and calipers fro the Mk5 R32. I expect the same can be said of subsequent generations and the Golf R.
the heavier brake parts also hurt unsprung weight. this = crappier ride, turn in etc...
Better pad and a better caliper helps tons before getting actual bigger brakes
I fuckin' heart Jason Cammisa! Ever since his video with his Cabrio and this just reinforces that feeling.
You have to use it with better tires/ rims size
With a relatively lightweight rim
what do you mean, the engineers designing the car actually know what they are doing?
Jä Jason I knew dis, but zhank you veddy much for the preachy-teachy!
Sooooo big breaks and better tires?
So, pads?
First thought was if you don’t have the tire to support breaks
More brake torque from bigger calipers do matter and do shorten brake disrance when the tire is high grip.
At high speeds, a small caliper would not be able to get near locking with high grip tires because the small caliper lacks brake torque necessary to utilize the grip available.
At low speeds however, a small caliper would get to locking as much as a big caliper would.
With lower grip tires, a small caliper would be sufficient perhaps even at high speed braking
Tires. And suspension, namely its effect on grip by exerting force into the road.
Thank you for making these sassy short vids so I don't have to bitch at my friends and explain the topics they cover
Never thought I'd see a Red Fang clip in one of these.
I noticed that right away, and wondered if anyone else did.
I recommend no abs system, stainless lines, motul fluid, slot rotors, and good ceramic pads. It's an affordable street better brake kit. Zero noise no brake dust like what I have. I can lock up my wheels with pretty grippy summer performance tires and definitely feels better than before. The stop tech big brake kit was too much money.
It makes no diff except if you just do the front where those brakes that are bigger now stop faster and more of the car... that you said was impossible ?
I never mess around with brakes on cars but on a motorcycle I had the brakes could overpower the tires stock. I know that for a fact because I crashed when my brakes overpowered the tire. But they always felt like shit and required all four fingers.
Then I put fancy brakes on that bike and it felt like dropping anchor with light pressure from one finger.
Explain that?
In any case there are numbers on paper then there’s feel and confidence.
But what if I put way bigger tires/wheels and I’m over powering my brakes.
Rev match downshifting goes a long way unless you got an automatic.
finally someone spoke the truth. You get better braking distance by 1) stickier compound tires, and 2) wider front tires
wider tires* front and rear.
How about, brake pads with more resitance and more powerful master cylinder?
(Unless you allready lock up your wheels with no issue.)
Edit: I'm not an engineer, I'm even a drop out, so I could be very wrong.
@@Stormcloakvictory on any functioning car the brakes can overpower the tires.
also by lowering weight. yeet the interior if you want to go fast.
What about actual swept area by the brake pads? The higher the rate of swept area should equal more frictional grip due to spreading out of thermal load. Think of brake pads on a compact car in relation to a large car or suv. The size of the pad, rotor, and thusly swept area are in stark contrast. I realize there is a point of diminished return, but the physics do lean toward bigger brakes being the better of the two.