Mario Lemieux is the best hockey player to ever put on a pair of ice skates. You all can have #99 and his numerous scoring records... who was blessed with a bundle of talent around him. The eye test is real simple - Lemieux was just better; Better shot, bigger & stronger, longer reach, one-on-one skill not even close, best player ever on a breakaway - a goaltender's complete nightmare.
The myth against Gretz continues....The Pens had more hall of famers on their team than the Oilers. And, more importantly, the Pen hall of famers were hall of famers in their own right while most of the Oiler hall of famers made their careers precisely because of Gretzky. They were both great but approached hockey differently. Lemieux was probably the most individually talented, and I would take him to go one one one against anyone. But hockey is not an individual sport and Gretzky understood this and used it to his advantage more than anyone. Despite being able to go through a team individually, as per many highlights, Gretz used everything available to him to get the greatest advantage...teammates, the boards, the glass, the net, etc. He just understood the game better than anyone. And the objective evidence is clearly out there. They played in the same era and Gretz's numbers per year or career, trophies, and championships speak for themselves. As amazing as Lemieux was, Gretz scored 1,000 points faster than Lemieux, not once but twice. There's a reason why Lemieux chose to wear 66 and why 99 is retired league wide.
Yeah the penguins just had no talent you’re right. Gretzky higher ppg despite playing to almost 40 while Mario played almost entirely in prime years. It’s a shame Wayne is so humble bc then people become delusional and actually believe him when he says other guys are better. Not close. GOAT
@@dalton7726 You have good points but it’s closer than you think. The Oilers were basically a wagon from the beginning…while Mario came into a historically bad team. Mario’s health issues alone cost him untold amounts of points. Most impressive to me, and something I believe Gretzky wouldn’t have been able to do, was come back after three years out of the game and absolutely dominate…during the peak of the dead puck era. Gretzky basically retired as the dead puck era got going. Had Lemieux played as many games as Gretzky, they’d be neck and neck.
@@achildr1 Wayne's first year Oilers had four more wins than Mario's first year Pens. Mario's second year Pens had five more wins than Wayne's second year Oilers. Both teams were bad to start. Wayne set the single season points mark of 164 in his second year while the next three Oilers had 75, 63 and 60 points. When Espo set the mark of 152 a decade earlier the next three Bruins had 139, 116 and 105 points. In Mario and Wayne's four highest scoring seasons each, the Pens had 604 more powerplays than the Oilers. In 1985-86 when Mario had 141 points and won his first Pearson and Wayne set the record of 215 points, the Pens had 130 more powerplays. Wayne had no limits to his scoring while Mario was very limited. Mario never actually scored over 122 points or was ever on pace to score more than 144 points in a season where the Pens averaged less than five powerplays per game. All of his big seasons came when the Pens averaged more than five or six pp per game. Wayne scored three of his 200+ point seasons in seasons where the Oilers averaged less than four powerplays per game. Mario needed tons of powerplays to score big. No hall of famers were brought in to help Wayne while six hall of famers were brought in to help Mario win something. Wayne led his team in scoring in all six finals he played in. Mario led his team in scoring in one out of the two finals he was in. Wayne is also the leading scorer in best on best international tournaments all time. Mario was great, just not Gretzky great.
Pour moi il n y a aucun doute,Mario Lemieux le magnifique est le plus grand de tout les temps pour 2 raisons 1 si il aurait ete en santé toute sa carriere il aurait fait mieux et 2 la meilleure raison,sans rien enlever a Gretzky si Lemieux avait eu le choix de jouer dans une equipe toute etoiles comme les Oilers de l epoque et non les pauvres Penguins,il n aurait pas ete seul et il aurait pu faire autant de points que Gretzky dans les années 80. Lemieux a ete seul longtemps a Pittsburgh avant d avoir une equipe comme Edmonton. Sa saison de 160 points en 60 matchs le prouve,il etait le joueur avec les meilleurs mains de l histoire du hockey. Gretzky avait le record de 51 matchs consecutif avec 1 point. Mario etait a quoi 46? Ma memoire me joue des tours mais a cause de son foutu dos. Oui avec des si ont peut en faire des choses mais les stats parlent beaucoup. Quand il a pris sa premiere retraite,il etait le seul joueur a avoir une moyenne de 2 points par match. Meme Gretzky n a pas ca. Il y a un gars qui avait compilé une carriere complete de Lemieux de 82 matchs par saison juste avec sa moyenne de points de ces saisons et il arrivait au constat que Lemieux et superieur a Gretzky niveau stats. Ca fait trop longtemps mais j ai trouvé ca tres interessant. Bref soyons fier que les 2 plus grand de tout les temps soient 2 joueurs Canadiens
Lemieux was still in his prime when he retired the first time... If Gretzky retires that early he would have had 2+ points per game as well and a higer 2+ than Lemieux... Lemieux was definitely the guy to challenge Gretzky records if health didn't fail him BUT he definitely would not have had more Career points... He definitely could have scored more goals..
every thing is debatable. But some facts still remain after 40 yrs Gretz 50 in 39 200 + pts 4 x's most playoff points in one stanley cup win. Most points in regular and playoff seasons. I really dont need to list ALL the facts. They were the 2 most dominate players of their respected era's. They also teamed up for the best hockey ever played in 1987 Canada cup. Gretz most points and assists Mario most goals. It was like watching hockey porn
one thing: Gretzky play with betters players than Mario . When he start with Pittsburgh is first 5 years Mario are completely alone in this club. Later players like Jagr , Trottier or Francis arrive but generally Gretzky play with better players
Gretzky had the better career and was a hell of a player. Probably the best assist man ever. But Mario,in my opinion was the better player and the greatest goal scorer ever. Had he been healthy,Lemieux probably would've scored 1,000 goals. Plus,even when he did play later on,he played at less that 100% because of his back and cancer,but still was the best player on the ice. I consider Mario the most talented player to ever play.
that can also be said about gretzky and his herneated disc that required surgery to save his career and he was never 100 again after. injuries happen. and this cancer took his career talk needs to stop , it was a total of 20 missed games and when he came back not a step was missed. he maybe lost out on 17 points, its not a big deal. but im far and awaytaking the guy who has a 1000 point lead over everyone and that wouldnt change even if mario played a longer career. it could just as easly be said gretzkys was cut short from injury, 1400 games is no where near the top. imagine if gretzky hung it up after the 91 season back injury when he was at the same 900 games as lemieux but well over 2000 points and a ppg at 2.42 a number mario would never have touched even if he never had a a single injury.
I always like to imagine 5 Lemieux's playing against 5 Gretzky's at their prime in a game. I think Lemieux's size, strength, speed, and talent would win most games. Lemieux was rarely denied a goal on a breakaway/penalty shot as well. Even Gretzky said himself that Lemieux was probably more talented.
A bunch of experts also thought that the one Wayne Gretzky would get killed in the league. Look how he proved the experts wrong. Big strong Mario could only play in 66% of his team's games while little Wayne played in just under 94% of his team's games. It seems size and strength don't always beat the smarter brain.
By the end of his second nhl season Mario Lemieux had a hard time to lace his skates before the game because his back. Without this all his career and cancer and a return when he was out of his prime he still has the best goal average per game. Without his injuries he would have reach wayne stats without the league protecting him like wayne was and wayne played with Judi, messier, Coffey, 2-3 goons defending him plus the league and refs.
If the league and the refs were protecting Wayne, why did the Pens rank 1st in the league in powerplay chances over Wayne's first nine seasons while Edmonton ranked 18th in a 21 team league? How come in Coffey's last two years in Edmonton, the Oilers had 613 pp chances but the Pens had 991 pp chances in his first two years in Pittsburgh? In 85-86 when Wayne had 215 points and Mario had 141 points, why did the Pens have 130 more pp chances? Seems the league and refs were trying to help Mario all they could, he just couldn't beat Wayne. From 81-82 to 85-86 Wayne outscored everyone in the league by over 400 points including Coffey and Kurri by over 460 pts each, Anderson by nearly 550 points and Messier by over 600 points. Wayne was absolutely crushing these hall of famers along with all other hof'ers in the league.
Exactly. They mention that Lemieux missed 4 games in his 199 point season, pointing out he could have had 200 points if he had played every game. But when they mentioned he broke Gretzky's Art Ross streak they didn't mention that Gretzky played 13 fewer games than Lemieux that year and had a higher PPG, and as you pointed out they didn't point out the disparity in games played in those playoff years either. A lot of selective reporting to make it sound closer than it is. Not even any mention (unless I missed it?) of Gretzky's 92 goal, 212 point season, let alone his other 200 point seasons, aside from mentioning the 215 in relation to Lemieux's 199.
@@kentmartin9289 - no one ever mentions Gretzky’s best points per game season (1983/84) when he scored 175 points in his first 60 games (blowing Lemieux’s 160 points in 60 games out of the water), and finished with 205 points in only 74 games (2.77 PPG). Funny how Lemieux fans never mention that season when arguing “what ifs” for Mario. Gretzky was on pace for 240 points in 80 games before his 6 game injury (after he scored 153 points in his first 51 consecutive games). That injury really slowed down his momentum when you realize he was averaging 3 PPG his first 51 games (as crazy as it sounds).
I bet that Mario in his prime in 83/84 would make the same or more points than Wayne in 83/84 season. You cant compare it with 92-93 season. The game has changed, it was more defensive. Just look at some videos from early 80s. It was ridiculous, goalies were worse than in 90s. Despite the game has changed, Mario was still dominant, while Wayne points were much lower than in 80s. Waynes injury is nothing compared to Marios cancer.
@@martinvosatka8890 - then why did Gretzky outscore Lemieux in points when they played together on the same team in the 1987 Canada Cup? Same team; same number of games; same opposition; even the same power play. Yet Gretzky finished with 2.33 PPG and Mario finished with 2.0 PPG.
@michaelgriffiths8068 I think in 1987 Canada Cup Wayne was the best player in the tournament. Best playmaker, passer. He was still in his prime, while Mario was still improving his skill, discipline etc. However he was the best shooter in that time already. It would be very interesting to see them in their prime at the same time. Wayne lets say from 82-86 against Mario from 88-92. I think it would be very close.
Gretz v Lemieux debate mirrors Magic v Bird. Throw out the numbers, screw the stats... anyone who got to see these generational talents do their work (work which is fodder for great sport content debate, thus...) consider yourselves fortunate. At the end of the day, who is "better" is an innocuous afterthought.
Winning four Stanley Cups (1984, 1985, 1987 ,1988), Gretzky set records in both regular season and post-season play, holding the record for most career regular season goals (894), assists (1,963), points (2,857) and hat-tricks (50). Stats, not feelings.
I grew up watching both play in their prime. Mario was the most talented player to ever play the game, but Gretzky was undeniably the best. Gretzky blew the entire league away from the first year he entered the NHL. The great players he played with is in large part because he made them great by example. Messier even recounts a story where he visited Gretzky’s house and he saw Gretzky had written how many points his goal was for the next game. He saw how competitive and motivated he was and that motivated him and the rest of the team. By each season’s end, not only did Gretzky demolish the rest of the players on the league in points, but he did the same against his own teammates. No player ever has had a bigger disparity year over year against his teammates or the rest of the league than Gretzky.
Numbers, stats and awards along with cups make it an easy pick for the Great One! Mario was great (top three all time forwards with Gordie included) but his numbers just don’t match up. Health issues definitely impacted his career and that’s the sad part. But even Mario’s top few years just don’t stack up against those of Gretzky.
@@stevendupuis7502 What part of what I said or the facts/stats/data I provided do you "not agree" with? Stats, awards and championships don't lie and clearly point out that Gretzky had a much better and successful career. Even in Mario's prime years, his stats don't match what Wayne was able to accomplish.
Looks to me like Gretzky won every category. More team achievements, better head to head (they didn't even mention that Gretzky outscored Lemieux 60 points to 38 in those 25 head to head games), Individual Achievements, and Records and Statistics. Lemieux the more successful executive, which is a separate discussion from who the best player was. Lemieux is awesome and my second favourite player, but Gretzky wins this in a landslide.
Gretzky had the most assists in league history. In fact, he had more assists than anyone else had total points. If you think about that for just a sec you'll realize there can't be any debate here. And on top of all those assists, Gretzky also had more goals than anyone in history.
There are 2 factors that makes Wayne Gretzky stand out from the other legends and it has to do with Gretzky size, and his genius vision on the ice to dodge injury for most of his career. This was a gift most other greats did not have like Bobby Orr, Mike Bossy, Mario Lemiuex, etc with their careers cut short, but Gretzky under normal circumstances should have been tossed around like a tennis ball in the rink, but his visual instinct kept him from major injuries. This in itself sets him apart and most other greats just did not have that prowess. #2, I never thought it was fair to compare players that play an entire 80 games or close to 80 games and players that only play half or more than half a season. Most players including Gretzky slow down and get fatigued usually in the last half of the season and their PPG reduces a bit. i never thought it was fair to compare players that play only 2/3 a season like Lemieux and then get injured their body was not in full fatigue factor like Gretzky was and had Gretzky played the exact same amount of games as Lemieux during a season his PPG total would be significantly higher. The fatigue factor makes a huge difference on points total and Lemieux took advantage of that.
Lemieux most talented, but greatest/best doesn’t equate to most talented. It’s what you did on the ice that counts and Gretzky by so many objective measures was not only the greatest hockey player, but probably the most dominant player of any of the 4 major N American sports. It’s fun to speculate on what a healthy Mario MIGHT have done, but it’s just conjecture.
@@That90sShow- In head to head games, Gretzky beats Lemieux in points with just his assists alone (and also beats him in goals) even if you just use the games AFTER he was traded to the Kings. But nice try kid.
@@That90sShow as Michael points out, Gretzky played against Lemieux 14 times after leaving the Oilers (when the Penguins were the stacked team). Lemieux and Gretzky each scored 8 goals in those 14 games, but Gretzky had 26 assists to Lemieux's 17 assists (25 points). That's prime Lemieux with a stacked Penguins team, against Gretzky 4 years older on weaker LA (9 games), St. Louis (1 game), and New York Rangers (4 games) teams.
anyone who picks mario over wayne is only over a bias. the better player is clear and in no other sport has such a clear #1. theirs a reason 99 will never be seen again.
Bobby Orr. Five Bobby Orrs blows off by of any other player as competing teams. Bob is the only player in the history of any sport to be the best offensive and the best defensive player in the same years.
I'm a kings fan but not a fan of gretzky, gretzky was selfish and just wanted to keep on winning cups. That's why he didn't retire with the kings. At least mario never left Pittsburgh regardless of not winning a lot of cups, he kept faithful to Pittsburgh and retired with his team that he started with so props to Super Mario.
MARIO - not even close... Mario played with less talented players for several years and did not have an enforcer taking care of him and a League that was told 'not' to hit him like Gretzky ...
Someday, AI will likely have the capacity to accurately model both players and surround them with equally talented teammates to determine who was truly the best.
Even Gretzky said that if Mario was healthy and played 20 season, Mario would have beat most his records. I'm confident that Mario would be one of the only player to hit 1000 goals with most likely Mike Bossy.
this argument is rather silly - like hairs where microns can be involved ... throw in eras, team mates, injuries, opponents, longevity, accomplishments, points, defensive ability === truly endless criteria ... throw in Orr, Messier, Crosby, Brodeur, Roy, Howe, Sakic and more with many players from decades ago ... now we have international Stars in the NHL ...players are better now, teams are better, goalies much better ... let us enjoy the NHL now - always with changes on the horizon ...............
Lemieux! No question. Gretzky was soft and had enforcers protecting him. Lemieux did the unthinkable when he touched the puck. Granted the game has changed and is much faster and skilled than in their era. However Gretzky wouldn’t keep up in today’s league as opposed to Lemieux who would.
Gretzky was soft yet somehow played in just shy of 94% of his team's regular season games. Big strong Mario suited up for just 66% of his games. Wayne and Mario played in "The Enforcer Era", everyone had goons on their teams, even Pittsburgh. Pittsburgh is the team responsible for trading McSorley to Edmonton after he played 15 games with Mario. Even the league was trying to help Mario break Wayne's records but he just wasn't good enough. No team had more powerplay chances in Wayne's first nine seasons than Pittsburgh. Edmonton was ranked 18th out of 21 teams in those nine years. Mario needed 491 powerplays to score 199 points and 500 pp to score 168 points. The Oilers only had 295 pp when Wayne scored 215 points. Mario couldn't really do much without a ton of powerplays. That's one reason why he is not the greatest.
to say gretzky played on better teams shows you dont follow hockey. mario had over a line of top 50 all time players. jagr, trottier, murphy, francis, murphy coffey. is fare more then the messier, kurri,coffey gretzky had.
Ha that's really an answer from a English Canadian chauvinism you are, Orr said Lemieux is the better player that he has never seen and he saw Gretzky et howe
Mario will always get my vote.
Mario Lemieux is the best hockey player to ever put on a pair of ice skates. You all can have #99 and his numerous scoring records... who was blessed with a bundle of talent around him. The eye test is real simple - Lemieux was just better; Better shot, bigger & stronger, longer reach, one-on-one skill not even close, best player ever on a breakaway - a goaltender's complete nightmare.
The myth against Gretz continues....The Pens had more hall of famers on their team than the Oilers. And, more importantly, the Pen hall of famers were hall of famers in their own right while most of the Oiler hall of famers made their careers precisely because of Gretzky. They were both great but approached hockey differently. Lemieux was probably the most individually talented, and I would take him to go one one one against anyone. But hockey is not an individual sport and Gretzky understood this and used it to his advantage more than anyone. Despite being able to go through a team individually, as per many highlights, Gretz used everything available to him to get the greatest advantage...teammates, the boards, the glass, the net, etc. He just understood the game better than anyone. And the objective evidence is clearly out there. They played in the same era and Gretz's numbers per year or career, trophies, and championships speak for themselves. As amazing as Lemieux was, Gretz scored 1,000 points faster than Lemieux, not once but twice. There's a reason why Lemieux chose to wear 66 and why 99 is retired league wide.
TOTALY AGREE WHIT YOU
Yeah the penguins just had no talent you’re right. Gretzky higher ppg despite playing to almost 40 while Mario played almost entirely in prime years. It’s a shame Wayne is so humble bc then people become delusional and actually believe him when he says other guys are better. Not close. GOAT
@@dalton7726
You have good points but it’s closer than you think. The Oilers were basically a wagon from the beginning…while Mario came into a historically bad team. Mario’s health issues alone cost him untold amounts of points. Most impressive to me, and something I believe Gretzky wouldn’t have been able to do, was come back after three years out of the game and absolutely dominate…during the peak of the dead puck era. Gretzky basically retired as the dead puck era got going. Had Lemieux played as many games as Gretzky, they’d be neck and neck.
@@achildr1 Wayne's first year Oilers had four more wins than Mario's first year Pens. Mario's second year Pens had five more wins than Wayne's second year Oilers. Both teams were bad to start. Wayne set the single season points mark of 164 in his second year while the next three Oilers had 75, 63 and 60 points. When Espo set the mark of 152 a decade earlier the next three Bruins had 139, 116 and 105 points. In Mario and Wayne's four highest scoring seasons each, the Pens had 604 more powerplays than the Oilers. In 1985-86 when Mario had 141 points and won his first Pearson and Wayne set the record of 215 points, the Pens had 130 more powerplays. Wayne had no limits to his scoring while Mario was very limited. Mario never actually scored over 122 points or was ever on pace to score more than 144 points in a season where the Pens averaged less than five powerplays per game. All of his big seasons came when the Pens averaged more than five or six pp per game. Wayne scored three of his 200+ point seasons in seasons where the Oilers averaged less than four powerplays per game. Mario needed tons of powerplays to score big. No hall of famers were brought in to help Wayne while six hall of famers were brought in to help Mario win something. Wayne led his team in scoring in all six finals he played in. Mario led his team in scoring in one out of the two finals he was in. Wayne is also the leading scorer in best on best international tournaments all time. Mario was great, just not Gretzky great.
Pour moi il n y a aucun doute,Mario Lemieux le magnifique est le plus grand de tout les temps pour 2 raisons
1 si il aurait ete en santé toute sa carriere il aurait fait mieux et
2 la meilleure raison,sans rien enlever a Gretzky si Lemieux avait eu le choix de jouer dans une equipe toute etoiles comme les Oilers de l epoque et non les pauvres Penguins,il n aurait pas ete seul et il aurait pu faire autant de points que Gretzky dans les années 80. Lemieux a ete seul longtemps a Pittsburgh avant d avoir une equipe comme Edmonton. Sa saison de 160 points en 60 matchs le prouve,il etait le joueur avec les meilleurs mains de l histoire du hockey. Gretzky avait le record de 51 matchs consecutif avec 1 point. Mario etait a quoi 46? Ma memoire me joue des tours mais a cause de son foutu dos. Oui avec des si ont peut en faire des choses mais les stats parlent beaucoup. Quand il a pris sa premiere retraite,il etait le seul joueur a avoir une moyenne de 2 points par match. Meme Gretzky n a pas ca. Il y a un gars qui avait compilé une carriere complete de Lemieux de 82 matchs par saison juste avec sa moyenne de points de ces saisons et il arrivait au constat que Lemieux et superieur a Gretzky niveau stats. Ca fait trop longtemps mais j ai trouvé ca tres interessant. Bref soyons fier que les 2 plus grand de tout les temps soient 2 joueurs Canadiens
Lemieux was still in his prime when he retired the first time... If Gretzky retires that early he would have had 2+ points per game as well and a higer 2+ than Lemieux... Lemieux was definitely the guy to challenge Gretzky records if health didn't fail him BUT he definitely would not have had more Career points... He definitely could have scored more goals..
every thing is debatable. But some facts still remain after 40 yrs Gretz 50 in 39 200 + pts 4 x's most playoff points in one stanley cup win. Most points in regular and playoff seasons. I really dont need to list ALL the facts. They were the 2 most dominate players of their respected era's. They also teamed up for the best hockey ever played in 1987 Canada cup. Gretz most points and assists Mario most goals. It was like watching hockey porn
one thing: Gretzky play with betters players than Mario . When he start with Pittsburgh is first 5 years Mario are completely alone in this club. Later players like Jagr , Trottier or Francis arrive but generally Gretzky play with better players
Они лучше,потому что их таковыми делал Уэйн.Свыше тысячи голевых передач,это все что нужно понимать об этом игроке
Mario gets my vote as the most lethal player to have ever laced up a pair of skates...
Gretzky had the better career and was a hell of a player. Probably the best assist man ever. But Mario,in my opinion was the better player and the greatest goal scorer ever. Had he been healthy,Lemieux probably would've scored 1,000 goals. Plus,even when he did play later on,he played at less that 100% because of his back and cancer,but still was the best player on the ice. I consider Mario the most talented player to ever play.
that can also be said about gretzky and his herneated disc that required surgery to save his career and he was never 100 again after. injuries happen. and this cancer took his career talk needs to stop , it was a total of 20 missed games and when he came back not a step was missed. he maybe lost out on 17 points, its not a big deal. but im far and awaytaking the guy who has a 1000 point lead over everyone and that wouldnt change even if mario played a longer career. it could just as easly be said gretzkys was cut short from injury, 1400 games is no where near the top. imagine if gretzky hung it up after the 91 season back injury when he was at the same 900 games as lemieux but well over 2000 points and a ppg at 2.42 a number mario would never have touched even if he never had a a single injury.
I always like to imagine 5 Lemieux's playing against 5 Gretzky's at their prime in a game. I think Lemieux's size, strength, speed, and talent would win most games. Lemieux was rarely denied a goal on a breakaway/penalty shot as well. Even Gretzky said himself that Lemieux was probably more talented.
A bunch of experts also thought that the one Wayne Gretzky would get killed in the league. Look how he proved the experts wrong. Big strong Mario could only play in 66% of his team's games while little Wayne played in just under 94% of his team's games. It seems size and strength don't always beat the smarter brain.
great video, the caliber of these players is awesome
Mario 😊
66 hands down!
To me it's like asking which is better, this pound of gold or that one.
By the end of his second nhl season Mario Lemieux had a hard time to lace his skates before the game because his back. Without this all his career and cancer and a return when he was out of his prime he still has the best goal average per game. Without his injuries he would have reach wayne stats without the league protecting him like wayne was and wayne played with Judi, messier, Coffey, 2-3 goons defending him plus the league and refs.
He also would have had over 1000 career goals as well. I would argue we never actually saw the real Mario. Was he ever 100%
If the league and the refs were protecting Wayne, why did the Pens rank 1st in the league in powerplay chances over Wayne's first nine seasons while Edmonton ranked 18th in a 21 team league? How come in Coffey's last two years in Edmonton, the Oilers had 613 pp chances but the Pens had 991 pp chances in his first two years in Pittsburgh? In 85-86 when Wayne had 215 points and Mario had 141 points, why did the Pens have 130 more pp chances? Seems the league and refs were trying to help Mario all they could, he just couldn't beat Wayne. From 81-82 to 85-86 Wayne outscored everyone in the league by over 400 points including Coffey and Kurri by over 460 pts each, Anderson by nearly 550 points and Messier by over 600 points. Wayne was absolutely crushing these hall of famers along with all other hof'ers in the league.
“His 44 playoff points was 2nd to Gretzky’s 47 in 1985.”
Gretzky: 18 games (2.61 PPG)
Lemieux: 23 games (1.91 PPG)
Exactly. They mention that Lemieux missed 4 games in his 199 point season, pointing out he could have had 200 points if he had played every game. But when they mentioned he broke Gretzky's Art Ross streak they didn't mention that Gretzky played 13 fewer games than Lemieux that year and had a higher PPG, and as you pointed out they didn't point out the disparity in games played in those playoff years either.
A lot of selective reporting to make it sound closer than it is. Not even any mention (unless I missed it?) of Gretzky's 92 goal, 212 point season, let alone his other 200 point seasons, aside from mentioning the 215 in relation to Lemieux's 199.
@@kentmartin9289 - no one ever mentions Gretzky’s best points per game season (1983/84) when he scored 175 points in his first 60 games (blowing Lemieux’s 160 points in 60 games out of the water), and finished with 205 points in only 74 games (2.77 PPG). Funny how Lemieux fans never mention that season when arguing “what ifs” for Mario. Gretzky was on pace for 240 points in 80 games before his 6 game injury (after he scored 153 points in his first 51 consecutive games). That injury really slowed down his momentum when you realize he was averaging 3 PPG his first 51 games (as crazy as it sounds).
I bet that Mario in his prime in 83/84 would make the same or more points than Wayne in 83/84 season. You cant compare it with 92-93 season. The game has changed, it was more defensive. Just look at some videos from early 80s. It was ridiculous, goalies were worse than in 90s. Despite the game has changed, Mario was still dominant, while Wayne points were much lower than in 80s. Waynes injury is nothing compared to Marios cancer.
@@martinvosatka8890 - then why did Gretzky outscore Lemieux in points when they played together on the same team in the 1987 Canada Cup? Same team; same number of games; same opposition; even the same power play. Yet Gretzky finished with 2.33 PPG and Mario finished with 2.0 PPG.
@michaelgriffiths8068 I think in 1987 Canada Cup Wayne was the best player in the tournament. Best playmaker, passer. He was still in his prime, while Mario was still improving his skill, discipline etc. However he was the best shooter in that time already. It would be very interesting to see them in their prime at the same time. Wayne lets say from 82-86 against Mario from 88-92. I think it would be very close.
Yes, I believe.
Amen.
Gretz v Lemieux debate mirrors Magic v Bird. Throw out the numbers, screw the stats... anyone who got to see these generational talents do their work (work which is fodder for great sport content debate, thus...) consider yourselves fortunate. At the end of the day, who is "better" is an innocuous afterthought.
Winning four Stanley Cups (1984, 1985, 1987 ,1988), Gretzky set records in both regular season and post-season play, holding the record for most career regular season goals (894), assists (1,963), points (2,857) and hat-tricks (50). Stats, not feelings.
I grew up watching both play in their prime. Mario was the most talented player to ever play the game, but Gretzky was undeniably the best. Gretzky blew the entire league away from the first year he entered the NHL. The great players he played with is in large part because he made them great by example. Messier even recounts a story where he visited Gretzky’s house and he saw Gretzky had written how many points his goal was for the next game. He saw how competitive and motivated he was and that motivated him and the rest of the team. By each season’s end, not only did Gretzky demolish the rest of the players on the league in points, but he did the same against his own teammates. No player ever has had a bigger disparity year over year against his teammates or the rest of the league than Gretzky.
Lemieux, no doubt!
Two top dogs that were clearly on a different level than their peers
Wayne clearly has the better career. If I can only have one guy at his best for my life, 66 easily.
Numbers, stats and awards along with cups make it an easy pick for the Great One!
Mario was great (top three all time forwards with Gordie included) but his numbers just don’t match up. Health issues definitely impacted his career and that’s the sad part. But even Mario’s top few years just don’t stack up against those of Gretzky.
Not agree with that!
@@stevendupuis7502 What part of what I said or the facts/stats/data I provided do you "not agree" with?
Stats, awards and championships don't lie and clearly point out that Gretzky had a much better and successful career. Even in Mario's prime years, his stats don't match what Wayne was able to accomplish.
my fantasy stanley cup series....the 1988 Oilers vs. the 1991 Pens.
Looks to me like Gretzky won every category. More team achievements, better head to head (they didn't even mention that Gretzky outscored Lemieux 60 points to 38 in those 25 head to head games), Individual Achievements, and Records and Statistics. Lemieux the more successful executive, which is a separate discussion from who the best player was. Lemieux is awesome and my second favourite player, but Gretzky wins this in a landslide.
Mario or Wayne? Uh Both! This aint no 2010 Jr High Twilight Jacob vs Edward debate after all. 🤣
Mario is awesome probably the second best ever. But it’s not a contest.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I personally like Mario Lemeieux. LEMEIEUX with his hocley stick🏒is like "Thor with his⚒️"
Gretzky will always be the goat imo, if not for injuries and other setbacks for Lemieux then who knows?
Gretzky had the most assists in league history.
In fact, he had more assists than anyone else had total points.
If you think about that for just a sec you'll realize there can't be any debate here.
And on top of all those assists, Gretzky also had more goals than anyone in history.
There are 2 factors that makes Wayne Gretzky stand out from the other legends and it has to do with Gretzky size, and his genius vision on the ice to dodge injury for most of his career. This was a gift most other greats did not have like Bobby Orr, Mike Bossy, Mario Lemiuex, etc with their careers cut short, but Gretzky under normal circumstances should have been tossed around like a tennis ball in the rink, but his visual instinct kept him from major injuries. This in itself sets him apart and most other greats just did not have that prowess. #2, I never thought it was fair to compare players that play an entire 80 games or close to 80 games and players that only play half or more than half a season. Most players including Gretzky slow down and get fatigued usually in the last half of the season and their PPG reduces a bit. i never thought it was fair to compare players that play only 2/3 a season like Lemieux and then get injured their body was not in full fatigue factor like Gretzky was and had Gretzky played the exact same amount of games as Lemieux during a season his PPG total would be significantly higher. The fatigue factor makes a huge difference on points total and Lemieux took advantage of that.
I think Lemieux was a better player by far Gretzky just got lucky by playing with a bunch of great players in oilers Edmonton
Gretzky was beyond his time
Lemieux most talented, but greatest/best doesn’t equate to most talented. It’s what you did on the ice that counts and Gretzky by so many objective measures was not only the greatest hockey player, but probably the most dominant player of any of the 4 major N American sports. It’s fun to speculate on what a healthy Mario MIGHT have done, but it’s just conjecture.
In head to head games, Gretzky destroys Lemieux in points just with his assists alone, and also outscores him in goals as well.
Stanley cup team VS the worse team in the NHL.. Cool story though kid
@@That90sShow- In head to head games, Gretzky beats Lemieux in points with just his assists alone (and also beats him in goals) even if you just use the games AFTER he was traded to the Kings. But nice try kid.
@@That90sShow as Michael points out, Gretzky played against Lemieux 14 times after leaving the Oilers (when the Penguins were the stacked team). Lemieux and Gretzky each scored 8 goals in those 14 games, but Gretzky had 26 assists to Lemieux's 17 assists (25 points). That's prime Lemieux with a stacked Penguins team, against Gretzky 4 years older on weaker LA (9 games), St. Louis (1 game), and New York Rangers (4 games) teams.
Yes and he was never injured and he was also playing almost 600 more games then lemieux my god you have to start to use your small brain lolife
@@hanslilja3873 - 600 more games? We are talking only about their head to head games here (that they played against each other).
I will vote wayne gretzky #1 and #2 Mario lemeiux. .because wayne gretzky greatest hockey ever
Gretz
anyone who picks mario over wayne is only over a bias. the better player is clear and in no other sport has such a clear #1. theirs a reason 99 will never be seen again.
Bobby Orr.
Five Bobby Orrs blows off by of any other player as competing teams. Bob is the only player in the history of any sport to be the best offensive and the best defensive player in the same years.
I'm a kings fan but not a fan of gretzky, gretzky was selfish and just wanted to keep on winning cups. That's why he didn't retire with the kings. At least mario never left Pittsburgh regardless of not winning a lot of cups, he kept faithful to Pittsburgh and retired with his team that he started with so props to Super Mario.
MARIO 66 the best of the best
Anyone who knows hockey knows Gretzky was better. Statistically its not even close but people are entitled to their opinion.
KING OF KINGS GOD OF GODS MARIO THE MAGNIFICENT ONE LEMIEUX THE GREATEST ISHOCKEY PLAYER IN THE HISTORY NO QUESTION ABOUT THAT END OF THE STORY ❤❤❤❤❤
MARIO - not even close... Mario played with less talented players for several years and did not have an enforcer taking care of him and a League that was told 'not' to hit him like Gretzky ...
Someday, AI will likely have the capacity to accurately model both players and surround them with equally talented teammates to determine who was truly the best.
Even Gretzky said that if Mario was healthy and played 20 season, Mario would have beat most his records. I'm confident that Mario would be one of the only player to hit 1000 goals with most likely Mike Bossy.
this argument is rather silly - like hairs where microns can be involved ... throw in eras, team mates, injuries, opponents, longevity, accomplishments, points, defensive ability === truly endless criteria ... throw in Orr, Messier, Crosby, Brodeur, Roy, Howe, Sakic and more with many players from decades ago ... now we have international Stars in the NHL ...players are better now, teams are better, goalies much better ... let us enjoy the NHL now - always with changes on the horizon ...............
66
Lemieux! No question. Gretzky was soft and had enforcers protecting him. Lemieux did the unthinkable when he touched the puck. Granted the game has changed and is much faster and skilled than in their era. However Gretzky wouldn’t keep up in today’s league as opposed to Lemieux who would.
Gretzky was soft yet somehow played in just shy of 94% of his team's regular season games. Big strong Mario suited up for just 66% of his games. Wayne and Mario played in "The Enforcer Era", everyone had goons on their teams, even Pittsburgh. Pittsburgh is the team responsible for trading McSorley to Edmonton after he played 15 games with Mario. Even the league was trying to help Mario break Wayne's records but he just wasn't good enough. No team had more powerplay chances in Wayne's first nine seasons than Pittsburgh. Edmonton was ranked 18th out of 21 teams in those nine years. Mario needed 491 powerplays to score 199 points and 500 pp to score 168 points. The Oilers only had 295 pp when Wayne scored 215 points. Mario couldn't really do much without a ton of powerplays. That's one reason why he is not the greatest.
Learn how to pronounce words
to say gretzky played on better teams shows you dont follow hockey. mario had over a line of top 50 all time players. jagr, trottier, murphy, francis, murphy coffey. is fare more then the messier, kurri,coffey gretzky had.
at the end of is career you're playing with the truth
Gretzky > Orr> Lemieux
Ha that's really an answer from a English Canadian chauvinism you are, Orr said Lemieux is the better player that he has never seen and he saw Gretzky et howe
Wayne Gretzky way better then bobby Orr of course 100%
Dude, it’s pronounced Ontar-- never mind … and that was a photo of Toronto, not Brantford .. you lost me early on for this mistake 😂
JJ 6️⃣8️⃣❤
Lemieux.
1:17 those are not his parents 😂 they (Tom and Nancy Matthews) were his billets when he moved to Pittsburgh