Mario Lemieux is the best hockey player to ever put on a pair of ice skates. You all can have #99 and his numerous scoring records... who was blessed with a bundle of talent around him. The eye test is real simple - Lemieux was just better; Better shot, bigger & stronger, longer reach, one-on-one skill not even close, best player ever on a breakaway - a goaltender's complete nightmare.
The myth against Gretz continues....The Pens had more hall of famers on their team than the Oilers. And, more importantly, the Pen hall of famers were hall of famers in their own right while most of the Oiler hall of famers made their careers precisely because of Gretzky. They were both great but approached hockey differently. Lemieux was probably the most individually talented, and I would take him to go one one one against anyone. But hockey is not an individual sport and Gretzky understood this and used it to his advantage more than anyone. Despite being able to go through a team individually, as per many highlights, Gretz used everything available to him to get the greatest advantage...teammates, the boards, the glass, the net, etc. He just understood the game better than anyone. And the objective evidence is clearly out there. They played in the same era and Gretz's numbers per year or career, trophies, and championships speak for themselves. As amazing as Lemieux was, Gretz scored 1,000 points faster than Lemieux, not once but twice. There's a reason why Lemieux chose to wear 66 and why 99 is retired league wide.
Yeah the penguins just had no talent you’re right. Gretzky higher ppg despite playing to almost 40 while Mario played almost entirely in prime years. It’s a shame Wayne is so humble bc then people become delusional and actually believe him when he says other guys are better. Not close. GOAT
@@dalton7726 You have good points but it’s closer than you think. The Oilers were basically a wagon from the beginning…while Mario came into a historically bad team. Mario’s health issues alone cost him untold amounts of points. Most impressive to me, and something I believe Gretzky wouldn’t have been able to do, was come back after three years out of the game and absolutely dominate…during the peak of the dead puck era. Gretzky basically retired as the dead puck era got going. Had Lemieux played as many games as Gretzky, they’d be neck and neck.
@@achildr1 Wayne's first year Oilers had four more wins than Mario's first year Pens. Mario's second year Pens had five more wins than Wayne's second year Oilers. Both teams were bad to start. Wayne set the single season points mark of 164 in his second year while the next three Oilers had 75, 63 and 60 points. When Espo set the mark of 152 a decade earlier the next three Bruins had 139, 116 and 105 points. In Mario and Wayne's four highest scoring seasons each, the Pens had 604 more powerplays than the Oilers. In 1985-86 when Mario had 141 points and won his first Pearson and Wayne set the record of 215 points, the Pens had 130 more powerplays. Wayne had no limits to his scoring while Mario was very limited. Mario never actually scored over 122 points or was ever on pace to score more than 144 points in a season where the Pens averaged less than five powerplays per game. All of his big seasons came when the Pens averaged more than five or six pp per game. Wayne scored three of his 200+ point seasons in seasons where the Oilers averaged less than four powerplays per game. Mario needed tons of powerplays to score big. No hall of famers were brought in to help Wayne while six hall of famers were brought in to help Mario win something. Wayne led his team in scoring in all six finals he played in. Mario led his team in scoring in one out of the two finals he was in. Wayne is also the leading scorer in best on best international tournaments all time. Mario was great, just not Gretzky great.
I always like to imagine 5 Lemieux's playing against 5 Gretzky's at their prime in a game. I think Lemieux's size, strength, speed, and talent would win most games. Lemieux was rarely denied a goal on a breakaway/penalty shot as well. Even Gretzky said himself that Lemieux was probably more talented.
A bunch of experts also thought that the one Wayne Gretzky would get killed in the league. Look how he proved the experts wrong. Big strong Mario could only play in 66% of his team's games while little Wayne played in just under 94% of his team's games. It seems size and strength don't always beat the smarter brain.
@dannycarlow8204 Talk to the league about how Gretzky was protected from day 1. Watch documentaries on Gretzky and you'll soon find out that there was "an unwritten rule" to not hurt Gretzky. If you disobey, they secretly gun you down on the ice with goons from many teams.
Gretzky had the better career and was a hell of a player. Probably the best assist man ever. But Mario,in my opinion was the better player and the greatest goal scorer ever. Had he been healthy,Lemieux probably would've scored 1,000 goals. Plus,even when he did play later on,he played at less that 100% because of his back and cancer,but still was the best player on the ice. I consider Mario the most talented player to ever play.
that can also be said about gretzky and his herneated disc that required surgery to save his career and he was never 100 again after. injuries happen. and this cancer took his career talk needs to stop , it was a total of 20 missed games and when he came back not a step was missed. he maybe lost out on 17 points, its not a big deal. but im far and awaytaking the guy who has a 1000 point lead over everyone and that wouldnt change even if mario played a longer career. it could just as easly be said gretzkys was cut short from injury, 1400 games is no where near the top. imagine if gretzky hung it up after the 91 season back injury when he was at the same 900 games as lemieux but well over 2000 points and a ppg at 2.42 a number mario would never have touched even if he never had a a single injury.
@@moody9442 Gretzky played the 25th most games of all time. How do you know Mario wouldn't have reached 2000 points? You can't just use career ppg as the argument because if Mario hadn't gotten injured, his ppg would be weighted more heavily towards his prime, which is what he missed. Gretzky already had his prime before his injury, so it's less impactful for him. Either you're an absolute moron, or you're being intentionally obtuse. In either case, I can tell you didn't actually watch them play, but as someone who did, I can confidently say that Mario was a better player than Wayne.
By the end of his second nhl season Mario Lemieux had a hard time to lace his skates before the game because his back. Without this all his career and cancer and a return when he was out of his prime he still has the best goal average per game. Without his injuries he would have reach wayne stats without the league protecting him like wayne was and wayne played with Judi, messier, Coffey, 2-3 goons defending him plus the league and refs.
If the league and the refs were protecting Wayne, why did the Pens rank 1st in the league in powerplay chances over Wayne's first nine seasons while Edmonton ranked 18th in a 21 team league? How come in Coffey's last two years in Edmonton, the Oilers had 613 pp chances but the Pens had 991 pp chances in his first two years in Pittsburgh? In 85-86 when Wayne had 215 points and Mario had 141 points, why did the Pens have 130 more pp chances? Seems the league and refs were trying to help Mario all they could, he just couldn't beat Wayne. From 81-82 to 85-86 Wayne outscored everyone in the league by over 400 points including Coffey and Kurri by over 460 pts each, Anderson by nearly 550 points and Messier by over 600 points. Wayne was absolutely crushing these hall of famers along with all other hof'ers in the league.
@dannycarlow8204 There was an unwritten NHL rule there buddy. If you watch Gretzky's hockey video titled "Above and Beyond", you will hear the voice over narrator literally say out loud "there is an unwritten rule in the league", not to mess with the Great One basically. This was ADMITTED by his own account. He was protected and the queen himself could not be hit or the perpetrators would face goon squads and enforcers targeting them. The league had a wimpy, scrawny golden cash cow in their hands, and could not have him hurt or rightfully targeted. Face the music, Gretzky was a wimp. A skinny, pimply crybaby who sucked on Glen Sathers soother he gave Wayne between periods. Refs finally had to call penalties against Mario as he steamrolled through the middle, unstoppable. Nobody could stop him. Gretzky was too scared to try it after Bill McCreary flattened his boney ass. He hid out along the boards playing hot potato with the puck, even hiding behind the net, terrified he would be hit.
Pour moi il n y a aucun doute,Mario Lemieux le magnifique est le plus grand de tout les temps pour 2 raisons 1 si il aurait ete en santé toute sa carriere il aurait fait mieux et 2 la meilleure raison,sans rien enlever a Gretzky si Lemieux avait eu le choix de jouer dans une equipe toute etoiles comme les Oilers de l epoque et non les pauvres Penguins,il n aurait pas ete seul et il aurait pu faire autant de points que Gretzky dans les années 80. Lemieux a ete seul longtemps a Pittsburgh avant d avoir une equipe comme Edmonton. Sa saison de 160 points en 60 matchs le prouve,il etait le joueur avec les meilleurs mains de l histoire du hockey. Gretzky avait le record de 51 matchs consecutif avec 1 point. Mario etait a quoi 46? Ma memoire me joue des tours mais a cause de son foutu dos. Oui avec des si ont peut en faire des choses mais les stats parlent beaucoup. Quand il a pris sa premiere retraite,il etait le seul joueur a avoir une moyenne de 2 points par match. Meme Gretzky n a pas ca. Il y a un gars qui avait compilé une carriere complete de Lemieux de 82 matchs par saison juste avec sa moyenne de points de ces saisons et il arrivait au constat que Lemieux et superieur a Gretzky niveau stats. Ca fait trop longtemps mais j ai trouvé ca tres interessant. Bref soyons fier que les 2 plus grand de tout les temps soient 2 joueurs Canadiens
Lemieux was still in his prime when he retired the first time... If Gretzky retires that early he would have had 2+ points per game as well and a higer 2+ than Lemieux... Lemieux was definitely the guy to challenge Gretzky records if health didn't fail him BUT he definitely would not have had more Career points... He definitely could have scored more goals..
every thing is debatable. But some facts still remain after 40 yrs Gretz 50 in 39 200 + pts 4 x's most playoff points in one stanley cup win. Most points in regular and playoff seasons. I really dont need to list ALL the facts. They were the 2 most dominate players of their respected era's. They also teamed up for the best hockey ever played in 1987 Canada cup. Gretz most points and assists Mario most goals. It was like watching hockey porn
one thing: Gretzky play with betters players than Mario . When he start with Pittsburgh is first 5 years Mario are completely alone in this club. Later players like Jagr , Trottier or Francis arrive but generally Gretzky play with better players
@@quebecforce111 The two top 20 all time scorers that Wayne played with were #3 Mark Messier and #16 Paul Coffey. The top 20 scorers that Mario played with were #2 Jaromir Jagr, #5 Ron Francis, #15 Mark Recchi, #16 Paul Coffey and #19 Bryan Trottier. Along with having Coffey who is also the #2 all time scoring defensemen, Mario also played with the #5 highest scoring defensemen (Larry Murphy) at the same time. The Oiler hall of famers weren't great to start. Look at Coffey, in his first two years with Wayne he averaged .785 points per game but in his first two years with Mario he averaged 1.487 points per game. Messier had 33 points in his first year, 63 points in his second. Wayne had 205 more points than Messier over their first two years. In Wayne's first two years he played 159 games and scored 301 points. In those same two years, Messier, Kurri, Coffey, Anderson and Lowe played 497 games and scored 314 points. That's right, it took those five hall of famers 338 more games (that's over four seasons worth of games for a single player) than Wayne to score 13 more points over those two years.
@dannycarlow8204 Nonsense. Coffey never played even close to the number of games with Lemieux as he did with Gretzky. 88-89 saw both Mario and Coffey play nearly a full season, and Mario nails 199 points in 76 games. Coffey was traded in 91-92. Mario missed almost the entire 90-91 season before winning the cup. Gretzky played an enormous amount of games with Coffey as both were playing near full seasons together for a much longer time. You mention Trottier playing with Lemieux. Big deal. He was mostly washed up and more of a motivator/leader at that point. Recchi did not play a ton of games with Lemieux either and was also traded in 91. You also forgot to include Kurri and Robitaille at #23 and #24 all time points leaders who played TONS of games with Gretzky.
@dannycarlow8204 Let's not forget that the Coffey trade LITERALLY dethroned Gretzky's 8 straight Art Ross run. In 87-88 Lemieux took over as he now had Coffey, but Coffey missed a fair bit that first season in Pittsburgh, yet Mario still won the Art Ross. Than came 88-89, both played together a lot that year and Lemieux had 199 points when Coffey was with him full-time. 89-90 saw Lemieux get a herniated spinal disc, causing his 46 consecutive point streak to come short of Gretzky's 51 record. 90-91 Mario played just over 20 games all season, and that was the last season Coffey was a Penguin. They only played one near full season together. Whereas Gretzky played with Coffey for a lot of full seasons.
@@АндКузнецов yes , i dont want denigrate Gretzky but Mario it's a fact when he start is career in the NHL with Pittsburgh the team are going nowhere and have 0 good players. The first 5 years he are completely alone in this team but make players who are not good at all like Carson (if i remember ) a scorer of 50 goals. Lemieux score at is first game, first shift in the NHL. He have cancer and have really big back problem. In the NHL you have 2 players : Gretzky and Lemieux. after that you have a really big gap
Exactly. They mention that Lemieux missed 4 games in his 199 point season, pointing out he could have had 200 points if he had played every game. But when they mentioned he broke Gretzky's Art Ross streak they didn't mention that Gretzky played 13 fewer games than Lemieux that year and had a higher PPG, and as you pointed out they didn't point out the disparity in games played in those playoff years either. A lot of selective reporting to make it sound closer than it is. Not even any mention (unless I missed it?) of Gretzky's 92 goal, 212 point season, let alone his other 200 point seasons, aside from mentioning the 215 in relation to Lemieux's 199.
@@kentmartin9289 - no one ever mentions Gretzky’s best points per game season (1983/84) when he scored 175 points in his first 60 games (blowing Lemieux’s 160 points in 60 games out of the water), and finished with 205 points in only 74 games (2.77 PPG). Funny how Lemieux fans never mention that season when arguing “what ifs” for Mario. Gretzky was on pace for 240 points in 80 games before his 6 game injury (after he scored 153 points in his first 51 consecutive games). That injury really slowed down his momentum when you realize he was averaging 3 PPG his first 51 games (as crazy as it sounds).
I bet that Mario in his prime in 83/84 would make the same or more points than Wayne in 83/84 season. You cant compare it with 92-93 season. The game has changed, it was more defensive. Just look at some videos from early 80s. It was ridiculous, goalies were worse than in 90s. Despite the game has changed, Mario was still dominant, while Wayne points were much lower than in 80s. Waynes injury is nothing compared to Marios cancer.
@@martinvosatka8890 - then why did Gretzky outscore Lemieux in points when they played together on the same team in the 1987 Canada Cup? Same team; same number of games; same opposition; even the same power play. Yet Gretzky finished with 2.33 PPG and Mario finished with 2.0 PPG.
@michaelgriffiths8068 I think in 1987 Canada Cup Wayne was the best player in the tournament. Best playmaker, passer. He was still in his prime, while Mario was still improving his skill, discipline etc. However he was the best shooter in that time already. It would be very interesting to see them in their prime at the same time. Wayne lets say from 82-86 against Mario from 88-92. I think it would be very close.
I grew up watching both play in their prime. Mario was the most talented player to ever play the game, but Gretzky was undeniably the best. Gretzky blew the entire league away from the first year he entered the NHL. The great players he played with is in large part because he made them great by example. Messier even recounts a story where he visited Gretzky’s house and he saw Gretzky had written how many points his goal was for the next game. He saw how competitive and motivated he was and that motivated him and the rest of the team. By each season’s end, not only did Gretzky demolish the rest of the players on the league in points, but he did the same against his own teammates. No player ever has had a bigger disparity year over year against his teammates or the rest of the league than Gretzky.
@NS-ie2ld How could Mario possibly have those numbers with a mid eighties start on the worst team in a Patrick division? Gretzky had 1 year experience in the WHA with the Oilers and got yo destroy the Smythe division weaklings. The Oilers had 2 bad seasons to Gretzky's start of his career, but lo and behold, they still made the playoffs because of the shittiest division in NHL history. Once Gretzky left the dynasty he couldn't win anything other than a Lady Byng or an Art Ross when Mario was hurt or sick. The Oilers won a cup 2 years after his departure. Messier won 2 without Gretzky. Gretzky was a secondary assists expert by the 90's
@kingcarriere8323 The first year the Oilers made the playoffs so did the Pens without Lemieux. Oilers wouldn’t have made the playoffs without Gretzky that year. And making the playoffs back then was relatively easy with 16 out of the top 21 teams getting in. Lemieux’s best point total was 199 points. Gretzky topped that 4 times. Lemieux’s best plus minus season was +55. Gretzky topped that 6 times. Gretzky had more than double the point total of the next top player on his team twice. Lemieux accomplished that same feat once and that was only because the one guy he doubled played 7 fewer games than he did that year. Gretzky made those around him better as I already said. Gretzky was self motivated to be the best from day one. Messier had a measly 33 points the year Gretzky tied for first in the scoring title their first year. Messier, and the other eventual star Oilers, never would have become the players they did without Gretzky. Lemieux likely never would have been the other worldly player he eventually became without playing with and seeing Gretzky’s drive and determination first hand in the 87 Canada cup. There are interviews of him saying what an inspiration Gretzky was to him. It was after that experience Lemieux truly took off to be an even more dominant force in the game. Up until then he was known as a tremendously talented player but also a floater. No one ever accused Gretzky of being a floater. He came in guns blazing from day one. Doesn’t matter if he played one year in the WHA starting as 17 yr old there. He was always on fire as a professional. Gretzky was never the same player after the Suter hit. Unfortunately injuries are part of the game, as they were for Lemieux. You can only measure what they did with or without injury. I’m saying all this with tremendous respect and admiration for what Lemieux accomplished. I won playoff hockey pools with Lemieux on my team. Funny enough, when I was a kid, we had a no Gretzky rule for our hockey pools. Anyone lucky enough to pick first would have had an overwhelming advantage over everyone else if they were allowed to pick Gretzky on their team. As I said, Lemieux was the most talented player I’ve ever seen, but Gretzky was the best not only for what he accomplished individually but for raising the play of those around him.
@NS-ie2ld You can't make people better. You can teach them. Either they have the talent, or they don't. If Gretzky was so good at making people better around him, than why as a coach was he so awful? His coaching record was 143-161-24. Than he left coaching for good as he was heavily criticized. As soon as Betzky left, the coyotes were winning again and made the playoffs. Coincidence? Wayne had a great team of Oiler talent. The Oilers all won the cup without Gretzky in 1990. Shortly after he left. Messier led the Rangers to the cup, Gretzky couldn't come close. He coughed the puck lazily to Yzerman in '96 while he was a Blue, costing the team the series in overtime. It was Messier who carried that team with size, strength, and determination. The Oilers made Gretzky. Gretzky won peanuts and a handful of Lady Byngs afterwards.
@NS-ie2ld As for the Suter hit, Mario went through that daily in Pittsburgh in the Patrick. Guys cross checking, tackling, hooking, taking shots at Mario. Gretzky was like the Dalai Lama of the league. Refs feared there jobs were gone if no penalty was called when Wayne took a dive when touched. That's why he was called a crybaby his whole career. There are videos of Wayne slowly backing into a referee he didn't see behind him, and he literally dives to the ground, whimpering, only to look up in embarrassment of the ref standing above him. He was a big baby. Admit it.
@NS-ie2ld You conveniently avoided the Penguins missing the playoffs for 4 consecutive years with Mario to start his career. From 1984-85, to '87-'88. They were 2 win above .500 in '88 and still missed the playoffs. So wonder his playoffs stats are lower. Gretzky had 2 bad seasons with the Oilers as a whole team in '79-80, and '80-'81. They got put on a pedestal and carried by stupid unfair rules the league had. The Smythe was the dumping grounds of WHA garbage. High offense, no defense games, allowing Gretzky to amass untouchable numbers. He was a great legend, but the only reason Mario couldn't reach those totals was missed games from cancer and injury, along with a horrible team in a tough division the first 6 years of his career.
Gretz v Lemieux debate mirrors Magic v Bird. Throw out the numbers, screw the stats... anyone who got to see these generational talents do their work (work which is fodder for great sport content debate, thus...) consider yourselves fortunate. At the end of the day, who is "better" is an innocuous afterthought.
Numbers, stats and awards along with cups make it an easy pick for the Great One! Mario was great (top three all time forwards with Gordie included) but his numbers just don’t match up. Health issues definitely impacted his career and that’s the sad part. But even Mario’s top few years just don’t stack up against those of Gretzky.
@@stevendupuis7502 What part of what I said or the facts/stats/data I provided do you "not agree" with? Stats, awards and championships don't lie and clearly point out that Gretzky had a much better and successful career. Even in Mario's prime years, his stats don't match what Wayne was able to accomplish.
Gretzky had the most assists in league history. In fact, he had more assists than anyone else had total points. If you think about that for just a sec you'll realize there can't be any debate here. And on top of all those assists, Gretzky also had more goals than anyone in history.
Winning four Stanley Cups (1984, 1985, 1987 ,1988), Gretzky set records in both regular season and post-season play, holding the record for most career regular season goals (894), assists (1,963), points (2,857) and hat-tricks (50). Stats, not feelings.
While Wayne had four 200+ seasons, he actually scored 200+ points at five different ages. His birthday splits his seasons. At age 20 he had 217 pts in 84 games, at 21 he had 204 pts in 80 games, at 22 he had 221 pts in 79 games, at 24 he had 204 pts in 81 games and at 25 he had 205 pts in 80 games. Mario's birthday comes days before the season so each of his seasons are all played at the same corresponding age to that age season.
Mario was more naturally skilled for sure, probably more than any other player in History. Gretsky had amazing vision and solid team mates to turn those into points.
Mario I would say the most gifted Goal scorer for sure, Wayne was on a totally different level as an over all player of the craft. Those other players became stars because one reason Wayne Gretzky. Its a shame about Mario's health issues but we did get to see them actually play together and totally prove to the world they were the 2 best on the planet in the 87' Canada cup series. The 3CP1 soviet team was the greatest of all time for sure.
Mario, hands down... Best athlete ever ! And just to answer your last question (will Lemieux would have done more ?), you have to remember this: At his first retirement, Lemieux had OVER 2 points per game ! The only one to do that... So yes, with 572 more game played (7 seasons as you said), Lemieux would have crushed Gretzky's points record.
Looks to me like Gretzky won every category. More team achievements, better head to head (they didn't even mention that Gretzky outscored Lemieux 60 points to 38 in those 25 head to head games), Individual Achievements, and Records and Statistics. Lemieux the more successful executive, which is a separate discussion from who the best player was. Lemieux is awesome and my second favourite player, but Gretzky wins this in a landslide.
@kentmartin9289 Wayne Gretzky, Mark Messier, Jari Kurri, Glenn Andersen, Kent Nilsson, Kevin Lowe, Charlie Huddy, Grant Fuhr Mario Lemieux, Doug Shedden, Wayne Babych, Mike Bullard, Randy Cunneyworth. You wonder why Wayne beat Mario head to head? Look at Mario's teammates up until 1990-91, where he finally receives huge help like Gretzky. One on one, Lemieux would dominate Gretzky. Bigger, stronger, faster, better shot, longer reach, better dekes, fakes, and stick handler, softer hands, better hitter, better fighter, equal passer.
@@kingcarriere8323 regarding head to head games, Gretzky outscores Lemieux even if you only count after he left the Oilers. In 14 games head to head after Gretzky was traded away from the Oilers (and Pittsburgh was a powerhouse team in those days), they each had 8 goals in those 14 games, Gretzky had 26 assists, and Lemieux had 17 assists. So Lemieux had fewer points (25) than Gretzky had assists (26) in those 14 games.
@@kingcarriere8323 P.S. I just looked up your cherry picked list of teammates. Guess who from your lists were able to score 50 goals in a season without Gretzky or Lemieux being their teammate. Wayne Babych (54 goals in 1980-81), and Mike Bullard (51 goals in 1983-84). Messier only had one 50 goal season ever, and never did without Gretzky as a teammate. Kurri had 4, never without Gretzky as a teammate. Anderson had 2, both with Gretzky as a teammate. Kent Nilsson never had a 50 goal season (and only played 17 games with Gretzky). Kevin Lowe and Charlie Huddy were never goalscorers. Gretzky's teammates did help him of course, it's a team game, but it really gets exaggerated how great his teammates were and how bad Lemieux's teammates were.
@kentmartin9289 You're making me look better every word you say. Wayne Babych had 54 goals in the WHA era while playing on the the Blues who were in the SMYTHE DIVISION in 80-81. He than plummeted the year after St. Louis left to the Norris in 81-82, he never did well in goals ever again. Of his 10 year career, 25% of his total goals were scored in one season (80-81) in the Smythe division. That's unbelievable.
@@kentmartin9289 You're actually arguing that Messier wasn't a factor in Gretzky's high points when he is 3rd on the all-time points list. You're sinking yourself deeper and deeper into the abyss of idiocracy.
Mario also won 3 Stanley’s as an owner, so technically, he won 5 Stanley’s to Gretzkys 4. Because let’s be honest, Gretzky could play but couldn’t transition to any other position and be successful. So overall, I would want Mario on my team vs Gretzky. I like how they mention, the oilers were stacked when Gretzky was there and Mario had to slog for at least 5 years until he had talent to work along side him.
In Wayne's first two years he played 159 games and had 301 points. In those same two years, Messier, Lowe, Coffey, Kurri and Anderson played 497 games and had a combined total of 314 points. These are the hall of famers that are supposed to be responsible for every point Wayne ever scored yet it took these guys 338 more games to score 13 more points than Wayne in the first two years of the Oilers' existence. Not sure I would say the Oilers were stacked from the beginning. In Wayne's second year he broke Espo's points record and Orr's assists record that were both set in 70-71. The top four scoring Bruins that year had 152, 139, 116 and 105 pts. (the only four players to score 100 in the league that year) When Wayne broke those records in 80-81 the top four scoring Oilers had 164, 75, 63 and 60 pts. Kurri's 75 points was good enough for 35th in league scoring.
Bobby Orr. Five Bobby Orrs blows off by of any other player as competing teams. Bob is the only player in the history of any sport to be the best offensive and the best defensive player in the same years.
There are 2 factors that makes Wayne Gretzky stand out from the other legends and it has to do with Gretzky size, and his genius vision on the ice to dodge injury for most of his career. This was a gift most other greats did not have like Bobby Orr, Mike Bossy, Mario Lemiuex, etc with their careers cut short, but Gretzky under normal circumstances should have been tossed around like a tennis ball in the rink, but his visual instinct kept him from major injuries. This in itself sets him apart and most other greats just did not have that prowess. #2, I never thought it was fair to compare players that play an entire 80 games or close to 80 games and players that only play half or more than half a season. Most players including Gretzky slow down and get fatigued usually in the last half of the season and their PPG reduces a bit. i never thought it was fair to compare players that play only 2/3 a season like Lemieux and then get injured their body was not in full fatigue factor like Gretzky was and had Gretzky played the exact same amount of games as Lemieux during a season his PPG total would be significantly higher. The fatigue factor makes a huge difference on points total and Lemieux took advantage of that.
@@That90sShow- In head to head games, Gretzky beats Lemieux in points with just his assists alone (and also beats him in goals) even if you just use the games AFTER he was traded to the Kings. But nice try kid.
@@That90sShow as Michael points out, Gretzky played against Lemieux 14 times after leaving the Oilers (when the Penguins were the stacked team). Lemieux and Gretzky each scored 8 goals in those 14 games, but Gretzky had 26 assists to Lemieux's 17 assists (25 points). That's prime Lemieux with a stacked Penguins team, against Gretzky 4 years older on weaker LA (9 games), St. Louis (1 game), and New York Rangers (4 games) teams.
Lemieux easily would have had 2000+ if he didn’t retire in 97 and if he wasn’t injured my lord this would have been such a close case. He played in a harder era then Gretzky, so to me he’s the greatest ever and the biggest what if in any sport
anyone who picks mario over wayne is only over a bias. the better player is clear and in no other sport has such a clear #1. theirs a reason 99 will never be seen again.
Lemieux most talented, but greatest/best doesn’t equate to most talented. It’s what you did on the ice that counts and Gretzky by so many objective measures was not only the greatest hockey player, but probably the most dominant player of any of the 4 major N American sports. It’s fun to speculate on what a healthy Mario MIGHT have done, but it’s just conjecture.
Someday, AI will likely have the capacity to accurately model both players and surround them with equally talented teammates to determine who was truly the best.
I'm a kings fan but not a fan of gretzky, gretzky was selfish and just wanted to keep on winning cups. That's why he didn't retire with the kings. At least mario never left Pittsburgh regardless of not winning a lot of cups, he kept faithful to Pittsburgh and retired with his team that he started with so props to Super Mario.
MARIO - not even close... Mario played with less talented players for several years and did not have an enforcer taking care of him and a League that was told 'not' to hit him like Gretzky ...
this argument is rather silly - like hairs where microns can be involved ... throw in eras, team mates, injuries, opponents, longevity, accomplishments, points, defensive ability === truly endless criteria ... throw in Orr, Messier, Crosby, Brodeur, Roy, Howe, Sakic and more with many players from decades ago ... now we have international Stars in the NHL ...players are better now, teams are better, goalies much better ... let us enjoy the NHL now - always with changes on the horizon ...............
Lemieux! No question. Gretzky was soft and had enforcers protecting him. Lemieux did the unthinkable when he touched the puck. Granted the game has changed and is much faster and skilled than in their era. However Gretzky wouldn’t keep up in today’s league as opposed to Lemieux who would.
Gretzky was soft yet somehow played in just shy of 94% of his team's regular season games. Big strong Mario suited up for just 66% of his games. Wayne and Mario played in "The Enforcer Era", everyone had goons on their teams, even Pittsburgh. Pittsburgh is the team responsible for trading McSorley to Edmonton after he played 15 games with Mario. Even the league was trying to help Mario break Wayne's records but he just wasn't good enough. No team had more powerplay chances in Wayne's first nine seasons than Pittsburgh. Edmonton was ranked 18th out of 21 teams in those nine years. Mario needed 491 powerplays to score 199 points and 500 pp to score 168 points. The Oilers only had 295 pp when Wayne scored 215 points. Mario couldn't really do much without a ton of powerplays. That's one reason why he is not the greatest.
Even Gretzky said that if Mario was healthy and played 20 season, Mario would have beat most his records. I'm confident that Mario would be one of the only player to hit 1000 goals with most likely Mike Bossy.
to say gretzky played on better teams shows you dont follow hockey. mario had over a line of top 50 all time players. jagr, trottier, murphy, francis, murphy coffey. is fare more then the messier, kurri,coffey gretzky had.
you listed murphy twice (and he's nowhere near top 50), trottier was a 3rd line role player by the time he got to pittsburgh, and only jagr and francis stayed around for any significant length of time. yes, most of the time, 99 had the better team. 66 scored 199 points when the second best forward on his team was rob brown. he scored 160 points in 60 games with cancer and a wonky back. that was a pace of 97-127-224 for a full season. he scored 76 points in 43 games at 35 y/o after not playing for 3.5 years - in the dead puck era.
Ha that's really an answer from a English Canadian chauvinism you are, Orr said Lemieux is the better player that he has never seen and he saw Gretzky et howe
Mario will always get my vote.
Mario gets my vote as the most lethal player to have ever laced up a pair of skates...
Mario Lemieux is the best hockey player to ever put on a pair of ice skates. You all can have #99 and his numerous scoring records... who was blessed with a bundle of talent around him. The eye test is real simple - Lemieux was just better; Better shot, bigger & stronger, longer reach, one-on-one skill not even close, best player ever on a breakaway - a goaltender's complete nightmare.
The myth against Gretz continues....The Pens had more hall of famers on their team than the Oilers. And, more importantly, the Pen hall of famers were hall of famers in their own right while most of the Oiler hall of famers made their careers precisely because of Gretzky. They were both great but approached hockey differently. Lemieux was probably the most individually talented, and I would take him to go one one one against anyone. But hockey is not an individual sport and Gretzky understood this and used it to his advantage more than anyone. Despite being able to go through a team individually, as per many highlights, Gretz used everything available to him to get the greatest advantage...teammates, the boards, the glass, the net, etc. He just understood the game better than anyone. And the objective evidence is clearly out there. They played in the same era and Gretz's numbers per year or career, trophies, and championships speak for themselves. As amazing as Lemieux was, Gretz scored 1,000 points faster than Lemieux, not once but twice. There's a reason why Lemieux chose to wear 66 and why 99 is retired league wide.
TOTALY AGREE WHIT YOU
Yeah the penguins just had no talent you’re right. Gretzky higher ppg despite playing to almost 40 while Mario played almost entirely in prime years. It’s a shame Wayne is so humble bc then people become delusional and actually believe him when he says other guys are better. Not close. GOAT
@@dalton7726
You have good points but it’s closer than you think. The Oilers were basically a wagon from the beginning…while Mario came into a historically bad team. Mario’s health issues alone cost him untold amounts of points. Most impressive to me, and something I believe Gretzky wouldn’t have been able to do, was come back after three years out of the game and absolutely dominate…during the peak of the dead puck era. Gretzky basically retired as the dead puck era got going. Had Lemieux played as many games as Gretzky, they’d be neck and neck.
@@achildr1 Wayne's first year Oilers had four more wins than Mario's first year Pens. Mario's second year Pens had five more wins than Wayne's second year Oilers. Both teams were bad to start. Wayne set the single season points mark of 164 in his second year while the next three Oilers had 75, 63 and 60 points. When Espo set the mark of 152 a decade earlier the next three Bruins had 139, 116 and 105 points. In Mario and Wayne's four highest scoring seasons each, the Pens had 604 more powerplays than the Oilers. In 1985-86 when Mario had 141 points and won his first Pearson and Wayne set the record of 215 points, the Pens had 130 more powerplays. Wayne had no limits to his scoring while Mario was very limited. Mario never actually scored over 122 points or was ever on pace to score more than 144 points in a season where the Pens averaged less than five powerplays per game. All of his big seasons came when the Pens averaged more than five or six pp per game. Wayne scored three of his 200+ point seasons in seasons where the Oilers averaged less than four powerplays per game. Mario needed tons of powerplays to score big. No hall of famers were brought in to help Wayne while six hall of famers were brought in to help Mario win something. Wayne led his team in scoring in all six finals he played in. Mario led his team in scoring in one out of the two finals he was in. Wayne is also the leading scorer in best on best international tournaments all time. Mario was great, just not Gretzky great.
I always like to imagine 5 Lemieux's playing against 5 Gretzky's at their prime in a game. I think Lemieux's size, strength, speed, and talent would win most games. Lemieux was rarely denied a goal on a breakaway/penalty shot as well. Even Gretzky said himself that Lemieux was probably more talented.
A bunch of experts also thought that the one Wayne Gretzky would get killed in the league. Look how he proved the experts wrong. Big strong Mario could only play in 66% of his team's games while little Wayne played in just under 94% of his team's games. It seems size and strength don't always beat the smarter brain.
@dannycarlow8204 Talk to the league about how Gretzky was protected from day 1. Watch documentaries on Gretzky and you'll soon find out that there was "an unwritten rule" to not hurt Gretzky. If you disobey, they secretly gun you down on the ice with goons from many teams.
Gretzky had the better career and was a hell of a player. Probably the best assist man ever. But Mario,in my opinion was the better player and the greatest goal scorer ever. Had he been healthy,Lemieux probably would've scored 1,000 goals. Plus,even when he did play later on,he played at less that 100% because of his back and cancer,but still was the best player on the ice. I consider Mario the most talented player to ever play.
that can also be said about gretzky and his herneated disc that required surgery to save his career and he was never 100 again after. injuries happen. and this cancer took his career talk needs to stop , it was a total of 20 missed games and when he came back not a step was missed. he maybe lost out on 17 points, its not a big deal. but im far and awaytaking the guy who has a 1000 point lead over everyone and that wouldnt change even if mario played a longer career. it could just as easly be said gretzkys was cut short from injury, 1400 games is no where near the top. imagine if gretzky hung it up after the 91 season back injury when he was at the same 900 games as lemieux but well over 2000 points and a ppg at 2.42 a number mario would never have touched even if he never had a a single injury.
@@moody9442 Gretzky played the 25th most games of all time. How do you know Mario wouldn't have reached 2000 points? You can't just use career ppg as the argument because if Mario hadn't gotten injured, his ppg would be weighted more heavily towards his prime, which is what he missed. Gretzky already had his prime before his injury, so it's less impactful for him. Either you're an absolute moron, or you're being intentionally obtuse. In either case, I can tell you didn't actually watch them play, but as someone who did, I can confidently say that Mario was a better player than Wayne.
great video, the caliber of these players is awesome
By the end of his second nhl season Mario Lemieux had a hard time to lace his skates before the game because his back. Without this all his career and cancer and a return when he was out of his prime he still has the best goal average per game. Without his injuries he would have reach wayne stats without the league protecting him like wayne was and wayne played with Judi, messier, Coffey, 2-3 goons defending him plus the league and refs.
He also would have had over 1000 career goals as well. I would argue we never actually saw the real Mario. Was he ever 100%
If the league and the refs were protecting Wayne, why did the Pens rank 1st in the league in powerplay chances over Wayne's first nine seasons while Edmonton ranked 18th in a 21 team league? How come in Coffey's last two years in Edmonton, the Oilers had 613 pp chances but the Pens had 991 pp chances in his first two years in Pittsburgh? In 85-86 when Wayne had 215 points and Mario had 141 points, why did the Pens have 130 more pp chances? Seems the league and refs were trying to help Mario all they could, he just couldn't beat Wayne. From 81-82 to 85-86 Wayne outscored everyone in the league by over 400 points including Coffey and Kurri by over 460 pts each, Anderson by nearly 550 points and Messier by over 600 points. Wayne was absolutely crushing these hall of famers along with all other hof'ers in the league.
@dannycarlow8204 There was an unwritten NHL rule there buddy. If you watch Gretzky's hockey video titled "Above and Beyond", you will hear the voice over narrator literally say out loud "there is an unwritten rule in the league", not to mess with the Great One basically. This was ADMITTED by his own account. He was protected and the queen himself could not be hit or the perpetrators would face goon squads and enforcers targeting them. The league had a wimpy, scrawny golden cash cow in their hands, and could not have him hurt or rightfully targeted. Face the music, Gretzky was a wimp. A skinny, pimply crybaby who sucked on Glen Sathers soother he gave Wayne between periods. Refs finally had to call penalties against Mario as he steamrolled through the middle, unstoppable. Nobody could stop him. Gretzky was too scared to try it after Bill McCreary flattened his boney ass. He hid out along the boards playing hot potato with the puck, even hiding behind the net, terrified he would be hit.
Mario 😊
Pour moi il n y a aucun doute,Mario Lemieux le magnifique est le plus grand de tout les temps pour 2 raisons
1 si il aurait ete en santé toute sa carriere il aurait fait mieux et
2 la meilleure raison,sans rien enlever a Gretzky si Lemieux avait eu le choix de jouer dans une equipe toute etoiles comme les Oilers de l epoque et non les pauvres Penguins,il n aurait pas ete seul et il aurait pu faire autant de points que Gretzky dans les années 80. Lemieux a ete seul longtemps a Pittsburgh avant d avoir une equipe comme Edmonton. Sa saison de 160 points en 60 matchs le prouve,il etait le joueur avec les meilleurs mains de l histoire du hockey. Gretzky avait le record de 51 matchs consecutif avec 1 point. Mario etait a quoi 46? Ma memoire me joue des tours mais a cause de son foutu dos. Oui avec des si ont peut en faire des choses mais les stats parlent beaucoup. Quand il a pris sa premiere retraite,il etait le seul joueur a avoir une moyenne de 2 points par match. Meme Gretzky n a pas ca. Il y a un gars qui avait compilé une carriere complete de Lemieux de 82 matchs par saison juste avec sa moyenne de points de ces saisons et il arrivait au constat que Lemieux et superieur a Gretzky niveau stats. Ca fait trop longtemps mais j ai trouvé ca tres interessant. Bref soyons fier que les 2 plus grand de tout les temps soient 2 joueurs Canadiens
Lemieux was still in his prime when he retired the first time... If Gretzky retires that early he would have had 2+ points per game as well and a higer 2+ than Lemieux... Lemieux was definitely the guy to challenge Gretzky records if health didn't fail him BUT he definitely would not have had more Career points... He definitely could have scored more goals..
every thing is debatable. But some facts still remain after 40 yrs Gretz 50 in 39 200 + pts 4 x's most playoff points in one stanley cup win. Most points in regular and playoff seasons. I really dont need to list ALL the facts. They were the 2 most dominate players of their respected era's. They also teamed up for the best hockey ever played in 1987 Canada cup. Gretz most points and assists Mario most goals. It was like watching hockey porn
one thing: Gretzky play with betters players than Mario . When he start with Pittsburgh is first 5 years Mario are completely alone in this club. Later players like Jagr , Trottier or Francis arrive but generally Gretzky play with better players
Они лучше,потому что их таковыми делал Уэйн.Свыше тысячи голевых передач,это все что нужно понимать об этом игроке
@@quebecforce111 The two top 20 all time scorers that Wayne played with were #3 Mark Messier and #16 Paul Coffey. The top 20 scorers that Mario played with were #2 Jaromir Jagr, #5 Ron Francis, #15 Mark Recchi, #16 Paul Coffey and #19 Bryan Trottier. Along with having Coffey who is also the #2 all time scoring defensemen, Mario also played with the #5 highest scoring defensemen (Larry Murphy) at the same time. The Oiler hall of famers weren't great to start. Look at Coffey, in his first two years with Wayne he averaged .785 points per game but in his first two years with Mario he averaged 1.487 points per game. Messier had 33 points in his first year, 63 points in his second. Wayne had 205 more points than Messier over their first two years. In Wayne's first two years he played 159 games and scored 301 points. In those same two years, Messier, Kurri, Coffey, Anderson and Lowe played 497 games and scored 314 points. That's right, it took those five hall of famers 338 more games (that's over four seasons worth of games for a single player) than Wayne to score 13 more points over those two years.
@dannycarlow8204 Nonsense. Coffey never played even close to the number of games with Lemieux as he did with Gretzky. 88-89 saw both Mario and Coffey play nearly a full season, and Mario nails 199 points in 76 games. Coffey was traded in 91-92. Mario missed almost the entire 90-91 season before winning the cup. Gretzky played an enormous amount of games with Coffey as both were playing near full seasons together for a much longer time. You mention Trottier playing with Lemieux. Big deal. He was mostly washed up and more of a motivator/leader at that point. Recchi did not play a ton of games with Lemieux either and was also traded in 91.
You also forgot to include Kurri and Robitaille at #23 and #24 all time points leaders who played TONS of games with Gretzky.
@dannycarlow8204 Let's not forget that the Coffey trade LITERALLY dethroned Gretzky's 8 straight Art Ross run. In 87-88 Lemieux took over as he now had Coffey, but Coffey missed a fair bit that first season in Pittsburgh, yet Mario still won the Art Ross. Than came 88-89, both played together a lot that year and Lemieux had 199 points when Coffey was with him full-time. 89-90 saw Lemieux get a herniated spinal disc, causing his 46 consecutive point streak to come short of Gretzky's 51 record. 90-91 Mario played just over 20 games all season, and that was the last season Coffey was a Penguin. They only played one near full season together. Whereas Gretzky played with Coffey for a lot of full seasons.
@@АндКузнецов yes , i dont want denigrate Gretzky but Mario it's a fact when he start is career in the NHL with Pittsburgh the team are going nowhere and have 0 good players. The first 5 years he are completely alone in this team but make players who are not good at all like Carson (if i remember ) a scorer of 50 goals. Lemieux score at is first game, first shift in the NHL. He have cancer and have really big back problem. In the NHL you have 2 players : Gretzky and Lemieux. after that you have a really big gap
Lemieux, no doubt!
Wayne clearly has the better career. If I can only have one guy at his best for my life, 66 easily.
66 hands down!
To me it's like asking which is better, this pound of gold or that one.
Just so we're clear, it's the pound of gold draped in an Oilers jersey. It shines brighter.
“His 44 playoff points was 2nd to Gretzky’s 47 in 1985.”
Gretzky: 18 games (2.61 PPG)
Lemieux: 23 games (1.91 PPG)
Exactly. They mention that Lemieux missed 4 games in his 199 point season, pointing out he could have had 200 points if he had played every game. But when they mentioned he broke Gretzky's Art Ross streak they didn't mention that Gretzky played 13 fewer games than Lemieux that year and had a higher PPG, and as you pointed out they didn't point out the disparity in games played in those playoff years either.
A lot of selective reporting to make it sound closer than it is. Not even any mention (unless I missed it?) of Gretzky's 92 goal, 212 point season, let alone his other 200 point seasons, aside from mentioning the 215 in relation to Lemieux's 199.
@@kentmartin9289 - no one ever mentions Gretzky’s best points per game season (1983/84) when he scored 175 points in his first 60 games (blowing Lemieux’s 160 points in 60 games out of the water), and finished with 205 points in only 74 games (2.77 PPG). Funny how Lemieux fans never mention that season when arguing “what ifs” for Mario. Gretzky was on pace for 240 points in 80 games before his 6 game injury (after he scored 153 points in his first 51 consecutive games). That injury really slowed down his momentum when you realize he was averaging 3 PPG his first 51 games (as crazy as it sounds).
I bet that Mario in his prime in 83/84 would make the same or more points than Wayne in 83/84 season. You cant compare it with 92-93 season. The game has changed, it was more defensive. Just look at some videos from early 80s. It was ridiculous, goalies were worse than in 90s. Despite the game has changed, Mario was still dominant, while Wayne points were much lower than in 80s. Waynes injury is nothing compared to Marios cancer.
@@martinvosatka8890 - then why did Gretzky outscore Lemieux in points when they played together on the same team in the 1987 Canada Cup? Same team; same number of games; same opposition; even the same power play. Yet Gretzky finished with 2.33 PPG and Mario finished with 2.0 PPG.
@michaelgriffiths8068 I think in 1987 Canada Cup Wayne was the best player in the tournament. Best playmaker, passer. He was still in his prime, while Mario was still improving his skill, discipline etc. However he was the best shooter in that time already. It would be very interesting to see them in their prime at the same time. Wayne lets say from 82-86 against Mario from 88-92. I think it would be very close.
I grew up watching both play in their prime. Mario was the most talented player to ever play the game, but Gretzky was undeniably the best. Gretzky blew the entire league away from the first year he entered the NHL. The great players he played with is in large part because he made them great by example. Messier even recounts a story where he visited Gretzky’s house and he saw Gretzky had written how many points his goal was for the next game. He saw how competitive and motivated he was and that motivated him and the rest of the team. By each season’s end, not only did Gretzky demolish the rest of the players on the league in points, but he did the same against his own teammates. No player ever has had a bigger disparity year over year against his teammates or the rest of the league than Gretzky.
@NS-ie2ld How could Mario possibly have those numbers with a mid eighties start on the worst team in a Patrick division?
Gretzky had 1 year experience in the WHA with the Oilers and got yo destroy the Smythe division weaklings. The Oilers had 2 bad seasons to Gretzky's start of his career, but lo and behold, they still made the playoffs because of the shittiest division in NHL history.
Once Gretzky left the dynasty he couldn't win anything other than a Lady Byng or an Art Ross when Mario was hurt or sick. The Oilers won a cup 2 years after his departure. Messier won 2 without Gretzky. Gretzky was a secondary assists expert by the 90's
@kingcarriere8323
The first year the Oilers made the playoffs so did the Pens without Lemieux. Oilers wouldn’t have made the playoffs without Gretzky that year. And making the playoffs back then was relatively easy with 16 out of the top 21 teams getting in.
Lemieux’s best point total was 199 points. Gretzky topped that 4 times.
Lemieux’s best plus minus season was +55. Gretzky topped that 6 times.
Gretzky had more than double the point total of the next top player on his team twice.
Lemieux accomplished that same feat once and that was only because the one guy he doubled played 7 fewer games than he did that year.
Gretzky made those around him better as I already said. Gretzky was self motivated to be the best from day one. Messier had a measly 33 points the year Gretzky tied for first in the scoring title their first year. Messier, and the other eventual star Oilers, never would have become the players they did without Gretzky. Lemieux likely never would have been the other worldly player he eventually became without playing with and seeing Gretzky’s drive and determination first hand in the 87 Canada cup. There are interviews of him saying what an inspiration Gretzky was to him. It was after that experience Lemieux truly took off to be an even more dominant force in the game. Up until then he was known as a tremendously talented player but also a floater. No one ever accused Gretzky of being a floater. He came in guns blazing from day one. Doesn’t matter if he played one year in the WHA starting as 17 yr old there. He was always on fire as a professional.
Gretzky was never the same player after the Suter hit. Unfortunately injuries are part of the game, as they were for Lemieux. You can only measure what they did with or without injury.
I’m saying all this with tremendous respect and admiration for what Lemieux accomplished. I won playoff hockey pools with Lemieux on my team. Funny enough, when I was a kid, we had a no Gretzky rule for our hockey pools. Anyone lucky enough to pick first would have had an overwhelming advantage over everyone else if they were allowed to pick Gretzky on their team.
As I said, Lemieux was the most talented player I’ve ever seen, but Gretzky was the best not only for what he accomplished individually but for raising the play of those around him.
@NS-ie2ld You can't make people better. You can teach them. Either they have the talent, or they don't.
If Gretzky was so good at making people better around him, than why as a coach was he so awful? His coaching record was 143-161-24. Than he left coaching for good as he was heavily criticized. As soon as Betzky left, the coyotes were winning again and made the playoffs. Coincidence?
Wayne had a great team of Oiler talent. The Oilers all won the cup without Gretzky in 1990. Shortly after he left. Messier led the Rangers to the cup, Gretzky couldn't come close. He coughed the puck lazily to Yzerman in '96 while he was a Blue, costing the team the series in overtime. It was Messier who carried that team with size, strength, and determination. The Oilers made Gretzky. Gretzky won peanuts and a handful of Lady Byngs afterwards.
@NS-ie2ld As for the Suter hit, Mario went through that daily in Pittsburgh in the Patrick. Guys cross checking, tackling, hooking, taking shots at Mario. Gretzky was like the Dalai Lama of the league. Refs feared there jobs were gone if no penalty was called when Wayne took a dive when touched. That's why he was called a crybaby his whole career. There are videos of Wayne slowly backing into a referee he didn't see behind him, and he literally dives to the ground, whimpering, only to look up in embarrassment of the ref standing above him. He was a big baby. Admit it.
@NS-ie2ld You conveniently avoided the Penguins missing the playoffs for 4 consecutive years with Mario to start his career. From 1984-85, to '87-'88. They were 2 win above .500 in '88 and still missed the playoffs. So wonder his playoffs stats are lower. Gretzky had 2 bad seasons with the Oilers as a whole team in '79-80, and '80-'81. They got put on a pedestal and carried by stupid unfair rules the league had. The Smythe was the dumping grounds of WHA garbage. High offense, no defense games, allowing Gretzky to amass untouchable numbers. He was a great legend, but the only reason Mario couldn't reach those totals was missed games from cancer and injury, along with a horrible team in a tough division the first 6 years of his career.
Gretz v Lemieux debate mirrors Magic v Bird. Throw out the numbers, screw the stats... anyone who got to see these generational talents do their work (work which is fodder for great sport content debate, thus...) consider yourselves fortunate. At the end of the day, who is "better" is an innocuous afterthought.
Numbers, stats and awards along with cups make it an easy pick for the Great One!
Mario was great (top three all time forwards with Gordie included) but his numbers just don’t match up. Health issues definitely impacted his career and that’s the sad part. But even Mario’s top few years just don’t stack up against those of Gretzky.
Not agree with that!
@@stevendupuis7502 What part of what I said or the facts/stats/data I provided do you "not agree" with?
Stats, awards and championships don't lie and clearly point out that Gretzky had a much better and successful career. Even in Mario's prime years, his stats don't match what Wayne was able to accomplish.
I will vote wayne gretzky #1 and #2 Mario lemeiux. .because wayne gretzky greatest hockey ever
Gretzky had the most assists in league history.
In fact, he had more assists than anyone else had total points.
If you think about that for just a sec you'll realize there can't be any debate here.
And on top of all those assists, Gretzky also had more goals than anyone in history.
Winning four Stanley Cups (1984, 1985, 1987 ,1988), Gretzky set records in both regular season and post-season play, holding the record for most career regular season goals (894), assists (1,963), points (2,857) and hat-tricks (50). Stats, not feelings.
While Wayne had four 200+ seasons, he actually scored 200+ points at five different ages. His birthday splits his seasons. At age 20 he had 217 pts in 84 games, at 21 he had 204 pts in 80 games, at 22 he had 221 pts in 79 games, at 24 he had 204 pts in 81 games and at 25 he had 205 pts in 80 games. Mario's birthday comes days before the season so each of his seasons are all played at the same corresponding age to that age season.
100 % right.who had the biggest impact ....WAYNE bar none.Mario shares the mountain top of course with Orr and Mr. Hockey
It's funny how nobody asked yet you still decided to share with the class.
@@tmjz7327 Funny, did you ask for the video to be made in the first place? No? Then keep quiet son.
@@dannycarlow8204 Huh? That makes no sense. What are you talking about?
Gretzky was awesome,but Mario is the best for me. Plus,having to battle back problems,anemia AND cancer? He is just amazing!
Mario was more naturally skilled for sure, probably more than any other player in History. Gretsky had amazing vision and solid team mates to turn those into points.
Mario I would say the most gifted Goal scorer for sure, Wayne was on a totally different level as an over all player of the craft. Those other players became stars because one reason Wayne Gretzky. Its a shame about Mario's health issues but we did get to see them actually play together and totally prove to the world they were the 2 best on the planet in the 87' Canada cup series.
The 3CP1 soviet team was the greatest of all time for sure.
Mario, hands down...
Best athlete ever !
And just to answer your last question (will Lemieux would have done more ?), you have to remember this:
At his first retirement, Lemieux had OVER 2 points per game ! The only one to do that...
So yes, with 572 more game played (7 seasons as you said), Lemieux would have crushed Gretzky's points record.
Looks to me like Gretzky won every category. More team achievements, better head to head (they didn't even mention that Gretzky outscored Lemieux 60 points to 38 in those 25 head to head games), Individual Achievements, and Records and Statistics. Lemieux the more successful executive, which is a separate discussion from who the best player was. Lemieux is awesome and my second favourite player, but Gretzky wins this in a landslide.
@kentmartin9289 Wayne Gretzky, Mark Messier, Jari Kurri, Glenn Andersen, Kent Nilsson, Kevin Lowe, Charlie Huddy, Grant Fuhr
Mario Lemieux, Doug Shedden, Wayne Babych, Mike Bullard, Randy Cunneyworth.
You wonder why Wayne beat Mario head to head? Look at Mario's teammates up until 1990-91, where he finally receives huge help like Gretzky.
One on one, Lemieux would dominate Gretzky. Bigger, stronger, faster, better shot, longer reach, better dekes, fakes, and stick handler, softer hands, better hitter, better fighter, equal passer.
@@kingcarriere8323 regarding head to head games, Gretzky outscores Lemieux even if you only count after he left the Oilers. In 14 games head to head after Gretzky was traded away from the Oilers (and Pittsburgh was a powerhouse team in those days), they each had 8 goals in those 14 games, Gretzky had 26 assists, and Lemieux had 17 assists. So Lemieux had fewer points (25) than Gretzky had assists (26) in those 14 games.
@@kingcarriere8323 P.S. I just looked up your cherry picked list of teammates. Guess who from your lists were able to score 50 goals in a season without Gretzky or Lemieux being their teammate.
Wayne Babych (54 goals in 1980-81), and Mike Bullard (51 goals in 1983-84).
Messier only had one 50 goal season ever, and never did without Gretzky as a teammate. Kurri had 4, never without Gretzky as a teammate. Anderson had 2, both with Gretzky as a teammate. Kent Nilsson never had a 50 goal season (and only played 17 games with Gretzky). Kevin Lowe and Charlie Huddy were never goalscorers. Gretzky's teammates did help him of course, it's a team game, but it really gets exaggerated how great his teammates were and how bad Lemieux's teammates were.
@kentmartin9289 You're making me look better every word you say.
Wayne Babych had 54 goals in the WHA era while playing on the the Blues who were in the SMYTHE DIVISION in 80-81.
He than plummeted the year after St. Louis left to the Norris in 81-82, he never did well in goals ever again.
Of his 10 year career, 25% of his total goals were scored in one season (80-81) in the Smythe division. That's unbelievable.
@@kentmartin9289 You're actually arguing that Messier wasn't a factor in Gretzky's high points when he is 3rd on the all-time points list. You're sinking yourself deeper and deeper into the abyss of idiocracy.
Mario or Wayne? Uh Both! This aint no 2010 Jr High Twilight Jacob vs Edward debate after all. 🤣
Mario is awesome probably the second best ever. But it’s not a contest.
Two top dogs that were clearly on a different level than their peers
exactly right... Hockey pools in the 80's banned gretzky from the draft doto his domination lol
Yes, I believe.
Amen.
Mario also won 3 Stanley’s as an owner, so technically, he won 5 Stanley’s to Gretzkys 4. Because let’s be honest, Gretzky could play but couldn’t transition to any other position and be successful. So overall, I would want Mario on my team vs Gretzky. I like how they mention, the oilers were stacked when Gretzky was there and Mario had to slog for at least 5 years until he had talent to work along side him.
In Wayne's first two years he played 159 games and had 301 points. In those same two years, Messier, Lowe, Coffey, Kurri and Anderson played 497 games and had a combined total of 314 points. These are the hall of famers that are supposed to be responsible for every point Wayne ever scored yet it took these guys 338 more games to score 13 more points than Wayne in the first two years of the Oilers' existence. Not sure I would say the Oilers were stacked from the beginning. In Wayne's second year he broke Espo's points record and Orr's assists record that were both set in 70-71. The top four scoring Bruins that year had 152, 139, 116 and 105 pts. (the only four players to score 100 in the league that year) When Wayne broke those records in 80-81 the top four scoring Oilers had 164, 75, 63 and 60 pts. Kurri's 75 points was good enough for 35th in league scoring.
Bobby Orr.
Five Bobby Orrs blows off by of any other player as competing teams. Bob is the only player in the history of any sport to be the best offensive and the best defensive player in the same years.
There are 2 factors that makes Wayne Gretzky stand out from the other legends and it has to do with Gretzky size, and his genius vision on the ice to dodge injury for most of his career. This was a gift most other greats did not have like Bobby Orr, Mike Bossy, Mario Lemiuex, etc with their careers cut short, but Gretzky under normal circumstances should have been tossed around like a tennis ball in the rink, but his visual instinct kept him from major injuries. This in itself sets him apart and most other greats just did not have that prowess. #2, I never thought it was fair to compare players that play an entire 80 games or close to 80 games and players that only play half or more than half a season. Most players including Gretzky slow down and get fatigued usually in the last half of the season and their PPG reduces a bit. i never thought it was fair to compare players that play only 2/3 a season like Lemieux and then get injured their body was not in full fatigue factor like Gretzky was and had Gretzky played the exact same amount of games as Lemieux during a season his PPG total would be significantly higher. The fatigue factor makes a huge difference on points total and Lemieux took advantage of that.
In head to head games, Gretzky destroys Lemieux in points just with his assists alone, and also outscores him in goals as well.
Stanley cup team VS the worse team in the NHL.. Cool story though kid
@@That90sShow- In head to head games, Gretzky beats Lemieux in points with just his assists alone (and also beats him in goals) even if you just use the games AFTER he was traded to the Kings. But nice try kid.
@@That90sShow as Michael points out, Gretzky played against Lemieux 14 times after leaving the Oilers (when the Penguins were the stacked team). Lemieux and Gretzky each scored 8 goals in those 14 games, but Gretzky had 26 assists to Lemieux's 17 assists (25 points). That's prime Lemieux with a stacked Penguins team, against Gretzky 4 years older on weaker LA (9 games), St. Louis (1 game), and New York Rangers (4 games) teams.
Yes and he was never injured and he was also playing almost 600 more games then lemieux my god you have to start to use your small brain lolife
@@hanslilja3873 - 600 more games? We are talking only about their head to head games here (that they played against each other).
my fantasy stanley cup series....the 1988 Oilers vs. the 1991 Pens.
Lemieux easily would have had 2000+ if he didn’t retire in 97 and if he wasn’t injured my lord this would have been such a close case. He played in a harder era then Gretzky, so to me he’s the greatest ever and the biggest what if in any sport
Well European football has a lot so not including that sport
Of course wayne gretzky the greatest hockey ever ..but super Mario the great !! 👌💯💪💪
anyone who picks mario over wayne is only over a bias. the better player is clear and in no other sport has such a clear #1. theirs a reason 99 will never be seen again.
Bias ?! You tripping body...
Again, at his 1st retirement, Lemieux had PPG over 2.
The only one to do that.
KING OF KINGS GOD OF GODS MARIO THE MAGNIFICENT ONE LEMIEUX THE GREATEST ISHOCKEY PLAYER IN THE HISTORY NO QUESTION ABOUT THAT END OF THE STORY ❤❤❤❤❤
Gretzky was beyond his time
Lemieux most talented, but greatest/best doesn’t equate to most talented. It’s what you did on the ice that counts and Gretzky by so many objective measures was not only the greatest hockey player, but probably the most dominant player of any of the 4 major N American sports. It’s fun to speculate on what a healthy Mario MIGHT have done, but it’s just conjecture.
Gretzky will always be the goat imo, if not for injuries and other setbacks for Lemieux then who knows?
No questions, it was Super Mario.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I personally like Mario Lemeieux. LEMEIEUX with his hocley stick🏒is like "Thor with his⚒️"
Except Thor always came to play no matter how injured he was. Mario was good to play 66% of the time.(Coincidentally)
I think Lemieux was a better player by far Gretzky just got lucky by playing with a bunch of great players in oilers Edmonton
Someday, AI will likely have the capacity to accurately model both players and surround them with equally talented teammates to determine who was truly the best.
I'm a kings fan but not a fan of gretzky, gretzky was selfish and just wanted to keep on winning cups. That's why he didn't retire with the kings. At least mario never left Pittsburgh regardless of not winning a lot of cups, he kept faithful to Pittsburgh and retired with his team that he started with so props to Super Mario.
Super Mario will always be super Mario the greatest of them all
Anyone who knows hockey knows Gretzky was better. Statistically its not even close but people are entitled to their opinion.
Mario
MARIO - not even close... Mario played with less talented players for several years and did not have an enforcer taking care of him and a League that was told 'not' to hit him like Gretzky ...
Are you saying the league was using the refs in the game to protect Wayne?
this argument is rather silly - like hairs where microns can be involved ... throw in eras, team mates, injuries, opponents, longevity, accomplishments, points, defensive ability === truly endless criteria ... throw in Orr, Messier, Crosby, Brodeur, Roy, Howe, Sakic and more with many players from decades ago ... now we have international Stars in the NHL ...players are better now, teams are better, goalies much better ... let us enjoy the NHL now - always with changes on the horizon ...............
Gretz
MARIO 66 the best of the best
Lemieux! No question. Gretzky was soft and had enforcers protecting him. Lemieux did the unthinkable when he touched the puck. Granted the game has changed and is much faster and skilled than in their era. However Gretzky wouldn’t keep up in today’s league as opposed to Lemieux who would.
Gretzky was soft yet somehow played in just shy of 94% of his team's regular season games. Big strong Mario suited up for just 66% of his games. Wayne and Mario played in "The Enforcer Era", everyone had goons on their teams, even Pittsburgh. Pittsburgh is the team responsible for trading McSorley to Edmonton after he played 15 games with Mario. Even the league was trying to help Mario break Wayne's records but he just wasn't good enough. No team had more powerplay chances in Wayne's first nine seasons than Pittsburgh. Edmonton was ranked 18th out of 21 teams in those nine years. Mario needed 491 powerplays to score 199 points and 500 pp to score 168 points. The Oilers only had 295 pp when Wayne scored 215 points. Mario couldn't really do much without a ton of powerplays. That's one reason why he is not the greatest.
Dude, it’s pronounced Ontar-- never mind … and that was a photo of Toronto, not Brantford .. you lost me early on for this mistake 😂
66
Super Mario was way better then Gretzky
Even Gretzky said that if Mario was healthy and played 20 season, Mario would have beat most his records. I'm confident that Mario would be one of the only player to hit 1000 goals with most likely Mike Bossy.
to say gretzky played on better teams shows you dont follow hockey. mario had over a line of top 50 all time players. jagr, trottier, murphy, francis, murphy coffey. is fare more then the messier, kurri,coffey gretzky had.
at the end of is career you're playing with the truth
you listed murphy twice (and he's nowhere near top 50), trottier was a 3rd line role player by the time he got to pittsburgh, and only jagr and francis stayed around for any significant length of time. yes, most of the time, 99 had the better team. 66 scored 199 points when the second best forward on his team was rob brown. he scored 160 points in 60 games with cancer and a wonky back. that was a pace of 97-127-224 for a full season. he scored 76 points in 43 games at 35 y/o after not playing for 3.5 years - in the dead puck era.
Learn how to pronounce words
Gretzky > Orr> Lemieux
Ha that's really an answer from a English Canadian chauvinism you are, Orr said Lemieux is the better player that he has never seen and he saw Gretzky et howe
Wayne Gretzky way better then bobby Orr of course 100%
@@nelsoncruz63 if i had one to pick to start a team, at guaranteed full health, i'd choose orr over gretzky every time.
JJ 6️⃣8️⃣❤
Lemieux.
Lemieux.