P210 7361K Final Report Update
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 ก.พ. 2023
- P210 7361K Final Report Update
Original Video: • Accident Review P210 ...
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FlyWire is about exploring flight and the freedom this incredible experience brings us on a personal level. Flying has always captured the imagination and excitement of living life to its fullest. Hi, I'm Scott Perdue. In a former life I flew the F-4 and F-15E, more recently I retired from a major airline. I've written for several aviation magazines over the years, was a consultant for RAND, the USAF, Navy, NASA as well as few others, wrote a military thriller- 'Pale Moon Rising' (still on Kindle). But mostly I like flying, or teaching flying. Some of the most fun I had was with Tom Gresham on a TV show called 'Wings to Adventure". We flew lots of different airplanes all over the country. Now with FlyWire I want to showcase the fun in flying, share the joy and freedom of flight and explore the world with you. Make sure you subscribe if you want to go along for the ride!
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All sane people recognize the quality of your work….thank you.
🎯🎯🎯👍
Ignore the noise from elsewhere. You do a great job and this work saves lives.
If ya notice….
Older TH-camrs tend to take exception to those who criticize (troll !) more than the younger ones.
You correct…. Ignore the trollers !!
Always fools with nothing going on in their own lives anyway.
I’m a fellow AF pilot, and think your “reporting” has been excellent. We spent far too much of our lives reading Safety Board findings. As we were taught long ago every accident tells a story, and learning from it to prevent reoccurrence is the real goal.
Scott, you may well be the most careful, deliberate, analytical observer and interpreter of flight incidents around. This flight seems like a cluster of expedience and carelessness that ended as could well have been predicted in advance. Your mission to enlighten without prejudice is unquestioned. Keep it up ! You've been in the sunshine all along.
I second that! You, along with Mentor Pilot, are the most sane, careful and thorough in terms of accident analysis and safety lessons learned on TH-cam that I know of. There are others on TH-cam that are sensationalist and jump to conclusions, but you're not one of them.
We need people like you to do what you're doing Scott. Keep up the good work!
First and foremost, I have watched 90% of your videos. You have, and will always have my highest respect. I started a little rant of my own here and then thought better of it. I just hope you don't let this get to you. I'm sure a lot of us are here for you 100% Thanks for all you do!! --gary
I appreciate that Gary!
I have flown C210 quite a lot and I really like them. However, a couple of pilots mentioned to me a hazard with them in relation to rotating them early. More than other aircraft, they can quickly get behind the lift/drag curve and will accelerate much slower if heavy and lifted early. One of the pilots (my father) related that he very nearly crashed, and was only saved by the fact there were no trees after the (short) strip.
Keep up the good work, Scott. I really appreciate your knowledge and skill in explaining complicated situation.
Scott, you Dan and Juan are doing a fantastic job in analysing these incidents in an attempt to better educate pilots to some of the pitfalls of general aviation and to keep more of them alive.
Whilst I appreciate that in the states there is a vastly greater amount of GA, I'm constantly amazed that here in the UK we have so few fatalities in respect of GA.
It must have something to do with either training, regulation or a better understanding of the need to stick to prescribed limits for the aircraft your flying!
Keep up the great work and ignore the armchair critics, with your background in military aviation and approach to information sharing you have become one of those we look to for balanced analysis of these accidents! Best wishes from the UK 🇬🇧
I believe that you are spot on. Test flights..no unnecessary passengers. Knowing your a/c wt and runway requirements. Check list. Proper rotation speed, and climb speed. And last, but not least, "What If". Keep up your analysis :)
Keep doing what you’re doing Scott. “Keyboard warriors” know a LOT less than they think they do. Carry on sir!
Scott, forget the idiots that criticize your assessment of this accident and any other accident breakdown. I'm a pilot and I greatly appreciate your style and interest in focusing on the lessons we can learn to keep us alive. If your not willing to learn and have the attitude that a good pilot is always learning then, in my humble opinion, your a danger to yourself and anyone who gets in the airplane with you. Keep up the great work!
Thanks, Gunny. Nailed it!
Good job Scott, your opinions are greatly appreciated by all pilots. Another excellent video!
There is always a winger. Empty vessels make the most sound. Keep up the great work Scott.
nice, a new fresh report by Scott!
keep up the great work!
There are several very good channels like mentourpilot and Alec Joshua ibay and blancolirio and Portable cause/DTSB. You all give good content, you all have a different style, but your all a blessing for aviation geeks. Not liking this channel is probably the result of being unable to sit still for ten minutes while listening to a man talking without graphics or a too overtly sales pitch style delivery. However I could listen to Scott for an hour. Well researched, well delivered, straight clear precise and unpretentious. Maybe too "boring" for social media users. But that's THEIR problem of sensory overload
You are very respected
I understand your process, goal, and intention. In my opinion you are sharing information that normally never gets discussed. Keep up the good work. Your commitment to aviation safety is very evident. Thank you.
Thank you for the update Scott! I believe I made several lengthy comments on the original video you mentioned about this incident. Being an aircraft dealer, and having owned and flown at least one copy of every 210 from the 'A' to the P210R and several P210s I am not aware of a Turbocharged P-210 conversion, but I've been out of the business for some time. I have flown Turbo 210s at nearly 300 lbs over gross and once at least 400lbs over gross (with a ferry tank) and if rotated at about 70+ knots and I would estimate takeoff runs were about 20 to 30% beyond normal mostly due to the intentional higher rotation speed ON A STANDARD DAY. I have however experienced situations where above standard days and high density altitudes where T and P 210s performed substantially below book even below gross weight.
I had one situation that almost ended as this incident in a totally stock 75' model T-210 on a 120F day at Mesa AZ aobout 100lbs below gross weight where I rotated about 10kts above recommended rotation speed, and had the hydraulic pump stop half way through the retraction cycle leaving the gear in trail and gear doors open and quickly decelerated from about 85kts to Vx (about 72kts I seem to recall) and started sinking into rising terrain. Pushing the throttle to about 36"hg until the over-pressure pop-off valve started to hiss stopped the decent about 50 feet above some rock piles, and I tried to use the hand pump to extend the gear to land on a road which had the effect of restarting the gear motor which gave me about 100 fpm of climb and later allowed me to retract the gear. At which point the old 210 started to climb about 500 fpm.
My thought in this example, is that if this was in fact, some sort of a turbo-normalized conversion the power may have been significantly less than stock, and when you combine that with the added intake air dilution from the added heat of a turbo at 31"hg vs 34.5" (As I recall on N-model P210s with the 'NB' engines) the engine might have been producing about what you might expect at around 27" of manifold pressure. or about 280hp rather than 300 to 320hp. From experience I have notice that below about 75kts, the later model 210s, the semi-laminar cantilever wings L/D seem to increase much more than other Cessnas with strutted wings, and climb performance degrades rapidly below about 70kts. depending on weight. In any cantilever wing 210, at around 4,000lbs I would expect marginal climb performance and possibly none on a hot or high density altitude takeoff, and possibly no positive climb performance if the engine were not making at least 300hp or rotation was at 55kts.
In Turbocharged aircraft one should also consider the effects induction air temp can have on engine performance. The intake air temp in a turbocharged engine can be 130f or more on takeoff, and 30" of manifold pressure at 130f might be more like 25" MP in a non-turbo engine on the same day. Additionally, inter-cooler systems turbo-charged aircraft might not provide much intake air cooling during takeoff and low climb speeds, and you may be producing lower than cruise book power during takeoff and climb.
I remember your post Jack. Thanks for the observations.
@@FlyWirescottperdue Thanks Scott, I reiterated the experience and thoughts as as my thought is that relating life-threatening "marginal" experiences can help cement the the importance of recognizing situations and the importance of understanding margins and not marginalizing them.
I could relate at least half a dozen more personal example like this that ended up even worst. Once in Canada, we saw two Brothers from Texas and their wives mush into a lake.The pilot drowned. Being part of the rescue attempt, and seeing the devastating effect on the survivors, rescuers and witnesses was a hard lesson and still brings tears today.
Thank you for the time and commitment that you put into these videos. It means the world to a new pilot like me.
You keep doing what you do sir, you are so level headed and just present what you see. Your analysis is generally spot on. Between you, Juan and Dan you guys put enough information out there for us to make our own conclusions.. thank you for what you do. See you at SNF
You bet! Thanks!
Scott,
Thanks for another great analysis. You are one of the top presenters on TH-cam.
I am not current but I find it fascinating to learn about the positive changes in aviation safety since I last flew.
Well said!
This happened in June of 2022. I didn’t look up the weather for that particular day, but it was a brutal summer in Dallas. Not a performance enhancer.
Thankyou Scott, for your videos & your attention to detail. Very informative video, weight & balance !
I think your material is spot on…..keep up the good work. We as pilots need to hear these things to keep the learning process going and that these situations can happen to anyone at anytime.
You and only two others are the best source of Qualified accident commentary for these events. Yeah, Dan and Juan and you. I don’t fly but did many years ago. I appreciate what you try to do and how you do it.
As always, A great review and much to take away from this accident. Thank You.
Scott you do a tremendous job I will
Take your word over any body else.
Thank you very much.
Retired A@P IA 64 years young
I love you so .much Scott your wonderful down to earth commentary and analysis is unparalleled. People love to speak about things they've never done. You have the experience and morals and it shows in every video. Don't even read the comments you don't need the stress. We want you around for a long time. ❤️❤️
Thank you for another great video. I really appreciate hearing your perspectives and learn a lot from your videos. Cheers.
Learning what caused an accident and how the pilot dealt with it could save your life in the future so yes it's very important to study every crash imo.
Thanks for the info 👍🏻✌🏻
Great work, thanks for all you do!
Scott, I have more respect for you and your experience and also your attention to detail than just about any other individual bringing these events to our attention. What you do is appreciated and saves lives. I have no use for the arrogant asses who don’t have a drop of your experience who think they they know better. That actually applies to most of the people with the NTSB making assumptions without flight experience what-so-ever. I’d fly with you anywhere Brother. Hang in there Scott!!!
Scott your presentation and the way you explain things is second to none in my opinion of course. You are no doubt at least getting us to think about these things and I'm pretty sure that's your goal. I want to thank you for taking the time to put the videos together and starting the conversations. You are most definitely making a difference!
Always haters out there hiding behind computer screens. Most realize you are a guy on a TH-cam channel that offers years of expertise on the facts you have at that time. You are unbiased. You give the pros/cons and common sense answer to difficult situations. Love ur videos
The only way others learn is to discuss what happened, up here we had a quarterly publication of helicopter accidents that occurred in that time period worldwide to discuss what happened and how to avoid the same situations that caused it when I was flying, your discussion of fixed wing accidents is the same and a very important part of education that needs to be talked about to help prevent it from happening again. Keep up the great work Flywire and don't let others discourage you from it.
Scott, you bring up a good point as to what to do when you notice an issue with takeoff. For me, if there is anything out of the ordinary I immediately pull the throttle and abort. I have done this 3 times at a Class C airport. The last time it was because I improperly set the takeoff trim on my Bonanza. When I tried to pull the yoke for takeoff it was extremely hard. I didn't hesitate and aborted. I reported to the tower. I received a call from the FSDO and explained what happened and why I aborted the takeoff. Had I tried to take off and try to "work out" the issue once I lifted off, I very much suspect that it would not have ended well. I had too much nose down trim so I would have been fighting the downward trim in a climb -- something I did not want to do.
Great story Al! I think it’s wrong the FSDO called you. That is negative!
@@FlyWirescottperdue it’s was the San Antonio FSDO. Luckily I had a nice agent. According to him new regs required the Tower to report abnormal incidents such as abortive take offs.
Please keep doing EXACTLY what have been doing. You provide excellent, useful content, and it is greatly appreciated, sir.
Gunny, keep on doing what helps the aviation community the way you always have, and as far as the naysayers go, treat their bleating like water off a duck’s back. You have saved lives with your insight and your ability to communicate it. We’re lucky to have you!
Thank you, I will. I appreciate that.
Great job Scott 👍
Thanks for sharing the facts and lessons. Always appreciated. Ignore the keyboard pilots. 🛩️🙂
I've been watching your videos since I got my PPL 15 months ago, and now have nearly 200 hours flying since then, and I need to tell you Scott, your videos are incredibly informative and I've learned so much from them. Keep up the great work, man, we appreciate you!
Great to hear! Keep flying!
Scott, I agree with all the positive comments about your videos and your expertise. I've learned a lot from your videos, thank you.
I learn from each of your videos. Thank you for passing your knowledge and experience on to the aviation community. I am certain you have saved accidents and lives by explaining the mishaps of others. Accidents that didn't happen cannot be measured. Flywire, Blancolirio and Probable Cause are doing an excellent job! Thank you.
So many obvious lessons to be learned here. Great job Scott
. Just the facts says it All...
Scott, I trust you way more than the NTSB. Great work as always.
Great video, Scott, it makes me think more about planning ahead about where I have to be, at rotate speed for what weight that I am flying my bonanza. I do a quick weight and balance for every flight on the bonanza program. We often fly out of Salida Colorado at 7500 feet MSL. High altitude, hot outside temperature, and over gross weight don’t mix well ( even if the runway is a mile and a half long,add to that uphill up wind or down hill, downwind calculations, and it gets even more interesting.
Thanks for sharing James!
You sir are certainly not a Jerk. Keep up the great work!
I know I am just echoing all the overwhelming support I read in the comments, but maybe a few more will put those questionable pundents in their place. For a fact, It goes without saying, but I will say it to those who do not understand; as a USAF fighter pilot, your training, experience, and ingrained situational awareness makes you "uniquely" qualified to express as you do your excellent commentary. Exactly what the general aviation population that never had the opportunity to be trained as you were. I will always have your 6, and I could not think of a wingman that wouldn't want you as flight leader. Now, You are the flight leader for the general aviation community, and may just keep some of them alive! I salute You!
Spot on Scott, keep it up!!!
Other than the partial power actually being full power, you were spot on. Keep 'em coming.
Scott you are right on point, that flight was a disaster from the get go. I also put equal blame on the owner for not doing a weight and balance from the beginning.
Scott, thanks for your valuable insight and efforts. Well done, as always. We all hope that every take off is followed by a relatively uneventful landing. Accident Investigators often say that accidents are a combination of contributing factors. While looking at the NTSB accident report, I noticed that this aircraft was 5 months overdue for an Annual Inspection. The airplane was overloaded by 359 pounds. He had three others on board for a test flight that is normally minimum crew. The pilot tried to lift off at 51 knots, then did lift off at 57 knots, but never reached adequate speed to climb. While the NTSB report showed the pilot had experience, there are several contributing factors that could lead to the pilot having some serious discussions with the FAA and his insurance company.
Neither a jerk nor a bozo. You tell it as you see it and this is what we come to watch. Thanks for your content.
I love your reports. They’re always very professional and it’s obvious you care very much.
Thank you for the work you put into your videos. I always find them educational and informative.
Like I said before, Good analysis of this incident. Thanks.
how to say gross pilot error without saying gross pilot error - we hear you
Another Great Video Scott THANK YOU❤
Thanks for the work you do to attempt to help pilots!
Best!!!
I flew a P-210 many years ago and thought it was under powered for a 6 place plane, Now add tip tanks with full fuel 3 passengers short runway into rising terrain and you are setting yourself up for a crash, Lucky to be alive to tell the story……pilot error all the way, I loved the regular 210 and would fly it over the P model any day!!
Your analysis of evidence is the best on youtube. Keep up the great work as I'm sure you have saved lives.
I've got to believe that when the pilot extricated himself from the wreck he was wearing clown shoes.
Your reporting is factual and honest. Thank you for all the effort!
Thankyou Scott.
I went back and had another look at your first video, and don’t see how that would set off folks and invoke a negative response. Oh well, freedom of speech is a grand benefit we still have. Everything you said, or continue to say, is totally logical and thought provoking. I look forward to your viewpoint and analysis. Of one thing I am certain, I have absolutely no use for the NTSB, whereas I value your thoughts, along with Juan Brown and Dan Gryder. You are all providing a terrific service. Good job.
Seams as everyone is an expert these day. So if they are why are there so many accidents ? My vote is for you. Keep up the good work and above all don't let the turkeys get you down.
Scott, I’m not aware of the remarks made regarding the previous video, but my observation of your channel, you are not the one (or make that Juan) that try’s to be the first to post a video when few facts are available, I like your laid back style and appreciate your vast amount of expertise you bring to the table.
Wow, that was really overweight! I have significant experience flying 2 X P210's, they are a heavy airframe to begin with, as a result of the the structural requirements for pressurisation. I agree with your comments Scott, thankfully no one was killed!
Thank you for another informative video. Keep up the great work making GA safer.
Props to you Scott. True followers of the channel.
So all of the “arm chair pilots” had ample opportunity to respond but chose not to. Quick to point out your flaws, yet not so quick to point out their errors in judgment. Great channel Scott. We appreciate your Nickel on the Grass😄
You have been spot on, Scott! Absolutely neither jerk nor bozo!
My most experience is in a T-210N and it was a great traveling airplane, but I left it in the hangar and bought a ticket on an airline the morning there was an oil spot on the floor under the engine. Lube seal on the turbocharger was leaking….a ticket for an in-flight fire! It ha probably been seeping slowly and I never had an issue. We were the second owners and I suspect the previous owner didn’t take the 2 minutes to let the turbocharger RPM spin down (POH item) before starving it of lubrication by cutting the fuel flow and stopping engine driven oil pump!
Thanks for the help update Scott keep up the great work
Ignore the nay sayers, you do a fantastic job in making the aviation industry much safer and in such an entertaining and understandable manner
I religiously watch Scott's and Blancoliro's videos. I am always trying to learn a new lesson or re-enforce known lessons, and these videos often do that.
Excellent follow up Scott
Great overview as always Scott !
Great video Scott!!! Your insight is always appreciated!
Thanks Wolf, I seem to remember you asking for the update.
Opinions are like... well, you know the rest. I (and Im sure others) learn a lot from you and I know I've become a more aware Pilot from watching your analysis. Keep'em comin!
Thanks for your work (aid) excellent
Great video… thanks for sharing your insights and analysis
Thank you for posting these videos-they are super helpful for me as a student pilot.
Also, just imo, this is like the least click-bait channel on TH-cam, so I have no idea where those comments even came from 😆 Keep this up because it’s doing a lot of good!
You're very welcome!
Both videos were great, Scott, and your ending to the first one was humble and hoping for better. Simply not following the before-takeoff checklist on an uncertain "maintenance" flight, plus passengers which I don't recall ever having onboard for one unless it was a shop tech, raises a red flag. Anytime, and in any way, we reduce margins and then add an overweight condition or other adversity, we are silently saying that we accept a safety-compromised operation and the passengers rarely get a vote on that.
I enjoy your videos and learn from you. Thank you so much.
You are correct that any electrical motor in an Airplane puts a drag on that Airplane's engine.
Any electric motors put an electrical load on the alternator system which is driven by the Airplane's engine which reduces horsepower delivered to the prop.
Of course you can only turn off electric motors that aren't critical for flying that Airplane, i.e. fuel pump, electric gyros etc.
Analytical observer, DAs. Very good job.
Definitely "NO Boz" glad I caught this one Scott.
Sir, you gave a good initial assessment, don't worry about the comments because we all know that the world is full of "experts"
Good job, it comes down to multiple mistakes by each person on board. I don't understand how weight and balance was overlooked by 2 mechanics and 2 pilots on board. There's no excuse for that level of arrogance and complacency.
At least he didn't stall it...He did face the fact that he was going to hit something and lined up on the trees.
First Scott, thank you for your perspective and your efforts. Let me get this straight, new engine, test flight four passengers….. new engine, test flight full fuel….. new engine test flight rotated 20 kn early……. New engine test flight did not use a checklist……. New engine test flight ran the AC during takeoff……. Oh new engine test flight 350 pounds overweight……. Damn……. I can’t imagine how that airplane crashed. I’m really sorry that three people had to go through this traumatic experience. I’m also really sad that a beautiful pressurized 210 was damaged. And I I’m really annoyed that insurance rates on the all 210’s are going to go up because of the decisions this PIC made. Thank God everybody walked away. Some people have no business enjoying the privilege of a pilot certificate.
Good job. Thank you
"I may be a jerk but I am not a bozo!" I like it!
359lbs 😵
I compute a density altitude of 2692' at the time; not even mentioned in the report. Significant to me, even with a turbo. I think your detractors could all agree on one thing: none of them were there at the time. It matters not, to me if some dingaling has flown the airplane...they weren't there either. Keep up your good work!
I've found the same correlation between turbo and normaly aspirated with a Mooney 231 M20K vs a Mooney 201 M20J
You’re doing a great service to air safety for light aircraft operations. Keep up the good work 👍🇺🇦👍🇺🇦
Scott you do a great job. Ignore the noise from lavatory section!