"Just dodge lol" - Repeats one clip of rolling through the hipcheck also, Plesioth can like be designed to do all of the things that you think hipcheck's hitbox accomplishes without also being bullshit.
Likes to Views ratio is still a very solid measurement of how good a video is. This video for example has 0.1 or 10% Likes/Views, which is overwhelmingly positive!
A misaligned hit box will always scream poor design to me. I’m a strong proponent of hitboxes needing to match character models, otherwise you get hit by invisible attacks, and few things are more frustrating in my book than that. But I also agree with most of your points. It makes me think that they should have modified the enemy model to match their desired hit box, instead of blowing up the hit box.
Whenever a video like this releases, it always seems as if the people are just too afraid to counter the shit points made in the video, evident by the fact that after any negative criticism, they immediately say "Good video though, don't take this personally", like, this video isn't good. It just isn't, plain and simple. It treats a bad hitbox as if it's some plan by the developers to inform the player to not attack certain parts, disingenously ignoring the fact that this is the worst way possible to do so IF it was what the devs wanted to do. Whenever I get hit by nothing, It isn't gonna make the player think "Hey, maybe the terrible design is trying to tell me to not attack the legs!", Instead they'll probably think "K. Thanks game, I clearly got hit there." And then they keep fighting. Infact, I could just as easily make the opposite argument: If they didn't want me to attack the legs, why did they make the monster so tall to where the legs are the only place I can hit consistently? This video is bad design, twisted in a way to present it as intentional great design, completely ignoring what the point of a hitbox is: To be as close to the model as possible to where the player can tell where they will and won't get hurt, dodge and punish accordingly. If I spaced out an attack correctly, but it still hit me anyway because of the terrible design, that's an opportunity I missed because of the game's bullshit.
well if one of your friends has to tell you, that his stomache is the weakpoint and you can roll through the hipcheck, or you read about it online, that's one thing but the information is coming from somewhere and the full picture is at the very least logical game design i wasn't thinking too critical about plesioth's hipcheck in 3u but by the time i played gen i was really into it and it just finally hit me when i went to play FU i found the same rules apply the fact he hasn't changed much in his different iterations goes to show, that it's deliberate and makes for a unique problem for the player to deal with
@@user-yw9mw9hv8o The information is coming from somewhere? Have you never seen a game teach a player where to attack without resorting to broken hitboxes? Can you at the very least admit that this is the worst way possible to teach a player where to attack if it is their intention? Which clearly isn't? Here's an example of an effective way to teach players where to attack without resorting to terrible design: In dark souls 3, you fight a dragon called darkeater midir. Attacking the legs is clearly not the best strategy, and the way the game shows this isn't through horrible hitboxes, but through a couple factors: He has an attack where he breathes fire under him, this attack reaches way farther behind him than in front of him, and he also uses this attack way more if you are below him. Most of the attacks he uses whenever the player is directly in front of him also have bigger openings. The reason why making a terrible hitbox doesn't and will never work inspite of what the video maker thinks, is because it doesn't insert the idea into the player's head that THEY are doing something wrong, which is essential. If I am trying to hit his legs, but then I get hit by an attack that wasn't even close to me, what I and most of the world is gonna think, -as evidenced by all of the videos related to plesioth's hitboxes-, isn't "Hey, maybe this is the devs trying to tell me not to attack that part", I'm not gonna think that because if the hitbox DID work, then I would be able to hit the legs flawlessly. Bad hitboxes are bad design, whether or not they want to teach me something by using them. Also, good luck maintaining this standard in the future, since now, whenever you find a terrible hitbox, you're not allowed to complain about them anymore, all I need to do is contrive a reason why they're there and boom.
@@TheActionAsk This guy in general seems to love the first two games, specifically 2, to such an absurd degree he is willing to overlook or even defend any flaws, no matter how egregious. I believe this is the same guy who made a video on MH Dos that's around 4 hours or so, and that video is pretty much the quintessential example of bad video essay: 1. Tons of rambling about just "stuff" that has no impact in the video other than waste time with subjective, irrelevant anecdotes, occupying video space that should've been used to provide examples and argue better instead. 2. Presenting mechanics as if they're objectively better because he subjectively likes them more, leading to a dishonest comparison betweem the current games and Dos just because he needs to tear down what comes after to prop up what came before. I don't think he's a contrarian, he is just terrible at arguing in general, just like 99% of MH TH-camrs he just doesn't go deep enough into the mechanics of the current games to be able to accurately discern where the new ones improve, and where they're worse compared to the previous games. MH TH-camrs are also incapable of separating their feelings from the actual quality of the games, and this guy falls into every single one of these traps.
"Just roll it xd" is just as valid as saying "just roll it xd" at the absurd cooldown roars in Monster Hunter World suffers from. Its inconsistent even with hours of practice and you're not always going to be in a situation where you are immediately able to roll. Also a bit of a contradiction pointing out the hipcheck is a forward facing attack then making the conjecture that players are frustrated by it because of a "conditioning" to attack the sides. Plesioth has his own tail swipe for those moments with its own absurd hitbox. However this hitbox is a bit more immediately understandable because... well, Plesioth is way too tall. It'd never actually hit you otherwise. Make no mistake though, its still infuriating to get hit by because how mh2 camera works, you can't get a good read of his tail's position so you just kind of have to... "know" when to roll/block it. Which is bad.
It's definitely poorly conveyed, even if the challenge is important. They could have designed a move that has a more accurate hitbox but a wider and more dangerous range of movement and area covered, and achieved the same "hitbox" difficulty while also letting players not have to memorize the boundaries of invisible danger zones to counteract it - and it's frankly healthier for a game to not have that kind of dissonance.
Nah, this ain't it chief. They didn't scale up Plesioth's disjointed hitbox for the sake of creating a specific challenge. They scaled up the standard Piscine Wyvern skeleton, along with the standard model hitboxes and designed Plesioth to me much taller and slender without matching the hitboxes to the model. This is lazy, sloppy game design. Hitboxes can indeed be good or bad. Video games are a visual medium. You interact with enemies based on what their model is doing. A good hitbox will be consistent with this model, a bad hitbox will be disjointed, whether its too large so it that players are damaged by attacks the enemy did not hit them with or too small and the enemy's model sails through their character inflicting no damage. I love your content dude, and glad to see you're continuing to make some after you said you probably wouldnt, but I just don't agree with you on this. Either way looking forward to seeing you upload in the future.
The ability to I-frame through the attack doesn't mean the hitbox can be as large as they want. Why would I need to dodge if the model of the monster doesn't come in contact with the my character's model?
If they used those zones for wind pressure effects I wouldn't mind. Sure it'd be annoying but it'd also be believable. Honestly I have less issues with it being a point of damage and more about it dealing full damage. Having multiple layers of hitboxes based on which part connects with the player to have a scaling damage, would probably make fights more easily readable and more easily learnable. It would also be more believable than taking full damage. Though that is just my take on it.
The problem with Plesioth’s hipcheck in gens 1 and 2 from a game design standpoint is that the information conveyed to the player about the move through it’s animation does not teach the right lessons about how to interact when fighting the monster. You see, not only is there a large amount of hitbox dissonance, but the properties of some of the more accurate hitboxes are dissonant as well. Getting hit by the hitbox at a far-away spacing implies that the hitbox is a box check around the monster’s entire model, which completely fails to convey that you should aim for the head instead of the legs. Also, getting flung up into the air after getting hit by a hitbox near the *feet* just doesn’t make a whole lot of sense. Especially in gens 1 and 2.
ideally you shouldn't even go for the head though. The best hitzone is the stomache, so having a big hitbox all over him, that can't move out of, on reaction, while standing at his legs/stomache signalizes you can't go there if it isn't a safe punish. The next level to that design decision is, that it's also able basically regardless of what direction you're rolling in, because it lasts for such a short moment. If you recognize that, you can practice rolling through it and you're rewarded with more openings to attack his weakest hitzone.
@@user-yw9mw9hv8o The problem with trying to use this as a moment to teach the player about rolling I-frames is that no other monster before or after attempts to teach the player about how to use I-frames in this manner, or use it as a part of a fight. In fact, the only other fight I can think of where I-frames are used in any meaningful way is the Dalamadur fight from 4/4U.
@@crimson-foxtwitch2581 nargacuga's tailswipes and pounces cover a lot of space too but are so fast moving, that you can get through them with rolls. many see him as the mentor
well it hasn't changed in 3u and gen/gu so it's cearly deliberate design you can't really outrun it from standing at his weak point, but you can roll through it with some practice, which makes for a pretty unique fight
@@user-yw9mw9hv8o the fact that they didn't change it doesn't mean that is deliberate, a lot of bugs/ mistakes from games do transfer to the sequel (like Luigi's dash attack missing hitbox in Smash 64 and then in Melee). Even if it is deliberate, it's till bad design, hitbox should always be aligned with a visual representation (model, particles or whatever).
While I do agree that the complaining is a little excessive, much of the criticism of plesioth’s hip check is valid. The fair-ness of the attack doesn’t really have anything to do with the players personal experience of the fights difficulty. The attack is unfair because it’s actual hit box extends far beyond the indicators that the game gives the player to inform them of where the hit box should be. This is unfair because it prevents a player from being able to make reasonable judgments as to the range of the attack and thus the player will get hit by the attack at no fault of their own. Regardless of wether or not a player found the plesioth fight difficult it is still unfair to be hit by the hip check while standing a decent distance from the monster on the side opposite the direction it is moving It may have been the intentions of the developers to teach the players to play in a different way but even if that is the case this is a poor way of going about it. Not only does this method break the previously established presidents and rules of what a hip check does in an unfair way but it also prevents the player from properly learning what they are meant to be doing by depriving them of necessary information. Were it to be more adequately indicated to the player that the monster is not to be approached from the sides via well telegraphed and visually clear attacks then the player would come away from the fight with a well developed understanding of that monsters design goals. As Plesioth is the player is left confused and often frustrated by the fight. People do not learn to keep away from the legs because the hip check is viewed as a design flaw, oversight or bug, which is a valid way of looking at it, and thus all lessons the monster may have to teach are dismissed by the player in favour of anger at the monsters unfair design. The hip check may not bother you personally or you may even enjoy it but regardless of your opinion on it the objective fact is that the hip check is bad game design. All that being said I’m a big fan of these videos and am just happy to be discussing monster hunter, especially the old gen games. So please don’t take any of this as hate or anger towards you or the games, just happy to have any discussion about this game no matter how one sided it may end up being.
"People do not learn to keep away from the legs because the hip check is viewed as a design flaw, oversight or bug" you can learn to deal with it. Well it's true to really estimate where the hitbox is gonna be requires some experience because the information isn't given visually, i definitely agree in parts. The hitbox also only accurs for a short period in time which can be avoided with a well timed roll, that also allows you to be close and stay close to his weak points, if you learn to do it consistently. Lastly if you refuse to learn how to deal with a situation because you're looking at it on the surface and think you don't like it, then especially the older games aren't for you. That's not supposed to sound gatekeepy, those games just won't be nice to you if you're trying to circumvent fight mechanics or use brute force without being deliberate. (but you could of course use ranged on plesioth that works too)
@@user-yw9mw9hv8o you may be able to learn to “deal with it” but that doesn’t make it any less unfair. Everyone has to deal with it to beat plesioth. Their feelings on the fight won’t change just because they “got gud” though. The frustration of dealing with something that can only be seen as a trial and error attack rather than a properly telegraphed and designed attack is objectively bad game design. Even if you master the distance of this attack and rolling through it and what not, it’s still poorly designed and is evidence of laziness to properly showcase hitboxes. It can’t be a limitation issue either because there are plenty examples of good hit boxes in the older games. Nargacuga has really good hit boxes outside of some exceptions. Why couldn’t plesioth be the same? Ultimately, it’s either laziness or deliberate bad game design.
@@Fishy_1998yt well i disagree. The fact that it's able pretty much regardless of what direction you roll in, despite being so big, is an obvious design choice and a good one at that. But i agree it's not something you will find out if you do him 3 times in your playthrough and never get back to him because you were frustrated, which is fair. The trial and error part is true and he definitely can be frustrating at first, he was for me too! But once you know what the unique fight he presents is, it requires some practice and experience, if you wanna call that "getin gud" doesn't matter to me, he's really fun to me, and i'm not even at 100% consistency (and i might nevere be!) or reaction rolls to avoid the other moves he can select, i can still push myself further I FUCKING LOVE PLESIOTH. If they added a visual air pressure effect for new players, to better recognize what that hipcheck is, that'd be great. But if the counterplay to that move gets solved as a tightly spacing around kind of situation you lose the unique challenge. That'd be pretty sad to me, because there are plenty of monsters where that's a bigger part of the fight. They don't all have to work the same exact way. They shouldn't. (and i've seen a couple people say fair or unfair and i don't know what to think of it)
@@user-yw9mw9hv8o while it is true that you can learn where the boundaries of its hit box is with experience that is not achievable in a natural play through of any of the games and, regardless of wether or not the player can learn to deal with it, the attack is still unfairly designed. Any design flaw in any game can be dealt with through proper knowledge of the games mechanics but they are still design flaws none the less. And proper, in depth, knowledge of the invisible boundaries of an unintuitive hit box is not something that a dev should expect any of their players to understand inorder to make a fight fair and understandable. Monster hunter’s I frames on rolls are extremely short, this means that I framing an attack with a roll is a high skill option, not the default method of avoiding attacks. Making I frames a necessary part of avoiding an attack would be bad game design because a player cannot be expected to consistently pull off inputs with a mere few frames grace period. Capcom knows this and thus there is no monster in the whole series, I think, that has an attack that would require you to I frame it with a roll provided you have decent positioning. The I frames on a roll still exist as an escape option when a player is caught out of position or as a high skill option to increase uptime but it is not a fundament part of the gameplay and is not a reason as to why an attack is manageable or fair. While I do agree that someone who can’t put up with the plesioth hit box probably won’t really enjoy old gen monster hunter because of the games, shall we say, charm. That should not prevent the games from being judged objectively, regardless of wether or not we love them, and it is the developers job to teach the player how to deal with these situations. Of course many games are often unfairly criticized, monster hunter being one of them, so when discussing wether it is the players fault for not learning or the developers fault for teaching poorly we would have to approach the topic on a case by case basis however, in my eyes, the fact that the issue here could be very reasonably chalked up to a bug, and the fact that it is so unfairly designed, means that the developers did not do a good job at teaching the player the lesson that they had wished too
While yes the player is deprived on the distance the attack can take place, he isn’t deprived of ways to avoid it. Plessioth always does his hip check to his left allowing for players to take advantage of his right leg which makes attacking, rolling through or simply just avoiding his hip check easier to do. Plesioth is very quick in water but slow on land with a lot of attacks being very predictable which lead to baiting his squirt attack and players being able to run in and hit his belly. If you still think it’s bad design just remember that alot of things in monster hunter consists of poor design, your never told the monsters weakness through a big glowing eyeball or part, you have to find it through hitting the different body parts to see the blood splatter and hearing the grating sound, your never told what element to use against the monster or what parts are breakable and your never given its exact location or whereabouts. Monster hunter is a game about trial and experimentation, somethings y aren’t always going to be shown to you straight away and it’s through practicing and discussion can it truly be understood. Plessioth hip check can be summed up like an invisible wall yeah you might bounce into a couple of times but soon you’ll get a feel for where it stands and learn to avoid it.
When people say the Plessy hipcheck hitbox is bad, I know that you are aware that they mean that the animation and the overall range don't match. I don't believe this is intentional and is instead a side effect of Plesioth's scale when compared against it's other cousin of hipchecking, the Cephadrome. Both monsters have dissonant hitboxes, but Plessy's scale amplifies the imperfections of the 'piscine hip check'. But it doesn't matter what I believe; there is also no reason Capcom could not have added something to the animation to make it better represent the large range. In fact, they demonstrate this in the Monster Hunter Stories footage you used; they could've added a wind effect, a shockwave, modified the distance the monster travels in the animation, etc. It seems to me like you are being disingenuous when you argue that the hitbox itself isn't inherently bad, when in reality the complaints stem from the difference between the visual and actual risk. Monster Hunter is an action game, not an RPG. You aren't rolling dice on whether the hit lands or not. Contact should be visually confirmable, or the visuals become cosmetic. After having a look over the vids on your channel I think the thing that sticks out to me the imbalance of criticism on the new monster hunters vs the old ones. I feel like this video is peak of that. I love the old Monster Hunter games, but there is no denying they are incredibly flawed in places. I think you should consider whether or not you are too starstruck or nostalgic for the older games when making arguments like this. Frankly, I find it hard to consider this 'analysis'.
The problem never was the range but understanding the range. It would just require a visual indicator for the actual range of the hipcheck to be fair. (Same goes for Gravios, but for some reason everyone seems to forget OG Gravios had the same problem) It was a nice fight for its time, but it also had this one unfair absence.
My opinion on hitboxes is how it is visualized. Imagine if nergigante did not have the visual of spikes flying off his body during his aoe attacks. Don’t excuse bad design because u can adept to it. This goes for any game. If the devs wanted plesioth’s hip-check to be so disjointed they should have visualized it better. Note: I choose to gun plesioth to avoid his hitboxes. Now the argument between large or tight hitboxes is interesting. However, I will still stand if the attack is not properly visualized to convey to the player where the danger zones are then its bad game design.
i'd say that the visualization aspect is the only issue with his hipcheck it's huge in space but tiny in time, so that you can roll through it and stay closer to his weakest hitzone i'd also say that "large or tight hitboxes" is not an argument to be had, because they make for different challenges, it's a game design decision to utilize one or the other for any particular move
The hipcheck is not an "intentional challenge" it is a result of the limitations of the available tech showing that capcom couldn't make an accurate hitbox at the time.
They still can’t in world Tigrex misses his dash so often My brother is sometimes 10 feet above him with his glaive and tigrex hits him without touching him
“Couldnt make an accurate hitbox at the time” this has to be one of the stupidest things every typed. You’re aware their are around 600 perfectly aligned hitboxes and animations in the game right. So be sure there are around three dismounted now that means they’re incapable of making an accurate hitbox. How dumb are you
On the reason why the plesioth's hitbox was the way it is back then, i've heard the theory that the devs just took cephadrome's hitboxes and scaled that up, which didn't match with plesioth's model proportions, and so resulted in the oversized hipchecks.
i agree with most of your points on old MH, but this one is not one of them. the purpose of a hitbox is to match and represent an action as closely as possible, and trigger scripts when an action is convincing as a collision. i would understand and even be willing to set my grievances aside if the hitbox only extended downward, so the body itself could be implied to have hit. but it extends *backwards*. it's completely mismatched from the action on screen, and with my understanding of the purpose of hitboxes, i see that as an objective failing for a hitbox in a game with combat like Dos. i criticize World for this, and i sure as hell will criticize Dos for it too.
that's like... your opinion of what a hitbox should be though. if you want a visual air pressure kind of indicator for where it's active when it's active, that's fair i guess. But it's not like that isn't something you'll roughly figure out after a few hunts. in my opinion hitboxes are just a part of designing fights/challenges in video games. If it's near impossible to react and move outside of, starting standing at his weakest spot, that's a meaningful game design decision. add to that, that the hitbox is only active for a short moment in time, which makes you able to roll through it in like every direction, is also a meaningful game design decision. in sum that's purposeful design for one of the most unique fights in old mh, to me. And the way that hasn't changed much at all in his newer iterations makes me confidently believe it's intetional.
Soooo, according to the theory in this video, they intentionally made that bullshit hitbox this big to counter the arbitrary placed high damage spot? *I dunno man, seems like bad design to me* To be honest, I think the problem with Plesioth is that it's big, other wyverns with this attack, like Cephadrome, also have this busted hitbox, but it's less noticeable since they're way smaller. Also, I must add, finding a way to work around a poor design (intentional or not) doesn't suddenly make said design good, it's like if I said fire doesn't burn because I don't come close to it, I'm pretty sure me not approaching fire doesn't mean that it doesn't burn anymore. Like dude, you can say it, old MH was a clunky mess of poor design and weird decisions, it won't hurt you.
I think good monster design is when you think its "broken" and "unfair" until you learn its moves, strengths, and weaknesses, to the point where the monster is rather easy. Thats the best overall feeling you get after defeating it, and multiple times afterwards, to craft its gear. When a monster is too easy and has no strengths or nothing to punish you, it becomes stale imo.
the problem with plesioth isn't his strengths and weaknesses. it's that the visual indicator is inaccurate when it should be accurate. Yeah there's work arounds but the hitbox should be accurate in the first place.
While I do see your points and I wouldnt call it bad. I definitely classify the hipcheck as irritating because of how far it extends past his fins. I always blamed it on limitations of the time since as you said every monster had Hitbox Dissonance. But I will say he did teach me about weapon matchups.
The problem is not the size, its the lack of any visual indication of the size and i dont think there is any good argument for that being a good thing.
Plesioth’s hitbox was only bad in Freedom Unite, and the hitbox issue was across the board in that game anyways. In MH2 Dos he is fine. He is very vulnerable against fire weapons. Just roll towards his head when he is about to hip check and you’d be able to dodge it. Dos has actually made me appreciate Plesioth a lot.
This video is just you saying git gud without saying git gud in as many ways as possible. Plesioth’s mhfu hitboxes are straight up terrible and it needs to be known that it’s lazy game design. It’s not like they don’t know how not to make good hitboxes when lavasioth, a monster in similar size and stature to plesioth has some of the best hitboxes in mhfu. When I want to be hit I want it to be my fault, and to actually be hit by the monster for that matter, not by some sloppily made hitbox that looks as if I was hit with dense air. And that doesn’t only apply to the hipcheck, other moves have terrible hitboxes too like the tail swipe. “Deal with it” is a biased excuse. If you want me to not go near plesioth at least give me good game design such as accurate visual indicators instead of leaving a lazy unpolished hitbox because you couldn't bother making a telegraph that shows the whole thing.
i'd say the visual aspect is the only inherently bad part here how many times do you have to get hit by the, be it invisible, hitbox in the same place at the same time before you just accept that it's real and avoid it in space or practice rolling through it? i get it though, i used to be a rager and disregarded things as bs, but if you wanna talk about more than "i can't see the hitbox" plesioth is a pretty unique fight. There's a reason he hasn't changed much in 3u and gen/gu
The only modern mh instance of dissonant hitboxes i can think of would be the aerial hitboxes, i know it’s meant to make it so that insect glaive and the wirebug can’t just dodge every move by being in the air at all times, but damn are they annoying
i feel hitbox dissonance everytime the fragile glitchy engines in combination with the geometries of the terrains in those games make the hitboxes inconsistent, which happens a fair amount. That's a lot more annoying to me personally, than having a hitbox bigger than the model, if it's at least always the same size and shape at the same place outside the model every single time.
My main issue with the hipcheck hitbox was that it still hit you even if you were behind the direction he was attacking it. Like if I was right under him and expect him to hip check, say I roll north before he even starts it up, and he hipchecks to the south, if I'm close enough, not even under him, I'd still get hit by it, and it would launch me south in the direction of the attack and put me back underneath him. That aspect of it was always bad hitbox design to me. Also, I've never heard anyone pronounce the first part of his name like "please" before.
Sorry, but I disagree with this. The only game play aspect plesies wonky hit boxes enforce is frustration. All it does is make you grab a ranged weapon for this single fight because dealing with him in melee is infuriating on a basic level. All it does is make you want to not engage with him at all. He's not a challenge to overcome, he's an annoyance to be avoided. If your idea is what they were going for they failed as far as the vast majority of players are concerned which in fact _does_ make plesioth badly designed as it fails it supposed goal of causing a play style shift. Instead it's just a frustration that nobody ever wants to deal with. Also disagree with your assessment on a fairly fundamental level. Complaining about things is how they get changed. Even if they didn't get patched, and don't kid yourself several monsters in Generations, World and _literally_ all of them in Rise have received attack data tweeks due to fan backlash, they would be more likely to address it in the next game if enough people point it out. Ultimately "shut up and deal with it" (which is pretty much what you're suggesting) is probably the most anti-consumer thing I've ever heard. The game isn't a piece of art, it's a product and if people aren't happy with some component of it they not only have a right to complain they _should._ Politely preferably, but pointing at something and saying "that is bullshit" is actually pretty important information for a company to know. Otherwise they can't improve stuff for next time.
Sure everything you've said and speculated is true enough, but...it's still a bad hitbox, or rather a bad piece of design, because it's completely unintuitive. There is no way to tell just by looking at the anticipation of the move that it's going to be a giant rectangle surrounding both sides of the monster. There's no way to learn where the rear edge of the hitbox is expect by trail and error with no information except the resulting vacuum smack. It actively punishes you for attempting to follow the rules of the game that have been taught without any warning that things are going to be different. It also looks fucking stupid. If it needs to be able to punish players surrounding it then follow the hipcheck with a tail swipe or somesuch. It's not bad because it doesn't serve a purpose, it's bad because it's a failure of design consistency.
I haven't fought older Plesioth, but I agree with almost everything you said here; I only wish there was some kind of particle effect or something to show where the attack hits so it doesn't seem like it comes out of nowhere. I obviously can't speak for anyone else but it pulls me out of the game a bit if I go flying when clearly I wasn't actually hit by the monster.
yeah definitely, it just takes experience of getting hit a lot of times to properly predict it. but the timing of the animation is pretty nice for learning how to roll it at least.
He may have the worst takes most of the time, but he is the only (as far as I'm aware of) MH channel that analyses the series instead of uploading tutorials, news, etc. (or make fanon videos and framing them like actual canon).
Plesioth hitboxes aren't correct, but that doesn't mean the fight is unplayable, it is just the way the monster is. Yes, it would be better if the hitboxes were correct, but even in the old games Plesioth isn't that hard, and the famous body attack can be dodged, I've learned the timing of the attack so I can be hitting it's legs, and when I see the Plesioth is going to do that attack I wait (I say wait, but it's only like a second) until the right moment to press X (PSP), personally I like Plesioth, I think it has very cool design, and the fight I also think is fine, now the only think that I don't like about it is that sometimes Plesioth is swimming and it takes a ling time to get out, yes you can use Frogs or Sonic Bombs, but still I don't like that part of the hunt very much.
I don't mind the hitboxes of plesioth , I am totally fine with where the attack connects, and how it is meant to condition players. I am on board with the idea that certain attacks are being used for a specific challenges or design choices, but in my opinion, visualizing hit boxes shows more attention to detail, and makes the hunts more immersive IMO. I agree that labeling hitboxes "good" or "bad" doesn't really make sense. When I say "bad" I am usually referring to those dissonant hitboxes. And the reason I take issue with plesioth's dissonant hitboxes is because there are multiple examples of other monsters that have animations to properly show the area where the attack is effecting (in older games too, not just 5th gen) Like others have said, it's really his tail swipe I find more egregious than his hip check. It looks awkward and robotic to me, like a wooden board rotating on 2 toothpicks as its axis. yet despite how little it moves, it somehow connects with me when I am standing well underneath it. One of my favorite examples of a larger hitbox visualized well is qurupeco's tail swipe. Initially, the tail is positioned extremely high, and is incredibly small. At first glance, it looks like there's no way that will hit me. BUT the geniuses that designed Quru animated the monster to lower its tail, and fan it out, so it connects with my short hunter. Additionally, it adds to the personality, seeing how this creature can contort its body to attack hunters.
Plesioth trained me to treat any tail swing as a giant hit box under the monster's tail. The hipcheck is one thing that's fun to joke about (and I personally think it looks silly and unsafe to any monster that uses it) but the huge tail is my personal least favorite Plessy attack, because the tail can be so high up, you don't even see it and still can smack you upside the head. It's also consistently way longer than the Plesioth neck, so even attacking the head, you won't be safe (especially without backwards evading, which I'm not convinced would even cover enough distance without World's/Rise's EE3). Conceptually, I think Plessy is good. It's a monster designed to defend itself and play chicken. Lots of "get off me" attacks, a way to retreat (water) and in games with water combat, an AI that sometimes makes it flee back to back (infuriatingly so). I just think the design of the monster should partner with the hitboxes (that, as you said, were probably intentional) better. I like Lavasioth way more, largely because its stout, thicker appearance fixes a lot of the issues Plessy hitboxes have - the tail is usually low enough to definitely hit you instead of the air under it, the legs and body are thicker and closer to the ground so the hipcheck hitbox feels more believable.
Eh, instead of saying why the bad hitbox is good for defending Plesioth you should have said why it was a good fight *despite* its bad hitbox. You're not supposed to force Plesioth out of the water for the whole fight, as you're not supposed to wait while it's in the water. Gen 1 and 2 small monsters where genuinely bigger threaths than the large ones oftentimes, and the game starts with the idea that you should kill them before the Monster comes in the area for avoiding the Vespoid hell the bees are known for. in fact only one, two at best small monsters respawn in pre gen 3 games, while leaving the area the small monsters keep the smae ammount of HP the had before you left and they can't respawn while you're in the zone, except for a few exceptions. With Plesioth you can't: it never leaves the zone it spawns in and that's the gimmick. When Plesioth is underwater you're supposed to take the small monsters out before it goes out (wich are your only windows for attack so you must make them count), while the fish bombs you with attacks that are easy to dodge, but deal high damage. They're basically impossibile to not get hit if you only focus on it, but if you focus also on dodging the small monsters it actually gets pretty intense. The frogs and sonic bombs are for the moment you've killed all the small monsters and you must remove the last HP Plesioth has left.
It all comes down to knowing what you're dealing with. Plesioth has a big and not very clear hitbox in the beginning. That forces you to avoid being near it's legs. Yian garuga has an instant charge, that forces you to not stand in front of the monster. Old MH was all about getting patterns, learning how to dodge and assumption. You have to assume and prepare for the monster more common and "unfair" attack in order to succeed. The modern MH it's about learning how to dodge, reaction time and movement. You can't really predict what the monster will do before the monster attacks. A good example of this is old Zinogre and MHW Zinogre. In MHP3rd Zinogre will always do 3 punches when enraged. That's a pattern you can and should understand to make the fight easier. In MHW the punches are more natural, it's related to the Hunter's position, if you get out of the way it will stop attacking. (why would a oversized lighting dog continue to attack if the target is out of range?) It comes down to adaptation and reaction time, there's a pattern for sure but it is not much exploitable like in the old games. So in the end you just have to deal with that. That's what they were going for when making plesioth. It could easily be resolved by making him smaller (jyuratodus also has a hipcheck and tight hitboxes, but he is small) but it would be plesioth? That's up to Capcom to decide if they want to bring him back of "fix" it hitboxes.
Nice video, i would have liked you to talk about weapon selection too when approaching this monster.... In mhfu (my case) lots of people may start with long sword and completely forget how important is to use a specific weapon for a specific monster. I remember failing every time against Khezu using a long sword when a simple ranged weapon changed completely quest difficulty overcomimg 90% of that monster attacks. With plesioth is the same story, all you sad was correct to me and who plays this game should learn that the best way to avoid being hit by that attack is just approaching it from distance. 😁 Love your videos
True that, but it is extremely immersion breaking when I stand on the other side, not touching the monster, and I get dragged into the attack. Did it feel good to beat it in G rank? Yes. Is it still a layered experience of bullshit? Also yes.
As a "first fleet" hunter (having first played and completed Monster Hunter on the PS2 - Minegarde even), I understand what you're saying. You're commenting on the intention and design within the context of the time of those older games. It makes sense. I don't even remember thinking it was all that bad back then. However, most old hunters I know pine for the immersion. Dissonant hitboxes break immersion - especially now 15 years later. We'd resign ourselves to dissonant hitboxes and try our best to suspend any disbelief when we knew these were the constraints of the time., but those constraints have been melting away and we now know it's possible to achieve that kind of immersion and more! I think the way we can still adhere to the same design principles as those older games while having the tighter hitboxes is to have more complex animations and behaviours. So yeah, in my opinion, it's probably acceptable to call them "bad" hitboxes in the context of our current capabilities - making them tighter more accurately reflects the rules of the world, where "bad" would be elaborated as "doesn't work as expected and we know it could be better". But it makes sense to relax that wording within the context of the time.
Plesioth is one of my favourite monsters tbh. Fighting it so many times, I really grew to appreciate it. I'd hope to see it again in a future game, even if they meme the hip check and make it a super attack with extra particle effects or something that helps to visually 'justify' the larger hitbox. I just wanna see my big fish boy in full HD!
I started with Tri so I never experienced old Plesi but had heard about the hip check. In 3u I used to play a game when carving Plesi to make fun of how crazy his hit boxes were. I would see how far away I could be from his body while still carving. If you kill Plesi underwater you could be 3-hunter's-lengths away from Plesi and still carve. You would just knife that water and get scales. It's pretty wild.
I feel like you see intentions in things where intentions do not lie, like bad hitboxes and what you believe MH 2 is, but sometimes, it's just a matter of bad early game design . You don't see issues like Plesioth's hitbox anymore because they learned to not pull that kind of nonsense, it's a mistake that the hitbox didn't match Plesioth's model, not a challenge put into the game to teach players how to roll through attacks.
So in 2nd gen it was actually just jank BUT going forward in 3U and GU the hitbox is still broken, even though they completely redid it. And maybe you could try to argue that it's still a mistake, but you'd be wrong because the hitbox is spot on in Frontier and it ruins the balance of Plesioth.
I'm actually gonna be sad if they "fix" Plesioth's hitboxes. It's part of his identity as a monster at this point and I feel like "fixing" it will take away from who he is.
In addition to that, the monsters always tend to have a "bigger" hitbox in a certain direction. Plesioths and other monsters hip check is no threat when you evade to it's right side (where the head is). And for example rajangs zick zack charge attack is almost never threatening, when you evade to it's left side. So the early Monster Hunter Monsters, always had an "easy mode" when you knew in which direction you should evade in a given situation.
I don't think the hitbox design was intentional. What I think was that Plesioth was a monster that was supposed to encourage a player to use Lance. His hipcheck even with the tight hitbox is still annoying to avoid + his belly is his best hitzone can only mean that Lance was the perfect weapon against him. Being able to block all of his attacks while still able to constantly hit his belly. Again even without the enlarged hitbox it seems clear to me that Lance has an answer to everything about him back in MH1.
im playing mhfu for the first time now, its been about 100h of the game. o was dreading fighting plesioth, my first try with a sns was bad, so o adapted, bow is great against the fish, no hipcheck problems whatsoever, thats how you solve these type of problems, you learn and adapt
The problem I have with Plesioth is not the size of the hitbox or the playstyle it encourages, it's the visualization of said attack. I wouldn't mind it existing if the hitbox was in some way shape or form visible as an invisible force taking away your health isn't very engaging and takes you out of the experience plus it makes it hard to learn the hitbox's size. However, the hip check isn't even the main problem with Plesioth as it has a clear telegraph and if you just don't over commit like with many other monsters you can fairly react to it (If you are aware of the hitbox's size). The tail swipe is the main problem I have with the Plesioth as it's damage, lack of a telegraph and big hitbox makes it very hard to react to it. If there was a clear telegraph to the tail swipe then the big hitbox on the move would be justified like with the hip check.
Ever since I finally realised Gravios was a good monster, I came to the conclusion that a lot of Monster Hunter fans consider monsters that force them to fight differently to be bad.
I went from carting 3 times to plesioth 4yrs ago to now beating him without carting once. I can use a few weapons ranged was my first but now I use my fav wep gunlance. Im no speed runner but i get the job done
While I do get why people are upset at the hitbox dissonance or at the points you make, I also understand your perspective. The plesioth fight asks of you to not be beneath him, to not be near his legs constantly spamming, but rather to circle him and attack his head whenever he opens himself up for it. In newer games the hitbox is tighter and thus players can attack more often going beneath plesioth, and just like that, the fight is completely changed. MH hitboxes improving is a good thing, butr there's something to say for prefering the slower more methodical fighting in older games with lower health pools but also less attacking. MH can do with good hitboxes, but I'd say that moving on from the current statet of MH, MH could benefit from better tracking in attacks and more attacks made to punish greedy hunters who constantly stand beneath a monster's legs and the like, an example of MHWorld doing this poorly would be Nargacuga, his hitboxes are overly kind, tracking is bad, and he will often bury his tail in the dirt for 8 seconds so anyone can attack him and he even dodges and pounces less than in older games. There's a sweetspot that can be hit here through GOOD game design I'm sure, through fair but tough rules. A combat system always shines when it's put to the test and it can't be put to the test without a challenge, that's why the best experiences with MH are usually the ones where you have to overcome a tough challenge, and not a monster that lets itself be hit and dies in 5 minutes.
@@lewispooper3138 no. But not every monster can be great. There will always be some mediocre monsters. And because of that, others will stand out far more.
Great video! Plesioth's hitbox is not bad. It simply fulfills its role as a big, punishing hitbox. The real problem that people have is the dissonance between it and the model, as you point out. They blame the hitbox because it appears to be the cause for their grief. But one can easily turn the issue on its head, claim Plesioth's animations are bad because they don't visually represent the hitbox accurately, and it makes just as much sense as blaming the hitbox. I agree that the way it forces you to think about the hunt and when to disengage is unique and valuable. I believe many others would also agree and wouldn't be bothered by the huge dimensions of the hitbox if Plesioth's proportions and movements actually fit the area that it supposedly covers. Capcom obviously won't patch PSP games anymore but instead I wish they would port classic MH titles to modern consoles or PC. The only change I would ask for would be for them to adress the hitbox dissonance.
I disagree. It does not make as much sense to blame the model/animations. The model is what you believe you're interacting with. The hitbox is invisible and most average people looking to immerse themselves into the world are not thinking about invisible boxes of danger, they are thinking "Oh crap, this Plesioth is going to kill me"; it's not "This invisible box is going to kill me". So the cause of a hunter's grief appears to come from outside of the game's world, and more along the lines of the technical world; it's immersion breaking. And that's why people call it bad. It's bad for immersion - seemingly unfair because it breaks the rules of the world. Still, within the context of the time, it's fun and an enjoyable challenge once you learn to hoist your suspension of disbelief high enough that you can ignore it. These days, however, suspending that disbelief is far harder to do, because the state of the art has moved on.
I have over 500 hours in Freedom Unite. I grinded against so many plesioths to get their full gear set because I thought it looked awesome. This hitbox discussion is really only something I've discovered since getting back into MH since the release of World and Rise. I have absolutely no memory of this supposedly infamous hip check, and I've probably killed close to a hundred of these things, as a blade master. The game was the game, the fight was the fight. You deal. That's it. The presence of this 'controversy' really makes me think that the community is just dogpiling for no real reason. The "issue" has already been fixed, clearly, and nobody is playing MH FU anymore, so why still complain? I don't get it...!
The hipcheck hitbox was absolutely intentional design, glad to see acknowledgement about it. I'd love to keep seeing more fights designed like this that forces the player to change their approach.
There are better ways to get a player to change their approach than just having the game basically cheat. Intentional or not, it's shitty design plain and simple
if you walk under the legs and roll x 2 in the opposite direction of the hip check, you’ll never get hit. i’m honestly surprised more people don’t talk about this. get in your hits, roll twice while he steps to reposition as the hip check almost always comes out after it repositions.
I always felt like the hip check was meant to demonstrate the sheer mass of his body; I.e. a single thrust of his hips generates enough air pressure to throw you to the ground from a short distance away. Made Plesioth feel more threatening
Soo, my problem with Plesioth is that i'm in Monster Hunter Dos and is my first fight against him, i tried everything that i can think of and can't beat him. the game locks newer monsters behind this fight so i can't get any better equipment and as consequence i can't beat him.
idk if you feel as strongly as I do about it, but can you make a video on Kushala Daora? I think a LOT of players misunderstand the point of that monsters hunt, even the Rise devs too now if I'm being honest
The reference in the title is a good comparison. The plesioth fight is such a torture there were most likely also nazi scientists involved when creating it.
"Just dodge lol" - Repeats one clip of rolling through the hipcheck
also, Plesioth can like be designed to do all of the things that you think hipcheck's hitbox accomplishes without also being bullshit.
"It's not that hard"
Hipchecks:
02:43 evaded
03:26 too far to consider dodged
03:32 hit
04:37 hit
I know everyone hates the hipcheck but i always found the tail to be the real threat.
literally everytime I tried to block it it always ended up hitting me anyways.
Tsil vs face which is worse?
The monster turning is a threat
yeah, same. it's so long and it comes from a high angle but also dangles low so it hits behind my guard.
Every monster tail was a threat 🥲
Removal of the dislikes has given you too much power Jake
it's 72-6 rn
225-38 as of 2022:01:05
Likes to Views ratio is still a very solid measurement of how good a video is. This video for example has 0.1 or 10% Likes/Views, which is overwhelmingly positive!
341 to 95 as of now lol
Jake didn’t make this video. It was plesioth
Damn that ratio went up alot then, currently at 600 likes to 200 dislikes aka 3:1
A misaligned hit box will always scream poor design to me. I’m a strong proponent of hitboxes needing to match character models, otherwise you get hit by invisible attacks, and few things are more frustrating in my book than that. But I also agree with most of your points. It makes me think that they should have modified the enemy model to match their desired hit box, instead of blowing up the hit box.
Whenever a video like this releases, it always seems as if the people are just too afraid to counter the shit points made in the video, evident by the fact that after any negative criticism, they immediately say "Good video though, don't take this personally", like, this video isn't good. It just isn't, plain and simple. It treats a bad hitbox as if it's some plan by the developers to inform the player to not attack certain parts, disingenously ignoring the fact that this is the worst way possible to do so IF it was what the devs wanted to do. Whenever I get hit by nothing, It isn't gonna make the player think "Hey, maybe the terrible design is trying to tell me to not attack the legs!", Instead they'll probably think "K. Thanks game, I clearly got hit there." And then they keep fighting.
Infact, I could just as easily make the opposite argument: If they didn't want me to attack the legs, why did they make the monster so tall to where the legs are the only place I can hit consistently?
This video is bad design, twisted in a way to present it as intentional great design, completely ignoring what the point of a hitbox is: To be as close to the model as possible to where the player can tell where they will and won't get hurt, dodge and punish accordingly. If I spaced out an attack correctly, but it still hit me anyway because of the terrible design, that's an opportunity I missed because of the game's bullshit.
well if one of your friends has to tell you, that his stomache is the weakpoint and you can roll through the hipcheck, or you read about it online, that's one thing
but the information is coming from somewhere and the full picture is at the very least logical game design
i wasn't thinking too critical about plesioth's hipcheck in 3u but by the time i played gen i was really into it and it just finally hit me
when i went to play FU i found the same rules apply
the fact he hasn't changed much in his different iterations goes to show, that it's deliberate and makes for a unique problem for the player to deal with
@@user-yw9mw9hv8o The information is coming from somewhere? Have you never seen a game teach a player where to attack without resorting to broken hitboxes? Can you at the very least admit that this is the worst way possible to teach a player where to attack if it is their intention? Which clearly isn't?
Here's an example of an effective way to teach players where to attack without resorting to terrible design: In dark souls 3, you fight a dragon called darkeater midir. Attacking the legs is clearly not the best strategy, and the way the game shows this isn't through horrible hitboxes, but through a couple factors: He has an attack where he breathes fire under him, this attack reaches way farther behind him than in front of him, and he also uses this attack way more if you are below him. Most of the attacks he uses whenever the player is directly in front of him also have bigger openings.
The reason why making a terrible hitbox doesn't and will never work inspite of what the video maker thinks, is because it doesn't insert the idea into the player's head that THEY are doing something wrong, which is essential. If I am trying to hit his legs, but then I get hit by an attack that wasn't even close to me, what I and most of the world is gonna think, -as evidenced by all of the videos related to plesioth's hitboxes-, isn't "Hey, maybe this is the devs trying to tell me not to attack that part", I'm not gonna think that because if the hitbox DID work, then I would be able to hit the legs flawlessly. Bad hitboxes are bad design, whether or not they want to teach me something by using them.
Also, good luck maintaining this standard in the future, since now, whenever you find a terrible hitbox, you're not allowed to complain about them anymore, all I need to do is contrive a reason why they're there and boom.
To be honest this vid just strikes me as being contrarian for the sake of attention
@@TheActionAsk This guy in general seems to love the first two games, specifically 2, to such an absurd degree he is willing to overlook or even defend any flaws, no matter how egregious. I believe this is the same guy who made a video on MH Dos that's around 4 hours or so, and that video is pretty much the quintessential example of bad video essay:
1. Tons of rambling about just "stuff" that has no impact in the video other than waste time with subjective, irrelevant anecdotes, occupying video space that should've been used to provide examples and argue better instead.
2. Presenting mechanics as if they're objectively better because he subjectively likes them more, leading to a dishonest comparison betweem the current games and Dos just because he needs to tear down what comes after to prop up what came before.
I don't think he's a contrarian, he is just terrible at arguing in general, just like 99% of MH TH-camrs he just doesn't go deep enough into the mechanics of the current games to be able to accurately discern where the new ones improve, and where they're worse compared to the previous games. MH TH-camrs are also incapable of separating their feelings from the actual quality of the games, and this guy falls into every single one of these traps.
"Just roll it xd" is just as valid as saying "just roll it xd" at the absurd cooldown roars in Monster Hunter World suffers from. Its inconsistent even with hours of practice and you're not always going to be in a situation where you are immediately able to roll. Also a bit of a contradiction pointing out the hipcheck is a forward facing attack then making the conjecture that players are frustrated by it because of a "conditioning" to attack the sides. Plesioth has his own tail swipe for those moments with its own absurd hitbox. However this hitbox is a bit more immediately understandable because... well, Plesioth is way too tall. It'd never actually hit you otherwise. Make no mistake though, its still infuriating to get hit by because how mh2 camera works, you can't get a good read of his tail's position so you just kind of have to... "know" when to roll/block it. Which is bad.
It's definitely poorly conveyed, even if the challenge is important. They could have designed a move that has a more accurate hitbox but a wider and more dangerous range of movement and area covered, and achieved the same "hitbox" difficulty while also letting players not have to memorize the boundaries of invisible danger zones to counteract it - and it's frankly healthier for a game to not have that kind of dissonance.
Nah, this ain't it chief. They didn't scale up Plesioth's disjointed hitbox for the sake of creating a specific challenge. They scaled up the standard Piscine Wyvern skeleton, along with the standard model hitboxes and designed Plesioth to me much taller and slender without matching the hitboxes to the model. This is lazy, sloppy game design.
Hitboxes can indeed be good or bad. Video games are a visual medium. You interact with enemies based on what their model is doing. A good hitbox will be consistent with this model, a bad hitbox will be disjointed, whether its too large so it that players are damaged by attacks the enemy did not hit them with or too small and the enemy's model sails through their character inflicting no damage.
I love your content dude, and glad to see you're continuing to make some after you said you probably wouldnt, but I just don't agree with you on this. Either way looking forward to seeing you upload in the future.
Good point
The ability to I-frame through the attack doesn't mean the hitbox can be as large as they want. Why would I need to dodge if the model of the monster doesn't come in contact with the my character's model?
If they used those zones for wind pressure effects I wouldn't mind. Sure it'd be annoying but it'd also be believable. Honestly I have less issues with it being a point of damage and more about it dealing full damage. Having multiple layers of hitboxes based on which part connects with the player to have a scaling damage, would probably make fights more easily readable and more easily learnable. It would also be more believable than taking full damage.
Though that is just my take on it.
The problem with Plesioth’s hipcheck in gens 1 and 2 from a game design standpoint is that the information conveyed to the player about the move through it’s animation does not teach the right lessons about how to interact when fighting the monster.
You see, not only is there a large amount of hitbox dissonance, but the properties of some of the more accurate hitboxes are dissonant as well. Getting hit by the hitbox at a far-away spacing implies that the hitbox is a box check around the monster’s entire model, which completely fails to convey that you should aim for the head instead of the legs.
Also, getting flung up into the air after getting hit by a hitbox near the *feet* just doesn’t make a whole lot of sense. Especially in gens 1 and 2.
ideally you shouldn't even go for the head though.
The best hitzone is the stomache, so having a big hitbox all over him, that can't move out of, on reaction, while standing at his legs/stomache signalizes you can't go there if it isn't a safe punish.
The next level to that design decision is, that it's also able basically regardless of what direction you're rolling in, because it lasts for such a short moment. If you recognize that, you can practice rolling through it and you're rewarded with more openings to attack his weakest hitzone.
@@user-yw9mw9hv8o The problem with trying to use this as a moment to teach the player about rolling I-frames is that no other monster before or after attempts to teach the player about how to use I-frames in this manner, or use it as a part of a fight. In fact, the only other fight I can think of where I-frames are used in any meaningful way is the Dalamadur fight from 4/4U.
@@crimson-foxtwitch2581 nargacuga's tailswipes and pounces cover a lot of space too but are so fast moving, that you can get through them with rolls. many see him as the mentor
There is no excuse for a bad hit box other then limitations of old consoles
well it hasn't changed in 3u and gen/gu so it's cearly deliberate design
you can't really outrun it from standing at his weak point, but you can roll through it with some practice, which makes for a pretty unique fight
@@user-yw9mw9hv8o the fact that they didn't change it doesn't mean that is deliberate, a lot of bugs/ mistakes from games do transfer to the sequel (like Luigi's dash attack missing hitbox in Smash 64 and then in Melee). Even if it is deliberate, it's till bad design, hitbox should always be aligned with a visual representation (model, particles or whatever).
@@capitanpastabase6342 its not bad design its just game design, they could also just add a kind of shockwave visual and keep the hitbox size
@@user-yw9mw9hv8o adding a shockwave would be good game design, because the hutbox will actually represent the attack.
I am willing to bet Jakob has had this video in a safe somewhere until the dislikes were removed.
While I do agree that the complaining is a little excessive, much of the criticism of plesioth’s hip check is valid.
The fair-ness of the attack doesn’t really have anything to do with the players personal experience of the fights difficulty. The attack is unfair because it’s actual hit box extends far beyond the indicators that the game gives the player to inform them of where the hit box should be. This is unfair because it prevents a player from being able to make reasonable judgments as to the range of the attack and thus the player will get hit by the attack at no fault of their own. Regardless of wether or not a player found the plesioth fight difficult it is still unfair to be hit by the hip check while standing a decent distance from the monster on the side opposite the direction it is moving
It may have been the intentions of the developers to teach the players to play in a different way but even if that is the case this is a poor way of going about it. Not only does this method break the previously established presidents and rules of what a hip check does in an unfair way but it also prevents the player from properly learning what they are meant to be doing by depriving them of necessary information. Were it to be more adequately indicated to the player that the monster is not to be approached from the sides via well telegraphed and visually clear attacks then the player would come away from the fight with a well developed understanding of that monsters design goals. As Plesioth is the player is left confused and often frustrated by the fight. People do not learn to keep away from the legs because the hip check is viewed as a design flaw, oversight or bug, which is a valid way of looking at it, and thus all lessons the monster may have to teach are dismissed by the player in favour of anger at the monsters unfair design.
The hip check may not bother you personally or you may even enjoy it but regardless of your opinion on it the objective fact is that the hip check is bad game design.
All that being said I’m a big fan of these videos and am just happy to be discussing monster hunter, especially the old gen games. So please don’t take any of this as hate or anger towards you or the games, just happy to have any discussion about this game no matter how one sided it may end up being.
"People do not learn to keep away from the legs because the hip check is viewed as a design flaw, oversight or bug"
you can learn to deal with it. Well it's true to really estimate where the hitbox is gonna be requires some experience because the information isn't given visually, i definitely agree in parts.
The hitbox also only accurs for a short period in time which can be avoided with a well timed roll, that also allows you to be close and stay close to his weak points, if you learn to do it consistently.
Lastly if you refuse to learn how to deal with a situation because you're looking at it on the surface and think you don't like it, then especially the older games aren't for you.
That's not supposed to sound gatekeepy, those games just won't be nice to you if you're trying to circumvent fight mechanics or use brute force without being deliberate.
(but you could of course use ranged on plesioth that works too)
@@user-yw9mw9hv8o you may be able to learn to “deal with it” but that doesn’t make it any less unfair. Everyone has to deal with it to beat plesioth. Their feelings on the fight won’t change just because they “got gud” though. The frustration of dealing with something that can only be seen as a trial and error attack rather than a properly telegraphed and designed attack is objectively bad game design. Even if you master the distance of this attack and rolling through it and what not, it’s still poorly designed and is evidence of laziness to properly showcase hitboxes. It can’t be a limitation issue either because there are plenty examples of good hit boxes in the older games. Nargacuga has really good hit boxes outside of some exceptions. Why couldn’t plesioth be the same? Ultimately, it’s either laziness or deliberate bad game design.
@@Fishy_1998yt well i disagree.
The fact that it's able pretty much regardless of what direction you roll in, despite being so big, is an obvious design choice and a good one at that. But i agree it's not something you will find out if you do him 3 times in your playthrough and never get back to him because you were frustrated, which is fair.
The trial and error part is true and he definitely can be frustrating at first, he was for me too!
But once you know what the unique fight he presents is, it requires some practice and experience, if you wanna call that "getin gud" doesn't matter to me, he's really fun to me, and i'm not even at 100% consistency (and i might nevere be!) or reaction rolls to avoid the other moves he can select, i can still push myself further I FUCKING LOVE PLESIOTH.
If they added a visual air pressure effect for new players, to better recognize what that hipcheck is, that'd be great. But if the counterplay to that move gets solved as a tightly spacing around kind of situation you lose the unique challenge. That'd be pretty sad to me, because there are plenty of monsters where that's a bigger part of the fight. They don't all have to work the same exact way. They shouldn't.
(and i've seen a couple people say fair or unfair and i don't know what to think of it)
@@user-yw9mw9hv8o while it is true that you can learn where the boundaries of its hit box is with experience that is not achievable in a natural play through of any of the games and, regardless of wether or not the player can learn to deal with it, the attack is still unfairly designed. Any design flaw in any game can be dealt with through proper knowledge of the games mechanics but they are still design flaws none the less. And proper, in depth, knowledge of the invisible boundaries of an unintuitive hit box is not something that a dev should expect any of their players to understand inorder to make a fight fair and understandable.
Monster hunter’s I frames on rolls are extremely short, this means that I framing an attack with a roll is a high skill option, not the default method of avoiding attacks. Making I frames a necessary part of avoiding an attack would be bad game design because a player cannot be expected to consistently pull off inputs with a mere few frames grace period. Capcom knows this and thus there is no monster in the whole series, I think, that has an attack that would require you to I frame it with a roll provided you have decent positioning. The I frames on a roll still exist as an escape option when a player is caught out of position or as a high skill option to increase uptime but it is not a fundament part of the gameplay and is not a reason as to why an attack is manageable or fair.
While I do agree that someone who can’t put up with the plesioth hit box probably won’t really enjoy old gen monster hunter because of the games, shall we say, charm. That should not prevent the games from being judged objectively, regardless of wether or not we love them, and it is the developers job to teach the player how to deal with these situations. Of course many games are often unfairly criticized, monster hunter being one of them, so when discussing wether it is the players fault for not learning or the developers fault for teaching poorly we would have to approach the topic on a case by case basis however, in my eyes, the fact that the issue here could be very reasonably chalked up to a bug, and the fact that it is so unfairly designed, means that the developers did not do a good job at teaching the player the lesson that they had wished too
While yes the player is deprived on the distance the attack can take place, he isn’t deprived of ways to avoid it.
Plessioth always does his hip check to his left allowing for players to take advantage of his right leg which makes attacking, rolling through or simply just avoiding his hip check easier to do. Plesioth is very quick in water but slow on land with a lot of attacks being very predictable which lead to baiting his squirt attack and players being able to run in and hit his belly.
If you still think it’s bad design just remember that alot of things in monster hunter consists of poor design, your never told the monsters weakness through a big glowing eyeball or part, you have to find it through hitting the different body parts to see the blood splatter and hearing the grating sound, your never told what element to use against the monster or what parts are breakable and your never given its exact location or whereabouts. Monster hunter is a game about trial and experimentation, somethings y aren’t always going to be shown to you straight away and it’s through practicing and discussion can it truly be understood. Plessioth hip check can be summed up like an invisible wall yeah you might bounce into a couple of times but soon you’ll get a feel for where it stands and learn to avoid it.
This guy is on Stockholm syndrome with Plesioth
okay from the first 3mins, all I hear is, this is why its bad, but its not bad because I'm using an objectivity blanket
When people say the Plessy hipcheck hitbox is bad, I know that you are aware that they mean that the animation and the overall range don't match. I don't believe this is intentional and is instead a side effect of Plesioth's scale when compared against it's other cousin of hipchecking, the Cephadrome. Both monsters have dissonant hitboxes, but Plessy's scale amplifies the imperfections of the 'piscine hip check'. But it doesn't matter what I believe; there is also no reason Capcom could not have added something to the animation to make it better represent the large range. In fact, they demonstrate this in the Monster Hunter Stories footage you used; they could've added a wind effect, a shockwave, modified the distance the monster travels in the animation, etc. It seems to me like you are being disingenuous when you argue that the hitbox itself isn't inherently bad, when in reality the complaints stem from the difference between the visual and actual risk. Monster Hunter is an action game, not an RPG. You aren't rolling dice on whether the hit lands or not. Contact should be visually confirmable, or the visuals become cosmetic.
After having a look over the vids on your channel I think the thing that sticks out to me the imbalance of criticism on the new monster hunters vs the old ones. I feel like this video is peak of that. I love the old Monster Hunter games, but there is no denying they are incredibly flawed in places. I think you should consider whether or not you are too starstruck or nostalgic for the older games when making arguments like this. Frankly, I find it hard to consider this 'analysis'.
The problem never was the range but understanding the range.
It would just require a visual indicator for the actual range of the hipcheck to be fair.
(Same goes for Gravios, but for some reason everyone seems to forget OG Gravios had the same problem)
It was a nice fight for its time, but it also had this one unfair absence.
My opinion on hitboxes is how it is visualized. Imagine if nergigante did not have the visual of spikes flying off his body during his aoe attacks. Don’t excuse bad design because u can adept to it. This goes for any game. If the devs wanted plesioth’s hip-check to be so disjointed they should have visualized it better. Note: I choose to gun plesioth to avoid his hitboxes.
Now the argument between large or tight hitboxes is interesting. However, I will still stand if the attack is not properly visualized to convey to the player where the danger zones are then its bad game design.
i'd say that the visualization aspect is the only issue with his hipcheck
it's huge in space but tiny in time, so that you can roll through it and stay closer to his weakest hitzone
i'd also say that "large or tight hitboxes" is not an argument to be had, because they make for different challenges, it's a game design decision to utilize one or the other for any particular move
The hipcheck is not an "intentional challenge" it is a result of the limitations of the available tech showing that capcom couldn't make an accurate hitbox at the time.
They still can’t in world
Tigrex misses his dash so often
My brother is sometimes 10 feet above him with his glaive and tigrex hits him without touching him
“Couldnt make an accurate hitbox at the time” this has to be one of the stupidest things every typed. You’re aware their are around 600 perfectly aligned hitboxes and animations in the game right. So be sure there are around three dismounted now that means they’re incapable of making an accurate hitbox. How dumb are you
On the reason why the plesioth's hitbox was the way it is back then, i've heard the theory that the devs just took cephadrome's hitboxes and scaled that up, which didn't match with plesioth's model proportions, and so resulted in the oversized hipchecks.
Plesioth hipcheck is actually way more akin to Gravios hipcheck.
They are the exact same if IRC.
2:17 of course if your i-frame/evade the roll you dont get hit kekw
i agree with most of your points on old MH, but this one is not one of them.
the purpose of a hitbox is to match and represent an action as closely as possible, and trigger scripts when an action is convincing as a collision. i would understand and even be willing to set my grievances aside if the hitbox only extended downward, so the body itself could be implied to have hit.
but it extends *backwards*. it's completely mismatched from the action on screen, and with my understanding of the purpose of hitboxes, i see that as an objective failing for a hitbox in a game with combat like Dos. i criticize World for this, and i sure as hell will criticize Dos for it too.
that's like... your opinion of what a hitbox should be though.
if you want a visual air pressure kind of indicator for where it's active when it's active, that's fair i guess. But it's not like that isn't something you'll roughly figure out after a few hunts.
in my opinion hitboxes are just a part of designing fights/challenges in video games.
If it's near impossible to react and move outside of, starting standing at his weakest spot, that's a meaningful game design decision.
add to that, that the hitbox is only active for a short moment in time, which makes you able to roll through it in like every direction, is also a meaningful game design decision.
in sum that's purposeful design for one of the most unique fights in old mh, to me.
And the way that hasn't changed much at all in his newer iterations makes me confidently believe it's intetional.
@@user-yw9mw9hv8o you're a godamn idiot and I'm glad you don't make games
It just sound like copium
Soooo, according to the theory in this video, they intentionally made that bullshit hitbox this big to counter the arbitrary placed high damage spot?
*I dunno man, seems like bad design to me*
To be honest, I think the problem with Plesioth is that it's big, other wyverns with this attack, like Cephadrome, also have this busted hitbox, but it's less noticeable since they're way smaller.
Also, I must add, finding a way to work around a poor design (intentional or not) doesn't suddenly make said design good, it's like if I said fire doesn't burn because I don't come close to it, I'm pretty sure me not approaching fire doesn't mean that it doesn't burn anymore.
Like dude, you can say it, old MH was a clunky mess of poor design and weird decisions, it won't hurt you.
As a fighting game fan, dis is boolshid
I think good monster design is when you think its "broken" and "unfair" until you learn its moves, strengths, and weaknesses, to the point where the monster is rather easy. Thats the best overall feeling you get after defeating it, and multiple times afterwards, to craft its gear. When a monster is too easy and has no strengths or nothing to punish you, it becomes stale imo.
Zinogre was that for me, he’s so learnable though and became one of my favorite fights. He’s pretty easy to me now too
the problem with plesioth isn't his strengths and weaknesses.
it's that the visual indicator is inaccurate when it should be accurate.
Yeah there's work arounds but the hitbox should be accurate in the first place.
@@ConCadd Wasnt really arguing that
Definitely my experience with my favorite monsters, nargacuga made me so mad
Nothing to punish you? Sounds like 90% of rise (still love it)
This guys just sounds like one of the “acktually 🤓” type dudes that just want to sound unique
While I do see your points and I wouldnt call it bad. I definitely classify the hipcheck as irritating because of how far it extends past his fins. I always blamed it on limitations of the time since as you said every monster had Hitbox Dissonance.
But I will say he did teach me about weapon matchups.
The problem is not the size, its the lack of any visual indication of the size and i dont think there is any good argument for that being a good thing.
Plesioth’s hitbox was only bad in Freedom Unite, and the hitbox issue was across the board in that game anyways. In MH2 Dos he is fine. He is very vulnerable against fire weapons. Just roll towards his head when he is about to hip check and you’d be able to dodge it. Dos has actually made me appreciate Plesioth a lot.
This video is just you saying git gud without saying git gud in as many ways as possible. Plesioth’s mhfu hitboxes are straight up terrible and it needs to be known that it’s lazy game design. It’s not like they don’t know how not to make good hitboxes when lavasioth, a monster in similar size and stature to plesioth has some of the best hitboxes in mhfu. When I want to be hit I want it to be my fault, and to actually be hit by the monster for that matter, not by some sloppily made hitbox that looks as if I was hit with dense air. And that doesn’t only apply to the hipcheck, other moves have terrible hitboxes too like the tail swipe.
“Deal with it” is a biased excuse. If you want me to not go near plesioth at least give me good game design such as accurate visual indicators instead of leaving a lazy unpolished hitbox because you couldn't bother making a telegraph that shows the whole thing.
i'd say the visual aspect is the only inherently bad part here
how many times do you have to get hit by the, be it invisible, hitbox in the same place at the same time before you just accept that it's real and avoid it in space or practice rolling through it?
i get it though, i used to be a rager and disregarded things as bs, but if you wanna talk about more than "i can't see the hitbox" plesioth is a pretty unique fight. There's a reason he hasn't changed much in 3u and gen/gu
The only modern mh instance of dissonant hitboxes i can think of would be the aerial hitboxes, i know it’s meant to make it so that insect glaive and the wirebug can’t just dodge every move by being in the air at all times, but damn are they annoying
i feel hitbox dissonance everytime the fragile glitchy engines in combination with the geometries of the terrains in those games make the hitboxes inconsistent, which happens a fair amount. That's a lot more annoying to me personally, than having a hitbox bigger than the model, if it's at least always the same size and shape at the same place outside the model every single time.
this is one hell of a sophistic mess mate
My main issue with the hipcheck hitbox was that it still hit you even if you were behind the direction he was attacking it. Like if I was right under him and expect him to hip check, say I roll north before he even starts it up, and he hipchecks to the south, if I'm close enough, not even under him, I'd still get hit by it, and it would launch me south in the direction of the attack and put me back underneath him. That aspect of it was always bad hitbox design to me.
Also, I've never heard anyone pronounce the first part of his name like "please" before.
Sorry, but I disagree with this. The only game play aspect plesies wonky hit boxes enforce is frustration. All it does is make you grab a ranged weapon for this single fight because dealing with him in melee is infuriating on a basic level. All it does is make you want to not engage with him at all. He's not a challenge to overcome, he's an annoyance to be avoided. If your idea is what they were going for they failed as far as the vast majority of players are concerned which in fact _does_ make plesioth badly designed as it fails it supposed goal of causing a play style shift. Instead it's just a frustration that nobody ever wants to deal with.
Also disagree with your assessment on a fairly fundamental level. Complaining about things is how they get changed. Even if they didn't get patched, and don't kid yourself several monsters in Generations, World and _literally_ all of them in Rise have received attack data tweeks due to fan backlash, they would be more likely to address it in the next game if enough people point it out. Ultimately "shut up and deal with it" (which is pretty much what you're suggesting) is probably the most anti-consumer thing I've ever heard. The game isn't a piece of art, it's a product and if people aren't happy with some component of it they not only have a right to complain they _should._ Politely preferably, but pointing at something and saying "that is bullshit" is actually pretty important information for a company to know. Otherwise they can't improve stuff for next time.
Imagine defending bad hitboxes essentially with "stop whining" and "you should know to dodge it by now".
Sure everything you've said and speculated is true enough, but...it's still a bad hitbox, or rather a bad piece of design, because it's completely unintuitive. There is no way to tell just by looking at the anticipation of the move that it's going to be a giant rectangle surrounding both sides of the monster. There's no way to learn where the rear edge of the hitbox is expect by trail and error with no information except the resulting vacuum smack. It actively punishes you for attempting to follow the rules of the game that have been taught without any warning that things are going to be different. It also looks fucking stupid. If it needs to be able to punish players surrounding it then follow the hipcheck with a tail swipe or somesuch. It's not bad because it doesn't serve a purpose, it's bad because it's a failure of design consistency.
The hitbox was an engine limitation. Definitely not intentional.
I haven't fought older Plesioth, but I agree with almost everything you said here; I only wish there was some kind of particle effect or something to show where the attack hits so it doesn't seem like it comes out of nowhere. I obviously can't speak for anyone else but it pulls me out of the game a bit if I go flying when clearly I wasn't actually hit by the monster.
yeah definitely, it just takes experience of getting hit a lot of times to properly predict it.
but the timing of the animation is pretty nice for learning how to roll it at least.
In MHGU Plesioth has a "wind pressure" particle effect around its hitbox.
Please do not EVER stop to upload videos, i love your personal view on the MH franchise
Agreed even tho i disagree with some of his videos its still enjoyable to watch
He may have the worst takes most of the time, but he is the only (as far as I'm aware of) MH channel that analyses the series instead of uploading tutorials, news, etc. (or make fanon videos and framing them like actual canon).
Honestly this was a fantasic vid on 1st why the hit box is so big and 2nd as an explanation on how gen 1-2 monster fights were designed
Plesioth hitboxes aren't correct, but that doesn't mean the fight is unplayable, it is just the way the monster is. Yes, it would be better if the hitboxes were correct, but even in the old games Plesioth isn't that hard, and the famous body attack can be dodged, I've learned the timing of the attack so I can be hitting it's legs, and when I see the Plesioth is going to do that attack I wait (I say wait, but it's only like a second) until the right moment to press X (PSP), personally I like Plesioth, I think it has very cool design, and the fight I also think is fine, now the only think that I don't like about it is that sometimes Plesioth is swimming and it takes a ling time to get out, yes you can use Frogs or Sonic Bombs, but still I don't like that part of the hunt very much.
I don't mind the hitboxes of plesioth , I am totally fine with where the attack connects, and how it is meant to condition players. I am on board with the idea that certain attacks are being used for a specific challenges or design choices, but in my opinion, visualizing hit boxes shows more attention to detail, and makes the hunts more immersive IMO. I agree that labeling hitboxes "good" or "bad" doesn't really make sense. When I say "bad" I am usually referring to those dissonant hitboxes. And the reason I take issue with plesioth's dissonant hitboxes is because there are multiple examples of other monsters that have animations to properly show the area where the attack is effecting (in older games too, not just 5th gen)
Like others have said, it's really his tail swipe I find more egregious than his hip check. It looks awkward and robotic to me, like a wooden board rotating on 2 toothpicks as its axis. yet despite how little it moves, it somehow connects with me when I am standing well underneath it. One of my favorite examples of a larger hitbox visualized well is qurupeco's tail swipe. Initially, the tail is positioned extremely high, and is incredibly small. At first glance, it looks like there's no way that will hit me. BUT the geniuses that designed Quru animated the monster to lower its tail, and fan it out, so it connects with my short hunter. Additionally, it adds to the personality, seeing how this creature can contort its body to attack hunters.
They could have added big spikes to his side or sth to indicate that it's dangerous to go from there
Plesioths hip checks bad hit box is the air waves by his hard and powerful hips😂
the hip check hitbox is very jank but also very funny tbh. plesioth hipcheck memes make me laugh
I'm not complaining about the hitbox. I just call him a God for such hitboxes and i like plesioth for it
Plesioth trained me to treat any tail swing as a giant hit box under the monster's tail. The hipcheck is one thing that's fun to joke about (and I personally think it looks silly and unsafe to any monster that uses it) but the huge tail is my personal least favorite Plessy attack, because the tail can be so high up, you don't even see it and still can smack you upside the head. It's also consistently way longer than the Plesioth neck, so even attacking the head, you won't be safe (especially without backwards evading, which I'm not convinced would even cover enough distance without World's/Rise's EE3).
Conceptually, I think Plessy is good. It's a monster designed to defend itself and play chicken. Lots of "get off me" attacks, a way to retreat (water) and in games with water combat, an AI that sometimes makes it flee back to back (infuriatingly so). I just think the design of the monster should partner with the hitboxes (that, as you said, were probably intentional) better. I like Lavasioth way more, largely because its stout, thicker appearance fixes a lot of the issues Plessy hitboxes have - the tail is usually low enough to definitely hit you instead of the air under it, the legs and body are thicker and closer to the ground so the hipcheck hitbox feels more believable.
Eh, instead of saying why the bad hitbox is good for defending Plesioth you should have said why it was a good fight *despite* its bad hitbox.
You're not supposed to force Plesioth out of the water for the whole fight, as you're not supposed to wait while it's in the water.
Gen 1 and 2 small monsters where genuinely bigger threaths than the large ones oftentimes, and the game starts with the idea that you should kill them before the Monster comes in the area for avoiding the Vespoid hell the bees are known for.
in fact only one, two at best small monsters respawn in pre gen 3 games, while leaving the area the small monsters keep the smae ammount of HP the had before you left and they can't respawn while you're in the zone, except for a few exceptions.
With Plesioth you can't: it never leaves the zone it spawns in and that's the gimmick.
When Plesioth is underwater you're supposed to take the small monsters out before it goes out (wich are your only windows for attack so you must make them count), while the fish bombs you with attacks that are easy to dodge, but deal high damage.
They're basically impossibile to not get hit if you only focus on it, but if you focus also on dodging the small monsters it actually gets pretty intense.
The frogs and sonic bombs are for the moment you've killed all the small monsters and you must remove the last HP Plesioth has left.
Hipcheck? Ok, nonstop swimming? No. Don’t ever bring that back again for any reason
It all comes down to knowing what you're dealing with. Plesioth has a big and not very clear hitbox in the beginning. That forces you to avoid being near it's legs. Yian garuga has an instant charge, that forces you to not stand in front of the monster. Old MH was all about getting patterns, learning how to dodge and assumption. You have to assume and prepare for the monster more common and "unfair" attack in order to succeed.
The modern MH it's about learning how to dodge, reaction time and movement. You can't really predict what the monster will do before the monster attacks.
A good example of this is old Zinogre and MHW Zinogre. In MHP3rd Zinogre will always do 3 punches when enraged. That's a pattern you can and should understand to make the fight easier. In MHW the punches are more natural, it's related to the Hunter's position, if you get out of the way it will stop attacking. (why would a oversized lighting dog continue to attack if the target is out of range?) It comes down to adaptation and reaction time, there's a pattern for sure but it is not much exploitable like in the old games.
So in the end you just have to deal with that. That's what they were going for when making plesioth. It could easily be resolved by making him smaller (jyuratodus also has a hipcheck and tight hitboxes, but he is small) but it would be plesioth? That's up to Capcom to decide if they want to bring him back of "fix" it hitboxes.
Nice video, i would have liked you to talk about weapon selection too when approaching this monster.... In mhfu (my case) lots of people may start with long sword and completely forget how important is to use a specific weapon for a specific monster. I remember failing every time against Khezu using a long sword when a simple ranged weapon changed completely quest difficulty overcomimg 90% of that monster attacks. With plesioth is the same story, all you sad was correct to me and who plays this game should learn that the best way to avoid being hit by that attack is just approaching it from distance. 😁 Love your videos
MHFU is all about the correct weapon to the correct monsters.
In MHFU Plesioth is completely destroyed by bow or thunder LBG it's actually funny.
When i was young, i just tought his hipcheck had high wind pressure thats the reason why i always got hit
True that, but it is extremely immersion breaking when I stand on the other side, not touching the monster, and I get dragged into the attack.
Did it feel good to beat it in G rank? Yes. Is it still a layered experience of bullshit? Also yes.
As a "first fleet" hunter (having first played and completed Monster Hunter on the PS2 - Minegarde even), I understand what you're saying. You're commenting on the intention and design within the context of the time of those older games. It makes sense. I don't even remember thinking it was all that bad back then.
However, most old hunters I know pine for the immersion. Dissonant hitboxes break immersion - especially now 15 years later. We'd resign ourselves to dissonant hitboxes and try our best to suspend any disbelief when we knew these were the constraints of the time., but those constraints have been melting away and we now know it's possible to achieve that kind of immersion and more! I think the way we can still adhere to the same design principles as those older games while having the tighter hitboxes is to have more complex animations and behaviours.
So yeah, in my opinion, it's probably acceptable to call them "bad" hitboxes in the context of our current capabilities - making them tighter more accurately reflects the rules of the world, where "bad" would be elaborated as "doesn't work as expected and we know it could be better". But it makes sense to relax that wording within the context of the time.
Jakob out here with the hot takes again. Really refreshing as always.
Plesioth is one of my favourite monsters tbh. Fighting it so many times, I really grew to appreciate it. I'd hope to see it again in a future game, even if they meme the hip check and make it a super attack with extra particle effects or something that helps to visually 'justify' the larger hitbox. I just wanna see my big fish boy in full HD!
There's an error in the video. Plesioth's hipcheck does in fact do water damage and it's water beams do physical damage.
I started with Tri so I never experienced old Plesi but had heard about the hip check. In 3u I used to play a game when carving Plesi to make fun of how crazy his hit boxes were. I would see how far away I could be from his body while still carving. If you kill Plesi underwater you could be 3-hunter's-lengths away from Plesi and still carve. You would just knife that water and get scales. It's pretty wild.
I feel like you see intentions in things where intentions do not lie, like bad hitboxes and what you believe MH 2 is, but sometimes, it's just a matter of bad early game design . You don't see issues like Plesioth's hitbox anymore because they learned to not pull that kind of nonsense, it's a mistake that the hitbox didn't match Plesioth's model, not a challenge put into the game to teach players how to roll through attacks.
So in 2nd gen it was actually just jank BUT going forward in 3U and GU the hitbox is still broken, even though they completely redid it. And maybe you could try to argue that it's still a mistake, but you'd be wrong because the hitbox is spot on in Frontier and it ruins the balance of Plesioth.
I bet my eyes the hitbox is brick shaped
sweat a new video good job Jake stay strong king 💪
I'm actually gonna be sad if they "fix" Plesioth's hitboxes. It's part of his identity as a monster at this point and I feel like "fixing" it will take away from who he is.
This entire video is literally "just dodge lol" thats not an excuse for extremely poor game design get off capcoms meat.
It’s not hard just dodge like how bad are you?
@@randomperson8304 Like op said it doesnt excuse it. A work around for a fucking oopsie of a game design is not good difficulty.
@@Ak4set yeah that was the joke.
@@randomperson8304 My bad g. I didn't laugh so i didn't notice
In addition to that, the monsters always tend to have a "bigger" hitbox in a certain direction.
Plesioths and other monsters hip check is no threat when you evade to it's right side (where the head is).
And for example rajangs zick zack charge attack is almost never threatening, when you evade to it's left side. So the early Monster Hunter Monsters, always had an "easy mode" when you knew in which direction you should evade in a given situation.
I never found the hip check a problem in every game I've played
I don't think the hitbox design was intentional. What I think was that Plesioth was a monster that was supposed to encourage a player to use Lance.
His hipcheck even with the tight hitbox is still annoying to avoid + his belly is his best hitzone can only mean that Lance was the perfect weapon against him. Being able to block all of his attacks while still able to constantly hit his belly. Again even without the enlarged hitbox it seems clear to me that Lance has an answer to everything about him back in MH1.
True, plessy really is a good match up with lance.
what if plesioth's hitbox are just invisible water that is launched from it's powerful giga hips? 🤔🤔🤔🤔
love this video
im playing mhfu for the first time now, its been about 100h of the game. o was dreading fighting plesioth, my first try with a sns was bad, so o adapted, bow is great against the fish, no hipcheck problems whatsoever, thats how you solve these type of problems, you learn and adapt
i mean dont you guys see the haki que whenever he does his hipckeck its pretty obvious for me hmm..
homie really used *that* voice on his character.
Personally i love fighting plesioth when he's in water
the hipcheck should at least have some sort of wind hitbox so Im not hit by the void
The problem I have with Plesioth is not the size of the hitbox or the playstyle it encourages, it's the visualization of said attack. I wouldn't mind it existing if the hitbox was in some way shape or form visible as an invisible force taking away your health isn't very engaging and takes you out of the experience plus it makes it hard to learn the hitbox's size. However, the hip check isn't even the main problem with Plesioth as it has a clear telegraph and if you just don't over commit like with many other monsters you can fairly react to it (If you are aware of the hitbox's size).
The tail swipe is the main problem I have with the Plesioth as it's damage, lack of a telegraph and big hitbox makes it very hard to react to it. If there was a clear telegraph to the tail swipe then the big hitbox on the move would be justified like with the hip check.
do a vid on mhgu plz. also love niche convos like this
Ever since I finally realised Gravios was a good monster, I came to the conclusion that a lot of Monster Hunter fans consider monsters that force them to fight differently to be bad.
The dislike removal has given you too much power, man.
I've never once complained about Plesioth, and you know why?
... i main Light Bowgun. xD
I went from carting 3 times to plesioth 4yrs ago to now beating him without carting once. I can use a few weapons ranged was my first but now I use my fav wep gunlance. Im no speed runner but i get the job done
While I do get why people are upset at the hitbox dissonance or at the points you make, I also understand your perspective.
The plesioth fight asks of you to not be beneath him, to not be near his legs constantly spamming, but rather to circle him and attack his head whenever he opens himself up for it. In newer games the hitbox is tighter and thus players can attack more often going beneath plesioth, and just like that, the fight is completely changed.
MH hitboxes improving is a good thing, butr there's something to say for prefering the slower more methodical fighting in older games with lower health pools but also less attacking.
MH can do with good hitboxes, but I'd say that moving on from the current statet of MH, MH could benefit from better tracking in attacks and more attacks made to punish greedy hunters who constantly stand beneath a monster's legs and the like, an example of MHWorld doing this poorly would be Nargacuga, his hitboxes are overly kind, tracking is bad, and he will often bury his tail in the dirt for 8 seconds so anyone can attack him and he even dodges and pounces less than in older games.
There's a sweetspot that can be hit here through GOOD game design I'm sure, through fair but tough rules. A combat system always shines when it's put to the test and it can't be put to the test without a challenge, that's why the best experiences with MH are usually the ones where you have to overcome a tough challenge, and not a monster that lets itself be hit and dies in 5 minutes.
Can't say I struggled with this monster. Became frustrated yes. But as you said. Adapted and moved on. Made its equipment
So you were okay for mediocrity
@@lewispooper3138 no. But not every monster can be great. There will always be some mediocre monsters. And because of that, others will stand out far more.
the amount of copium in this video
Great video!
Plesioth's hitbox is not bad. It simply fulfills its role as a big, punishing hitbox.
The real problem that people have is the dissonance between it and the model, as you point out. They blame the hitbox because it appears to be the cause for their grief. But one can easily turn the issue on its head, claim Plesioth's animations are bad because they don't visually represent the hitbox accurately, and it makes just as much sense as blaming the hitbox.
I agree that the way it forces you to think about the hunt and when to disengage is unique and valuable. I believe many others would also agree and wouldn't be bothered by the huge dimensions of the hitbox if Plesioth's proportions and movements actually fit the area that it supposedly covers.
Capcom obviously won't patch PSP games anymore but instead I wish they would port classic MH titles to modern consoles or PC. The only change I would ask for would be for them to adress the hitbox dissonance.
I disagree. It does not make as much sense to blame the model/animations. The model is what you believe you're interacting with. The hitbox is invisible and most average people looking to immerse themselves into the world are not thinking about invisible boxes of danger, they are thinking "Oh crap, this Plesioth is going to kill me"; it's not "This invisible box is going to kill me".
So the cause of a hunter's grief appears to come from outside of the game's world, and more along the lines of the technical world; it's immersion breaking. And that's why people call it bad. It's bad for immersion - seemingly unfair because it breaks the rules of the world.
Still, within the context of the time, it's fun and an enjoyable challenge once you learn to hoist your suspension of disbelief high enough that you can ignore it. These days, however, suspending that disbelief is far harder to do, because the state of the art has moved on.
I have over 500 hours in Freedom Unite. I grinded against so many plesioths to get their full gear set because I thought it looked awesome. This hitbox discussion is really only something I've discovered since getting back into MH since the release of World and Rise. I have absolutely no memory of this supposedly infamous hip check, and I've probably killed close to a hundred of these things, as a blade master. The game was the game, the fight was the fight. You deal. That's it. The presence of this 'controversy' really makes me think that the community is just dogpiling for no real reason. The "issue" has already been fixed, clearly, and nobody is playing MH FU anymore, so why still complain? I don't get it...!
The hipcheck hitbox was absolutely intentional design, glad to see acknowledgement about it. I'd love to keep seeing more fights designed like this that forces the player to change their approach.
There are better ways to get a player to change their approach than just having the game basically cheat. Intentional or not, it's shitty design plain and simple
@@dannyboi5887 It's not cheating if all you have to do is time your rolls right to avoid it
Turning a fun monster hunter community meme into a 10 minute serious video....
Piscine Wyverns have always been annoying. The entire group is just a troll face. Apart from MHFU/GU Lavasioth and Iceborne Beotodus.
It’s a bad design choice, confining a player to do something a certain way to avoid punishment isn’t fun.
if you walk under the legs and roll x 2 in the opposite direction of the hip check, you’ll never get hit. i’m honestly surprised more people don’t talk about this. get in your hits, roll twice while he steps to reposition as the hip check almost always comes out after it repositions.
I always felt like the hip check was meant to demonstrate the sheer mass of his body; I.e. a single thrust of his hips generates enough air pressure to throw you to the ground from a short distance away. Made Plesioth feel more threatening
Soo, my problem with Plesioth is that i'm in Monster Hunter Dos and is my first fight against him, i tried everything that i can think of and can't beat him. the game locks newer monsters behind this fight so i can't get any better equipment and as consequence i can't beat him.
Git gud my nigga
@@DarkOminigiri yeah xD. but he is easy on MH 1 online, so i give them that.
Lets be honest, theyre really bad and broken, but thats what makes plesioth awesome
I agree, good video
This is really bad, dude.
idk if you feel as strongly as I do about it, but can you make a video on Kushala Daora? I think a LOT of players misunderstand the point of that monsters hunt, even the Rise devs too now if I'm being honest
they just force u to use a gun which is horrible design because there's only 1 optimized weapon choice to do it fast
Or I could just not be mad at the hitboxes because it’s an old game
The reference in the title is a good comparison. The plesioth fight is such a torture there were most likely also nazi scientists involved when creating it.
i like mhfu video analysis. thanks sir
Another plesioth lover YEEESSS