Not all cards are the exact same 1 for 1. Take eradicator virus for example , the reason ocg can target it with rollback without doubt is because it reads differently than the tcg. In tcg it is dependent on HJ so make sure to ask. I believe the wording differs with the TCG copy stating “after this card activation”. Since roll back only copies the effect to destroy either spell or traps and not the whole cards texts, the activation of eradicator itself could be seen as a requirement for the effect to resolve
@@littletlc3155It still sucks, you should be able to have a consistent end result of a certain situation every time it happens, not depending on how the judge feels
@@littletlc3155 have you seen any head judge rule that Rollback cannot copy regular Welcome in the GY? I haven't. And it exposes personal bias since welcome by definition should also be illegal since the fiend lock again uses "card activation". I've run this as a test on 6 separate occasions on fellow judges and every single one that denied EEV fell for it. I've even heard "f* Lab" as I was leaving. I should have escalated this issue (I've been a judge since 2013 and my word would matter) but I was playing actively while I didn't want to make a scene for the organizer to deal with.
@@FrankOcean-- you are 100% correct. Never accept a ruling dispute you KNOW you are correct without appeal (but be sure about it, don't waste everyone's time for being stubborn) then if you can go the extra step of finding a ruling on the database for proof.
The Aria can‘t target effect literally drove me nuts at my Nats. My opponent tried to to that exact play 3 times and everytime I had to tell him that it was Illegal, and this happenend in the later rounds of the tournament, just makes me wonder how much he did that during the tournament against players that don‘t know the deck 🙃
As a melodious player there are still times I forget Aria's targeting effect affects BOTH players and I would catch myself. I think aria should get an errata.
I was about to comment on situations like this. When it happens once, assuming it was an honest mistake is fine. On the 2nd try however you should call a judge even if you get called a shark etc. Calling the judge and the opponent receiving a PE - Minor will have more impact on the opponent to REMEMBER the interaction in the future, but more importantly this will save both you and future opponents of that player from the hardest cheating to punish as a judge; "Soft-cheating". There is always the possibility of stress etc making your opponent "soft-cheating" without that intent, but unfortunately, there is an equal chance of maliciously trying to gain an unfair advantage in the situation at the expense of you being a good sport about it. I have tracked players through tournaments repeatedly "soft-cheat" and the illegal interaction was 100% of the time in their favor.
Call a judge over, because this is a PE Minor. If they go on and just hope for you to mess up once, the 2nd Judge Call for this issue will be an upgrade to a game loss. It is important so that your opponent cannot take advantage of it and try to soft cheat
9:24 i need to point out that skill drain does indeed specify "(but their effects can still be activated)" in its texts, and imperm does not. so skill drain is a bad example, because people are unaware that negated monsters can still activate unless a card specifies otherwise (dragostepelia, for example). yes, the fenrir is legal, but its legal through game mechanic, skill drain would make it legal because the card specifies. it doesnt need to, because if it didnt, game mechanic would still allow activations, but the distinguished difference still needs to be pointed out. PSCT can be an absolute turd.
Skill Drain's recent erratas (only the last 2 specify this) are prime examples of "card with small text, let's throw an explanation/reminder about game mechanics here" A lot of players lack understanding of fundamental mechanics such as this, meanwhile Konami is still treating YGO as " pick up cards and play them" like 1999 were search cards specified "add x. Then your deck is shuffled" or Pot of Greed sending itself to the gy after resolving. Personally I would be a supporter of this if the explanations were color-coded (or even different font/style) while placed at the bottom of the card so everyone could easily identify them as explanations for newer players, then printing cards with such format in Structure decks and Starter Decks
@@Dertypmiteinemkleinenschwan nice!!! I just feel master duel is a great way to understand interaction between certain cards I am a visual learner so it just helps me a lot!
"When in doubt ask the Head Judge." It is really funny, that as fas as I know, Yu-Gi-Oh is the only game, where you can think something like: "Hey, if my deck works or not, may depend on how the head judge of the current tournament is ruling one specific interaction." But I guess, that is the flipside of this really interesting and elaborate game.
We need a TCG book ruling and public, and Konami needs to answer the questions people can have. C'mon we pay thousands of dollars a year it's the minimum they can do...
About [1] i believe it's important to point out that Bacha protects the effects from being negated, not their activations. If instead of Veiler the opponent used Gamma (or Orange Light in the mirror) then the effect of Etoile "never activated" to get the protection of Bacha (negate the activation). This only works against cards like Ash Blossom or Regulus (negate that effect), or Bagooska (a nasty play they do themselves) For reference, there is the ruling of Divine Wrath vs Subterror Final Battle (4th effect). Do not confuse this with Branded Lost, it has a different wording.
@@Aud1oSnak3etoile doesn't have to banish any cards your opponent controls, she can return cards up to the number of banished monsters, which can be non at all
Well, that’s likely due to the stream confusion now… so it had to be cleared up, it didn’t happen but when officials open that avenue of confusion, it became an issue for magistus
As an honest question, what is the difference between packbit special summoning from S/T zone and Arctos XII Vaylantz summoning from the pend scale if both haven't been properly summoned with their respective summon mechanics first?
When a monster card has been negated, if it would try to activate its effects, the activated effects would be negated, not the activations. If you think of it that way, Bacha applies its protection if another Melodious Fusion would be negated while bacha is not negated. If it was something like Skill Drain where Bacha would be negated alongside the other fusions, you stop all the effects including Bacha's protection.
Because fadra was chain link 2. The summon occured. But trident couldn't activate it's effect as after fadras effect was kashtiras activation making the summoned trident miss it's timing to use it's effect. You can activate an effect of a summoned monster mid chain link resolution. Because the kashtiras had to resolve the chain. The trident was summoned and just sat there.
Trident is a when effect. When it was summoned in chain link 2, chain link 1 was fenrir attempting to activate its effect. At the time trident wanted to activate its effect was the same time fenrir effect was trying to activate. So think of it as trident had to wait his turn and then forgot to use his effect because he was watching fenrir fail to resolve the effect on his summon
That Fenrir scenario was so funny because that happened live on stream and the Tenpai threw the game by forgoring the negated Fenrir. 😂 The icing on top is the illegal activation of Dragion.🤣
Regarding scenario#1, what would happen if player B shotgun effect veiler first on Etoile and player A let it resolve, then activates Etoile effect to banish later? Would the activated effect of an already negated melodious monster still go through with Becha live on the field?
I remember when someone used Veiler on my Brio (back before the nerf) when I was playing Fabled, and was under Maxx "C". I just laughed, and kept using Brio with all the discard effects. They ended up decking out.
I am curious on something similar for the Trident missing its timing because it is CL2+. What if we have 2 Tenpai monster and OP is playing Voiceless and has Savaris on board. Can I declare the effect of 1 Tenpai as CL1, and the the other Tenpai as CL2 to synchro --> this is to make CL1 resolved without effect because CL2 already performed the summon. Will Savaris miss its timing to negate the summon this way?
So how come Samara D lotus, can be negated with an imperm/veiler, even if you activate the effect to tribute for cost for the search.. doesn’t it dodge the target effect negation?
Because it's not a quick effect. On summon your opponent has priority to react on summon of you have no trigger effects. So samsara gets negated before it can activate its effect. But than again I might be wrong 😅
To clarify how negation of cards work and removal from field. Dodging targeted negation means you can remove the card from the field before the negation resolves. Lotus is not a quick effect to tribute itself so its activated effect would still get negated. If you were thinking dodging the effect negation meant removing it from the field for its effect then that doesn't work. You still activated it on the field while the card was negated so it doesn't resolve in the graveyard. If we take Hieratic Seal of Heavenly Spheres as another example. If it was negated and you use its effect to tribute itself, it is still negated so it cannot bounce a face-up card to the hand. But its graveyard effect would still trigger since it was tributed and the card isn't negated when it activates in the graveyard. Hope that helps clarify things.
@@mythriljojo But then how would an already-negated Fenrir resolve successfully if Book of Moon was chained to it's effect? Wouldn't it still resolve on the field? Why is that different that tributing for cost to leave the field while negated?
WHAT? so if Fenrir is impermanced, and the later in battle phase activates his effect and gets book of mooned, you are saying he will resovle?! Timestamp 9:15
Correct. Lingering effects like imperm stop applying to a monster if it is flipped face-down on the field. So for example, if player A successfully resolves imperm on the special summon of player B's R-Ace Turbulence, then afterwards player B activates the Turbulence effect and chains Book of Moon or Book of Eclipse as CL2, the Turbulence would resolve with effect and set up to 4 from deck. Flipping a monster face-down on their field is just weird like that.
@@Exapico so this ONLY works for SETTING the monster? it does NOT work for bouncing the monster to hand with compulse or tributing it for a cost (for exampe effect veiler vs rescue rabbit)
@@whynotsquat8315 Yes, it only works for flipping a monster face-down on the field. If you tributed to activate an impermed Rescue Rabbit, the effect would resolve negated.
It's a "When effect", that means that the synchro summons needs to be the last thing to happen in the last chain for it to trigger. In this case it was resolved at CL2, since fenrir ef was the last thing to resolve, Trident dragion missed the timing of it's activation hence why it's illegal.
Trident Dragion needed to be synchro summoned as the very last action in the previous chain in order to get its effect. In the previous chain, the very last action was the negated Fenrir resolving its effect, not Trident being Synchro Summoned
"When [X]: You can" effects need to meet their condition as the last thing to happen prior to the current chain being formed. Fadra causing the Synchro Summon of Trident was not the last thing to happen though, it was the negated Fenrir attempting to resolve
When effect, so needs to be the last thing in the chain, in order for its effect to not “miss timing”. Another example would be Hot Red Archfiend King Calamity. Your turn comes and your opponent has Crimson Dragon + a Level 12 Synchro. Turn player priority, you go CL1 Imperm target their crimson, they go CL2 Crimson target their Level 12 Synchro. Chain resolves. CL2 the crimson brings out the calamity through its effect, and then CL1 Imperm targets and negates the crimson. Doesn’t matter that King Calamity was summoned. Its floodgate effect won’t activate because it wasn’t the last thing in the chain to occur (it had to have been summoned as the last thing in the previous chain link.
The worst is when people try to bully you into accepting their illegal plays, “are you sure that card can do that? Because I’m pretty sure that’s not what it means by , wouldn’t the card do when I activate ?” Them: “Nah dude I’ve been playing this deck like this against everyone, that’s how it works trust me” Then when you call the judge like “I’m just gonna make sure cause I don’t think it does that or maybe me or you is reading the interaction wrong” they get sooo mad and childish “Woww why do you need to call a judge man can you literally not read I told u thats what the card does but whatever call a judge then, it doesn’t matter 😡😡” (P.S. Plz let me win the rarity 01 giveaway 😭 I just want to open one pack of it 😭😭)
I like how in #3, when you said "Opponent the chains into Trident" i was already thinking Why would they do that? It's a when summoned. then it was #4 lol
If you ever feel stupid for not knowing some of these rulings or interactions. Always remember: There’s always someone on Duelingbook that knows WAY less than you. Don’t beat yourself up too much, at least you can acknowledge you made a mistake
Enigmaster is because ALL extra deck cards implicitly have the text ‘MUST FIRST be summoned by’ So unless a card specifically states ‘ignoring it’s summoning conditions’ than you cannot special summon an extra deck monster without having first summoned it normally, but again, cards that say ‘ignoring it’s summoning conditions’ trump that rule
Only when summoning it from the Extra Deck can "ignoring summoning conditions" be applied. If it wasn't properly summoned and ends up in a public location, they still will not be able to be revived.
People disliked the negated Fenrir activation because the ability to activate a negated monster exists opposite the fact that you aren’t allowed to “do something for no reason”. You can’t imperm under Skill Drain. That being said, Logan is my boy so fuck the haters.
People commonly make that association that negated=can't activate. I've activated card effects of negated cards just to be met with "It won't do anything" (before the chain is even revolving), to which I reply "I'm aware. It will resolve negated." For monsters, applied negation can be removed by flipping it face-down, which can make a difference when building a chain.
What is your opinion on this play? Player A activates an effect from hand, example Stone Sweeper; "You can discard this card; add 1 Level 3 or lower Fiend Tuner from your Deck to your hand, also you cannot Special Summon from the Extra Deck for the rest of this turn, except Fusion or Synchro Monsters." Chain 1 Player B responds with Ragnaraika Chain Coils effect; "If your opponent activates a monster effect (except during the Damage Step): You can activate this effect; neither player can activate the effects of monsters in the hand this turn." Chain 2 Player A has no response. Chain resolves 2 ->1 Does the effect of Stone Sweeper go through? I assume it would, since the card was already activated and the only part remaining is resolving each effect of each chain.
The situation with packbit does make sense he is from the extra deck but why is it Horus Lv8 can't be special summoned from grave via level modulation unless it's summoned properly Horus Lv8 is a main deck monster and level mod ignores summoning conditions smh...
Because you still have to have summoned a monster properly before reviving it from a location that is public knowledge. It has its own summoning conditions but the requirement of being properly summoned first before summoning it from the gy is game mechanics/rules.
Whoa. If a monster is already negated till the end of the turn and then booked it would still be negated. However if a card like skill drain is on feild and then you book it would then resolve.
At the time it's flipped face down, a negation like Veiler or Imperm will wear off. So if Fenrir (that is negated by Imperm) is used as CL1, then Book of Moon targeting Fenrir as CL2, on the resolution of CL2 Fenrir is placed face down and at that time the effect of Imperm wears off, so at the resolution of CL1 the target of Fenrir is banished since no other effect interacts with it. This is not to be confused with a card like Ash Blossom which negates the effect itself and not the monster. In the case of Unicorn CL1, Blossom CL2, Book CL3, despite Unicorn being placed face down, Blossom will still negate the effect to add.
Changing a monster facedown is the exception. If you remove an Impermed monster from the field by say, destroying Fenrir with Offerings to the Doomed, it would be negated. But if you used Fenrir and chained a Book of Moon, it would resolve just fine.
@@babrad I glanced over this and managed to mix up Kashtira Unicorn (which you were using) with Knightmare Unicorn lol. I was like "how are you booking a Link Monster?" then it clicked.
Also to add to the previous comment, effects activate and resolve at the same place. So if your monster removes itself from the field while being negated, for example Samsara D Lotus tributing itself to summon a Yubel, then the effect will resolve on the field where Samsara was negated so it doesn't resolve successfully. The argument "but it's in the GY now so Imperm wore off" isn't correct because the effect activated and resolved on the field. For an effect to bypass that we have the example of Tour Guide summoning a Fiendish Rhino Warrior with its effects negated. While on the field, the continuous effects are negated. Going to the GY is the requirement to activate, so it activates AND resolves in the GY where the negation placed by Tour Guide has finished applying, and the effect resolves successfully.
Can we normalize how complicated this game is and have some sort of resource that is easily accessible to players and judges to understand how cards work!! I am a big advocate for some sort of app you can load up you can build the game state and chain links and see how everything resolves or if things are even legally activatable lol if that’s a word 😂 Konami make it happen!!
@@thebringer-dreamerdragon-6067 lol you right and I get that it would just be nice to have a universal place to get correct information. There should not be multiple interpretations of how certain cards interact with each other so everyone can be in the same page!
That would be ideal, but Konami doesn't care enough to make something like that happen. Any passion projects that attempt to do something like that will be met with "Oh but it's not official so it doesn't count!"
I don’t think the first one is correct. Lingering effects like imperm and effect veiler work on melodius. The protection protects the effect getting negated, such as cards like ash. OCG player here
Trust me it’s correct. While Bacha is Active, the negated fusions of other melodious should still be active even if their card is negated. If Bacha gets negated the protection gets negated. While Bacha is active, even if you have bagooska, your effects will go through. It’s like altergeist protocol.
Imperm and Veiler work specifically on Bacha because they in turn negate its text that protects Melodious fusion effects in the first place. Since the veiler was used on Etoile, and Bacha's effects were all live, Bacha protects Etoile's quick effect. It's the same reason why you can end on Etoile, bacha, and bagooska and still have a live Etoile effect.
Why would not trident activate? After the chain resolves, trident still syncro summoned. It would like be you chained i:p to link summon s:p. After all chains have been resolved, s:p effect would activate, since it was properly summoned. It would activate on a new chain.
If the effect that allowed you to Synchro Summon is not CL1, then the last thing to happen in that chain is whatever CL1 was. When Trident was summoned, the chain was still resolving, meaning that the "When" in the previous chain was NOT Trident being summoned. Had Trident been an "If" effect, it would not matter when in the last chain it was Synchro summoned, just that it was special summoned.
I am just tired. I can back from YCS and immediately put back to my day job while wanting to craft videos, writing a judge document for regionals this weekend I am exhausted
What drives me crazy about melodious monsters.... The ones based on actual musicians and other terminologies.. Bacha, is based off the composer Bach. All youre doing is saying bach-a not ba-cha. I've even heard people refer to concerto as concert-o, when its pronouced conchairto. Sorry band nerd😂😂😂
This is a silly video 😅 i feel like any experienced player would already know these things. And it feels like you're actively calling out people from the ycs who were nervous on stream lol
you can't flip am impermed monster to resolve it legally! that only works under skill drain because of its specific wording saying "while they are face-up on the field". if the monster was impermed, the effects that activate on field don't go through. I hope that was just a misspeak
Incorrect. Face down monsters are no longer negated, and their effects will resolve normally. You can see this in effect in examples like CL1 Robina CL2 Veiler CL3 Book target Robina CL4 Imperm. Imperm resolves negating Robina, but because Book flips Robina face down, its negated status goes away and will resolve normally as CL1.
It bothers me so much that the TCG just makes up rules based on how the judge "feels" at the time while the OCG has a database to clear any doubts.
Not all cards are the exact same 1 for 1. Take eradicator virus for example , the reason ocg can target it with rollback without doubt is because it reads differently than the tcg. In tcg it is dependent on HJ so make sure to ask. I believe the wording differs with the TCG copy stating “after this card activation”. Since roll back only copies the effect to destroy either spell or traps and not the whole cards texts, the activation of eradicator itself could be seen as a requirement for the effect to resolve
@@littletlc3155It still sucks, you should be able to have a consistent end result of a certain situation every time it happens, not depending on how the judge feels
@@littletlc3155 have you seen any head judge rule that Rollback cannot copy regular Welcome in the GY?
I haven't. And it exposes personal bias since welcome by definition should also be illegal since the fiend lock again uses "card activation".
I've run this as a test on 6 separate occasions on fellow judges and every single one that denied EEV fell for it. I've even heard "f* Lab" as I was leaving. I should have escalated this issue (I've been a judge since 2013 and my word would matter) but I was playing actively while I didn't want to make a scene for the organizer to deal with.
@@FrankOcean-- you are 100% correct. Never accept a ruling dispute you KNOW you are correct without appeal (but be sure about it, don't waste everyone's time for being stubborn) then if you can go the extra step of finding a ruling on the database for proof.
@@littletlc3155 english is a shit language and the only reason we use it is because if we didnt we wouldnt be allowed money
The Aria can‘t target effect literally drove me nuts at my Nats. My opponent tried to to that exact play 3 times and everytime I had to tell him that it was Illegal, and this happenend in the later rounds of the tournament, just makes me wonder how much he did that during the tournament against players that don‘t know the deck 🙃
As a melodious player there are still times I forget Aria's targeting effect affects BOTH players and I would catch myself. I think aria should get an errata.
I was about to comment on situations like this. When it happens once, assuming it was an honest mistake is fine. On the 2nd try however you should call a judge even if you get called a shark etc.
Calling the judge and the opponent receiving a PE - Minor will have more impact on the opponent to REMEMBER the interaction in the future, but more importantly this will save both you and future opponents of that player from the hardest cheating to punish as a judge; "Soft-cheating".
There is always the possibility of stress etc making your opponent "soft-cheating" without that intent, but unfortunately, there is an equal chance of maliciously trying to gain an unfair advantage in the situation at the expense of you being a good sport about it. I have tracked players through tournaments repeatedly "soft-cheat" and the illegal interaction was 100% of the time in their favor.
Call a judge over, because this is a PE Minor. If they go on and just hope for you to mess up once, the 2nd Judge Call for this issue will be an upgrade to a game loss. It is important so that your opponent cannot take advantage of it and try to soft cheat
Scumbags like bro, do you have nothing better to do than cheat in a children’s card game lol it’s definitely the cringest of cringe behavior
9:24 i need to point out that skill drain does indeed specify "(but their effects can still be activated)" in its texts, and imperm does not. so skill drain is a bad example, because people are unaware that negated monsters can still activate unless a card specifies otherwise (dragostepelia, for example).
yes, the fenrir is legal, but its legal through game mechanic, skill drain would make it legal because the card specifies. it doesnt need to, because if it didnt, game mechanic would still allow activations, but the distinguished difference still needs to be pointed out.
PSCT can be an absolute turd.
Skill Drain's recent erratas (only the last 2 specify this) are prime examples of "card with small text, let's throw an explanation/reminder about game mechanics here"
A lot of players lack understanding of fundamental mechanics such as this, meanwhile Konami is still treating YGO as " pick up cards and play them" like 1999 were search cards specified "add x. Then your deck is shuffled" or Pot of Greed sending itself to the gy after resolving.
Personally I would be a supporter of this if the explanations were color-coded (or even different font/style) while placed at the bottom of the card so everyone could easily identify them as explanations for newer players, then printing cards with such format in Structure decks and Starter Decks
Those who got the Fenrir ruling wrong have not played Master Duel
All yugioh players should play master duel to get a better understanding of how the cards work In real life!! 💯
Are also the people who argue on their mom's grave that you can't use a monsters effect under skill drain
@@thebringer-dreamerdragon-6067 🤣🤣
I dont play master duel but i can read and understand
@@Dertypmiteinemkleinenschwan nice!!! I just feel master duel is a great way to understand interaction between certain cards I am a visual learner so it just helps me a lot!
"When in doubt ask the Head Judge." It is really funny, that as fas as I know, Yu-Gi-Oh is the only game, where you can think something like: "Hey, if my deck works or not, may depend on how the head judge of the current tournament is ruling one specific interaction." But I guess, that is the flipside of this really interesting and elaborate game.
We need a TCG book ruling and public, and Konami needs to answer the questions people can have. C'mon we pay thousands of dollars a year it's the minimum they can do...
About [1] i believe it's important to point out that Bacha protects the effects from being negated, not their activations. If instead of Veiler the opponent used Gamma (or Orange Light in the mirror) then the effect of Etoile "never activated" to get the protection of Bacha (negate the activation). This only works against cards like Ash Blossom or Regulus (negate that effect), or Bagooska (a nasty play they do themselves)
For reference, there is the ruling of Divine Wrath vs Subterror Final Battle (4th effect). Do not confuse this with Branded Lost, it has a different wording.
That was referenced directly in the previous video on what works on Bacha, it was the Friday video
im curious as to why he can use the banish effect in that scenario where he oppo has no cards on the field?
@@Aud1oSnak3etoile doesn't have to banish any cards your opponent controls, she can return cards up to the number of banished monsters, which can be non at all
Idk how people can’t read aria. And anyone trying to special a packbit that wasn’t properly summoned is just blatantly cheating.
Well, that’s likely due to the stream confusion now… so it had to be cleared up, it didn’t happen but when officials open that avenue of confusion, it became an issue for magistus
@@MSTTV "Jerome, you mean we've been playing magistus wrong this whole time?"
Main part starts on 2:02
9:57 trident directly into anima zone, definitely a tenpai player
As an honest question, what is the difference between packbit special summoning from S/T zone and Arctos XII Vaylantz summoning from the pend scale if both haven't been properly summoned with their respective summon mechanics first?
Imperm and veiler work on Bacha, but do not work on other melodious fusions, it makes no sense since no activated effect is being negated
They don’t work only if bacha is on the board. If bacha wasn’t there, we would be talking about a different scenario
When a monster card has been negated, if it would try to activate its effects, the activated effects would be negated, not the activations. If you think of it that way, Bacha applies its protection if another Melodious Fusion would be negated while bacha is not negated. If it was something like Skill Drain where Bacha would be negated alongside the other fusions, you stop all the effects including Bacha's protection.
You might need to explain the if effect vs when effect once again.
Can someone re explain #4 with tje double Trident thing I don't understand why it wouldn't get the double DMG or double attack
Because fadra was chain link 2. The summon occured. But trident couldn't activate it's effect as after fadras effect was kashtiras activation making the summoned trident miss it's timing to use it's effect. You can activate an effect of a summoned monster mid chain link resolution. Because the kashtiras had to resolve the chain. The trident was summoned and just sat there.
You can't* activate
Trident is a when effect. When it was summoned in chain link 2, chain link 1 was fenrir attempting to activate its effect. At the time trident wanted to activate its effect was the same time fenrir effect was trying to activate. So think of it as trident had to wait his turn and then forgot to use his effect because he was watching fenrir fail to resolve the effect on his summon
Does a trap need to be summoned properly? Isn't enigmaster a trap card when it summons itself?
It’s not my fault you can’t see the card text.
That Fenrir scenario was so funny because that happened live on stream and the Tenpai threw the game by forgoring the negated Fenrir. 😂
The icing on top is the illegal activation of Dragion.🤣
ah nice
thank you for about the ruling of Tenpai Dragon
Regarding scenario#1, what would happen if player B shotgun effect veiler first on Etoile and player A let it resolve, then activates Etoile effect to banish later? Would the activated effect of an already negated melodious monster still go through with Becha live on the field?
Yes. That does not change anything
I remember when someone used Veiler on my Brio (back before the nerf) when I was playing Fabled, and was under Maxx "C". I just laughed, and kept using Brio with all the discard effects. They ended up decking out.
wait what
how
@@michaelmorales1602 Fableds love to swarm, and I had Card Destruction waiting.
Question help, can Zebufera, Vaalmonican Hallow Heathen target face down banished cards by evenly and kashtira?
It can't.
Zebufera specifies that it must be _"1 of your "Vaalmonica" Normal Spells/Traps"_ and cards banished face-down can't be identified.
I am curious on something similar for the Trident missing its timing because it is CL2+.
What if we have 2 Tenpai monster and OP is playing Voiceless and has Savaris on board.
Can I declare the effect of 1 Tenpai as CL1, and the the other Tenpai as CL2 to synchro --> this is to make CL1 resolved without effect because CL2 already performed the summon.
Will Savaris miss its timing to negate the summon this way?
Yes
Wheres the emergency banlist?
So how come Samara D lotus, can be negated with an imperm/veiler, even if you activate the effect to tribute for cost for the search.. doesn’t it dodge the target effect negation?
Because it's not a quick effect. On summon your opponent has priority to react on summon of you have no trigger effects. So samsara gets negated before it can activate its effect. But than again I might be wrong 😅
Samsara D is not a quick effect. What dodge?
U can’t respond to imperm targeting it
To clarify how negation of cards work and removal from field. Dodging targeted negation means you can remove the card from the field before the negation resolves. Lotus is not a quick effect to tribute itself so its activated effect would still get negated. If you were thinking dodging the effect negation meant removing it from the field for its effect then that doesn't work. You still activated it on the field while the card was negated so it doesn't resolve in the graveyard. If we take Hieratic Seal of Heavenly Spheres as another example. If it was negated and you use its effect to tribute itself, it is still negated so it cannot bounce a face-up card to the hand. But its graveyard effect would still trigger since it was tributed and the card isn't negated when it activates in the graveyard. Hope that helps clarify things.
@@mythriljojo But then how would an already-negated Fenrir resolve successfully if Book of Moon was chained to it's effect? Wouldn't it still resolve on the field? Why is that different that tributing for cost to leave the field while negated?
right so Trident Dragion only gets eff in battle if eff to quick synchro it was chain link 1
WHAT? so if Fenrir is impermanced, and the later in battle phase activates his effect and gets book of mooned, you are saying he will resovle?! Timestamp 9:15
Correct. Lingering effects like imperm stop applying to a monster if it is flipped face-down on the field. So for example, if player A successfully resolves imperm on the special summon of player B's R-Ace Turbulence, then afterwards player B activates the Turbulence effect and chains Book of Moon or Book of Eclipse as CL2, the Turbulence would resolve with effect and set up to 4 from deck. Flipping a monster face-down on their field is just weird like that.
@@Exapico so this ONLY works for SETTING the monster? it does NOT work for bouncing the monster to hand with compulse or tributing it for a cost (for exampe effect veiler vs rescue rabbit)
@@whynotsquat8315 Yes, it only works for flipping a monster face-down on the field. If you tributed to activate an impermed Rescue Rabbit, the effect would resolve negated.
@@Exapico thats crazy
Can someone explain to me why the Trident card was an illegal activation? I’m honestly still not getting it
It's a "When effect", that means that the synchro summons needs to be the last thing to happen in the last chain for it to trigger. In this case it was resolved at CL2, since fenrir ef was the last thing to resolve, Trident dragion missed the timing of it's activation hence why it's illegal.
Trident Dragion needed to be synchro summoned as the very last action in the previous chain in order to get its effect. In the previous chain, the very last action was the negated Fenrir resolving its effect, not Trident being Synchro Summoned
"When [X]: You can" effects need to meet their condition as the last thing to happen prior to the current chain being formed. Fadra causing the Synchro Summon of Trident was not the last thing to happen though, it was the negated Fenrir attempting to resolve
When effect, so needs to be the last thing in the chain, in order for its effect to not “miss timing”.
Another example would be Hot Red Archfiend King Calamity.
Your turn comes and your opponent has Crimson Dragon + a Level 12 Synchro.
Turn player priority, you go CL1 Imperm target their crimson, they go CL2 Crimson target their Level 12 Synchro. Chain resolves.
CL2 the crimson brings out the calamity through its effect, and then CL1 Imperm targets and negates the crimson.
Doesn’t matter that King Calamity was summoned. Its floodgate effect won’t activate because it wasn’t the last thing in the chain to occur (it had to have been summoned as the last thing in the previous chain link.
@@yzusiajN ohhhhh ok thank you for helping me understand the ruling ^^
The worst is when people try to bully you into accepting their illegal plays, “are you sure that card can do that? Because I’m pretty sure that’s not what it means by , wouldn’t the card do when I activate ?”
Them: “Nah dude I’ve been playing this deck like this against everyone, that’s how it works trust me”
Then when you call the judge like “I’m just gonna make sure cause I don’t think it does that or maybe me or you is reading the interaction wrong” they get sooo mad and childish
“Woww why do you need to call a judge man can you literally not read I told u thats what the card does but whatever call a judge then, it doesn’t matter 😡😡”
(P.S. Plz let me win the rarity 01 giveaway 😭 I just want to open one pack of it 😭😭)
I like how in #3, when you said "Opponent the chains into Trident" i was already thinking Why would they do that? It's a when summoned. then it was #4 lol
If you ever feel stupid for not knowing some of these rulings or interactions. Always remember: There’s always someone on Duelingbook that knows WAY less than you. Don’t beat yourself up too much, at least you can acknowledge you made a mistake
Enigmaster is because ALL extra deck cards implicitly have the text ‘MUST FIRST be summoned by’
So unless a card specifically states ‘ignoring it’s summoning conditions’ than you cannot special summon an extra deck monster without having first summoned it normally, but again, cards that say ‘ignoring it’s summoning conditions’ trump that rule
Only when summoning it from the Extra Deck can "ignoring summoning conditions" be applied.
If it wasn't properly summoned and ends up in a public location, they still will not be able to be revived.
People disliked the negated Fenrir activation because the ability to activate a negated monster exists opposite the fact that you aren’t allowed to “do something for no reason”. You can’t imperm under Skill Drain. That being said, Logan is my boy so fuck the haters.
People commonly make that association that negated=can't activate.
I've activated card effects of negated cards just to be met with "It won't do anything" (before the chain is even revolving), to which I reply "I'm aware. It will resolve negated."
For monsters, applied negation can be removed by flipping it face-down, which can make a difference when building a chain.
@@TwoSmooveGood example is Hieratic Spheres probably.
Even if it’s negated, you can still activate the effect to send itself.
@jumpiestaman100 That is a great example. Then, the GY effect can trigger and resolve with effect since it is a new copy activating it.
On the side note, Bacha is pronounced baha, as reference to the musician Johann Sebastian Bach
But Baka is funny
You should try and provide more card effect text is possible, it's hard to try and answer the questions if I don't really know what's going on
I hate old school texts. Especially “when” clauses and missing timing rules.
What is your opinion on this play?
Player A activates an effect from hand, example Stone Sweeper; "You can discard this card; add 1 Level 3 or lower Fiend Tuner from your Deck to your hand, also you cannot Special Summon from the Extra Deck for the rest of this turn, except Fusion or Synchro Monsters." Chain 1
Player B responds with Ragnaraika Chain Coils effect; "If your opponent activates a monster effect (except during the Damage Step): You can activate this effect; neither player can activate the effects of monsters in the hand this turn." Chain 2
Player A has no response.
Chain resolves 2 ->1
Does the effect of Stone Sweeper go through?
I assume it would, since the card was already activated and the only part remaining is resolving each effect of each chain.
Stone sweeper still goes through because it already activated, but you obviously can't activate other monsters after that chain resolves from the hand
Trident misses timing ? 🤦♂️ that’s wild.. but the other level 10 stops your opponent activating effecting in bp anyways 😊
They also need better or more support for the other rings brace girls.
The situation with packbit does make sense he is from the extra deck but why is it Horus Lv8 can't be special summoned from grave via level modulation unless it's summoned properly Horus Lv8 is a main deck monster and level mod ignores summoning conditions smh...
Because you still have to have summoned a monster properly before reviving it from a location that is public knowledge. It has its own summoning conditions but the requirement of being properly summoned first before summoning it from the gy is game mechanics/rules.
Pkease make powder blue sleeves. Im running out of my stockpile of old player's choices
Whoa. If a monster is already negated till the end of the turn and then booked it would still be negated.
However if a card like skill drain is on feild and then you book it would then resolve.
At the time it's flipped face down, a negation like Veiler or Imperm will wear off.
So if Fenrir (that is negated by Imperm) is used as CL1, then Book of Moon targeting Fenrir as CL2, on the resolution of CL2 Fenrir is placed face down and at that time the effect of Imperm wears off, so at the resolution of CL1 the target of Fenrir is banished since no other effect interacts with it.
This is not to be confused with a card like Ash Blossom which negates the effect itself and not the monster. In the case of Unicorn CL1, Blossom CL2, Book CL3, despite Unicorn being placed face down, Blossom will still negate the effect to add.
Changing a monster facedown is the exception. If you remove an Impermed monster from the field by say, destroying Fenrir with Offerings to the Doomed, it would be negated. But if you used Fenrir and chained a Book of Moon, it would resolve just fine.
@@babrad I glanced over this and managed to mix up Kashtira Unicorn (which you were using) with Knightmare Unicorn lol. I was like "how are you booking a Link Monster?" then it clicked.
Also to add to the previous comment, effects activate and resolve at the same place.
So if your monster removes itself from the field while being negated, for example Samsara D Lotus tributing itself to summon a Yubel, then the effect will resolve on the field where Samsara was negated so it doesn't resolve successfully. The argument "but it's in the GY now so Imperm wore off" isn't correct because the effect activated and resolved on the field.
For an effect to bypass that we have the example of Tour Guide summoning a Fiendish Rhino Warrior with its effects negated. While on the field, the continuous effects are negated. Going to the GY is the requirement to activate, so it activates AND resolves in the GY where the negation placed by Tour Guide has finished applying, and the effect resolves successfully.
Lingering effects stop applying when the monster is flipped face-down on the field.
Can we normalize how complicated this game is and have some sort of resource that is easily accessible to players and judges to understand how cards work!! I am a big advocate for some sort of app you can load up you can build the game state and chain links and see how everything resolves or if things are even legally activatable lol if that’s a word 😂 Konami make it happen!!
You just gotta study this game and its thousand ruling religiously.
@@thebringer-dreamerdragon-6067 lol you right and I get that it would just be nice to have a universal place to get correct information. There should not be multiple interpretations of how certain cards interact with each other so everyone can be in the same page!
That would be ideal, but Konami doesn't care enough to make something like that happen. Any passion projects that attempt to do something like that will be met with "Oh but it's not official so it doesn't count!"
melodious players 🤝 cheating
I don’t think the first one is correct. Lingering effects like imperm and effect veiler work on melodius. The protection protects the effect getting negated, such as cards like ash. OCG player here
Trust me it’s correct. While Bacha is Active, the negated fusions of other melodious should still be active even if their card is negated.
If Bacha gets negated the protection gets negated.
While Bacha is active, even if you have bagooska, your effects will go through.
It’s like altergeist protocol.
Imperm and Veiler work specifically on Bacha because they in turn negate its text that protects Melodious fusion effects in the first place. Since the veiler was used on Etoile, and Bacha's effects were all live, Bacha protects Etoile's quick effect. It's the same reason why you can end on Etoile, bacha, and bagooska and still have a live Etoile effect.
6:30
2/5 Melodious rulings. I'll take that 😁
Should bring sleeves to nats
Why would not trident activate? After the chain resolves, trident still syncro summoned. It would like be you chained i:p to link summon s:p. After all chains have been resolved, s:p effect would activate, since it was properly summoned. It would activate on a new chain.
Short answer is When vs If timing. Basically Trident Dragion is an old card :p
If the effect that allowed you to Synchro Summon is not CL1, then the last thing to happen in that chain is whatever CL1 was. When Trident was summoned, the chain was still resolving, meaning that the "When" in the previous chain was NOT Trident being summoned.
Had Trident been an "If" effect, it would not matter when in the last chain it was Synchro summoned, just that it was special summoned.
*be stopped
Tom Box be looking less enthusiastic making videos lately.
I just feel he's just tired, more so lack of energy than passion, he made the streams such a treat from his enthusiasm.
I am just tired. I can back from YCS and immediately put back to my day job while wanting to craft videos, writing a judge document for regionals this weekend I am exhausted
@MSTTV Rest easy bro. Still love the content-
Need to be*
OP
Yuh
What drives me crazy about melodious monsters....
The ones based on actual musicians and other terminologies..
Bacha, is based off the composer Bach. All youre doing is saying bach-a not ba-cha.
I've even heard people refer to concerto as concert-o, when its pronouced conchairto.
Sorry band nerd😂😂😂
Drives me nuts too, and I'm not even a band nerd!
Nice title NERD
This is a silly video 😅 i feel like any experienced player would already know these things. And it feels like you're actively calling out people from the ycs who were nervous on stream lol
you can't flip am impermed monster to resolve it legally! that only works under skill drain because of its specific wording saying "while they are face-up on the field". if the monster was impermed, the effects that activate on field don't go through. I hope that was just a misspeak
Incorrect. Face down monsters are no longer negated, and their effects will resolve normally. You can see this in effect in examples like CL1 Robina CL2 Veiler CL3 Book target Robina CL4 Imperm. Imperm resolves negating Robina, but because Book flips Robina face down, its negated status goes away and will resolve normally as CL1.
@@KatsuneUndercover oh ok. I know it doesn't work by sending the monster to the gy with droplet for example, is it just different for face down?
@@Mal-Function4 yes, a monster being face down is different
Everytime I watch these, they’re all basic knowledge rulings… 🤦🏻♂️ I wish market watch had its own separate channel 😞
6:30