It's a great exercise. Just because it lacks a full range of motion doesn't mean it lacks merit. The shortened position of many of our muscles is often the position they are most weak in. Performing working isometrics like ITW's are great ways to promote strength within that shortened range of motion, if at least help the client connect with different muscles they have a difficult time normally feeling, thus improving the rest of their training. But of course it depends, does your client need to do that exercise? Maybe their ability to retract/protract is as good as it needs to be, and they aren't suffering from any shoulder pain. Well then I wouldn't waste my time in the session necessarily doing ITW's with them. But there are plenty of other examples of people who's shoulder health was inadequate to say the least. No such thing as a bad exercise, only bad context. Except don't take that too literally, there are tons of bad exercises. xD
Great video. The other issue with this exercise is that it's often used to help people with rotator cuff issues, (to strengthen the lower traps in order to improve the scapular position, to take pressure of the rotator cuff muscles), but people with rotator cuff issues get impingement in this position. So they can't do this exercises without irritating subacromial structures.
PREACH!! Getting heavy, consistent lower trap activation is nearly impossible with me having tight pec minor, tight lats, and messed up rotator cuff muscles like teres major/minor. I can't ever get consistent lower trap engagement without messing up something *already* messed up in the shoulder area.
Well, Jeff Cavalier advocates the prone floor version. But Eric's explanation makes sense. If there is no scapular mobility in the first place then the floor-based exercise is useless.
Excellent Clinical Reasoning, I've had my fair share of doubts about prone Ys viability in training. As a PTA I know I am a subjective of my Superivising PT who enjoys thier prone Ys. Our paitents however I have noted the frustration in both them and myself in trying to coach improvement in biomechanics secondary to biased mentions in this video. I do appreciate the look into and alternative suggestion to this overused /poorly corrective exercise.
I just did the Y and it hurt the front of my shoulder.. i did the T and it wasnt so bad.. i did the W and that one stil hurt a little bit but no where near the Y... Do u know what that means? Or what could possibly be injured if laying down doing that Y exercises hurts the front of my shoulder
I agree with this in that athletes with weak lower traps and rhomboids will struggle with the floor version at end range. What ends up happening is arching of the lower back, shrugging, recruitment of other muscles. But the floor version is excellent for advanced athletes who know how to set their scaps and keep it in position during the movement and focus on squeezing with the rhomboids and lower traps. The bench version is great for beginners. You can even use an incline if horizontal is too difficult. And then progress to using weights.
When I do these and prone w I get tightness in right side of neck and right shoulder feels like needs to pop. Gonna stop til I got back to pt. Can’t be normal!!!
I also have a little bit of clicking and popping in the shoulder (and sometimes in the elbow, but only when I'm in a weird position while trying to stretch my arm). The clicking never hurts, just weirds me out. The only pain I get is after throwing, sometimes in the bicep, front of the shoulder or inside of the elbow. The pain likes to move around me
+Eric Cressey Love the videos! Quick question, what are some good exercises to fix a "loose" shoulder? My right shoulder has some excess mobility and feels like it can "pop" out of place (although it never has and probably won't. It just feels like it can). The looseness comes from playing D1 football (lots of heavy chest and trap exercises, not doing enough work on the muscles that stabilize the shoulder, and lots of tackling lol). I also played baseball for 27 years (5 years at a very high level with 60+ games in short season). I do my cuff work, but when I work my throwing arm, I can tell my rotator cuff is underdeveloped and mostly feel it in my trap. I can't turn my traps off! Help!
With the Y raises i feel it nicely in my lower trap on my right side, which is my more dominant side. But when I do Y raise i cannot target lower trap in left side....my left shoulder joint feels like its popping out and unstable when i try this....can anyone explain?
YT Conor Harris "left aic right bc" pattern. Odds are your hips are messed up left/right AND front/back causing your ribcage to be dysfunctional which then means your shoulder (left in this pattern) to be in the wrong position to be strong.
Thank you so much for the video Eric. I've been told to do it, but my gut reaction was not to, and it just never made sense to me, plus I wouldn't feel it in my lower traps. Do you think a really bent over (torso almost parallel to the ground) way with dumbbells a good alternative for this? Although I need to point out I feel it almost exclusively on my delts, which I think contradicts the whole point of the exercise.
+Yusif Alizada No dumbbells dude, way too much resistance. The body is brilliant at adapting to its environment and getting from point A to point B one way or another. If you've got dumbbells in your hands, the weight is just too much that your posterior delts take over and drive the movement rather than the traps.
+Nathan Kiely I feel barely anything without dumbbells though. Or is that resistance supposed to be enough? Ie maybe the traps are *that* weak that just dumbbell-free version is enough, though it doesn't seem very intuitive. I'm thinking it could be done more to activate traps instead of strengthening them
+Yusif Alizada Yeah, you're not going to feel a 'burn' in the lower traps at all, it's just about activating the lower traps (which attach in the mid thoracic spine) and thus set the scapula in a more advantageous position in order to reduce impingement at the glenohumeral joint. It's not going to build a lot of muscle mass, but it will teach you correct movement patterns and joint alignment. Hope that helps dude.
+Nathan Kiely Thanks man, that's what I wanted to point out, yes there's definitely no major 'burn'. If it's about activating the lower traps, I believe I might already have nailed it. I either depress the scapula from sideways (think flexing lats), or from the midline/spine, which I believe also depresses the scapula, but using lower traps instead. Or maybe I think that's what's happening and I'm using only lats haha
Is this called the prone cobra? I was thinking of following your neanderthal no more program again. Is this the same exercise that is in that? Do you still recommend that program or should I follow a program from the high performance handbook instead? Which I have done before and was planning to do after neanderthal no more program. My posture reeeeaaally sucks. (many years of sitting in front a computer)
God I hate this exercise. Our conditioning coach makes us do it for footy even though most of us aren't in the necessary shape. I do it myself thinking, "Well this must be fucking my back."
Legend has it that guy is still lying there 😂😂
It's a great exercise. Just because it lacks a full range of motion doesn't mean it lacks merit. The shortened position of many of our muscles is often the position they are most weak in. Performing working isometrics like ITW's are great ways to promote strength within that shortened range of motion, if at least help the client connect with different muscles they have a difficult time normally feeling, thus improving the rest of their training. But of course it depends, does your client need to do that exercise? Maybe their ability to retract/protract is as good as it needs to be, and they aren't suffering from any shoulder pain. Well then I wouldn't waste my time in the session necessarily doing ITW's with them. But there are plenty of other examples of people who's shoulder health was inadequate to say the least. No such thing as a bad exercise, only bad context.
Except don't take that too literally, there are tons of bad exercises. xD
But he needed to capitalize on the trite “Don’t do it like this” genre that pervades TH-cam.
Great video. The other issue with this exercise is that it's often used to help people with rotator cuff issues, (to strengthen the lower traps in order to improve the scapular position, to take pressure of the rotator cuff muscles), but people with rotator cuff issues get impingement in this position. So they can't do this exercises without irritating subacromial structures.
PREACH!! Getting heavy, consistent lower trap activation is nearly impossible with me having tight pec minor, tight lats, and messed up rotator cuff muscles like teres major/minor. I can't ever get consistent lower trap engagement without messing up something *already* messed up in the shoulder area.
Awesome Video! Thank you
Excellent, as ever: clear, concise, vastly useful. Thank you!
Great explanation! Been working with a lot of middle age to senior clients lately this is a great way to teach them some trap 3 activation. Thank you
Well, Jeff Cavalier advocates the prone floor version. But Eric's explanation makes sense. If there is no scapular mobility in the first place then the floor-based exercise is useless.
A bit like the wall angels that so many trainers promote.
It is an advanced move that most can't achieve correctly.
Top video m8.
I wish I had that table and Eric Cressey at home so I could do this correctly!
I've seen someone demo this on TH-cam, saying that you can use your bed for this exercise.
great tips,thanks!
Great explanation. Unfortunately I don't have access to an high bench. Could you make this work on a fitness bench as well?
Kevflar you could add a couple cinder blocks to raise the bench up
For real not everyone has a bench at all
What about on an incline bench?
OMG ...What a gem you are Eric. Thanks a bunch!!!!
very helpful thanks
Perfect explanation, immediate sub, thank you, u r a boss
Excellent Clinical Reasoning, I've had my fair share of doubts about prone Ys viability in training. As a PTA I know I am a subjective of my Superivising PT who enjoys thier prone Ys. Our paitents however I have noted the frustration in both them and myself in trying to coach improvement in biomechanics secondary to biased mentions in this video. I do appreciate the look into and alternative suggestion to this overused /poorly corrective exercise.
Thank you for this video!
i don't do this exercise but how about prone T's? i have winged scapular and i'm doing them.
Thank you!
I just did the Y and it hurt the front of my shoulder.. i did the T and it wasnt so bad.. i did the W and that one stil hurt a little bit but no where near the Y... Do u know what that means? Or what could possibly be injured if laying down doing that Y exercises hurts the front of my shoulder
great info
I agree with this in that athletes with weak lower traps and rhomboids will struggle with the floor version at end range. What ends up happening is arching of the lower back, shrugging, recruitment of other muscles. But the floor version is excellent for advanced athletes who know how to set their scaps and keep it in position during the movement and focus on squeezing with the rhomboids and lower traps. The bench version is great for beginners. You can even use an incline if horizontal is too difficult. And then progress to using weights.
When I do the Y exercisethe front of my shoulder really hurts on my left. Do U know why that would be.. I also having trouble shrugging that side too
When I do these and prone w I get tightness in right side of neck and right shoulder feels like needs to pop. Gonna stop til I got back to pt. Can’t be normal!!!
Yeah, sounds like your engaging the upper traps too much
thank you for great content :)
I also have a little bit of clicking and popping in the shoulder (and sometimes in the elbow, but only when I'm in a weird position while trying to stretch my arm). The clicking never hurts, just weirds me out. The only pain I get is after throwing, sometimes in the bicep, front of the shoulder or inside of the elbow. The pain likes to move around me
mserth22 you might have snapping scapula. Mine does the same.
+Eric Cressey Love the videos! Quick question, what are some good exercises to fix a "loose" shoulder? My right shoulder has some excess mobility and feels like it can "pop" out of place (although it never has and probably won't. It just feels like it can). The looseness comes from playing D1 football (lots of heavy chest and trap exercises, not doing enough work on the muscles that stabilize the shoulder, and lots of tackling lol). I also played baseball for 27 years (5 years at a very high level with 60+ games in short season). I do my cuff work, but when I work my throwing arm, I can tell my rotator cuff is underdeveloped and mostly feel it in my trap. I can't turn my traps off! Help!
Friend, how are your shoulder right now?
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With the Y raises i feel it nicely in my lower trap on my right side, which is my more dominant side. But when I do Y raise i cannot target lower trap in left side....my left shoulder joint feels like its popping out and unstable when i try this....can anyone explain?
YT Conor Harris "left aic right bc" pattern. Odds are your hips are messed up left/right AND front/back causing your ribcage to be dysfunctional which then means your shoulder (left in this pattern) to be in the wrong position to be strong.
Is there a variation for someone with long arms and no access to a tall table?
Chris Park gymnastic ball
Thank you so much for the video Eric. I've been told to do it, but my gut reaction was not to, and it just never made sense to me, plus I wouldn't feel it in my lower traps. Do you think a really bent over (torso almost parallel to the ground) way with dumbbells a good alternative for this? Although I need to point out I feel it almost exclusively on my delts, which I think contradicts the whole point of the exercise.
+Yusif Alizada No dumbbells dude, way too much resistance. The body is brilliant at adapting to its environment and getting from point A to point B one way or another. If you've got dumbbells in your hands, the weight is just too much that your posterior delts take over and drive the movement rather than the traps.
+Nathan Kiely I feel barely anything without dumbbells though. Or is that resistance supposed to be enough? Ie maybe the traps are *that* weak that just dumbbell-free version is enough, though it doesn't seem very intuitive. I'm thinking it could be done more to activate traps instead of strengthening them
+Yusif Alizada Yeah, you're not going to feel a 'burn' in the lower traps at all, it's just about activating the lower traps (which attach in the mid thoracic spine) and thus set the scapula in a more advantageous position in order to reduce impingement at the glenohumeral joint. It's not going to build a lot of muscle mass, but it will teach you correct movement patterns and joint alignment. Hope that helps dude.
+Nathan Kiely Thanks man, that's what I wanted to point out, yes there's definitely no major 'burn'. If it's about activating the lower traps, I believe I might already have nailed it. I either depress the scapula from sideways (think flexing lats), or from the midline/spine, which I believe also depresses the scapula, but using lower traps instead. Or maybe I think that's what's happening and I'm using only lats haha
Sounds like you're on the right track bud. Might be worth having a coach observe you too just to get an objective view.
Is this called the prone cobra? I was thinking of following your neanderthal no more program again. Is this the same exercise that is in that? Do you still recommend that program or should I follow a program from the high performance handbook instead? Which I have done before and was planning to do after neanderthal no more program. My posture reeeeaaally sucks. (many years of sitting in front a computer)
+rumpsugg It is not a prone Cobra.
You must be related to football player Arjen Robben!
Most exercises aren't good when they're not performed correctly. If you concentrate on your form, engage your core etc. they are very good.
Except this one.
God I hate this exercise. Our conditioning coach makes us do it for footy even though most of us aren't in the necessary shape. I do it myself thinking, "Well this must be fucking my back."
d
utter nonsense regarding end range movement
Thank you for this!!!