Admiral Beresford and the 2nd Pacific Squadron - What if Britain had gone to war?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 18 ก.ย. 2024
- Today we take a look at just how close the Royal Navy came to engaging the Russian 2nd Pacific Squadron, and what the most likely outcome of that would have been.
Sources:
www.usni.org/m...
The History of the Russo-Japanese War - Sydney Tyler
The Tsar's Last Armada
MARITIME OPERATIONS IN THE RUSSO-JAPANESE WAR, 1904-1905 - Volume 2 - Sir Julian Corbett
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Pinned post for Q&A :)
Admiral Rozhestvensky and Admiral Togo switch navies. Would Rozhestvensky, now no longer held back by having to command the single most incompetent naval force in history and whip them into something resembling combat capability, do an even better job at Tsushima than Togo historically did?
the most likely outcome, of course, is that Russia would suddenly have many of the newest style submarines
Would you ever do a video about armed trawlers?
If war had happened would the RN have a ship named Kamchatka? Sorry, joke question. Serious question - if the channel had have been blockaded, do you think the 2nd Pacific Squadron could have made it north around the British Isles?
Outside your usual scope but still want to ask, during the "cod wars" a British "frigate" rammed an Icelandic coastguard vessel, very nearly causing the Icelandic vessel to capsize. According to Icelandic sources the "frigate" limped back to Britain with a giant gash just above waterlevel. Do you know if that is true and what ship/class it was, since "frigate" encompasses more in Icelandic than in English.
I do believe Rozhestvensky's best option if he had been cornered by Beresford would be to send the Kamchatka over to the British with his surrender terms aboard, wait for the British fleet to inexplicably sink as Kamchatca's curse was transferred to them and then carry on as he did.
He's not that lucky. He'd be watching through the 20th set of binos for that day as Kamchatka comes about and runs back to him frantically flashing with their signal lamps "we're under attack from Japanese torpedo boats from all sides!"
He'd send the Kamchatka over with terms and the Kamchatka would instead open fire on the British believing them to be the Japanese
War is hell, an enemy support ship doubly so.... .
Could have given it as a "goodwill" gesture to the Japanese, with its "highly trained crew" and made it their issue.
He also had the option of challenging the British to a binocular tossing competition
*Admiral Rodjestvensky seeing 20+ British battleships stating him down while he’s in port:* "Well, it's hopeless, so we may as well be interned and hope the British let us go in time to re-join the war."
*HIRMS Kamchatka:* "So anyway, I started blasting..."
I reckon Rozhestvensky would have time to throw another set of binoculars and string of curses at Kamchatka, before it along with him and his fleet are turned into so much sinking scrap metal, by the rather large and rather bemused British force of at most 27 battleships.
Admiral Rozjestvensky might have ordered his own guns to make the horor-ship disappear.
@@myparceltape1169 with his force they'd probably hit the British by mistake
@myparcel tape Sort of a self serving peace offering. 😄
@@thegrandnope7143 All ship target Kamchatka and open fire and continue to fire until that cursed ship is destroyed, then raise the white flag.
I would like to see a video on whether a Majestic class pre-dreadnought has sufficient armor to survive a direct hit from Rozhestvenskys binoculars being thrown at point blank range.
I don't think a Galaxy class heavy capital ship of the Federation could survive that, shields and all.
I wonder if it could withstand being in the same formation as the Kamchatka
😂😂😂😂
@@ricky6608 no
no ship ever devised could survive being in a squadron with Kamchatka; in one fashion or another, Kamchatka would eventually do something to cause every other nation's warships to fire on the squadron.
Kamatchka signals Royal Navy "Do you see torpedoes" in clear but poor signaling and language means RN assume torpedo attack is imminent, thus kicking off hostilities.
Due to an error in translation, the message sent read: "Go stick your head in a pig". Naturally offense was taken.
I'm not putting my money on the Russians here.... However, I like your analysis of Rozhestvensky as a pragmatist and your conclusion that a slugging match of any sort was unlikely.
I suppose the only option he realistically would’ve had against the RN, given his gunnery then being what it was, would’ve been to get under the British guns as fast as he could. Close with the British to literally point-blank muzzle-to-muzzle-even-a-Russian-can’t-miss range. 😂
I can imagine wikipedia page of the battle describing British casualties as "One poor sod of a Sub-Lieutenant got hit in the head by a pair of binoculars."
@@1zeisele Meanwhile a small armistice occurred when both fleets decided to destroy the Kamchatka out of sheer frustration.
I just don't think Rozhestvensky would have been able to prevent some of his ships from panicking and turning it into a battle for no reason. Rozhestvensky didn't want to engage British trawlers, but it happened anyway. Rozhestvensky probably wouldn't want to engage British battleships. I basically accept that logic. I just don't know if it would have happened anyway.
@@bkjeong4302 the Russians would definitely sink more ships in a slugging match.
Most of them their own, probably, given their track record of friendly fire...
I ran this scenario at Millennium Con, a wargaming con in Texas. The Mediterranean squadron intercepted the 2nd Pacific squadron and, despite a few losses, sank every Borodino-class battleship, every cruiser, and most of the older battleships.
In other words, Tsushima happens earlier, and in another part of the world
I do not remember, does it means the binoculars did not have to learn swimming? 😂
@@Emigdiosback Russia benefits from enormous savings on fuel bills. (And binoculars)
barring a battle fought at age of sail ranges it's very difficult to find a scenario that is favorable to the 2nd Pacific Squadron.
I don't understand where people get all this time to have so much fun. My last vacations in 10 years were for funerals over 1500 miles away. Im not broke either.
I recently told a manager at my work that he was the Kamchatka of the company. He asked what I meant, I told him it was a very very famous Russian warship that routinely did the impossible like it was nothing.
I will be using this one
I think the single salvo honor engagement would have occurred where the flagship unleashed a single broadside into the Kamchatka followed by surrender. My main question is whether Beresford would have treated Rozhestvensky with honor and allowed him to keep his binoculars.
Of course he would have - a Rozhestvensky without binoculars might choose some other method to release his rage. And nobody would risk that ...
Kamchatka: "MORE TORPEDO BOATS!"
Rozhestvenstky: *Turns to aide* "Where's my box of binoculars? I'm going to sink that damn ship-"
*Explosion*
Zeiss: Yes let the hate flow.......
Or... 😅 decides this is all too much for one man, climbs into boiler 😂
One of my favourite alternative history scenarios, being both fairly plausible AND with multiple far-reaching global consequences.
This could possbly saved Europe from worst of ww1 and ww2 at all.
With Russia and UK at odds, it would mean UK not going to war in 1914, France being defeated by Germany in 1914 campaign, and Russia going out next by 1915 at worst. No bloodbaths of 1916-18, no collapse of empires, no nazizm and bolshevism.
Don’t forget how much this would affect IJN strategic doctrine (though I expect that some elements, such as trying to compensate for lack of numbers with things like qualitative superiority and Type 93s, would still be present as Japan would still face restrictions in its naval buildup due to lack of infrastructure).
It's funny that the actual historical events leading up to Tsushima somehow feel *less* plausible than this scenario does.
"The Russians are sending a fleet from St. Petersburg all the way to the Pacific? Pull the other one!"
@@ewok40k Britain was a guarantor of Belgian neutrality so I think she would be obliged to intervene even without an alliance with France and Russia.
I do wonder if Japan would still have felt empowered to take on the US Navy and Royal Navy in the Pacific had it never had its decisive naval battle victory over a European Great Power?
One slightly possible outcome had it come to a battle between the Royal Navy and the Russians could have been that a lucky Russian shot gets rid of Admiral Beresford, thus eliminating one of Fisher's most annoying foes.
But how about beaties future flag lt also...
And Yamamoto keeps all his digits. Makes it easier to win duels with glory-seeking high ups.
Consider the alternative, however. If Beresford leads a British fleet in the destruction of the Russians, he will be in a far, far stronger position to challenge Fisher going forward. This might mean that the Dreadnaught era either doesn't happen, or is seriously retarded, and Fisher himself might find his career crippled, to say the least.
As a minor point, Togo will not have the victory at Tsushima to deify him, and this will change Japanese naval development somewhat as well...
The trawler was manned by trawlermen from Hull. There is a monument on Hessle Road in Hull to those who died on the trawler. Hessle Road was where most trawlermen came from.
On a dry dock a while back you answered a question on bringing an old admiral back to present day. I'd bring back Rozhestvensky, hand him the current events, a box of binoculars, and press record on my phone.
Ohhh, why would you be so mean to the poor guy? He already had to put up with the Kamchatka.
But oh man, I can imagine his fury over the state of the current Russian navy!
"The Moskva was sunk HOW?" *THROWS BINOS HARD ENOUGH TO CAUSE AN EXPLOSION THAT EVAPORATES THE ENTIRE BLACK SEA*
@@alexmiller2089 Wait until he reads about the Kuznetsov.
@@hillogical He would have that abomination decommissioned and used for gunnery practice
@@alexmiller2089 I honestly doubt he'd go through the decommissioning process first.
If I could time travel and speak Russian, I'd really liked to spend some time on the Kamchatka during its voyage. It seems like it was a floating madhouse.
You would probably be driven mad just by being anywhere near that ship I mean look at what it did to the poor admiral of the second Pacific Squadron
Sadly, I'm going to have to admit it, I would like to join you.
Seems like a good plot for a Dr Who Christmas episode.
Or a revolutionary haven.
Im not sure 😅 i feel like it would be an excersize in frustration. Would be like hanging out with a bunch of australian union construction "workers" only turned up to 11. Only stupidity from mouths and no work done despite speaking like the no work they did all day was hard, arduous and unfair.
I'm surprised no one has gone looking for the Wrecks of the battle of Tsushima, the only wrecks that have been located is the cruisers Dimitri Donskoi ( found in 2003 ) and Admiral Nakhimov ( found in 1980 ). All of the other ships are forgotten about , in fact most shipwrecks of the Russo-Japanese war have not been found, except 2 cruisers and the Gunboat " Korea ". Even the japanese ships are not yet found.
We must find Rozhestvensky's magical box of binoculars
We MUST find the Kamchatka
@@itsmeyaboi1441 And make sure it's still there.
@@DutchBlackManthano, it’s for the best to leave that curse at the bottom of the ocean. Lest we accidentally unleash its full power upon us again
@@itsmeyaboi1441 i'd imagine Kamchatka's wreck has probably collapsed to the sea floor at this point, she was built from a civilian liner and most civilian wrecks from that era have already collapsed.
2nd Pacific Squadron story deserves a mini series on Netflix. It has it all, vodka, action, adventure, comedy and tragedy. If there was romance, we don't want to know. Even a Science Fiction show that modified and copied the story, - it's Gold. Titanic X 30.
Check out the novel "Straits of Tsushima by Tim Chant. It features the Pacific squadron story.
Your interest in a comedy this black disturbs me.
"Cosplay as a battleship..." Well, that's a first.
The only thing I would add to future presentations is a map every once in a while. Then I'd probably complain about not showing the fantastic photography for long enough. Thank you very much in any case. I hope you enjoy the rest of your week.
Yeah might indeed be nice to have a map to detail the first time a location gets mentioned, I mostly know most, but certainly would've been nice to see how the net was weaved
My grandfather was at the Dogger Bank incident. He rescued fishermen from the sea went on to serve in the RN in WWI and RNVR in WWII
This was a well researched and thought-out scenario. However, one important detail is missing:
how would the Kamchatka throw a spanner into the works and start an all-out shooting war?
If it came down to a confrontation with Beresford's battleships, I suspect the first thing Rozhestvensky would have done would be to order Kamchatka sunk in self-defence.
Its very presence in the hemisphere would have done it. No spanner required.
Inevitably, and in a highly improbable manner...
@@Dafmeister1978 still one hilarious yet unfunny way to start a world War around 8 years too soon.
Unfortunately, anything we could speculate for this alternative history scenario would likely be insufficient for the what Kamchatka would really find to cock up.
I can imagine that the 'broadside for honour' will score more hits on the opposing fleet than the 2nd Pacific Sqn could do while actually trying to hit them
Like Fort Sumter where the only US soldier killed was when a final salute was fired as the fort surrendered.
The broadside for honor was frequently fired by guns facing away from the enemy fleet so as to avoid pissing them off if they were accidentally hit.
Yes, however this is the Russian 2nd Pacific Sqn, who scored more hits on each other (usially Aurora) than whatever their target actually was. They (probably Kamchatka) would find a way
The Kamchatka would probably misinterpret the orders and attempt a torpedo run on the British flagship all guns firing and sink the Russian flagship instead. The British would just sit their in disbelieving shock.
"...you can come quietly, or you can die." Drach and I clearly share a similar sense of humor.
"Come quietly or there will be ... trouble!"
Third option: Kamchatka fires inside the port, hits a Spanish shop (shop not ship, a Spanish shop in the port), and then both Spaniards and British proceed to sink the whole Russian fleet while Rozhestvensky's efforts are just to hoist a boat, go to the Kamchatka, and beat the captain using a pair of binoculars while shells are falling left and right around him. What? Rozhestvensky was a pragmatic guy, so he may think "At this point, nothing there is nothing I can do to avoid dead so if I'm going to die at least I will die murderizing that son of a sleazy whore first"
I wounder how many replacements binoculars Zeiss did sell ; )
@@kirgan1000 I remember Drach speaking about that in a Drydock, but I can't remember which one, but it was LONG ago.
Spanish ship chip shop?
At least the Admiral gets the immense satisfaction of beating Kamchatka's captain to death with his own hands.
@@Ridliman IIRC in the 2nd Pacific squadron video he said that his staff had bought a box of 50 pairs of binoculars before the journey.
Having studied the second voyage to a fair extent it always surprises me that the fishing trawlers did not counterattack the Russian fleet and win a victory. It would have been a kindness to the Russian Seamen to have fought the British fleet right there, sparing them a long, horrible voyage and being sunk in a place where they had little hope of surviving. If the conflict had occurred in the channel some of the Russian ships could have at least been able to run themselves ashore
If they seek refuge in French waters the Kamchatka opening fire on the French will trigger a traditional French flag raising ceremony involving a drapeau blanc and thus forever changing the course of European history.
@@Brecconable Except! This is the period of time where French leaderships incompetence was matched, only by there stubbornness...
Meaning that they would probably damage and/or sink most of the Russian ships only to run aground thus ending the battle in a draw
True, it would have been enough to cross the Russian formation and they would have destroyed each other. Of course the Kamchatka would survive - and then open fire on their home port after thinking it was taken over by the Japanese ...
Well, the 2nd Pacific Squadron's _definitely_ going to know why Britannia rule the waves.
No amount of binoculars can stop His Majesty's navy
Used to*
Admiral Rozesvensky: *(As British shells screams towards him and a look of relief from his suffering on his face)* Oh thank God... *(KABOOM!!!)*
You seem to be misusing present tense 😉
@@weldonwin No, I would go with another comment, with Rozesvensky taking the opportunity to go beat the captain, and likely half the crew, of the Camchatcka to death for their idiocy.
During the Battles of Port Arthur japan lost 2 Battleships and 2 Cruisers to The Same Mine Field off port arthur. Between May and September of 1904, the Japanese battleships Yashima and Hatsuse + the Cruisers Saien, Takasago and Gunboat Heien all sank after running into the same minefield set by the russian Russian minelayers Amur and Yenisei, Yenisei sank herself twice on the same minefield. 2 days later the cruiser Boyarin sank after running into the same minefield. Amur and Yenisei sank more ships that any other warship in the russo-japanese war.
Never underestimate minelayers, in ww2 a minefield practically ruined operation Cerberus
@@toawing Gallipoli, 1 minelayer laid a string of mines that accounted for 3 battleships in one day, the British and French navies gave up the attempt to storm the straights and attempt a land campaign
@@richardcowling7381 it's amazing how they didn't work out how to counter sea mines
No matter what happens in any scenario, the Kamchatka would still be up to her crazy antics, sowing chaos in her wake.
One reason the US Great White Fleet did so well in the Spanish American War was the battleships and cruisers had a lot of gunnery practice.
Rozhestvensky would probably have been tempted to send Kamchatka out first to reconnoiter and then follow a short time later to strike his colors and pick up survivors.
@Hoàng Dũng Nguyễn Well, that would be what he was officially *trying* to do. It's just pure bad luck that every one of his ships was so badly handled that it ran over the survivors as it tried to pull up to them, instead...
The diplomatic side is mostly new to me, and it's kind of amazing: history somehow found a way to make the 2nd Pacific Squadron's experience _even worse_ than it seemed before.
The 2nd Pacific Squadron may be my favorite piece of nsval history. I struggle to think of anything I adore more than that story.
One would be hard pressed to find a more horrendously hilarious piece of naval history
But seriously, folks, we need to remember how the black comedy of the 2nd Pacific Squadron ends. The worst fleet on the seven seas meet one of the best ... and gets massacred.
Thanks for an excellent video
I think you hit it right on the head with your analysis of Rozhestvenstky's actions.
It's usually the armchair admirals or politicians who are most eager for battle, even when it's hopeless.
Snowing like hell here, expecting 5-8 inches. Perfect time to pour a glass, kick back the chair, and watch this by the fire.
Thanks Drach !
Voyage of the damned. You need to crowd fund a movie for this!
Preferably with the cast of The Death of Stalin
When I read the title of the video I asked myself if it would take more than a minute for Kamchatka to be mentioned. 1:03 min 🤣
Great topic Drach!!
Yes, we Patreons are very wonderful.
I firmly believe that if war did break out. They would have actually gone with the plan to meet them ship for ship. Because deploying Home Fleet against them would be the furthest thing from Cricket possible.
Most likely result?
Beresford: ,,Strike your colours and stay in place, until politicians can resolve the situation."
Rozhestvenskiy: ,,Da, we don't want trouble with Britain, we will stay calm, as long as nobody opens fire."
Kamchatka, looking at the British battle line: ,,Oh no, more Japanese torpedo boats. Fire at will!"
Beresford and Rozhestvenskiy look at each other, they both nod in mutual understanding and a combined barrage from both battle lines slaps Kamchatka into the middle of the next century. End of the story.
Excellent, this is something I've wondered about since the Voyage of the Damned video.
Been working on a book about this exact topic, and your videos on the subject have been immensely helpful
I have always been amazed they made it all. Only to be slaughtered. Voyage of the doomed. Always thought Teddy sent the Great White Fleet as a statement that the US could pull off what Russia...or anyone else not named the Royal Navy... could not. The ship pictures are one of my favorite parts of the channel but on videos like this an occasional map would be useful. I know my geography but a visual helps. Thanks. Love the channel.
Thank you for a good video Drach. ^^
Thank God Rozhestvensky was a capable officer. I think he would not go out and fire a broad side for honour because once his ships was cleared for firing they wouldn't stop - unless they were sunk or ran out of shells.
Don't worry, Commarades - the Kamchatka got this.
Fleet Admiral jumps overboard with his entire Box of Binoculars yelling "NOPESKI!".
The power of the Royal Navy back then is truly awesome, they would have squashed the 2nd like a bug. Had they fought, he probably wouldn't have sailed out into certain death for him and his men as you stated at the end of video, then saving more lives because the battle of Tsushima Strait wouldn't have happened. 👍
No question on the RN’s overall strength at the time, but I found it interesting how few top-line battleships where in home waters at the time. Of course they had plenty more at Gibraltar & in the Med (as well as elsewhere around the world) but I would have thought the RN would have had a fleet in home waters at the ready given they knew the Russian Baltic fleet was going to sail so close to their home.
Completely agree with your analysis. Rosesvenski was a realist. His mission was Japan not the RN. Likely would have communicated with St. Petersburg before attacking, assuming a mistake had been made. He would not have thrown away his nation's only chance to affect the Pacific situation.
I'm so glad that in reality it turned out like it did, that was the most hilarious naval tale I have ever heard.Im so glad I heard it from you.Thanks Drach.
We all know the Pacific Squadron handily wins thanks to the spot on early warning from Kamchatka turning back the British torpedo boats.(obviously kidding)
And then they lose when they all shoot eachother.
What a treat to find more flesh on the story of the Voyage of the Damned! From the (now recovered) Covid patient you made laugh with the first video. Thanks Drach!
They fought off so many torpedo boats that weren't even there, imagine how many they could sink if torpedo boats actually showed up!
'She was cosplaying as a battleship', what a delightful turn of phrase.
We all agree that Rozhestvenstky would have done almost anything to avoid combat with the RN, but, if they met at sea there is the the likelihood of Kamchatka immediately firing on any small RN ships she spots......
Nice, not the outcome I expected but then this was very new and great context! Now got me thinking of a "what if the Fashoda Incident" went hot.
I think there are a few possible scenarios where they do end up duking it out. First option; one of Rozhestvensky’s ships fires without being ordered and this kicks off a general melee. Second option; Rozhestvensky or one of the squadrons under his command sees (or thinks they see) an opening and decides to try to outrun the British fleet down the west coast of Africa and get away without being interned. In either case. Third option; the Russian government behaves somewhat more obstinately and claims that they were actually torpedo boats, and that the British are lying as part of their alliance with Japan. This further infuriates the British population, who demand the destruction of the Second Pacific Squadron as vengeance for this insult to their national honor.
In any one of the cases, I think the British are likely coming out on top quite easily, and with an even more lopsided kill/loss ratio than the Japanese had at Tsushima. Even if Beresford takes only 4 battleships into battle, between the Russian gunnery being so terrible and the 2nd Pacific Squadron possibly being stuck in port, the British are essentially fighting in practice gunnery conditions and would likely annihilate Rozhestvensky’s forces without significant loss.
*Inhales Deeply* "I think it is probably best to refer to Sir Julian Corbett's rather magisterial maratime operations in the Russo-Japanese war of 1904-1905 volume two" *Many Inhaler Noises*
Oh boy, we've been waiting on this one for years. This is a great week
Long time subscriber here wishes there was some way you could add captions to the beautiful ship photos for name, date and location if known. Thanks for your hard work.
Fantastic storytelling ...
And always a certain grain of humour
Must have taken quite more than a year of research
getting THESE three videos online.
What an effort
Thank you !!
I could see Admiral Rozhestvensy upon sight of the British fleet jumping in a life boat. Paddling toward the British battleships as fast as he can begging them to save him form his fleet. Then after the battle Britain sending the Japanese a bill for the ammunition expended plus 10%. Which Japan would be happy to pay.
Maybe . . maybe the Kamchatka was trying to save the fleet by causing a n International incident. All these years it was misunderstood, it was trying to help the 2nd Pacific Squadron the entire time.
The interesting thing about this analysis is, had this happened, and had Rozhestvensky struck his colors: it might have actually been a net win for the Russians. they're already down a significant number of battleships...Tsushima effectively depleted the Russian pre-dreadnaught fleet. Thus, still having those seven around would've been an interesting proposition for later.
You might've seen a proper fleet sortie to counter the Moon Sound operation, instead of just Slava sniping at range.
Maybe the Russian commander tries to surrender, but what happens if Kamchatka has another bout of insanity while he is trying to surrender? And everyone panics (again) like they did at Dogger Bank? It's pretty clear at this point the crews of the 2nd Pacific squadron don't listen to command, have no idea of the realities of naval warfare, and will panic if they see so much as a rowboat.
Best case: Everybody dies.
Worst case: WW1 starts 10 years early.
That wouldn't necessarily be the worst case ... Industry wasn't ready for WW1 , neither was the German fleet I believe.
@@timgodderis1918
Given that Kamchatka fired on German and French civilian vessels we might actually see Germany as part of the Entente here, maybe even including a Grand Fleet + High Seas Fleet team-up a decade further down the line.
@Bk Jeong Doubly so if you consider the following.
Wilhelm was already kaiser by this point if I recall correctly, and as we know, he was keen on building a mighty empire that rivaled all others on land and sea. It's not too hard to imagine him viewing this as an opportunity to not only get his crews valuable experience in naval warfare, but as a chance to show what the Kaiserliche Marine was capable of.
Except this time, it would basically just be everyone in Europe + Japan vs. Russia, with the US pointing and laughing, and China glancing nervously at Japan. That war would be over in a couple months.
@@bluemarlin8138 This is a hilarious thought. Pointing and laughing indeed.
Thank you, Drachinifel.
Yay, the 2nd Pacific Squadron!
Pop a cold one and get the popcorn, it's going to get entertaining! ^^
Damn it, I was excited to find out who would get to sink Kamchatka in this scenario. Maybe they sail out for the single broadside BUT Admiral Rozhestvensky makes a special request to be allowed to turn all his guns on Kamchatka just to make certain they can't screw up the honourable surrender.
Not just the number of lives and ships that would have been saved, imagine the money a certain Admiral would have saved on binoculars....
My favorite Admiral of all time.
From the title, I was expecting a slightly tounge-in-cheek war game akin to other historical what-ifs you have examined previously. But this sober analysis turned out quite a bit more interesting!
2nd Pacific Squadron: _Extremely_ screwed.
Good timing, I just rewatched your 2nd Pacific Sqn videos yesterday!
Around 27:50-ish you mentioned the Russian Pacific Fleet being "interred" - That's about right, IMO...
Just when you think it couldn't have gotten worse for the 2nd Pacific Squadron.
"How could it possibly get any worse?" *SKREEEOOONNNKKK!* "OH, COME ON!"
Hey Drach, here's an suggestion for the 5 minute guide: the Trento class italian heavy cruisers
Came here for the Rozhestvensky's binocular comments, was not disappointed.
ooooh i want to hear this!
28:57 plus or minus some grumbling from the IJN ranks at being denied glorious battle.
Which is another major butterfly that’s going to come out of this.
@@bkjeong4302 that’s going to mess up the Kantai Kessen.
@@ph89787
Exactly.
That’s the point:)
Great video; thank you.
You don’t think the Russian admiral would be thinking;
1. The Czar will kill me if I surrender our last fleet to the English without a fight.
2. About what Britain did to the Danish fleet… TWICE.
Cheers
I really enjoyed this, it illustrates the strategic and political situation so well.
Interesting topic
Either looking at what really happened or in a What-if scenario such as this one, you can't help but having some simpathy for Rozhestvensky. A proper candidate to the "Semper Iratus" tittle after Admiral King. The man had some solid balls of steel and a good brain, as well.
One minor quip on this one, Drach. Kamchatka didn't pull any shenanigans, like sinking a trawler off the coast of Vigo, ramming the wharf at Tangiers or happily signaling the Royal Navy to stay away or risk be sunk.
Cheers!
What might have been the impact of thus denying the Japanese the opportunity to have their glorious victory at Tsushima? No subsequent confidence/pride boost, perhaps less war mongering and massive fleet build up...who knows. Knowing how historically cautious they tended to be when committing their fleet, would they still have been bold enough in Dec of '41, would they have built up the same sort of fleet at all? Impossible to answer but interesting to consider.
To paraphrase Obama, Never underestimate Kamchatka's ability to f*ck things up.
I guess we now know who the captain of that ship was.
You should do a discussion of your own family history as it pertains to naval history.
That’s okay. The Russians only needed to tell the Kamchatka that the Royal Navy were all torpedo boats, and the battle would have been over. Kamchatka was the Scrappy Doo of naval ships.
Don’t forget her gunnery was so bad she fired 300 rounds without hitting anything.
Cthulu "I am the God of madness"
Kamchatka "My vodka, hold it"
I have an idea for a video What if during the Falklands war the British and Argentine carrier fleets clashed
HMS Conqueror gets ravenous, I'd imagine.
Nothing good for the Argentines.
Very interesting what if
Now we need an account of the IJN Torpedo Boat Squadron at Dogger Bank.
He wouldn’t throw away his men but he would throw away the entire box of binoculars
👍🏻Nice nice 👍🏻
Thank you.
He could have given an attack order specifically to the Kamchatka and just watch the show... XD
Given the 2nd Pacific Squadron's gunnery skills, they are likely to have hit a British ship or two whilst trying to miss them.
I like the idea that the British let them go because the Japanese wired in that they would like to meet the 2nd pacific squadron for a fun battle.
I must admit I read a very interesting article about the Dogger Bank incident in a gentlemens magazine when I was alot younger. Yes I really did read the article not only look at the lovely young ladies
I am a descendant from his family. My dad and I were tracing our genealogy and I wanted to learn more. Thanks for making this video.
There is just one thought... All your possible outcomes disregard one thing... The wild card that was Kamchatka... She could have... pulled total annihilation out of any sensible, pragmatic solution
How would a broadside for honor work? Would there be signals saying it would be done? Would the shots be wildly off course or just come up short? Etc.
And the irony is that life would have worked out much better for the Russian sailors of the 2nd Pacific squadron if this incident had escalated to the point where the British had interned the Russian fleet.
Would've indeed been a mercy
What would be interesting is if France joined their Russian allies in a war against England. After which Germany and the Austro-Hungarian Empire joined the war on the side of the British against Russia and France. From an English perspective it would have been World War One in reverse. Such a war would have changed the course of the 20th Century beyond recognition.
Anyway, this would be a fascinating subject for a counter factual history. It would be even more noteworthy if America subsequently joined the war on the French side. As they actually did in 1917 in our time line.
Given some of Kamchatka’s shenanigans with shooting at just about everyone’s civilian ships, France and Germany might well join Britain and Japan in this scenario.
Oh, and Russia underwent a revolution in 1905, so we might end up seeing Russia have to fight Japan, Britain, Germany, France and itself at the same time.
How would Japan have responded? Gratitude to their allies? Resentment for "kill stealing"?
Thanks
I have no evidence but I am sure the French would of offered safe harbor to any damaged vessel as the Germans would be like "Oh, drama. Let's observe!"
Every neutral nation would have offered safe harbour to any damaged vessel. They'd just have interned the ships if they were unable to repair and leave in time (see three Russian cruisers at Philippines after Tsushima)