3:28 I just got a shameful feeling... the sad fact when you fully realize you've trudged through a game you would've already stopped playing just for some trophies.
I used to play games to kill hours before the quarantine, during I started playing some that had some content worth thinking about. BioShock, Spec Ops the Line, certain walking sims, Journey, that sort of thing. My brain almost melted from doing the same boring routine over and over all day
There is a quote I once saw, I cant remember who said it but I can remember what it basically said. "Living is the act of finding new beauty, everything else is a form of waiting." I think this applies to games and think that game designers should think more about that then pushing the graphics and frames per second.
How true; this assembly-line style of AAA games is an issue. Games should be seen as an form of art and entertainment, not just a carte blanche to print money. That’s why I’m more interested in lower-key and indie developers than most of the standard AAA stuff, although I do still enjoy my Mario games; there’s a genuine passion missing in a lot of AAA titles. That, and I’m not interested in many of the classic AAA genres, especially FPS, and my restriction to the DS line, Wii and iOS means I can’t play most of those titles even if I wanted.
This is why I LOVE NINTENDO games. They are almost purely intrinsic fun! You don't play Mario, Smash, or Mario Kart for any extrinsic value, it's just fun playing it!
***** I was doing some personal research on the uncanny valley and found their video on it. I forgot about it for a little bit, but I returned it when I remembered how awesome it was. I watched the video again and looked at more stuffy by Extra Credits. I've been hooked ever since.
When you talk about intrinsic rewards it reminds me of achievement hunting. Some achievements are so meta and require you to be so dedicated, that they require hundreds of hours of playing and grinding. For example, I've been non-stop grinding for 6 months just to acquire the Master Pioneer achievement in Lost Planet: Extreme Condition, one of the hardest achievements yet. It's astonishing how such small meta in games can push us so far. I know you guys have already done an episode on achievements, but there's so much that you missed. It'd be interesting to see a few episodes dedicated to achievement hunters themselves, but one can only dream.
+Noah Goldberg I definitely agree. That series' combat is brilliantly designed. Real-time interaction in a turn-based RPG was a really smart design choice.
Portal is a perfect example. The puzzles are fun and engaging, and when you complete them you are rewarded with more of the amusing(if also horrifying) monolog from GLaDOS.
Arkham Knight's Riddler trophies. Don't get me wrong, collecting them is fun, and doing some of the puzzles are neat, and the final boss fight at the end is awesome, but there are just too many of the bloody things. Not to mention, some of the puzzles are downright terrible, where you're expected to know information you aren't given. The novelty dies off pretty quickly when the only thing stopping you from an awesome boss fight and the game's true ending is 243 riddler trophies and 50 or so riddles that you can only get most of with a walkthrough, plus the riddles all relying on information from outside the game, like the comics, only excludes the people playing it for the game itself and not for Batman.
I returned the game because half way through a riddle bugged out and I knew that the true ending could only be achieved if you collect them all. If I kept it any longer the return time would expire and I wasn't willing to go through all that again if another trophy had a chance of breaking.
+DiscoClam This is part of why Batman: Arkham Asylum and City are so good... the Riddler part in both games are not only intrinsic, but they are optional (at least on the extrinsic side of it).
i liked the arkhan city ones, every puzzle could be completed without a walkthrough, at least i could, what really anoyed me whas that the only way to play without the counter help was beating the game once, why dont make the hard game acessible from the start ? because playing the same story in the second play becomes an extrinsical element
Very solid piece. 10/10 on this one. Interesting in regard to the industry trends in competitive gaming. Shooting a man in Counter-Strike is intrinsically rewarding. The little rush of winning a gun-battle where bullets are sending CS Office objects flying and both parties are just bullet-hosing the trigger in an unabashed PANIC (one bullet kills) is entertaining without motivation. That's why 60,000-80,000 players still blind each other with flash-bangs daily. Recently a cohort expressed disdain that they had unlocked everything in another, more modern shooter: he felt it was disappointing, and that there was nothing left "to do". I told him that truthfully he must not enjoy shooters. If a game's design is good, you can be given every part of it immediately and play it for eternity. This doesn't just apply to shooters, either.
You don't have to have 6 pokemon with you at all times. I've taken to having only 1 more pokemon than the next Gym Leader/Rival battle, and not having 6 until the 8th gym/Elite 4/Champion battles, depending on the game.
the grind to up from level 50 to 100 is hard, even with cheats, that is what prevented me from getting the badges because after the 5 level 100 pokemon i got tired of grinding
After watching this it has really made me think about games that I own but haven't beat after starting. After some thought its made me set some to the side too make more room in my schedule for the ones that I really want to play instead of just pushing thru them for the sake of beating them when I honestly just don't care to finish them. Thanks for this video guys.
Thanks. This made me think deeply about whether or not I actually want to get more Platinum trophies. So far, I've only Platinum'd games that I truly enjoyed playing, and in which Platinum-ing wasn't a chore, but I've started trying to Plat Devil May Cry, and it's certainly not an intrinsic endeavor. I'll beat the game, as it is a lot of fun, but I don't think it'll be worth playing about five times on increasingly impossible difficulties, wasting time that I could be using to play/Plat a game that I actually ENJOY. Thanks again, guys.
I was talking about this with my psych prof. She and I were talking about how the the best games use neither extrinsic nor intrinsic motivations, but a combination of both. Take for instance skyrim, not much about the game really feels like a grind. Every action the player takes is in of itself gratifying and inherently, experientialy rewarding. There lay enormous amounts of joy in each moment to moment action of the game.
This question certainly answers the question of why I play certain games a LOT more then others. I enjoy every single moment in a 4X, grand Strategy, or RTS game intrinsically, and know that all of these moments in play, be it finding a fantastic settling location, setting up a critical war against a rival, or seizing a location with vital resources will have a bushel of extrinsic rewards as well, so these are the games I sink hours and hours and HOURS into.
I love when I think of a great example of what you are saying done right and then a couple moments later you talk about the game I was thinking about. Kingdom Hearts that was.
Exploration has always been a big motivator for me in games. The reveal of the unknown, I suppose you may say. It's why I loved fog of war games like Civilization and Heroes of Might and Magic. You needed things and you had to discover them. Sometimes you'd get what you wanted, other times you wouldn't, and then there were those magical times that you found something valuable you didn't expect at all. I've spent time looking at the night sky in Skyrim, a sunrise, or even a waterfall or a jagged snow-capped mountain range, because amid the grind of ALL the dungeon/cave places, the serendipity of a beautiful landscape or skyscape suddenly discovered was a wonderful contrast. But the oddest thing is that I think this also applies to my love of opening up a pack of collectible cards- especially those game related ones. I still have thousands of Magic: the Gathering cards, virtual sports and super hero cards from Facebook and mobile games. The thing I like best is the "discovery" of the card, especially when it may help me do better in the game I'm playing. I have tens of thousands real sports cards, but I stopped collecting those because they lacked that last element. After I opened them, I simply put them away in a box, most, never to be seen again. It was the play associated with the gaming cards that kept me opening packs of those, long after I'd stopped opening sports cards. It's interesting that I now find the pleasure of finding things within games is strongly connected to the same feeling I get when I open up those cards then look forward to playing them within their game. It explains why those two aspects have always been central to my gaming experience. Thanks for helping me come to this conclusion. You now have a new subscriber. Cheers, and DFTBA
This episode is another excellent example of how this show can and should be applied to education and workplace management (though both areas should have already studied this stuff extensively). To expand a little bit to anyone looking through TH-cam comments, three great intrinsic motivators are mastery, autonomy, and purpose. Allow your players to grow, allow your players to do what they want, and give them a reason to do it. Mind you, these are in the area of rewards, not just elements.
i just got into the this show yesterday and oh my god this is an amazing channel i really enjoy and learn something in almost all of the videos. i myself have no aspirations to become a dev or get seriously involved with creating a video game. but just knowing this stuff is very rewarding. and thank you for being so informative on how these principle are applied elsewhere.
You guys are doing a great job with this show. Ive learned quite a lot, well not from just watching the show, but applying all this stuff while I play. Ive recommended this show to pretty much all the kids in my major :P
One good example of this that I can think of is trying to get the items to make life-steal weapons in "All Zombies Must Die!" The items to make the first-tier life-steal weapons start appearing randomly (and somewhat rarely) in searchable objects about half-way through the game. To make a full set of life-steal weapons, you need eight of them since there are eight weapons (not counting "character" weapons like the shock saber or the flamethrower). Since they *stop* appearing once the second-tier life-steal items *start* appearing (and you need to have the first-tier weapon of a given upgrade to make the second-tier weapon), it's necessary to fight your way through the city a *lot* to find all eight of the items you need. However, since that game's gameplay is intrinsically fun, I don't mind having to grind to get them. They also aren't *necessary* to complete the game. In fact, the game doesn't even *tell* you what those items are for except for the fact that they show up in the crafting menu for the upgrade ingredient. So, not only are those items not *obligatory*, but they are also quite fun to work toward getting because of how fun the game is by itself. A good example of intrinsic motivation, I would say! :D
That's good. I think the difference between that gear and MMO gear is that MMO encounters are gated by the quality of your gear while in that game the encounters are not.
Bye Allison thank you for all the work you have done, hope to see you again on show someday :) Hello Scott, thanks for joining the team so they... or rather you all can keep making awesome videos :)
TLDR: Would LOVE to see an episode talking about POSITIVE use of extrinsic value! Conversely, I think some games really thrive on their extrinsic value in some really compelling ways. Of the games I play, I find I get more satisfaction from games when my friends play or have played them as well, allowing us to talk about the game, share stories, thoughts feelings, critical analyses, etc. Single-player games aren't like going to the movies with friends, but maybe they're more like discovering that one of your friends also really likes one of your favorite bands. It's even BETTER when it's something quirky, that you might not have expected them to like. Similarly, some games I only play BECAUSE a friend recommended it to me, or made it obvious from the way they talked about the game that there was something there that they found truly magical. Whether or not that game sounds like my cup of tea, I might give it a try anyway, just to find out something a little more about my friend. This effect is amplified in games that form communities, or have communities formed around them. The social aspects of MMOs are huge, but you can't overlook the vibrant and active fan-bases that are the real drive of many franchises. Final Fantasy, Halo, the Legend of Zelda, to name a few, that manage commercial success even when delivering disappointing entries. Much of that you can't design for, (though certainly Blizzard is WELL aware of their almost TOO brilliant marketing team. I'm almost certain that the designers and marketers work more closely together than in just about any other development company), but one place where some games pull it off is with the kind of non-simultaneous competition that you can achieve with very difficult games. There's something great about being able to brag about killing this or that boss in only one run, or with only X low-level gear? Difficult games can also force you to look elsewhere for answers, and in searching out the wiki page or fan-site you might find a community waiting for you there already, one that reveals parts of the game you hadn't even thought to look for. Founding a new game on that kind of hipster value is a pure gamble, but one might allow you to achieve something really different. I truly believe that this leveraging of extrinsic value, in this case, bragging rights, is ultimately what took Dark Souls from sleeper hit to a full-blown franchise and made games like Super Meat Boy classics in their own time. I'd love to hear anyone else's thoughts on ways they've seen EXTRINSIC value used well. (probably coupled WITH good intrinsic value, but who knows?!)
+Leo Schue Currently playing through it on easy cause I#m shit at shooters. The combat isn't really deep at all once you picked your favorite plasmids. But the story is sooooooo GOOOOOOD
Thorsten Müller Yes, but later on they just deprive you of resources to make it more "survival-y". In addition, the enemies get even more bullet-spongy.
I just realized that when I was playing GTA Online. I loved playing through the missions and coming back for more everytime. Or at least that's what I thought. I was doing the missions and all the quests to get money to buy fancier cars and apartments, but it was getting so tough I didn't have that much time to play, so I decided to buy the game money with real money. After I did that, and achieved what I was looking for, I never put the game on again. I had nothing to do. That's when it hit me I wasn't playing it for the thrill of the play, I was playing it to get seomething else I wanted, and once I got it I simply put the game back on the shelf.
While it's ok that you guys aren't super into turn based combat, it is extremely engaging to other people. It's a large part of the core engagement of table - top games. I prefer turn-based combat to learning patterns and button mashing, myself. The strategy and planning is supposed to be what makes turnbased combat a fundamentally different experience than real-time combat. and by that, I mean for a different type of player -- one who would rather turn to platformers for realtime hand-eye reflex tests, as they're better at it. I have always been excited by big fights in turnbased games, as it's fun to me to plan strategy and catalogue items for the encounter, and then a different level of fun carrying out that encounter. Further, imagining what could be taking place when I give those commands is always way more interesting and engaging thar the swing-hit-move-away scenario that plays out in games with real time combat systems wherein I'm supposed to understand that what is on the screen is all the story there is. I wouldn't have a problem with you guys saying thongs about turnbased combat if you didn't present as if it were cosmic truth that thise systems are less engaging. They're less engaging to you.
+George Winterborn I agree completely. This is a trend that I'm starting to notice as I watch through random Extra Credits videos: they seem to speak of some subjective things in an objective manner. I don't know if that's still happening in their more recent videos, though. I myself, tried playing Kingdom Hearts 2, and I found myself incredibly bored and even frustrated with the combat. There's no real way to mix up your attack combos, aerial attacking leaves you wide open, the reaction commands are a shallow means of attempting to add depth to the combat, the sound effects don't really draw me into the action at all, magic is cumbersome to use and isn't nearly as effective as something that actively consumes any kind of 'point' - magic points, in this case - should be, and nothing in the game really helped me learn when was the optimal time to use the "takes long to recharge so wait for the right time to use it" Drive system (despite making the Drives the most fun part of the combat, leading me to constantly waste them and then not have it built back up when I needed it). And don't get me wrong - I love real-time combat for the most part. Kingdom Hearts' is just incredibly limited and not very fun, in my opinion.
+George Winterborn The problem with many turn-based combats is that many times strategies don't mean a damn. I couldn't go through FFVII's borefest of combat. It was just spamming Attack while occasionally healing and doing overdrives.
It sounds like you probably did a lot of "grinding" before advancing through certain parts of the game. I can see if you make your guys so powerful they can't be touched that it would probably get boring, since all you'd have to do is hit things until they die. However, to get them to that point, it's probably already pretty boring, since running in a circle and killing things is barely playing a game (to me). At the same time, I'd think you could say that of pretty much 100% of games with a leveling system, be it turn based or otherwise. "Grinding and leveling" is a play-style I don't really identify with, so if that's what someone enjoys, I can't really speak to how engaging these systems can actually be. If you play through those types of games with an organic progression, planning and strategy become the entire drive of the mechanic. At least, it always has been for me and my friends, growing up with these games.
+George Winterborn I'm on the fence with that one. I have seen this - and many a times going by the minimum requirement leaves you too strong, imho. It really depends on the game - sometimes they have sidequests which I will try to all complete that may leave you overpowered. I will never just run around grinding for no reason, and assuming that is rude, as it is a simple way of wasting time. Growing stronger in itself can be a lot of fun, though, which is part of what a lot of Hack 'n Slash systems work around - and allow you to plan and determine your strength growth. Whether or not it can be engaging or not, in many games it is not the main design focus. And for many games it really is not the intended personal core engagement - that has little to do with whether it is turnbased combat or not, although it happens more often as JRPGs tend to have a focus on story fairly often. So, often it is meant to be easy to progress as it is not meant to be a gated barrier people have to overcome with skill or grinding to make up for the lack thereof. And I am okay with that! It can leave you feeling disengaged, or dampen the fun, but it can be alright for the game as a whole. Many big turn-based RPGs to me have been absolutely boring or "okayish" in their battles. I would say most, even. With my favorites breaking that and being fun in them, too. And then there are many turn-based games focusing solely on combat - hell, I love first-person dungeon crawlers! And those usually operate with a turn-based combat system and it works perfectly with the resource management, the long-term team planning, engaging boss-fights and trade-offs treading new ground and exploring as far as you can. It still comes down to just fighting, but it can be engaging nonetheless. All that said, I just find saying they always can be engaging - lest you the player be doing something wrong - is unwise, and rude.
If it wasn't for your final line I was gonna call you out, since you once actually said that "Abnegation" is a reason to play and it refers to "playing just to waste time". This was almost the first video I was gonna call you out on, but you totally saved yourselves by offering the other side without even considering the idea that that side needed explaining, which says a lot itself. lol
I'm sad to see Allison go, but I extend a warm and hearty welcome to Scott as the new addition to the team! And of course all the best to everybody at EC for bringing such a wonderfully enlightening and enjoyable show to the world. I've learned a lot from you guys and I'm looking forward to learning so much more :)
Also thanks for not destroying one of my favourite game series of all time :'3 Also playing out Allison to a rock verison of the KH theme was beautiful X3 stahp emotions
The most intrinsic motivation I can think of in games is discovery and surprise - playing just to see what the developers throw out next. I honestly can't think of many recent games that motivated me that way, although two stand out: Rayman Origins and Rayman Legends. Both games are absolutely brimming with inventiveness and creativity. Almost every single level has something new or unique in it, and I kept playing because I wanted to see what else the games had up their disembodied sleeves.
This was a very enlightening video both about video games but also life values. Made me scratch my head going "ahh I've never thought to look at life with this kind of lens." So once again your awesome Extra Credit's.
This is why Final Fantasy XIII is my favorite game in the series. Instead of giving me an overload of options to defeat enemies that barely required thinking, I actively sought out battles because they were fun and challenging. I feel like so many people looked at what button you were pressing a lot more than what goes on in each battle and why you attacked the enemy you did or changed to the paradigm set you did. It has a lot of strategy that people don't realize.
Admittedly, that's one thing I really enjoy about Warframe. The things you want to get are usually stupidly hard and/or difficult to obtain. But... I won't deny that just playing the game, being a spaceninja and whatnot, is hugely rewarding in and of itself.
This is where I think EQ1 shined, even tho I doubt I could go back to some of the playtimes that it required. The loot was more of a bonus/a way to choose where to hunt. But the acts of breaking/holding a camp, overcoming a tough respawn, stopping a train, etc, all felt like accomplishments in themselves.
This episode really explains what makes me like games like Grand Theft Auto. When I'm playing GTA III (runs best on my comp), I enjoy horsing around. When I'm in a high-speed chase, taking potshots at other cars from the driver's seat, that's engaging in and of itself, and it's not for any grinding purpose. It also shows why games like Call of Duty are so successful. It provides instant feedback and it makes you want to play more... and more... and more, just because you LIKE doing it.
Oh my god. I'd completely forgotten about Simple and Clean. Thank you so much for the surprise nostalgia attack at the end of your video. That cover is awesome!
The one RPG whose combat I've found engaging all the time, and not just in boss battles, is Shin Megami Tensei IV. It's really hard (almost any random battle has the actual potential to kill you if you don't finish it in the first turn) and combat focuses on weaknesses and resistances, as hitting enemies with their weaknesses (or getting a critical) gives you more moves in your turn while hitting them with their resistances (or missing) takes away from the moves you can make during a turn. It's very rare in that game that you can just go into battle and mash attack, as I do in most RPGs.
Monster Hunter seems like a good example here. You work towards something you want by killing monsters. Whether it be a scale or pelt or whatever. What saves this from being bad, is the combat. You work towards the items you want, *and* have fun getting to it.
Exactly, in Monster Hunter you have both intrinsic and extrinsic rewards. It is incredibly fun fighting the monsters because of their complex AI, so every battle feels different. And then you have the rewards in the shape of new armors and weapons.
My wife and I were just talking about this earlier today. I really think that a good game has both types of rewards at the same time. Take the Total War series, each turn that you play and each battle you simulate is fun in themselves, but the ultimate goal is conquering certain regions by a certain 'year'. So the 'grinding' is intrinsically exciting for its varied game-play, but the extrinsic goal of conquering Europe or where-ever is there and is necessary to give the battles overall meaning.
I know what he means. In my first playthrough of Persona 4 I was so involved with the story and social stuff that I didn't even notice that the combat was kind of a grind. THAT'S how good it was!
I’ve never understood why people play these old final fantasy games just for the story. Just go watch a playthrough. One of my favorites is Final Fantasy 6, I play it because I enjoy the battles and the story. But so many people who play it complain about the encounter rate, but the battles ARE the game, why are they playing the game if they don’t enjoy playing the game?
I guess that is why the combat in Guild Wars 2 and TERA is so much fun. You are dodging around, landing cool combos, reading the enemies movements. You aren't managing cool downs, you are waiting for opportunities. Your super cool, super damaging combo is useless if you are fighting an enemy that can interrupt you.
This is why I can't put down Monster Hunter 4U. It is just too fun, I like fighting the monsters. It manages to keep each fight with a monster different and interesting. The joy of the game comes from fighting the monsters. Especially when you fight a monster you never fought before. You learn it's tell-tale signs of attack so you can counter and do a counter attack. You get good at fighting that monster and then you wear its skin to show your power.
***** I hope that I can make a story and system together with my siblings that has the same effect on people. That the story, the characters and gameplay is engaging and fun for everyone :3 And giving them rewards for achieving something that is not even specifically asked for, so that these victories feel even more meaningful to them :3 But this is still a long and rocky road to walk :3
I've always found intrinsic and extrinsic to be very closely connected. Extrinsic rewards motivate me to do something, but it's the intrinsic rewards that make that thing fun. For instance, when *I* play a JRPG, I'm also wading through the battles to get story... but at the same time, I still enjoy the battles. The battles are fun, it's just that the reward of more story makes me more motivated to play them. Of course, they can be disconnected. As much as I love Mass Effect, I'll often go through certain parts of a conversation purely for the extrinsic value. Like, if there's an "Investigate" dialogue option, but I've already played that part of the game so many times that I know it like the back of my hand, I just investigate everything... while mashing the "skip dialogue" button until I've done all the necessary investigation. Investigation moments can be interesting, but they can also be something I do just to get XP, or just to make sure that Shepard has specific in-universe knowledge that makes the story flow better.
One of the best examples of this I've ever seen is Fallout 3/New Vegas. Every quest every mission makes me want to play even more to get a broader feel of the story and the world and to learn about their day to day lives.
This is a good basic rule for any kind of deliberate game design and even other media. This mindset also helped me get over my unhealthy addictions to video games, especially casual RPGs. Going through tonnes of grinding to make my character stronger just to reach a part in the story to activate an RNG machine to hopefully get a pretty picture and sprite of a 2D waifu... it was becoming less worth it with each day. Funnily enough, I even find that this problem kind of *kill* the extrinsic value too. Because what do you do when you get your 2D waifu? Play as the waifu in the game. Too bad most of the game is already associated with that slow grind in your mind that even that experience is spoiled for you.
Dungeon Fighter was a big revelation to me. I got to around level 20 and my current mission was "kill fire boss lady 8 times". It was fun the first time, but not the 4th time and I noticed that this was all the game was and dropped it.
+Charlie Moorcroft Click this coal rock, then the next, then that one, then that one, ok they are spawning in a pattern now, back to the first one, click, click, OMG AN EMERALD, oh inventory is full, click ladder, click bank on mini-map, click on bank booth, right click deposit all coal, click emerald, click on mine entrance click on ladder, click on coal rock, click net coal rock, click next one, click empty rock, OH STUPID BOT! QUIT STEALING ALL MY COAL!!!
Honestly, the only time I didn't find Kingdom Hearts (2) as fun was when I was just repeatedly killing nobodies to get the last form in the mansion. Other than that, I would go out of my way for the combat, because it was fun to do by itself, and the rewards we just and added bonus.
Exactly, also grinding was really rewarding after you get to the point where you can fight Sephiroth or the Organization XIII and Terra Armor in Final Mix.
What's the difference between Final Mix other than those two fights and the Roxas one? Other than the fact it's only in Japan? But yeah, Sephiroth doe.
redder876543 Two fights? The Organization count as 13 and they are really hard, though I've only played it in the very hard difficulty mode(since I had finished the game before),and Terra's Armor is the hardest. Ive managed to defeat Sephiroth at level 80, but played over 10 hours to defeat the others after reaching max level. Also, in very hard( I think it's called critical mode) you get half of your HP and 25% less XP, some extra skill boosts and Sora gets a 25% damage boost as the enemies do 2X damage.
I think you mean in order to level up the last form in KH2. Because it appears when you transform after a certain event has pasted. Heck at one point during the game I discovered you can transform into master form without even getting it from Mickey if you were at low HP in a boss fight.
The first thing I thought of after this video is multiplayer shooters. They have elements of both, in a wierd way. If you want an exclusively extrinsic value, you can fight just to win the objective and have the satisfaction of victory. Or, if you want to enjoy it intrinsically, you can just pick fights in a no-mans-land. Each side feeds the other since you usually can't get the objective and ignore someone shooting you, and you can't fight if you've already lost.
I really love this channel. i think this video explains why I put down Borderlands 2; I felt like the only reason I was playing was to bog through frustratingly boring missions for rewards that didn't even stay useful for a few hours after I got them.
This is one of the reasons I keep going back to the MMORPG Wakfu. Like other MMOs, it's quite a grindfest and the online community constantly questions the developers' content decisions, but since it has a turn-based tactical strategy combat system, I find the game enjoyable to play. There are some dry spells in the grind, such as when there's only one or two good experience-giving dungeons for 10 or 15 levels, but in general combat is much more than a mindless clickfest--even when in only a small group. Putting things on a turn-based system allowed them to require a lot of depth of thought out of each player.
Huh. Interesting. I actually *stopped* playing Dofus after watching this video. I really like the world, the places to explore, the clever different enemies and the turn by turn combat, don't get me wrong. However, I realised that it made more sense to use my rogue's gun than his bombs, that it made more sense to grind against stupid enemies than clever ones (as much XP but much faster), you need to grind in order to survive new zones, that it's impossible to solo a dungeon (and all the obstacles make it very hard to be of use in a group), the quests are rarely worthwhile and money is so important. Gear really changes the game and you can't get the money for it without paying up or grinding. Maybe I wasn't playing right (solo, casual, trying to turn it into a strategy and exploration game) because it has a huge potential for fun combat.
Loic Delorme I personally never played Dofus, but from what I hear, Wakfu is an improvement in many ways. I wouldn't know the specifics though... everything you mentioned could also be said about Wakfu, but that hasn't been my personal experience. Different people have different tolerances, after all. I do still find it super grindy, but maybe I enjoy the turn-based tactical battle style so much that I don't mind grinding as long as I pace myself such that I don't get burned out (which, again, is easy to do with a couple notable gaps in content in the higher levels, so that's not perfect) ...admittedly, I also 6-box, so I'm playing with a full team of myself :P That distances me from a lot of the play dynamics that groups bring to the table, good and bad. So my perspective could be very, very skewed, but I think that only alters my perception of the particular execution of the game; I think the driving principles behind it are still solid despite debatable quality of the end product. But in general, I think my biggest message is to not judge Wakfu based on Dofus. I've heard enough Dofus veterans both praise and complain about various changes to conclude that the games are markedly different in execution despite essentially being the same core system.
This explains exactly why I didn't get into WOW. I never thought about it in an intrinsic vs extrinsic manner though. I was playing the trial for it. When it came to the end of the trial, I knew I was hooked on it (extrinsic rewards) but because of the monthly subscription that I would have to pay, I asked myself, am I actually enjoying myself. Then answer was no.
Sorry if you're getting spammed with responses, but Retcon is shorthand for "Retroactive Continuity", which is a proper noun denoting a process by which one modifies the background or history of a story. When used as a verb, as in, "to retcon", it means to override previously established in-world history of a fictional story with new information to outright replace it. I'll continue this in the next post:
The most recent game that's had the most intrinsic value for me is Fire Emblem: Awakening. I love the cutscenes by themselves. I love the character interactions by themselves. And each battle is fun in and of itself, whether I'm playing a level for the first time and getting story with it or if I'm playing the same level later on just to grind my lower-level characters. Each part of the game is so much fun in and of themselves for totally different reasons. It's a fantastic feeling.
THANK YOU for pointing out that the KH storyline can go stupidly insane to the point where I'm pretty sure both Ansem and Sora have schizophrenia. That being said I still love the series.
hikari is the japanese version ( original ) of this song, simple and clean is the english version with some changes. The version in this video is a Rock cover by Rising sun of the original version thus Hikari. Hope i didn't miss anything. =)
the thing i love about the Shin megami tensi(at least the more recent ones) series is how it rewards you for hitting enemy weaknesses, instead of just doing extra damage, they add something that is exclusive to critting and hitting weaknesses.
Aw, Allison left?! I have so many memories of her presence in the sketches. Will miss loads. Although, this new guy... *knocking* "Mr DeWitt!" *louder knocking* "MISTER DEWITT!!!" *obnoxiously loud knocking* "WE HAD A DEAL, DEWITT!"
You know what's an intrinsically fun game? *SPECTROBES ORIGINS.* The battle mechanics are hella fun! ...Y'know what, so is dungeon crawling in the Pokémon Mystery Dungeon games.
I actually have the opposite opinion of the PMD games. I think the dungeon crawling is boring. I liked the idea of the story, but stopped playing the games because I had to go through so much of the dungeon crawling I liked just to get small pieces of the story I actually wanted. But that's why everyone has differently likes and wants.
ZygonCannar Did you play any of the regular pokemon games? You would have to play those first in order to experience the full impact of playing a spinoff.
***** Uhh. Did you even read the comment? I said the dungeon crawling was boring. Yes I played the previous games. That didn't make the boring, randomly generated meh dungeons any more exciting for me. That has nothing to do with whether or not I liked the genre.
Forrest Weldon Well you should make the comment more clearer then. I assumed you were still talking about PMD especially when you brought up the story. Also there are many more forms of dungeon crawling.
I'm personally fond of TWEWY, because of it's "Challenge through Mechanics." It uses both screens, and two types of controls at the same time. One character is controlled with buttons, while another uses the touch scree, and unless you have four arms, good luck using both at the same time. Challenge through mechanics is at it's best, as many of the enemies attack both characters at the same time while you can only attack with one.
I have to say, after 2.5 years of playing League of Legends, I get nothing but intrinsic rewards from playing it, since I've surpassed the grind and now find joy in each individual game, regardless of outcome. In the beginning, I was just playing to win and unlock that champion that looked sort of fun, but now that I've been playing for so long and unlocked most of the enjoyable content, there is no more feeling of "Oh I need to save up mah IP cause that Ahri looks so dope." I can now focus solely on the gameplay, which is what I pull my entertainment out of.
I experienced both in comparison in Skyrim. Most of the dungeons I only played to move on, but there were those I explored because I liked that specific dungeon.
3:28 I just got a shameful feeling... the sad fact when you fully realize you've trudged through a game you would've already stopped playing just for some trophies.
+Krondelo Do you know what you really want, and if it's worth it now?
+KidAnime20 Ha! I suppose I have a much better idea, yeah.
Krondelo
Skinner box strikes again
... *Deletes half of steam library.*
+Vector Lightning yup
May I have the half that you deleted? /:-)
now you enjoy games more
"We don't play to kill hours in our day." *laughs in quarantine*
I used to play games to kill hours before the quarantine, during I started playing some that had some content worth thinking about. BioShock, Spec Ops the Line, certain walking sims, Journey, that sort of thing. My brain almost melted from doing the same boring routine over and over all day
There is a quote I once saw, I cant remember who said it but I can remember what it basically said.
"Living is the act of finding new beauty, everything else is a form of waiting."
I think this applies to games and think that game designers should think more about that then pushing the graphics and frames per second.
How true; this assembly-line style of AAA games is an issue. Games should be seen as an form of art and entertainment, not just a carte blanche to print money. That’s why I’m more interested in lower-key and indie developers than most of the standard AAA stuff, although I do still enjoy my Mario games; there’s a genuine passion missing in a lot of AAA titles. That, and I’m not interested in many of the classic AAA genres, especially FPS, and my restriction to the DS line, Wii and iOS means I can’t play most of those titles even if I wanted.
This is why I LOVE NINTENDO games. They are almost purely intrinsic fun! You don't play Mario, Smash, or Mario Kart for any extrinsic value, it's just fun playing it!
I LOVE EXTRA CREDITS I'M SO HAPPY I FOUND IT!
***** I was doing some personal research on the uncanny valley and found their video on it. I forgot about it for a little bit, but I returned it when I remembered how awesome it was. I watched the video again and looked at more stuffy by Extra Credits. I've been hooked ever since.
PROJECT Martin I got here after hearing game theory was inspired by extra credits
I got here because another channel recommended extra history
The Katamari series. So much fun to play, even without any groundbreaking story moments or super-developed characters.
When you talk about intrinsic rewards it reminds me of achievement hunting. Some achievements are so meta and require you to be so dedicated, that they require hundreds of hours of playing and grinding. For example, I've been non-stop grinding for 6 months just to acquire the Master Pioneer achievement in Lost Planet: Extreme Condition, one of the hardest achievements yet. It's astonishing how such small meta in games can push us so far. I know you guys have already done an episode on achievements, but there's so much that you missed. It'd be interesting to see a few episodes dedicated to achievement hunters themselves, but one can only dream.
Speakingof intrinsic battling, the Mario and Luigi RPGs have battles that have both intrinsic AND extrinsic rewards!
+Noah Goldberg I definitely agree. That series' combat is brilliantly designed. Real-time interaction in a turn-based RPG was a really smart design choice.
They are incredible games! But I hope that they won't go down the road of paper Mario...
they nearly did, but alpha dream fought to keep the formula
The realization that the ending theme is a remixed Simple and Clean from KH...
It fills you with Determination
Portal is a perfect example. The puzzles are fun and engaging, and when you complete them you are rewarded with more of the amusing(if also horrifying) monolog from GLaDOS.
Arkham Knight's Riddler trophies. Don't get me wrong, collecting them is fun, and doing some of the puzzles are neat, and the final boss fight at the end is awesome, but there are just too many of the bloody things. Not to mention, some of the puzzles are downright terrible, where you're expected to know information you aren't given. The novelty dies off pretty quickly when the only thing stopping you from an awesome boss fight and the game's true ending is 243 riddler trophies and 50 or so riddles that you can only get most of with a walkthrough, plus the riddles all relying on information from outside the game, like the comics, only excludes the people playing it for the game itself and not for Batman.
I returned the game because half way through a riddle bugged out and I knew that the true ending could only be achieved if you collect them all. If I kept it any longer the return time would expire and I wasn't willing to go through all that again if another trophy had a chance of breaking.
+DiscoClam This is part of why Batman: Arkham Asylum and City are so good... the Riddler part in both games are not only intrinsic, but they are optional (at least on the extrinsic side of it).
i liked the arkhan city ones, every puzzle could be completed without a walkthrough, at least i could, what really anoyed me whas that the only way to play without the counter help was beating the game once, why dont make the hard game acessible from the start ? because playing the same story in the second play becomes an extrinsical element
Very solid piece. 10/10 on this one. Interesting in regard to the industry trends in competitive gaming. Shooting a man in Counter-Strike is intrinsically rewarding. The little rush of winning a gun-battle where bullets are sending CS Office objects flying and both parties are just bullet-hosing the trigger in an unabashed PANIC (one bullet kills) is entertaining without motivation.
That's why 60,000-80,000 players still blind each other with flash-bangs daily. Recently a cohort expressed disdain that they had unlocked everything in another, more modern shooter: he felt it was disappointing, and that there was nothing left "to do".
I told him that truthfully he must not enjoy shooters. If a game's design is good, you can be given every part of it immediately and play it for eternity. This doesn't just apply to shooters, either.
So THAT'S why she's gone! I've been wondering for weeks! I feel bad now. :'(
Might be late, but you are missed, Allision Theus.
this one has a lot more dan sprites than the others. I like that
I always got an Intrinsic feel with the Pokemon series. I always felt satisfaction when I caught a new pokemon or got a new gym badge.
not when you have to grind battle, wild pokemon to level up your own pokemon so you can defeat the elite four
You don't have to have 6 pokemon with you at all times. I've taken to having only 1 more pokemon than the next Gym Leader/Rival battle, and not having 6 until the 8th gym/Elite 4/Champion battles, depending on the game.
the grind to up from level 50 to 100 is hard, even with cheats, that is what prevented me from getting the badges because after the 5 level 100 pokemon i got tired of grinding
The outro almost sounds like a tribute to Allison.
How so?
+
"We don't play just to kill hours in our day"
Well.
Makes even more sense in 2020
@@melissaharway4547 Oh god that was 7 years ago and I'm still like this!
WONDERFUL outro music, BTW. I'm on a mad binge of CarboHydroM's archives now.
After watching this it has really made me think about games that I own but haven't beat after starting. After some thought its made me set some to the side too make more room in my schedule for the ones that I really want to play instead of just pushing thru them for the sake of beating them when I honestly just don't care to finish them. Thanks for this video guys.
Thanks. This made me think deeply about whether or not I actually want to get more Platinum trophies. So far, I've only Platinum'd games that I truly enjoyed playing, and in which Platinum-ing wasn't a chore, but I've started trying to Plat Devil May Cry, and it's certainly not an intrinsic endeavor. I'll beat the game, as it is a lot of fun, but I don't think it'll be worth playing about five times on increasingly impossible difficulties, wasting time that I could be using to play/Plat a game that I actually ENJOY.
Thanks again, guys.
I was talking about this with my psych prof. She and I were talking about how the the best games use neither extrinsic nor intrinsic motivations, but a combination of both. Take for instance skyrim, not much about the game really feels like a grind. Every action the player takes is in of itself gratifying and inherently, experientialy rewarding. There lay enormous amounts of joy in each moment to moment action of the game.
This question certainly answers the question of why I play certain games a LOT more then others.
I enjoy every single moment in a 4X, grand Strategy, or RTS game intrinsically, and know that all of these moments in play, be it finding a fantastic settling location, setting up a critical war against a rival, or seizing a location with vital resources will have a bushel of extrinsic rewards as well, so these are the games I sink hours and hours and HOURS into.
I love when I think of a great example of what you are saying done right and then a couple moments later you talk about the game I was thinking about. Kingdom Hearts that was.
Exploration has always been a big motivator for me in games. The reveal of the unknown, I suppose you may say. It's why I loved fog of war games like Civilization and Heroes of Might and Magic. You needed things and you had to discover them. Sometimes you'd get what you wanted, other times you wouldn't, and then there were those magical times that you found something valuable you didn't expect at all.
I've spent time looking at the night sky in Skyrim, a sunrise, or even a waterfall or a jagged snow-capped mountain range, because amid the grind of ALL the dungeon/cave places, the serendipity of a beautiful landscape or skyscape suddenly discovered was a wonderful contrast.
But the oddest thing is that I think this also applies to my love of opening up a pack of collectible cards- especially those game related ones. I still have thousands of Magic: the Gathering cards, virtual sports and super hero cards from Facebook and mobile games. The thing I like best is the "discovery" of the card, especially when it may help me do better in the game I'm playing.
I have tens of thousands real sports cards, but I stopped collecting those because they lacked that last element. After I opened them, I simply put them away in a box, most, never to be seen again. It was the play associated with the gaming cards that kept me opening packs of those, long after I'd stopped opening sports cards.
It's interesting that I now find the pleasure of finding things within games is strongly connected to the same feeling I get when I open up those cards then look forward to playing them within their game. It explains why those two aspects have always been central to my gaming experience.
Thanks for helping me come to this conclusion. You now have a new subscriber.
Cheers, and DFTBA
This episode is another excellent example of how this show can and should be applied to education and workplace management (though both areas should have already studied this stuff extensively).
To expand a little bit to anyone looking through TH-cam comments, three great intrinsic motivators are mastery, autonomy, and purpose. Allow your players to grow, allow your players to do what they want, and give them a reason to do it. Mind you, these are in the area of rewards, not just elements.
i just got into the this show yesterday and oh my god this is an amazing channel i really enjoy and learn something in almost all of the videos. i myself have no aspirations to become a dev or get seriously involved with creating a video game. but just knowing this stuff is very rewarding. and thank you for being so informative on how these principle are applied elsewhere.
You guys are doing a great job with this show. Ive learned quite a lot, well not from just watching the show, but applying all this stuff while I play. Ive recommended this show to pretty much all the kids in my major :P
One good example of this that I can think of is trying to get the items to make life-steal weapons in "All Zombies Must Die!"
The items to make the first-tier life-steal weapons start appearing randomly (and somewhat rarely) in searchable objects about half-way through the game. To make a full set of life-steal weapons, you need eight of them since there are eight weapons (not counting "character" weapons like the shock saber or the flamethrower). Since they *stop* appearing once the second-tier life-steal items *start* appearing (and you need to have the first-tier weapon of a given upgrade to make the second-tier weapon), it's necessary to fight your way through the city a *lot* to find all eight of the items you need.
However, since that game's gameplay is intrinsically fun, I don't mind having to grind to get them. They also aren't *necessary* to complete the game. In fact, the game doesn't even *tell* you what those items are for except for the fact that they show up in the crafting menu for the upgrade ingredient.
So, not only are those items not *obligatory*, but they are also quite fun to work toward getting because of how fun the game is by itself. A good example of intrinsic motivation, I would say! :D
That's good. I think the difference between that gear and MMO gear is that MMO encounters are gated by the quality of your gear while in that game the encounters are not.
Bye Allison thank you for all the work you have done, hope to see you again on show someday :)
Hello Scott, thanks for joining the team so they... or rather you all can keep making awesome videos :)
TLDR: Would LOVE to see an episode talking about POSITIVE use of extrinsic value!
Conversely, I think some games really thrive on their extrinsic value in some really compelling ways.
Of the games I play, I find I get more satisfaction from games when my friends play or have played them as well, allowing us to talk about the game, share stories, thoughts feelings, critical analyses, etc. Single-player games aren't like going to the movies with friends, but maybe they're more like discovering that one of your friends also really likes one of your favorite bands. It's even BETTER when it's something quirky, that you might not have expected them to like.
Similarly, some games I only play BECAUSE a friend recommended it to me, or made it obvious from the way they talked about the game that there was something there that they found truly magical. Whether or not that game sounds like my cup of tea, I might give it a try anyway, just to find out something a little more about my friend.
This effect is amplified in games that form communities, or have communities formed around them. The social aspects of MMOs are huge, but you can't overlook the vibrant and active fan-bases that are the real drive of many franchises. Final Fantasy, Halo, the Legend of Zelda, to name a few, that manage commercial success even when delivering disappointing entries.
Much of that you can't design for, (though certainly Blizzard is WELL aware of their almost TOO brilliant marketing team. I'm almost certain that the designers and marketers work more closely together than in just about any other development company), but one place where some games pull it off is with the kind of non-simultaneous competition that you can achieve with very difficult games. There's something great about being able to brag about killing this or that boss in only one run, or with only X low-level gear? Difficult games can also force you to look elsewhere for answers, and in searching out the wiki page or fan-site you might find a community waiting for you there already, one that reveals parts of the game you hadn't even thought to look for.
Founding a new game on that kind of hipster value is a pure gamble, but one might allow you to achieve something really different. I truly believe that this leveraging of extrinsic value, in this case, bragging rights, is ultimately what took Dark Souls from sleeper hit to a full-blown franchise and made games like Super Meat Boy classics in their own time.
I'd love to hear anyone else's thoughts on ways they've seen EXTRINSIC value used well. (probably coupled WITH good intrinsic value, but who knows?!)
Allison, we will miss you. Your art was one of the charming pillars of this show.
Hey, thanks Allison. Hope you get through what you need to and get to come back again some time.
BioShock's combat just became a bullet-spongy chore...I just wanted to get all of that story...
+Leo Schue Currently playing through it on easy cause I#m shit at shooters. The combat isn't really deep at all once you picked your favorite plasmids. But the story is sooooooo GOOOOOOD
Thorsten Müller Yes, but later on they just deprive you of resources to make it more "survival-y". In addition, the enemies get even more bullet-spongy.
Thank you for posting this, fourm arguments were all about this topic just now and im glad you were here to exsplane everything.
I just realized that when I was playing GTA Online. I loved playing through the missions and coming back for more everytime. Or at least that's what I thought. I was doing the missions and all the quests to get money to buy fancier cars and apartments, but it was getting so tough I didn't have that much time to play, so I decided to buy the game money with real money. After I did that, and achieved what I was looking for, I never put the game on again. I had nothing to do. That's when it hit me I wasn't playing it for the thrill of the play, I was playing it to get seomething else I wanted, and once I got it I simply put the game back on the shelf.
the dangers of pay to win,once you pay you win, imagine you buy mario game, them turn the game on and it says "you won congratulations"
While it's ok that you guys aren't super into turn based combat, it is extremely engaging to other people. It's a large part of the core engagement of table - top games. I prefer turn-based combat to learning patterns and button mashing, myself.
The strategy and planning is supposed to be what makes turnbased combat a fundamentally different experience than real-time combat. and by that, I mean for a different type of player -- one who would rather turn to platformers for realtime hand-eye reflex tests, as they're better at it.
I have always been excited by big fights in turnbased games, as it's fun to me to plan strategy and catalogue items for the encounter, and then a different level of fun carrying out that encounter. Further, imagining what could be taking place when I give those commands is always way more interesting and engaging thar the swing-hit-move-away scenario that plays out in games with real time combat systems wherein I'm supposed to understand that what is on the screen is all the story there is.
I wouldn't have a problem with you guys saying thongs about turnbased combat if you didn't present as if it were cosmic truth that thise systems are less engaging.
They're less engaging to you.
+George Winterborn I agree completely. This is a trend that I'm starting to notice as I watch through random Extra Credits videos: they seem to speak of some subjective things in an objective manner. I don't know if that's still happening in their more recent videos, though.
I myself, tried playing Kingdom Hearts 2, and I found myself incredibly bored and even frustrated with the combat. There's no real way to mix up your attack combos, aerial attacking leaves you wide open, the reaction commands are a shallow means of attempting to add depth to the combat, the sound effects don't really draw me into the action at all, magic is cumbersome to use and isn't nearly as effective as something that actively consumes any kind of 'point' - magic points, in this case - should be, and nothing in the game really helped me learn when was the optimal time to use the "takes long to recharge so wait for the right time to use it" Drive system (despite making the Drives the most fun part of the combat, leading me to constantly waste them and then not have it built back up when I needed it). And don't get me wrong - I love real-time combat for the most part. Kingdom Hearts' is just incredibly limited and not very fun, in my opinion.
+George Winterborn Have you played The Banner Saga? Something tells me you would love it.
+George Winterborn The problem with many turn-based combats is that many times strategies don't mean a damn. I couldn't go through FFVII's borefest of combat. It was just spamming Attack while occasionally healing and doing overdrives.
It sounds like you probably did a lot of "grinding" before advancing through certain parts of the game. I can see if you make your guys so powerful they can't be touched that it would probably get boring, since all you'd have to do is hit things until they die. However, to get them to that point, it's probably already pretty boring, since running in a circle and killing things is barely playing a game (to me).
At the same time, I'd think you could say that of pretty much 100% of games with a leveling system, be it turn based or otherwise. "Grinding and leveling" is a play-style I don't really identify with, so if that's what someone enjoys, I can't really speak to how engaging these systems can actually be.
If you play through those types of games with an organic progression, planning and strategy become the entire drive of the mechanic. At least, it always has been for me and my friends, growing up with these games.
+George Winterborn I'm on the fence with that one. I have seen this - and many a times going by the minimum requirement leaves you too strong, imho. It really depends on the game - sometimes they have sidequests which I will try to all complete that may leave you overpowered.
I will never just run around grinding for no reason, and assuming that is rude, as it is a simple way of wasting time.
Growing stronger in itself can be a lot of fun, though, which is part of what a lot of Hack 'n Slash systems work around - and allow you to plan and determine your strength growth.
Whether or not it can be engaging or not, in many games it is not the main design focus. And for many games it really is not the intended personal core engagement - that has little to do with whether it is turnbased combat or not, although it happens more often as JRPGs tend to have a focus on story fairly often.
So, often it is meant to be easy to progress as it is not meant to be a gated barrier people have to overcome with skill or grinding to make up for the lack thereof. And I am okay with that! It can leave you feeling disengaged, or dampen the fun, but it can be alright for the game as a whole. Many big turn-based RPGs to me have been absolutely boring or "okayish" in their battles. I would say most, even. With my favorites breaking that and being fun in them, too.
And then there are many turn-based games focusing solely on combat - hell, I love first-person dungeon crawlers! And those usually operate with a turn-based combat system and it works perfectly with the resource management, the long-term team planning, engaging boss-fights and trade-offs treading new ground and exploring as far as you can.
It still comes down to just fighting, but it can be engaging nonetheless.
All that said, I just find saying they always can be engaging - lest you the player be doing something wrong - is unwise, and rude.
If it wasn't for your final line I was gonna call you out, since you once actually said that "Abnegation" is a reason to play and it refers to "playing just to waste time".
This was almost the first video I was gonna call you out on, but you totally saved yourselves by offering the other side without even considering the idea that that side needed explaining, which says a lot itself. lol
I'm sad to see Allison go, but I extend a warm and hearty welcome to Scott as the new addition to the team! And of course all the best to everybody at EC for bringing such a wonderfully enlightening and enjoyable show to the world. I've learned a lot from you guys and I'm looking forward to learning so much more :)
Also thanks for not destroying one of my favourite game series of all time :'3 Also playing out Allison to a rock verison of the KH theme was beautiful X3 stahp emotions
The most intrinsic motivation I can think of in games is discovery and surprise - playing just to see what the developers throw out next. I honestly can't think of many recent games that motivated me that way, although two stand out: Rayman Origins and Rayman Legends.
Both games are absolutely brimming with inventiveness and creativity. Almost every single level has something new or unique in it, and I kept playing because I wanted to see what else the games had up their disembodied sleeves.
This was a very enlightening video both about video games but also life values. Made me scratch my head going "ahh I've never thought to look at life with this kind of lens." So once again your awesome Extra Credit's.
This is why Final Fantasy XIII is my favorite game in the series. Instead of giving me an overload of options to defeat enemies that barely required thinking, I actively sought out battles because they were fun and challenging. I feel like so many people looked at what button you were pressing a lot more than what goes on in each battle and why you attacked the enemy you did or changed to the paradigm set you did. It has a lot of strategy that people don't realize.
Admittedly, that's one thing I really enjoy about Warframe. The things you want to get are usually stupidly hard and/or difficult to obtain. But... I won't deny that just playing the game, being a spaceninja and whatnot, is hugely rewarding in and of itself.
Great as always!
Really lets you rethink games entirely, one of my favorite episodes.
This is where I think EQ1 shined, even tho I doubt I could go back to some of the playtimes that it required. The loot was more of a bonus/a way to choose where to hunt. But the acts of breaking/holding a camp, overcoming a tough respawn, stopping a train, etc, all felt like accomplishments in themselves.
This episode really explains what makes me like games like Grand Theft Auto. When I'm playing GTA III (runs best on my comp), I enjoy horsing around. When I'm in a high-speed chase, taking potshots at other cars from the driver's seat, that's engaging in and of itself, and it's not for any grinding purpose.
It also shows why games like Call of Duty are so successful. It provides instant feedback and it makes you want to play more... and more... and more, just because you LIKE doing it.
Oh my god. I'd completely forgotten about Simple and Clean. Thank you so much for the surprise nostalgia attack at the end of your video. That cover is awesome!
I feel like Thomas Was Alone was a game that was pretty intrinsically engaging throughout the whole experience.
The one RPG whose combat I've found engaging all the time, and not just in boss battles, is Shin Megami Tensei IV. It's really hard (almost any random battle has the actual potential to kill you if you don't finish it in the first turn) and combat focuses on weaknesses and resistances, as hitting enemies with their weaknesses (or getting a critical) gives you more moves in your turn while hitting them with their resistances (or missing) takes away from the moves you can make during a turn. It's very rare in that game that you can just go into battle and mash attack, as I do in most RPGs.
Monster Hunter seems like a good example here. You work towards something you want by killing monsters. Whether it be a scale or pelt or whatever. What saves this from being bad, is the combat. You work towards the items you want, *and* have fun getting to it.
Exactly, in Monster Hunter you have both intrinsic and extrinsic rewards. It is incredibly fun fighting the monsters because of their complex AI, so every battle feels different. And then you have the rewards in the shape of new armors and weapons.
It's possible to have fun playing that shit?
keffypoo
Yes. It is also possible to see when people +1 their own comments, like yourself.
Eathams
It's also possible to see when people have no argument, like yourself.
keffypoo
It's an opinion, not an argument. If you don't find Monster Hunter fun, that's okay with me.
My wife and I were just talking about this earlier today. I really think that a good game has both types of rewards at the same time. Take the Total War series, each turn that you play and each battle you simulate is fun in themselves, but the ultimate goal is conquering certain regions by a certain 'year'. So the 'grinding' is intrinsically exciting for its varied game-play, but the extrinsic goal of conquering Europe or where-ever is there and is necessary to give the battles overall meaning.
As soon as that ending song came on I started headbanging so vigorously you can't even.
Talk about kingdom hearts and use the most famous song from it as you close-out, you clever son of a guns.
minit9999 ahhhhhhh the childhood nostalgia is hitting me so hard right now *feels cheeks*
I know what he means. In my first playthrough of Persona 4 I was so involved with the story and social stuff that I didn't even notice that the combat was kind of a grind. THAT'S how good it was!
I’ve never understood why people play these old final fantasy games just for the story. Just go watch a playthrough. One of my favorites is Final Fantasy 6, I play it because I enjoy the battles and the story. But so many people who play it complain about the encounter rate, but the battles ARE the game, why are they playing the game if they don’t enjoy playing the game?
I was actually able to turn this on its head and apply it to basic literature. Specifically my writing. Thank you for that.
I guess that is why the combat in Guild Wars 2 and TERA is so much fun. You are dodging around, landing cool combos, reading the enemies movements. You aren't managing cool downs, you are waiting for opportunities. Your super cool, super damaging combo is useless if you are fighting an enemy that can interrupt you.
This is why I can't put down Monster Hunter 4U. It is just too fun, I like fighting the monsters. It manages to keep each fight with a monster different and interesting. The joy of the game comes from fighting the monsters. Especially when you fight a monster you never fought before. You learn it's tell-tale signs of attack so you can counter and do a counter attack. You get good at fighting that monster and then you wear its skin to show your power.
say it like it is man. ProJared would be proud. :)
Roan Eve
ProJared would indeed be proud, I mean come on. I'm at least better than PBG, I think.... not sure how good he is now.
*****
I hope that I can make a story and system together with my siblings that has the same effect on people. That the story, the characters and gameplay is engaging and fun for everyone :3 And giving them rewards for achieving something that is not even specifically asked for, so that these victories feel even more meaningful to them :3
But this is still a long and rocky road to walk :3
I've always found intrinsic and extrinsic to be very closely connected. Extrinsic rewards motivate me to do something, but it's the intrinsic rewards that make that thing fun. For instance, when *I* play a JRPG, I'm also wading through the battles to get story... but at the same time, I still enjoy the battles. The battles are fun, it's just that the reward of more story makes me more motivated to play them.
Of course, they can be disconnected. As much as I love Mass Effect, I'll often go through certain parts of a conversation purely for the extrinsic value. Like, if there's an "Investigate" dialogue option, but I've already played that part of the game so many times that I know it like the back of my hand, I just investigate everything... while mashing the "skip dialogue" button until I've done all the necessary investigation. Investigation moments can be interesting, but they can also be something I do just to get XP, or just to make sure that Shepard has specific in-universe knowledge that makes the story flow better.
2:45 Meaningful choice in Mass Effect? HA!
One of the best examples of this I've ever seen is Fallout 3/New Vegas. Every quest every mission makes me want to play even more to get a broader feel of the story and the world and to learn about their day to day lives.
This is a good basic rule for any kind of deliberate game design and even other media.
This mindset also helped me get over my unhealthy addictions to video games, especially casual RPGs. Going through tonnes of grinding to make my character stronger just to reach a part in the story to activate an RNG machine to hopefully get a pretty picture and sprite of a 2D waifu... it was becoming less worth it with each day.
Funnily enough, I even find that this problem kind of *kill* the extrinsic value too. Because what do you do when you get your 2D waifu? Play as the waifu in the game. Too bad most of the game is already associated with that slow grind in your mind that even that experience is spoiled for you.
This kind of an awesome metaphor for live: If you don't like your everyday actions you have to consider if what you do them for is worth it.
i know it's three years late but: HEY SCOTT
King Killa
about 4 now
HEY SCOTT
Even more late
HEY SCOTT!
Hey emperor scratch!
Dungeon Fighter was a big revelation to me. I got to around level 20 and my current mission was "kill fire boss lady 8 times". It was fun the first time, but not the 4th time and I noticed that this was all the game was and dropped it.
Fuck me iam watching this video will playing runescape. The biggest grind game ever...
Haven't seen a runescape comment in years...
+Charlie Moorcroft Click this coal rock, then the next, then that one, then that one, ok they are spawning in a pattern now, back to the first one, click, click, OMG AN EMERALD, oh inventory is full, click ladder, click bank on mini-map, click on bank booth, right click deposit all coal, click emerald, click on mine entrance click on ladder, click on coal rock, click net coal rock, click next one, click empty rock, OH STUPID BOT! QUIT STEALING ALL MY COAL!!!
your definitely not the only one I always enjoyed the combat in FF.
Honestly, the only time I didn't find Kingdom Hearts (2) as fun was when I was just repeatedly killing nobodies to get the last form in the mansion. Other than that, I would go out of my way for the combat, because it was fun to do by itself, and the rewards we just and added bonus.
Exactly, also grinding was really rewarding after you get to the point where you can fight Sephiroth or the Organization XIII and Terra Armor in Final Mix.
What's the difference between Final Mix other than those two fights and the Roxas one? Other than the fact it's only in Japan?
But yeah, Sephiroth doe.
redder876543 Two fights? The Organization count as 13 and they are really hard, though I've only played it in the very hard difficulty mode(since I had finished the game before),and Terra's Armor is the hardest.
Ive managed to defeat Sephiroth at level 80, but played over 10 hours to defeat the others after reaching max level.
Also, in very hard( I think it's called critical mode) you get half of your HP and 25% less XP, some extra skill boosts and Sora gets a 25% damage boost as the enemies do 2X damage.
I think you mean in order to level up the last form in KH2. Because it appears when you transform after a certain event has pasted.
Heck at one point during the game I discovered you can transform into master form without even getting it from Mickey if you were at low HP in a boss fight.
*****
Really? I never did that.
I wish Anti Form were an actual form, when you're not in a pinch, it's really fun to use.
The first thing I thought of after this video is multiplayer shooters. They have elements of both, in a wierd way. If you want an exclusively extrinsic value, you can fight just to win the objective and have the satisfaction of victory. Or, if you want to enjoy it intrinsically, you can just pick fights in a no-mans-land. Each side feeds the other since you usually can't get the objective and ignore someone shooting you, and you can't fight if you've already lost.
I really love this channel. i think this video explains why I put down Borderlands 2; I felt like the only reason I was playing was to bog through frustratingly boring missions for rewards that didn't even stay useful for a few hours after I got them.
This is one of the reasons I keep going back to the MMORPG Wakfu. Like other MMOs, it's quite a grindfest and the online community constantly questions the developers' content decisions, but since it has a turn-based tactical strategy combat system, I find the game enjoyable to play. There are some dry spells in the grind, such as when there's only one or two good experience-giving dungeons for 10 or 15 levels, but in general combat is much more than a mindless clickfest--even when in only a small group. Putting things on a turn-based system allowed them to require a lot of depth of thought out of each player.
Huh. Interesting.
I actually *stopped* playing Dofus after watching this video. I really like the world, the places to explore, the clever different enemies and the turn by turn combat, don't get me wrong. However, I realised that it made more sense to use my rogue's gun than his bombs, that it made more sense to grind against stupid enemies than clever ones (as much XP but much faster), you need to grind in order to survive new zones, that it's impossible to solo a dungeon (and all the obstacles make it very hard to be of use in a group), the quests are rarely worthwhile and money is so important.
Gear really changes the game and you can't get the money for it without paying up or grinding.
Maybe I wasn't playing right (solo, casual, trying to turn it into a strategy and exploration game) because it has a huge potential for fun combat.
Loic Delorme
I personally never played Dofus, but from what I hear, Wakfu is an improvement in many ways. I wouldn't know the specifics though... everything you mentioned could also be said about Wakfu, but that hasn't been my personal experience. Different people have different tolerances, after all. I do still find it super grindy, but maybe I enjoy the turn-based tactical battle style so much that I don't mind grinding as long as I pace myself such that I don't get burned out (which, again, is easy to do with a couple notable gaps in content in the higher levels, so that's not perfect)
...admittedly, I also 6-box, so I'm playing with a full team of myself :P That distances me from a lot of the play dynamics that groups bring to the table, good and bad. So my perspective could be very, very skewed, but I think that only alters my perception of the particular execution of the game; I think the driving principles behind it are still solid despite debatable quality of the end product.
But in general, I think my biggest message is to not judge Wakfu based on Dofus. I've heard enough Dofus veterans both praise and complain about various changes to conclude that the games are markedly different in execution despite essentially being the same core system.
### Oh, Allison, you indeed will be missed. The most hilarious moments of this show were when you were aboard. Wish you success ###
It sucks that Alison is leaving the show, but great that she's getting enough work that she needs to. Hope to see you again someday!
This explains exactly why I didn't get into WOW. I never thought about it in an intrinsic vs extrinsic manner though. I was playing the trial for it. When it came to the end of the trial, I knew I was hooked on it (extrinsic rewards) but because of the monthly subscription that I would have to pay, I asked myself, am I actually enjoying myself. Then answer was no.
Sorry if you're getting spammed with responses, but Retcon is shorthand for "Retroactive Continuity", which is a proper noun denoting a process by which one modifies the background or history of a story. When used as a verb, as in, "to retcon", it means to override previously established in-world history of a fictional story with new information to outright replace it. I'll continue this in the next post:
The most recent game that's had the most intrinsic value for me is Fire Emblem: Awakening. I love the cutscenes by themselves. I love the character interactions by themselves. And each battle is fun in and of itself, whether I'm playing a level for the first time and getting story with it or if I'm playing the same level later on just to grind my lower-level characters. Each part of the game is so much fun in and of themselves for totally different reasons. It's a fantastic feeling.
"..for the joy of grinding itself." wow that's a sentence I never thought I'd hear
Allison gone + outro music = feels
THANK YOU for pointing out that the KH storyline can go stupidly insane to the point where I'm pretty sure both Ansem and Sora have schizophrenia.
That being said I still love the series.
How the HELL does this channel only have 117,000 subscribers?!?!
1:57 - That is what ergoraptor calls the longest page ever turned.
That little stab at kingdom hearts was way too funny.
I can already tell the new member illustrated this episode by the style of it C:
Anyway, welcome Scott!
hikari is the japanese version ( original ) of this song, simple and clean is the english version with some changes. The version in this video is a Rock cover by Rising sun of the original version thus Hikari. Hope i didn't miss anything. =)
This video is an eye-opening experience
Welcome to the show Scott!
And good luck Allison, in all your endeavours
the thing i love about the Shin megami tensi(at least the more recent ones) series is how it rewards you for hitting enemy weaknesses, instead of just doing extra damage, they add something that is exclusive to critting and hitting weaknesses.
0:28 uhh the computer, it's on. Hello? don't forget about the power bill! TURN OF THE COMPUTER!
It'sMeMagna117 some say that computer is still on to this day.
Some say thelegend27 started using it to play game of war.
A short but easily one of the best episodes ever. P
Thank you for this, I was struggling with these definitions for psychology.
Glad to see that ExtraCreditz is a fan of KH.
Aw, Allison left?! I have so many memories of her presence in the sketches. Will miss loads.
Although, this new guy...
*knocking* "Mr DeWitt!" *louder knocking* "MISTER DEWITT!!!" *obnoxiously loud knocking* "WE HAD A DEAL, DEWITT!"
You know what's an intrinsically fun game? *SPECTROBES ORIGINS.* The battle mechanics are hella fun!
...Y'know what, so is dungeon crawling in the Pokémon Mystery Dungeon games.
I actually have the opposite opinion of the PMD games. I think the dungeon crawling is boring. I liked the idea of the story, but stopped playing the games because I had to go through so much of the dungeon crawling I liked just to get small pieces of the story I actually wanted. But that's why everyone has differently likes and wants.
ZygonCannar Did you play any of the regular pokemon games? You would have to play those first in order to experience the full impact of playing a spinoff.
***** Uhh. Did you even read the comment? I said the dungeon crawling was boring. Yes I played the previous games. That didn't make the boring, randomly generated meh dungeons any more exciting for me. That has nothing to do with whether or not I liked the genre.
Forrest Weldon Well you should make the comment more clearer then. I assumed you were still talking about PMD especially when you brought up the story.
Also there are many more forms of dungeon crawling.
I was. Not pokemon the main series. PMD was boring outside of the story. I was pretty clear.
3:31
funny. Battling against rathalos and obtaining rathalos plate is very fun in both ways
I'm personally fond of TWEWY, because of it's "Challenge through Mechanics." It uses both screens, and two types of controls at the same time. One character is controlled with buttons, while another uses the touch scree, and unless you have four arms, good luck using both at the same time. Challenge through mechanics is at it's best, as many of the enemies attack both characters at the same time while you can only attack with one.
I have to say, after 2.5 years of playing League of Legends, I get nothing but intrinsic rewards from playing it, since I've surpassed the grind and now find joy in each individual game, regardless of outcome. In the beginning, I was just playing to win and unlock that champion that looked sort of fun, but now that I've been playing for so long and unlocked most of the enjoyable content, there is no more feeling of "Oh I need to save up mah IP cause that Ahri looks so dope." I can now focus solely on the gameplay, which is what I pull my entertainment out of.
I experienced both in comparison in Skyrim. Most of the dungeons I only played to move on, but there were those I explored because I liked that specific dungeon.
Welcome to the show Scoot, and good luck Allison.
Bye Allison, hope you come back someday! :D