The most unbelievable element of this story is that due to crowding on the cruise, billionaire Bruce Wayne is going to share his cabin with some reporter from Metropolis. Completely immersion-breaking.
They remade the story in the modern age. Not only is Bruce a billionaire VIP, but Clark is writing a make or break review of the cruise, making it even more ridiculous. The captain looks nervous when telling them they have to share
And they have a new villain. Deathstroke is there to assassinate Bruce Wayne. And then Deathstroke from Earth 3, who is Deadpool period, shows up because he's been hired to save Bruce Wayne. In the end the narrator actually says "and ambush bug played chess with darkseid," it just becomes that ridiculous.
@@renatocorvaro6924 Even a multimillionaire wouldn't be on the same cruise as a newspaper reporter. They really expected us to believe that Bruce and Clark take the same kinds of vacations? Lol. Bruce, if he ever were to take a vacation, would probably go to Epstein Island or something.
For me, the first evidence of an Earth-One / Earth-Two dividing line is Superboy. For a while, "Superboy" comics were published at the same time as "Superman" and "Action" comics, which were still holding that Superman's career started as an adult. So in my head, "Superboy" was the first comic about an Earth-One hero, and he grew up into the Earth-One Superman who eventually took over "Action" and "Superman".
Honestly at the end of the day there is really no separation of "ages" in the batman comics. Its all head cannon. Mostly because DC has awful at reboots because they never go full reboot.
The interpretation I like is that the stories kinda start alternating at some point. Most are ambiguous, but some are clearly events that would have taken place in Earth-Two or Earth-One. You can actually date Earth-One Superman back to 1945 with the introduction of the Golden Age Superboy, because Earth-Two Superman never put on the costume until he was an adult.
Don't forget Superman was originally Kal-L, son of Jor-L, with Clark Kent working for George Taylor at the Daily Star. The names became Kal-El, Jor-El, Perry White and the Daily Planet -- all associated with Earth-1 -- between 1940 and 1945. For the record, Kal-L's Earth-2 mothers are Lora and Mary Kent. Lora was never used in Golden Age comics -- the name originated in the syndicated newspaper strip -- but established as Lara in 1941. Mary changed to Martha in 1951. The bottom line is there is no clear dividing line between the Earth-2 and Earth-1 versions of Superman (or Batman and Wonder Woman). If we're determined to be continuity wonks, considerable overlap must be assumed, meaning some stories happened to both versions of the characters.
I always liked John Byrne's story about Superman and Batman's first encounter in the Man of Steel miniseries. It told you a lot of essential things about the characters in a single issue.
The first live-action DC multiverse was actually introduced and developed in 1991 in the live-action Superboy tv series, in episodes written by Stan Berkowitz. Involving him going to multiple earths including one where he murdered Lex Luthor, one where he's a communist dictator ala Red Son (though it was made a decade earlier) and another earth where he meets a Superman that landed during the great depression and has since turned the world into a utopia. Shame the CW didn't give Superboy a cameo in Crisis on Infinite Earths, because it owes A LOT to it.
I remember reading this for the first time in the collection "Superman: From The 30s To The 70s", which had a lot of interesting story landmarks for the Man of Steel. The related Batman collection is also a good read, featuring the first appearance of Batgirl. The only drawback is that the majority of the pages in these books were in black and white, with a few color sections. If you can find it, the story where Superman and Orson Welles team up to stop a Martian invasion of Earth is well worth the read, even if it is a Superman story.
Isn't it possible that two Batmen on two different Earths went on the same adventures, or at least markedly similar ones? So it's like, there's a lot of stories which may have happened on BOTH earths, right?
The two Batmen did in fact go on the same or similar adventures. It was actually confirmed a number of times. For example, Earth-1 Batman fought both Earth-1 and Earth-2 Hugo Strange in different stories. And in both cases, Strange's early Golden Age history was referenced.
I wrote my opinion before reading this but I absolutely agree on that key point. Earth 2 Batman would have something like a thirty plus year career. He only retired when he had to. Also as we've learned the original non-lesbian Batwoman had a counterpart on both earths and even in the current continuity according to Grant Morrison who showed a lot of those Sci Fi stories happened, possibly on all three worlds!
@@Supertron1 In addition, Batman's very first adventure in Detective Comics #27 is also directly referenced as also happening in Earth-One too. There is one crossover event in which Johnny Thunder's Thunderbolt goes back in time to screw over Batman in his first adventure, which is a direct panel-for-panel copy of the 1939 comic in the same artstyle. I think, unless the stories directly contradict eachother (like Batman being part of the Justice Society, or fighting in WW2), it's fairly safe to assume most Golden Age stories for the DC Trinity are canon to both Earth-One and Earth-Two.
Thanks to you Steve Shives I now understand the concept of "Earth one" and "Earth two" and may I add I'm glad that we have you Steve Shives along with your You Tube channel here on this Earth.
If Steve shudders at the idea of a week-long cruise, I wonder if he is cut out for "a five-year mission: to explore strange new worlds. To seek out new life and new civilizations". I'm sure that the Enterprise offers deck-hockey and an all-you-can-eat buffet; but you are still trapped aboard ship with the same people, day in, day out. The only new faces you get to see are trying to kill you, or are replacements for crew-members who have been killed.
There was also a story where Superboy went back in time trying to prevent the assassination of Lincoln. It was pointed out in a subsequent lettercol that the style of the cars and other things in Smallville had been updated upon his return to his own present in order to align his timeline with his older self. Up to that point all of his adventures took place within a narrow span of years while Superman’s world kept up with the times IRL.
@@RLucas3000 It was reprinted in an old Superboy 80 Page Giant. He was paralyzed by a piece of Red Kryptonite courtesy of an Adult Lex Luthor who absurdly thought Superman contacted his past self to go after the time traveling Luthor. Once news of Lincoln's death was shouted in the streets Luther realized Superboy was there to try and change history and was guiltstricken at his own role in Lincoln's death and left with the Kryptonite that of course would not work on Kael-El another time. Guess he was afraid he'd encounter Supergirl next!
The success of "Into the Spider-Verse" back in 2018 probably did open doors, or at least boost confidence, but I'd say that there was already an opening at least from the success of 2014's "X-Men: Days of Future Past." And it's somewhat amusing that the theories of that film were conveyed to popular audiences with explicit references to some classic Star Trek.
Julius Schwartz doesn’t get enough credit for his Batman contributions. Denny O’Neil made Batman dark again, but Julie Schwartz had to make him somewhat serious again first.
I started reading comics in 1987-8, second or third grade. The first three works I picked up were Batman: Year One, The Dark Knight Returns, and Crisis on Infinite Earths. I first read Crisis, then the great JSA/JLA team-ups, *then* the Bronze Age JSA stories (and *finally* “Flash of Two Worlds” - in hindsight, this is like reading right to left). So it wasn’t until I was a grown-ass man, that I considered the actual release order of these comics and realized that nobody ever went back and decided on a concrete, canon, splitting point. The complexity deepens when you consider that most of these heroes - who had continuous identities as the multiverse was born - have all these *tiny* inconsistencies in backstory that mean you can’t just imagine they were one character until the multiverse was born and as of “Flash of Two Worlds” they split into two. Also: props to J’onn’s first appearance as the birth of the Silver Age. Never considered it before, but it makes more sense since otherwise you have to consider him a sorta-Golden Age or interregnum creation despite his identity as the archetypal Silver Age and the perennial Leaguer.
DC came up with MOST of the big concepts in superhero comics somewhere along the line. Nobody is debating that who knows anything about anything in comics. What DC's problem is is that they keep shooting themselves in the foot when trying to do those concepts justice on the big screen to get the rest of the world to care. This dark, gritty, overly serious "look at us and how cool we are" attitude is killing them and Marvel is just blowing right past them.
Wonder Woman hit the silver age the second Ross Andre took over the art from H.G. Peter, Superman’s silver age stories started with the introduction of Brainiac! I completely agree the “New Look” was the beginning of Batman’s silver age! Thanks for covering this topic you really knock it out of the park! I’d suggest you could also explore pre-code 50s Batman’s transition to post code 50s Batman!
Thanks to you Steve Shives I now understand the concept of "Earth one" and "Earth two" and may I add I'm glad that we have you Steve Shives along with your You tube channel here on this Earth. PS This comment is posted from yours truly on "Earth two" below is the one posted from yours truly on "Earth one" Both Earth's enjoy your videos/channel.
I can't be the only one who finds it asinine that the original universe is labeled "Earth 2" while its future iteration is labeled "Earth 1". On a side-note; Damn, comics used to have such whimsical charm. It's a shame they take themselves _too_ seriously now and are no longer fun (and no, I'm not amused by edgy dark humor).
Schwartz's original proposal called for just that: Golden Age on Earth-One and Silver Age on Earth-Two, but the writer (I think it was Gardner Fox) suggested they swap the numbers, so that the stories they were currently writing would take place on Earth-One and would therefore seem primary. Since Earth-One was to be the main universe, it should be the "first" universe. That was the idea. But, I see how your reading makes sense, too. Ultimately, it doesn't matter one way or the other.
The in-universe explanation (such as it is) was that they named based on the direction of travel. The first known trip was Barry going from his Earth to Jay's, hence the numbers.
Yes, in DC Comics Presents Annual #1 (1982), the Earth-1 and Earth-2 Luthors team up with Ultraman (the evil Superman from Earth-3) and reiterate the "direction of contact" explanation, because Ultraman is all salty about being on Earth-3. ("Any Earth I'm on is Earth-1!")
For me Silver Age Batman begins with the comic code introduction in 1956. Every story from that point on becomes about scince fiction and wacky stories. It wasn't until Carmine Infantino started his run when Batman became a Detective again with more grounded adventures.
For Earth 1 Superman,it was More Fun 101 or Superboy 1 of the more fleshed out/well known teenager. For Batman and his company it was Superman 76 which was considered their first meeting/team up,they met prior in All Star Comics shortly after the JSA debuted and either right before or shortly after All Star 8. I don’t really know if I would consider Wonder Woman 98 as the debut of E1 Wonder Woman though. Aquaman made his e1 debut in Adventure Comics 260 but Showcase gets the credit for that now because of the better cover and wasn’t a backup story feature.
I actually have the cruise ship story u mentioned cause it was included in a collection of Batman stories from that time I got I have multiple collections cause they are Batman stories and I like collecting everything Batman and they are usually well made books and it’s fun for me seeing how Batman has been written over the years
I just found your channel and I have to say that the way you explain comics, storylines and the things going on behind the scenes is so lovely. Thank you for the comic videos, from one comic lover to another!
The biggest wrench thrown into the conventional ideas about "which earth" certain 60s Batman stories take place on is that some writers like Bob Haney just didn't care about continuity. One issue of Brave and the Bold had a Batman/ Sgt. Rock team-up which took place in World War II yet featured Batman using his then-current Batsuit with the yellow oval. If the timeline was consistent it would be an Earth 2 story, but it's clearly supposed to be Earth 1 Batman because Bob Haney didn't care for the deep lore and nerdery.
Gee, Steve, I get the impression that you don't like cruises. I guess I know what not to get you for a gift. Growing up loving comics, but having no money to buy them (not sure my folks would have let me even if I did) I love that you're digging into the older comics to find this stuff. Ah, I love this geekery, don't stop.
I would presume that Superman 76 was a flashback story of Earth-2 Superman and Batman's first meeting. Like you said, All-Star Comics 7 was the first time they were on the page together, but they already seemed to know each other. Detective Comics 327 really does seem to be the best answer to when Earth-1 Batman was first introduced.
Actually there's no way that it can be Detective 327 as that has a cover date of May 1964, four years after the first appearance of the Justice League, which at the time included Batman
Determining the earliest possible appearance can be tricky (and some stories may even take place on both Earths), but it's easy enough to establish a "no later than" for the Earth-1 Batman's debut: The Brave and the Bold #28, covered dated March 1960 (so four years before Detective #327 May 1964). In that story Batman is clearly seen as a member of the Justice League (in their first appearance). Earth-2 Batman was a member of the Justice Society but never the Justice League, so this story is the absolute latest possibility for Earth-1 Batman's first appearance.
Aquaman and Green Arrow were also continuously published. Detective Comics 327 can't be the first Earth-One story. The Justice League was one Earth-One. Batman was a prominent member unlike in the Justice Society. Look at JLA 144 - The Origin of the Justice League -- Minus One - was there a transition for all the Earth-One Golden Age heroes that had Earth-Two and Earth-X counterparts? I believe that there is no definition point in the DC multiverse where the transition occurs. Now that virtually all of the Golden Age and Silver Age stories can be read online for free, just enjoy them. Continuity is a spotty thing.
I was really hoping you were going to mention Alan Brennert's excellent stories with Batman from Earth 1 crossing over into Earth 2, or even a completely new Earth where he managed to save his parent's dopplegangers
If it wasn't for Alan Brennert's Brave And Bold stories there wouldn't even be a Batwoman on Earth 2. Long before said stories as a kid I theorized that the first Batwoman appearance was the start of Silver Age Batman. Now that this theory is disproven it gets adopted by DC. The first Batwoman appearance is literally the first story in the Silver Age Batman Omnibus Volume 1! What I don't get is why the Bronze Age is predated before the end of Crisis in Infinite Earths since it was what ended Earth 1 and 2 in their original versions. Which didn't stop the ghost of the Earth 2 Batman appearing after it in was it a JSA or Hawkman story? It involved The Gentleman Ghost? Of course The Spectre crossed over in all continuities so maybe Ghosts were not bound by the Crisis?
All ambiguous stories are just events that took place in both universes in a nearly identical manner, so all of these stories are equally valid starting points. The least committed answer.
The way I see it, Golden and Silver Age stories happened in the past, both in Earth-1 and Earth-2. That’s why there are explicit references to Batman #1 and Batman #59 (Deadshot’s first appearance) in the Englehart and Rogers’ run from the 70s. Also, in Earth-1 stories occasionally there would be a flashback to Batman’s early days and he would be shown without the oval on his chest. (The difference would be that in Earth-2, the stories actually took place between the 30s and 50s because that continuity moved along “in real time” (sort of); while in Earth-1’s case the stories from the Golden and Silver ages happened “at some point in the past”, given the fact that this was DC’s main continuity at the time and therefore was stuck in “perpetual present” (even though fashion and technology changed to reflect the time in which the stories were done).
Yeah they worn different batsuits Earth-Two Batman = 1939 gray and black costume with the weird ears and purple gloves (Bill Finger) > 1940-1979 gray and blue costume with the short ears and no oval (Sheldon Moldoff, Dick Sprang...) Earth-One Batman: Moldoff/Sprang costume (50s to early 1964) > Carmine Infantino's yellow oval with short ears (1964-1969) > Neal Adams's longer ears and cape costume (1970-1986)
I alway got bit annoyed at the Who's Who entrys on Batman from Earth One and Earth Two, they were given the same height and weight and YET, especially when Neal Adams drew him, the Earth One Batman was clearly more slim, yet toned, compared to the barrel chested, buff Dad-who-works-out, Earth Two Batman.
Excellent job! I would possibly use the term RETCON. The same problems occur with serial comic heroes that occur with sitcoms. They produce so much story that you are dragging canon. (this happens to all sociological events, and I once wrote an article about it for IDEA magazine in the eighties) RETCON means Retroactive Continuity. That's when you have to go back and 'fix' an earlier story that doesn't fit in. When the characters are nearing a hundred years old, that's a lot of baggage.
Originally the B&W Hulk magazine started with that exact premise but Marvel later rethought that notion. I wish they hadn't since those stories set in the early 1960's were the first time I enjoyed the Hulk in years!
Awesome. I love Batman and have been working through Detective Comics. I'm curious, though, as to how you'd tackle Detective Comics 500, specifically the lead story "To Kill A Legend". Note the approx. 20 year retro-version of Batman(s) thus separating the Golden Age from Bronze Age Batman (and this "new" alternative universe Batman where the Waynes don't die). Love to see a follow up video on that issue and similar spins on the Dark Knight. :)
Oh and I think one of the reasons for DC's multiverse response to continuity arose was because most of the stories from the 1940s up to the 1960s were very episodic. Standalone stories can have greater flexibility with continuity than the more tightly woven universe over at Marvel. For Marvel, the solution was to recalculate the time elapse back ten to fifteen years and ignore discontinuity arising from historical events. But for DC, continuity was not a problem until so much time had passed that a reset was needed to explain several decades of character stories. Yet, the Flash and Green Lantern both were turning points to explain (or ignore) from the Golden Age. Anyway, thanks for the wonderful walk through in this video! Really enjoyed it.
Steve, I am loving these Batman and Superman essays. They have reawakened my love of those characters--without requiring a long and expensive collector hobby. Can you do a film review or a discussion about the Lego Batman movie, please? :-)
Thank you for addressing a question I've been asking myself since I was 12. Also, I just realized the new look started in detective comics 327, the 300th appearance of Batman in detective comics. That's wild. I wonder if that was intentional?
"--and, because it wouldn't be a 1950s Superman comic without Superman mastermind-ing a mean spirited gaslighting of Lois Lane--" Excuse me, WHAT?! That happened on a regular basis? 😳
Thank you, Steve of Earth 471.8. The question of where in the continuity of the comics of those eras did the concept of 2 separate universes begin. Yours are the best explanations of how and why Yada Yada happened. Sure I’d like to have a tidy demarcation point, but ultimately just taking into account the styles of different writers and artists is really the sanest way to go. Thanks for your detailed explanations!
To me, the real question is, what's the first Batman story that CAN'T be E2 Batman. I suggest it's the same issue widely acknowledged as the first E1 Superman story, The Super-Key to Fort Superman, appearing in Action Comics #241, in June of 1958. Most Batman stories up to that point, unless there's like a reference to WWII or something, could have happened to either Batman.
I met Moldoff at a sci-fi convention in the '90s! He preferred his comics and the Adam West Batman over the Tim Burton Batman, which he considered "too violent," lol! I've been on cruise ships with my mother. They're not so bad. Last one had strippers!! My mom and aunts didn't like that one, lol! As for Golden Age vs. Silver Age disambiguation, I would have drawn the former like Batman the Animated Series, only I would put Batman and Robin in jodhpurs, given them dieselpunk tech and film noir/jive dialogue. The Silver Age would start with a rockabilly Batman and Robin, with an atompunk Batcave and Gotham. Think "The Jetsons meet the Thunderbirds," lol. The '60s get even wilder! Two words: Hippie Robin! The art gets psychedelic. The Dynamic Duo have to put down riots, save activists and politicians from sniper fire, actresses from cults and rock stars from plane crashes and drug overdoses, lol. Stargates would have helped, lol! Those were the "good old days," lol! 😆😁😅🤣😂😎🤓
Incidentally, I personally separate the Golden and Silver (and Silver and Bronze) ages to the events surrounding the creation of the Comics Code Authority in the mid '50s (and therefore loosening of the code with Marvel's publication of an anti-drug story in Amazing Spider-Man 96-98 in the early '70s). Of course, these are loose, idiosyncratic delineations that no one else I've mentioned them to agrees with, nor is anyone obligated to--the point is if you've read the comics around that time, you can make your own distinctions of when one age became another!
The dividing line on Superman comes to be a bit harder. I seem to recall hearing that, at first, the writers and editors weren't even sure there were a Golden Age Big Three on Earth-2, but at least Superman and Wonder Woman played roles in WW2, and if E-1 Wondy was origined then, E-2 had to exist. Batman just seemed to kind of follow since he had appeared in JSA with Supes. Then you had E-2 Dick donning a new costume in the mid-60's (goofy, but kind of Nightwing-esque in retrospect) which meant there had certainly been a Batman, now retired and serving as Gordon's successor as CGPD. However, E-2 Superman himself didn't appear as a distinct and separate character until 1969! He was almost silent and didn't have a real personality then and didn't even show true signs of aging just yet - he merely had the Golden Age costume and sang at the funeral of Dinah Drake's husband (before Dinah was separated out to have her mother being the GA version). As someone else mentioned here, Superboy is also an odd dividing line. On his 10th Anniversary, Superman's origins were retold in an issue (V1/48 of his own book, IIRC) but with a few oddities. It wasn't until the year after that Superman himself learned of his origins (a version of events later confirmed to be E2) and despite Superboy's recent debut, no mention of a boyhood career. It seems like, when Superboy first showed up, his stories were almost 'imaginary', just an extended series of What If? It was only several years after, when an adult Lana showed up in Superman stories, that we finally confirmed this as part of his past - and has become one of the prime dividing lines between E1 and E2. Many years after that, they had a Superboy story wherein he time/space traveled to E2 and met young Kal-L and convinced him to be a hero instead of a circus strongman! So besides the other issues with the If/When of the Big 3's dividing line for the Earths, there is the idea that the 60's/70's/80's and Infinite Crisis JSA/E2 versions we met and remember were not and were never their actual Golden Age selves, just modern approximations. Yes, I like to talk. Why do you ask?
One reason the dividing line on Superman is harder is because there were actually at least three Earths involved. Earth-2-A was created because the transition from the Daily Star to the Daily Planet actually occurred early in the Golden Age, so this became the defacto setting for any Superman story published in the 40's an early 50's that shows or mentions the Daily Planet. After the multiverse was established, there were stories set on both Earth-2 and Earth-1 that referenced Superman #76, which means the story is canon to both Earths despite predating the multiverse. But in the case of Earth-2, the only way the story works is as a flashback that takes place a short time before the start of WW2.
@@Supertron1 There are things like that which mean that E2 Superman was not precisely the GA Superman, because later stories set in that continuity - mostly the 'Mr. & Mrs. Superman' series in 'Superman Family'- kept the Daily Star, and even had Clark, not Perry, replacing 'George Taylor' as Editor In Chief. One neat little tidbit these stories threw in: While guests at the wedding of Bruce and Selina, the Kents also met the reformed and restored Two-Face, aka Harvey Kent, though apparently no relation to the Kent family of Smallville. They even intro'd a version of Lana - albeit Clark only knew about her father, a scientist who left Smallville when the town did not experience the boom E1's did because of Superboy.
@@shoresean1237 It's kinda weird because retroactively the setting shifts from E2 to E2A with the introduction of the Daily Planet in Action Comics #23 (1940). But the Mr. & Mrs. Superman series frequently indicated that the events seen in GA stories published after that also happened on E2. For example, the E2 Superman's base was the Secret Citadel, introduced in Superman #17 (1942). And the one-off armored villain Metalo from World's Finest #6 (1942) made a second and final appearance in Superman Family #217 (1982). I'm guessing whoever established that E2 Clark remained working at the Daily Star either didn't know the Daily Planet was introduced so early in the GA, or they were trying to retcon it.
This cruise story is amazing on so many levels, but my brain is just on a loop of how you have to change like... Basically nothing of this meet cute for the Clark/Bruce fic version of this story. And man I'd read the hell out of said fic. Also thank you as always Steve for asking questions we don't *need* to answer, but sure are a fun time to poke at.
I made a comment last week about inconsistencies were the place for fun fan theories to be born, didn’t know you had been working on a video along similar veins. Nice 😊.
Michigan State University has an incredible comicbook trove in its Special Collections at its library. I got to read Flash #123 and so many classic stories there.
i'm sorry? was bruce wayne not wealthy in 1952? a millionaire has to share a room with struggling journalist? is slumming it part of bruce's vacation also? the cruise ship wasn't enough?
First appearance of the Fastball Special? Also, it's pretty interesting that Martian Manhunter was a shapeshifting alien HERO at a time when this concept in film was used to demonize anything from socialists to migrants to Jews to whatever else.
Comics (and Star Trek) feel like modern folklore. Needs of the story are paramount; inconsistencies are like wonderfully different oral-history traditions. Thanks, Steve, for your videos and helping me think more clearly about why I enjoy the tale over the canon. :-) "The word 'folklore' in English is bandied about relatively freely. It is a concept people tend to feel they understand---until they try to explain it. [The difficult definition] has changed a great deal since 1846, when [it was introduced into English by Wm. J.] Thoms to describe 'the manners, customs, observances, superstitions, ballads, proverbs, &c., of the olden time.' ... It includes verbal folklore, everything from myth, legends, and folktales to jokes, anecdotes, memorates, and even slang. ... One aspect of folklore is ... 'traditionality[,]' ... referring to behaviors and beliefs that are infused with special meaning or value in the 'present' because of a sense of continuity with the 'past' and also with the 'future.' ... The process by which folklore operates is a kind of tug-of-war between two forces---the conservative pull of the past versus the immediate pull of present (and future) needs. Within this process there is also a contrast between the communal voice ... developed over ... years and the innovative[,] personal voice of the individual performer or participant. It is out of this tension between conservatism and dynamism that the folklore of the present is shaped and experienced." (M. D. Foster, "The Book of Yõkai," 11 [Univ. Cal. Press, 2015])
Firstly I would love to see a comic wherein Superman is a cosmetic surgeon, as a hobby in his spare time. He could visit Batman and at some point he would meet both Scar Face and the Joker and offer his services. Since both of them kinda turned into supervillains because of disfigurements, it would be funny if they then went back to a past (sane) life or even decided that crime wasn’t for them… until getting into accidents and becoming the opposite characters as they once were. Lol Second, wouldn’t our cruise ship goers only realized that ‘someone’ on board was Bat/Super man… along with everyone else on the ship? I mean if they realized who the others secret identity was by say voice matching and the limited number of people to listen to, others would to. Finally wouldn’t they have just looked for any location Superman couldn’t X-ray through if they couldn’t see the jewels? I mean Superman could scan the ship for objects that are likely hollow and see if any block his power. But also he has super hearing and can make loud noises such as a thunder clap (a literal clapping of his hands with full strength) and yelling (that was a thing he uses once), to essentially echolocate the items. O and I doubt a high voltage repairman would have on his boots on vacation. You would expect a fireman to take his fireproof suit with him?
Yes agreeably about when the Batman Switched Earths there are really 2 Earth-1 Continuities as we even see in Superman & Batman World's Funnest aka Superman & Batman World Funniest. Because of The Separation of The Silver Age and The Bronze Age So if you read The Amazing Heroes Batman Issue you'll see how it's even said That The Who's who entry of The Earth-1 Batman debuting in Detective Comics #327 really ought to be corrected and meaning coining this one as The B.A. Batman and The S.A. Batman between this entry and The G.A.Batman.
Batman wasn't wearing the yellow insignia during early issues of Justice League, It's possible earth one stories after Flash debut was Brainiac first appearance in 1958 ending Supermans adventures as 1950's Superboy.
I am not huge comic book fan, never got into them. So of I say something taboo here please forgive me. What if the different stories in a single book (say Detective Comics 225) come from different Earths? Like batman for a day could be Earth2 while Martian Manhunter is Earth1.
Entirely possible. Like I said, all the attempts to determine what the early Earth-Two/Earth-One appearances of various characters are, are acts of modern reinterpretation. So, maybe it would make sense to some fans to assign a random issue in the early '50s to Earth-One, while the rest of that title's run would remain set on Earth-Two for awhile.
That issue of Superman that led to the World's Finest teamups was actually referred to when they introduced the team as ongoing. Then a later issue flashbacked (or should I say Flashpoint?) to an earlier meeting before they learned each others identities. Both stories were reprinted in the same World's Finest 80 Page Giant! One thing I think all fans can agree on is both Earth One and Earth Two Batman shared some of the same adventures on their respective worlds! I'll also add as additional evidence that a "New Look" Batman story showed that Batman did not always have the yellow circle on his chest as a criminal who tried after leaving jail to impersonate Batman was tripped up because of that detail. Also it was the Earth 2 Batman was in the JSA and the Earth 1 Batman in the Justice League that was founded in 1959. Clearly at least some of the stories from 1959 were featuring the Earth 1 character even in his solo series. I'd guess the 1951 was the last of the Earth 2 only stories since that was the last year of the JSA. By the next year Batman and Superman of Earth 2 met. Seems to me as clean cut as it can get since the JLA origin story (another flashback) had Martian Manhunter commenting on Batman and Superman teaming up a lot. Some of those solo stories from 1952 (and earlier?) featured the Earth 1 Batman, some featured the Earth 2 original and some of these stories were common to both though details might vary in later retellings AKA The Untold Legend Of The Batman!
You see the division between Earth 1 and 2 makes total sense right up until you start thinking about it for more than a single second. Like trying to balance on something - the moment you notice it's all over.
It's easy to place those characters whose stories were no longer published as on Earth 2. But continuing characters are a fun problem as you pointed out. For Wonder Woman, for me, its when Queen Hippolyta became a blonde as the transition to Earth 1 stories. For Aquaman, it's when his origin changed from his dad using his baby son for experiments and giving him superpowers to the origin of his mother being a queen from the mythical Atlantis, making him the rightful king to Atlantis' throne. Green Arrow's original origin was he was a rich collector of native American artifacts and he trained himself to use their weapons, excelling in the use of the bow, so Earth 2. Now Earth 1's origin is him being a millionaire playboy being washed overboard from a yacht and landing on a deserted island, creating a bow and trick arrows to survive. Then we have fun folks like Captain Comet who first appeared in 1951 and his stories ran 1954 and then he vanished until the 70s, when he came back from space became the hero/punching bag for the Secret Society of Super-Villains. So he appeared at the end of the Golden Age/start of the short lasting Atomic Age. Was this on Earth 2. Or ... was he the very first Earth 1 superhero, appearing 20 years before the Earth 1 Superman and Batman? His SSoSV first appearance said he had been gone from Earth for 20 years and due to his mutant abilities, he hadn't aged a bit. Then we have Zatara the Magician. He first appeared along side Superman in Action Comics #1, even had a solo cover or two and lasted as a backup character into the mid-50s. So Earth 2. But ... in the 60s, we are introduced to his daughter Zatanna who is looking for her father. Clearly Earth-1. Like most of the others above, two of them? Earth 1's Zatara not being as famous or having as long as a crime-fighting career? How about the Vigilante, the western clothed one, not the later ones? Also Action Comics #1 and lasting until the mid-50s. Earth 2. But I think it was a JLA comic that had him co-starring. First appearance of an Earth 1 Vigilante? Fun stuff to think about.
Isn't The Batman supposed to take place on Earth 2? I can't wait for the sequel when Zoe Kravitz turns out to have had amnesia after getting hit on the head and she's really just a mild mannered pet store owner.
Simply having a minuscule, stealth-applicable device to hijack the brain’s motion is one thing, but using lead _solely over the spot it was placed_ is hilarious to me. Our brains let radio signals through, and actually the water in our brains carries the radio waves even stronger than air. (Fun fact, if you’re too far away to lock your car, holding the key next to your head can increase its range by like 5-10 feet.) So they’d have needed a full-head helmet - totally viable with the cowl, but Robin would’ve still been immobilised, it would just have gone through the side or back of his head rather than the front. I really like the totally constructed for the payoff and nothing else “Batman For A Day”. Brought a grin to my face thinking about Bruce getting a reason to publicly “be Batman”. Making it accidental just amps-up the heightened reality of it all. It would be one thing, believability-wise, if he’d plotted that out specifically to preemptively seed counter-information as a deterrent against future identity leaks or something. But having it be seemingly happenstance is just like, proudly ignoring how obviously-contrived it all is, not trying to justify it at all. Makes it all the better. Lastly, loving the inferential dig at other people complaining harder about desiring a completely “faithful to history” continuity and not just chilling out and enjoying every iteration for itself. Even when I was little, I treated different iterations of the same story as their own thing. Sure I often mused about which was the “real” version but I never got too invested in it. I never understood why some people take what could be a fun thought experiment and turn it into a matter of heated argument and cultural/fandom gatekeeping. Even when I was 7, I witnessed it happening and never understood the appeal.
I think the easiest way to explain it retroactively is that the "switch" happened in the first story you mentioned when the creative team, tone, and look of the book changed. And stories that make more sense to be set on earth 2 could retroactively be considered to take place in that universe instead of the universe they were intended to take place in when they were released. It's not an exact science, but theres a clear shift in that first story and theres no reason that there has to be a hard "switch"
If parallel worlds are on the table, can hypertime be far behind? Ahead? Already happened, happening, will happen? Hypertime is confusing. p.s. With regards to the skit at the end of the story, where does he get those wonderful toys? Seriously, I would like to know if those dolls are still available.
The most unbelievable element of this story is that due to crowding on the cruise, billionaire Bruce Wayne is going to share his cabin with some reporter from Metropolis. Completely immersion-breaking.
To be fair, at this point I think he was just a millionaire.
They remade the story in the modern age. Not only is Bruce a billionaire VIP, but Clark is writing a make or break review of the cruise, making it even more ridiculous. The captain looks nervous when telling them they have to share
And they have a new villain. Deathstroke is there to assassinate Bruce Wayne. And then Deathstroke from Earth 3, who is Deadpool period, shows up because he's been hired to save Bruce Wayne. In the end the narrator actually says "and ambush bug played chess with darkseid," it just becomes that ridiculous.
@@renatocorvaro6924 Even a multimillionaire wouldn't be on the same cruise as a newspaper reporter. They really expected us to believe that Bruce and Clark take the same kinds of vacations? Lol. Bruce, if he ever were to take a vacation, would probably go to Epstein Island or something.
@@nickkladky8396 Is the the one where Bruce and Clark struggle to fit in one bed?
For me, the first evidence of an Earth-One / Earth-Two dividing line is Superboy. For a while, "Superboy" comics were published at the same time as "Superman" and "Action" comics, which were still holding that Superman's career started as an adult. So in my head, "Superboy" was the first comic about an Earth-One hero, and he grew up into the Earth-One Superman who eventually took over "Action" and "Superman".
Right on!!
Honestly at the end of the day there is really no separation of "ages" in the batman comics. Its all head cannon. Mostly because DC has awful at reboots because they never go full reboot.
Batman roleplaying bruce roleplaying batman is one of the most delightfully absurd things I've seen and I love it.
The interpretation I like is that the stories kinda start alternating at some point. Most are ambiguous, but some are clearly events that would have taken place in Earth-Two or Earth-One.
You can actually date Earth-One Superman back to 1945 with the introduction of the Golden Age Superboy, because Earth-Two Superman never put on the costume until he was an adult.
Don't forget Superman was originally Kal-L, son of Jor-L, with Clark Kent working for George Taylor at the Daily Star. The names became Kal-El, Jor-El, Perry White and the Daily Planet -- all associated with Earth-1 -- between 1940 and 1945.
For the record, Kal-L's Earth-2 mothers are Lora and Mary Kent. Lora was never used in Golden Age comics -- the name originated in the syndicated newspaper strip -- but established as Lara in 1941. Mary changed to Martha in 1951.
The bottom line is there is no clear dividing line between the Earth-2 and Earth-1 versions of Superman (or Batman and Wonder Woman). If we're determined to be continuity wonks, considerable overlap must be assumed, meaning some stories happened to both versions of the characters.
Hadn't thought of that but excellent point about Superboy!
I always liked John Byrne's story about Superman and Batman's first encounter in the Man of Steel miniseries. It told you a lot of essential things about the characters in a single issue.
Man that "Batman for a Day" story sounds fun as hell
It really is.
The first live-action DC multiverse was actually introduced and developed in 1991 in the live-action Superboy tv series, in episodes written by Stan Berkowitz. Involving him going to multiple earths including one where he murdered Lex Luthor, one where he's a communist dictator ala Red Son (though it was made a decade earlier) and another earth where he meets a Superman that landed during the great depression and has since turned the world into a utopia. Shame the CW didn't give Superboy a cameo in Crisis on Infinite Earths, because it owes A LOT to it.
What episode was that?
@@jameshayes-barber9340 "Roads not Taken" from season 3
Awesome!!! I'm definitely looking into this series!!
Interesting! I only watched a couple of episodes myself. When I saw Lana Lang in a bathing suit I felt I saw the highpoint of the series!
I'm going to make an observation that might be a hot take, but I ask that everyone bear with me. I think Steve hates cruises.
Dammit. I thought I was being subtle . . .
@@logansmall5148 Would watch.
yeah, its rich conservative Steve from earth 45 that loves cruises
@@SteveShives it was subtle. Just like Let This Be Your Last Battlefield.
@@SteveShives Couldn't the boat cruise story take place before that JSA story and be how the Superman and Batman of Earth-2 met?
I remember reading this for the first time in the collection "Superman: From The 30s To The 70s", which had a lot of interesting story landmarks for the Man of Steel. The related Batman collection is also a good read, featuring the first appearance of Batgirl. The only drawback is that the majority of the pages in these books were in black and white, with a few color sections.
If you can find it, the story where Superman and Orson Welles team up to stop a Martian invasion of Earth is well worth the read, even if it is a Superman story.
Isn't it possible that two Batmen on two different Earths went on the same adventures, or at least markedly similar ones? So it's like, there's a lot of stories which may have happened on BOTH earths, right?
The two Batmen did in fact go on the same or similar adventures. It was actually confirmed a number of times. For example, Earth-1 Batman fought both Earth-1 and Earth-2 Hugo Strange in different stories. And in both cases, Strange's early Golden Age history was referenced.
I wrote my opinion before reading this but I absolutely agree on that key point. Earth 2 Batman would have something like a thirty plus year career. He only retired when he had to. Also as we've learned the original non-lesbian Batwoman had a counterpart on both earths and even in the current continuity according to Grant Morrison who showed a lot of those Sci Fi stories happened, possibly on all three worlds!
@@Supertron1
In addition, Batman's very first adventure in Detective Comics #27 is also directly referenced as also happening in Earth-One too. There is one crossover event in which Johnny Thunder's Thunderbolt goes back in time to screw over Batman in his first adventure, which is a direct panel-for-panel copy of the 1939 comic in the same artstyle.
I think, unless the stories directly contradict eachother (like Batman being part of the Justice Society, or fighting in WW2), it's fairly safe to assume most Golden Age stories for the DC Trinity are canon to both Earth-One and Earth-Two.
Yeah most of the 50s stories happened to both Batmen
I like that the captain made both Bruce and Clark share a cabin and Batman and Superman to share a different cabin on the same day
Thanks to you Steve Shives I now understand the concept of "Earth one" and "Earth two" and may I add I'm glad that we have you Steve Shives along with your You Tube channel here on this Earth.
If Steve shudders at the idea of a week-long cruise, I wonder if he is cut out for "a five-year mission: to explore strange new worlds. To seek out new life and new civilizations". I'm sure that the Enterprise offers deck-hockey and an all-you-can-eat buffet; but you are still trapped aboard ship with the same people, day in, day out. The only new faces you get to see are trying to kill you, or are replacements for crew-members who have been killed.
Cruise ships don't really seek much new life.
Well for 1 thing you are working on that ship, and for another, youre doing what you love and not paying money to do it.
There was also a story where Superboy went back in time trying to prevent the assassination of Lincoln. It was pointed out in a subsequent lettercol that the style of the cars and other things in Smallville had been updated upon his return to his own present in order to align his timeline with his older self. Up to that point all of his adventures took place within a narrow span of years while Superman’s world kept up with the times IRL.
@@RLucas3000 It was reprinted in an old Superboy 80 Page Giant. He was paralyzed by a piece of Red Kryptonite courtesy of an Adult Lex Luthor who absurdly thought Superman contacted his past self to go after the time traveling Luthor. Once news of Lincoln's death was shouted in the streets Luther realized Superboy was there to try and change history and was guiltstricken at his own role in Lincoln's death and left with the Kryptonite that of course would not work on Kael-El another time. Guess he was afraid he'd encounter Supergirl next!
The success of "Into the Spider-Verse" back in 2018 probably did open doors, or at least boost confidence, but I'd say that there was already an opening at least from the success of 2014's "X-Men: Days of Future Past." And it's somewhat amusing that the theories of that film were conveyed to popular audiences with explicit references to some classic Star Trek.
A brand new Steve Shives Batman related video to help get me through cramming all my school work? MUST BE MY LUCKY DAY
Julius Schwartz doesn’t get enough credit for his Batman contributions. Denny O’Neil made Batman dark again, but Julie Schwartz had to make him somewhat serious again first.
@Michael Ward Actually, Miller started the dark and edgy stuff. The others understood Batman and made him a symbol of hope
@@Ian-hj4yt batman is a symbol of justice,darkness and fear.
@@nkemnoraulmanfredini7286how exactly?
I started reading comics in 1987-8, second or third grade. The first three works I picked up were Batman: Year One, The Dark Knight Returns, and Crisis on Infinite Earths. I first read Crisis, then the great JSA/JLA team-ups, *then* the Bronze Age JSA stories (and *finally* “Flash of Two Worlds” - in hindsight, this is like reading right to left). So it wasn’t until I was a grown-ass man, that I considered the actual release order of these comics and realized that nobody ever went back and decided on a concrete, canon, splitting point.
The complexity deepens when you consider that most of these heroes - who had continuous identities as the multiverse was born - have all these *tiny* inconsistencies in backstory that mean you can’t just imagine they were one character until the multiverse was born and as of “Flash of Two Worlds” they split into two.
Also: props to J’onn’s first appearance as the birth of the Silver Age. Never considered it before, but it makes more sense since otherwise you have to consider him a sorta-Golden Age or interregnum creation despite his identity as the archetypal Silver Age and the perennial Leaguer.
Superman and Batman also worked together in All-Star 37. They sub for two other JSA members.
DC came up with MOST of the big concepts in superhero comics somewhere along the line. Nobody is debating that who knows anything about anything in comics. What DC's problem is is that they keep shooting themselves in the foot when trying to do those concepts justice on the big screen to get the rest of the world to care. This dark, gritty, overly serious "look at us and how cool we are" attitude is killing them and Marvel is just blowing right past them.
Wonder Woman hit the silver age the second Ross Andre took over the art from H.G. Peter, Superman’s silver age stories started with the introduction of Brainiac! I completely agree the “New Look” was the beginning of Batman’s silver age! Thanks for covering this topic you really knock it out of the park! I’d suggest you could also explore pre-code 50s Batman’s transition to post code 50s Batman!
Thanks to you Steve Shives I now understand the concept of "Earth one" and "Earth two" and may I add I'm glad that we have you Steve Shives along with your You tube channel here on this Earth. PS This comment is posted from yours truly on "Earth two" below is the one posted from yours truly on "Earth one" Both Earth's enjoy your videos/channel.
I can't be the only one who finds it asinine that the original universe is labeled "Earth 2" while its future iteration is labeled "Earth 1".
On a side-note;
Damn, comics used to have such whimsical charm. It's a shame they take themselves _too_ seriously now and are no longer fun (and no, I'm not amused by edgy dark humor).
Schwartz's original proposal called for just that: Golden Age on Earth-One and Silver Age on Earth-Two, but the writer (I think it was Gardner Fox) suggested they swap the numbers, so that the stories they were currently writing would take place on Earth-One and would therefore seem primary. Since Earth-One was to be the main universe, it should be the "first" universe. That was the idea. But, I see how your reading makes sense, too. Ultimately, it doesn't matter one way or the other.
They referenced that in Infinite Crisis. The Earth-Two Superman said that they knew they came first but they were too polite to comment about it
The in-universe explanation (such as it is) was that they named based on the direction of travel. The first known trip was Barry going from his Earth to Jay's, hence the numbers.
Yes, in DC Comics Presents Annual #1 (1982), the Earth-1 and Earth-2 Luthors team up with Ultraman (the evil Superman from Earth-3) and reiterate the "direction of contact" explanation, because Ultraman is all salty about being on Earth-3. ("Any Earth I'm on is Earth-1!")
You're not alone, the golden age ones came first damnit
I just realized that in all my years of reading comics, I've read several versions of the Martian Manhunter origin...but never the real thing!
For me Silver Age Batman begins with the comic code introduction in 1956. Every story from that point on becomes about scince fiction and wacky stories. It wasn't until Carmine Infantino started his run when Batman became a Detective again with more grounded adventures.
As it turns out, everything in our lives after 2015 takes place in the Berenstain universe, whereas before was the Berenstein universe.
But is anyone from the Frankenstain universe?
For Earth 1 Superman,it was More Fun 101 or Superboy 1 of the more fleshed out/well known teenager. For Batman and his company it was Superman 76 which was considered their first meeting/team up,they met prior in All Star Comics shortly after the JSA debuted and either right before or shortly after All Star 8. I don’t really know if I would consider Wonder Woman 98 as the debut of E1 Wonder Woman though. Aquaman made his e1 debut in Adventure Comics 260 but Showcase gets the credit for that now because of the better cover and wasn’t a backup story feature.
DC got the multiverse idea right the first time. Crisis kinda just messed things up.
I actually have the cruise ship story u mentioned cause it was included in a collection of Batman stories from that time I got I have multiple collections cause they are Batman stories and I like collecting everything Batman and they are usually well made books and it’s fun for me seeing how Batman has been written over the years
I've always like the multiverse trope. Seeing well known characters in different "what if" circumstances is always entertaining.
I just found your channel and I have to say that the way you explain comics, storylines and the things going on behind the scenes is so lovely. Thank you for the comic videos, from one comic lover to another!
The biggest wrench thrown into the conventional ideas about "which earth" certain 60s Batman stories take place on is that some writers like Bob Haney just didn't care about continuity. One issue of Brave and the Bold had a Batman/ Sgt. Rock team-up which took place in World War II yet featured Batman using his then-current Batsuit with the yellow oval. If the timeline was consistent it would be an Earth 2 story, but it's clearly supposed to be Earth 1 Batman because Bob Haney didn't care for the deep lore and nerdery.
so Superman and Batman first met on a cruise ship? imagine that being in the plot of Batman V Superman movie.
Gee, Steve, I get the impression that you don't like cruises. I guess I know what not to get you for a gift. Growing up loving comics, but having no money to buy them (not sure my folks would have let me even if I did) I love that you're digging into the older comics to find this stuff. Ah, I love this geekery, don't stop.
DC also has been playing with its multiverse on television for some time in its Arrowverse shows.
I would presume that Superman 76 was a flashback story of Earth-2 Superman and Batman's first meeting. Like you said, All-Star Comics 7 was the first time they were on the page together, but they already seemed to know each other.
Detective Comics 327 really does seem to be the best answer to when Earth-1 Batman was first introduced.
Actually there's no way that it can be Detective 327 as that has a cover date of May 1964, four years after the first appearance of the Justice League, which at the time included Batman
Determining the earliest possible appearance can be tricky (and some stories may even take place on both Earths), but it's easy enough to establish a "no later than" for the Earth-1 Batman's debut: The Brave and the Bold #28, covered dated March 1960 (so four years before Detective #327 May 1964). In that story Batman is clearly seen as a member of the Justice League (in their first appearance). Earth-2 Batman was a member of the Justice Society but never the Justice League, so this story is the absolute latest possibility for Earth-1 Batman's first appearance.
Lol a movie about supes and batman meeting on a cruise ship - i wont lie, would be hilarious. As a weird meetcute comedy would be ridiculous hahaha
Aquaman and Green Arrow were also continuously published. Detective Comics 327 can't be the first Earth-One story. The Justice League was one Earth-One. Batman was a prominent member unlike in the Justice Society. Look at JLA 144 - The Origin of the Justice League -- Minus One - was there a transition for all the Earth-One Golden Age heroes that had Earth-Two and Earth-X counterparts? I believe that there is no definition point in the DC multiverse where the transition occurs. Now that virtually all of the Golden Age and Silver Age stories can be read online for free, just enjoy them. Continuity is a spotty thing.
I really enjoy these videos.
My favorite comics were always the ones where Batman and Superman work together.
OMG GUYS! They were roomates!
...cabinmates? Oh well, it still works as a meme.
I was really hoping you were going to mention Alan Brennert's excellent stories with Batman from Earth 1 crossing over into Earth 2, or even a completely new Earth where he managed to save his parent's dopplegangers
If it wasn't for Alan Brennert's Brave And Bold stories there wouldn't even be a Batwoman on Earth 2. Long before said stories as a kid I theorized that the first Batwoman appearance was the start of Silver Age Batman. Now that this theory is disproven it gets adopted by DC. The first Batwoman appearance is literally the first story in the Silver Age Batman Omnibus Volume 1! What I don't get is why the Bronze Age is predated before the end of Crisis in Infinite Earths since it was what ended Earth 1 and 2 in their original versions. Which didn't stop the ghost of the Earth 2 Batman appearing after it in was it a JSA or Hawkman story? It involved The Gentleman Ghost? Of course The Spectre crossed over in all continuities so maybe Ghosts were not bound by the Crisis?
That moment when you're so engrossed that you try to scroll the video up to see the panels that aren't actually in frame. 🤣
I did the same! 😀
Your Batman vids are my favorite vids on TH-cam, especially when you have those little skits at the end
All ambiguous stories are just events that took place in both universes in a nearly identical manner, so all of these stories are equally valid starting points.
The least committed answer.
I remember a DC editor back in the day giving a similar answer, so you're onto something.
The way I see it, Golden and Silver Age stories happened in the past, both in Earth-1 and Earth-2. That’s why there are explicit references to Batman #1 and Batman #59 (Deadshot’s first appearance) in the Englehart and Rogers’ run from the 70s. Also, in Earth-1 stories occasionally there would be a flashback to Batman’s early days and he would be shown without the oval on his chest. (The difference would be that in Earth-2, the stories actually took place between the 30s and 50s because that continuity moved along “in real time” (sort of); while in Earth-1’s case the stories from the Golden and Silver ages happened “at some point in the past”, given the fact that this was DC’s main continuity at the time and therefore was stuck in “perpetual present” (even though fashion and technology changed to reflect the time in which the stories were done).
Yeah they worn different batsuits
Earth-Two Batman = 1939 gray and black costume with the weird ears and purple gloves (Bill Finger) > 1940-1979 gray and blue costume with the short ears and no oval (Sheldon Moldoff, Dick Sprang...)
Earth-One Batman: Moldoff/Sprang costume (50s to early 1964) > Carmine Infantino's yellow oval with short ears (1964-1969) > Neal Adams's longer ears and cape costume (1970-1986)
Awesome video dude. I've always wondered this and this was a great exploration of the question
I alway got bit annoyed at the Who's Who entrys on Batman from Earth One and Earth Two, they were given the same height and weight and YET, especially when Neal Adams drew him, the Earth One Batman was clearly more slim, yet toned, compared to the barrel chested, buff Dad-who-works-out, Earth Two Batman.
Excellent job! I would possibly use the term RETCON. The same problems occur with serial comic heroes that occur with sitcoms. They produce so much story that you are dragging canon. (this happens to all sociological events, and I once wrote an article about it for IDEA magazine in the eighties) RETCON means Retroactive Continuity. That's when you have to go back and 'fix' an earlier story that doesn't fit in. When the characters are nearing a hundred years old, that's a lot of baggage.
Originally the B&W Hulk magazine started with that exact premise but Marvel later rethought that notion. I wish they hadn't since those stories set in the early 1960's were the first time I enjoyed the Hulk in years!
Awesome. I love Batman and have been working through Detective Comics. I'm curious, though, as to how you'd tackle Detective Comics 500, specifically the lead story "To Kill A Legend". Note the approx. 20 year retro-version of Batman(s) thus separating the Golden Age from Bronze Age Batman (and this "new" alternative universe Batman where the Waynes don't die). Love to see a follow up video on that issue and similar spins on the Dark Knight. :)
Oh and I think one of the reasons for DC's multiverse response to continuity arose was because most of the stories from the 1940s up to the 1960s were very episodic. Standalone stories can have greater flexibility with continuity than the more tightly woven universe over at Marvel. For Marvel, the solution was to recalculate the time elapse back ten to fifteen years and ignore discontinuity arising from historical events. But for DC, continuity was not a problem until so much time had passed that a reset was needed to explain several decades of character stories. Yet, the Flash and Green Lantern both were turning points to explain (or ignore) from the Golden Age. Anyway, thanks for the wonderful walk through in this video! Really enjoyed it.
The first Earth 1 appearance of Superman was in 1945 with the debut of Superboy.
That stupid Lois dating Robin joke got me. Good job silver age comics!
Oh Steve, you have a way of making my day an adventure! LOL! Thanks buddy!
Steve, I am loving these Batman and Superman essays. They have reawakened my love of those characters--without requiring a long and expensive collector hobby. Can you do a film review or a discussion about the Lego Batman movie, please? :-)
Thank you for addressing a question I've been asking myself since I was 12. Also, I just realized the new look started in detective comics 327, the 300th appearance of Batman in detective comics. That's wild. I wonder if that was intentional?
yes. Batman needed to be reinvented or it was going to be cancelled and that worked
"--and, because it wouldn't be a 1950s Superman comic without Superman mastermind-ing a mean spirited gaslighting of Lois Lane--" Excuse me, WHAT?! That happened on a regular basis? 😳
Yep
Thank you, Steve of Earth 471.8. The question of where in the continuity of the comics of those eras did the concept of 2 separate universes begin. Yours are the best explanations of how and why Yada Yada happened. Sure I’d like to have a tidy demarcation point, but ultimately just taking into account the styles of different writers and artists is really the sanest way to go. Thanks for your detailed explanations!
The collar on that Robin doll cape is huge! 🤣🤣🤣
I now know Steve's opinion of the Star Trek Cruises
Man, I'm so happy I found your channel. Such fun!
These videos are superbly informative, and really well presented - thank you for sharing your knowledge in such an entertaining way! 😀
To me, the real question is, what's the first Batman story that CAN'T be E2 Batman. I suggest it's the same issue widely acknowledged as the first E1 Superman story, The Super-Key to Fort Superman, appearing in Action Comics #241, in June of 1958. Most Batman stories up to that point, unless there's like a reference to WWII or something, could have happened to either Batman.
I met Moldoff at a sci-fi convention in the '90s! He preferred his comics and the Adam West Batman over the Tim Burton Batman, which he considered "too violent," lol! I've been on cruise ships with my mother. They're not so bad. Last one had strippers!! My mom and aunts didn't like that one, lol! As for Golden Age vs. Silver Age disambiguation, I would have drawn the former like Batman the Animated Series, only I would put Batman and Robin in jodhpurs, given them dieselpunk tech and film noir/jive dialogue. The Silver Age would start with a rockabilly Batman and Robin, with an atompunk Batcave and Gotham. Think "The Jetsons meet the Thunderbirds," lol. The '60s get even wilder! Two words: Hippie Robin! The art gets psychedelic. The Dynamic Duo have to put down riots, save activists and politicians from sniper fire, actresses from cults and rock stars from plane crashes and drug overdoses, lol. Stargates would have helped, lol! Those were the "good old days," lol! 😆😁😅🤣😂😎🤓
Ah, the Silver Age. The second best age of comic books, but certainly the most fucking fun.
Incidentally, I personally separate the Golden and Silver (and Silver and Bronze) ages to the events surrounding the creation of the Comics Code Authority in the mid '50s (and therefore loosening of the code with Marvel's publication of an anti-drug story in Amazing Spider-Man 96-98 in the early '70s). Of course, these are loose, idiosyncratic delineations that no one else I've mentioned them to agrees with, nor is anyone obligated to--the point is if you've read the comics around that time, you can make your own distinctions of when one age became another!
Letting a random person be Batman for a day might be the absolute worst idea ever.
The dividing line on Superman comes to be a bit harder. I seem to recall hearing that, at first, the writers and editors weren't even sure there were a Golden Age Big Three on Earth-2, but at least Superman and Wonder Woman played roles in WW2, and if E-1 Wondy was origined then, E-2 had to exist. Batman just seemed to kind of follow since he had appeared in JSA with Supes. Then you had E-2 Dick donning a new costume in the mid-60's (goofy, but kind of Nightwing-esque in retrospect) which meant there had certainly been a Batman, now retired and serving as Gordon's successor as CGPD. However, E-2 Superman himself didn't appear as a distinct and separate character until 1969! He was almost silent and didn't have a real personality then and didn't even show true signs of aging just yet - he merely had the Golden Age costume and sang at the funeral of Dinah Drake's husband (before Dinah was separated out to have her mother being the GA version). As someone else mentioned here, Superboy is also an odd dividing line. On his 10th Anniversary, Superman's origins were retold in an issue (V1/48 of his own book, IIRC) but with a few oddities. It wasn't until the year after that Superman himself learned of his origins (a version of events later confirmed to be E2) and despite Superboy's recent debut, no mention of a boyhood career. It seems like, when Superboy first showed up, his stories were almost 'imaginary', just an extended series of What If? It was only several years after, when an adult Lana showed up in Superman stories, that we finally confirmed this as part of his past - and has become one of the prime dividing lines between E1 and E2. Many years after that, they had a Superboy story wherein he time/space traveled to E2 and met young Kal-L and convinced him to be a hero instead of a circus strongman! So besides the other issues with the If/When of the Big 3's dividing line for the Earths, there is the idea that the 60's/70's/80's and Infinite Crisis JSA/E2 versions we met and remember were not and were never their actual Golden Age selves, just modern approximations.
Yes, I like to talk. Why do you ask?
One reason the dividing line on Superman is harder is because there were actually at least three Earths involved. Earth-2-A was created because the transition from the Daily Star to the Daily Planet actually occurred early in the Golden Age, so this became the defacto setting for any Superman story published in the 40's an early 50's that shows or mentions the Daily Planet.
After the multiverse was established, there were stories set on both Earth-2 and Earth-1 that referenced Superman #76, which means the story is canon to both Earths despite predating the multiverse. But in the case of Earth-2, the only way the story works is as a flashback that takes place a short time before the start of WW2.
@@Supertron1 There are things like that which mean that E2 Superman was not precisely the GA Superman, because later stories set in that continuity - mostly the 'Mr. & Mrs. Superman' series in 'Superman Family'- kept the Daily Star, and even had Clark, not Perry, replacing 'George Taylor' as Editor In Chief. One neat little tidbit these stories threw in: While guests at the wedding of Bruce and Selina, the Kents also met the reformed and restored Two-Face, aka Harvey Kent, though apparently no relation to the Kent family of Smallville. They even intro'd a version of Lana - albeit Clark only knew about her father, a scientist who left Smallville when the town did not experience the boom E1's did because of Superboy.
@@shoresean1237 It's kinda weird because retroactively the setting shifts from E2 to E2A with the introduction of the Daily Planet in Action Comics #23 (1940). But the Mr. & Mrs. Superman series frequently indicated that the events seen in GA stories published after that also happened on E2. For example, the E2 Superman's base was the Secret Citadel, introduced in Superman #17 (1942). And the one-off armored villain Metalo from World's Finest #6 (1942) made a second and final appearance in Superman Family #217 (1982).
I'm guessing whoever established that E2 Clark remained working at the Daily Star either didn't know the Daily Planet was introduced so early in the GA, or they were trying to retcon it.
@@Supertron1 I wonder what Roy Thomas has to say about this. He was deep inside this kind of lore.
This cruise story is amazing on so many levels, but my brain is just on a loop of how you have to change like... Basically nothing of this meet cute for the Clark/Bruce fic version of this story. And man I'd read the hell out of said fic.
Also thank you as always Steve for asking questions we don't *need* to answer, but sure are a fun time to poke at.
That fic exists. It was written by Mithen, think it's on AO3.
I made a comment last week about inconsistencies were the place for fun fan theories to be born, didn’t know you had been working on a video along similar veins. Nice 😊.
Michigan State University has an incredible comicbook trove in its Special Collections at its library. I got to read Flash #123 and so many classic stories there.
It's the yellow oval that cinches it. Every time. :)
Except for all those stories when batman appears with the Justice League sans his yellow oval, of course....
Love the "post-credits" scene.
i'm sorry? was bruce wayne not wealthy in 1952? a millionaire has to share a room with struggling journalist? is slumming it part of bruce's vacation also? the cruise ship wasn't enough?
First appearance of the Fastball Special? Also, it's pretty interesting that Martian Manhunter was a shapeshifting alien HERO at a time when this concept in film was used to demonize anything from socialists to migrants to Jews to whatever else.
13:00 that and it feels like it has gay undertones un how it's two men sharing a room and they're both hiding basically the same secret.
Comics (and Star Trek) feel like modern folklore. Needs of the story are paramount; inconsistencies are like wonderfully different oral-history traditions. Thanks, Steve, for your videos and helping me think more clearly about why I enjoy the tale over the canon. :-)
"The word 'folklore' in English is bandied about relatively freely. It is a concept people tend to feel they understand---until they try to explain it. [The difficult definition] has changed a great deal since 1846, when [it was introduced into English by Wm. J.] Thoms to describe 'the manners, customs, observances, superstitions, ballads, proverbs, &c., of the olden time.' ... It includes verbal folklore, everything from myth, legends, and folktales to jokes, anecdotes, memorates, and even slang. ... One aspect of folklore is ... 'traditionality[,]' ... referring to behaviors and beliefs that are infused with special meaning or value in the 'present' because of a sense of continuity with the 'past' and also with the 'future.' ... The process by which folklore operates is a kind of tug-of-war between two forces---the conservative pull of the past versus the immediate pull of present (and future) needs. Within this process there is also a contrast between the communal voice ... developed over ... years and the innovative[,] personal voice of the individual performer or participant. It is out of this tension between conservatism and dynamism that the folklore of the present is shaped and experienced." (M. D. Foster, "The Book of Yõkai," 11 [Univ. Cal. Press, 2015])
Wow.. such a cool vid!!.. thanks for giving this to the world!!!
Firstly I would love to see a comic wherein Superman is a cosmetic surgeon, as a hobby in his spare time. He could visit Batman and at some point he would meet both Scar Face and the Joker and offer his services. Since both of them kinda turned into supervillains because of disfigurements, it would be funny if they then went back to a past (sane) life or even decided that crime wasn’t for them… until getting into accidents and becoming the opposite characters as they once were. Lol
Second, wouldn’t our cruise ship goers only realized that ‘someone’ on board was Bat/Super man… along with everyone else on the ship? I mean if they realized who the others secret identity was by say voice matching and the limited number of people to listen to, others would to.
Finally wouldn’t they have just looked for any location Superman couldn’t X-ray through if they couldn’t see the jewels? I mean Superman could scan the ship for objects that are likely hollow and see if any block his power. But also he has super hearing and can make loud noises such as a thunder clap (a literal clapping of his hands with full strength) and yelling (that was a thing he uses once), to essentially echolocate the items. O and I doubt a high voltage repairman would have on his boots on vacation. You would expect a fireman to take his fireproof suit with him?
Yes agreeably about when the Batman Switched Earths there are really 2 Earth-1 Continuities as we even see in Superman & Batman World's Funnest aka Superman & Batman World Funniest. Because of The Separation of The Silver Age and The Bronze Age So if you read The Amazing Heroes Batman Issue you'll see how it's even said That The Who's who entry of The Earth-1 Batman debuting in Detective Comics #327 really ought to be corrected and meaning coining this one as The B.A. Batman and The S.A. Batman between this entry and The G.A.Batman.
Batman wasn't wearing the yellow insignia during early issues of Justice League, It's possible earth one stories after Flash debut was Brainiac first appearance in 1958 ending Supermans adventures as 1950's Superboy.
I am not huge comic book fan, never got into them. So of I say something taboo here please forgive me.
What if the different stories in a single book (say Detective Comics 225) come from different Earths?
Like batman for a day could be Earth2 while Martian Manhunter is Earth1.
Entirely possible. Like I said, all the attempts to determine what the early Earth-Two/Earth-One appearances of various characters are, are acts of modern reinterpretation. So, maybe it would make sense to some fans to assign a random issue in the early '50s to Earth-One, while the rest of that title's run would remain set on Earth-Two for awhile.
12:30 This sounds like a set up to a very saucy fanfiction story
Steve, you're having way too much fun with these videos. 😁👍
That last bit with sups and bats is how I see them two acting with one another on a day to day with nothing going on or taking some time off 🤣
That issue of Superman that led to the World's Finest teamups was actually referred to when they introduced the team as ongoing. Then a later issue flashbacked (or should I say Flashpoint?) to an earlier meeting before they learned each others identities. Both stories were reprinted in the same World's Finest 80 Page Giant! One thing I think all fans can agree on is both Earth One and Earth Two Batman shared some of the same adventures on their respective worlds! I'll also add as additional evidence that a "New Look" Batman story showed that Batman did not always have the yellow circle on his chest as a criminal who tried after leaving jail to impersonate Batman was tripped up because of that detail. Also it was the Earth 2 Batman was in the JSA and the Earth 1 Batman in the Justice League that was founded in 1959. Clearly at least some of the stories from 1959 were featuring the Earth 1 character even in his solo series. I'd guess the 1951 was the last of the Earth 2 only stories since that was the last year of the JSA. By the next year Batman and Superman of Earth 2 met. Seems to me as clean cut as it can get since the JLA origin story (another flashback) had Martian Manhunter commenting on Batman and Superman teaming up a lot. Some of those solo stories from 1952 (and earlier?) featured the Earth 1 Batman, some featured the Earth 2 original and some of these stories were common to both though details might vary in later retellings AKA The Untold Legend Of The Batman!
Excellent work.
You see the division between Earth 1 and 2 makes total sense right up until you start thinking about it for more than a single second. Like trying to balance on something - the moment you notice it's all over.
It's easy to place those characters whose stories were no longer published as on Earth 2. But continuing characters are a fun problem as you pointed out.
For Wonder Woman, for me, its when Queen Hippolyta became a blonde as the transition to Earth 1 stories.
For Aquaman, it's when his origin changed from his dad using his baby son for experiments and giving him superpowers to the origin of his mother being a queen from the mythical Atlantis, making him the rightful king to Atlantis' throne.
Green Arrow's original origin was he was a rich collector of native American artifacts and he trained himself to use their weapons, excelling in the use of the bow, so Earth 2. Now Earth 1's origin is him being a millionaire playboy being washed overboard from a yacht and landing on a deserted island, creating a bow and trick arrows to survive.
Then we have fun folks like Captain Comet who first appeared in 1951 and his stories ran 1954 and then he vanished until the 70s, when he came back from space became the hero/punching bag for the Secret Society of Super-Villains. So he appeared at the end of the Golden Age/start of the short lasting Atomic Age. Was this on Earth 2. Or ... was he the very first Earth 1 superhero, appearing 20 years before the Earth 1 Superman and Batman? His SSoSV first appearance said he had been gone from Earth for 20 years and due to his mutant abilities, he hadn't aged a bit.
Then we have Zatara the Magician. He first appeared along side Superman in Action Comics #1, even had a solo cover or two and lasted as a backup character into the mid-50s. So Earth 2. But ... in the 60s, we are introduced to his daughter Zatanna who is looking for her father. Clearly Earth-1. Like most of the others above, two of them? Earth 1's Zatara not being as famous or having as long as a crime-fighting career?
How about the Vigilante, the western clothed one, not the later ones? Also Action Comics #1 and lasting until the mid-50s. Earth 2. But I think it was a JLA comic that had him co-starring. First appearance of an Earth 1 Vigilante?
Fun stuff to think about.
This is something that I've always wondered about, so thank you.
RIP Neal Adams....
Isn't The Batman supposed to take place on Earth 2? I can't wait for the sequel when Zoe Kravitz turns out to have had amnesia after getting hit on the head and she's really just a mild mannered pet store owner.
Simply having a minuscule, stealth-applicable device to hijack the brain’s motion is one thing, but using lead _solely over the spot it was placed_ is hilarious to me. Our brains let radio signals through, and actually the water in our brains carries the radio waves even stronger than air. (Fun fact, if you’re too far away to lock your car, holding the key next to your head can increase its range by like 5-10 feet.) So they’d have needed a full-head helmet - totally viable with the cowl, but Robin would’ve still been immobilised, it would just have gone through the side or back of his head rather than the front.
I really like the totally constructed for the payoff and nothing else “Batman For A Day”. Brought a grin to my face thinking about Bruce getting a reason to publicly “be Batman”. Making it accidental just amps-up the heightened reality of it all. It would be one thing, believability-wise, if he’d plotted that out specifically to preemptively seed counter-information as a deterrent against future identity leaks or something. But having it be seemingly happenstance is just like, proudly ignoring how obviously-contrived it all is, not trying to justify it at all. Makes it all the better.
Lastly, loving the inferential dig at other people complaining harder about desiring a completely “faithful to history” continuity and not just chilling out and enjoying every iteration for itself.
Even when I was little, I treated different iterations of the same story as their own thing. Sure I often mused about which was the “real” version but I never got too invested in it. I never understood why some people take what could be a fun thought experiment and turn it into a matter of heated argument and cultural/fandom gatekeeping. Even when I was 7, I witnessed it happening and never understood the appeal.
That joke with icebergs and the 747s killed me lol
I think the easiest way to explain it retroactively is that the "switch" happened in the first story you mentioned when the creative team, tone, and look of the book changed. And stories that make more sense to be set on earth 2 could retroactively be considered to take place in that universe instead of the universe they were intended to take place in when they were released.
It's not an exact science, but theres a clear shift in that first story and theres no reason that there has to be a hard "switch"
As everyone knows, the best way to get Superman to leave you alone is kidnap Lois Lane.
The most obvious answer is that each story was set in a different universe, until the Crisis storyline
Great video but the highlight was definitely the cruise slander. I fully support that
Can you show us on the video, where the cruise ship hurt you steve?
If parallel worlds are on the table, can hypertime be far behind? Ahead? Already happened, happening, will happen? Hypertime is confusing.
p.s. With regards to the skit at the end of the story, where does he get those wonderful toys? Seriously, I would like to know if those dolls are still available.
This channel is unbelievable! 🤣🤣🤣
plot twist: the birthmark is actually a scar incurred at a previous, unrelated key party.