I think it can be safely said that General Boulanger approached arms development with all the consideration and sobriety of Lord Flashheart barging into a convent.
Great video. I have a 1886 courtesy of a tour in Afghanistan (and yes it was brought back legally). It hangs in my living room and definitely has seen better days but makes a great conversation piece.
@Bloke on the Range, Not strictly on topic; but you video's have official cost me money, I am now the Proud owner of a numbers matching 1944 production k31. Have not fired it yet, but i am already impressed. Love all of your videos, Cant wait for the next installment of your straight pull Swiss Rifle Series! Take care!
Congrats! The bolt sleeve and the bolt body should be stamped with a code indicating what metal was used. In 1944 they experimented with chrome moly steel and they later found that the locking lugs on thpse were prone to cracking so they returned to using chrome nickel steel. It would be wise to check if your bolt sleeve is stamped CN (chrome-nickel) on CM (chrome-moly). Most CM bolt sleeves were swapped out for CN ones and they are easy to spot because the serial number is electropenciled on (the steel was too hard to retroactively stamp a serial number), and some, like my 1944 K31 have an original CN bolt sleeve (stamped matching serial number). If yours does have a CM bolt sleeve, all your need to do is swap it out for a CN bolt sleeve.
The Chap thanks for the information. I'll give it a look over when I get a chance. Parts are rare here, if I do need to swap the sleeve for shooting, what are my options. Here in the us, we don't really have the surplus parts support you do.
Nice vid. I got one recently from a local pawn shop for only $500 in good shape with a pristine bore and the only thing wrong was that the front sight blade was missing. I haven't shot it yet since I haven't been able to get the headspace checked but I am dying to so much that it's ridiculous.
For anyone in the US looking for 8mm lebel ammo Graf's has PPU in stock now. It's reloadable. I got lucky and got it 15% off, a tad over 1 USD per round shipped.
Was your rifle converted to the 1932N cartridge? If so that would explain the rather stiff mainspring. Without having one that wasn't converted (all in French inventory in the 1930s would have) I suspect it would be much easier to pull the cocking piece back by hand.
Yep, it's from 1888 but went through all the upgrades. I still doubt the original mainspring was so much weaker that it would make it substantially easier to recock the bolt, but perhaps a little. The shape is a throwback to the Chassepot which needed to be cocked manually with the cocking piece before you could open the bolt.
This is what I like this rifle and other rifles like it. Is what I like to call 'Compromise Rifle' This rifle was made out of compromises from other rifles. Just like the Gewehr 1888 Commission Rifle.
Please tell me that is not the only Berthier you got around? As after watching Ians series on the Berthier it seem untterly unnatural for a Berthier to not be in a pack of at lest threee different versions of itself at all times.
Very instructive video. I do have one in my WWI collection and so far have not had the nerve to shoot it. Have to buy a longer bit of string. I was aware the cartridge was essentially a necked down version of a preceding (black powder) cartridge. I didn't know the rest of the 'ancestry'. However, I did think the annular ring on the head to prevent magazine chain fires was a bit 'slap dash'. Rate of fire. Granting (and I understand your reservation) a soldier could fire eleven shots in nine seconds, reloading the tubular magazine would make up for the speed of discharge. Fired rounds per minute would not be all that impressive.
The US Navy was also ahead of the army for magazine rifles. Could it be that the navies, with small landing parties saw more advantage in fire power than the army who were all concerned with ammunition expenditure? I think navies tended to adopt machine guns earlier as well. For the same reason?
I think the landing party theory and the need to reload in small spaces made navies naturally look to repeaters first. Also they tended to be independent of the army for procurement and thus less bogged down by conservative old-school commanders. The French navy for example adopted the .44" pinfire revolver in 1858 whilst the army (cavalry) was still using M1822Tbis single shot .69" percussion pistols into the 1870/71 war. The navy also never adopted the Gras rifle, they used the Chassepot briefly and then switched to Spencer carbines imported in 1870/71.
It was pretty much a stop gap after the 70/71 war during which France had imported over 35000 Spencer carbines. After the war the army had no use for them since the upper echelons sniffed at the idea of repeating rifles for line infantry (like most countries at the time). Obviously the navy recognised their potential and snapped them up, parallel to developing the 1878 Krop.
The original bullet had a flat nose which posed no problem, with the introduction of the spitzer a groove was included in the base of the case between the rim edge and primer pocket in which the tip of the bullet behind would rest. The newer PPU brass have this feature.
Honestly I'd be willing to argue the Mosin 1891 is the last rifle of the old generation whose only real modern characteristic is smokeless cartridges. Box mags had been around prior and the general design of the rifle reeks of obsolescence--split bridge, short, straight bolt handle, rimmed cartridge, meant for use with the bayonet affixed, and completely devoid of ergonomics.
There's old irons yes, mostly it's rimfires which you need to be careful with as the firing pin/hammer nose ends up hitting the chamber edge which is bad for both.
It wasn't the French engineers fault though, it was that one general that comes in and takes over and then wanted to do everything his way and screw everybody else. You know that guy, the guy that gets hired on as the new supervisor and he comes in and changes everything in your department because he knows better than everyone else and ends up screwing everything up. Well that guy was put in charge of weapons development for the whole of France. So instead of the French taking their time and designing a truly fantastic rifle and taking their time with the process this new guy comes in and says that he wants a new rifle that can use smokeless powder within 6 months. So instead of taking their time the French engineers had to coble together that monstrosity in less than 6 months. Thus you get the Lebel 1886, instead of the Gewehr 1888, which was better in almost every way and only came out 18 months later. Edit- I wrote this comment before I watched any of your video so I guess I could have just kept watching...
@@revanjagergaming8714 It is not the shooting that is the butt of the jokes, not usually. Sometimes it is the guns, it's just because (whatever language) I am reminded of my schooldays by the way the hosts perform with so much humour. I won't shoot, but I think this show is fun.
I am trying to become a gunsmith but I also want to build replicas of rifles from this time period. I am currently trying to enroll in a gunsmithing school but I wonder if it would be better for me to go to engineering school if I want to build rifles. What would you suggest, since you seem like knowledgable fellows?
I went to university and got a BS in mechanical engineering. Then 30 years later went to gunsmithing school (Trinidad State Junior College). Gunsmithing school is great for learning how to fix and customize firearms. But is you want to build firearms from the ground up do as the Bloke said and study mechanical engineering, 3D CAD and machining.
I want to make a new manufacture Lebel with a better bolt design and then have a loading gate at the bottom of the receiver like American shotguns. And change how the front gaurd is held on. Y'know just for fun.
Alistair Shaw I plan on using the lebel receiver as a base, and then make all the improvements that I deem necessary. So what if it's not a lebel, it's a fun project gun.
Level adopted in 1886, smokeless 303 in 1891. Maths was never my strong point, but that in 5 years, not 10 and presumably some serious research was going on in that period.
the last 6 inches of the barrel will give you the accuracy, that's why shot out throats don't seem to affect it much. One here at auction sold for a surprisingly high amount though it was in almost mint condition. Years ago there was no demand for them and they sold cheaply. All of it goes up in price if not value.
The claim is that it's revolutionary that's stupid ,the rifle is a carry over from the 84 but it's powder was advanced the cartridge was simply a idea that Swiss had already started on earlier and the Austrians were already manufacturing for Portugal! Only revolution was smokeless powder! Reality check and the British and Germans would cancel it out in a year and half with the Lee Medford, and the 88 commission rifle
Jeezus boys, I can't see past two hipsters sitting on a lampshade couch fondling a French firearm! Maybe it's just my imagination that you haven't been to IKEA recently.
+The Chap I understand that as an Englishman you have a quasi-religious attachment to the jewel of Ceylon that is proper tea, but isn't that just semantics? Infusion is technically accurate, but tea is common usage. No hipster orders an herbal infusion, they order herbal tea, preferably organic and fairly traded (i.e. overpriced). No need to wet one's distressed, vintage jeans over it, though ;-)
Now you listen good my lad, there ain't nowt wrong with a good cup o good strong Yorkshire tea after a day in t'fields. In t'meantime the wife can sew new leather patches on the elbows of me cord jacket. Ipster jeans ain't no good fer muckin' out t'sty or fixin' t'Massey.
We are obviously not your thing, oh well, never mind, won't lose sleep over it. Plenty of other channels out there which might meet your particular tastes.
I think it can be safely said that General Boulanger approached arms development with all the consideration and sobriety of Lord Flashheart barging into a convent.
Great video. I have a 1886 courtesy of a tour in Afghanistan (and yes it was brought back legally). It hangs in my living room and definitely has seen better days but makes a great conversation piece.
"Ok, pretend this is longer than it is..."
That's what I told her, but she just wasn't going for it... Hahaha!
a tip: watch series on Flixzone. I've been using it for watching lots of of movies lately.
@Devon Nelson Definitely, I've been using Flixzone} for months myself :)
@Devon Nelson definitely, I have been watching on Flixzone} for since november myself :D
@Devon Nelson yup, I have been using Flixzone} for since november myself :D
@Bloke on the Range, Not strictly on topic; but you video's have official cost me money, I am now the Proud owner of a numbers matching 1944 production k31. Have not fired it yet, but i am already impressed. Love all of your videos, Cant wait for the next installment of your straight pull Swiss Rifle Series! Take care!
Congrats! The bolt sleeve and the bolt body should be stamped with a code indicating what metal was used. In 1944 they experimented with chrome moly steel and they later found that the locking lugs on thpse were prone to cracking so they returned to using chrome nickel steel. It would be wise to check if your bolt sleeve is stamped CN (chrome-nickel) on CM (chrome-moly). Most CM bolt sleeves were swapped out for CN ones and they are easy to spot because the serial number is electropenciled on (the steel was too hard to retroactively stamp a serial number), and some, like my 1944 K31 have an original CN bolt sleeve (stamped matching serial number). If yours does have a CM bolt sleeve, all your need to do is swap it out for a CN bolt sleeve.
The Chap thanks for the information. I'll give it a look over when I get a chance. Parts are rare here, if I do need to swap the sleeve for shooting, what are my options. Here in the us, we don't really have the surplus parts support you do.
Always look forward to y'all's videos keep up the good work!
French said check out our new smokeless powder rifle. Germany said "Holdzen mein bier son."
"Scheisse, schnell zum Reissbrett Kumpels!" was more likely, and then they calmed down and took their time about it.
Nice vid. I got one recently from a local pawn shop for only $500 in good shape with a pristine bore and the only thing wrong was that the front sight blade was missing.
I haven't shot it yet since I haven't been able to get the headspace checked but I am dying to so much that it's ridiculous.
Just shoot it! I have never ever checked headspace on any gun I have ever owned.
For anyone in the US looking for 8mm lebel ammo Graf's has PPU in stock now. It's reloadable. I got lucky and got it 15% off, a tad over 1 USD per round shipped.
Was your rifle converted to the 1932N cartridge? If so that would explain the rather stiff mainspring. Without having one that wasn't converted (all in French inventory in the 1930s would have) I suspect it would be much easier to pull the cocking piece back by hand.
Yep, it's from 1888 but went through all the upgrades. I still doubt the original mainspring was so much weaker that it would make it substantially easier to recock the bolt, but perhaps a little. The shape is a throwback to the Chassepot which needed to be cocked manually with the cocking piece before you could open the bolt.
This is what I like this rifle and other rifles like it. Is what I like to call 'Compromise Rifle' This rifle was made out of compromises from other rifles. Just like the Gewehr 1888 Commission Rifle.
all these VIEWS and not so many thumbs up??? Just forgetting??? These guys are good so remember THUMBS UP!!!!!
Please tell me that is not the only Berthier you got around? As after watching Ians series on the Berthier it seem untterly unnatural for a Berthier to not be in a pack of at lest threee different versions of itself at all times.
So far yes, but working on some long rifles. There are K98ks a plenty but French (and British) WW1 and WW2 guns are not at all common in CH.
Yes, but Ian is Gun Jesus, and he accomplished the Miracle of the Berthier and loaves.
Very instructive video. I do have one in my WWI collection and so far have not had the nerve to shoot it. Have to buy a longer bit of string.
I was aware the cartridge was essentially a necked down version of a preceding (black powder) cartridge. I didn't know the rest of the 'ancestry'. However, I did think the annular ring on the head to prevent magazine chain fires was a bit 'slap dash'.
Rate of fire. Granting (and I understand your reservation) a soldier could fire eleven shots in nine seconds, reloading the tubular magazine would make up for the speed of discharge. Fired rounds per minute would not be all that impressive.
The US Navy was also ahead of the army for magazine rifles. Could it be that the navies, with small landing parties saw more advantage in fire power than the army who were all concerned with ammunition expenditure? I think navies tended to adopt machine guns earlier as well. For the same reason?
I think the landing party theory and the need to reload in small spaces made navies naturally look to repeaters first. Also they tended to be independent of the army for procurement and thus less bogged down by conservative old-school commanders. The French navy for example adopted the .44" pinfire revolver in 1858 whilst the army (cavalry) was still using M1822Tbis single shot .69" percussion pistols into the 1870/71 war. The navy also never adopted the Gras rifle, they used the Chassepot briefly and then switched to Spencer carbines imported in 1870/71.
Thanks. I did not know the French navy used Spencers.
It was pretty much a stop gap after the 70/71 war during which France had imported over 35000 Spencer carbines. After the war the army had no use for them since the upper echelons sniffed at the idea of repeating rifles for line infantry (like most countries at the time). Obviously the navy recognised their potential and snapped them up, parallel to developing the 1878 Krop.
I knew about the 1878 Krop. I have never read of the French navy using the Spencers. Again; Thanks.
Hazard a guess Navies have a bigger budget as well...innovation is more expensive
Didn't the French navy maintain the Chassepot and skipped the Gras to the Kropatschek?
Yes indeed, which is surprising considering the potential damp problems with the ammo in a naval environment.
Who is holding whose gun there?
Is it possible to load 10 cartridges into by loading the mag full, putting a round in the transporter, then in the chamber and close the bolt?
well thanks for the quick response, and very good vid btw, subbed :)
Poilus with Lee rifles? That would have been interesting.
I didn't get a good look at the end of the projectile when you showed it, but wouldn't pointy bullets in a tube magazine be "unsafe"?
The original bullet had a flat nose which posed no problem, with the introduction of the spitzer a groove was included in the base of the case between the rim edge and primer pocket in which the tip of the bullet behind would rest. The newer PPU brass have this feature.
Ah yes, so we did! I have yet to come across any period anecdote relating to a mag explosion. Perhaps elf'n'safety simply had concerns.
How does the main spring compare to the G3 charging handle?
Amongst the early rifles, there was also the Krag-Jorgensen 1889.
Honestly I'd be willing to argue the Mosin 1891 is the last rifle of the old generation whose only real modern characteristic is smokeless cartridges. Box mags had been around prior and the general design of the rifle reeks of obsolescence--split bridge, short, straight bolt handle, rimmed cartridge, meant for use with the bayonet affixed, and completely devoid of ergonomics.
What do you know of 8mm Lebel ammunition made by Kynoch. Bullets are flat nosed not pointed.
I would love to read into his history, could you post a link somewhere because i have no idea at all on how to spell his name haha
thank you. would have never spelled it that way. French is such a weird language...
Is it safe to dry-fire bolt actions? What about revolvers?
There's old irons yes, mostly it's rimfires which you need to be careful with as the firing pin/hammer nose ends up hitting the chamber edge which is bad for both.
So a Mauser-action should be fine to dry fire?
Click away!
-Clicking Intensifies-
Thanks for the help Chap.
I'm the first to get to say 'very good video'!
It wasn't the French engineers fault though, it was that one general that comes in and takes over and then wanted to do everything his way and screw everybody else. You know that guy, the guy that gets hired on as the new supervisor and he comes in and changes everything in your department because he knows better than everyone else and ends up screwing everything up. Well that guy was put in charge of weapons development for the whole of France. So instead of the French taking their time and designing a truly fantastic rifle and taking their time with the process this new guy comes in and says that he wants a new rifle that can use smokeless powder within 6 months. So instead of taking their time the French engineers had to coble together that monstrosity in less than 6 months. Thus you get the Lebel 1886, instead of the Gewehr 1888, which was better in almost every way and only came out 18 months later. Edit- I wrote this comment before I watched any of your video so I guess I could have just kept watching...
The perils of commenting before you've actually watched the video :D
Yup I really need to quit doing that lol. Love your videos keep up the good work mate.
I have worked with and for the 'spiritual' descendant of the General. The one who has no clue reality doesn't cater to his whim.
@@revanjagergaming8714 It is not the shooting that is the butt of the jokes, not usually. Sometimes it is the guns, it's just because (whatever language) I am reminded of my schooldays by the way the hosts perform with so much humour.
I won't shoot, but I think this show is fun.
Could someone please explain the connection between bread and Boulanger?
bread and Baker
Adamast thanks
I am trying to become a gunsmith but I also want to build replicas of rifles from this time period. I am currently trying to enroll in a gunsmithing school but I wonder if it would be better for me to go to engineering school if I want to build rifles. What would you suggest, since you seem like knowledgable fellows?
TwentythreePER be a true psychopath and do both ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I went to university and got a BS in mechanical engineering. Then 30 years later went to gunsmithing school (Trinidad State Junior College). Gunsmithing school is great for learning how to fix and customize firearms. But is you want to build firearms from the ground up do as the Bloke said and study mechanical engineering, 3D CAD and machining.
Good thing i couldn't sleep.
I thought everyone knew that it was just the fact that the lebel fired the smokeless round "first"
Whom of you is the musician? Or is it one of the children?
The Chap better than nothing I guess.
I want to make a new manufacture Lebel with a better bolt design and then have a loading gate at the bottom of the receiver like American shotguns. And change how the front gaurd is held on. Y'know just for fun.
check out the "remington keene" then
PoppaSquat Another great rifle, thanks for the tip.
Such a rifle would be pointless and stupid, but I'd buy one in an instant.
TheDandyMan that wouldnt be a lebel then
Alistair Shaw I plan on using the lebel receiver as a base, and then make all the improvements that I deem necessary. So what if it's not a lebel, it's a fun project gun.
Why did it take the British almost a decade after the French to adopt smokeless? Was compressed black powder only marginally worse in performance?
Level adopted in 1886, smokeless 303 in 1891. Maths was never my strong point, but that in 5 years, not 10 and presumably some serious research was going on in that period.
Fix baguettes... sorry, I meant fix bayonets!
usually found in excellent condition, never fired and dropped once. Only an old joke. French fought hard and well.
I wish I could find one in excellent condition! Mine is battered but still shoots fairly well despite having a muzzle section like a wizard's sleeve.
the last 6 inches of the barrel will give you the accuracy, that's why shot out throats don't seem to affect it much. One here at auction sold for a surprisingly high amount though it was in almost mint condition. Years ago there was no demand for them and they sold cheaply. All of it goes up in price if not value.
Will Mathieson I heard that joke many times...but it was about Italian rifles from WWII
If it was truly a first and a world beater the French military wouldn't have been handicapped by 8mm lebel for decades afterwards.
The claim is that it's revolutionary that's stupid ,the rifle is a carry over from the 84 but it's powder was advanced the cartridge was simply a idea that Swiss had already started on earlier and the Austrians were already manufacturing for Portugal! Only revolution was smokeless powder! Reality check and the British and Germans would cancel it out in a year and half with the Lee Medford, and the 88 commission rifle
the french are renowned for fashion and other design but their arms designs so so awkward, buttugly really
Jeezus boys, I can't see past two hipsters sitting on a lampshade couch fondling a French firearm! Maybe it's just my imagination that you haven't been to IKEA recently.
The nearest Ikea is a long way away. Just be glad we don't have enough hair between us to have man-buns XD
+The Chap, but you can still do the oversized mugs of herbal tea :-)
Tea is tea from tea bushes, anything else is an infusion old boy.
+The Chap I understand that as an Englishman you have a quasi-religious attachment to the jewel of Ceylon that is proper tea, but isn't that just semantics? Infusion is technically accurate, but tea is common usage. No hipster orders an herbal infusion, they order herbal tea, preferably organic and fairly traded (i.e. overpriced). No need to wet one's distressed, vintage jeans over it, though ;-)
Now you listen good my lad, there ain't nowt wrong with a good cup o good strong Yorkshire tea after a day in t'fields. In t'meantime the wife can sew new leather patches on the elbows of me cord jacket. Ipster jeans ain't no good fer muckin' out t'sty or fixin' t'Massey.
love zee fake flench akzents
Ach du lieber, ein stuck scheise!
Sendung, Thema oder alles?
Also +Bloke on the Range and +The Chap kann nicht an euch liegen, muss also die Bleischleuder sein.
The bloke & the chap are of the highest british standard, shipshape and bristol fashion! What pray tell are "bleischleuder"?
Lead slinger
drawrings lol
Strangely uncomfortable to watch.
Wha does BotR stand for?? Boring tool review like AVE's BOLTR ( BOring Lame Tool Reviews)?
We are obviously not your thing, oh well, never mind, won't lose sleep over it. Plenty of other channels out there which might meet your particular tastes.
Yet Federico, here you are watching their video. The term tool applies well to you it would appear.
+Federico Ruffini Surely you can do better than _that_
Boring? What? Like an AR?
oh you're that feller who does vids on tfb tv, guess i better subscribe then