i asked a couple of young missionaries from the of church of latter day saints, if they were a god would they allow slavery and genocide. They both said no, I then told them, they are already greater than their god. They really did not like that statement.
I re-read Hitch's book "god is not Great" every so often to remind myself of the craziness of religion in general. Misterdeity you nailed it in this post.
Lucky. All I have to do is try to live through a single day without constant panic attacks from the insane Irish Catholic cult my family is in and forced me to live in until 25. Whew. It’s a good thing there’s a better Pope now it’s making so much difference-oh wait...
What always struck me as informative of a xian's values is encapsulated in _Pascal's Wager._ They are actually urging you to lie to their God, like He wouldn't even know. "It's better to fake belief than not", is the message I hear.
Most don't truly believe. if they did they wouldn't go to doctors when ill, they'd pray and trust god to fix them and if they died they'd be jubilant about it
@@AdamYoudell My father, during an existential middle age crisis, from guilt after having committed adultery, joined the WWCoG, in 1968. He swallowed it whole. My personal experience about his God hit home for me when I was in the 9th grade, seriously ill for 9 weeks with pneumonia, and Dad merely got “an anointed cloth”, blessed by his minister, to lay on my forehead. That was the first crack in my relationship with my father. Mom had to threaten him with the sheriff if he didn’t call a doctor and take me to one. The wrath of God was nothing compared to my red-headed Mama! (He later decided the cloth didn’t work because I lacked faith; on second thought, that was probably what his minister told him to think…)
These are arguments I have tried to make to theists and apparently, they are wearing the "armor of faith". But that's the beauty of believing in make believe - you can make believe any excuse that suits you.
If Isaiah 45:7 isn't bad enough, try this on for size: _I gave them statutes that were not good and ordinances by which they could not live. I defiled them through their very gifts, in their offering up all their firstborn, in order that I might horrify them, so that they might now that I am the LORD._ -- Ezekiel 20:25-26 So, not only did Yahweh load the deck, he KNEW he loaded it with the sole intention of frustrating his creation. If this god existed, he would be the dick to end all dicks.
Brian, as more of your videos keep popping up in my feed (hail the almighty algorithm!) over time, one thing that amazes me, is how you’ve managed to keep finding new ways to present this information. Different skits, different formats, different presentations, but always the same seriousness + delightful sarcasm.
This is a great series. I also enjoy less pop-up text. On your other videos I find myself reading and laughing at those and having to re-watch because I missed the point. But, don't stop them. They're lots of fun.
Christian: God is good. Atheist: By what standard? Christian: Objectively. Atheist: So god is subject to a standard greater than his own. Christian: Um, no. Whatever god does is good by definition. Atheist: So "god is good" is a vacuous tautology. Christian: Um, no. God's a really great guy. Atheist: Not according to the bible. Christian: Only according to human morality. Objectively, god is good. Oh, shit.
I shut down the "morality is objective" argument a bit quicker, using only a single response... "For something to be objective, is must be measurable. Show me a unit of morality and I'll admit that it's objective. Otherwise it's an abstract concept, which makes it subjective."
Hmm. That's a different sense of "objective". I'm using it to mean "existing whether we can know about it". Your sense is more like "knowable". I'm not aware of any unit scales measuring saltiness, bendability, or resemblence to Colonal Sanders, but that doesn't mean they're "abstract concepts", or a unit of morality couldn't be invented.
A unit of morality could be invented IF morality were something which can be measured. For instance, length is objective. We can objectively measure it, and all who measure a given length are going to come to the same conclusion, regardless of what unit they use to measure it, because units that measure the same thing can be converted between. Morality however is not something we can examine. It is not something that can be measured, detected, or otherwise even proven, objectively, to exist. We can objectively prove that many animals, even primitive ones like fish, behavior in a way that comports with the human concept of morality (such as piranhas not killing eachother even in a feeding frenzy) but that doesn't mean it is objective. Absent the ability to measure morality, either as a substance (like atoms) or a property (like length), any argument that it's objective is thinly veiled sophistry.
_"IF morality were something which can be measured."_ Is it worse to murder than to steal? It is less bad to tell a comforting lie to one who needs comfort than to hid a million dollars in an offshore account? You've just compared levels of (im)morality. From which it's a short step to put the items on a scale, assign numbers, and invent a unit. You and I may disagree about whether kicking a dog is 3.7 or 5.1 on the scale, but as you helpfully point out, data for the scale is available in the natural ("objective") world. You may say there are no detectable facts in the world corresponding to human moral judgements. Perhaps, but firstly, these judgements are remarkably consistent, making morality at the least studyable as a branch of psychology. And second, there are no objective colours, only sense-impressions, most of which don't correspond to specific wavelength of EM radiation. Yet the study of colour perception exists.
Stefan *Is it worse to murder than to steal?* The fact that we can subjectively assign how immoral an action is does not mean that morality can be objectively measured. We both agree that murder is worse than stealing, but how much worse? Twice as bad? Three times as bad? One and a half times? 8.72 times as bad? Show me the means with which we can measure it. *You and I may disagree about whether kicking a dog is 3.7 or 5.1 on the scale, but as you helpfully point out, data for the scale is available in the natural ("objective") world.* And then you have people who eat dogs. In Korea (North or South, doesn't matter) there is a belief that torturing dogs before they're killed makes the meat taste better. *Perhaps, but firstly, these judgements are remarkably consistent* Not really. As I just demonstrated, some people willingly kick dogs, and do things that you would probably find even worse. You ever seen people do this to a dog and think it's a good thing? watch?v=_ZVQjgGb4RQ Show me how it's objectively immoral to torture a dog. Just because the both of us agree that it's highly immoral to do that doesn't mean it's objectively highly immoral to do so. Afterall, I just demonstrated that there are people who do not think it's immoral to do so. Suppose everyone agrees that chocolate icecream is tasty. That doesn't mean that tastiness is objective, nor does it mean that chocolate icecream is necessarily objectively tasty. The popularity of an opinion does not magically make opinions into objective truths. Show me how we can measure morality in an objective fashion. *And second, there are no objective colours, only sense-impressions, most of which don't correspond to specific wavelength of EM radiation.* Mmm, not really. Colors are wave lengths within the visible spectrum of light, and therefore they can be objectively measured. We have objective definitions for colors. Mind you, the boundaries between the colors, those are subjective, but we can objectively demonstrate that color exists, and we can objectively measure color. Color is so objective that there are both digital and analog sensors for it www.digikey.com/products/en/sensors-transducers/color-sensors/539 Show me how we can measure morality in an objective fashion. Show me a device which can detect morality. You can't, because morality is subjective.
regarding the killing of all egyptian first born you forgot 3 really interesting parts of the story that also tell us a lot about him: 1)god has purposefully made pharaoh's heart harden to moses's request. taking away his free will completely, and actively forcing the outcome of the killing of egyptian firstborns, and that was just the 10'th plague! 2)god commanded the hebrews to smear goat blood on their door frames, so that he will know to skip that house. i really don't see how this fits with god being all knowing, but let's assume there was somebody who didn't have goat's blood, what then? did he kill the hebrew firstborns that were in an unmarked house? 3)in the conversation with the burning bush, god specifically tells moses to outright lie to pharaoh, telling him he only wants the hebrew slaves to be allowed to have a 3 day festival in the desert to worship god and give him sacrifices. this demonstrates that god has no qualms about lying. interestingly enough i have just a few days ago created a post in an atheist-theist discussion group, asking how can theists have the confidence that god isn't lying to them, even assuming that everything in the bible is god's own word. some commenters have brought up various examples in the bible of god lying. The most obvious of which is god telling adam and eve that eating the fruit will kill them. the bible *starts off* with a massive lie by god. another example is when some prophet, i believe it was samuel, was told by god to go to king saul, and tell him that god is displeased with him and wants to replace him (with david), samuel told god that saul would simply kill him on the spot, so god told samuel to lie to saul that he is simply there to make a sacrifice to god so as to not raise his suspicion. this facebook group is an israeli one, so all theists and atheists in the group (including me) are using the original hebrew, rather than any translation, so even stupid "mistranslation" arguments are invalid.
I didn't know there was an "original" bible. I was under the impression that it's all translation of a translation of a translation with edits made every time the clergy felt like something in it needed a tweak. And that perhaps the oldest version was Greek? As for the Adam and Eve story, if you think about it, eating the apple did kill them, since they would remain immortal had not eaten it. I'm sure any theist would tell you that immediately.
facebook.com/groups/daetahlka/ i'm not sure if it will be of any use to you though. it's basically just like any other atheist and theist discussion group where atheists love bashing theists, and theists love making really dumb arguments. it is more civil than most other groups of the sort, but at least there is actually an active participation by both orthodox jews, and atheists.
@@Czenda24 Would they have remained immortal? Not according to Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said: 'Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever.'
When I was a little kid hearing about Jericho and the conquest of Cannin, I always wondered "why didn't god send down an archangel to guard it or put up a magical barrier to prevent any other people from settling on it.
Just proselytized another convert to Mr Deity and this time I had the pleasure of binge watching season one with him. We both laughed our asses off. Your shtick still works ten years later. I must CONFESS I've been a little jealous of all those numerous innocent newbies who I introduce to your works knowing I can't ever experience the bliss of a new convert. However, this time I tried to be as pure and ignorant as a born again babe in an attempt to reach a similar rapture. Lordy Oh Lord LOL I achieved it! While your latest stuff has more philosophical sophistication and nuance your old work still demonstrates depth AND plays well ...congrats, Brian! I only regret that my old hard drive backup crashed and I lost season two. Then I loaned out the DVDs I bought one too many times and never got them back! Quel dommage! Now that I think about it, that means that I also lost your "Frost Nixon" parody too. QUEL QUEL DOMMAGE!
You mentioned something early that I have challenged theists on - when they say that bad things are necessary for the greater good, I ask them if they believe god is all-powerful. If they say yes, they have just lost, but they can't see it. One example I use is the purported conquest of Canaan. Why didn't god just make that land the harshest desert ever known to man? Absolutely uninhabitable until he brought the Jews there? And then when his people got there he could make the land fertile and green for them. No killing needed. The closest thing I got to a sensible answer (not very close) is that they would not have appreciated the gift if they didn't have to fight and sacrifice for it.
Why didn't Abraham attack and try to kill the angel that told him not to kill his son? God told him to kill his son so any being contradicting that should be of the devil.
Idaho Spud Woohoo!!! That’s such a nice comment. I really hate the thought of just repeating the same old thing others have presented. You made my fortnight!
@@misterdeity Don't despair. Even three years on this is still informing more people. The question I wonder is how it's taken this long to get recommended to me.
We'll never know if Abraham would have gone through with it. Could there have been a last moment hesitation? What would God have done? The assumption is that Abraham would have done it. But God could have raised Issac afterward or made his skin momentarily impenetrable. It would have made for a more impressive story. Also, why the test in the first place? Doesn't God already know Abraham's heart?
Yeah that last bit is the most important. If god already knew the outcome, there was no need for the test in the first place - ergo, he was merely toying with Abraham and Isaac.
Back in the day, I wondered if the rapture had already occurred and we were the ones left behind. With what's going on now a days (Pres. T in particular) it could be an explanation.
Also, if "God's character can never be known", or "God works in mysterious ways" (or whatever people say to justify their lack of definiteness), then why should we believe any preacher that claims to know how to interpret him?
BorlandC452 Really good point. That is the essence of the problem, isn’t it? These people will say God is a mystery and then tell you they know all about him and exactly what he wants (including his percentage). Wait... what?
I watched this video for the photo at 3:13. I continued watching because the picture of Abraham and Isaac at 4:27 was cool. I also liked how you kept changing shirts during the video. As Steve Allen used to say, "All seriousness aside..." Buehler, Buehler, anyone... And, here's a question for you: If we join hitch, do we hitch join? OK, what I wrote was just pure nonsense. :) I always like your videos, Mr. D.
In my version of the bible, god says he will kill _all_ the first born of Egypt - not just the sons. And he included all the animals in that plague too. Just because he’s always got it in for animals. Many paintings depicting that plague show babies and other infants dying but, the first-born in a family is likely to be the eldest possibly by a long way; my brother is the first born in our family and he’s in his fifties. So, all first-born would include the Pharaoh himself as the first-born of his own family.
I can say I believe. I can want to believe. But In real, honest to goodness truth, I cannot choose to believe anything. It seems that God should be smart enough to know that.
The rancher has a plan for his cattle. The plan is to feed them, care for them and then kill and eat them. I'm not sure the cattle would like the rancher's plan if they knew what it was.
Likewise for the shepherd and his flock, although the shepherd also fleeces their flock on a regular basis. Now where have I heard someone describe themselves as a shepherd and their audience as their flock...
Why would God create humans as in intermediate step for another species? Wouldn't he just be able to put the species here to begin with? Being all powerful and all?
Exactly. The small detail that has always bothered me is that God was angry when he threw Adam and Eve from Paradise, and when he almost destroyed his chosen people in the Sinai Desert, and when he destroyed Gomorrah, and so many other times. You have to be surprised to be truly angry. It makes no sense to be angry with Adam and Eve, who did exactly what God should have known they were going to do. But then, God decided to kill his own son, Christ, even before he created Adam and Eve. Otherwise, he could have created a more intelligent Adam and Eve. And he should have known that the coming of Christ would change nothing here on Earth. The whole Bible, Old and New Testament alike, sounds a lot like the Greek Tragedies, in which men and women follow a path to destruction without even knowing it, except that in the Bible the one following the path to destruction is God.
Remember, god set them up to fail on purpose, also they didn't sin. They had to eat from the tree to know the difference between good and evil so they couldn't have possibly known disobeying god was evil. He specifically NEEDED them to sin(even though they had no idea they were sinning)to get the whole story going. Also remember Cain went to another land to find a wife(where the fuck did all these other people come from?)
Does god care to fix the psychological damage done by his little tests, which supposedly he should already know the results of, and are therefore completely pointless by definition?
Another spot-on video, but I was so fascinated by the filming I had a hard time listening. Whether the backrounds are projected or actually there, you must be standing or sitting on some sort of giant lazy-susan type of platform. Can you reveal this cinematic trick or are we left to guess? Perhaps it's a demonic trick.
The room was filmed (or photographed) separately, and Brian's talk was shot against a green screen, and then the two visuals combined. Then it's easy to move the room image in the rear around.
All powerful can-do-anything-he-wants god wants more than anything to forgive everyone for a made up sin, but just can't unless he gets a deity pseudo-sacrificed in human form and in dramatic fashion. And he's the only deity that qualifies for the sacrifice. Such absurdity.
It's clear that religion is an idol that people worship. The more fervent the worship of their idol, the less they are able to tell the difference between right and wrong, as we can see from their words and actions.
Exactly! How can we know God is telling us the truth when we would never be able tell if he were lying to us? This alone means we can't be sure about anything God has supposedly told us about himself. God could be the devil, and we wouldn't know. So how can religion even be a thing? We would need some way to confirm/verify what we think about God with evidence in order to actually know it, 'faith' doesn't work when the other person could be a perfect liar.
This is how I elucidate the point, in logical form, to believers: If I am to believe the Christian God exists, I must also believe the Devil exists, so - 1. If the Devil exists, he will try to commit acts that are evil, and he will do so as much as he can. 2. One of the most evil acts (if not THE most evil act) that the Devil could commit is to fool people that he is in fact God; he must therefore be doing it now if he has not already done so. Then I pose them this question: How do you know you aren't actually worshipping the Devil in disguise? Nobody has ever given me a coherent answer.
It is the contradictory nature of Greek gods, sometimes benefiting humans, other times trying to destroy them, that seemed more realistic than than the supposedly all-loving God of the Bible.
Didn't know I was tuning in to a KIA commercial. I know monetization on YT is rough right now but \you're supposed to disclose that your video is sponsored!
EUREKA MOMENT! Eureka! I discovered a message from one of the graphics -- religion can be well described as "The Ministry of Silly Walks" ...all things can be know truly, Honoré, through our lords, and saviors of Monty Python.
God is such a perfectly good and all loving god that genocide is an act of love and goodness when he does it, or if it’s done in his name. Yet, “thou shalt not kill.” Hmm...smdh. God loves slavery and really doesn’t care much about rape, but you CAN’T under any circumstances, unless god really favors you (David) commit adultery. THAT would be horrible! Yep; that goodness and love for ya.
And a man can't marry his half-sister... "Cursed be he that lieth with his sister, the daughter of his father, or the daughter of his mother." - Deuteronomy 27:22 ...unless that man happens to be Abraham... "And yet indeed she is my sister; she is the daughter of my father, but not the daughter of my mother; and she became my wife." - Genesis 20:12 ...in which case... "And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed." - Genesis 12:2-3
I just go back to the idea that an All-Knowing, All-Good God would create people that He knows will make choices that will send them to hell. To knowingly create people He knows will go to Hell proves he is not All-Good (or, even slightly good, maybe Thursday morning). You make some very good points. An honest christian (with a reasonable brain) would find it difficult to refute your arguments. God is not good. The proof is in His book(s). Dossier? Brilliant. You are a very clever writer. You should have your own TV show.
If god cares about people then it can't be all knowing or all powerful. Why would such a being give a fart about anything in reality let alone people, individually or collectively. To paraphrase Star Trek, 'What does god need with [people]?'
Abraham's story today? No one believes it, he goes to jail, and his lawyer argues insanity. Same story in some old book written in weird old English? It's legit.
+misterdeity The comedy movie, "The Year One" sort of did that. There was a fairly significant segment of the film where Hank Azaria played Abraham, and it was hilarious. They also riffed on Cain and Abel. th-cam.com/video/Yv95HNhkdcw/w-d-xo.html Abraham sacrificing Isaac th-cam.com/video/-PdAhZjuHbU/w-d-xo.html Hilarious circumcision scene
I keep expecting modern day believers to respond "They were crazy but amen to their faith" when someone today kills or attempts to kill their children believing god told them to do so. Even strong believers find the act repugnant. They find the attempt repugnant. Yet Abraham is the perfect example of faith.
Exactly. Who was that woman? Susan something (Smith?), who killed her kids so that they would be safe with Jesus. Isn't that an amazing display of faith? And a great sacrifice to make for them? Apparently not. She's crazy and evil, but Abraham was great.
Let me run something by you real quick as it's been bouncing around in my noggin for a bit. Since the Bible has been revised so many times with many different versions, why haven't people removed the many bad/immoral passages during those revisions? Wouldn't that help their standpoint at least in a little in their mind?
TheGOOD Kyle You would think, right? But that shows the power of religious belief. There are prohibitions against doing just that in the Bible itself. And they take that shit seriously. Jefferson didn’t and created his own Bible leaving out the bad stuff. But Christians would rather defend that stuff because once you start questioning one part, look out!!! That whole facade may crumble.
Great content. I think the "How do you know God's not lying" argument is underused. Seems to me that it would cut the legs out from under a presuppositionalist's claim to knowledge pretty easily. I would get rid of the little side jokes, TBH. They seem to conflict with the tone of the rest of your video and make it seem like you're trying to be sarcastic and ironic when you're not.
I disagree. I think your content, questions, and points are by far the biggest draw for me. But you do your thing. Not gonna put me off in the slightest.
I agree with the final words. If the god of abraham is real, that would be truly awful. Part of my zeal in atheism is the fear is that monster may be real. As an atheist I must hold that a god may exist. After all, i cannot prove it doesnt. But if it did and it is the tribal thunder god of iron age, blood thirsty beaudions of the middle east, then we are all in great trouble. For even the rewards are horrible.
The God of Genesis is said to have created us in his own image. Then placed us in a garden of Eden and told us NOT to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. A moral sense is the knowledge of Good and evil. And God forbade us from having that knowledge after creating us in his own image, i.e. without knowledge of good and evil. This text alone proves that God, himself, MUST be amoral and our original sin was to CHOOSE to have moral agency. To know good from evil. In this sense God has no right to judge us because we are moral people and he is, by his own admission, amoral. The Bible then goes on to describe a God that is, undeniably, amoral. He creates Satan because he Amoral. He creates hell because he is amoral. He tortures the people he created knowing they would be damned because he is amoral. He toys with Jonah because he is amoral, floods the world to punish the people he created for being what he knew they would be, because he is amoral. The concept of God’s judgment is a non sequitur because, being amoral, he utterly lacks moral judgment. He creates souls to go onto babies he knows in advance will die in the womb, without any hope of washing away the stain of the original sin that he invented because we did exactly what he created us to do when he knowingly placed that tree in the garden.
i asked a couple of young missionaries from the of church of latter day saints, if they were a god would they allow slavery and genocide. They both said no, I then told them, they are already greater than their god. They really did not like that statement.
The message is the same yet, like a fine wine, so much better with time.
Thank you again, misterdeity sir.
another great video. I hope lots of believers see these videos, too!
1 John 4:8, God is love. Exodus 34:14, God is jealous. 1 Corinthians 13:4, Love is not jealous. DOES NOT COMPUTE.
Excellent. I'd never thought about the idea that the whole blind faith thing could be a test like Abraham with Isaac, that kinda blew my mind.
I re-read Hitch's book "god is not Great" every so often to remind myself of the craziness of religion in general. Misterdeity you nailed it in this post.
Lucky. All I have to do is try to live through a single day without constant panic attacks from the insane Irish Catholic cult my family is in and forced me to live in until 25. Whew. It’s a good thing there’s a better Pope now it’s making so much difference-oh wait...
What always struck me as informative of a xian's values is encapsulated in _Pascal's Wager._ They are actually urging you to lie to their God, like He wouldn't even know.
"It's better to fake belief than not", is the message I hear.
Most don't truly believe. if they did they wouldn't go to doctors when ill, they'd pray and trust god to fix them and if they died they'd be jubilant about it
*Stevo Devo*
With God, all things are possible, _doncha know?_ ; )
@@AdamYoudell My father, during an existential middle age crisis, from guilt after having committed adultery, joined the WWCoG, in 1968. He swallowed it whole. My personal experience about his God hit home for me when I was in the 9th grade, seriously ill for 9 weeks with pneumonia, and Dad merely got “an anointed cloth”, blessed by his minister, to lay on my forehead. That was the first crack in my relationship with my father. Mom had to threaten him with the sheriff if he didn’t call a doctor and take me to one. The wrath of God was nothing compared to my red-headed Mama! (He later decided the cloth didn’t work because I lacked faith; on second thought, that was probably what his minister told him to think…)
These are arguments I have tried to make to theists and apparently, they are wearing the "armor of faith". But that's the beauty of believing in make believe - you can make believe any excuse that suits you.
If Isaiah 45:7 isn't bad enough, try this on for size:
_I gave them statutes that were not good and ordinances by which they could not live. I defiled them through their very gifts, in their offering up all their firstborn, in order that I might horrify them, so that they might now that I am the LORD._
-- Ezekiel 20:25-26
So, not only did Yahweh load the deck, he KNEW he loaded it with the sole intention of frustrating his creation. If this god existed, he would be the dick to end all dicks.
Troubleshooter125 Christians know that. That’s why their so terrified/terrorized by God. See my WOTM video called, God is the biggest.
Troubleshooter125 BTW, great post. I’d forgotten about that verse. Holy Shit!!!!!!!
Brian, as more of your videos keep popping up in my feed (hail the almighty algorithm!) over time, one thing that amazes me, is how you’ve managed to keep finding new ways to present this information. Different skits, different formats, different presentations, but always the same seriousness + delightful sarcasm.
This is a great series. I also enjoy less pop-up text. On your other videos I find myself reading and laughing at those and having to re-watch because I missed the point. But, don't stop them. They're lots of fun.
The only monsters I see are other people. Making up silly stories to justify their actions instead of taking responsibility for their misdeeds.
Christian: God is good.
Atheist: By what standard?
Christian: Objectively.
Atheist: So god is subject to a standard greater than his own.
Christian: Um, no. Whatever god does is good by definition.
Atheist: So "god is good" is a vacuous tautology.
Christian: Um, no. God's a really great guy.
Atheist: Not according to the bible.
Christian: Only according to human morality. Objectively, god is good. Oh, shit.
I shut down the "morality is objective" argument a bit quicker, using only a single response... "For something to be objective, is must be measurable. Show me a unit of morality and I'll admit that it's objective. Otherwise it's an abstract concept, which makes it subjective."
Hmm. That's a different sense of "objective". I'm using it to mean "existing whether we can know about it". Your sense is more like "knowable". I'm not aware of any unit scales measuring saltiness, bendability, or resemblence to Colonal Sanders, but that doesn't mean they're "abstract concepts", or a unit of morality couldn't be invented.
A unit of morality could be invented IF morality were something which can be measured. For instance, length is objective. We can objectively measure it, and all who measure a given length are going to come to the same conclusion, regardless of what unit they use to measure it, because units that measure the same thing can be converted between.
Morality however is not something we can examine. It is not something that can be measured, detected, or otherwise even proven, objectively, to exist.
We can objectively prove that many animals, even primitive ones like fish, behavior in a way that comports with the human concept of morality (such as piranhas not killing eachother even in a feeding frenzy) but that doesn't mean it is objective. Absent the ability to measure morality, either as a substance (like atoms) or a property (like length), any argument that it's objective is thinly veiled sophistry.
_"IF morality were something which can be measured."_
Is it worse to murder than to steal? It is less bad to tell a comforting lie to one who needs comfort than to hid a million dollars in an offshore account? You've just compared levels of (im)morality. From which it's a short step to put the items on a scale, assign numbers, and invent a unit.
You and I may disagree about whether kicking a dog is 3.7 or 5.1 on the scale, but as you helpfully point out, data for the scale is available in the natural ("objective") world.
You may say there are no detectable facts in the world corresponding to human moral judgements. Perhaps, but firstly, these judgements are remarkably consistent, making morality at the least studyable as a branch of psychology. And second, there are no objective colours, only sense-impressions, most of which don't correspond to specific wavelength of EM radiation. Yet the study of colour perception exists.
Stefan
*Is it worse to murder than to steal?*
The fact that we can subjectively assign how immoral an action is does not mean that morality can be objectively measured. We both agree that murder is worse than stealing, but how much worse? Twice as bad? Three times as bad? One and a half times? 8.72 times as bad?
Show me the means with which we can measure it.
*You and I may disagree about whether kicking a dog is 3.7 or 5.1 on the scale, but as you helpfully point out, data for the scale is available in the natural ("objective") world.*
And then you have people who eat dogs. In Korea (North or South, doesn't matter) there is a belief that torturing dogs before they're killed makes the meat taste better.
*Perhaps, but firstly, these judgements are remarkably consistent*
Not really. As I just demonstrated, some people willingly kick dogs, and do things that you would probably find even worse. You ever seen people do this to a dog and think it's a good thing? watch?v=_ZVQjgGb4RQ
Show me how it's objectively immoral to torture a dog. Just because the both of us agree that it's highly immoral to do that doesn't mean it's objectively highly immoral to do so. Afterall, I just demonstrated that there are people who do not think it's immoral to do so.
Suppose everyone agrees that chocolate icecream is tasty. That doesn't mean that tastiness is objective, nor does it mean that chocolate icecream is necessarily objectively tasty. The popularity of an opinion does not magically make opinions into objective truths.
Show me how we can measure morality in an objective fashion.
*And second, there are no objective colours, only sense-impressions,
most of which don't correspond to specific wavelength of EM radiation.*
Mmm, not really. Colors are wave lengths within the visible spectrum of light, and therefore they can be objectively measured. We have objective definitions for colors. Mind you, the boundaries between the colors, those are subjective, but we can objectively demonstrate that color exists, and we can objectively measure color.
Color is so objective that there are both digital and analog sensors for it www.digikey.com/products/en/sensors-transducers/color-sensors/539
Show me how we can measure morality in an objective fashion.
Show me a device which can detect morality.
You can't, because morality is subjective.
regarding the killing of all egyptian first born you forgot 3 really interesting parts of the story that also tell us a lot about him:
1)god has purposefully made pharaoh's heart harden to moses's request. taking away his free will completely, and actively forcing the outcome of the killing of egyptian firstborns, and that was just the 10'th plague!
2)god commanded the hebrews to smear goat blood on their door frames, so that he will know to skip that house.
i really don't see how this fits with god being all knowing, but let's assume there was somebody who didn't have goat's blood, what then? did he kill the hebrew firstborns that were in an unmarked house?
3)in the conversation with the burning bush, god specifically tells moses to outright lie to pharaoh, telling him he only wants the hebrew slaves to be allowed to have a 3 day festival in the desert to worship god and give him sacrifices.
this demonstrates that god has no qualms about lying.
interestingly enough i have just a few days ago created a post in an atheist-theist discussion group, asking how can theists have the confidence that god isn't lying to them, even assuming that everything in the bible is god's own word.
some commenters have brought up various examples in the bible of god lying.
The most obvious of which is god telling adam and eve that eating the fruit will kill them.
the bible *starts off* with a massive lie by god.
another example is when some prophet, i believe it was samuel, was told by god to go to king saul, and tell him that god is displeased with him and wants to replace him (with david), samuel told god that saul would simply kill him on the spot, so god told samuel to lie to saul that he is simply there to make a sacrifice to god so as to not raise his suspicion.
this facebook group is an israeli one, so all theists and atheists in the group (including me) are using the original hebrew, rather than any translation, so even stupid "mistranslation" arguments are invalid.
Awesome. Is it a public group? I can't read Hebrew but I wouldn't mind have a link handy, just in case!
I didn't know there was an "original" bible. I was under the impression that it's all translation of a translation of a translation with edits made every time the clergy felt like something in it needed a tweak. And that perhaps the oldest version was Greek?
As for the Adam and Eve story, if you think about it, eating the apple did kill them, since they would remain immortal had not eaten it. I'm sure any theist would tell you that immediately.
facebook.com/groups/daetahlka/
i'm not sure if it will be of any use to you though.
it's basically just like any other atheist and theist discussion group where atheists love bashing theists, and theists love making really dumb arguments.
it is more civil than most other groups of the sort, but at least there is actually an active participation by both orthodox jews, and atheists.
@@Czenda24 Would they have remained immortal?
Not according to Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said: 'Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever.'
@@tmjewel Such a convoluted sentence. You can't be sure what it means now; let alone what it meant 5 translations ago.
When I was a little kid hearing about Jericho and the conquest of Cannin, I always wondered "why didn't god send down an archangel to guard it or put up a magical barrier to prevent any other people from settling on it.
Just proselytized another convert to Mr Deity and this time I had the pleasure of binge watching season one with him. We both laughed our asses off. Your shtick still works ten years later.
I must CONFESS I've been a little jealous of all those numerous innocent newbies who I introduce to your works knowing I can't ever experience the bliss of a new convert. However, this time I tried to be as pure and ignorant as a born again babe in an attempt to reach a similar rapture. Lordy Oh Lord LOL I achieved it! While your latest stuff has more philosophical sophistication and nuance your old work still demonstrates depth AND plays well ...congrats, Brian! I only regret that my old hard drive backup crashed and I lost season two. Then I loaned out the DVDs I bought one too many times and never got them back! Quel dommage!
Now that I think about it, that means that I also lost your "Frost Nixon" parody too. QUEL QUEL DOMMAGE!
Tim Kiehl Thanks so much! I always appreciate the evangelism. Well, at least from my folks. Good on ya!
You mentioned something early that I have challenged theists on - when they say that bad things are necessary for the greater good, I ask them if they believe god is all-powerful. If they say yes, they have just lost, but they can't see it. One example I use is the purported conquest of Canaan. Why didn't god just make that land the harshest desert ever known to man? Absolutely uninhabitable until he brought the Jews there? And then when his people got there he could make the land fertile and green for them. No killing needed. The closest thing I got to a sensible answer (not very close) is that they would not have appreciated the gift if they didn't have to fight and sacrifice for it.
Pat Doyle Yep. There’s always some bullshit answer they’ll pull out of their pockets.
Is this a KIA ad?
I was also wondering if that was intentional...
It seems pureflix is determined to fund your awesome channel. :)
Hey ya lill devil :)
Why didn't Abraham attack and try to kill the angel that told him not to kill his son? God told him to kill his son so any being contradicting that should be of the devil.
WarmWeatherGuy That’s a great point. I’d never thought of it. That would make a funny Mr. Deity. Thank you! And sorry for the theft.
Please do. That would be great.
I'm sending this to my parents though I don't think they'll watch it. Awesome video!
Thanks Brian. Good points, some of which are new to me.
Idaho Spud Woohoo!!! That’s such a nice comment. I really hate the thought of just repeating the same old thing others have presented. You made my fortnight!
@@misterdeity Don't despair. Even three years on this is still informing more people. The question I wonder is how it's taken this long to get recommended to me.
We'll never know if Abraham would have gone through with it. Could there have been a last moment hesitation? What would God have done? The assumption is that Abraham would have done it. But God could have raised Issac afterward or made his skin momentarily impenetrable. It would have made for a more impressive story. Also, why the test in the first place? Doesn't God already know Abraham's heart?
Can you imagine the awkward conversation as Isaac
and Abraham made their long walk home? ; )
Yeah that last bit is the most important. If god already knew the outcome, there was no need for the test in the first place - ergo, he was merely toying with Abraham and Isaac.
You would think that they could have at least scored a roasted goat dinner. ; )
"Pat Robertson's Dentures" is my new band name.
Back in the day, I wondered if the rapture had already occurred and we were the ones left behind. With what's going on now a days (Pres. T in particular) it could be an explanation.
Also, if "God's character can never be known", or "God works in mysterious ways" (or whatever people say to justify their lack of definiteness), then why should we believe any preacher that claims to know how to interpret him?
BorlandC452 Really good point. That is the essence of the problem, isn’t it? These people will say God is a mystery and then tell you they know all about him and exactly what he wants (including his percentage). Wait... what?
*God is the clay, and humanity, the sculptor.*
_More like, made in our image._
I watched this video for the photo at 3:13. I continued watching because the picture of Abraham and Isaac at 4:27 was cool. I also liked how you kept changing shirts during the video. As Steve Allen used to say, "All seriousness aside..." Buehler, Buehler, anyone... And, here's a question for you: If we join hitch, do we hitch join? OK, what I wrote was just pure nonsense. :) I always like your videos, Mr. D.
Your best video yet,bar none !!!!
Why do the fake plants at 4:11 spell "KIA"?
And why change shirts in the middle of a video
and then change back? _/s_ ; )
They're dead?!
_"Damn! Damn! Damn!"_
In my version of the bible, god says he will kill _all_ the first born of Egypt - not just the sons. And he included all the animals in that plague too. Just because he’s always got it in for animals.
Many paintings depicting that plague show babies and other infants dying but, the first-born in a family is likely to be the eldest possibly by a long way; my brother is the first born in our family and he’s in his fifties. So, all first-born would include the Pharaoh himself as the first-born of his own family.
I can say I believe. I can want to believe. But In real, honest to goodness truth, I cannot choose to believe anything. It seems that God should be smart enough to know that.
God doesn't think you're smart enough to know that, ha ha. Joke's on Him.
Well, you're right, a god would be smart enough to know that. The kind of people who make gods up, however, aren't.
12:03 Exactly says the much-maligned Gnostic!
Thank you for this, again.
I know the full details of God's will.
He leaves everything to Jesus, apart from a $100 bequest to a charity for cats.
Wow! Good insight on the story of Abraham! God commanding a thing it apparently didn’t actually want casts doubt on all its commandments and motives.
KIA plant
KIA in the background, subtle advertising?
The rancher has a plan for his cattle. The plan is to feed them, care for them and then kill and eat them. I'm not sure the cattle would like the rancher's plan if they knew what it was.
Likewise for the shepherd and his flock, although the shepherd also fleeces their flock on a regular basis. Now where have I heard someone describe themselves as a shepherd and their audience as their flock...
@9:07 God is Emperor Palpatine confirmed!
Why would God create humans as in intermediate step for another species? Wouldn't he just be able to put the species here to begin with? Being all powerful and all?
And if that God's sole desire is for Man to exist with him in heaven forever, why not just create Man in heaven?
Exactly. The small detail that has always bothered me is that God was angry when he threw Adam and Eve from Paradise, and when he almost destroyed his chosen people in the Sinai Desert, and when he destroyed Gomorrah, and so many other times. You have to be surprised to be truly angry. It makes no sense to be angry with Adam and Eve, who did exactly what God should have known they were going to do.
But then, God decided to kill his own son, Christ, even before he created Adam and Eve. Otherwise, he could have created a more intelligent Adam and Eve. And he should have known that the coming of Christ would change nothing here on Earth.
The whole Bible, Old and New Testament alike, sounds a lot like the Greek Tragedies, in which men and women follow a path to destruction without even knowing it, except that in the Bible the one following the path to destruction is God.
Remember, god set them up to fail on purpose, also they didn't sin. They had to eat from the tree to know the difference between good and evil so they couldn't have possibly known disobeying god was evil. He specifically NEEDED them to sin(even though they had no idea they were sinning)to get the whole story going. Also remember Cain went to another land to find a wife(where the fuck did all these other people come from?)
*Adam Youdell*
It is really quite elementary, my friend.
The bible is fiction. ; )
Does god care to fix the psychological damage done by his little tests, which supposedly he should already know the results of, and are therefore completely pointless by definition?
Another spot-on video, but I was so fascinated by the filming I had a hard time listening. Whether the backrounds are projected or actually there, you must be standing or sitting on some sort of giant lazy-susan type of platform. Can you reveal this cinematic trick or are we left to guess? Perhaps it's a demonic trick.
The room was filmed (or photographed) separately, and Brian's talk was shot against a green screen, and then the two visuals combined. Then it's easy to move the room image in the rear around.
4:10,... Whoa,.. slow down with the quick change there big fella,... I'm a little high and your freaking me out,... *: )*
All powerful can-do-anything-he-wants god wants more than anything to forgive everyone for a made up sin, but just can't unless he gets a deity pseudo-sacrificed in human form and in dramatic fashion. And he's the only deity that qualifies for the sacrifice. Such absurdity.
God: The Most Unpleasant Character in All of Fiction
Precisely!
It's clear that religion is an idol that people worship. The more fervent the worship of their idol, the less they are able to tell the difference between right and wrong, as we can see from their words and actions.
Exactly! How can we know God is telling us the truth when we would never be able tell if he were lying to us? This alone means we can't be sure about anything God has supposedly told us about himself. God could be the devil, and we wouldn't know. So how can religion even be a thing? We would need some way to confirm/verify what we think about God with evidence in order to actually know it, 'faith' doesn't work when the other person could be a perfect liar.
TheVofR And every religion thinks just that of the other religions - that the other religions are in some way Satan’s doing.
This is how I elucidate the point, in logical form, to believers:
If I am to believe the Christian God exists, I must also believe the Devil exists, so -
1. If the Devil exists, he will try to commit acts that are evil, and he will do so as much as he can.
2. One of the most evil acts (if not THE most evil act) that the Devil could commit is to fool people that he is in fact God; he must therefore be doing it now if he has not already done so.
Then I pose them this question: How do you know you aren't actually worshipping the Devil in disguise?
Nobody has ever given me a coherent answer.
The god of the "Double-Think". Holding opposed things as being the same.
There's no way Dawkins can convince more ppl of a lack of any god(s) than Brian
*The existential comfort business* I love it! You have a way with words.
I prefer to believe there are many Gods and that none of them care about me, in particular, all that much. Like people!
I prefer to believe that _I AM_ God and that none of you people matter.
_giggity! giggity! goo!_ ; )
It is the contradictory nature of Greek gods, sometimes benefiting humans, other times trying to destroy them, that seemed more realistic than than the supposedly all-loving God of the Bible.
I contribute to each episode. Is that what you mean by being sponsored?
Great video, but could have used more cowbell, errrr I mean snark. Then again I'm never happy without a doomsday level of snark.
Sponsored vid?
Under your clock, the flowers spell "KIA".
Tim Williams That’s SO funny!!!!
I noticed... I couldn't take my eyes off of them 😵
But what I read was "Killed In Action": God is dead. Checkmate theists!
Funny thing also: when Mr Deity enumerates killings with KIA in the background. Clever editing! 😉
Also you can’t just believe something you cannot choose to believe something that is another problem
Why do your flowers spell out KIA?
Subliminal advertising.
I was going to ask the same thing. 😂
@@InigoMontoya- it was in the center of the screen for a while... maybe they're a sponsor. Haha.
Because he was two *characters* short for NOkia 😁
Didn't know I was tuning in to a KIA commercial. I know monetization on YT is rough right now but \you're supposed to disclose that your video is sponsored!
EUREKA MOMENT!
Eureka! I discovered a message from one of the graphics -- religion can be well described as "The Ministry of Silly Walks"
...all things can be know truly, Honoré, through our lords, and saviors of Monty Python.
_Doh!_ @ th-cam.com/video/iV2ViNJFZC8/w-d-xo.html
God is such a perfectly good and all loving god that genocide is an act of love and goodness when he does it, or if it’s done in his name. Yet, “thou shalt not kill.” Hmm...smdh. God loves slavery and really doesn’t care much about rape, but you CAN’T under any circumstances, unless god really favors you (David) commit adultery. THAT would be horrible! Yep; that goodness and love for ya.
And a man can't marry his half-sister...
"Cursed be he that lieth with his sister, the daughter of his father, or the daughter of his mother." - Deuteronomy 27:22
...unless that man happens to be Abraham...
"And yet indeed she is my sister; she is the daughter of my father, but not the daughter of my mother; and she became my wife." - Genesis 20:12
...in which case...
"And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed." - Genesis 12:2-3
I just go back to the idea that an All-Knowing, All-Good God would create people that He knows will make choices that will send them to hell. To knowingly create people He knows will go to Hell proves he is not All-Good (or, even slightly good, maybe Thursday morning). You make some very good points. An honest christian (with a reasonable brain) would find it difficult to refute your arguments. God is not good. The proof is in His book(s). Dossier? Brilliant. You are a very clever writer. You should have your own TV show.
If god cares about people then it can't be all knowing or all powerful. Why would such a being give a fart about anything in reality let alone people, individually or collectively. To paraphrase Star Trek, 'What does god need with [people]?'
3:13 Actually, it's "check out the big brain on Brett."
I never got that. If God made ever and knows everything he made evil too! Am I wrong?
You are correct. the Bible has him saying that very thing in Isaiah.
God left a will?
Yep, a will not give a phuck.
This reminds me of Sausage Party - The Great Beyond Song.
WarmWeatherGuy Aside from A Ghost Story, that’s the most existential film I’ve seen in years. And I think it’s going to prove very subversive.
KIA on the wall in the background over your right shoulder...what's that about?
God is perfect, as in the perfect psychopath, He manipulates us using fear when not terror and is endless loops of confusion.
So does this mean that god defies logic? And if god defies logic what rules do apply to god? None apparently.
I thought there were supposed to be ten chapters
Oh please, just a little peril.
Abraham's story today? No one believes it, he goes to jail, and his lawyer argues insanity.
Same story in some old book written in weird old English? It's legit.
Uridien 1 I’d actually like to do that as a short film.
+misterdeity
The comedy movie, "The Year One" sort of did that. There was a fairly significant segment of the film where Hank Azaria played Abraham, and it was hilarious. They also riffed on Cain and Abel.
th-cam.com/video/Yv95HNhkdcw/w-d-xo.html Abraham sacrificing Isaac
th-cam.com/video/-PdAhZjuHbU/w-d-xo.html Hilarious circumcision scene
*Uridien*
Imagine the awkward conversation, if any, on their long walk home.
I keep expecting modern day believers to respond "They were crazy but amen to their faith" when someone today kills or attempts to kill their children believing god told them to do so. Even strong believers find the act repugnant. They find the attempt repugnant. Yet Abraham is the perfect example of faith.
Exactly. Who was that woman? Susan something (Smith?), who killed her kids so that they would be safe with Jesus. Isn't that an amazing display of faith? And a great sacrifice to make for them? Apparently not. She's crazy and evil, but Abraham was great.
Let me run something by you real quick as it's been bouncing around in my noggin for a bit. Since the Bible has been revised so many times with many different versions, why haven't people removed the many bad/immoral passages during those revisions? Wouldn't that help their standpoint at least in a little in their mind?
TheGOOD Kyle You would think, right? But that shows the power of religious belief. There are prohibitions against doing just that in the Bible itself. And they take that shit seriously. Jefferson didn’t and created his own Bible leaving out the bad stuff. But Christians would rather defend that stuff because once you start questioning one part, look out!!! That whole facade may crumble.
No wonder religious right loves Trump
Are you referring to Thor or Zeus ?
Big Brain Brad looks like Sheldon Cooper after the tragic lab accident turned him into a super-villain
Great content. I think the "How do you know God's not lying" argument is underused. Seems to me that it would cut the legs out from under a presuppositionalist's claim to knowledge pretty easily.
I would get rid of the little side jokes, TBH. They seem to conflict with the tone of the rest of your video and make it seem like you're trying to be sarcastic and ironic when you're not.
djwiens The little side jokes are what I do. That’s all I got. You lose those and I’m done!
I disagree. I think your content, questions, and points are by far the biggest draw for me. But you do your thing. Not gonna put me off in the slightest.
djwiens I’ll take that as a compliment. Thanks.
Look at the big brain on BRETT .... not brad.
c keno Holy crap!!! You’re right. I even looked that up online. WTF?!!!
Wouldn’t that be some shit?? Lmao if really the agnostic atheist are the ones that get to go to heaven
I agree with the final words. If the god of abraham is real, that would be truly awful. Part of my zeal in atheism is the fear is that monster may be real. As an atheist I must hold that a god may exist. After all, i cannot prove it doesnt. But if it did and it is the tribal thunder god of iron age, blood thirsty beaudions of the middle east, then we are all in great trouble. For even the rewards are horrible.
See you're going with product placement now. The second half of your video in center screen was advertising for Kia Motors. :)
Get ad blocker plus. And since when was profit a bad thing?
It was a joke, I thought the smiley icon would give that away.
Prophet has always been a bad thing.
in the original story abraham did kill issac..
You were there???
@Naukumaija Mau-mau iiiiiiiiinteresting!
The God of Genesis is said to have created us in his own image. Then placed us in a garden of Eden and told us NOT to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. A moral sense is the knowledge of Good and evil. And God forbade us from having that knowledge after creating us in his own image, i.e. without knowledge of good and evil. This text alone proves that God, himself, MUST be amoral and our original sin was to CHOOSE to have moral agency. To know good from evil. In this sense God has no right to judge us because we are moral people and he is, by his own admission, amoral. The Bible then goes on to describe a God that is, undeniably, amoral. He creates Satan because he Amoral. He creates hell because he is amoral. He tortures the people he created knowing they would be damned because he is amoral. He toys with Jonah because he is amoral, floods the world to punish the people he created for being what he knew they would be, because he is amoral. The concept of God’s judgment is a non sequitur because, being amoral, he utterly lacks moral judgment. He creates souls to go onto babies he knows in advance will die in the womb, without any hope of washing away the stain of the original sin that he invented because we did exactly what he created us to do when he knowingly placed that tree in the garden.
I believe in a god who rewards those who don't believe in him.
bla bla bla bla bla