That’s an interesting thing to point out, they really do reference Paul’s teachings quite frequently. Jesus not so much unless they’re misinterpreting his words to condemn divorce.
I'd go so far as to say they are very selective with what Paul says also. Romans for example, where they quote Romans 1 about homosexuality, but then just totally ignore Romans 2. Which means they (I'm guessing deliberately) miss Paul's whole point and kind of turn Paul's own argument into the opposite. It's all very selective quotes they use.
That's what happens when you're raised in extreme religion...its almost like it stunts your brain ...similar to people who find addiction at a young age. These are just coronations between addiction and fundie religion that I've noticed and picked up on spending time with fundies and addicts 🤔 there's something there
@@jaimesfollyExactly! I couldn’t put my finger on it, but THAT IS IT. They’re emotionally and socially stunted. Their immaturity is in their staunch belief of their own infallibility, claiming it’s based in God’s infallible word, and it prevents them from really hearing and digesting the ideas of others. Listening skills are a critical asset and one worth P&M making an investment in.
Anyone who says the Bible is to be taken literally but isn't incredibly skilled in at least Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic is a joke. The English Bible is an adaptation of an adaptation of an adaptation translation of a translation of a translation. There's a lot different than the initial written text. (And that's before you get to the party where a bunch of old white guys got together and decided which religious writings were going to be the official history and doctrine, and got rid of the ones that they didn't like, especially if they had to do with the role of women.)
That’s true, but I’d say P&M are arguing something even beyond that, to take their Bible literally *and* to distrust what the people who have studied the text in their original languages have to say.
Paul: I want people to go back to the word and figure out what it says Progressive Christians: It says here to love one another above everything except for loving God. Paul: No, not like that.
Happy Birthday!! As a queer person I appreciate the way Tim went about answering their questions with regards to LGBTQ issues, specifically when he made it clear that queerness and alcoholism aren't the same thing. It's a very frustrating comparison. I know for me, I didn't grow up in any kind of church community and still struggled with my identity and mental health issues. I'd have imagine going weekly to a place that says your feelings are sinful would make that 100 times worse. Also maybe it's just me, but it feels weird to hear Paul say "the LGBT," it feels like when people say "the Blacks" instead of Black people.
I always laugh at how every single time Paul no longer has ammunition for something he immediately pivots to something else. It’s classic abusive behaviour.
Emotional abuse is a spectrum and most ppl don't even realize they are emotionally abusive. This is why therapy and learning better communication skills would be highly beneficial to paul and everyone around him.
What stands out to me is how much better informed Tim is than Paul. It's amazing how even just a little bit of wiggle room allows for people to search out truth, in my opinion. I'm not Christian any more but I appreciate Tim's takes - I'm just not in a place any more where I think the Bible is a guide and should provide your morals, but I'm glad Tim's view is more focussed on what harm his actions cause.
In Tim’s most recent video he said he felt bad as a human that the majority of the comments on P&M video were pointing out how educated Tim is vs how ignorant of Christian theology and history Paul seems to be. He is a really good guy and as a follower of Christ it’s like a breath of fresh air to know he is representing my faith is such a beautiful, loving, and intelligent way.
@@sambailie4773 with respect, comments like this do nothing to convey the love of Jesus. If you feel you should pray for someone, great. But to come on here and make this comment feels more like a southern “bless your heart” than genuine love of God. I’m not sure your intent, but on the other side of you it’s like a drive by egging. There’s a reason people no longer care about “thoughts and prayers”. Please know this is coming from someone who believes God hears my prayers.
Honestly that’s my biggest takeaway from this series. Paul and Morgan don’t seem to be super well informed or even curious about their own faith. It’s telling.
@@sambailie4773 Hi! I trust your heart is in a good place, but you don't have to. Being free from religion is one of the best things that ever happened to me. ❤
Paul and Morgan are so incredibly ignorant. I know it’s not polite to say that but they truly know so little about anything at all. The way Paul said that Tim wouldn’t be comfortable in a “traditional” church because he’s affirming when fundamentalist churches reject most liturgical tradition, and mainline churches that preserve the tradition by and far are affirming. Not to mention how little Paul knows about the theology of his own faith. Paul and Morgan really shouldn’t have a platform but since they do I’m glad that they’re bringing more intelligent and informed people on to speak in this case.
I totally agree!! I have no problem saying Paul and Morgan are ignorant, because they are. I studied religion in university and learned a lot about Judaism, and how it reflects upon Christ’s teachings and Christianity in general, and I feel like it’s literally so easy to know more they just don’t want to look into it. They call themselves experts and give this advice and preach, but they literally don’t know what they’re talking about. No nuance, no history, no theology! It’s maddening!
It just shows how much these evangelical/ fundie “Christians” have strayed away from the teaching of Christ. I don’t even think these evangelicals know the Lord’s Prayer by heart.
Agree, I suspect that church beliefs and set ups that Paul calls 'traditional' are less than 200 years old, whereas there are families of churches with tradition going back thousand plus years. But they were brought up to see those as not even Christians,. I think of ignorance as a neutral, a before data added situation. I didn't know x, now I do. I think the extreme literalist/inerrancy /fundies are in the minus scale they are not ignorant but worse than that they have been given information that stops them questioning the value of data, of daring to think differently. Until they can argue that grass is red.
Agree. By evangelical standards even Paul is really showing he doesn't know much. I've done a bit of training, and can tell he is really lacking here. He gets some of the evangelical positions wrong, and doesn't have the critical thought processes that you develop when go are exposed to more academic neutral thinking. It all comes over as judgemental and his own opinion. Much of what he says is only backed up by his own assertions of him reading the bible ("getting into the word", as he says) but he admits to avoiding and openly dismissing academic material that may challenge his interpretation.
It's really frustrating to hear Paul go from talking about queer inclusion to porn. This is a gross conflation between the two things. They are NOT similar AT ALL. That felt very purposeful and sinister from Paul. Don't do that.
The problem is that it's not purposeful or (intentionally) sinister. When you're in that evangelical space you truly believe that LGBTQ+, pornograpy, pedophilia, etc are all in the same category - departures from God's intended sexual ethic. They don't see the damage they cause by equating the two because fundamentalist evangelicals see them all as equally bad and to be villainized. It's all an intentional turning away from God's plan to them. Granted, I absolutely believe that there are people who use fundamentalist Christianity as a cudgel who don't actually believe the way a true believer does in regards to sexual ethic but there's no way to tell someone's true intentions from the outside.
I am glad you called out that very, very stupid argument that Morgan made. That she thinks anyone would feel badly if their church told them they were sinful. Tim had JUST EXPLAINED that this only happens to queer people. These types of churches increase suicidal ideation in queer people, and all she can say is, “BUT SIN!!!!!”
I never knew about the New Evangelicals, so i didn't understand why everyone was so excited for this collab. Definitely get it now, the New Evangelicals are people i would have seriously appreciated having around when I was growing up
when Tim said that people treat the bible as the 4th trinity...dang that hit hard. I've only been in circles that are super strict with the bible, but this man describing it as a useful tool kind of blew my mind. I've never thought of the bible as a tool. for whatever reason this gives me motivation to revisit it. also win for the week is that I've started so many IV's in people! I've been afraid of doing IV's but I've been getting better at them. hope whoever's reading this has a good day ☺️
My win for the week is I moved into a new rental house with my friend and its a disabled friendly property so I have more freedom to move around. The owner put in bars and a ramp for me to make it accessible so I'm so thankful.
Wow that is such a big deal! im glad you will have more freedom to get around. My win is I just got a car for the first time in 9 years and I am LOVING being able to drive my kids wherever they want. Previously they couldn’t do any sports because we didn’t have access. Not the same as your situation but both related to mobility and freedom
I think the frustrating thing is that Tim knows so much that Paul doesn’t have any information that Tim isn’t aware of that will convince him. But Paul doesn’t have the mindset that he could be wrong, so he won’t listen to Tim.
Yeah that's how I saw it too. Tim seems like he would be open to learning and shifting his beliefs if Paul had actual evidence. Paul's beliefs just seem so fragile as if accepting one of Tim's beliefs would cause all of his beliefs to crumble
RE: lgbtq+ stuff: I agree Paul is grasping at straws to affirm his position. I think a good question for Paul would be, how do you invest in the lives of lgbtq+ ppl beyond zeroing in on what you perceive as “taboo” about them? I would want to know if Paul has any lgbtq+ friends, or if he’s met an lgbtq+ couple who are thriving together. You can’t love someone when you only see a label and don’t have the flexibility to discover who they really are and why they are worth celebrating.
Tim eats Paul’s lunch while Morgan giggles. Goodness. Tim highlights how stubborn, arrogant, and uneducated Paul is. Almost painful to watch. B - you look positively beautiful! Glowing like crazy!
Great reaction! I'm always perplexed by how Paul and Morgan are the ones who edit their videos but somehow manage to make themselves come off unfavourably.
Hot take, but I think this is why people need to stop saying that "unaliving yourself is a choice" because for the majority of cases, people don't unalive themselves for no reason... How you treat others is INCREDIBLY important as we ARE social creatures. SOCIAL ISOLATION in the old days was LITERALLY classified as a form of TORTURE!! Let that sink in...
YES! Self-unaliving is collective murder. No one would blame a victim of starvation or dehydration for their own death. It would clearly be caused by neglect from their family, community, and/or society.
TNE has an excellent, must-watch three-part series on the history of the conflict in Palestine. I binged it over the past few days. Cannot recommend it enough.
Paul's condescending "I'm glad to hear you say that"s every time Tim said something Paul could squint at and consider agreement with him were infuriating. Like he went into it expecting Tim to support drug-fueled public orgies or porn in elementary schools or something and was pleasantly surprised when he said he considers hook-up culture unwise. Shut up, Paul.
Win for the week. I finally had a doctor who not only knew about my extremely rare illness but also did further testing and is trying some new stuff to help. As someone with massive medical trauma, this is huge.
I absolutely HATE the way that fundamentalists like P&M debate and process information. They literally do not know how to approach a conversation with an open mind and are so unaware of how their beliefs lead them down paths that are illogical. It seems like this whole conversation is just Paul trying to get Tim to say “oh actually my beliefs don’t make sense and you’re way is better”.
Re: comparing homosexuality to alcoholism: "Mom, Dad, I have news for you. I know this will be hard to understand, but I've struggled with something for a long time. I don't expect you to approve, but I ask you to please respect my decision and do not judge me while pretending to call out my sinful lifestyle. After careful reflection and deep prayer, I've decided to become an alcoholic." A conversation that no one has ever had.
@Nomarcaper not really, since Paul conflates homosexuality with the act. So only if you're embracing your alcoholism even though you've never had a drink. Most teens that come out to their parents are still virgins.
@@angelawossname I think you missed my point. I’m not disagreeing with OPs comment. I’m just saying if they want even try to have a rebuttal, that would be a “better” argument, which still doesn’t work.
@@angelawossname ah, that’s fine. But I disagree. I don’t know what virginity has to do with this, and virginity is a social construct. A lot of times, those who are LGBT have had some sort of same sex interactions, regardless of it was sex or not. “Embracing being an alcoholic” is saying you’ve had something to drink, and it makes you feel good, so you want to continue. Same with “embracing my sexuality”. The individual knows it’s right for them, and makes them feel better to embrace who they are. Again, we are debating a shitty argument that doesn’t work.
The entire premise of this series if flawed because Paul is a deeply uncurious, inflexible person. He doesn't want to find common ground, he wants to argue and doesn't have the intellect and research to back it up. Tim is fascinating and Paul is so exhausting to listen to.
Yes new to both of them but spot on- I know Paul- well in the sense that I was raised in an evangelical church that taught me that their beliefs were correct and everyone else was lost. Who is this Tim- I'm seriously curious now
Yes! I must admit I like this 24 Hrs because Paul is being forced to think instead of just react. It's quite refreshing to see. My Win For the Week: Enjoying Quiet Time while everyone is asleep but Me
59:10 I've heard this talking point before, that "the apparent contradictions don't affect any significant doctrines", and I think I just figured out what got glossed over in this part of the conversation. The contradictions *do* affect a doctrine that evangelical Christianity, specifically, has made core to itself: the inerrancy of Scripture. If, instead of inventing increasingly convoluted ways to harmonize the contradictions, we accept them for what they are - and therefore, accept that the Bible can contain factual and possibly doctrinal error - that changes everything.
The Bible doesn't really teach a doctrine therefore it can't contain doctrinal errors by default. What people don't realize is that the authors and the people who compiled these different scriptures into one book weren't dumber than us, they just thought very differently from us. They never seemed to care about contradictions between the texts because that was irrelevant to them. Even if they noticed them, they obviously didn't think it was a problem. How much easier could they have made things if they had, as Marcion suggested, only chosen one gospel instead of 4. Then modern scholars come along and being unable to even understand the mindset of the authors (because modern scholarship is based on things we take for granted, like Greek philosophy and its concept of ideas, as well as formal logic, etc - all things largely unknown to the authors of the Bible and not a part of their worldview) "discover" all these differences in nuance and emphasis between the gospels and declare those to be problematic or invent ideas like an "evolution of doctrine" from one gospel to the next - which would mean we would have to be able to bring the gospels into a clear time line and even that is largely based on pure speculation.
Ok this is my fave 24hrs as someone who believes in God & loves your channel for some of the same reasons. I love that 1. He’s so knowledgeable/realistic 2. He’s looked into so much of the context from that time, from the most reliable sources, looked into the difference in what certain words even meant. I LOVE that!! When my dad was alive he had the strongest faith & he was always questioning & learning like this as well. For as much as Paul argues, it’s interesting how few deeper points he has to debate or carry his thoughts.
As a gay person, I want to thank hetero Christians like Tim for doing this work. That’s how you do allyship, by taking his encyclopedic knowledge of the Bible and biblical scholarship and using it to topple the problematic belief systems that underpin the continued oppression of myself and my community. It doesn’t matter if Paul and Morgan change their minds, at this point I think it’s fruitless to hope for that, they have too much invested in their worldview. The goal is to change the minds of the viewers.
Tim would disagree on the question whether it's hopeless. He said himself that he empathizes with Paul because he was just like him in the past. The new evangelicals only started around 2016. Tim deconstructed because of the obsession of evangelicals with Trump.
My win for the week is that I did my first long drive (5 hours) with my 9 month old to see my beautiful niece and sister, and a few tears but we made it! And now I know we can do it, we can keep doing it!!
Win for the week: My husband and I rescued a little baby kitten that we found in the middle of the road! He's the sweetest boy and we're taking care of him until my best friend adopts him 😊
This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. John:15:12 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; Matthew:5:44 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? Matthew:5:46
I had the same thought about Paul saying Tim wouldn't be happy in a traditional Christian church. That's so vague. Oh you think Tim wouldn't be happy as a catholic? He wouldn't be happy being greek orthodox? OK. Paul apparently has no understanding of the vastness of Christian tradition.
1:02:13 this conversation is interesting because as university in religious studies about Judaism it was said that ancient people did in fact have a solid sense of the metaphor and myth vs reality. But during that period they didn’t feel the need to make a differentiation because the cultural importance was equal
Paul is fighting to keep up intellectually and it’s painful to watch lol. I don’t know how he’s satisfied hearing at Tim’s well reasoned and argued points and responding with circular arguments and gotcha attempts
I just have to say.. hearing you talk about getting severely anxious over the concept of time never ending was really comforting. I have struggled with that since I was a child, but others in my Christian circle growing up never voiced those same fears.. it was nice to feel a little validated that yeah… even if I’m a Christian, there are so many things I don’t know and get anxious over. And that’s okay..I’ll go ahead and throw that in as my win for the week🫶🏼
This so clearly shows Paul's lack of education on the bible as a historical text. Whether or not your believe the Bible is the inerrant and holy word of God, there are still historical facets of the bible that are just factually true, like the fact that all the different books were written during different time periods and for different purposes. We wouldn't take a text from the 1700s and a text from today and interpret them the same way (think of all the modern people today who are confused about the works of Shakespeare, for example), and we shouldn't do that with the Bible either.
I almost choked hearing Paul ask about empathy and understanding while advocating for his right to completely reject empathy and understanding towards queer individuals
Paul and Morgan have been given the studies and told the statistics over and over. At this point, it's useless to discuss LGBT+ with them. You saw how as Tim pointed out they tapped danced out of the way when it came to slavery (even though the bondsman stuff is not honest or accurate) but they still want to hold on hating gays. I never understand how they don't understand the basic concept of 'they didn't wake up, choose a day and declared their sexuality' it's the same for heterosexuals as it is for homosexuals. You're born that way.
Respectfully Ebony. Actually homosexuality and heterosexuality are two very different things. Heterosexuality is a gift from God and HIS WAY. So if within marriage boundaries, it is good. Homosexuality is actually a sin and it is a sign that a spirit has somehow entered in and distorted God's way. I worked for years in a church that understood this. They worked in love and kindness and there were homosexuals who heard this truth and loved God more than themselves, and went through repentance AND being gently delivered from the unholy spirit. The problem with most people is they think love is some sentimental thing. God's love ALWAYS involves His Truth. True lovers of God AND man do not want to see anyone die in their sins. One of the most wonderful things in life is to be part of bringing a sinner to God in repentance and watching them be set free from the devil. This is NOT HATE, THIS IS BIBLICAL LOVE. The question we all need to ask ourselves is, Do I love with God's love which will truly save souls, or do i love with human love which can send people to hell.
@@simchahannah Good for you. As I don't believe in god, sin isn't a thing. People don't choose to be heterosexual or homosexual, they are born that way. It happens in ALL facets of nature, all through the animal kingdoms. Biblical love is hate by people who take an old book word for word, not understanding that the world, words and people change over time. Your biblical men thought slavery and women having not many rights was good but over time we realized that wasn't true. So why can those things be changed and it looked on as good in your eyes but homosexuals living their lives is still "bad".
the alcoholism comparison is also so incredibly flawed because we can literally prove beyond a reasonable doubt that alcoholism is detrimental and kills. the same can not be said for queerness (unless you are so intellectually dishonest its not even worth discussing it with you)
Of course I could love a homosexual person and tell them their lifestyle was wrong if their lifestyle was wrong. Like if someone who happens to be gay was addicted to drinking and gambling and it was ruining their life and destroying their family, I would definitely tell them it was wrong to continue that lifestyle without getting help! Confused at how Morgan thinks that you can go against your Creator by being created in a certain way. Who else would have created you that way??
One of the big reasons why I don't resonate with Christianity anymore is exactly because of the discouragement of asking questions and exploring your beliefs past the "you just need to have faith" point. Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, all these religions encourage discussion and questions! And they're FINE. They're losing members too but not at the same rate that Christian denominations are. It just scares people off when church leaders do things like "fire" public facing members who are questioning. (I know he was a volunteer but it's more or less the same thing). Young people are not dumb and seeing someone who is questioning get essentially dismissed just sends the message to them that questioning will eventually lead to dismissal, so why keep going at that point? So frustrating.
You could not be a regular attendant at any mainline Mosque or any (non reform) synagogue in America while publicly disputing the teachings of those mosques and synagogues online and not face pushback.
Oh, I feel terrible for saying it but: Not All Churches. The churches I grew up in welcomed discussion and questions. Several of the ministers I knew were ~thrilled~ when I had questions because it proved I was thinking about and considering my beliefs on a deeper level.
@@megnowosad4280agree. There are plenty of church contexts that favour questioning in faith development. I lead my congregations with that pattern, exploring faith and meaning. Not telling them what to think (how could I dare?)
May I suggest Biblical Judaism that also believes in Jesus Christ/Yeshua the Messiah. I have found such life and joy. And TRUTH. It is called Messianic Jews/Messianic Gentiles. The One New Man as was written about in the BIble.
I just want to say thank you for being transparent about the fear and panic “eternal” life brings up in you. I grew up in a Christian faith and that was the first concept I remember hitting me reaaaaal wrong. I started unpacking my afterlife beliefs in the last few months and it is TROUBLING. It’s really made me understand why religion is even a thing. It’s deep and dark and daunting for me. I appreciate you! Always nice to have a reminder that we aren’t alone
I don’t think they’d like hearing Christian’s and Jews worship the same god or that in Judaism it’s not discouraged to question one’s faith, but that chat would sure be interesting.
I work at a synagogue, and the Rabbi I work for is such a geek and knows a bit of biblical history. She would DEMOLISH Paul and Morgan, maybe even make them cry because they wouldn't understand the nuance and intricacies of the Torah.
The interruptions are driving me bananas. I once argued like this when I was a teenager but even if I did agree the guest is so articulate and able to defend his beliefs, that’s admirable
Tim annihilated him!! And it was fabulous! I truly believe the Bible just like mythology, is not meant to be taken so literal! Loved Tim…I think the main thing that Tim showed, is how incredibly uneducated Paul and Morgan are and sorry well not sorry, even Paul made a comment about how “Tim was too educated”! I also think by those giggles Morgan has a little (crushie poo) Morgan!! 💝 anyway they need to go back to college for a couple years and take some literature, philosophy and sociology courses imo! 😅 B you’re looking lovely and glowing! 💕 💕 my win for the week? I’m a librarian who hadn’t read a book in two years!! (due to immense stress and leaving abuse) when my anxious and sad I can’t listen to music or read…and I FINALLY finished a book in four hours!! Essential Ingredients was a good read! Ha
@@emmelinesprig489 you GET it!?? Ha so many didn’t get it? I feel too much reading or listening to music and I had to turn it all off. It was a good book and I cried happy stuff I basically didn’t want to feel ha thx for getting it!! 💕
Yeah in their recent video P&M basically said that when Tim stands before God on the day of judgement, they think that God will not be impressed with what "the scholars" have to say about the Bible, and therefore will not very impressed with Tim for relying heavily on the word of said scholars. God will basically just be impressed with...what the Bible says about the Bible. And let me l you, I was infuriated to hear them say that. Evangelicals, I've learned, really don't care much for scholars. Because scholars are a threat to their very carefully curated view of the Bible and Christianity.
@@CabsASMRif only theses evangelical hypocrites would even follow the Bible, they might have a point. But they don't. They cherry pick a few verses and disregard the rest. Tim has way more respect for the Bible than they do and they don't even realize it because they're so ignorant. I'd be surprised if they even ever read the whole Bible or even the whole new testament.
@MrSeedi76 Back when they were doing the talking with strangers segment Morgan told someone that reading the whole Bible is "very doable", so I can only assume that means she's done it. But then, who knows. The evangelical environment I grew up in heavily emphasized the importance of reading the entire thing. I myself have read through it twice, and let me tell you, doing so obliterated my fundamentalism. I think that if someone reads the entire Bible and still believes it's without error, they are either lying about their beliefs to save face OR they are HEAVILY dissociating when reading the problematic passages.
Paul’s argument for blocking Tim was confusing like you mentioned…but I grew up very conservative Christian and that argument reminded me a lot of my own upbringing. Christian parents are very quick to block out/remove situations or content from their children’s lives in an attempt to “protect them” from the world, instead of have discussions and get to the root of why something or someone should be “avoided” or (even better) how to peacefully coexist with secular people/environments. The block button can be seen as the epitome of conservative Christians “bubble button” if that makes sense😅
Does Paul not understand that intervention-style call outs are not the move? Even if it were from a loving support system, that shit is usually a last ditch effort to help someone. If you go to a gay person and “lovingly” tell them they are living in sin, of course it’s gonna come off pompous and judgy. Anyone would get defensive! In the same way Paul himself leans into defensiveness when others around him “lovingly call out” his bigotry in a polite way. Paul just got that moral hall monitor energy idk
It’s really problematic and culturally appropriative for Paul to find Hebrew text to be authorative Scripture but not consider at all the ways that the actually people whose heritage it is would interpret it
Omfg yes!!! Even though we understand the history and language and culture, fundies seem to think they know better. Only a small minority of Jews (less than 10%, the Ultra Orthodox) are not lgbtq affirming. Modern Orthodox, conservative, reconstructionist and reform all are lgbtq affirming. My rabbi is a trans guy.
I don't understand refusing to recognize a fellow Christian who follows Jesus. Tim is married in a very traditional sense and does not appear to be living in unrepentant sin. Not saying that's the only way to be Christian, but Tim seems in line with Evangelicals in most ways.
Tim and his wife did a reaction and talked about this and how they even waited until their wedding night. I am baffled at the arrogance to tell someone who strives to follow the way of Christ that they’re not a Christian. I was deeply indoctrinated and all in but even that was shocking for me
My theory as someone who is still a xtian who used to move in MUCH more conservative circles, is that there is no pleasing many of these people. I was, for example, a closer follower of the church and biblical rules than the leaders who were attacking me, but they still found things to complain about and to try to undermine my faith. I think it comes from a lack of having any coping skills or emotional understanding outside of their religion. Instead of being able to recognize that they're feeling threatened, perhaps, or they simply don't like another human, they feel they must insist the other is not a "real" xtian because they don't know any other way to create distance or to verbalize their hatred or even unease.
I'm so glad that I'm queer. I grew up in a fundamentalist home who was taught to believe that the Bible was THE word of God and to read the majority of passages LITERALLY and our form of "research" was reading other translated Bibles-no original language studies, no scholarly texts and interpretations, no looking into the history or culture-none of that... The one "sin" that always bugged me WAS being homosexual because all the other sins were affecting and harming others and/or yourself (stealing, taking people's lives, lying on others for malicious reasons, etc.), but loving another person was supposed to be a sin? And as I got older and couldn't suppress my queer identity any longer, that was the final straw that broke the camel's back for me as I started to ACTUALLY study the Bible and look up research papers on it and the original wording of it, which started my journey of breaking out of the fundamentalist mindset and beliefs.
Whoa!!! Thank you for pausing to explain more about the MD/AOG/men's conference scandal. I only saw those first few clips and didn’t realize that more drama went on behind the scenes!!
My favorite saying is "if it's not a salvation issue, why is it an issue?" If something is not causing harm to a person's walk with Jesus, why would you intervene? I will never understand why people think it is loving to push a queer person out of the church. Isn't pushing someone away from Jesus the exact opposite of what we should be doing? If sin separates us from Jesus, then pushing someone out of the church and away from Jesus is inherently a sin.
I belonged to a church that loved the homosexuals by telling them the Truth, IN LOVE. We had very wise counselors who understood that sin is caused by a spirit not of God. The counselors knew how to sit in love with people and share the truth of repentance AND deliverance. It was wonderful to see people set free from something that was not of God, and then live a life honoring God and so much more happier. Of course not everyone has the gift of deliverance and you have to be careful. And not everyone has the supernatural gift of love. I was the children and youth pastor. I was so happy when one of the young homosexual men, prayed, repented and was totally delivered and later married and was so happy when his children were born. He and his wife became teachers of the children in Sunday School, both of them living the lives God created them for. I have also been a part of helping a man who became a women to repent, turn their life over to God, begin walking as a man, what God created Him to be, and eventually through a miracle, married, and was so happy. He knew he was honoring God and was given such a miracle. This is the problem with christianity. God still gives miracles today if we believe and trust.
Happy birthday, B! 🎉 I turn 30 in July, I’m ready for it too. Be gone, 20s! My win for the week is that I got a promotion & a raise at work 😊 I watched TNE’s reaction to P&M’s 24 Hours With video. It was glorious watching Tim’s wife decide not to say anything at all because she couldn’t think of anything non-dehumanizing to say 😂 really appreciate both you & Tim’s educated viewpoints.
I fist pumped every time Tim took Paul to task. I love to see such a nuanced, educated take on all of the inconsistencies in the bible and still reconciling it with your faith
1:15:37 If you walk through their arguments logically, it proves that Paul and Morgan and Christians who "believe" as they do, don't actually believe what they say they do. They are arguing that people with unrepentant sin go to hell after death, and that queer people are sinners who need to repent. However, they insist on continuing teaching that they know causes the deaths of queer people. So they are deliberately, according to their own teachings, causing the deaths of people knowing they will go to hell. If they ACTUALLY believed that queer people were in sin, and they ACTUALLY wanted them to be saved, they would be interested in prolonging the lives of queer people for as long as possible so they would have more chances to repent. They are according to their own theology, either maliciously trying to send as many people to hell as possible while calling it love, or they don't actually believe queer people need to repent.
As someone who was raised super fundamentalist, then completely rejected religion once I grew up and moved out, this was the first video of yours that was suggested to me. When I heard that you yourself were a Christian I almost clicked away, because I know that often hearing from Christians in a way that is not critical of Christianity (I watch a lot of Mickey Atkins’ Fundamentalist content) is triggering for me. I’m glad I stayed. You have such a welcoming energy and so much passion for genuine connection and and knowledge. I loved hearing what you had to say about the power of saying “I don’t know”. I’m glad I stumbled upon you in my journey of healing :) ❤️🩹
Does Paul never use literary devices? I highly doubt he’s ever carried a large wooden cross anywhere. So, am I right in saying that May 27 is your birthday? That’s my mother’s birthday. And my best friend’s birthday. And Henry Kissinger’s birthday… anyway happy birthday! My Win for the Week… I’m a lot less feverish than I was earlier in the week.
I’d pay money to see Paul try to live out biblical instructions on a daily basis! It is! Happy birthday to your mom and friend! 🎉🥳 And that’s good, glad the fever is going down!
I really love your honesty about the fear of eternal life, that was my big first sticking point with deconstruction, it makes me feel incredibly anxious as well. thanks for sharing about that. I don't identify as christian anymore but I really enjoy watching your content about these things and these looks at how you're able to still so fully enjoy and get value from your faith while still also having a lot of the same things in your head that were sort of "shelf breakers" for me to use the exmormon slang for it. I think that's really cool
Incredibly chilling to hear Morgan say that any non-affirming theology is going to be deadly to someone who wants to live in sin. That is....victim blaming at it's most diabolical. "The problem is not our theology; it's how they perceive it. It's them." My God. How would you even respond to something like that?? On a happier note, you look beautiful B! I love your dress. Very boho-chic. I dig. Also, I wish these boys would stop interrupting each other XD Maybe that will get better in part 2. Fascinating convo.
Tim: points out how obsessed evangelicals are with sex Paul: denies it Also Paul: doubles down and quotes more scripture about sex and sexual immorality 🙄
It's kind of weird that Paul didn't mention that Jesus standard when it came to marriage basically was: if you are married now, stay married. But if you are not married now, do NOT get married because the end is at hand. Same thing with children. Marriage and children are for those who cannot stay celibate. If you are interested in sexuallity and the bible I would recommend Jennifer Bird. She is a bible scholar, has written books on the topic, and she has a youtube channel that goes by her name if you want to find her.
WFTW: I had dedicated my latest book collecting my webcomic to my former Art teacher from High School. She received her copy and was so touched by the dedication, and loved hearing how she made an impact on my life in her early years being a teacher. It was great to bond with my old mentor that way. In the first ten seconds, I think the guy talking to Paul here is great! I want to see someone make Paul THINK about the stuff he spouts all the time! It's BEYOND time that Paul gets completely challenged on his stodgy, ridiculous standards. "Judge with Love"? Yeah right, not these two! * "Grow in your beliefs"? Please!! You're doing it for views and clout, NOTHING ELSE!! Get real, you two!! * Tim saying "That's the first step in Deconstructing!" about blueberry coffee..... LMAO!!!! * Tim is GREAT!!! Love how he deconstructs Paul's overly-simplified answer! This is the challenging I have been waiting for! Love how Tim points out so many gray areas and complications in such a wide brushstroke answer! * Paul is waiting for his "gotcha" moment and Tim isn't giving him an opportunity. It's so delicious to watch! * Mark Driscoll is a moron! His parishioners need to kick him out of his church! * Good question on "Traditional", B! We all know Paul's definition is pretty skewed! * Paul is DROWNING in the discussion about LGBTQ+ people! He's grasping at straws and Tim is pulling his answers apart like a Tinker-Toy tower! * See ya in Part II :)
B: thanks for saying what wash books purpose was. IDK that to the extent you explained & i love learning stuff like that to deepen my biblical reading. One of many reasons I love your channel!
After a hectic work at week, I slept alot on Saturday, but apart from brain fry on a couple of occasions, I coped really well. I am so happy because in the past such weeks chipped away at my mental health. And with my current job that doesn't seem to be the case.
Thirty! 🎂 I’m old enough that when I turned thirty was when we weren’t trusting anyone over 30! (The ‘60s&’70s). Good luck trusting yourself! As a member of the small but mighty Radical Christian Left (Episcopal Branch), I enjoy the New Evangelicals, and try to tolerate and love in my heart Paul and Morgan.
Don’t miss part 2! th-cam.com/video/dEGk_U8fP2Q/w-d-xo.htmlsi=adHnt6u_rJcXFZal
What I never understood about Christians like Paul and Morgan is why they care more about what the Apostle Paul says than what Jesus says.
That’s an interesting thing to point out, they really do reference Paul’s teachings quite frequently. Jesus not so much unless they’re misinterpreting his words to condemn divorce.
Yes!!!!! Exactly!!!!!! They use Paul to spew hatred that Jesus would never say.
It’s probably bc Apostle Paul has the same name as Paul, so I’m sure he reads those passages soooo much 😅 he’s just obsessed with his own name
I'd go so far as to say they are very selective with what Paul says also. Romans for example, where they quote Romans 1 about homosexuality, but then just totally ignore Romans 2. Which means they (I'm guessing deliberately) miss Paul's whole point and kind of turn Paul's own argument into the opposite. It's all very selective quotes they use.
Because most of the NT is written by Paul.
This dude is saying everything I have ever wanted to say to Paul so much more eloquently than I could.
YES lol I get too heated and triggered with him and lose my cool which isn't a good look 😅
I had not heard of him before, but already on the edge of fandom
Exactly this. It was such a relief to watch this
Yessss this was so satisfying to watch. I have never of this guy but I’m a huge fan now.
Tim’s knowledge feels PhD level and Paul feels to be middle school. I wonder how Paul felt deep down having these convos with Tim
Paul and Morgan seem like adults who never outgrew church youth group.
That's what happens when you're raised in extreme religion...its almost like it stunts your brain ...similar to people who find addiction at a young age. These are just coronations between addiction and fundie religion that I've noticed and picked up on spending time with fundies and addicts 🤔 there's something there
We can all very clearly see how Paul feels deep down. He has lots of physical tells when it comes to his discomfort and insecurity.
@@jaimesfollyExactly! I couldn’t put my finger on it, but THAT IS IT. They’re emotionally and socially stunted. Their immaturity is in their staunch belief of their own infallibility, claiming it’s based in God’s infallible word, and it prevents them from really hearing and digesting the ideas of others. Listening skills are a critical asset and one worth P&M making an investment in.
Apparently Tim has a video looking at the episode
Paul is so out of his depth. It’s almost uncomfortable to watch except it’s not because Tim is so kind and incredible.
He also has never studied the history of the Bible in depth and is really becoming aware just how much discussion there is around it.
Anyone who says the Bible is to be taken literally but isn't incredibly skilled in at least Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic is a joke. The English Bible is an adaptation of an adaptation of an adaptation translation of a translation of a translation. There's a lot different than the initial written text. (And that's before you get to the party where a bunch of old white guys got together and decided which religious writings were going to be the official history and doctrine, and got rid of the ones that they didn't like, especially if they had to do with the role of women.)
That’s true, but I’d say P&M are arguing something even beyond that, to take their Bible literally *and* to distrust what the people who have studied the text in their original languages have to say.
this needs to be shouted from the mountains
Paul: "I'm not saying homosexuality and alcoholism are the same but..."
*Proceeds to directly compare homosexuality and alcoholism*
Paul: I want people to go back to the word and figure out what it says
Progressive Christians: It says here to love one another above everything except for loving God.
Paul: No, not like that.
Happy Birthday!! As a queer person I appreciate the way Tim went about answering their questions with regards to LGBTQ issues, specifically when he made it clear that queerness and alcoholism aren't the same thing. It's a very frustrating comparison. I know for me, I didn't grow up in any kind of church community and still struggled with my identity and mental health issues. I'd have imagine going weekly to a place that says your feelings are sinful would make that 100 times worse. Also maybe it's just me, but it feels weird to hear Paul say "the LGBT," it feels like when people say "the Blacks" instead of Black people.
I hate that too!
It seems dehumanizing
You just created a false equivalency between homosexuals and blacks???
I always laugh at how every single time Paul no longer has ammunition for something he immediately pivots to something else. It’s classic abusive behaviour.
Emotional abuse is a spectrum and most ppl don't even realize they are emotionally abusive. This is why therapy and learning better communication skills would be highly beneficial to paul and everyone around him.
It also shows how poorly he can back up his beliefs! It’s embarrassing, really.
What stands out to me is how much better informed Tim is than Paul. It's amazing how even just a little bit of wiggle room allows for people to search out truth, in my opinion. I'm not Christian any more but I appreciate Tim's takes - I'm just not in a place any more where I think the Bible is a guide and should provide your morals, but I'm glad Tim's view is more focussed on what harm his actions cause.
In Tim’s most recent video he said he felt bad as a human that the majority of the comments on P&M video were pointing out how educated Tim is vs how ignorant of Christian theology and history Paul seems to be. He is a really good guy and as a follower of Christ it’s like a breath of fresh air to know he is representing my faith is such a beautiful, loving, and intelligent way.
I pray you come back to Jesus. He will not give up on you.
@@sambailie4773 with respect, comments like this do nothing to convey the love of Jesus. If you feel you should pray for someone, great. But to come on here and make this comment feels more like a southern “bless your heart” than genuine love of God. I’m not sure your intent, but on the other side of you it’s like a drive by egging. There’s a reason people no longer care about “thoughts and prayers”. Please know this is coming from someone who believes God hears my prayers.
Honestly that’s my biggest takeaway from this series. Paul and Morgan don’t seem to be super well informed or even curious about their own faith. It’s telling.
@@sambailie4773 Hi! I trust your heart is in a good place, but you don't have to. Being free from religion is one of the best things that ever happened to me. ❤
Paul and Morgan are so incredibly ignorant. I know it’s not polite to say that but they truly know so little about anything at all. The way Paul said that Tim wouldn’t be comfortable in a “traditional” church because he’s affirming when fundamentalist churches reject most liturgical tradition, and mainline churches that preserve the tradition by and far are affirming. Not to mention how little Paul knows about the theology of his own faith. Paul and Morgan really shouldn’t have a platform but since they do I’m glad that they’re bringing more intelligent and informed people on to speak in this case.
I totally agree!! I have no problem saying Paul and Morgan are ignorant, because they are. I studied religion in university and learned a lot about Judaism, and how it reflects upon Christ’s teachings and Christianity in general, and I feel like it’s literally so easy to know more they just don’t want to look into it. They call themselves experts and give this advice and preach, but they literally don’t know what they’re talking about. No nuance, no history, no theology! It’s maddening!
I also use to be very ignorant I was raised to be. Ignorance is bliss but I would nvr go back.
It just shows how much these evangelical/ fundie “Christians” have strayed away from the teaching of Christ. I don’t even think these evangelicals know the Lord’s Prayer by heart.
Agree, I suspect that church beliefs and set ups that Paul calls 'traditional' are less than 200 years old, whereas there are families of churches with tradition going back thousand plus years. But they were brought up to see those as not even Christians,.
I think of ignorance as a neutral, a before data added situation. I didn't know x, now I do. I think the extreme literalist/inerrancy /fundies are in the minus scale they are not ignorant but worse than that they have been given information that stops them questioning the value of data, of daring to think differently. Until they can argue that grass is red.
Agree. By evangelical standards even Paul is really showing he doesn't know much. I've done a bit of training, and can tell he is really lacking here. He gets some of the evangelical positions wrong, and doesn't have the critical thought processes that you develop when go are exposed to more academic neutral thinking.
It all comes over as judgemental and his own opinion. Much of what he says is only backed up by his own assertions of him reading the bible ("getting into the word", as he says) but he admits to avoiding and openly dismissing academic material that may challenge his interpretation.
You DID NOT just release two long videos in a row. Oh, hell yeah! YOU ARE MY HERO. *grabs kettle corn*
It’s you and me for the next two and a half hours! 🤘🏼
It's really frustrating to hear Paul go from talking about queer inclusion to porn. This is a gross conflation between the two things. They are NOT similar AT ALL. That felt very purposeful and sinister from Paul. Don't do that.
The problem is that it's not purposeful or (intentionally) sinister. When you're in that evangelical space you truly believe that LGBTQ+, pornograpy, pedophilia, etc are all in the same category - departures from God's intended sexual ethic. They don't see the damage they cause by equating the two because fundamentalist evangelicals see them all as equally bad and to be villainized. It's all an intentional turning away from God's plan to them. Granted, I absolutely believe that there are people who use fundamentalist Christianity as a cudgel who don't actually believe the way a true believer does in regards to sexual ethic but there's no way to tell someone's true intentions from the outside.
I am glad you called out that very, very stupid argument that Morgan made. That she thinks anyone would feel badly if their church told them they were sinful. Tim had JUST EXPLAINED that this only happens to queer people. These types of churches increase suicidal ideation in queer people, and all she can say is, “BUT SIN!!!!!”
I never knew about the New Evangelicals, so i didn't understand why everyone was so excited for this collab. Definitely get it now, the New Evangelicals are people i would have seriously appreciated having around when I was growing up
My win for the week is the love of my life proposed! Excited to see what the future holds for us
when Tim said that people treat the bible as the 4th trinity...dang that hit hard. I've only been in circles that are super strict with the bible, but this man describing it as a useful tool kind of blew my mind. I've never thought of the bible as a tool. for whatever reason this gives me motivation to revisit it.
also win for the week is that I've started so many IV's in people! I've been afraid of doing IV's but I've been getting better at them. hope whoever's reading this has a good day ☺️
I get the sense that Paul listens to respond and not to understand
My win for the week is I moved into a new rental house with my friend and its a disabled friendly property so I have more freedom to move around. The owner put in bars and a ramp for me to make it accessible so I'm so thankful.
That’s huge win!! So happy for you
Thank u
Wow that is such a big deal! im glad you will have more freedom to get around. My win is I just got a car for the first time in 9 years and I am LOVING being able to drive my kids wherever they want. Previously they couldn’t do any sports because we didn’t have access. Not the same as your situation but both related to mobility and freedom
@@sadiefalco4673 that's also a huge win. Congratulations
When I watched Tim's reaction livestream I told my husband that Tim "knows the context of the Bible like B Haney."
I think the frustrating thing is that Tim knows so much that Paul doesn’t have any information that Tim isn’t aware of that will convince him. But Paul doesn’t have the mindset that he could be wrong, so he won’t listen to Tim.
Yeah that's how I saw it too. Tim seems like he would be open to learning and shifting his beliefs if Paul had actual evidence. Paul's beliefs just seem so fragile as if accepting one of Tim's beliefs would cause all of his beliefs to crumble
RE: lgbtq+ stuff: I agree Paul is grasping at straws to affirm his position. I think a good question for Paul would be, how do you invest in the lives of lgbtq+ ppl beyond zeroing in on what you perceive as “taboo” about them? I would want to know if Paul has any lgbtq+ friends, or if he’s met an lgbtq+ couple who are thriving together. You can’t love someone when you only see a label and don’t have the flexibility to discover who they really are and why they are worth celebrating.
Tim eats Paul’s lunch while Morgan giggles. Goodness. Tim highlights how stubborn, arrogant, and uneducated Paul is. Almost painful to watch. B - you look positively beautiful! Glowing like crazy!
Great reaction! I'm always perplexed by how Paul and Morgan are the ones who edit their videos but somehow manage to make themselves come off unfavourably.
paul is so snarky in this one and tim handles it with so much grace
Hot take, but I think this is why people need to stop saying that "unaliving yourself is a choice" because for the majority of cases, people don't unalive themselves for no reason... How you treat others is INCREDIBLY important as we ARE social creatures. SOCIAL ISOLATION in the old days was LITERALLY classified as a form of TORTURE!!
Let that sink in...
YES! Self-unaliving is collective murder. No one would blame a victim of starvation or dehydration for their own death. It would clearly be caused by neglect from
their family, community, and/or society.
TNE has an excellent, must-watch three-part series on the history of the conflict in Palestine. I binged it over the past few days. Cannot recommend it enough.
Hey I'd be interested to watch that. What's TNE stand for?
@@que278martinez5 The New Evangelicals I'll wager
@@que278martinez5 The New Evangelicals
@@que278martinez5The New Evangelicals
@@que278martinez5the new evangelicals 😊
Paul's condescending "I'm glad to hear you say that"s every time Tim said something Paul could squint at and consider agreement with him were infuriating. Like he went into it expecting Tim to support drug-fueled public orgies or porn in elementary schools or something and was pleasantly surprised when he said he considers hook-up culture unwise. Shut up, Paul.
lol it was almost like he didn’t know what to do with that, like he begrudgingly conceded when their views were somewhat in line with each other.
And also I kept thinking "you're not the final authority on truth, Paul, so it doesn't mean jack shit if you approve of what he thinks" 🙄
@@Nicaea7probably one of the reasons Tim was so relaxed. Who cares what theses two TH-camrs think?
Win for the week. I finally had a doctor who not only knew about my extremely rare illness but also did further testing and is trying some new stuff to help. As someone with massive medical trauma, this is huge.
I’m so happy you’re receiving the medical management and treatment you need. 🫶🏻
I absolutely HATE the way that fundamentalists like P&M debate and process information. They literally do not know how to approach a conversation with an open mind and are so unaware of how their beliefs lead them down paths that are illogical. It seems like this whole conversation is just Paul trying to get Tim to say “oh actually my beliefs don’t make sense and you’re way is better”.
Re: comparing homosexuality to alcoholism:
"Mom, Dad, I have news for you. I know this will be hard to understand, but I've struggled with something for a long time. I don't expect you to approve, but I ask you to please respect my decision and do not judge me while pretending to call out my sinful lifestyle. After careful reflection and deep prayer, I've decided to become an alcoholic."
A conversation that no one has ever had.
It’s more so “I’m embracing my alcoholism”. Point still stands, but I think that’s a better comparison lol
@Nomarcaper not really, since Paul conflates homosexuality with the act. So only if you're embracing your alcoholism even though you've never had a drink. Most teens that come out to their parents are still virgins.
@@angelawossname I think you missed my point. I’m not disagreeing with OPs comment. I’m just saying if they want even try to have a rebuttal, that would be a “better” argument, which still doesn’t work.
@@Nomarcaper oh, I got your point, I'm just disagreeing that yours is the better argument. I think OP's comparison was better.
@@angelawossname ah, that’s fine. But I disagree. I don’t know what virginity has to do with this, and virginity is a social construct. A lot of times, those who are LGBT have had some sort of same sex interactions, regardless of it was sex or not. “Embracing being an alcoholic” is saying you’ve had something to drink, and it makes you feel good, so you want to continue. Same with “embracing my sexuality”. The individual knows it’s right for them, and makes them feel better to embrace who they are.
Again, we are debating a shitty argument that doesn’t work.
The entire premise of this series if flawed because Paul is a deeply uncurious, inflexible person. He doesn't want to find common ground, he wants to argue and doesn't have the intellect and research to back it up. Tim is fascinating and Paul is so exhausting to listen to.
THIS.
Yes new to both of them but spot on- I know Paul- well in the sense that I was raised in an evangelical church that taught me that their beliefs were correct and everyone else was lost. Who is this Tim- I'm seriously curious now
Yes! I must admit I like this 24 Hrs because Paul is being forced to think instead of just react. It's quite refreshing to see.
My Win For the Week: Enjoying Quiet Time while everyone is asleep but Me
my win for the week is that i had the past two weeks off from work! it was very rejuvenating :)
Happy Birthday, B!!
Happy Birthday, B! Welcome to The 30s Club, it's pretty cool over here! 🎉💖🎂
I love TNE’s refusal to get trapped in Paul’s questions and introduce nuance but stay calm and confident
Did I just watch TNE’s reaction to the video yesterday? Yes. Am I going to watch both parts of yours anyways? Heck yeah!
If you really want to go video inception, watch Paul and Morgan’s reaction to TNE’s reaction as well!!! 😂
Lol... Morgan's "cursive blase voice"... that one was fantastic!
"You can get bent" *chef's kiss*
59:10 I've heard this talking point before, that "the apparent contradictions don't affect any significant doctrines", and I think I just figured out what got glossed over in this part of the conversation. The contradictions *do* affect a doctrine that evangelical Christianity, specifically, has made core to itself: the inerrancy of Scripture.
If, instead of inventing increasingly convoluted ways to harmonize the contradictions, we accept them for what they are - and therefore, accept that the Bible can contain factual and possibly doctrinal error - that changes everything.
The Bible doesn't really teach a doctrine therefore it can't contain doctrinal errors by default. What people don't realize is that the authors and the people who compiled these different scriptures into one book weren't dumber than us, they just thought very differently from us. They never seemed to care about contradictions between the texts because that was irrelevant to them. Even if they noticed them, they obviously didn't think it was a problem. How much easier could they have made things if they had, as Marcion suggested, only chosen one gospel instead of 4. Then modern scholars come along and being unable to even understand the mindset of the authors (because modern scholarship is based on things we take for granted, like Greek philosophy and its concept of ideas, as well as formal logic, etc - all things largely unknown to the authors of the Bible and not a part of their worldview) "discover" all these differences in nuance and emphasis between the gospels and declare those to be problematic or invent ideas like an "evolution of doctrine" from one gospel to the next - which would mean we would have to be able to bring the gospels into a clear time line and even that is largely based on pure speculation.
Ok this is my fave 24hrs as someone who believes in God & loves your channel for some of the same reasons. I love that 1. He’s so knowledgeable/realistic 2. He’s looked into so much of the context from that time, from the most reliable sources, looked into the difference in what certain words even meant. I LOVE that!! When my dad was alive he had the strongest faith & he was always questioning & learning like this as well. For as much as Paul argues, it’s interesting how few deeper points he has to debate or carry his thoughts.
As a gay person, I want to thank hetero Christians like Tim for doing this work. That’s how you do allyship, by taking his encyclopedic knowledge of the Bible and biblical scholarship and using it to topple the problematic belief systems that underpin the continued oppression of myself and my community. It doesn’t matter if Paul and Morgan change their minds, at this point I think it’s fruitless to hope for that, they have too much invested in their worldview. The goal is to change the minds of the viewers.
Tim would disagree on the question whether it's hopeless. He said himself that he empathizes with Paul because he was just like him in the past. The new evangelicals only started around 2016. Tim deconstructed because of the obsession of evangelicals with Trump.
My win for the week is that I did my first long drive (5 hours) with my 9 month old to see my beautiful niece and sister, and a few tears but we made it! And now I know we can do it, we can keep doing it!!
Yayyy congratulations!! That’s a huge mom win! ❤
Just got a car for the first time in 9 years, o have a 13 month old and big trips are scary. I’m glad you are accomplished that !!
@@coll4455 thank you!! It certainly feels like it
Win for the week: My husband and I rescued a little baby kitten that we found in the middle of the road! He's the sweetest boy and we're taking care of him until my best friend adopts him 😊
There is no hate like Christian love
This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
John:15:12
But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Matthew:5:44
For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
Matthew:5:46
@@MrSeedi76unfortunately too many ignore all Jesus said about love because it would get in the way of judging or feeling superior
I had the same thought about Paul saying Tim wouldn't be happy in a traditional Christian church. That's so vague. Oh you think Tim wouldn't be happy as a catholic? He wouldn't be happy being greek orthodox? OK. Paul apparently has no understanding of the vastness of Christian tradition.
He has tunnel vision with his fundamentalist/evangelical Christian belief. Most would consider that sect a more extreme sect of Christianity, I think.
I think he could be quite happy as an Episcopalian. Is the only place I could go from Catholicism if I ever go.
lol ya, Tim would probably be more comfortable in an Eastern Orthodox Church than a Protestant church. Let’s please frame “traditional” properly.
Paul's idea of traditional church is likely the less than 200yr old literalist, inerrancy faith. The rest of us are not true Christian
1:02:13 this conversation is interesting because as university in religious studies about Judaism it was said that ancient people did in fact have a solid sense of the metaphor and myth vs reality. But during that period they didn’t feel the need to make a differentiation because the cultural importance was equal
Paul is fighting to keep up intellectually and it’s painful to watch lol. I don’t know how he’s satisfied hearing at Tim’s well reasoned and argued points and responding with circular arguments and gotcha attempts
I just have to say.. hearing you talk about getting severely anxious over the concept of time never ending was really comforting. I have struggled with that since I was a child, but others in my Christian circle growing up never voiced those same fears.. it was nice to feel a little validated that yeah… even if I’m a Christian, there are so many things I don’t know and get anxious over. And that’s okay..I’ll go ahead and throw that in as my win for the week🫶🏼
Excited for this reaction! Also excited for your reaction to Bethany and ZOTS and maybe the accompanying drama with the fundie snark subreddit
This so clearly shows Paul's lack of education on the bible as a historical text. Whether or not your believe the Bible is the inerrant and holy word of God, there are still historical facets of the bible that are just factually true, like the fact that all the different books were written during different time periods and for different purposes. We wouldn't take a text from the 1700s and a text from today and interpret them the same way (think of all the modern people today who are confused about the works of Shakespeare, for example), and we shouldn't do that with the Bible either.
I almost choked hearing Paul ask about empathy and understanding while advocating for his right to completely reject empathy and understanding towards queer individuals
Paul and Morgan have been given the studies and told the statistics over and over. At this point, it's useless to discuss LGBT+ with them. You saw how as Tim pointed out they tapped danced out of the way when it came to slavery (even though the bondsman stuff is not honest or accurate) but they still want to hold on hating gays. I never understand how they don't understand the basic concept of 'they didn't wake up, choose a day and declared their sexuality' it's the same for heterosexuals as it is for homosexuals. You're born that way.
Respectfully Ebony. Actually homosexuality and heterosexuality are two very different things. Heterosexuality is a gift from God and HIS WAY. So if within marriage boundaries, it is good. Homosexuality is actually a sin and it is a sign that a spirit has somehow entered in and distorted God's way. I worked for years in a church that understood this. They worked in love and kindness and there were homosexuals who heard this truth and loved God more than themselves, and went through repentance AND being gently delivered from the unholy spirit. The problem with most people is they think love is some sentimental thing. God's love ALWAYS involves His Truth. True lovers of God AND man do not want to see anyone die in their sins. One of the most wonderful things in life is to be part of bringing a sinner to God in repentance and watching them be set free from the devil. This is NOT HATE, THIS IS BIBLICAL LOVE. The question we all need to ask ourselves is, Do I love with God's love which will truly save souls, or do i love with human love which can send people to hell.
@@simchahannah Good for you. As I don't believe in god, sin isn't a thing. People don't choose to be heterosexual or homosexual, they are born that way. It happens in ALL facets of nature, all through the animal kingdoms. Biblical love is hate by people who take an old book word for word, not understanding that the world, words and people change over time. Your biblical men thought slavery and women having not many rights was good but over time we realized that wasn't true. So why can those things be changed and it looked on as good in your eyes but homosexuals living their lives is still "bad".
the alcoholism comparison is also so incredibly flawed because we can literally prove beyond a reasonable doubt that alcoholism is detrimental and kills. the same can not be said for queerness (unless you are so intellectually dishonest its not even worth discussing it with you)
Of course I could love a homosexual person and tell them their lifestyle was wrong if their lifestyle was wrong. Like if someone who happens to be gay was addicted to drinking and gambling and it was ruining their life and destroying their family, I would definitely tell them it was wrong to continue that lifestyle without getting help!
Confused at how Morgan thinks that you can go against your Creator by being created in a certain way. Who else would have created you that way??
💯
One of the big reasons why I don't resonate with Christianity anymore is exactly because of the discouragement of asking questions and exploring your beliefs past the "you just need to have faith" point. Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, all these religions encourage discussion and questions! And they're FINE. They're losing members too but not at the same rate that Christian denominations are. It just scares people off when church leaders do things like "fire" public facing members who are questioning. (I know he was a volunteer but it's more or less the same thing). Young people are not dumb and seeing someone who is questioning get essentially dismissed just sends the message to them that questioning will eventually lead to dismissal, so why keep going at that point? So frustrating.
You could not be a regular attendant at any mainline Mosque or any (non reform) synagogue in America while publicly disputing the teachings of those mosques and synagogues online and not face pushback.
Oh, I feel terrible for saying it but: Not All Churches.
The churches I grew up in welcomed discussion and questions. Several of the ministers I knew were ~thrilled~ when I had questions because it proved I was thinking about and considering my beliefs on a deeper level.
@@megnowosad4280agree. There are plenty of church contexts that favour questioning in faith development. I lead my congregations with that pattern, exploring faith and meaning. Not telling them what to think (how could I dare?)
May I suggest Biblical Judaism that also believes in Jesus Christ/Yeshua the Messiah. I have found such life and joy. And TRUTH. It is called Messianic Jews/Messianic Gentiles. The One New Man as was written about in the BIble.
I just want to say thank you for being transparent about the fear and panic “eternal” life brings up in you. I grew up in a Christian faith and that was the first concept I remember hitting me reaaaaal wrong. I started unpacking my afterlife beliefs in the last few months and it is TROUBLING. It’s really made me understand why religion is even a thing. It’s deep and dark and daunting for me.
I appreciate you! Always nice to have a reminder that we aren’t alone
I want Paul and Morgan to do a 24 hours with a Rabbi
I don’t think they’d like hearing Christian’s and Jews worship the same god or that in Judaism it’s not discouraged to question one’s faith, but that chat would sure be interesting.
I work at a synagogue, and the Rabbi I work for is such a geek and knows a bit of biblical history. She would DEMOLISH Paul and Morgan, maybe even make them cry because they wouldn't understand the nuance and intricacies of the Torah.
This would be brilliant!!!
I want them to talk to someone who isn't a "non-denominational" evangelical Christians (baptists who don't want to label themselves).
Oy vey.
The interruptions are driving me bananas. I once argued like this when I was a teenager but even if I did agree the guest is so articulate and able to defend his beliefs, that’s admirable
Tim annihilated him!! And it was fabulous! I truly believe the Bible just like mythology, is not meant to be taken so literal! Loved Tim…I think the main thing that Tim showed, is how incredibly uneducated Paul and Morgan are and sorry well not sorry, even Paul made a comment about how “Tim was too educated”! I also think by those giggles Morgan has a little (crushie poo) Morgan!! 💝
anyway
they need to go back to college for a couple years and take some literature, philosophy and sociology courses imo! 😅
B you’re looking lovely and glowing! 💕 💕
my win for the week? I’m a librarian who hadn’t read a book in two years!! (due to immense stress and leaving abuse) when my anxious and sad I can’t listen to music or read…and I FINALLY finished a book in four hours!! Essential Ingredients was a good read! Ha
Congrats!! The feeling of finally enjoying reading again after years is just bliss ✨🤓💛
@@emmelinesprig489 you GET it!?? Ha so many didn’t get it? I feel too much reading or listening to music and I had to turn it all off. It was a good book and I cried happy stuff I basically didn’t want to feel ha thx for getting it!! 💕
Yeah in their recent video P&M basically said that when Tim stands before God on the day of judgement, they think that God will not be impressed with what "the scholars" have to say about the Bible, and therefore will not very impressed with Tim for relying heavily on the word of said scholars. God will basically just be impressed with...what the Bible says about the Bible.
And let me l you, I was infuriated to hear them say that. Evangelicals, I've learned, really don't care much for scholars. Because scholars are a threat to their very carefully curated view of the Bible and Christianity.
@@CabsASMRif only theses evangelical hypocrites would even follow the Bible, they might have a point. But they don't. They cherry pick a few verses and disregard the rest. Tim has way more respect for the Bible than they do and they don't even realize it because they're so ignorant. I'd be surprised if they even ever read the whole Bible or even the whole new testament.
@MrSeedi76 Back when they were doing the talking with strangers segment Morgan told someone that reading the whole Bible is "very doable", so I can only assume that means she's done it. But then, who knows. The evangelical environment I grew up in heavily emphasized the importance of reading the entire thing. I myself have read through it twice, and let me tell you, doing so obliterated my fundamentalism. I think that if someone reads the entire Bible and still believes it's without error, they are either lying about their beliefs to save face OR they are HEAVILY dissociating when reading the problematic passages.
Paul’s argument for blocking Tim was confusing like you mentioned…but I grew up very conservative Christian and that argument reminded me a lot of my own upbringing. Christian parents are very quick to block out/remove situations or content from their children’s lives in an attempt to “protect them” from the world, instead of have discussions and get to the root of why something or someone should be “avoided” or (even better) how to peacefully coexist with secular people/environments. The block button can be seen as the epitome of conservative Christians “bubble button” if that makes sense😅
I’ve been waiting for your Zelph reaction, can’t wait! Happy birthday 🎉
Hi! Thanks so much for this vid 🙏🙏
Thanks for doing this episode with Paul and Morgan! I really enjoyed hearing your insight 😊
Does Paul not understand that intervention-style call outs are not the move? Even if it were from a loving support system, that shit is usually a last ditch effort to help someone. If you go to a gay person and “lovingly” tell them they are living in sin, of course it’s gonna come off pompous and judgy. Anyone would get defensive! In the same way Paul himself leans into defensiveness when others around him “lovingly call out” his bigotry in a polite way. Paul just got that moral hall monitor energy idk
I love Tim!!!!!! Loving seeing this. Thank you!!!
Paul is aloof cos he can't actually respond properly. He can't match Tim!
It’s really problematic and culturally appropriative for Paul to find Hebrew text to be authorative Scripture but not consider at all the ways that the actually people whose heritage it is would interpret it
Omfg yes!!! Even though we understand the history and language and culture, fundies seem to think they know better. Only a small minority of Jews (less than 10%, the Ultra Orthodox) are not lgbtq affirming. Modern Orthodox, conservative, reconstructionist and reform all are lgbtq affirming. My rabbi is a trans guy.
You are truly glowing, pregnancy definitely agrees with you! 💚
Thank you ☺️
Girl, you’re glowing!! You look so pretty
I’ve also read that the creation story is also set up as a poem meaning that it wasn’t taken literally but something passed down
I don't understand refusing to recognize a fellow Christian who follows Jesus. Tim is married in a very traditional sense and does not appear to be living in unrepentant sin. Not saying that's the only way to be Christian, but Tim seems in line with Evangelicals in most ways.
Tim and his wife did a reaction and talked about this and how they even waited until their wedding night. I am baffled at the arrogance to tell someone who strives to follow the way of Christ that they’re not a Christian. I was deeply indoctrinated and all in but even that was shocking for me
My theory as someone who is still a xtian who used to move in MUCH more conservative circles, is that there is no pleasing many of these people. I was, for example, a closer follower of the church and biblical rules than the leaders who were attacking me, but they still found things to complain about and to try to undermine my faith. I think it comes from a lack of having any coping skills or emotional understanding outside of their religion. Instead of being able to recognize that they're feeling threatened, perhaps, or they simply don't like another human, they feel they must insist the other is not a "real" xtian because they don't know any other way to create distance or to verbalize their hatred or even unease.
Happy 30th!! My win for the week was treating myself and my boyfriend to a date with delicious food.
Tim you are so impressive… I always learn so much from you. Thank you
It’s quite interesting to see someone who really knows and studies the Bible and someone who just assumes the parts of a book he likes are true
45:02 in the reaction video he did with his wife, Tim said how this part and talking about his body made him very uncomfortable
I’ll bet it did! It seemed so weird and I don’t understand why they felt the need to comment on his body at least two times (that they showed anyway).
I'm so glad that I'm queer.
I grew up in a fundamentalist home who was taught to believe that the Bible was THE word of God and to read the majority of passages LITERALLY and our form of "research" was reading other translated Bibles-no original language studies, no scholarly texts and interpretations, no looking into the history or culture-none of that...
The one "sin" that always bugged me WAS being homosexual because all the other sins were affecting and harming others and/or yourself (stealing, taking people's lives, lying on others for malicious reasons, etc.), but loving another person was supposed to be a sin?
And as I got older and couldn't suppress my queer identity any longer, that was the final straw that broke the camel's back for me as I started to ACTUALLY study the Bible and look up research papers on it and the original wording of it, which started my journey of breaking out of the fundamentalist mindset and beliefs.
Whoa!!! Thank you for pausing to explain more about the MD/AOG/men's conference scandal. I only saw those first few clips and didn’t realize that more drama went on behind the scenes!!
Oh im so excited you're reacting to this! 🙌🫶
My favorite saying is "if it's not a salvation issue, why is it an issue?" If something is not causing harm to a person's walk with Jesus, why would you intervene? I will never understand why people think it is loving to push a queer person out of the church. Isn't pushing someone away from Jesus the exact opposite of what we should be doing? If sin separates us from Jesus, then pushing someone out of the church and away from Jesus is inherently a sin.
Because it doesn't have to be a "salvation issue" to be an issue.
I belonged to a church that loved the homosexuals by telling them the Truth, IN LOVE. We had very wise counselors who understood that sin is caused by a spirit not of God. The counselors knew how to sit in love with people and share the truth of repentance AND deliverance. It was wonderful to see people set free from something that was not of God, and then live a life honoring God and so much more happier. Of course not everyone has the gift of deliverance and you have to be careful. And not everyone has the supernatural gift of love. I was the children and youth pastor. I was so happy when one of the young homosexual men, prayed, repented and was totally delivered and later married and was so happy when his children were born. He and his wife became teachers of the children in Sunday School, both of them living the lives God created them for. I have also been a part of helping a man who became a women to repent, turn their life over to God, begin walking as a man, what God created Him to be, and eventually through a miracle, married, and was so happy. He knew he was honoring God and was given such a miracle. This is the problem with christianity. God still gives miracles today if we believe and trust.
Happy birthday, B! 🎉 I turn 30 in July, I’m ready for it too. Be gone, 20s! My win for the week is that I got a promotion & a raise at work 😊
I watched TNE’s reaction to P&M’s 24 Hours With video. It was glorious watching Tim’s wife decide not to say anything at all because she couldn’t think of anything non-dehumanizing to say 😂 really appreciate both you & Tim’s educated viewpoints.
I fist pumped every time Tim took Paul to task. I love to see such a nuanced, educated take on all of the inconsistencies in the bible and still reconciling it with your faith
1:15:37 If you walk through their arguments logically, it proves that Paul and Morgan and Christians who "believe" as they do, don't actually believe what they say they do.
They are arguing that people with unrepentant sin go to hell after death, and that queer people are sinners who need to repent.
However, they insist on continuing teaching that they know causes the deaths of queer people.
So they are deliberately, according to their own teachings, causing the deaths of people knowing they will go to hell.
If they ACTUALLY believed that queer people were in sin, and they ACTUALLY wanted them to be saved, they would be interested in prolonging the lives of queer people for as long as possible so they would have more chances to repent.
They are according to their own theology, either maliciously trying to send as many people to hell as possible while calling it love, or they don't actually believe queer people need to repent.
Happy belated birthday B💙 I hope you have a beautiful and blessed year 🎉
As someone who was raised super fundamentalist, then completely rejected religion once I grew up and moved out, this was the first video of yours that was suggested to me. When I heard that you yourself were a Christian I almost clicked away, because I know that often hearing from Christians in a way that is not critical of Christianity (I watch a lot of Mickey Atkins’ Fundamentalist content) is triggering for me. I’m glad I stayed.
You have such a welcoming energy and so much passion for genuine connection and and knowledge. I loved hearing what you had to say about the power of saying “I don’t know”. I’m glad I stumbled upon you in my journey of healing :) ❤️🩹
I mildly ponder on how Paul & Morgan are when camera is off
Does Paul never use literary devices? I highly doubt he’s ever carried a large wooden cross anywhere.
So, am I right in saying that May 27 is your birthday? That’s my mother’s birthday. And my best friend’s birthday. And Henry Kissinger’s birthday… anyway happy birthday!
My Win for the Week… I’m a lot less feverish than I was earlier in the week.
I’d pay money to see Paul try to live out biblical instructions on a daily basis!
It is! Happy birthday to your mom and friend! 🎉🥳
And that’s good, glad the fever is going down!
It was my birthday too!
I really love your honesty about the fear of eternal life, that was my big first sticking point with deconstruction, it makes me feel incredibly anxious as well. thanks for sharing about that. I don't identify as christian anymore but I really enjoy watching your content about these things and these looks at how you're able to still so fully enjoy and get value from your faith while still also having a lot of the same things in your head that were sort of "shelf breakers" for me to use the exmormon slang for it. I think that's really cool
Incredibly chilling to hear Morgan say that any non-affirming theology is going to be deadly to someone who wants to live in sin. That is....victim blaming at it's most diabolical. "The problem is not our theology; it's how they perceive it. It's them." My God. How would you even respond to something like that?? On a happier note, you look beautiful B! I love your dress. Very boho-chic. I dig. Also, I wish these boys would stop interrupting each other XD Maybe that will get better in part 2. Fascinating convo.
Love you B! Happy pride month everyone!
Happy Birthday 🎉 , and as always the video was great. I always love your opinions and point of view.
I really like this guy. I am glad they did this one
Tim: points out how obsessed evangelicals are with sex
Paul: denies it
Also Paul: doubles down and quotes more scripture about sex and sexual immorality 🙄
It's kind of weird that Paul didn't mention that Jesus standard when it came to marriage basically was: if you are married now, stay married. But if you are not married now, do NOT get married because the end is at hand. Same thing with children. Marriage and children are for those who cannot stay celibate.
If you are interested in sexuallity and the bible I would recommend Jennifer Bird. She is a bible scholar, has written books on the topic, and she has a youtube channel that goes by her name if you want to find her.
That was Paul the apostle who said it's best not to marry, not Jesus.
Forgot my win of the week: spouse and i went to an amazing marriage workshop with licensed counselors this weekend
WFTW: I had dedicated my latest book collecting my webcomic to my former Art teacher from High School. She received her copy and was so touched by the dedication, and loved hearing how she made an impact on my life in her early years being a teacher. It was great to bond with my old mentor that way.
In the first ten seconds, I think the guy talking to Paul here is great! I want to see someone make Paul THINK about the stuff he spouts all the time! It's BEYOND time that Paul gets completely challenged on his stodgy, ridiculous standards. "Judge with Love"? Yeah right, not these two!
* "Grow in your beliefs"? Please!! You're doing it for views and clout, NOTHING ELSE!! Get real, you two!!
* Tim saying "That's the first step in Deconstructing!" about blueberry coffee..... LMAO!!!!
* Tim is GREAT!!! Love how he deconstructs Paul's overly-simplified answer! This is the challenging I have been waiting for! Love how Tim points out so many gray areas and complications in such a wide brushstroke answer!
* Paul is waiting for his "gotcha" moment and Tim isn't giving him an opportunity. It's so delicious to watch!
* Mark Driscoll is a moron! His parishioners need to kick him out of his church!
* Good question on "Traditional", B! We all know Paul's definition is pretty skewed!
* Paul is DROWNING in the discussion about LGBTQ+ people! He's grasping at straws and Tim is pulling his answers apart like a Tinker-Toy tower!
* See ya in Part II :)
Also, happy birthday, B!! 🥳🥳🥳
My win for the week: i got to cuddle my sisters cat! It was nice because it was the 1 year anniversary of my own kitty passing on.
B: thanks for saying what wash books purpose was. IDK that to the extent you explained & i love learning stuff like that to deepen my biblical reading. One of many reasons I love your channel!
Happy birthday! My win for the week is finally getting a mattress topper that’s really made a positive difference in my sleep quality!
After a hectic work at week, I slept alot on Saturday, but apart from brain fry on a couple of occasions, I coped really well.
I am so happy because in the past such weeks chipped away at my mental health. And with my current job that doesn't seem to be the case.
So glad you got to rest and your current job isn’t taking as much of a mental toll as your previous job!
Thirty! 🎂 I’m old enough that when I turned thirty was when we weren’t trusting anyone over 30! (The ‘60s&’70s). Good luck trusting yourself! As a member of the small but mighty Radical Christian Left (Episcopal Branch), I enjoy the New Evangelicals, and try to tolerate and love in my heart Paul and Morgan.