The fact that likeminded gun owners literally get their panties in a bunch over something as hair-splitting as barrel length or caliber selection is a sad statement about the gun community as a whole. Bunch of fucking losers.
Totally agree. People can’t wrap their head around true ballistic theory. For that matter, most “shooters” (“hunters” are even worse!) can’t even understand what MOA means and how it relates to impact/kill. EVERYBODY wants a 1/4moa gun and they believe they can actually shoot that😂😂. Silly city boys!
I was laughed off several websites more than 10 years ago asking about 16" creedmore barrels to replace my grendels. I had comments from velocity is king and I'd be hamstringing a long range round, to no barrel maker worth their salt will spin one up for you because it's a dumb idea, to 6.5 ammo is soo expensive for to chop the velocity down. Well, here we are. Grendel ammo is more expensive, velocity is almost the same except for much heavier more aerodynamic bullets, to much better range, and done in a semi-auto out to 1000. It's not dumb. I now have two CM's one that's a 16" AR that's my multipurpose rifle that can do out to 1000, but is comfy at 500-700, and a bolt action that I can dominate past 800 with. Different tools for different uses. And the grendels are all but retired for my use.
That’s the goal of my channel…. Just here to gather the data and share with my audience so the viewer can make this own more educated decision. Appreciate you taking the time to watch!
@@MountainsMulletsMerica BTW I've been getting 2465 fps out of my 18" Grendel with 130gr TGK's (Max charge hand loads) Decent accuracy too, but I can only go out to 400 yards at my longest shooting range.
@@pogeegitz If your COL is pushed out to 2.275", you can still get that speed with certain powders and still not go over 50ksi, throat depending. Won't work with some mags though.
Yep if you’re shooting nrl hunter 16” has zero chance of making power factor. You’ll need as much velocity out a 6.5cm to get there. This is a great point I wish I would’ve thought to include in my summary.
@LRRPFco52 they will probably do better than 6.5 as the power they use is faster burning, and they shoot heavy bullets. But honestly, go carbon fiber over shorter barrel. Everyone I've ever seen try to go shorter than 20 inches seems to get in trouble with the power factor unless the round is somewhat overkill. There is a way to get around all this which is with factor loaded ammo weighing 140grs are more but I'm not rich enough to afford to shoot 3 dollars a round all year.
Because you want to argue that a 22” 6.5 isn’t a joke compared to a 300PRC in gel at a 1000? Anyone that hunts at a grand with a 6.5 has forfeited the right to argue energy. Do it if you want, but don’t preach to me about its effectiveness.
@@jrca1406 Not trying to be testy, but some really good shooters have successfully hunted elk past 1k with 6.5 SAUM, but they're top 1% shooters. I certainly wouldn't do it with 6.5CM. 600yds is a challenge even for experienced LR shooters with 6.5CM. Most people should stay within 300 regardless of what they're shooting, and 300yd shots need trajectory compensation.
Man, I just built a 6.5CM earlier this year with a 22” barrel. I love it, but if I’d seen this first, I probably would have built with a shorter barrel and saved a little weight.
My practical guns have 20 inch barrels. My static target rifles ( f-class, bench rest and such have longer ones) I'm seriously considering a semi-auto 16 inch hunting rig in the near future.
Keep the long or short barrel for 6.5cm topic on the side, at least you show the internet folks what the realistic accuracy expectations should be for a combat semi-auto rifle. I'm so tired for all those COLD BARREL, RANDOM FACTORY AMMO and easily print sub half moa 100y groups from a freaking SEMI-AUTO combat rifle.
Agreed. I will tell you though that my hand loads (Peterson case, BR4, 45.3 gr N555 and Berger classic hunter 135gr) prints .09 to .36" groups all day long out of a 24" AR 6.5cm. I have had multiple ppl call bs and shown them live in person. It CAN be done but factory ammo, production quality barrel = doubtful
Completely unrelated, but have you ever considered doing paid readings? Ebooks, ads, etc. You never stutter. Almost TOO well spoken, like AI. lol! Great idea for a video. Beautiful rigs. What about short barrel 6.5 vs longer barrel 308? 🤔
@@jjdidnottiebuckle4791high end rifle, high end glass, tight zero, quality ammo, ballistics calculator. When you stack the deck and follow the math you should be on target. But yes he's an excellent shot lol dude can shoot
There is a big difference in punching paper and trying to achieve velocities needed for hunting bullets to expand reliably. With proper marksmanship you may hit your target, but you still need the velocities to knock it down ethically. Thanks for the video!
I don't think it matters so much that you can reach out and "touch" targets at long distance, but rather how you strike it with sufficiently high "lethal" energies.
I have 22" .260 Rem GAP LR-260 24" Grendel 18" Grendel 18" Grendel 17.6" Grendel 14.5" Grendel 12" Grendel 10.5" Grendel 8.5" Grendel I shoot the 12" Grendel the most, but usually bring the 17.6" Lilja and 18" LaRue along too. I haven't shot my .260 Rem or 24" Grendel since 2015. I shoot all the time.
@@DavidBaumgarner I'm in the Mountain West region like you see in this video, but in Utah. 4400-4800ft elevation in the valleys, 6300+ at my preferred range complex. I shoot year-round, boiling summer through sub-freezing mountain winter. My go-to for recreational LR and my DM Courses is the 12" Grendel. Too easy to pack in a tiny soft case, pull it out and start hitting steel at 780yds with a 1-6x24 LPVO. I've 1st-round connected with it at 900yds on 2 MOA plate, which was crazy. I'm more excited about working with the 8.5" Grendel over the coming years. I'm just looking for the right optics for it. I shoot the 12" suppressed exclusively with a tiny TBAC Ultra 5. I've been shooting 6.5 Grendel since 2009. Started shooting LR formally in 1995 in my 1st Recon Platoon, so I've been in the LR game for a long time.
Tough call you had to make on the load. 200 fps for 6” lost is a bit too much based on my experience, so the 16” is probably put at a disadvantage here by using this load. Or is that speed in line with dedicated loads you developed for this rifle? Thx
ive been questioning my ar10 precision and accuracy. this video made me realize 100 yard groups dont necessarily mean poor performance at range. both weapons were just over 1 moa, but made consistent hits at over 1k yards. very nice.
Even tuning handloads and trying loads that have shot 0.5-0.75 moa consistently in my bolt action Tikka. Those loads in my LMT 6.5 on average are just a 1.0-1.25 moa.
You're leaving at least 100 fps on the table with your powder/load selection. Winchester StaBALL 6.5 is my goto powder for 6.5 CM, 30-06, 270 Win. A conservative 43.5 gr StaBall 6.5 load pushes my Berger 140 gr target bullets into the mid 2,700 fps range. 44.0 gr safely pushes it above 2,800 fps with no degradation in accuracy/group size, but maybe barrel throat erosion issues for extended use.
I use the same Staball 6.5 powder. Using 42.5g for 2735 fps out of my AI with 140 ELD-M out of a 24” barrel. Swapped all my 6.5 powder from H4350 to Staball. Meters extremely well on a Dillon!
2 things: 1) what bag riders are those? 2) need to get some suppressor covers on those cans. Mirage does nothing but hurt you in the scope off of a hot suppressor.
I know it’s a bit of a pain, but I bet with a little bit of load development for each rifle. You could tighten up the groups a bit more but for a semi auto platform looks very solid given to totally different barrel lengths.
If you're just worried about hitting the target the barel length seems to matter less. I'd love to see some gel tests at 300-600 yards. I would guess bullet selection is just as important as barrel length
Always look forward to your videos, can’t wait to see your video on POI shift on the AR platform. I just built an Aero Enhanced upper using a white oak armament barrel to avoid this issue.
I've got a Savage Axis II 6.5 creedmoor in an mdt lss chassis i had the barrel cut to 17" and it does amazing at 1000 yds with factory ammo, I feel like it actually became more accurate after I got the barrel cut, is that a possibility?
I bought a pre-owned Ruger American bolt-action from a pawn shop in 6.5 CM n chopped it down to 16.5".... shooting my 140gr handload ammo at 2350 fps it will shoot 1.25" groups at 100yds and still ring steel silhouette at 600yds.... very compact, light, and easily capable of taking deer with enough energy at 300 yds
Right? I have plans to do a video around this exact topic. Will get it filmed as soon as I can. For practical shooting 1-1.5 moa will be very effective.
Alot of people don't know that switching back and fourth from lead core to solid copper without cleaning can on alot of guns change your zero and open up your groups..
Difference in energy becomes the difference in its ability, not its velocity or ability to buck wind due to velocity. At 600 yards the 16" is just under 900 fpe while the 22" is just over 1100fpe. Everyone sets their own "ethical minimum" but i personally will not engage a deer size (medium) game animal at under 1000fpe at the animal. The 16" barrel would see a reduced range for my hunting applications. I shoot a gas 6.5cm in a 24" and enjoy the benefit of the extra energy at distance as a result HOWEVER i do have 2" more barrel to lug around with a 5" can on it, so while id rather have a shorter barrel, i realize i would miss the ability to reach out if i desire to.
@@TheMerlinmk19 We have large data collections from people across North America who have been DRTing large game with 6.5 Grendel for almost 20 years now. 85% of the animals fall in their tracks or don't move more than 25yds. The arbitrary fpe requirements don't seem to have any merit in the real world.
I get just under 10 SD using that Barnes bullet, Lapua/Alpha brass and A2700, but get completely mediocre groups out of my 22” Rainier Ultramatch barrel, try as I might. Been through a few hundred pills with the several pounds of powder I got, guess they just don’t get along with my barrel.
Very interesting but sample size is small. Run the numbers through an app for 10000’s sample size at least. Drops in velocity = longer travel time and hence lower accuracy. So it’s basically as long as possible is better if just looking at math till velocities aren’t increasing enough.
Great content and enjoy your channel. Appreciate all you do. Bought a budget 20in 308 and an Arken scope. Going to try a little of this long range shooting. Thanks. .
You literally made a video on a 14.5" 6.5 vs a 20" 308 and the 6.5 out paced it at that. How can ANYONE say that a short barreled 6.5 "don't make sense"?
Great video. From a hunting perspective the 16 inch makes a lot of sense. Especially back east for whitetail. A 500 yard shot is rare and even 350 isn't common. The 16 would be much easier and faster to engage.
Great video! Id only say that while you can reach out and touch steel or whatever *very* far with a short 6.5, the potential issue becomes terminal performance. I wonder at what point you drop below the 500lbs of energy on both rifles. Thanks!
Mine out of a 22" barrel with 147gr ELD-M @ 55°f/29.7in baro 2495fps muzzle has 517ft/lbs @1175y and 497ft/lbs @1200y. His 140gr Barnes probably fall under 500ft/lbs between 1150-1175 yards depending on atmospherics.
Not going to argue that “tope” is probably correct…. I just don’t think it sounds good and don’t like saying it that way haha. Appreciate you taking the time to watch and support the channel!
Great video and great comparison! You got "Tremor'd" at 17:09 by accidentally holding a MIL low. That's why those reticles can be a challenge especially under stress.
I just built an Areo M5 for my class. It was sent to me with an 18-inch .308 barrel and I switched it out for a 22-inch 6.5 Creedmoor. I plan to use it for targets and maybe whitetails. I think this is a great choice for this platform. The new barrel is the BA premium series I got brand new for a little over 200 dollars.
Both are clearly very capable beyond 1000 yards. One thing I have found with my 16" AR10 is that while very capable, they are not very well balanced when shooting in compromised positions compared to a 22".
Loved this video. My friend has a bad barrel. I've been trying to convince him to cut it down to see if it will correct the problem before he buys a new one.
Can you comment or even better, show what the brass looks like out of the 16". Extractor abusing the case rim? Ejector swipes? Gas system length would be an easy to include data point. Great content! Keep it up!
I have a Ruger Gunsight Scout in 6.5 Creed with a 18.7 inch barrel. Wasn't going to shoot it. Because it's pretty rare. But I just might now. Interesting video.
About 200FPS difference? That's not a whole (at least if it was .223)... and enough to tell me I could probably get away the shorter barrel. Don't know if this gets covered later in the video, but can't baffle cans speed up bullets just a hair?
I watch a lot of YT and saw somwhere a creator talking about SF using shorter barrels like 14.5 6.5CM because the trade off wasn’t that significant for the range and helped the DMR blend in.
Amazing shooting and Great content! I have a 20 inch LMT 6.5 Creedmoor that I need to start pushing out further! And I've been very tempted by the SR25 Cartel Uppers and Barrels! Glad to see them performing for you.
Time of flight. Impact velocity. Means: Less wind drift & more forgiving elevation adjustments. Better terminal ballistics. Personal opinion: Grendel inside of 500, costmore past that.
nice, I prefer 18", but it helps to see performance at the 16"... I know someone who just killed an elk with a 13" 6.5 CM... the 140 gn bullets seem better for those long shots, but have you ran the 100 gn eld-vts? Maybe run this again, or some similar compare of two barrel lengths, with those 100 gn bullets? thanks man
Your videos never fail. It’s made me want to push my limits with my AR 10. Still saving up my money to finish my Bergara BMP. Hopefully by then I’ve gotten better at distance.
When distances are known, you can still get hits regardless of velocity. When distances are unknown, your acceptable error in range E is greater with higher velocity. It depends on the type of shooting you’re doing and the support equipment you have. Almost 32 fps per inch of barrel is significant though. Still amazing what you can get done with a 16” pipe.
I think you’re on point. I have a 22 inch 6.5C and have no objections to shorter barrels - you’ve proven it works. I think the difference at range is terminal velocity and ft lbs on target. That said, I personally wouldn’t be comfortable shooting at game at the long ranges that you’re demonstrating so 16 inch gets my vote. Nice job.
Great video! I got into 6.5 Grendel 15 years ago and went with a 20” heavy barrel because I wanted more velocity at distance. I haven’t shot much the last few years and on a whim got a 18” upper with a lighter profile barrel because I would like to have a lighter rifle. Now I am saving for a scope for that upper to test it out and compare the two. Grendel got superseded by the newer Creedmoor but this test is similar to what I what I expect. Slightly different wind calls but not enough to justify the heavy 20” barrel.
I will say, as a less experienced mid-long range shooter, in throated .308 with 190 grain matchkings, the difference between 20 inch barrel and 24 inch barrel is pretty significant for me. My bullets are much more predictable at 1000 yards out of the 24 inch rig than they are out of the 20"
One reason I take time to dial is so I don't hold 2.2 instead of 3.2. Didn't help that is was supposed to be 3.6, but I had to rewind and look. Definitely held one at 2.2, haha! Great videos though and I liked the side by side. Glad your here in Idaho now! I'm planning on attending a match at Day Mountain Ranch in October, might see you around if you're in this area!
I run a 18" barrel on my bolt gun!! My take, the extra 4-6 inches are not worth the the weight or the maneuverability if you know your rifle, your holds and you know what you are doing!
Been watching your vids for a while and love the content, so this comes from a position of love. You pronounce "taupe" like "dope" with a T. So it's "tope". 😅
6.5cm is just such a good round. It's got no issue going that distance out of a shorter barrel. I would argue that the longer barrels that yield quite a bit more velocity are better, due to your wind holds. It battles the wind better which gives you a higher hit percentage on target. Love my 6.5cm. Mine is out of a tikka bolt gun though, not a gas gun. Great shooting!
Enjoyed the high quality content, well done! In the opinion section I was also looking for recoil impulse, must not have been worth mentioning? Keep up the great work.
Being a distance shooter I’m with you on this. Within reason, barrel length is not much of an issue unless your looking for that “flat shooter” or exponential velocity relating to kinetic energy on target at distance. As far as shorter distances like 300 and below.. I don’t think there’s enough of a difference to make a difference, most certainly not on any animal you may be hunting.
I like both rifles but if I was buying one I think I would look for a 18" barrel and have the best of both worlds. If I bought one what would you recommend for accuracy and reliability
I could see comparing box ammo to see how it performs in each gun with the same ammo but hand loading the same load for different barrel lengths is usually fool hardy. Handloading is a chance to optimize each barrel. Comparing optimized hard loads would be a better comparison.
I think for shooting steel that's not a issue but shooting at Game at distance in my opinion that 200fsp makes a big difference. Good shooting and super nice rigs.
I think 6.5 creedmoor out of a short barrel makes sense, but I think it has a lot to do with placing a focus on the handling characteristics of the rifle itself rather than purely the external ballistic properties of the round itself.
Shorter barrels are stiffer, stiff equals accurate. "Science!" That's why bull barrels exist... Your 16" rifle is a tad over-gassed which beats up your entire bolt and buffer system, more likely to snap ejectors, the bolt cam, bolt catch or worse sheer off bolt lugs over time! Look at the brass ejection angle compared to the 22" which is ejecting brass out 90° or 3 O'clock, that's the _MAX_ angle you want. Slowing your bolt timing/gas, preferably ejecting brass farther back @ 4 O'clock will save some future headaches. Your 16" though is spitting brass in _front_ of the rifle at about 2-2:30, a bit too fast into the breech. Easy fix though! Either buy a complete heavier buffer (a gamble) or DIY it and make a custom one. Get some heavier Tungsten buffer weights (Midway ETC) and the correct size "roll pin punch" (not a normal flat faced punch) to pop the pin out of the buffer, pull the bumper cap off and swap out some of the 3 the aluminum or steel weights for 1 or 2 Tungsten weights. If you change loads, suppressors, or shoot in winter you might need to re-time your bolt speed again so might want two, a summer and a winter buffer. Also, adjustable gas blocks can "work" but are more prone to problems and leaks.👍
I recently bought some 308 and 6.5 CM AR-10's and I bought some Primary Arms Apollo mil dot reticle scopes for a few of them. I also bought their Platinum series 1-8 compact LPVO's with the Griffin reticle. They have a built in BDC, but also a mill grid. I'm new to using mils, but I really want to learn how to use them in their full capacity. The range I use only has 500 yards, but it has quite a few targets out to that distance. You seem to be totally dialed in when it comes to using your reticles to their full potential. Are there any TH-cam videos or even books that you recommend on using a mil grid to calculate bullet drop and wind holds?? Thanks for doing these videos. I recently picked up a 20" and 18" 6.5 CM AR-10, and I was hesitant to buy the 18" because of velocity. But it was a deal I couldn't refuse, $1,250 for a CheyTac CT-10! The trigger on that thing breaks at like 2lbs, nice and crisp with hardly any take-up. After watching this video, I have no doubt it will do what need it to now! Keep up the great work, I appreciate the time and detail you put into making these videos! That scope camera you use works really good too. Great stuff!!!😎🇺🇸🦅👊💪
For me the velocity loss is a no go for me as less velocity equals more drop and wind deflection so I have to be more accurate on ranges so it’s a no go for me.
Hey I was wondering is there a big difference between a 24in and 22inch 300 win mag ? I’m thinking about a getting a nemo arms omen or the Nemo arms watchmen I only have about 700 yards to shoot at . Which one would you choose if you if you had choose?
If I were shooting a max of 700 yds, I’d go 22”. You’re going to give up a little bit of velocity but the difference down range will be negligible. The shorter barrels are just so much easier to maneuver, especially if suppressed.
You should have way more subscribers. Great content.
As long as youtube doesn't go full gun grabber, he will no doubt be huge eventually. Some of the best LR content on YT.
Subscriber count to content quality ratio is wild on this channel.
Well he isn't posting a bunch of flashy nonsense and meme garbage. That's what popular unfortunately.
Just imagine if utube was playing fair.
Good gun channels get throttled by TH-cam.
Share this around 👍 get the word out organically
Straight white patriotic, male making gun content… it’s basically the anti-algorithm for TH-cam 😂.
I have enraged people with the idea of shooting a short barrel at long range. I never understood why. Great video.
Some people can't handle facts lol
there's much to be missed. you lose a bit of velocity which will eveeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeentually matter.
The fact that likeminded gun owners literally get their panties in a bunch over something as hair-splitting as barrel length or caliber selection is a sad statement about the gun community as a whole. Bunch of fucking losers.
Totally agree. People can’t wrap their head around true ballistic theory. For that matter, most “shooters” (“hunters” are even worse!) can’t even understand what MOA means and how it relates to impact/kill.
EVERYBODY wants a 1/4moa gun and they believe they can actually shoot that😂😂. Silly city boys!
I was laughed off several websites more than 10 years ago asking about 16" creedmore barrels to replace my grendels. I had comments from velocity is king and I'd be hamstringing a long range round, to no barrel maker worth their salt will spin one up for you because it's a dumb idea, to 6.5 ammo is soo expensive for to chop the velocity down. Well, here we are. Grendel ammo is more expensive, velocity is almost the same except for much heavier more aerodynamic bullets, to much better range, and done in a semi-auto out to 1000. It's not dumb. I now have two CM's one that's a 16" AR that's my multipurpose rifle that can do out to 1000, but is comfy at 500-700, and a bolt action that I can dominate past 800 with. Different tools for different uses. And the grendels are all but retired for my use.
Great stuff - facts without opinions or feelings to get in the way.
That’s the goal of my channel…. Just here to gather the data and share with my audience so the viewer can make this own more educated decision. Appreciate you taking the time to watch!
@@MountainsMulletsMerica BTW I've been getting 2465 fps out of my 18" Grendel with 130gr TGK's (Max charge hand loads) Decent accuracy too, but I can only go out to 400 yards at my longest shooting range.
@@pogeegitz If your COL is pushed out to 2.275", you can still get that speed with certain powders and still not go over 50ksi, throat depending. Won't work with some mags though.
I love seeing top manufacturers support you fully
You are only one of 3 legitimate shooters on the circus YT platform....
You keep it real !
Agreed.
But who are the other two?
Mark and Sam?
@@NelsonZAPTM Rex
So for me that velocity drop is an absolute killer for shooting nrl hunter. It just doesnt stand a change of making power factor
Yep if you’re shooting nrl hunter 16” has zero chance of making power factor. You’ll need as much velocity out a 6.5cm to get there. This is a great point I wish I would’ve thought to include in my summary.
Will a 16" 7mm-08 or 7mm SAW do it?
@LRRPFco52 they will probably do better than 6.5 as the power they use is faster burning, and they shoot heavy bullets. But honestly, go carbon fiber over shorter barrel. Everyone I've ever seen try to go shorter than 20 inches seems to get in trouble with the power factor unless the round is somewhat overkill. There is a way to get around all this which is with factor loaded ammo weighing 140grs are more but I'm not rich enough to afford to shoot 3 dollars a round all year.
Gel blocks at 1000
600 and 1000
Because you want to argue that a 22” 6.5 isn’t a joke compared to a 300PRC in gel at a 1000?
Anyone that hunts at a grand with a 6.5 has forfeited the right to argue energy.
Do it if you want, but don’t preach to me about its effectiveness.
@@jrca1406 Not trying to be testy, but some really good shooters have successfully hunted elk past 1k with 6.5 SAUM, but they're top 1% shooters. I certainly wouldn't do it with 6.5CM. 600yds is a challenge even for experienced LR shooters with 6.5CM. Most people should stay within 300 regardless of what they're shooting, and 300yd shots need trajectory compensation.
@@LRRPFco52great points and valid reasoning, in my opinion 👍🏻
Man, I just built a 6.5CM earlier this year with a 22” barrel. I love it, but if I’d seen this first, I probably would have built with a shorter barrel and saved a little weight.
My practical guns have 20 inch barrels. My static target rifles ( f-class, bench rest and such have longer ones) I'm seriously considering a semi-auto 16 inch hunting rig in the near future.
Watch his 14.5 6.5 VS 20" 308 video.
Keep the long or short barrel for 6.5cm topic on the side, at least you show the internet folks what the realistic accuracy expectations should be for a combat semi-auto rifle. I'm so tired for all those COLD BARREL, RANDOM FACTORY AMMO and easily print sub half moa 100y groups from a freaking SEMI-AUTO combat rifle.
Agreed. I will tell you though that my hand loads (Peterson case, BR4, 45.3 gr N555 and Berger classic hunter 135gr) prints .09 to .36" groups all day long out of a 24" AR 6.5cm. I have had multiple ppl call bs and shown them live in person. It CAN be done but factory ammo, production quality barrel = doubtful
Completely unrelated, but have you ever considered doing paid readings? Ebooks, ads, etc. You never stutter. Almost TOO well spoken, like AI. lol!
Great idea for a video. Beautiful rigs. What about short barrel 6.5 vs longer barrel 308? 🤔
Dude is literally an AI aimbot
@@jjdidnottiebuckle4791high end rifle, high end glass, tight zero, quality ammo, ballistics calculator. When you stack the deck and follow the math you should be on target. But yes he's an excellent shot lol dude can shoot
I’d flip wind and drop with wind taking priority. Have you ever used applied ballistics to run a WEZ analysis?
Unless I’m rucking with the rifle or clearing rooms the added length is not an issue and I’ll take the better wind deflection
What're you even doing with a rifle that doesn't involve rucking, hunting, or defending? 😂
There is a big difference in punching paper and trying to achieve velocities needed for hunting bullets to expand reliably. With proper marksmanship you may hit your target, but you still need the velocities to knock it down ethically.
Thanks for the video!
This is an excellent channel!
Thank you! Glad you’re enjoying the content!
@@MountainsMulletsMerica Looking forward to more videos👍
And greetings from Norway😊
I don't think it matters so much that you can reach out and "touch" targets at long distance, but rather how you strike it with sufficiently high "lethal" energies.
I'm here for this. I've got a 14.5 but have been considering shorter.....12.5-13". Just to see
I have 22" .260 Rem GAP LR-260
24" Grendel
18" Grendel
18" Grendel
17.6" Grendel
14.5" Grendel
12" Grendel
10.5" Grendel
8.5" Grendel
I shoot the 12" Grendel the most, but usually bring the 17.6" Lilja and 18" LaRue along too.
I haven't shot my .260 Rem or 24" Grendel since 2015. I shoot all the time.
@@LRRPFco52What kind of ranges / conditions do you typically shoot?
@@DavidBaumgarner I'm in the Mountain West region like you see in this video, but in Utah. 4400-4800ft elevation in the valleys, 6300+ at my preferred range complex. I shoot year-round, boiling summer through sub-freezing mountain winter.
My go-to for recreational LR and my DM Courses is the 12" Grendel. Too easy to pack in a tiny soft case, pull it out and start hitting steel at 780yds with a 1-6x24 LPVO. I've 1st-round connected with it at 900yds on 2 MOA plate, which was crazy.
I'm more excited about working with the 8.5" Grendel over the coming years. I'm just looking for the right optics for it.
I shoot the 12" suppressed exclusively with a tiny TBAC Ultra 5. I've been shooting 6.5 Grendel since 2009. Started shooting LR formally in 1995 in my 1st Recon Platoon, so I've been in the LR game for a long time.
Tough call you had to make on the load. 200 fps for 6” lost is a bit too much based on my experience, so the 16” is probably put at a disadvantage here by using this load. Or is that speed in line with dedicated loads you developed for this rifle? Thx
Well, I was going to build a 6.5 with a 22" barrel, but I'm thinking an 18" will be just as good. Thanks for the info!
ive been questioning my ar10 precision and accuracy. this video made me realize 100 yard groups dont necessarily mean poor performance at range. both weapons were just over 1 moa, but made consistent hits at over 1k yards. very nice.
Try the Hornady Black in your AR-10. Do it, you wont regret it
Even tuning handloads and trying loads that have shot 0.5-0.75 moa consistently in my bolt action Tikka. Those loads in my LMT 6.5 on average are just a 1.0-1.25 moa.
I love me a short barrel. It does limit your hunting range, but I'll take it for the convenience and weight.
You're leaving at least 100 fps on the table with your powder/load selection. Winchester StaBALL 6.5 is my goto powder for 6.5 CM, 30-06, 270 Win. A conservative 43.5 gr StaBall 6.5 load pushes my Berger 140 gr target bullets into the mid 2,700 fps range. 44.0 gr safely pushes it above 2,800 fps with no degradation in accuracy/group size, but maybe barrel throat erosion issues for extended use.
What barrel length is that though?
I use the same Staball 6.5 powder. Using 42.5g for 2735 fps out of my AI with 140 ELD-M out of a 24” barrel. Swapped all my 6.5 powder from H4350 to Staball. Meters extremely well on a Dillon!
2 things:
1) what bag riders are those?
2) need to get some suppressor covers on those cans. Mirage does nothing but hurt you in the scope off of a hot suppressor.
I know it’s a bit of a pain, but I bet with a little bit of load development for each rifle. You could tighten up the groups a bit more but for a semi auto platform looks very solid given to totally different barrel lengths.
If you're just worried about hitting the target the barel length seems to matter less. I'd love to see some gel tests at 300-600 yards. I would guess bullet selection is just as important as barrel length
Federal Terminal Ascent and Nosler ABLRs have awesome expansion performance.
Love this channel I have to rewatch videos while I wait for the new one 🎉😂
Always look forward to your videos, can’t wait to see your video on POI shift on the AR platform. I just built an Aero Enhanced upper using a white oak armament barrel to avoid this issue.
I am very happy with my 24" 6.5 CM, but after seeing this I wouldn't be opposed to having a 16" as well.
Excellent marksmanship on display here, at a beautiful facility
I've got a Savage Axis II 6.5 creedmoor in an mdt lss chassis i had the barrel cut to 17" and it does amazing at 1000 yds with factory ammo, I feel like it actually became more accurate after I got the barrel cut, is that a possibility?
Very possible due to less barrel flex... faster velocity don't always (usually rarely) mean better accuracy
I've been wanting to build a 16" 6.5 Creedmoor lightweight bolt action to use for mountain hunting, this is some great info!
Do it
I bought a pre-owned Ruger American bolt-action from a pawn shop in 6.5 CM n chopped it down to 16.5".... shooting my 140gr handload ammo at 2350 fps it will shoot 1.25" groups at 100yds and still ring steel silhouette at 600yds.... very compact, light, and easily capable of taking deer with enough energy at 300 yds
@@gunfunandstuff92261.25 group @ 100, how does it print at 200, 300, 400? Does it open up a lot?
I did this with a Tikka UPR/CTR in 6.5
What's crazy is how many people think you need a rifle that can shoot 1/4" groups to shoot that far LOL
Right? I have plans to do a video around this exact topic. Will get it filmed as soon as I can. For practical shooting 1-1.5 moa will be very effective.
This also makes a good example of why to go with a not-so-hot load development for increased barrel life
Alot of people don't know that switching back and fourth from lead core to solid copper without cleaning can on alot of guns change your zero and open up your groups..
Difference in energy becomes the difference in its ability, not its velocity or ability to buck wind due to velocity. At 600 yards the 16" is just under 900 fpe while the 22" is just over 1100fpe. Everyone sets their own "ethical minimum" but i personally will not engage a deer size (medium) game animal at under 1000fpe at the animal. The 16" barrel would see a reduced range for my hunting applications. I shoot a gas 6.5cm in a 24" and enjoy the benefit of the extra energy at distance as a result HOWEVER i do have 2" more barrel to lug around with a 5" can on it, so while id rather have a shorter barrel, i realize i would miss the ability to reach out if i desire to.
@@TheMerlinmk19 We have large data collections from people across North America who have been DRTing large game with 6.5 Grendel for almost 20 years now. 85% of the animals fall in their tracks or don't move more than 25yds. The arbitrary fpe requirements don't seem to have any merit in the real world.
I get just under 10 SD using that Barnes bullet, Lapua/Alpha brass and A2700, but get completely mediocre groups out of my 22” Rainier Ultramatch barrel, try as I might. Been through a few hundred pills with the several pounds of powder I got, guess they just don’t get along with my barrel.
Very interesting but sample size is small. Run the numbers through an app for 10000’s sample size at least. Drops in velocity = longer travel time and hence lower accuracy. So it’s basically as long as possible is better if just looking at math till velocities aren’t increasing enough.
Great content and enjoy your channel. Appreciate all you do. Bought a budget 20in 308 and an Arken scope. Going to try a little of this long range shooting. Thanks.
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BTW that wind was the calmest Ive seen. That is a sweet range.
You literally made a video on a 14.5" 6.5 vs a 20" 308 and the 6.5 out paced it at that. How can ANYONE say that a short barreled 6.5 "don't make sense"?
Clearly the 16” is equally accurate as the 22”. As a hunter I’m interested in energy, what did you see in your ballistic calculations?
Great video man , killer editing
Thank you! Really cool to hear you notice the effort put in on the editing side! Lots of new content coming so hope you’ll stay tuned to check it out
Off the concrete? How much more stae can you get!
Hoeverveuthbtge fasvgun andb16 inch barrel you did ok I thought.
Once again, it's the Indian and not the arrow 👍
Great video. From a hunting perspective the 16 inch makes a lot of sense. Especially back east for whitetail. A 500 yard shot is rare and even 350 isn't common. The 16 would be much easier and faster to engage.
I’ve got a 12.5” 6mmARC AR and a 16” 308 Win bolt gun as my current go to hunting guns depending on the situation.
So nice having more compact guns.
Great video! Id only say that while you can reach out and touch steel or whatever *very* far with a short 6.5, the potential issue becomes terminal performance. I wonder at what point you drop below the 500lbs of energy on both rifles. Thanks!
Mine out of a 22" barrel with 147gr ELD-M @ 55°f/29.7in baro 2495fps muzzle has 517ft/lbs @1175y and 497ft/lbs @1200y. His 140gr Barnes probably fall under 500ft/lbs between 1150-1175 yards depending on atmospherics.
Awesome Content..!!!
Hey brother, love your videos.. just a quick FYI. The color "Taupe" is pronounced "tope" (like rope with a 'T').
Not going to argue that “tope” is probably correct…. I just don’t think it sounds good and don’t like saying it that way haha. Appreciate you taking the time to watch and support the channel!
Great video and great comparison! You got "Tremor'd" at 17:09 by accidentally holding a MIL low. That's why those reticles can be a challenge especially under stress.
I just built an Areo M5 for my class. It was sent to me with an 18-inch .308 barrel and I switched it out for a 22-inch 6.5 Creedmoor. I plan to use it for targets and maybe whitetails. I think this is a great choice for this platform. The new barrel is the BA premium series I got brand new for a little over 200 dollars.
part of the sdi scam?
Both are clearly very capable beyond 1000 yards. One thing I have found with my 16" AR10 is that while very capable, they are not very well balanced when shooting in compromised positions compared to a 22".
As always great content, breakdown and transparency. You should have a LOT more subscribers
Have a 14.5" 6.5CM and love it. 2508 fps with 140ELDM hand loads and 2570 FPS with berger 130 hand loads.
Loved this video. My friend has a bad barrel. I've been trying to convince him to cut it down to see if it will correct the problem before he buys a new one.
Much easier to get a new pipe from a company that cares about their product.
Can you comment or even better, show what the brass looks like out of the 16". Extractor abusing the case rim? Ejector swipes? Gas system length would be an easy to include data point.
Great content! Keep it up!
I have a Ruger Gunsight Scout in 6.5 Creed with a 18.7 inch barrel. Wasn't going to shoot it. Because it's pretty rare. But I just might now. Interesting video.
About 200FPS difference? That's not a whole (at least if it was .223)... and enough to tell me I could probably get away the shorter barrel.
Don't know if this gets covered later in the video, but can't baffle cans speed up bullets just a hair?
I watch a lot of YT and saw somwhere a creator talking about SF using shorter barrels like 14.5 6.5CM because the trade off wasn’t that significant for the range and helped the DMR blend in.
Found your channel recently. Great job, keep up the good work! Your reviews are also excellent.
Tim F. - Train Confident
Amazing shooting and Great content! I have a 20 inch LMT 6.5 Creedmoor that I need to start pushing out further! And I've been very tempted by the SR25 Cartel Uppers and Barrels! Glad to see them performing for you.
Time of flight.
Impact velocity.
Means:
Less wind drift & more forgiving elevation adjustments.
Better terminal ballistics.
Personal opinion: Grendel inside of 500, costmore past that.
I couldn’t be more excited for this video. I’m currently shopping for a 6.5 creedmoor barrel. Ive been eyeballing a few 18” barrels.
nice, I prefer 18", but it helps to see performance at the 16"... I know someone who just killed an elk with a 13" 6.5 CM... the 140 gn bullets seem better for those long shots, but have you ran the 100 gn eld-vts? Maybe run this again, or some similar compare of two barrel lengths, with those 100 gn bullets? thanks man
Your videos never fail. It’s made me want to push my limits with my AR 10. Still saving up my money to finish my Bergara BMP. Hopefully by then I’ve gotten better at distance.
Love your videos, I’d like to see the 16” 6.5 compares to a 20” 308.
When distances are known, you can still get hits regardless of velocity.
When distances are unknown, your acceptable error in range E is greater with higher velocity.
It depends on the type of shooting you’re doing and the support equipment you have.
Almost 32 fps per inch of barrel is significant though. Still amazing what you can get done with a 16” pipe.
I think you’re on point. I have a 22 inch 6.5C and have no objections to shorter barrels - you’ve proven it works. I think the difference at range is terminal velocity and ft lbs on target. That said, I personally wouldn’t be comfortable shooting at game at the long ranges that you’re demonstrating so 16 inch gets my vote. Nice job.
How do you like the 4-20 with tremor reticle?
Great video! I got into 6.5 Grendel 15 years ago and went with a 20” heavy barrel because I wanted more velocity at distance. I haven’t shot much the last few years and on a whim got a 18” upper with a lighter profile barrel because I would like to have a lighter rifle. Now I am saving for a scope for that upper to test it out and compare the two. Grendel got superseded by the newer Creedmoor but this test is similar to what I what I expect. Slightly different wind calls but not enough to justify the heavy 20” barrel.
I will say, as a less experienced mid-long range shooter, in throated .308 with 190 grain matchkings, the difference between 20 inch barrel and 24 inch barrel is pretty significant for me. My bullets are much more predictable at 1000 yards out of the 24 inch rig than they are out of the 20"
I had rechambered my Scar 17 to 6.5 CM with a Dead Shot barrel 18” 5r barrel and it shoots sub moa. I do load using Hornady ELD match.
Love the channel, videos are extremely well produced and narrated; super informative and entertaining stuff. Keep up the great work
One reason I take time to dial is so I don't hold 2.2 instead of 3.2. Didn't help that is was supposed to be 3.6, but I had to rewind and look. Definitely held one at 2.2, haha! Great videos though and I liked the side by side. Glad your here in Idaho now! I'm planning on attending a match at Day Mountain Ranch in October, might see you around if you're in this area!
I run a 18" barrel on my bolt gun!! My take, the extra 4-6 inches are not worth the the weight or the maneuverability if you know your rifle, your holds and you know what you are doing!
What brass are you running? And small or large primers? Im getti 2560fps outa my hand loads. 16" psa barrel ar-10
Been watching your vids for a while and love the content, so this comes from a position of love. You pronounce "taupe" like "dope" with a T. So it's "tope". 😅
6.5cm is just such a good round. It's got no issue going that distance out of a shorter barrel. I would argue that the longer barrels that yield quite a bit more velocity are better, due to your wind holds. It battles the wind better which gives you a higher hit percentage on target. Love my 6.5cm. Mine is out of a tikka bolt gun though, not a gas gun. Great shooting!
Enjoyed the high quality content, well done! In the opinion section I was also looking for recoil impulse, must not have been worth mentioning? Keep up the great work.
Being a distance shooter I’m with you on this. Within reason, barrel length is not much of an issue unless your looking for that “flat shooter” or exponential velocity relating to kinetic energy on target at distance. As far as shorter distances like 300 and below.. I don’t think there’s enough of a difference to make a difference, most certainly not on any animal you may be hunting.
That knights looks sick. What color cerakote did you use? That’s different then the traditional FDE
I like both rifles but if I was buying one I think I would look for a 18" barrel and have the best of both worlds.
If I bought one what would you recommend for accuracy and reliability
I could see comparing box ammo to see how it performs in each gun with the same ammo but hand loading the same load for different barrel lengths is usually fool hardy. Handloading is a chance to optimize each barrel. Comparing optimized hard loads would be a better comparison.
Great info as always! Also good to see some big boy equipment back on the channel. 😎
Great reminder that barrel length is relative to what you want to do with it. Range time and consistent application brings your accuracy. Great video!
I think for shooting steel that's not a issue but shooting at Game at distance in my opinion that 200fsp makes a big difference. Good shooting and super nice rigs.
I think 6.5 creedmoor out of a short barrel makes sense, but I think it has a lot to do with placing a focus on the handling characteristics of the rifle itself rather than purely the external ballistic properties of the round itself.
Great accuracy from both. Impressed with the 16”.
Shorter barrels are stiffer, stiff equals accurate. "Science!" That's why bull barrels exist...
Your 16" rifle is a tad over-gassed which beats up your entire bolt and buffer system, more likely to snap ejectors, the bolt cam, bolt catch or worse sheer off bolt lugs over time!
Look at the brass ejection angle compared to the 22" which is ejecting brass out 90° or 3 O'clock, that's the _MAX_ angle you want. Slowing your bolt timing/gas, preferably ejecting brass farther back @ 4 O'clock will save some future headaches. Your 16" though is spitting brass in _front_ of the rifle at about 2-2:30, a bit too fast into the breech.
Easy fix though! Either buy a complete heavier buffer (a gamble) or DIY it and make a custom one. Get some heavier Tungsten buffer weights (Midway ETC) and the correct size "roll pin punch" (not a normal flat faced punch) to pop the pin out of the buffer, pull the bumper cap off and swap out some of the 3 the aluminum or steel weights for 1 or 2 Tungsten weights.
If you change loads, suppressors, or shoot in winter you might need to re-time your bolt speed again so might want two, a summer and a winter buffer. Also, adjustable gas blocks can "work" but are more prone to problems and leaks.👍
So long as you can calculate the dope, there really should be no difference until you reach max range.
I recently bought some 308 and 6.5 CM AR-10's and I bought some Primary Arms Apollo mil dot reticle scopes for a few of them. I also bought their Platinum series 1-8 compact LPVO's with the Griffin reticle. They have a built in BDC, but also a mill grid. I'm new to using mils, but I really want to learn how to use them in their full capacity. The range I use only has 500 yards, but it has quite a few targets out to that distance. You seem to be totally dialed in when it comes to using your reticles to their full potential. Are there any TH-cam videos or even books that you recommend on using a mil grid to calculate bullet drop and wind holds?? Thanks for doing these videos. I recently picked up a 20" and 18" 6.5 CM AR-10, and I was hesitant to buy the 18" because of velocity. But it was a deal I couldn't refuse, $1,250 for a CheyTac CT-10! The trigger on that thing breaks at like 2lbs, nice and crisp with hardly any take-up. After watching this video, I have no doubt it will do what need it to now! Keep up the great work, I appreciate the time and detail you put into making these videos! That scope camera you use works really good too. Great stuff!!!😎🇺🇸🦅👊💪
Take a course from a reputable instructor. What part of the Country are you in?
Can confirm: Day Mountain Ranch is a treasure and must be protected
For me the velocity loss is a no go for me as less velocity equals more drop and wind deflection so I have to be more accurate on ranges so it’s a no go for me.
Who is this guy and how is he so rich haha what a solid video as usual
When it comes to group size, adjust bullet seating depth.
Looking forward to more videos👍
And greetings from Norway😊
What is the cerakote color on the 16”? It looks awesome man. Keep up the content
Hey I was wondering is there a big difference between a 24in and 22inch 300 win mag ? I’m thinking about a getting a nemo arms omen or the Nemo arms watchmen I only have about 700 yards to shoot at . Which one would you choose if you if you had choose?
If I were shooting a max of 700 yds, I’d go 22”. You’re going to give up a little bit of velocity but the difference down range will be negligible. The shorter barrels are just so much easier to maneuver, especially if suppressed.
Well done videos. I put the word out to all my fellow shooters.
Appreciate the support!
A really interesting comparison. Thanks for the video
The bipod is jumping around a bit. That could easily account for a flyer or two
It's TOO adjustable
@@mrs.vasquezz adjustability isn't the problem. In fact it's great for a bipod. His bipod is jumping inconsistently. The inconsistency can open groups