DF Retro: Nintendo 64 HDMI Video Options: EON Super 64, Retrotink 2x, UltraHDMI + N64 RGB!
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 9 ส.ค. 2019
- Of all the major retro consoles, N64 is the machine that causes the most problems when hooking up to a modern flat panel display - mostly because S-Video was the top-end output offered by the machine itself. So what's the best solution here? John talks HDMI adapters and mods with MyLifeInGaming's Marc Duddleston, with a focus on the brand new 'plug and play' EON Super 64 adaptor.
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The "film grain" is caused by the way the nintendo 64 render the graphics.
It renders the picture internally at 15bit color depth with a pretty strong ordered dither, then the Video output chip strategically blends the dither to make a virtual "22bit output", kinda like the original 3Dfx cards.
To be more precise, as the N64 memory have 9 bits due being made for ECC, and in the frame buffer, they use the extra bit to mark where to perform a blur, then the VI chip itself read this extra data and perform the blur as a post processing step, and both the dither and the triangle edges are marked, so you get the deditherer and anti alias for "free".
Haha you said "dither"
@@Sithedd I sure did.
And it gets VERY obvious when the game use a fullscreen tinting filter like on starfox 64 or shadow man. Those games will have a softer overall output due the whole screen being blurred.
What's weird is that the film grain effect is stil still there when playing Star Fox 64 on project 64
Hey DF, Sign this guy up!!
@@chrisfratz i bet it only happens on plugins that also do the vanish cap and smash bros noise correctly.
I have no clue on the exact technical details, but i guess they abuse the dither somehow.
As soon as I saw that EON Super64 device I knew the internals would be a complete mess. The exact same trick is often used in "hi-fi" audio equipment as a smokescreen to try and give the impression of high quality and justify a much higher price.
"I am not an atomic playboy!"
Still hard to believe this EON device is $150. It's really, *really* hard to recommend it over the RetroTink in most cases.
Voultar's teardown heavily implies that this is just a Retrotink 2x. It has what appears to be the same chips, but it's hard to confim since eon scraped the serial numbers and other identifiers off all the chips before covering everything in epoxy. But in reality what it turns out is that the EON Super 64 is just a more expensive version of this product, that somehow does less. Yes you don't need to find an N64 S-Video cable, but with the Retrotink you can use it with any old system that has Composite, S-Video or Component video out as long as you want to buy a cable, while the EON product can only be used on the N64 and Gamecube.
Yep. and now that Retro_Access has released a good quality S-video cable at reasonable price for the Nintendo- Multi-Out connector, the Retro-Tink is the no-contest-winner here between these two
@@FinalBaton I'll have to look into that. I currently have a good S-Video cable for my N64, so I don't really need it.
@@AirshBornelyI've been using a Monster Gamecube S-Video cable for N64. It is thick (well-protected). I once had some bad video noise using a cheap n64 Y/C. When I switched it with the Monster cable, there was no noise.
Nukleon have you tried retro tink plus mclassic? Is that possible
And their selling this for $150, fuck them. I want a price drop because this peice of hardware isn't deserving of such of premium price tag
*My Life In Digital Foundry*
< you're damn right I'm pointing to my DP for this one.
Nintendo 64 was my first console... lot of memories
I appreciate the Forsaken Soundtrack being used. Man that gets me in the Nostalgia Glands.
John keeps it so retro he's still saving flavors from the 90's on that flavor saver.
I was literally just thinking about modding my N64 and then this comes along, thank you Johh and DF
Glad it was brought up about the build quality of the Super 64. You know $150 for something that has that kind of quality is not cool in my book.I would say Retrotink or RGB modding would be the ideal solution for N64 players?
Finally, it's so rare to see a Daikatana plug!
rsmith02 I will never agree with the world’s negative sentiment towards Daikatana
Timestamp?
21:24
Daikatana....😂 🤣😂 🤣
Jesus this game was far beyond bad^^
I think the whole thing with Daikatana was the janky 3DS thing. I really can't remember what happened, so take my comment with a grain of salt.
The "film grain" effect mentioned is the "gamma dithering" effect, as I think they call it, It's a weird effect that does both a form of gamma correction and dithering at the same time. It is an effect that is applied by the VI (video interface) as it reads the rendered framebuffer to be output to the DAC. The two main games that come to mind that use it are StarFox 64 and MISSION:IMPOSSIBLE and the graphics themselves or, at least, the rendering, have to be mastered with a darker tone all over specifically so that you can later apply this effect over the resulting rendered graphics, because the effect causes the gamma to go up.
While I may be missing something, some hidden merit of the effect, I think it's a really dumb option that doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Basically they start by making the graphic resources with an inverse gamma curve, or apply it during rendering, and then the filter restores the gamma to it's proper level while also resulting in a smoothing out of the dithering. Since most N64 game render as 15/16 bit RGB and the N64 outputs 21bit RGB (7bit per component instead of 8), there's room to smooth out the dithering resulting from the rendering stage. This may seem good, but the problem is that, in dark areas, because of the darkening during the rendering to accomodate the filter, things become way too dark and dithering artifacts in those areas turn out so strong that even the gamma dither filter can't correct them, and it all just results in even more crappy graphics with no benefit overall.
It's just dumb.
As you probably know, there are tools out there, and manual hack too, that allow you to enable and disable VI settings. This is mostly known for the partial de-blur hacks, similar in scope to the ultrahdmi de-blur.
These tools can toggle other effects too, including the gamma dithering effect, which reveals the darkening of the rendered graphics that I mentioned. You can then enable normal non-dithering gamma correction, but this is also horrible looking because you are just gamma correcting graphics that are heavily dithered in dark areas.
It's a mess really. That effect should never have existed.
In general, Starfox 64 has good graphics (vibrant and not blurry or jagged). But what you've said has conjured-up the underwater level and to a minor extent the rectum-looking thing in one space level. My Player's Choice version of Shadows of the Empire has a debug feature that allows you disable the dither filter. It then became hard to unsee the effect in that game.
I love these types of videos....nerding out with John!!
DF Retro and My Life in Gaming? I'm in fucking heaven
I hearing this video at work....and...is Tom Hanks into video games? Cause I'm hearing he's voice 🤣🤣🤣
lol It totally is if I stop looking at the video.
Cannot be unheard
Oh my God, Try really does sound like Tom Hanks..
I paid a lot for an Ultra HDMI modded N64 and I do not regret it at all. It's a fantastic mod and the deblur gives you all the benefits of the texture filtering without the ghastly vaseline filter the system normally does. I love my crisp pixels.
Antoher great DF Retro, always a pleasure.
Are you working on a DF analysis of Mutant Year Zero on the Switch? That game is in quite a state.
I've been waiting for this.
I didn’t know about the s-video cable for the GameCube, thanks for mentioning that. Sounds like a good option coupled with the retrotink.
When it comes to getting good image quality out of a console, the N64 is a major pain in the ass. Especially the PAL version.
Yeah, why Nintendo added native RGB output to the US console but took it out of the EU version, where people actually had RGB inputs on their TV, that is just baffling. Not to mention they left out certain parts of the S-Video circuitry which would have allowed US cables to work, then neglected to release a European S-Video cable. A standard unmodded EU N64 could only output composite video at best, which is just nasty.
@@Astfgl I know right? Makes literally no sense composite sucks ass here in au
Yeah, getting good S-Video out of a PAL console is a bit of a trip. Easiest way I found was to just buy a high quality NTSC S-Video cable and then wire up an intermediate box with the proper resistors and capacitors myself. So called "PAL" S-Video cables you can get on Ebay or Amazon never actually are (and they're full of composite noise too).
@@Astfgl US N64 are not native RGB. It has to be modded.
@@louaial-obaidi3998 Can you explain to me how to solder those cables? I can solder, but I can't read schematics.
Signed in for DF Retro, got some MLiG as a bonus!
Super 64 is very convenient. Especially when taking it to a friends house. Less wires + no retrotink box to deal with. Love mine.
Nice! Another DF + MLIG crossover
Honestly that N64 composite footage looked really clear! The N64 must have some of the best composite ever! Either that or the blurring covers up the rainbowing.
I have the Ultra HDMI, but I prefer the look of S-Video running through the RetroTINK-2X Pro. The Ultra HDMI with De-Blur enabled, does provide the sharpest digital signal for the N64, but I feel that it steers away from Nintendo’s original intent. Nintendo took advantage of the low quality analog signal, combined with antialiasing to achieve a specific look on a CRT-TV. The N64 graphics on a CRT-TV look clean, without the need of sharp pixels or additional smoothing filters. Therefore the solution of making the N64’s image quality look best on a HDTV, is to mimic the CRT appearance on your HDTV (Not by using ultra sharp pixels or smoothing filters). The RetroTINK-2X Pro can mimic the CRT or PVM appearance by applying SCANLINES on a native analog signal. The Ultra HDMI can also generate SCANLINES, but it’s sharp digital signal brings out the N64’s flaws. Which is why I think it’s important to go with SCANLINES on a analog signal to achieve the clean look that Nintendo and the developers intended.
I honestally I love both the look of N64 through the retro tinx 2X and Ultra HDMI via de blur. They both have their merits and sadly not everyone is willing to show off that sharp pixel look you can get on the N64 via the Ultra HDMI and Game Shark
I want the ultra hdmi but i can't spend $800 for it. I'm happy to hear that the retrotink is preferred to some. Would you know If the EON super 64 is a better choice than the retrotink mini? I do not need it to be compatible with other systems, I don't mind the extra power supply that much and I plan on pairing it with the mclassic.
@@ericko777 I haven’t tested the EON solution. But based on video comparisons, the results look similar to the RetroTINK. I prefer the RetroTINK because it can be used on multiple consoles. All RetroTINK 2X products work great, they offer scanlines and smoothing options. And if you willing to spend more, the RetroTINK 5X is the ultimate solution. You select the N64 profile and the results look very similar to the Ultra HDMI. The only downside RetroTINK 5X doesn’t offer a smoothing option. Maybe Mike Chi can implement that in a future update.
@@chchris25 thank you. I did want the retrotink 5x for my 480i PS2 but I was doing pretty good having it connected to the OSSC so I didn't think it would be worth the $300. However, It would free up a component input on my switch box which would allow me to connect another system to my OSSC. I wasn't sure if it would be worth it to get the 5x over the 2x for the N64 so thank you for the advice. I was leaning towards the Super 64 but now I think the 5x would be the better choice since it provides a better picture quality than the 2x and will free up an input.
You have no excuses not to do a DF Retro on Conker's Bad Fur Day at this point...
Ugh.
@@emmettturner9452 You don't like Conker's BFD?
@@turbochop3300 Bingo.
Been patiently waiting for this!!!
Nice! I wanna see the Eon super 64 with the new mClassic
I love this content from DF 🖤
great video! I'd like to see you guys delve more into the Ultra HDMI since that is the high-standard for playing N64 on OG hardware. I like also how you discussed other options and the pros and of each while other videos were simply praising the Super64. also a small suggestion but I would love if you could put the name of a game somewhere on screen when gameplay footage of it is shown. thanks!
I have both a rgb mod with deblur firmware on a 20'inch BVM and the Ultra HDMI mod on a high end plasma tv. Both options are great. When I play by myself it's on the crt, but if i'm playing with people, its on the plasma.
I have the UltraHDMI and it's the single best video game investment I've ever made.
Amen
Df retro and gamesack would be my ultimate collaboration
EON sells these products at a ridiculous price, yet there's always a BETTER and cheaper alternative.
Carby for Gamecube, hardware mods for the N64.
Nice packaging though.
I currently have the Zelda X Pro GC adapter which is pretty nice and was cheaper than EON adapter
What's carby?
@@iamturokn64 Carby is the name of another HDMI adapter for the Gamecube.
@@MilkerMurphy oh, I see. Thanks.
Thank you for this video! I bought an Eon Super 64 and have been going back and forth if I should have gotten a Retrotink 2X or an RGB mod instead. This video helped me realize the jump from s-video line doubled to 480p is not as significant of a jump to the RGB mod without the deblur. While the retrotink has many more functions I’d be chasing artifacts from bad cables and grounding problems. My one qualm is that the Eon is outputting 480p. I would have liked my TV to process a 480i signal with the bob interlacing and all.
Most modern tvs can't handle 240i 480i without major input lag these days
OMG the Mischief Makers footage. I still have that game lol. Shake shake!
Timely as I'm hoping that when the eventual Switch "Pro" comes out there will also be an updated dock with co-processing for 4k upscaling which would end up being an official version of these 3rd party devices. They've done things like this before if you consider things like the Super GameBoy, 64DD, and N64 Expansion Pack. Not all quite the same I know but they were all post system release peripherals that added/updated the "graphics" and/or output.
Having been playing with ultra HDMI deblur and AA patches for the past two years... I've returned full circle to no deblur or AA patches.
I picked up a 1200p LCD monitor, so I play the N64 with 1200p scaling combined with hybrid scanlines, 1.45 gamma and CRT bloom. The image is insanely authentic to CRT TV's and dare I say beautiful.
Did you to do a Tom Hanks voice overs
Bro I paused just to come and see who else thought this lol I closed my eyes and thought
“💭 Tom hanks ..... a retro gamer”
what type/version of HDMI cable is best? shouldn't even old HDMI cables have no issue since the console video signal is low quality to begin with? Great vid thanks
Don't forget about the mclassic! It combines with these video options for an amazing combined experience!
Ewww... No.
When you’re shopping for n64 S-Video cables: don’t get any that include composite as well. All of those I found have awful checkerboard. Get S-Video only cables and watch reviews if it has a lot of noise or not still. It really is a minefield. That $25 one they mentioned may be worth it.
One game I always found fascinating for how it renders clean, sharp graphics on the N64 is Doom 64. I was able to determine with the UltraHDMI mod that you do not need to turn on deblur function with this game. I'm assuming it somehow bypasses that low res blur by rendering in high res to the video buffer and then downsampling back to a 240p image. That's my best guess anyway, but the only other game I know of that does this is Quake 2. However, that game requires the expansion pak in order to pull off the same trick.
I wish the ultrahdmi had something like the slick filter or the smoothing mode. Tho the scanlines help a LOT.
A relatively inexpensive HDMI-DSUB adapter will allow you to daisy chain either this, or the Retrotink 2X into an OSSC for line doubling up to 960P. The EON adapter's output would just be line doubled up to 960P with or without the smoothing option, but the Retrotink can be set up to use 2x via the default 480P output mode, or using 4X on the OSSC if you leave the Retrotink in bypass mode that only transcodes the 240P signal to digital via the HDMI out without processing. There are MLIG episodes that cover this usage of the Retrotink or other scalers daisy chained with the OSSC. I currently use this setup for my Gamecube as my other systems are connected via component directly to an OSSC and it works fairly well, though component cables, or a Carby would look a bit better.
love that ridge racer 64 soundtrack 👍👍
16:35, the Carby option did the same thing, which was half the price.
Awesome review John. The device does not to seem that bad and might be quite useful for some people that are willing to pay the price. I am retro enthusiast so stuff is nothing for me. I really have my pal N64 hdmi modded and my japanese N64 has a RGB Mod I use along with my framemeister and I am very happy with the results.
Tim Worthington's RGB Kit itself costs 48AU$ (around US$ 33 or €29) and comes with everything you need, except the tools. It also has a nice switchable deblur-feature implemented by Borti4938. So if you can solder, this is by far the best option in terms of price-performance ratio in my opinion. Of course, the Ultra HDMI is even better again, but also much more expensive.
Did I already commented on this video before? Well I got my Retrotink in late 2019 so I got it for the obvious reason to play it without lag and on a modern display, it's my solution to play my retro games downstairs bringing my SCART to Component transcoder to the Retrotink2x, Yes Mike Chi did his cool transcoder that has micro USB to power on the device so I might get for that and replace my transcoder upstairs where I have my CRT TV.
DF and MLiG are so made for each other!
Thanks for covering these! Great to see more DF Retro X MLIG Collaboration
Nice intro/background music to this episode
Rodskagg what’s the guitar tune from again? It’s driving me mad. 😅
That Retrotink might be the answer for not only my N64, but also my Amiga CD32... Hmmmmm...
I'm not sure. The Amigas traditionally output a 15khz RGB signal, you can get a cable that'll work with the OSSC but I don't think there's any way to connect it to the Retrotink without also using an RGB to YpBpR transcoder.
i know you guys have amplifiers like denon and onkyo. did you ever try the integrated converters/upscalers to hdmi? would it be an interesting topic? i have an onkyo one with every analog input available.
OMG you show Goemon. So thats an insta like from me 15/10 would like again.
Bad ass collab
Do you have a link to that recommended s-video cord?
It’s hard to justify the price..honestly the best and easiest way to experience the N64 is a good CRT with an N64 S Video cable. Everything else is getting way too pricey for results that aren’t that good or even worse.
The Retrotink2x is awesome, but I would really appreciate it, if it was available in my country - or available at all. Every time I look it's out if stock.
Great video! I’ve never heard anyone say compoz-it before.
Are you guys gonna review the mClassic? It does wonders on older 3d consoles like the N64 and GameCube.
Oh cool you got Tom Hanks as a guest.
Thanks for the video
Can you make a Mutant Hero Zero compare vídeo ?!? Switch info detailed as well ?
Thanks in advance
Mischief Makers.... I'm done, Best Video of 21019
I want to see how the n64 games looks with hdmi mod and mclassic plugged in!
Filipe Santos did u try this yet?
Still watching, but with the question on the dithering on some N64 games around the 22 minute mark. The N64 computes in 24 bit but outputs 21 bit video. Imagine this results in some dithering.
Great informative video... especially those that love to mod hardware. But thank God for emulation
Love my UltraHdmi
Me ,too!
@@datamanmachine could not imagine spending $150 for hdmi S-Video lol!
I hope to get one installed at some point, currently using an older RGB mod.
The hdmi mods breaks after 2years gahahahahah my mate did 10 to sell 2years ago and all broke it burns the dac chip because it highers the clock speed haha gutted il stick with retrotink. I think you have a year left till its dead haha
I would like to know more about the "film grain effect" your talk at 7:28... I think it's visible in Majora's Mask, even when emulating.
wish I'd known about the retro-access S-video cables, I ended up spending $30 on an original nintendo-made one, and then having to add an RF-sleeve to it to get rid of all the external noise I was getting
So what’s best ? Using a CRT tv with the 64 or using the EON or similar lead on a newer tv ?
Retrotink plus the upcoming mclassic should make a nice improvement on your screen I would think.
I have them and have been using them for months. They do look good together.
Nintendo please let me buy N64 games on my Switch.Thats all I need right now,well,maybe gamecube games too.
Yes and make sure they're upscaled to 1080p as well please, with none of that blurry, anti-aliasing nonsense. Oh and we wish to buy at a fair price too, not rent, in case that wasn't clear. I mean, is this really too much to ask in 2019?!
Hello, does the EON 64 image improve if you have the RGB mod?
Did you guys get an mClassic review unit?
Man, I sure wish you guys came out with this video a few weeks ago before I bought an EON Super 64, I would have either gotten a Retrotink2X (no EON google searches even gave me any articles comparing the two).
After seeing those pictures of poor workmanship on the EON 64 and the fact I haven't tried my yet I'm worried about mine.
Hey Guys amazing video. I’m new here, I’ve just bought a OSSC and converted my N64 with a RGB mode, but to be honest I prefer a slick image and till this moment I couldn’t set the image in OSSC smoothed or slicked. In my tv when I’m playing Zelda TOT the character’s line mix with scenario images and this annoy me a little bit. I set according many videos fro TH-cam by any of them provides me a kind of slick image.
Could you please help me solve this problem with OSSC? Have you ever showed OSSC settings here in this channel ?
the eon should also work on snes and gc (and analog only ones I must add, unlike the other adapter), not only n64, since all those systems use the same cable. or am I missing something?
Oh come on, I was waiting for you guys to show Goldeneye in HDMI.
Yeah the one thing I think this video is lacking is good side-by-side comparison footage of all the available options. Most of the footage of each device is using a different game and there’s very little direct comparison. That said, the N64’s output is quite blurry so I don’t think there would be that much in it. It would have been cool to see some GoldenEye with the 640x480 patch installed too. ;)
Yeah DF content has been lacking lately. Too much discussion type videos with 2 people talking instead of indepth analysis.
From what I heard, the EON device in this video works with SNES and GC, but with mixed results. The GC makes sense as to why it doesn't look as as the EON plug in for GC as this one only uses the S-Video from the system, instead of the hardware's 480p mode. Thing is, I would only pay $150 for a device like this if it did work at the best between all 3 systems. The N64 plug in should be half its current price at least, then people would be happier with it.
It would be nice to have a Nintendo 64 with deblur and overclocked so games run at a stable framerate.
I'm hearing the Super 64 combined with the mClassic is pretty breathtaking.
It's still only about 75% as good as Ultra HDMI with mClassic for most games, or so I've heard..
Only if you care about anti aliasing
THANKS
Isn't there a line of onkyo receivers that uses the same chipset as the framemeister for scaling?
For PAL territories out only options is emulators with ntsc roms for 60hz anyway these are good solutions for NTSC territories
NTSC consoles and games are often cheaper than PAL ones, at least where I'm from. You might have to find a PAL power supply, but modern TVs and even many later CRTs can handle the video signal just fine.
I just watched this entire video while piss-ass drunk. I have absolutely no idea what the fuck you just talked about. I also loved every second of it.
Try getting a correct Saturn RGB signal. PITFA. A PAL cable just fried my Saturn too
Thank you based John
There’s waitlists and no stock on mods right now for the N64. I use an Eon Super 64 paired with an MClassic it looks good enough on my HD TV.
Everyone trash talks the Eon and recommends the RetroTink 2X but those are out of stock also last time I checked. Plus I’m only playing my N64 not any other retro consoles.
The cost of the Eon + MClassic is comparable to what I would pay for a mod, add on top the costs and shipping associated with having someone install the mod for me
The Eon and MClassic are more than sufficient for me personally.
I’ve got the Ultra HDMI mod, some games look better with de-blur on and some look better with it off. Scanlines also make a difference depending on the game too.
I tend to find “realistic” looking games like GoldenEye look worse with de-blur on as it makes them look a bit scruffy and messy. The N64’s natural blurring would often hide sins. Nintendo games and more cartoony stuff look pretty sharp when de-blurred; although you can still spot unexpected things, e.g. the puff of dust kicked up when Mario skids doesn’t seem to actually be using any alpha blending and is instead just dithered, which the N64’s blurring would normally hide.
Still, whatever you choose, it’s definitely worth getting something to connect your N64 to a modern TV as it’s an awesome console and I’ve been playing mine almost constantly since getting it modded a year or two ago.
how well do they hhandle games that switch resolution a lot? like RE2 on n64? i have a couple of hdmi scalers and they dont work or it takes a bit for it to switch resolution resulting in a black screen for a few moments. also in some games the colors are incorrect... like the sand in mario64 which turns white when i plug it in to my hdtv or through a scaler
I saw Adam Koralik's video review of the EON Super 64 and he specifically tried RE2 and it choked.
actually i found more modern TVs with composite input and completely lack the component input (some have component that can also be used as composite), but those are few and far in between.
I went with a eon adaptor and a mclassic because rgb mods and boards are impossible to find in 2021 🤔. Pandemic did a number on shops and supply. It does look pretty damn solid at 1440p. Hoping the solution gets fixed or nintendo gets around to porting their games
If you plug the M Classic to the EON the N 64 looks amazing.. best choice ever. But yes like you said its expensive.. The EON should be around $50 to $60
do you have those?
Nintendrew did a video to this products :)
Theres nothing stopping you from also using the mclassic with retrotink2x
@@ians_parks true,, but I just dont like the retro tink to much..
@@dimitrios0072 yea,, I ordered 2 of them for my scart consoles
I'm surprised you didn't mention using patches on a flashcart to disable the blurring/AA, it's a decent option on a stock N64 if sharp pixels in 3D games is what you want.
Using a Flash Cart or GameShark doesn't remove the same blurring that the VI Deblur of the Ultra HDMI.
what is the song in the intro? its so good
If you're confident in soldering yourself,then the price of this is very close to the UltraHDMI mod. It really should be priced around £50-70 imo.
*If you're confident in soldering* being the key words, many people are not, and rather than have to crack open and potentially ruin a system, they'd prefer a dongle that simply plugs into the back.
But at this price, I'd say it's better to just get the retrotink and a high-quality S-video Cable
@@yellowblanka6058 That's why I said it. Doesn't stop this being overpriced
Quick question guys does the retrotinx 2x have a pass-through mode? I really wanna use this with my N64 via s-video and this HDMI to VGA cord and a monoprice VGA to component video cable on a CRT TV
Yes, it has a passthrough, 2x, and smoothing mode.
Great video 👍