My understanding about Ocelot is that, in MGS 2, he actually is being possessed by Liquid Snake, hence why Liquid's voice comes out of him and replaces his own voice. But after the game, he had the arm amputated and a prosthetic made with the same artificial muscles as Old Snake's Octocamo Suit is attached in its place. He then uses hypnotherapy to convince himself that he is fully Liquid Snake. Though that alone cannot change his voice. Then during the final CQC fight against him on top of Arsenal Gear, he slowly awakens to his true self again and dies as Ocelot. Also, it's so poetic that Ocelot is the first boss Solid Snake fights in the MGS series, and the last boss Solid Snake Fights in the MGS series.
Ocelot being the son of The Sorrow and inheriting his abilities as a spirit medium gives him the perfect cover story to explain the “possession” by Liquid and going rogue. But as we see in MGS3 Ocelot doesn’t actually have this ability. Otherwise he would’ve seen his dad’s ghost… so the clue was there even one game prior, the possession made sense- but it didn’t. It would make sense to anyone it was designed to fool- aka the patriots Ai who have the files and information on The Sorrow and his abilities and while they can select what’s known publicly, they KNOW. Also it needed to be as convincing as all that for Snake to believe Liquid was back from the dead. And that worked. We see in MGS2 how snake buys it hook line and sinker. In MGS4 they would never have been able to work together because Snavid has never seen Ocelot as a straight shooter. Pun and literally intended. All Ocelot could do was lead Snavid down that road to GW and let him destroy it while pretending to be controlled by Liquid. Getting beat to death by Snavid may not have been part of the plan, but the world was United and free from the patriots. He accomplished BB and his mother’s plan for a world without war and borders. The guns of the patriots could be put to rest and the sons of the patriots would be allowed to die in peace. Not revived and stuffed in exoskeletons. Not artificially comatose and kept alive in digital limbo on nanomachinelife support. It was all a well staged game of doublethink. Where Ocelot also had to believe he’d been possessed and have no memory of his time blacked out and under Liquids influence. Hypnotherapy was the only way to keep that ruse going. But towards the end of the game the hypnagogic supplanted personality seemed to be slipping. And it all sounds so far fetched that he wouldn’t even be able to tell Snavid what the true mission was… he just had to see it through to the end. Loyal to The End. Just like his mother. Laying in that field of Bethlehem flowers- as a Snake pulled the trigger. It’s the same strong spirit of duty to a world worth dying for.
I think this is all plausible, but I want to back up a second. I think one of the biggest unanswered questions here is *why* Ocelot adopted the Liquid persona in the first place, not only *how* he pulled it off. Why not just go through with his plan as himself? Why do the hypnotherapy at all and make people think he's possessed? Let's consider what Ocelot actually needs, logistically, for his plan to work. The main ingredients in Ocelot's plan appear to be (1) physically stealing GW (which happens offscreen between MGS2 and MGS4), (2) gaining access to the AIs via GW (which he uses BB's DNA, or rather Solidus, to accomplish), and finally (3) creating and uploading a virus to destroy the other AIs (Naomi does some of this, then they initially plan to have Otacon finish the virus, but then the plan switches to Sunny). Why does any of this strictly require fooling the Patriots, or fooling Solid Snake, into believing Ocelot is possessed by Liquid?
@@Megaritz with the B&B unit resembling foxhound, it's pretty simple. Ocelot knew the patriots would try the same thing again knowing it would work. Sending in Solid to deal with liquid which is what he used to bring the patriots down.
Right??? Why was his first thought to start swapping arms??? I heard somewhere that Gray Fox may have taken Ocelot's arm and that's why he was in the market for new arms, but that just brings up more questions! Why would Gray Fox take Ocelot's arm??? Why was he in the market for arms??? Or was it just a trophy...?
I believe that in MGS 2, Ocelot was *actually* possessed by Liquid. In that game, whenever he gets possessed, he speaks with Liquid's voice, as opposed to MGS 4 where he just has 1 voice. In MGS 2, Ocelot also has a normal, human arm, while in MGS 4, he has a bionic arm. Therefore I believe that sometime after MGS 2, Ocelot cut off Liquid's arm and regained control. And then decided to use the new opportunity to set up a plan to free Big Boss, using the consciousness of Liquid. And I suppose it makes sense that it would be easier to trick yourself into being a different person via hypnosis when you were previously possessed by them
@@BrayJones3 I was solely talking about MGS 2. I absolutely believe he was using hypnotherapy in MGS 4, but the details suggest that he was genuinely possessed during MGS 2
@TheFamousChang Actually, MGS4 rectonned every lore that was stated on the original three parts. Liquid Snake really did possess Ocelot if you played MGS3 Snake Eater on the scene after Big Boss escaped from his torture. It confirmed how Liquid was able to possess Ocelot. Sigint gave Naked Snake information about the Sorrow, who was well known to be one of the Cobra units who have a relationship with the Boss, and she was forced to kill him to complete her mission and had a son from him. The Sorrow has a supernatural ability to communicate with the dead and has them possess his body. Even in the opening of MGS2 Sons of Liberty, there was a hint that Ocelot inherent his father ability, when he shot down one of Sergi Gurlukovich men, and seal the door, he said to his corpse "the Colonel will be with you soon comrade." Meaning that he is talking to his ghost. Even liquid is important to Ocelot's goals. This is why Ocelot has a part of Liquid in him to carry his flesh and spirit to carry out his plan to destroy the Patriots.
@@tinaherr3856 yhh alot of reconning happened eh, well 4 was the last in the story of the patriots and snake so I go off of that as ocelot says in mgs2 " NO SUCH THING AS MIRACLES OR THE SUPERNATURAL, ONLY CUTTING EDGE TECHNOLOGY"
Snavid is a brilliant nickname for Solid Snake 😛 Ocelot is the true main character of the series so his motives were always in question whenever I saw him show up. Ocelot was clearly madly in love with Big Boss though so under everything he did I knew that BB must be involved in some way, shape or form. He probably knew that BB would die from Snavid's FOXDIE anyway but perhaps BB's wish of returning to zero was good enough for him to sacrifice everything to make it happen...Then again, this is Ocelot we're talking about, perhaps we'll never *truly* know 😛 You're pretty good! 👈😜👈
I saw "Snavid" somewhere online and thought the exact same thing haha! And right?? Ocelot was for sure in love with BB and I only wish BB had the emotional capacity to see it. He was betrayed by almost everyone who was close to him, but not by Ocelot. Ocelot would never betray him. So I also always figure whatever Ocelot's up to it's probably BB related haha But I def couldn't predict MGS4's twist ending!
After playing MGS1 25 years ago, I didn't know Ocelot was working for the Patriots but was ultimately a member of Big Boss's Patriots splinter faction. MGS2 was tricking everyone but after having Liquid's arm grafted on, it was evident enough to see where his allegiance was. As Eva/Big Mama said, he was fighting for Big Boss as he idolized him
Absolutely, Ocelot is always fighting for Big Boss! It's honestly sweet that BB finally had such a loyal companion after a lifetime of being betrayed by those closest to him
While it's not outright a ghost haunting, I do think that it's still close enough to Liquid "coming back from the grave," to still be considered a way for him to escape his destiny. He did live on in a way.
Aw I love this! I love the thought that Liquid was still able to escape his destiny, even if it was only symbolically as Ocelot pretended to be him. I hope that gives Liquid's spirit some peace (tho knowing Liquid it probably doesn't haha He's always amped for a fight! I don't think anything could give him any peace)
Dang you should have bugged me! I love meeting fellow MGS fans!! I did have such a blast at MGSCON2 tho and can't wait for next year!! I hope you had fun too!!
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The AI mdoels would have been trained on data controlled by Zero. Zero was a bit of a nut who believed in various supernatural things. He would have ensured that the AIs would take his beliefs into account, ostensibly including the possibility of possession via the attachment of body parts. AIs are powerful, but do not have common sense What boggles my mind is where anyone got the notion of spiritual powers being heritable or genetic. That's a dumb idea and I think people need to just accept that they were dumb to think that and are still dumb for clinging to that notion. I was postulating that it was hypnosis, acting, or some mind/voice altering technology before mgs4 even came out, so there have always been other choices
I wish Solidus and Snavid teamed up!! It would have made them all so much more efficient in MGS2 and they might have actually made some headway in taking them down instead of wasting time trying to take each other down
@@luffiewebster I doubt that David would ever team up with someone that follows BB's Outer Heaven ideology. In MGS4 David is also against nuking the John Doe AI satelite, which was one of George's goals.
My understanding about Ocelot is that, in MGS 2, he actually is being possessed by Liquid Snake, hence why Liquid's voice comes out of him and replaces his own voice. But after the game, he had the arm amputated and a prosthetic made with the same artificial muscles as Old Snake's Octocamo Suit is attached in its place. He then uses hypnotherapy to convince himself that he is fully Liquid Snake. Though that alone cannot change his voice. Then during the final CQC fight against him on top of Arsenal Gear, he slowly awakens to his true self again and dies as Ocelot.
Also, it's so poetic that Ocelot is the first boss Solid Snake fights in the MGS series, and the last boss Solid Snake Fights in the MGS series.
i still cant unsee liquid ocelot as axl rose when he wears the sunglasses
Ocelot being the son of The Sorrow and inheriting his abilities as a spirit medium gives him the perfect cover story to explain the “possession” by Liquid and going rogue.
But as we see in MGS3 Ocelot doesn’t actually have this ability. Otherwise he would’ve seen his dad’s ghost… so the clue was there even one game prior, the possession made sense- but it didn’t.
It would make sense to anyone it was designed to fool- aka the patriots Ai who have the files and information on The Sorrow and his abilities and while they can select what’s known publicly, they KNOW.
Also it needed to be as convincing as all that for Snake to believe Liquid was back from the dead.
And that worked. We see in MGS2 how snake buys it hook line and sinker.
In MGS4 they would never have been able to work together because Snavid has never seen Ocelot as a straight shooter.
Pun and literally intended.
All Ocelot could do was lead Snavid down that road to GW and let him destroy it while pretending to be controlled by Liquid.
Getting beat to death by Snavid may not have been part of the plan, but the world was United and free from the patriots.
He accomplished BB and his mother’s plan for a world without war and borders.
The guns of the patriots could be put to rest and the sons of the patriots would be allowed to die in peace. Not revived and stuffed in exoskeletons. Not artificially comatose and kept alive in digital limbo on nanomachinelife support.
It was all a well staged game of doublethink. Where Ocelot also had to believe he’d been possessed and have no memory of his time blacked out and under Liquids influence.
Hypnotherapy was the only way to keep that ruse going. But towards the end of the game the hypnagogic supplanted personality seemed to be slipping.
And it all sounds so far fetched that he wouldn’t even be able to tell Snavid what the true mission was… he just had to see it through to the end.
Loyal to The End.
Just like his mother.
Laying in that field of Bethlehem flowers- as a Snake pulled the trigger. It’s the same strong spirit of duty to a world worth dying for.
Wait, was I the first to comment?
Take a bow. You nailed it.
@@Gaz66d beautifully said, all boxes ticked, well done
I think this is all plausible, but I want to back up a second. I think one of the biggest unanswered questions here is *why* Ocelot adopted the Liquid persona in the first place, not only *how* he pulled it off. Why not just go through with his plan as himself? Why do the hypnotherapy at all and make people think he's possessed?
Let's consider what Ocelot actually needs, logistically, for his plan to work. The main ingredients in Ocelot's plan appear to be (1) physically stealing GW (which happens offscreen between MGS2 and MGS4), (2) gaining access to the AIs via GW (which he uses BB's DNA, or rather Solidus, to accomplish), and finally (3) creating and uploading a virus to destroy the other AIs (Naomi does some of this, then they initially plan to have Otacon finish the virus, but then the plan switches to Sunny).
Why does any of this strictly require fooling the Patriots, or fooling Solid Snake, into believing Ocelot is possessed by Liquid?
@@Megaritz with the B&B unit resembling foxhound, it's pretty simple. Ocelot knew the patriots would try the same thing again knowing it would work. Sending in Solid to deal with liquid which is what he used to bring the patriots down.
Still not sure why he didn’t just attach his own arm back on
Right??? Why was his first thought to start swapping arms??? I heard somewhere that Gray Fox may have taken Ocelot's arm and that's why he was in the market for new arms, but that just brings up more questions! Why would Gray Fox take Ocelot's arm??? Why was he in the market for arms??? Or was it just a trophy...?
I believe that in MGS 2, Ocelot was *actually* possessed by Liquid. In that game, whenever he gets possessed, he speaks with Liquid's voice, as opposed to MGS 4 where he just has 1 voice.
In MGS 2, Ocelot also has a normal, human arm, while in MGS 4, he has a bionic arm.
Therefore I believe that sometime after MGS 2, Ocelot cut off Liquid's arm and regained control. And then decided to use the new opportunity to set up a plan to free Big Boss, using the consciousness of Liquid.
And I suppose it makes sense that it would be easier to trick yourself into being a different person via hypnosis when you were previously possessed by them
He wasn't possessed big boss literally says at the end of 4, it was self hypnotherapy
@@BrayJones3 I was solely talking about MGS 2. I absolutely believe he was using hypnotherapy in MGS 4, but the details suggest that he was genuinely possessed during MGS 2
@TheFamousChang Actually, MGS4 rectonned every lore that was stated on the original three parts. Liquid Snake really did possess Ocelot if you played MGS3 Snake Eater on the scene after Big Boss escaped from his torture. It confirmed how Liquid was able to possess Ocelot. Sigint gave Naked Snake information about the Sorrow, who was well known to be one of the Cobra units who have a relationship with the Boss, and she was forced to kill him to complete her mission and had a son from him. The Sorrow has a supernatural ability to communicate with the dead and has them possess his body. Even in the opening of MGS2 Sons of Liberty, there was a hint that Ocelot inherent his father ability, when he shot down one of Sergi Gurlukovich men, and seal the door, he said to his corpse "the Colonel will be with you soon comrade." Meaning that he is talking to his ghost. Even liquid is important to Ocelot's goals. This is why Ocelot has a part of Liquid in him to carry his flesh and spirit to carry out his plan to destroy the Patriots.
@@gabrielandjavierpinales3689 How 4 retconned this? In 2 he was possessed, in 4 it was hypnotherapy.
@@tinaherr3856 yhh alot of reconning happened eh, well 4 was the last in the story of the patriots and snake so I go off of that as ocelot says in mgs2 " NO SUCH THING AS MIRACLES OR THE SUPERNATURAL, ONLY CUTTING EDGE TECHNOLOGY"
i had absolutely no idea what was going on the first time i saw mgs4 lol
Snavid is a brilliant nickname for Solid Snake 😛 Ocelot is the true main character of the series so his motives were always in question whenever I saw him show up. Ocelot was clearly madly in love with Big Boss though so under everything he did I knew that BB must be involved in some way, shape or form. He probably knew that BB would die from Snavid's FOXDIE anyway but perhaps BB's wish of returning to zero was good enough for him to sacrifice everything to make it happen...Then again, this is Ocelot we're talking about, perhaps we'll never *truly* know 😛 You're pretty good! 👈😜👈
I saw "Snavid" somewhere online and thought the exact same thing haha! And right?? Ocelot was for sure in love with BB and I only wish BB had the emotional capacity to see it. He was betrayed by almost everyone who was close to him, but not by Ocelot. Ocelot would never betray him. So I also always figure whatever Ocelot's up to it's probably BB related haha But I def couldn't predict MGS4's twist ending!
Im pretty sure he was controlled by Liquid during MGS2, but replaced that arm and continued pretending to be possesed in MGS4
After playing MGS1 25 years ago, I didn't know Ocelot was working for the Patriots but was ultimately a member of Big Boss's Patriots splinter faction. MGS2 was tricking everyone but after having Liquid's arm grafted on, it was evident enough to see where his allegiance was. As Eva/Big Mama said, he was fighting for Big Boss as he idolized him
Absolutely, Ocelot is always fighting for Big Boss! It's honestly sweet that BB finally had such a loyal companion after a lifetime of being betrayed by those closest to him
You have to doublethink. -BB to Ocelot in MGS V casettes.
Not too short not too long, sweet bideo
While it's not outright a ghost haunting, I do think that it's still close enough to Liquid "coming back from the grave," to still be considered a way for him to escape his destiny. He did live on in a way.
Aw I love this! I love the thought that Liquid was still able to escape his destiny, even if it was only symbolically as Ocelot pretended to be him. I hope that gives Liquid's spirit some peace (tho knowing Liquid it probably doesn't haha He's always amped for a fight! I don't think anything could give him any peace)
Inner Heaven
😂 This is what all the characters in Metal Gear Solid SHOULD have been striving for haha Inner heaven
@@luffiewebster MGS: Vacation Bible School
I saw you at MGSCon yesterday! Didn't want to bugg you, but hope you had fun!
coward
Dang you should have bugged me! I love meeting fellow MGS fans!! I did have such a blast at MGSCON2 tho and can't wait for next year!! I hope you had fun too!!
Without ocelot there wouldnt be no Metal Gear series
Rare Luffie Webster post
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What was ocelot up to? The answer is yes
100% 😂
new luffie new us
Everyone swollen every lie Ocelot fed them
I mean he passed through people of presidency
Eliminated some even
No wonder he is the son of The Boss
The AI mdoels would have been trained on data controlled by Zero. Zero was a bit of a nut who believed in various supernatural things. He would have ensured that the AIs would take his beliefs into account, ostensibly including the possibility of possession via the attachment of body parts. AIs are powerful, but do not have common sense
What boggles my mind is where anyone got the notion of spiritual powers being heritable or genetic. That's a dumb idea and I think people need to just accept that they were dumb to think that and are still dumb for clinging to that notion. I was postulating that it was hypnosis, acting, or some mind/voice altering technology before mgs4 even came out, so there have always been other choices
Solidus teamed up with Snavid? When?
Luffie said they *should* have teamed up, not that they *did* team up.
@@Megaritz Ok, I missheard it then.
I wish Solidus and Snavid teamed up!! It would have made them all so much more efficient in MGS2 and they might have actually made some headway in taking them down instead of wasting time trying to take each other down
@@luffiewebster I doubt that David would ever team up with someone that follows BB's Outer Heaven ideology. In MGS4 David is also against nuking the John Doe AI satelite, which was one of George's goals.
A lot.
😂
my wish to find a wife like you