Italian Mystery: Venice View Creates Double Artist Conundrum | Fake Or Fortune
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 ก.ย. 2024
- Philip Mould and Fiona Bruce investigate a highly desirable Venetian view. The painting was inherited by owner Nick Hopkinson from his great grandfather Meyer Spielman, but there's a mystery about it that he would love to solve. Could this be a work by one of the Italian masters - either Francesco Guardi or Michele Marieschi?
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This result is obviously so satisfying for the owner. He gets to keep and enjoy a painting he truly loves without the burden of family members bugging him to sell it because it is disgustingly valuable. He certainly looked ‘tickled pink’ at the result to me. 🎉🎉❤
He was remarkably gracious about accepting the result. British upper-class manners, something I admire.
So, what Englishman painted this beautiful painting? I would love to know this bit of information .
Jings I’m sure if it was worth 10m he’d have had no problem selling and taking his share. The irony that the ancestors bought it as one thing then tried to present it as another then generations later get caught up exposing an even bigger fraud is not lost. If he’d not got Fake or Fortune in he could have possibly flogged it for 1/2m. Greed ruins everything.
An anonymous forger working in London before 1808, clearly. I wish they had carbon-dated the wax on the Florence seal. Then we would’ve found if it was English wax or Tuscan wax that was used, as well as the year it was produced.
Wow! Very British style detective story. Very professional, full of details and never boring. So nice to hear when British people pronounce correctly Italian names.
At the end, Mr Hopkins looks to be almost relieved by learning that the painting is not that highly valuable. So, he can keep it within his family as a heirloom dear to his heart.
i like fiona bruce a lot, i really respect an English woman who keeps her boots on in bed
This series is like Agatha Christy’s mystery of the art world, except no murders, except of the art owners dreams. 😉
Whomever painted it did a beautiful job except for the building mistaken for two and the italian wax seal . I feel this was a reproduction for the tourist trade done by an accomplished artist to rival Marieschi's version for less money . There are many instances all over the world of artist and craftsman creating similar products exclusively for tourists because of the bigger net and easier sale . The color foundation is also similar albeit out of order but shows how the unknown artist wanted the ground layers to resemble Marieschi's . However you analyze it, the technique of a vanishing point reflects on Brunelleschi"s Baptistery painting c 1420.
The cupola is wrong too. Currently it looks like it's zinc, not something you get in the UK and therefore something a Brit wouldn't understand (I had a friend staying and I lived on the top floor in Paris, and he looked out and said "What's that grey stuff? It was just the roofs opposite...). It looks like the guy was used to Wren buildings, the scene could be London with water.
The basilica of Santa Maria della Salute Is not by Vincenzo Scamozzi, how it is said, but by the most important Venetian baroque architect, Baldassarre Longhena.
The best painting owner i ever seen. Hugs from Brazil !
Intriguing story filled with many twists and turns. Fun adventure and the painting is beautiful. 🌞
I thought the wax seal was the seal of a magistrate; perhaps the painter took it to Venice and bribed a magistrate to stamp it? Was the entire stamp forged? How did they match the exact texture and color of the wax? I have questions.
that would be material for what the Italians call 'un giallo' and very exciting...!
Isnt it odd that they never mentioned that Canaletto worked in England for a time?
49:35 how he tries to expand the picture. lol
I don’t love that the only Guardi painting they showed was no real comparison at all to this painting. Like not even close. Surely he painted better more elaborate pictures than that
I have learnt watching these videos that painting world has so many forgeries and its astounding the lengths artists who copy orginals are so abundant and fool the public thinking that the copy is an original. If it happened to me I get rid of the bloody painting!
I’m not convinced that the wax seal was just put on there as a fake.
It's now a very tough world for a forger to make a buck! Makes you long for the age of innocence when even the victim went home quite happy with their purchase.🌞
I feel like I only ever see negativ results on this show
Particularly the episode about the Renoir.Obviously the family that authenticates them is very corrupt
Well his grandad was liberal with the truth !!
This show is ridiculously fabulous! Thank you so much for posting to TH-cam!
I agree ❤🎉
Me too ❤
❤❤❤
I love the show, but HATE all the spoilers in the intro!!!!😡
Are they still making these videos ?
I think Nick saying the painting is more important to him as a lovely reminder of a childhood... is priceless.
If it had been worth half a million pounds, the family might have *had* to sell it. The cost of insuring a painting like that is way too high for most people to pay - they'd have money but not the painting they love.
Great episode, though IDK about the final conclusion about it being a British artist. The reasoning seemed somewhat implausible. To assume that someone would go to the lengths of faking a little known detail of a magisterial stamp of FLORENCE (note not Venice) on what was supposed to be a common souvenir knock off, not a major artist, just seems unlikely. You would assume that IF they could fake little details like the seal so well, then whoever painted that painting would know enough to get not only the methods but Venice right.
Second, artist of that period who did "views" often took artistic liberties (I think we were even shown some), changing buildings' proportions slightly or their positions to get a nicer composition. Some painters were more faithful to reality, and some were more willing to be a bit "creative" with some details, but only to the degree that it still remained utterly recognizable as a whole. However, taking artistic license can mean that once in while that which is painted, while visually lovely, no longer makes complete architectural sense. As to the canvas, the artist could be reusing an old canvas of better weave, scraped clean, which may account for the unusual paint layers.
So, IDK, but I would not want to disregard that seal, and on such flimsy evidence assume that the painting was British. By all indications it was painted by some unknown Italian artist, probably of the school of Marieschi, who might have lived in Venice for a time, but later returned/moved to Florence. The painting could even have been painted at a later date in the artist's life, when they were painting the scene more from memory and habit.
Re your first point, it wouldn't have had to be the original artist who put the seal on - someone who wanted to sell it later could have done it. They might have known it wasn't a genuine painting by Marieschi, and tried to redirect attention based on an Italian place name. That it was Firenze instead of Venezia might not be such a big deal because the seal was for a court in Firenze that dealt with the possessions of bankrupt families - it wasn't the seal of an original seller. I'm not sure if the purview of a Florence court would extend to Venice, but there's also probably less of a chance that someone who'd bought a painting OF Venice would be living IN Venice. Though it's always possible the painting was by an English person who sold it to an English person who then went abroad to live in Florence, or something of that kind.
A lame pun about this painting just came to my mind: the painting is Marie-ESQUE.
@@SchlichteToven The problem is the timing, assuming the seal is genuine. The painting is undoubtedly done in the Marieschi style, so either has to be by someone who worked with him or someone trying to copy him. Marieschi had a rather short but very productive life until 1744, where he worked with a host of other artists to produce his scenes of Venice. Some of them could easily have kept going after his death. Or some other local artist could be copying his work for sale. But it has to end up in Florence in a bankruptcy court before 1808. That's at most 60 years. That's not really enough time to assume it went abroad and back again without some paper trail indicating the fact. So more logical to assume that the painting was either painted in Venice and bought by someone who lived in Florence, or painted in Florence and sold there- sometime in 1750-60, and later to go into a bankruptcy auction at the end of the 1700s.
Look at the bright side. Now his brother won't ask him to sell it.
EXACTLY!
Nick said at the beginning that if it were up to him, he'd keep it in the family. I'm happy for him that (presumably) he got to. And the provenance will make for an even more interesting family story. I love your show!
I was thinking the same thing. He loves the painting and now, presumably, won't have to deal with outside pressures to sell it.
I'm with him. Whomever painted it (English or no) did a lovely job, and I agree about that figure in the front. As a writer, I'm rather taken by the fact that there was a painter so skilled they thought to throw a Firenzi stamp on it. It tickles the imagination!
This just exposes the silliness of art pricing. “We love the picture but it is worth 20 times as much depending on which we’ll-known artist created it”. The picture doesn’t change. It is so shallow, not about the quality of the art AT ALL. Blaargh.
I’ve always hated that. Just because an artist got lucky enough to get noticed (or maybe get a rich patron) all their works, no matter how good or bad they are, are worth 100x-1000x the value of a superior artist’s who never got his/her lucky break.
But then I’m not an art snob…as they say “I just know what I like”😜
I wouldn't be so certain this was British. It could certainly have been created in Florence by an artist unfamiliar with Venetian architecture; that could account for the discrepancies the expert notes, and would not require the outlandish theory that the red stamp was some kind of effort to forge an Italian identity.
Good idea
But the canvas under the microscope? ("More like English canvases in structure. Looser weave.") And then, the paint? I know that I was thinking "So what?" But then, schools dictate certain orders for colours. (One learnt methods and stuck to them).
You got to give it to the Brits, they are the best television makers in the world
along with much-vaunted OTT ceremonial...😁
This is the one and only show that never disappoints, regardless of the outcome of the painting.
Nick seems like a down to earth guy who's enjoying the ride and really enjoyed it. The experience enriches the painting.
Great show! I do miss Dr. Bendor very much!
Me too!!!
Beyond grateful that a show like this exists.
😍
I JUST LOVE THIS SHOW, thanks for posting, thanks for making it for so long. What a beautiful painting and what amazing artists the 2 front runners are. Only 12mins in so outcome unknown and going from history could be a fake or fortune. But it’s a wonderful piece no matter what.
The wax mark gets us back to 1808, forging that would be extremely difficult. But alot of paintings were made for tourists, I find it hard to believe to do them in time you'd use vermilion underneath, it slows the construction time. Also the dark quality of the building lowers acceptance of potential buyers. Still alot of questions!
New favourite show to binge on. Fantastic presenters.
Thanks for posting this episode …one I haven’t seen before … keep it up 😁
Yes PLEASE keep it up !!!
Who would fake an unknown at the time artist? It makes no sense at all. I think this is a genuine Marieschi who made a bunch of identical paintings because they were selling well.
But they WERE known. That was the problem. They were the rock stars of their time. (Think Coco Chanel, Yves Saint Laurent, Tom Ford, etc. and knockoffs).
It is good that the history has been clarified. It is still a beautiful painting with a fascinating story, I am amazed that someone with so much talent was making these views like postcards. It is still a treasure!
I want to know who painted it, I'm sure they could find out as he was very good.
Some fakers have enormous talent!!!
Because its not the painting that fetches the money its the name. The painting is every bit excellent but one name would make it into millions and another into few thousands.
I can’t understand why someone wouldn’t sign their paintings.
Copy and fake are not synonymous. In fact, it was quite common in past centuries for works to be copied by other artists. The painter never signed it as Marieschi, someone assumed it was one.
Great channel. Keep it up
I mean, after all is said and done, it IS a beautiful painting!
Sometimes, when it's beautiful, it not being expensive is a blessing. There was an episode where they needed to sell the painting because they had lost their father, but the painting was so at home in their house, it was a shame.
Ha, did some genealogy and it turned out the stories (which I only half believed) were true. Family histories can be surprising...
Definitely!
When I was taught Venetian painting technique at University we were taught to put a layer of vermillion red over the gesso layer (white). Some things make you go hummm...
Very good episode. All the twists and turns. Our loving ancestors were human
Hmm. The imitator's version is more appealing than The Real Thing: the Fitzwilliiam painting less charming and rigid compared with Nick's painting. I think other applications of vermillion by Marieschi should have been examined. At any rate..the .art world is rather nutty.
@Emma Hardesty It is a little nutty - but I love it! :D and I have to agree, I prefer Nick’s copy to the original Marieschi 🤷🏻♀️👍🏻
Oh that is a beautiful painting! I'm so glad he doesn't feel obligated to sell it, it's gorgeous.
As usual, another very good show. Thanks. I enjoyed every moment.
I highly appreciate the professional and very well done work of the production team. Very skilled video-photography with high end cameras and lens equipment,, and wonderful crips and clean audio-recordings. I wonder what kind of microphones and technique they used? The post editing and music chosen supplements the dramatic and faschinating story and history of this beautiful and creative 1700s painting- It¨s a pure pleasure to listen to Fiona Bruce and Philip Mould, who express themselves in a expressive and sophisticated language. Thank you for this captivating episode. Kind regards from Copenhagen, Denmark.
Michael this show was made by the BBC which is why the production quality is so high
Yeah, might want to check granddad's desk drawer for that wax seal stamp.
I’m not an art person, but I really enjoy this show. It’s also educating me on art, so I appreciate the mystery and the art lesson. Thanks.
So, Meyer spielman purchased the painting to mark the 25th wedding anniversary. Nick is loosey goosey with dates, but does mention 1882 in re the wedding. 1882 - 1907 = 25.
I like that this expert is willing to give his opinion directly and answer questions.
I think you missed a clue. Why does an English painting appear in the archives of a Florence probate magisterium sometime before 1808? A search of the archives for a deceased Brit might be fruitful. It's also intriguing to think about a young British artist painting it during his Grand Tour. Perhaps he went on to be famous in England?
Love this show and all your previous one.
39:10 It's never said that the painting does appear in the archives of Florence. An example is given, but we're told it would take years to conduct such a search. 4:37 The red seal appears on a bracing board of the frame, not on the canvas itself. Perhaps a re-used bit of wood or frame (honest explanation) or an attempt at forgery?
It never said it was in Florence archived. They didn’t search it. But I wish they discussed more on possibility of forging the stamp. Is that something common or easy to do, and compare the stamps’s fonts with other genuine stamps.
The.supposedly forged stamp does not make sense. One would expect Venetian, not Florentine stamp. Another thing: isn't it weird that Christies' sell forgeries and that the National Gallery exhibited it as Marieschi?
Try Googling "Christies" and "forgery". You may find the results interesting.
It is weird! Also found it strange that the (brother)Jacomo Marieschi name was quickly brushed aside as a mistake! Rather a big mistake to make imo.
La Salute was designed and built by Baldassare Longhena not Scamozzi.
The "MURKINESS" surrounding Nick's painting has more to do with his great grandfather passing it off as a De Guardi for financial gains than the painters. Sorry Nick, that's how I see it.
Me too. The whole thing was a web of lies. 'We bought it in Venice in 1880 - ish' Oops, sorry, I forgot, I bought it in a London auction in 1907. As by one painter. Then when I had to fill in the slip for the back I accidentally wrote the name of a much more valuable one by mistake! What a silly old duffer I am!' The ironic thing is he was conned himself!
@@hogwashmcturnip8930 EXACTLY.
All those bankers have dollar 💵 signs on canvases, not art! It gives them cachet statuses in society.
We only know it's a family story. We don't know who in the family originated it or when it was originated. It may be a deduction by one of Sir Meyer Spielman's descendants: "Mother and Father were in Venice in the 1880s, so that's where they must have bought it."
Nick Hopkinson looks like a handsome Charleton Heston double (the epic film The Ted Commandments). Now that would be a more interesting topic of discussion than the hopelessly third rate Venetian scene being studied here.
Exciting like a thriller 😃👍
So the good news is, the painting wont need to be sold and can remain in the family. And one can enjoy it as one had enjoyed it before
Why Bellotto never appeared as a suspect?
I would never get to see this show if it wasn't on you tube, thank you so much from someone who watches very little television because most of it is not fit for human consumption.
it is a lovely painting and not the result 'hoped for' but they still get it far back with quite a story and an interesting story thats not a 100% figured out but almost more intriguing because its more mysterious
A good one again. Thanks so much.
These programs are so addictive! Thank you!
I am the proud owner of a chinese copy of a Canaletto...
🤣
Nothing like country hopping. It gets tiring after a while.
Hi Philip I like your scarf but most of all the presentation the investigative nature of the painting featured.
Too bad crappy computers are ruining everything.
Maybe, he had students doing the unsigned examples
The owner of the painting took the news extremely well.
Admit it: your heart skips a beat when you hear that woman say "At 42 million..." in her distinctive accent. 😁
followed by the man with the twist of the nose....😀
This series has become my new favourite mystery series. It helps that I have stood on the sidewalk across from this site and so remember it well! A thing of Beauty often has no price!
Its a shame that, had it not been for desire to sell it, the painting would have been viewed as a priceless masterpiece for many more generations in Nick's family.
Now it's looked at as an attractive copy/forgery, and Nick sees his grandfather with new and more cynical eyes. Sometimes things are better left untouched.
Curiosity Killed The Cat.....
Not necessarily, the story could have been Major Gubbins', and the Grandfather paid top dollar, so he believed it.
@Songbirdstress The grandfather told the family that he bought the painting while touring Venice. He lied.
Do you believe fiction and misinformation are more important than the truth?
@@AFAskygoddess We don't know that; we only know it was a family story. We don't know how it originated or who originated it.
Is this work a reference to the first Renaissance piece to use perspective by Fillipo Brunelleschi?
Because I remember reading about it in art history class, and finding out it was lost media. Honestly, it's a shame to find out, but at least the concepts were preserved by others
I was disappointed for Nick, a very likable fellow.
With his strong facial bone structure he looks like a relative of Fiona.
What a shame it’s not the picture he thought he grew up with. I know how it feels in a way growing all my life believing in certain family history only to have it proven to be different.
I found out as an adult that the old records that I listened to as a child were not my Dad's. They were my mom's. I had believed that the only thing I had in common with him was our love of Motown. He actually loved classical music, which I love now!
@@SuzySylvania I grew up believing I had 2 other siblings when in fact I had 3 siblings. That was a real shock to everyone
I love your fake or fortune videos. How l wish there were more! But it seems the series stopped a while ago. Or has it???
**SPOILERS** Man, this was a nail-biting one. When was it painted then, if the seal was fake? After 1810, long after? Or could the seal have been affixed at a time when the court it represented was still in existence?
SPOILER ALERT!
An anonymous forger working in London before 1808 clearly did this work that’s still quite handsome. So Nick didn’t lose out too much-the thing is still worth 20,000 pounds. I wish they had carbon-dated the wax on the Florence seal. Then we would’ve found if it was English wax or Tuscan wax that was used, as well as the year it was produced.
The Italian seal is confirmation of it being SOLD in Italy as part of a property sale as the expert told them. It's very likely the British painter found a way of selling the painting in Italy to an unsuspecting buyer initially.
Very Instructive, Bravo !
At 41:23. Now time to carbon-date the wax of the Florence seal for traces of carbon-14. That’ll give you a nice, precise year in which the wax was produced, so a ballpark figure of when the painting was sold in the Florentine auction. It could go back further than 1808.
It was so thoughtful for all of these historic painters to create jobs for art lovers in the 21st century. 😅
One loose end IMO. The speculation is the seal is a fake. Are there not examples of what real seals look like? Also, over more than 200 years did the seals stay the same? If they changed, that would narrow down the date it went through the court, if it did. I am also surprised they did no see the Christies stock number on the frame at the very beginning.
At some point it's getting ridiculous. Like did they get Nick to Florence and only then were like oh yeah u know why we're here. Bet u didn't 🤦 it's kinda bad for the environment just flying here and there. You know they have archivists and curators in Italy whom you could have called🤦 also Firenze means Florence. Good u told me. I thought it meant Miami.
Guardi would never inject a dominating symetry, nor would he allow the rigorous horizontal theme in the sky. Marieschi? Maybe, but when noticing chimneys dutifully arranged to the right, and on the left ... a starkly boring set, with cloned figues, some without shadows? No. It appears to be fake, because the Basillica is poorly illuminated, belabored, and gloomy.
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Very interesting painting, history and the research in this documentary. Thank you for sharing
At 27:37. Oh, dear. Great-grandpapa was a filthy liar and manipulator of the truth. Quelle horreur! This poor man needs to have less idealistic notions of his ancestors, especially since they were bankers. For a magazine publisher he seems quite naive…
I guess it happens in all families that two stories get mixed up to appear as one 🤔😊💐
Upon further examination of this episode, I believe this painting should be attributed to Marieschi because of the following features : identical canvas size , identical vanishing point , identical angle pov , identical placement of figures in foreground, identical sizing of buildings . Look at the side by side screen shot @23:27. They are identical except for color and figure placement . Marieschi could have had apprentices do some work creating slight variations in iteration .
Baldassarre Longhena, not Vincenzo Scamozzi.
How could so-called experts make such an obvious and fundamental mistake?
I was just watching a documentary about Turner, he started off as a painter of architecture and travelled to Europe, I think it was said that he worked copying paintings for awhile, in England.
Who on earth would have had the talent to paint this in England at that time?
This show is pretty rubbish really. I want to know who could have painted it and did forgers really use wax seals from the Florentine authority? Where does the wood come from, what species is it?
Such a truly enjoyable mystery. Love these FAKE OR FORTUNE videos. Luv em.
It was pretty clear from the beginning, I think, that the painting wasn't particularly well executed. Scale and depth were quite poor and the church especially was too small and lop sided. I imagine Philip at least knew they weren't dealing with anything very remarkable from the outset.
Subjectivity… is the element and the gift all of us possess when marvelling at a canvas…be it from 1000 years ago or sitting on top of a rubbish bin…
I'm hook, watched it once and now I can't stop. I don't know what it is about it that captivate me so much.
J'imagine que c'est sain, intelligent, captivant, intriguant et up lifting.
It'd be nice, from time to time, y'all might show a "fortune" find...was much too invested in this journey.
I absolutely love this show! I am hooked on it like a fine piece of art hanging on a wall. I binge watch this show.
Even though it wasn’t an actual forgery England should be immediately attacked by international naval forces.
I love how the x-ray gun actually looks like a x-ray gun. No need saying that I want one. Fabolous Show btw.!
I agree with many others that Mr Hopkins was in several ways relieved by the result and that it throws light on his family as well as the painting - by Major Gubbins? What a terrific piece of investigation by our two principal sleuths as well as the technical wizards and what a valuable piece of provenience to go with the picture. He should stick a
Vintage Cannelloni label on the frame.
Commercial every 4 minutes? Great show, nice channel. But taking my eyeballs elsewhere.
My question is how would one get a stamp from Florence in order to put it on the back. Begs for more investigative information.
Those are people relly mainly on their Reputation thats why its so hard for them to revert a verdict they already made ... Sad part in Art is it was controled by so called experts whos Ego are tooooooo high 😊
Personally, I can't stand Venetian vedutisti but the episode is very likeable.
The stamp was not 'made in Florence'.... they totally destroyed any value that painting had.