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What I love is how complex the storyline is. It's far from a straightforward "we're all christian so let's join together to stop this horde." It plays on those feuding ambitions of rival states. Who for some see the mongol invaision as an opportunity. TRULY CONVINCING.
This isn't what would happen. Christendom came together to fight back against Islamic hordes ; a direct attack on Europe would be met with a total unification and utter destruction of any invading Mongols
@@jonbaxter2254 Beyond the collapse in unity, I really liked how this series made a point of not giving major figures plot armor. Both sides lost several esteemed leaders by now, and a lot of the time it boiled down to one big factor: cunning as they were, everyone makes mistakes. Sooner or later they will miscalculate, especially if they're pushing themselves to seek decisive conflicts.
Thank you for all of your lovely comments, coming up with the story of this series and seeing it come to life has been one of the highlights of my life!
This has to be the most realistic episode because of how ludacris and yet, believable it all is. Very typical of the europeans in this time period to go back to bickering and fighting with each other at the moment the pope himself is out of the picture. I appreciate that you took some time away from the events which directly involve the mongols to focus on the other lesser known but equally important effects their invasion has caused. Just a curious:how many more epidodes will this series have? As I remember, the last video said this would be the final episode in the series. I'm not trying to rush you but just curious
@@hiraynfonseka9472 This was not unique to the Europeans. The Islamic world at this time was also fragmented, even moreso because the Mongol invasions were a much more persistent threat than this hypothetical scenario for Europe. China too fell only after several grueling decaders because the Mongols played on the divisions between the warring kingdoms. And of course, the Mongols themselves eventually fragmented once they got too big for a single ruler to effectively watch everything.
@@perrytran9504 yeah I get that but if you compare how fragmented europe was compared to the islamic world, it's like comparing a cracked mirror to a pile of broken glass. Eventually the islamic world(sort of) united under the mamluks and fought back, compare this to europe during the ottoman invasions: there were crusades but they mostly fell apart due to infighting and the various european powers arguing on how they will divide the spoils before they even win the battle. When they eventually fought as one cohesive force, did they win(battle of lepanto, siege of malta etc.) but after many defeats and losses of land to the ottomans. Speaking of which, i remember george asking some questions regarding the mongol sack of Rome and one that piqued my interest was:how will the islamic world react to this? Because the other questions were answered(whether the sack of rome will spawn many heretical groups) which leaves this final question to what can possibly be a scenario where the mongols use their diplomatic ties to spread word of the fall of rome and the papacy to the islamic world. They will probably use the abbasid caliph as a mouthpiece to call for a jihad amongst muslims against europe, alongside the mongols. Again, this might be too far fetched for most people but sometimes reality is stranger than fiction.
What's gonna happen to berke khan In this series? Will he retreat permanently or return with a greater force of Cumans, Rus and Poles. I know that you take a lot of inspiration from other steppe forces like the Magyars. So let the Mongols regroup and invade witch tactics as the Magyars did ie plunder Central and Western European and like the Magyars used leather water bags to cross the rivers and raid Europe
there is no words to describe the beauty of this anymore, this is just magnificent, to create a whole new history with everything anyone could imagine, the characters, the plots, the complicated diplomatic relations of medieval Europe with its shifting and changing interests all the time and how every small detail early in the story is contributing to the massive events later on, keep going please even after the end of this series, we need more of this alternate universes.
The level of effort put into this makes it one of the rare alternate histories that feels immersive. So many alt host writers write with an end in mind, instead of exploring the butterflies for their own sake
I love this series! When it was first announced I wasn’t overly interested, but once it started I’ve been waiting eagerly for every part! I can’t wait to see how it ends!
Really appreciate the acknowledgement of how loved Fredrick was in Sicily despite how hated he was basically the everywhere else Even in modern Sicily he’s still fondly remembered as Federico ll My only note with the scenario is how fast things are going, like after their defeats in Italy the Mongols probably would’ve just decided to halt further offensive campaigns with the possible exception of Hungary, and go home while fortifying their holds in east and Central Europe The conquest of China took almost a century after all. Tho this does make it more interesting and “40 years later.” Would kinda kill the pacing so I’m glad your doing it the way you are.
the mongols would most likely not go home with the death of Subutai, Kadan & a mongol Prince / what most likely would happen is that the Great khan Would Sent another massive Army group Under Hulagu Khan (which in reality was sent to the Middle east despite their conquest of China) To Europe to reinforce Batu & Avenge those 3 / considering how much Batu's army group already achieved, it stands to Reason that an additional Massive mongol army under hulagu will be a massive problem for western Europe, especially now considering that Batu & his commanders Baiju, shiban & Berke now know the Terrain, people & counter tactics of the Europeans & can addapt accordingly
This mongol series is awssome. It absolutely thrilling to know whatif the all christians fight together and drive this mongol horde. Absolutely stunning to think. It will be awesome if they beat mongols. This storyline is one of my fav storylines ever. We always appreciate your hard work and dedication towards these videos. Love from your dedicated fan from Sri Lanka ❤️🇱🇰🤝🏴.
Love the series although the sea battle scenario was quite far fetched considering no one noticed a number of galleys flanking them near the shores. It just feels like a plot armor for Charles.
Easily the best series that this channel has produced to date! I’m absolutely loving the intrigue and politicking as much as I do the battles. Well done!
A very good part. The battle of the Sicilian straits is a mix of the battle of Ecluse (1340) and of the battle of Cannae or Zama (216 BC and 202 BC), the first because of the tied ships and the second and third because of the flanking and rear attack. Finally, the death of Frederick II seems to be inspired from Mithridatus IV's death (or even Nero's death, which is a bit ironic since Nero has been nicknamed Antichrist by some Christian chroniclers). I am very intrigued how this alternate history will end, even if I am very impressed of the choices that have been done in many places and how consistent the tale has been written. Good continuation !
This is the most thought-provoking, in-depth and entertaining video series I've come across. Alternative history alone is cool to talk about, but this takes it to a stratospheric level. I can't even begin to tell you how much I enjoyed your efforts in making these storylines. Huge applause to all involved. I will be telling/sharing to as many people as I know about this series. Thank you again and please, please continue making more (quick suggestion: 'What if Alexander the Great had lived on' or 'What if Alexander's army had not stopped at the Hydaspes'). All the best!👏
this is one of best channels ever existed out there. To challenge the existance of possible alternative history and also to put it in images, that is ultimate EPIC !!!
Another great episode, French dynastic struggles have always been fascinating and this looks set to leave a very lasting mark on the minds of the French about this reality and its relations with England. Although many comment on interesting scenarios for future alternate stories, seeing how all the power dynamics were used in this series, a next scenario that would be great to explore would be the Italian wars, many stay with Francis I and Charles V, but there are so many dynamics of power in those conflicts that would be interesting to explore with different results, the two most interesting would be a capture of Milan in 1495 or that the Dauphin Charles Orland did not die of measles, but his father continued to die in 1498, but with the succession assured , the succession dispute could bring a new mad war, those two scenarios would drastically change the dynamics of future wars, alliances and royal unions that can give a slightly different Europe.
This video was great, but this comment is even greater. Always wanted to see alt history of the 16th century, something like where François I became the Emperor or won the battle of Pavia.
Just wow. The writer(s)? for this series need to do more alt history. So much detail and very credible. After something like the fourth crusade, the investiture controversy, and the Albigensian crusades the mongol invasions deeper into Europe would very likely expose those existing rifts between factions than serve as a unifying force. Thanks again K&G for this series!
just wanted to say that i absolutely loved the Norwegians sudden appearance at Lubeck and i hope we get to see at least a little bit about what's happening up there in the north as this unfolds, Norway, Denmark and Sweden should still be potential players in the Baltic ocean after all
This series is incredible. The fratricide makes this as Shakespearean in scope as Richard III. Charles of Anjou proves just as ambitious and unscrupulous as he was in our timeline. And the conflict proves a complex and tragic end for the complex figure of "the Anti-Christ", or as we called him, "Stupor Mundi". I'm really hoping and praying - that if the brilliant but villainous Charles becomes as much of a powerhouse as he did in our history - that he meets his ultimate nemesis in the form of a certain brilliant Greek Emperor who should be making his entrance soon. Would love to see the Niceans make an impact.
But Genoa and Nicea are allies so wouldn't Charles ally with them he needs the Genoese on his side after all. And Nicea would be a valuable ally to attack the Venetians since they wish to retake Constantinople.
Couldn't Charles have at least pretended like he killed his brother in a hunting accident? This ruthless fratricide should cost him a lot of support around Christendom, since kinslaying was very frowned upon. But if Margaret has the support of England as regent of France, I presume they will have a big part to play in the upcoming French civil war.
I highly doubt that southern Italy will fall due to the heavy fortifications. Also he might of defeated Fredrick but he might lose to his successor wether it be a sibling, child, partner, or vassal. Not to mention he only won a naval battle not a land battle, this did give Charles legitimacy but it also caused much of his navy to take heavy losses while it's already low on supply this will force him to resupply.
@@sidp5381 Frederick's illegitimate son is still alive so I doubt this throne-grading succession is over especially with southern Italy being secular and having a Muslim and Jewish community there.
With the death of Subutai and Orda, I would be surprised if Mongol didn't relaunch a full scale invasion of vengeance again. Imagine Hulagu's army also joins force with Batu.
@@nebsam715 thank you yes my first couple ideas were what if Napoleon invaded england whitch would be interesting but then I realised the stakes would be much higher if he won the battle of Leipzig instead.
@@blecao It was but I am not talking about the terribleness of it but rather the amount of troops that were tied down in Spain that could have been used better else where.
To the writer of this incredible series: I have been a avid fan of your work and have enjoyed this series so far. i hope the finale would be just as good and logical.. Please consider doing the following alternate history videos; 1. What if Napoleon didn't lose at waterloo, 2. What if Sultan Suleiman the magnificent/ Kara Mustafa Pasha won the siege of Vienna, 3. What if Mughal emperor Aurangzeb Alamgir returned to his capital after conquering Golconda 1687, 4. what if the koprulu family usurped the ottoman dynasty, 5. what if the Maratha empire didn't lose the 3rd battle of Panipat and the commander of this battle Sadashiv rao bhau became the next peshwa, 6.What if the Shinde/holkar dynasty usurped the martha empire from the bhatt peshwa dynasty, 7. what if india still remained a monarchy after the ousting of British.
This was excellent but I would like if we could get an episode on Norway and Haakon IV. They pretty much came out of nowhere, destroyed a third of the Mongol army, killed Subutai, and then just disappeared for two episodes. Are they hunting down Mongols in northern Germany? Encouraging rebellion in Poland or Lithuania? Invading Novgorod? Using his newly won fame and admiration to create an early Kalmar Union? Don't even need a full episode just an update and some fun
Georgie stated that the only reason why the norse fought off the mongols in lubeck was because they knew that the danish heartland would be next so it was less of "lets fight together!" and more of "if we don't defend them now, it will be us next" so they momentarily united before going back to scandinavia to do their usual meddling
the Norse are food for the mongols on open terrain & land battles So I doubt they'd pursue them further south / Their success against Subutai was more due to a surprise attack with ships from rivers against a mongol army that had already been dug for a siege
I’ve always loved alternative history stories. Harry Turtledove was one of my favorite authors growing up. This series has gone a long way to rekindling that passion.
I like how Charles planned from the start that the battle for Sicily would be decided at sea. He attacked Pisa to ensure Frederick would not receive any naval reinforcements. I confess, I was worried for Charles when he landed on Sicily and realized he couldn't actually take any of its castles.
You know thanks to this video, I now know why Innocent IV kept excommunicating Frederick II. For those who don’t know, Frederick II had actually kicked out the Genoan Trading Monopoly in Sicily as it was apparently strangling the kingdom’s treasury and economy - same problem the Byzantine Empire was facing with both Venice and Genoa. And it makes sense that Genoa would be on the fence about this as they were making money off of the fall of these economies. So they more than likely waited until the time was right to put their Papal candidate on the seat - which was Innocent IV - so they could get back at Frederick II.
It makes sense that Queen Regent Margaret would seek the backing of England. Not only are England's forces intact throughout the Mongol invasion, but England itself is rather secure against the Mongols should they return.
Maybe that might happen if the Great khan decides to Sent another massive Army group Under Hulagu Khan (which in reality was sent to the Middle east) To Europe to reinforce Batu & Avenge the deaths of Subutai, Kadan & that Mongol prince / considering how much Batu's army group already achieved, it stands to Reason that an additional Massive mongol army under hulagu will be a considerable problem for western Europe, especially now that Batu & his commanders Baiju, shiban & Berke know the Terrain, people & counter tactics of the Europeans & can adapt accordingly
I imagine a scenario where the indigenous people from Mesoamerica and South America domesticated many animals instead of killing them, and Brazil, Argentina and Mexico are as populous as India or China.
Best alternative history ever, like you don't just cover the topic at had what if Mongols invade Western Europe but all the fallout from such an event like who would have thought an invasion of Germany would lead to a French civil war.
Are there any examples of large scale navel actions during the Medival Period by Western kingdoms? I think the author assumes too much of the West. I also think the series faltered earlier when the author had already decided the Mongols were going to lose and then crafted a narrative to fit that decision. It's doubtful any Western force in the mid 13th Century could have bested the Horde in the open field.
@@ikengaspirit3063 Hello, I made no mention of Subatai in my original post. Even so, when a person dies isn't so much the issue as the how. The author has Subatai dying in a bizarre seige of Lubeck that doesn't mesh with standard Mongol tactics or anything we know about the method of war Subatai practiced all through his long career. The same could be said of the general tactical and stragetic thrust of the invasion narrative. The author has a penchant to force Mongol tactical decisions into a Western European model, so as to bring about a Western victory at a given locale. There is nothing about the early Mongol leadership that indicates any need to conform to their enemies posture. Quite the contrary, the early expansion phase of the Horde saw them often pivot and adjust, and never simply accept a set piece battle offer, simply because. The same pattern of war that saw success all through the early phases of expansion is a better guide to how a would be invasion of Europe would have occured. This would include theater wide large scale flanking actions, feigned retreats, and the Mongol version of a coup de main all of which could be taken over even hundreds of kilometers. The Mongols were not bound by a particular timeframe or site that must be taken. Further, the common Mongol use of economic devestation would and could have been used. The West didn't have the speed, manuver or tactical wherewithal to match any of these approaches to war. In simple terms, while the subject is interesting, the narrative is forced. It assumes too much on the part of the West, and far too little on behalf of the Horde.
@@brianthomassen2209 Okay, good criticism but I think this series is good enough to make the base of a better make by someone else later on. However, the Mongols in this telling do have a time constraint.
@@ikengaspirit3063 Hello again, The author accepts the 1242 expedition in force as happened and the return to the Steppe as preplanned. He presents his alternate invasion occuring in 1245. This already indicates the author assumed the Mongols adopted a longer view on the conquest. I don't recall the author ever mentioning a time constraint that would force the invasion forces to adopt a particular X, Y or Z method or tactical posture. If there is one in his version, what could it be that would be compelling? I think my earlier criticism stands and it undercuts the entirety of the narrative. The naval battle between Imperial and French forces in this episode is one illustration of a false sophistication the author assumes. There are zero examples of Western forces having any large scale naval battles, or adopting the naval manuver that were used in the Classical Age. The only large ship on ship navel actions occuring during the Early and High Middle Ages were various Vikings v. Viking sea battles and those are of a different stripe than this project. The mode of war for the West during the 13th Century was dominated by positional warfare: assuming a strong point and win/lose from seige actions. Field battles were the exception not the rule. The author having Frederick II opt for a naval action makes no sense, particularly when the author stresses how strong the Scilian fortifications were. He makes the Frederick II stupid when there was no rationale to assume a direct confrontation, and at sea to boot! It's odd.
@@brianthomassen2209 You know, you're right. I must have projected from a criticism of Mongol retreat ideas that one of their sources of their mongol timeline stuff on their other channel made. So to be more elaborate, the main timeline constraint would be that Europe would be part of Jochi's inheritance and thus the golden horde not part of Batu's territory and alot of the soldiers would also not be Jochid so have no territorial inheritance in Europe. As such Batu and alot of his forces will want to be getting back to their inheritance. But as I said before I agree with ur criticism. Edit: Made a mistake, not Batu himself as he was Jochid but definately a huge chunk of the army wasn't jochid like Subatai's inheritance was back in the East.
Well you can't expect Frederick II to go out in any way other than fighting all of Christendom by himself because he can, can you? He'd probably at least have died knowing that he brought his mortal enemy -the papacy- down with him.
I could see an HBO miniseries where you dont relaize its alernative history until midway through, theres so much going on...probably my favorite series yinz ever put out
@declanjones8888 I don't know if maybe the writer/animator left or something. I don't count on seeing the end of it. Shame this is one of the scenarios I've wanted to see forever and this was so well done.
So the Mongols invasion of Europe ultimately lead to the French Civil War? That is quite interesting! I was originally expected this to happen in Aragon because of how many sons King James had. But this is surely something and I like it! But that means that the Marinid Sultanate or the Emirate of Granada won't be able to expand their realms with the aim of reconquering al-Andalus. And with the Sack of Constantinople never happened in this timeline, I guess this means that the Ottoman Empire will not be able to take Constantinople, right? And if that is the case, will the recently-reborned Roman Republic embarked on the campaign to reconquer Anatolia from the Turkic tribes and the Syrian coasts from the Crusaders? If that happened, it means that the Roman Republic will be facing enemies on two fronts and they are the Mongols of Iranzamin and the Mamluks of Egypt. But due to what Batu Khan did to Rome, I guess the Roman Republic is willing to sign a truce and form an alliance with the Mamluks in the conflict against the Mongols. As a result, the Middle East will once again become the domain of power plays that decided the fate of the international community because while the Romans and the Mamluks are allies, they definitely do not wanted one another to become too powerful for sure and they definitely do not wanted to defeat the Mongols outright but simply keeping them away from their territories. The most common scenarios I can see happening regularly here are that the Roman Republic try to retake Mesopotamia but the Mamluks secretly sabotaged the Romans from total victory by giving secret messages with tips to the Ilkhan of Iranzamin about the Romans military expedition to make sure that the Romans will never gained Mesopotamia back like in ancient times. But eventually, the last Ilkhan of Iranzamin, Abu Sa'id Bahadur Khan, died without a male heir. And this led to the civil war within Iranzamin, which is definitely something that the Roman Republic and the Mamluk Sultanate will take advantage of by supporting rival factions for the claim on the throne. One side will support the late Ilkhan's only daughter while the other will support the Ilkhan's distant relative such as Arpu Ke'un. And as the Republic and the Sultanate are engaged in a proxy war against each other, Timur rose to power in the east and once he unified all lands in Central Asia under his banner, he will turned his attention to Iran later on. Upon hearing about Timur and his army are marching westward, the Roman Republic might called a halt for the proxy war and attempt to negotiate with the Mamluk Sultanate in order to prevent the scenario that led to the rise of the Rashidun Caliphate back then. Knowing the danger Timur posed, the Mamluk Sultan most likely will agreed and decide to cease the proxy war for the time being. But when Timur asked for the hands of Abu Sa'id Bahadur Khan's daughter in marriage, such proposal is most likely rejected And timur will resorted to bringing destruction to Damascus in order to display how serious he is about this. Feared by what he did to Damascus, the faction that the late Ilkhan's daughter is staying with will be forced to bring her to Timur. Once marrying her, Timur will now have two princesses of Chinggis Khan's lineage as his wives and the side that was supporting her will have peaceful relations with Timur's realm in exchange. And if that faction happened to be Roman Republic based in Venice, it means more prosperity in trade due to the safety of the Silk Road promoted by Emir Timir. But when Timur's domain began to fracture, the trade routes on land will begin to decline and the Mamluk Sultanate will become more prosperous instead due to the Maritime Silk Road has become a choice of the merchants to use. And as a result, another war between the Republic and the Sultanate will break out in an attempt to retake Egypt back into the Republic's domain. I know that this is more focusing on the Middle East now but that is because the Middle East is very important during such a time because of the trade routes that went through it.
@@mirzubair8291 I know that. But in this timeline, the Republic of Venice restored and reorganized into the Roman Republic and annexed Constantiople. Did you see the video?
I think Mongols will lay down and let the Crusaders kill one another while they destroy King Bella and are done with Hungary. Plus Fredrick's illegitimate son is still alive. I can sense a lot of blood will spill.
As He was in real life, he had the 16 year old Conradin of Swabia and Sicily beheaded in Naples and then refused to have his body buried in a Christian graveyard, meaning that Conradin would not be able to go to heaven. He also called for the extermination of the House of Hohenstaufen (Conradin was the last of them), almost all of the other house member were imprisoned by him and either starved to death, executed or died in imprisonment. He was a very villainous person, even in our timeline.
What is up with this timeline and destroying Italian Landmarks? The Mongols destroyed St. Peter's, the tomb of Hadrian and the Pantheon, and the crusaders annihilated Pisa!
very good episode but I have to admit that I didn't expect to see Aragon taking over French cities, but with the "antichrist" dead, what will become of Italy?
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Love You guys! Do a Henry V survives series next!😊😊😊❤❤❤❤
Please do a series about "What if the Western Roman Empire never fell" series.
what if the black death never happened?
This is such a great series
May I ask About what if Mexico won Mexican America war
What I love is how complex the storyline is. It's far from a straightforward "we're all christian so let's join together to stop this horde." It plays on those feuding ambitions of rival states. Who for some see the mongol invaision as an opportunity. TRULY CONVINCING.
This isn't what would happen. Christendom came together to fight back against Islamic hordes ; a direct attack on Europe would be met with a total unification and utter destruction of any invading Mongols
When the damned Ottomans advance, the Christians will fight each other
"We're all christian so let's join together to stop this horde" is what the pope wanted.
"I want the spoils!" "No me!" is what the pope got.
These feels like how actual history would go down.
@@jonbaxter2254 Beyond the collapse in unity, I really liked how this series made a point of not giving major figures plot armor. Both sides lost several esteemed leaders by now, and a lot of the time it boiled down to one big factor: cunning as they were, everyone makes mistakes. Sooner or later they will miscalculate, especially if they're pushing themselves to seek decisive conflicts.
Thank you for all of your lovely comments, coming up with the story of this series and seeing it come to life has been one of the highlights of my life!
This has to be the most realistic episode because of how ludacris and yet, believable it all is. Very typical of the europeans in this time period to go back to bickering and fighting with each other at the moment the pope himself is out of the picture. I appreciate that you took some time away from the events which directly involve the mongols to focus on the other lesser known but equally important effects their invasion has caused.
Just a curious:how many more epidodes will this series have? As I remember, the last video said this would be the final episode in the series. I'm not trying to rush you but just curious
You have an amazing mind.
@@hiraynfonseka9472 This was not unique to the Europeans. The Islamic world at this time was also fragmented, even moreso because the Mongol invasions were a much more persistent threat than this hypothetical scenario for Europe. China too fell only after several grueling decaders because the Mongols played on the divisions between the warring kingdoms. And of course, the Mongols themselves eventually fragmented once they got too big for a single ruler to effectively watch everything.
@@perrytran9504 yeah I get that but if you compare how fragmented europe was compared to the islamic world, it's like comparing a cracked mirror to a pile of broken glass. Eventually the islamic world(sort of) united under the mamluks and fought back, compare this to europe during the ottoman invasions: there were crusades but they mostly fell apart due to infighting and the various european powers arguing on how they will divide the spoils before they even win the battle. When they eventually fought as one cohesive force, did they win(battle of lepanto, siege of malta etc.) but after many defeats and losses of land to the ottomans.
Speaking of which, i remember george asking some questions regarding the mongol sack of Rome and one that piqued my interest was:how will the islamic world react to this? Because the other questions were answered(whether the sack of rome will spawn many heretical groups) which leaves this final question to what can possibly be a scenario where the mongols use their diplomatic ties to spread word of the fall of rome and the papacy to the islamic world. They will probably use the abbasid caliph as a mouthpiece to call for a jihad amongst muslims against europe, alongside the mongols. Again, this might be too far fetched for most people but sometimes reality is stranger than fiction.
What's gonna happen to berke khan In this series?
Will he retreat permanently or return with a greater force of Cumans, Rus and Poles. I know that you take a lot of inspiration from other steppe forces like the Magyars. So let the Mongols regroup and invade witch tactics as the Magyars did ie plunder Central and Western European and like the Magyars used leather water bags to cross the rivers and raid Europe
there is no words to describe the beauty of this anymore, this is just magnificent, to create a whole new history with everything anyone could imagine, the characters, the plots, the complicated diplomatic relations of medieval Europe with its shifting and changing interests all the time and how every small detail early in the story is contributing to the massive events later on, keep going please even after the end of this series, we need more of this alternate universes.
this is not another history, this is randomly generated bogus
@@2009hardyswell you are a randomly generated person who got randomly assigned the worst perks for having fun
I cannot express enough gratitude for your efforts of researching alternate history. This is too beautiful and epic to be fictional.
The level of effort put into this makes it one of the rare alternate histories that feels immersive. So many alt host writers write with an end in mind, instead of exploring the butterflies for their own sake
I would read this book.
@@jonbaxter2254HBO miniseries like BoB or Pacific?
All the data need to be gather while tjey appear, else much of iy would get lost. gret job there
This is one of my favorite alt-history series, it does a great job of balancing accuracy with entertaining storytelling
Please continue this series!! 🙏🙏
I love this series! When it was first announced I wasn’t overly interested, but once it started I’ve been waiting eagerly for every part! I can’t wait to see how it ends!
please continue with this, it's perfect
I've checked and there are no new videos in this series!? I need historical closure!!! XD
Really appreciate the acknowledgement of how loved Fredrick was in Sicily despite how hated he was basically the everywhere else
Even in modern Sicily he’s still fondly remembered as Federico ll
My only note with the scenario is how fast things are going, like after their defeats in Italy the Mongols probably would’ve just decided to halt further offensive campaigns with the possible exception of Hungary, and go home while fortifying their holds in east and Central Europe
The conquest of China took almost a century after all.
Tho this does make it more interesting and “40 years later.” Would kinda kill the pacing so I’m glad your doing it the way you are.
Indeed, Federico di Svevia. What a champ. And Charles of Anjou that stinking rat ended his line….
the mongols would most likely not go home with the death of Subutai, Kadan & a mongol Prince / what most likely would happen is that the Great khan Would Sent another massive Army group Under Hulagu Khan (which in reality was sent to the Middle east despite their conquest of China) To Europe to reinforce Batu & Avenge those 3 / considering how much Batu's army group already achieved, it stands to Reason that an additional Massive mongol army under hulagu will be a massive problem for western Europe, especially now considering that Batu & his commanders Baiju, shiban & Berke now know the Terrain, people & counter tactics of the Europeans & can addapt accordingly
This mongol series is awssome. It absolutely thrilling to know whatif the all christians fight together and drive this mongol horde. Absolutely stunning to think. It will be awesome if they beat mongols. This storyline is one of my fav storylines ever. We always appreciate your hard work and dedication towards these videos. Love from your dedicated fan from Sri Lanka ❤️🇱🇰🤝🏴.
Fantastically written. Was really rooting for Fredrick given his efforts to transform Sicily. Looking forward to the next episode.
I expected him to give up with the Empire and convert to Islam in order to secure allies from the south
when will we be able to watch the next episode??? we need it!!!
This series has been so much fun, I really enjoy alternate history stories. Please keep up the great work
Love the series although the sea battle scenario was quite far fetched considering no one noticed a number of galleys flanking them near the shores. It just feels like a plot armor for Charles.
charles did seem really overpowered honestly
Easily the best series that this channel has produced to date! I’m absolutely loving the intrigue and politicking as much as I do the battles. Well done!
A very good part.
The battle of the Sicilian straits is a mix of the battle of Ecluse (1340) and of the battle of Cannae or Zama (216 BC and 202 BC), the first because of the tied ships and the second and third because of the flanking and rear attack. Finally, the death of Frederick II seems to be inspired from Mithridatus IV's death (or even Nero's death, which is a bit ironic since Nero has been nicknamed Antichrist by some Christian chroniclers).
I am very intrigued how this alternate history will end, even if I am very impressed of the choices that have been done in many places and how consistent the tale has been written.
Good continuation !
This is the most thought-provoking, in-depth and entertaining video series I've come across. Alternative history alone is cool to talk about, but this takes it to a stratospheric level. I can't even begin to tell you how much I enjoyed your efforts in making these storylines. Huge applause to all involved. I will be telling/sharing to as many people as I know about this series. Thank you again and please, please continue making more (quick suggestion: 'What if Alexander the Great had lived on' or 'What if Alexander's army had not stopped at the Hydaspes'). All the best!👏
Im a patron. Please make more :)
We need more videos on the MONGOL plssss am willing to support the cause 🇯🇲🇯🇲🇯🇲 Jamaica love this channel
this is one of best channels ever existed out there. To challenge the existance of possible alternative history and also to put it in images, that is ultimate EPIC !!!
Another great episode, French dynastic struggles have always been fascinating and this looks set to leave a very lasting mark on the minds of the French about this reality and its relations with England.
Although many comment on interesting scenarios for future alternate stories, seeing how all the power dynamics were used in this series, a next scenario that would be great to explore would be the Italian wars, many stay with Francis I and Charles V, but there are so many dynamics of power in those conflicts that would be interesting to explore with different results, the two most interesting would be a capture of Milan in 1495 or that the Dauphin Charles Orland did not die of measles, but his father continued to die in 1498, but with the succession assured , the succession dispute could bring a new mad war, those two scenarios would drastically change the dynamics of future wars, alliances and royal unions that can give a slightly different Europe.
This video was great, but this comment is even greater. Always wanted to see alt history of the 16th century, something like where François I became the Emperor or won the battle of Pavia.
Just wow. The writer(s)? for this series need to do more alt history. So much detail and very credible. After something like the fourth crusade, the investiture controversy, and the Albigensian crusades the mongol invasions deeper into Europe would very likely expose those existing rifts between factions than serve as a unifying force. Thanks again K&G for this series!
I was a little hesitant to watch this series when it started, but im glad i did, this series has been really well made. Amazing work!
just wanted to say that i absolutely loved the Norwegians sudden appearance at Lubeck and i hope we get to see at least a little bit about what's happening up there in the north as this unfolds, Norway, Denmark and Sweden should still be potential players in the Baltic ocean after all
Why was Frederick II's fate left at that? Describing what happened afterwards would have made this video so much better!
I’m eagerly awaiting the last episode of this series!
"X attack, Europeans fight each other" sounds like the perfect template for any conflict, historical or otherwise.
How I wish a huge budget series or movies were made on this. It would be so much fun for history nuts like us to watch
This series is incredible. The fratricide makes this as Shakespearean in scope as Richard III.
Charles of Anjou proves just as ambitious and unscrupulous as he was in our timeline. And the conflict proves a complex and tragic end for the complex figure of "the Anti-Christ", or as we called him, "Stupor Mundi".
I'm really hoping and praying - that if the brilliant but villainous Charles becomes as much of a powerhouse as he did in our history - that he meets his ultimate nemesis in the form of a certain brilliant Greek Emperor who should be making his entrance soon. Would love to see the Niceans make an impact.
But Genoa and Nicea are allies so wouldn't Charles ally with them he needs the Genoese on his side after all. And Nicea would be a valuable ally to attack the Venetians since they wish to retake Constantinople.
Which Greek Emperor are you referencing?
John III Vatatzes
@@haldemarest Thanks for the info
@@upsilonad2235 Michael was actually the Emperor who defeated Charles.
This remind me of the end times, with everything crumbling and everyone is hyper aggressive.
Couldn't Charles have at least pretended like he killed his brother in a hunting accident? This ruthless fratricide should cost him a lot of support around Christendom, since kinslaying was very frowned upon. But if Margaret has the support of England as regent of France, I presume they will have a big part to play in the upcoming French civil war.
What a time to be alive! We can enjoy this for free!
The thing that doesn't make sense is that Bella was alive in other ep. Mongols usually killed any nobel they saw during a war
LOVED THIS SERIES AND YOU GUYS!😊😊😊😊❤❤❤❤❤
Please don't stop this series!!!!!!!
Just to confirm, is Charles trying to take the French and Sicilian thrones
I get the sense is he’s trying to win glory in battle and the closest way to get that was to fight Frederick in Italy.
I highly doubt that southern Italy will fall due to the heavy fortifications. Also he might of defeated Fredrick but he might lose to his successor wether it be a sibling, child, partner, or vassal. Not to mention he only won a naval battle not a land battle, this did give Charles legitimacy but it also caused much of his navy to take heavy losses while it's already low on supply this will force him to resupply.
That's my take on it as well. But I believe the fratricide will come back to haunt him.
@@somethingelseidk1035 historical figures quite interesting
@@sidp5381 Frederick's illegitimate son is still alive so I doubt this throne-grading succession is over especially with southern Italy being secular and having a Muslim and Jewish community there.
With the death of Subutai and Orda, I would be surprised if Mongol didn't relaunch a full scale invasion of vengeance again. Imagine Hulagu's army also joins force with Batu.
Hey yall this is awesome plz continue this series.
What are your thoughts on a Napoleonic alt history? where would you guys likely begin?
I would absolutely love to see that
@@nebsam715 thank you yes my first couple ideas were what if Napoleon invaded england whitch would be interesting but then I realised the stakes would be much higher if he won the battle of Leipzig instead.
@@jackoboyle7749 yes but invading Spain was what really lost him the war. I wonder how things would have gone had he never done that
@@nebsam715 even as a spanish i think that the invasion of rusia was worse the grand armee died on the summer russian fields
@@blecao It was but I am not talking about the terribleness of it but rather the amount of troops that were tied down in Spain that could have been used better else where.
What a victory for Charles of Anjou! Can't wait for the last episode. Hopefully, we will see the rebirth of the Roman Republic!
Great video, I love this alt-history series.
To the writer of this incredible series:
I have been a avid fan of your work and have enjoyed this series so far. i hope the finale would be just as good and logical..
Please consider doing the following alternate history videos;
1. What if Napoleon didn't lose at waterloo,
2. What if Sultan Suleiman the magnificent/ Kara Mustafa Pasha won the siege of Vienna,
3. What if Mughal emperor Aurangzeb Alamgir returned to his capital after conquering Golconda 1687,
4. what if the koprulu family usurped the ottoman dynasty,
5. what if the Maratha empire didn't lose the 3rd battle of Panipat and the commander of this battle Sadashiv rao bhau became the next peshwa,
6.What if the Shinde/holkar dynasty usurped the martha empire from the bhatt peshwa dynasty,
7. what if india still remained a monarchy after the ousting of British.
Thank you so much for your kind words!
@@georgekolev6247 Is this series going to be continued?
This was excellent but I would like if we could get an episode on Norway and Haakon IV. They pretty much came out of nowhere, destroyed a third of the Mongol army, killed Subutai, and then just disappeared for two episodes. Are they hunting down Mongols in northern Germany? Encouraging rebellion in Poland or Lithuania? Invading Novgorod? Using his newly won fame and admiration to create an early Kalmar Union? Don't even need a full episode just an update and some fun
Georgie stated that the only reason why the norse fought off the mongols in lubeck was because they knew that the danish heartland would be next so it was less of "lets fight together!" and more of "if we don't defend them now, it will be us next" so they momentarily united before going back to scandinavia to do their usual meddling
the Norse are food for the mongols on open terrain & land battles So I doubt they'd pursue them further south / Their success against Subutai was more due to a surprise attack with ships from rivers against a mongol army that had already been dug for a siege
Is the series done?
@@slothniel8881 Not really. There are still plenty of loose plot threads, but they haven't released a new part in almost half year
I’ve always loved alternative history stories. Harry Turtledove was one of my favorite authors growing up. This series has gone a long way to rekindling that passion.
If frederick seized geno ships before from conquered towns, then he defo would have finished the siege to aquire more ships against charles
I like how Charles planned from the start that the battle for Sicily would be decided at sea. He attacked Pisa to ensure Frederick would not receive any naval reinforcements. I confess, I was worried for Charles when he landed on Sicily and realized he couldn't actually take any of its castles.
Looking forward to the next one 😊
That escalated quickly from a Mongol warlord stops drinking.
You know thanks to this video, I now know why Innocent IV kept excommunicating Frederick II.
For those who don’t know, Frederick II had actually kicked out the Genoan Trading Monopoly in Sicily as it was apparently strangling the kingdom’s treasury and economy - same problem the Byzantine Empire was facing with both Venice and Genoa. And it makes sense that Genoa would be on the fence about this as they were making money off of the fall of these economies. So they more than likely waited until the time was right to put their Papal candidate on the seat - which was Innocent IV - so they could get back at Frederick II.
Great video!
When do get the next chapter of this amazing series?
Such a great episode
It makes sense that Queen Regent Margaret would seek the backing of England. Not only are England's forces intact throughout the Mongol invasion, but England itself is rather secure against the Mongols should they return.
I would love to see the mobile Mongol Armies go against the Stationary grounded English armies.
Horse archers vs Longbowmen deployed stakes.
they'll most likely dismount and shoot
Pls make a new episode. And I hope we can see the Eastern Roman risen from their ashes again in this timeline.
Great video great animations
The best series on this channel by far returns once again.
Please make a star wars related video and cover alternative videos like what will happen if prithviraj won the battle of tarain in india
When this series started I was hoping for the day when the Mongols marched to Paris but stopped to stand on the French coast and look out to England.
Maybe that might happen if the Great khan decides to Sent another massive Army group Under Hulagu Khan (which in reality was sent to the Middle east) To Europe to reinforce Batu & Avenge the deaths of Subutai, Kadan & that Mongol prince / considering how much Batu's army group already achieved, it stands to Reason that an additional Massive mongol army under hulagu will be a considerable problem for western Europe, especially now that Batu & his commanders Baiju, shiban & Berke know the Terrain, people & counter tactics of the Europeans & can adapt accordingly
Wow this actually happened😍
I humbly request "Sunset invasion" as follow up series for this channel, that would be so awesome.
Sunset invasion? Thats total nonsense.
@@adamnesicolol whatever you say
@@SirBoggins americans invading europe?
Would had died as soon as an european would had cough over them.
I imagine a scenario where the indigenous people from Mesoamerica and South America domesticated many animals instead of killing them, and Brazil, Argentina and Mexico are as populous as India or China.
@@irmaosmatos4026 As populous? impossible without 🍚
please make alternative history about what if ottomanempire never lost at lepanto?
It would be nice if you covered like the actual history of Hohenstaufen sicily
Best alternative history ever, like you don't just cover the topic at had what if Mongols invade Western Europe but all the fallout from such an event like who would have thought an invasion of Germany would lead to a French civil war.
This series has been nothing short of spectacular, in the line of an alternate-history book from the likes of Turtledove or Harris.
Forget those schmucks. This is something out of Thomas Anderson or Jared Kavanaugh.
8 months...
Are there any examples of large scale navel actions during the Medival Period by Western kingdoms? I think the author assumes too much of the West. I also think the series faltered earlier when the author had already decided the Mongols were going to lose and then crafted a narrative to fit that decision. It's doubtful any Western force in the mid 13th Century could have bested the Horde in the open field.
well, Subatai's death was almost certain given he died about this time in OTL.
@@ikengaspirit3063 Hello, I made no mention of Subatai in my original post. Even so, when a person dies isn't so much the issue as the how. The author has Subatai dying in a bizarre seige of Lubeck that doesn't mesh with standard Mongol tactics or anything we know about the method of war Subatai practiced all through his long career. The same could be said of the general tactical and stragetic thrust of the invasion narrative. The author has a penchant to force Mongol tactical decisions into a Western European model, so as to bring about a Western victory at a given locale. There is nothing about the early Mongol leadership that indicates any need to conform to their enemies posture. Quite the contrary, the early expansion phase of the Horde saw them often pivot and adjust, and never simply accept a set piece battle offer, simply because. The same pattern of war that saw success all through the early phases of expansion is a better guide to how a would be invasion of Europe would have occured. This would include theater wide large scale flanking actions, feigned retreats, and the Mongol version of a coup de main all of which could be taken over even hundreds of kilometers. The Mongols were not bound by a particular timeframe or site that must be taken. Further, the common Mongol use of economic devestation would and could have been used. The West didn't have the speed, manuver or tactical wherewithal to match any of these approaches to war. In simple terms, while the subject is interesting, the narrative is forced. It assumes too much on the part of the West, and far too little on behalf of the Horde.
@@brianthomassen2209 Okay, good criticism but I think this series is good enough to make the base of a better make by someone else later on.
However, the Mongols in this telling do have a time constraint.
@@ikengaspirit3063 Hello again, The author accepts the 1242 expedition in force as happened and the return to the Steppe as preplanned. He presents his alternate invasion occuring in 1245. This already indicates the author assumed the Mongols adopted a longer view on the conquest. I don't recall the author ever mentioning a time constraint that would force the invasion forces to adopt a particular X, Y or Z method or tactical posture. If there is one in his version, what could it be that would be compelling? I think my earlier criticism stands and it undercuts the entirety of the narrative.
The naval battle between Imperial and French forces in this episode is one illustration of a false sophistication the author assumes. There are zero examples of Western forces having any large scale naval battles, or adopting the naval manuver that were used in the Classical Age. The only large ship on ship navel actions occuring during the Early and High Middle Ages were various Vikings v. Viking sea battles and those are of a different stripe than this project. The mode of war for the West during the 13th Century was dominated by positional warfare: assuming a strong point and win/lose from seige actions. Field battles were the exception not the rule. The author having Frederick II opt for a naval action makes no sense, particularly when the author stresses how strong the Scilian fortifications were. He makes the Frederick II stupid when there was no rationale to assume a direct confrontation, and at sea to boot! It's odd.
@@brianthomassen2209 You know, you're right. I must have projected from a criticism of Mongol retreat ideas that one of their sources of their mongol timeline stuff on their other channel made.
So to be more elaborate, the main timeline constraint would be that Europe would be part of Jochi's inheritance and thus the golden horde not part of Batu's territory and alot of the soldiers would also not be Jochid so have no territorial inheritance in Europe.
As such Batu and alot of his forces will want to be getting back to their inheritance.
But as I said before I agree with ur criticism.
Edit: Made a mistake, not Batu himself as he was Jochid but definately a huge chunk of the army wasn't jochid like Subatai's inheritance was back in the East.
Loving this history!
Nothing unites Christendom together than their love for infighting for the throne.
Awesome series!
That was some epic poetry there ngl
Well you can't expect Frederick II to go out in any way other than fighting all of Christendom by himself because he can, can you? He'd probably at least have died knowing that he brought his mortal enemy -the papacy- down with him.
Do you guys have a map of this alt history? Would love to see one
This series is so Fucking Great!
Where is the next part?? I neeeeeeds it!!!
I could see an HBO miniseries where you dont relaize its alernative history until midway through, theres so much going on...probably my favorite series yinz ever put out
Finally an Sponsor I can support.
S1914 makes Most fun when roleplayed because then IT feels more realistic
Is there going to be a finale to this?
I certainly hope so!
They've been silent about it for more than half a year so no lol
Which is kinda infuriating. There's one or two more episodes to do.
They could easily finish it.
@declanjones8888 I don't know if maybe the writer/animator left or something. I don't count on seeing the end of it. Shame this is one of the scenarios I've wanted to see forever and this was so well done.
@@tylerwerner291 I know right!
It was so cool and promising.....what a shame.
@@tylerwerner291 they said they are working on it like a month ago so I think it will be done soon, hopefully
I see it is lauched and I am imediately like YES
God I need to see how this ends! Please let it be on the way, even in a year 🙏🏾
I love this series
So the Mongols invasion of Europe ultimately lead to the French Civil War? That is quite interesting! I was originally expected this to happen in Aragon because of how many sons King James had. But this is surely something and I like it! But that means that the Marinid Sultanate or the Emirate of Granada won't be able to expand their realms with the aim of reconquering al-Andalus. And with the Sack of Constantinople never happened in this timeline, I guess this means that the Ottoman Empire will not be able to take Constantinople, right? And if that is the case, will the recently-reborned Roman Republic embarked on the campaign to reconquer Anatolia from the Turkic tribes and the Syrian coasts from the Crusaders? If that happened, it means that the Roman Republic will be facing enemies on two fronts and they are the Mongols of Iranzamin and the Mamluks of Egypt. But due to what Batu Khan did to Rome, I guess the Roman Republic is willing to sign a truce and form an alliance with the Mamluks in the conflict against the Mongols. As a result, the Middle East will once again become the domain of power plays that decided the fate of the international community because while the Romans and the Mamluks are allies, they definitely do not wanted one another to become too powerful for sure and they definitely do not wanted to defeat the Mongols outright but simply keeping them away from their territories. The most common scenarios I can see happening regularly here are that the Roman Republic try to retake Mesopotamia but the Mamluks secretly sabotaged the Romans from total victory by giving secret messages with tips to the Ilkhan of Iranzamin about the Romans military expedition to make sure that the Romans will never gained Mesopotamia back like in ancient times. But eventually, the last Ilkhan of Iranzamin, Abu Sa'id Bahadur Khan, died without a male heir. And this led to the civil war within Iranzamin, which is definitely something that the Roman Republic and the Mamluk Sultanate will take advantage of by supporting rival factions for the claim on the throne. One side will support the late Ilkhan's only daughter while the other will support the Ilkhan's distant relative such as Arpu Ke'un. And as the Republic and the Sultanate are engaged in a proxy war against each other, Timur rose to power in the east and once he unified all lands in Central Asia under his banner, he will turned his attention to Iran later on. Upon hearing about Timur and his army are marching westward, the Roman Republic might called a halt for the proxy war and attempt to negotiate with the Mamluk Sultanate in order to prevent the scenario that led to the rise of the Rashidun Caliphate back then. Knowing the danger Timur posed, the Mamluk Sultan most likely will agreed and decide to cease the proxy war for the time being. But when Timur asked for the hands of Abu Sa'id Bahadur Khan's daughter in marriage, such proposal is most likely rejected And timur will resorted to bringing destruction to Damascus in order to display how serious he is about this. Feared by what he did to Damascus, the faction that the late Ilkhan's daughter is staying with will be forced to bring her to Timur. Once marrying her, Timur will now have two princesses of Chinggis Khan's lineage as his wives and the side that was supporting her will have peaceful relations with Timur's realm in exchange. And if that faction happened to be Roman Republic based in Venice, it means more prosperity in trade due to the safety of the Silk Road promoted by Emir Timir. But when Timur's domain began to fracture, the trade routes on land will begin to decline and the Mamluk Sultanate will become more prosperous instead due to the Maritime Silk Road has become a choice of the merchants to use. And as a result, another war between the Republic and the Sultanate will break out in an attempt to retake Egypt back into the Republic's domain. I know that this is more focusing on the Middle East now but that is because the Middle East is very important during such a time because of the trade routes that went through it.
No Constantinople got sacked in 1204 this is somewhat in 1240.
@@mirzubair8291 I know that. But in this timeline, the Republic of Venice restored and reorganized into the Roman Republic and annexed Constantiople. Did you see the video?
@@lerneanlion Bro Constantinople got sacked in 1204 this event take place in 1242 after checking the video so the city got sacked and isn't the same.
@@mirzubair8291 But what stopped it from being rebuild now that it is part of the Second Roman Republic?
@@lerneanlion See the whole series again plus I think you mistake the color of Latin empire for Venice they are both red.
Please do after this series, a series about what if Caesar survived the assassination
Well, Frederick is down. But i'm eager to see the mongol recovery or utter destruction!
I think Mongols will lay down and let the Crusaders kill one another while they destroy King Bella and are done with Hungary. Plus Fredrick's illegitimate son is still alive. I can sense a lot of blood will spill.
Can you do an AU where Alexander 2 of Russia wasn’t assassinated, and he was able to push forward his reforms?
Charles is a villain. He has betrayed the noble Louis' legacy....
He must be cut down
As He was in real life, he had the 16 year old Conradin of Swabia and Sicily beheaded in Naples and then refused to have his body buried in a Christian graveyard, meaning that Conradin would not be able to go to heaven.
He also called for the extermination of the House of Hohenstaufen (Conradin was the last of them), almost all of the other house member were imprisoned by him and either starved to death, executed or died in imprisonment.
He was a very villainous person, even in our timeline.
Will there ever be a sequel to this episode?
yep, working on it.
@@WizardsandWarriorsyou decided to make a movie or what is it taking so long? ☹️
can you do another alt history series after this one
Frederick it’s a tragic hero
What is up with this timeline and destroying Italian Landmarks? The Mongols destroyed St. Peter's, the tomb of Hadrian and the Pantheon, and the crusaders annihilated Pisa!
and there i thought all your presentations were alternate history lol
I would how would this affect future events
When’s the next episode?
great vid
very good episode but I have to admit that I didn't expect to see Aragon taking over French cities, but with the "antichrist" dead, what will become of Italy?
How could this one slip me by?
Nice History ❤❤❤
Ad skip 1:49.