@@alonedkaiser I think the difference with Olaf/Trundle and Nocturne is that in the case of Olaf/Trundle, they don't instantly clear waves while harassing with kill potential at the same time. Olaf needs to pick up his axes to get the refresh and Trundle needs Tiamat. Nocturne have other part of his kits like a fear and a speed-up to run at you, which makes it pretty brutal to lane against if his numbers are good. Nocturne is in desperate need of a VGU.
To elaborate on what he said about pro play: champions that can flex are very strong blind picks in the draft because they are in little or no danger of being counterpicked. This doesn't really matter in soloq but it easily results in excessive presence in pro play.
@@Okita78 and thats after the nerf, season 11 stridebreaker nocturne top literally had no counterplay, he would walk up to you and you either burned flash or died to autos while feared
@@Theoriginalmistwalker yep, even when you are playing jungle you have to be mindful that nocturne has insane early game damage and fighting him 1v1 at melee range is a death sentence. Not surprised he could be effective in solo lane.
@@Okita78 That's wrong. Bruiser nocturne is much much stronger now then assassin nocturne ever was. Striderbeaker > Frozen Heart -> Seryldas -> Shojin makes Nocturne go in 1v3 and win. He never did that in his life before except when he was super fed as an assassin. Now he just doesn't die perma ccs you and runs down multiple opponents by himself
So he says nocturne has a degenerate laning because he just presses q runs at you and kills you, but they buffed toplane trundle 1 patch ago... Well done
It's more that Nocturne can just Q and AA (with passive) and clear a wave so he has very few interactions with his opponent until he has 6 and at that point he just roams. Trundle is more normal because he has to actually walk in lane so he has a more "healthy" interaction with his opponent in top lane.
@@pajac2137trundle is prolly 10x as frustrating to verse compared to nocturne, not only he stomps most matchups but even if he doesnt he deletes ur turrets in seconds
To be fair, they tried to take her from mid and push her back to bot with the armour buffs and magic resist nerfs. Except this backfired and made Tristana even better mid, where it turned out that people play AD mids enough that the nerfs didn't matter and instead boosted her winrate mid. Then they sort of gave up. At this point she's more of a midlaner than a botlaner.
All they need to do to nerf Tristana mid is just remove her jump reset on bomb explosion, and make it exclusive ot takedowns. That way Tristana can't cheese early solo kills, and it creates more risk patterns for her if she's unable to kill someone within a reasonable time frame.
"We don't want degenerate play patterns" What does that mean? Because I'd say Malphites laning phase is degenerate. He can just Q you and walk away, then build tank counter items and play so safe he shouldn't ever die. To me, that's degenerate, when a champion can shut down any interaction between both laners. Like top Gragas, Blitzcrank into enchanters, or Sion mid with an MR item. You just don't interact.
@@Okita78Morg is dead if she missed Q, Brand still oneshots you before you can get to him unless you're in his jungle early and he facechecks you, which is impossible because no champ can Match his clear speed let alone beat it
Reminder that Morgana was designed as a midlaner. And is currently a pretty bad support. Jungle makes way more sense for Morgana. Q is more likely to hit for the full duration from fog of war. Passive can actually heal you, and W clears fast and actually uses it's reset mechanic. Rather have that than Support Morgana who gets run down the moment she misses Q.
@Wavinto jungle tracking is a thing mate. So is vertical jungling. There are so many ways you can put yourself in position to fight him if you want to.
As of today she literally had a 54.3 percent win rate as apc bot, this isnt just one guy either, 1 in 4 games with seraphine have her as apc bot Shes still fucking broken lol
@@legoshi7350build moonstone on her instead of helia and max W first (inb4 muh damage) and look at how much shielding you provide by spamming it constantly,it's wild. The reality is that being a shieldbot is boring as shit so nobody builds like that.
the mana nerf doesn't stop jg shaco which is likely the thing you fear most my friend. just sucks riot refuses to allow anyone but trist jax and yone to flex pick @@netnooker
they don't really dislike flex picks because of them being degenerate in certain lanes, they do because they are a absolute nightmare to balance, since you can't really nerf them to a specific lane without nerfing them as a whole.
People compare Olaf, Garen, Darius and Trundle because they do the same thing. But they do those things TOP LANE. Nocturne does these things MID. Running at each other and beating each other is normal top. Having that be viable MID is bad.
For a champ like Nocturne to be viable mid, it means he can ignore or outsustain the poke from other mid laners, and then just ult them at 6. It's very uninteractive. The reason Olaf or Trundle is not playable mid is because they will get chunked out. Nocturne can ignore quite a lot of damage, and punish you for landing your abilities and just kill you. It's not even that good, just degenerate and unfun.
@@DrStealthbug kind of... Although Irelia's relative low range and the fact she doesn't have a spell shield (meaning there's at least some safety) makes it not as bad. Yone though... I don't know what they were thinking with this champ, it's degenerate in every lane.
But then Rell was reworked to be both good for jungle and support, most bruiser toplaners perform very well at midlane, *cough cough, ranged top laners, cough cough* the windshitters can go *at least* 3 roles, and so on and so on. How tf are flex picks unhealthy for the game when it has existed since the existence of the concept of picks and bans and no one complained about it?
what he's saying is that Not all flexpicks are unhealthy by nature, but there is in fact champs that are so tight fit into their role that when moved into another they can easily break the game, Pyke mid is the greatest example of this, he is an assasin support so on top of being given assasin qualities he was given many tools in order to function as a support, so when he was taken midlane he was just a way better assasin since he had the tools he inherited from his support part, hence he was nerfed to the ground, yasuo and yone are duelists which means they can do well in any lane where they can trade, hence they can also go botlane in some cases (still not gonna defend Yone cause its degenerate design but this applies to any champ that can duel, hence we have seen stuff like trynda mid or mundo botlane), Ranged tops arent an issue cause most ranged tops are exclusively top (Quinn, Teemo, Kennen) and if they are not they are usually sub optimal when used in toplane, and then champs like Rell, Morg and Brand were given this changes to give them any playrate at all since they are fairly bad and unpopular champs (Morg wasnt unpopular but half her kit is non existant and she probaly needs a midscope)
not all flex picks are unhealthy, it's just some are so they as a whole need to be kept tabs on. one example is pyke mid generating shit tons of gold for the team from only 1 or 2 roams
@@deejaydee1578 Pyke mid's main issue was his sustain and not needing to make economy from lane minions. He provides little interaction in most matchups and can't be denied the lane phase (he doesn't have one basically). Other than that, you're right.
@@deejaydee1578 Tank kha and ekko were also absurd jg/top/mid flex picks. Neat how they made specific changes to their kits & iceborn to get rid of that nonsense then made kat able to do whatever tf she wants
I will NEVER forgive them for nerfing mid lane Viego into irrelevancy. It was some of the most fun ive had with league and it was way more interesting to fight than something like Sylas or Syndra it was NOT degenerate it was COOL
Excessive presence? What about Renekton, Gnar, and Aatrox? Top lane can have some really exciting exchanges, but occasionally we still see Meta's revolve around them as pro mainstays. Being able to flex in pro is more often than not a good thing, the issue is when only 2-3 champions can, and scarcely so. (One role being so much better that flexing, while possible, is troll) I think it's worth letting jungle champions lane, and rather adjust champions based on that. Nocturne did have one issue with that gameplay pattern he described, mana costs. The issue was that it wasn't relevant in every matchup since he could be picked into immobile with only 1 cc for him to spell shield and he'd kill before mana ran out. Slight problem though, that's how he ganks too, the gameplay pattern is the same. The real issue with Noc in particular was that it gave you a strong roamer while leaving jungle open. This is fine if you let the meta shift to accommodate, rather than, well, Quinn it. Idk, I'd rather see champions buffed to match the meta picks rather than nerfing. And increasing armor and magic resists are a big part of that. Much of Talon players' successes in lane can be attributed to his healthy Magic resist, so it's shown to work. (For reference, he has 10 more at level 1 than other AD assassin Zed) Wish August streamed at more opportune times so I could ask him stuff.
The Flex pick part in pro play confuses me a little bit. What parts of that is a sum negative experience in the meta game environment or to the game's health? For clarification, I don't think a champ should be equally good in ALL roles, like August mentioned with the issues regarding Nocturne's trading pattern, but I feel like the flex pick comment was a little confusing.
You'll see a lot of people complain about pro play picks getting stale and flex picking tends to cause that to an even higher degree than x champ being the best in role. For example rell this last worlds was strong in both jungle and support, which meant rell was an extremely safe early pick. If they try to get a support that nullifies rell in lane then they just pick a supp that counters the counterpick and send rell jg and vice versa for picking a jg counter. It just turns into pro teams taking early flex picks to hide information and it ends up with the exact same champions being early picked constantly.
I feel like that happens anyways though to be honest. If you look at the worlds prior to that, you saw roughly the same champs prioritized based on perceived strength and player affinity anyways. There will always be a number of champs that are early rotated within a draft environment, that is just the way drafting works (whether it is MTG, League, Fantasy Football etc) - I feel like negating flex picks just causes the "Handshake" a lot more instead, where they say "We go Thresh, you go Nautilus". Which in turn also makes things stale. A more recent example was the Orianna + Neeko + Azir + Jayce cycle this world for the midlane. Jayce can be flexed top theoretically even though he is not as good up there unless you are mechanically nuts, and Neeko can technically be support even though it is not very common. But everyone knows they won't send Azir Top lane for example, or Orianna support. The staleness of a metagame I feel is a lot more complex than just having/not having flex picks, at least in my opinion @@swolegolisopod7340
@@drjund5827I get that. I feel like it's the Lucian/Sett/Seraphine/Pantheon type flex picks that they really want to avoid. Champs that could go 3 or 4 different lanes so that seeing them literally tells a team nothing.
@@saddocatto2784 TBF he is also one of the only two infinite scalers whose infinite scaling mechanic is tied purely to enemy champions ( Veigars infinite scaling is also purely from enemy champs. ). All the others either have hybrid creep/champion or pure creep scalings.
@jordanmaldonado8784 He works well in Mid and Support, he's just not flashy or uwu like the other popular champs, problem is not in the champ it's in the playerbase
@@Wavinto not saying brand is weak or anything, its just that since his kit is kinda akward and he's not really too appealing to play over more Flexible mages like Syndra, Ori or Viktor he just struggles to keep a playerbase in any role cause people move on to other champs
My first game on xerath I ran into a lethality vi mid and even if I tried to out play nothing worked cause I would poke and she would use Q to dodge or get closer if I E for stun she ults for the unstoppable and just kills me
While it is cool that some champions can be picked on variety of roles, I agree that sometimes gameplay pattern can be not that fun/fair to play against. Thanks for the clip!
Lucian: *gets played mid* Rito: *buffs his adc potential without nerfing his mid at all* Pyke: *gets played mid* Rito: *completely annihilates both his mid AND supp potential because silveroids cry that he is broken*
I wish i could agree, but he was abused in high elo too. Lane pyke had insane clear wave and sustain with his passive, you could literally facetank your opponent while clearing minions, and his E had a big AoE to clear minions as well. Tiamat active was still a thing, Q + Tiamat active was enough to clear it almost instantly; Talon did a similar thing by rushing Tiamat and pressing W + Tiamat and insta clearing waves to roam, thats why they removed the active in the first place, to not have mid laners ignoring lane phase completely and win the game without ever interacting with their opponents, that was an issue old Aurelion Sol had as well where he could max W, clear waves with ONE SKILL (there were spots at mid that allowed him to hit all 6 minions with his stars) and roam with E and Q stun, thats why they nerfed him so much, cause your average gameplay experience against Aurelion was seeing him in lane for 10 seconds at max then watch him fly away to bot, and no other champion could match his presence at level 3, not even Pyke mid. Then you go roam as Pyke and your roam was simply THE BEST. Hook with Slow, strong burst due to high damage with Q AA Tiamat and Electrocute, E to follow enemies if they dash/flash (or even set up the roam with E Flash), and at level 6 you could even reposition your E with your R to guarantee a stun and have make it even easier for your laners. So yes, Pyke mid WAS both strong and cancer to the game. And what are you even saying about Lucian? His only presence relied solely on his Nami interaction, after they nerfed it hes completely gone, only recently after some buffs he started to appear a bit more, but its still shit when compared to before. If anything, this take is more "silveroid than" your attempt to make "silveroids" look bad, specially when low elo players were barely playing Pyke mid 💀
Nocturne is a really bad character to use as an example because the value of the character is partly dependent on their role, specifically with reference to their physical location throughout the laning phase. A nocturne top lane that scares the enemy away from csing due to the threat of a kill is still wasting their kit because they have less options to use ulti on (being junglers fighting/ fights over grubs/herald/ mid lane/ and of course his own laner who is shoved under tower in this instance.. Whereas in JG, his kit is more effectively used because EVERYONE becomes a candidate for nocturne to use their ulti and it doesnt come with the lane-roaming drawback of it being obvious nocturne is about to ult because he's not visible in the lane he's supposed to be in.
The degenerate play pattern thing makes all of the sense in the world, but flex picking in pro play imo is not a good reason to nerf champs out of alternate roles. If anything, it will finally force pro teams to actually get good at drafting.
Idk i think they should balanced more towards fun not esport. If you wanna get rid of "degenerate" Game patterns you might aswell make league of legends 2.
You can dodge noct Q, and you know exactly what nocturne is gonna do lmfao. He says this with such confidence when u have to play against the likes of Fiora/Akali in lane which even if not op are so fucking obnoxious and unfun to play against its unbearable
Lmao, half of DotA drafting is flex picks and nobody bats an eye. It would've worked fine for League, if devs weren't so afraid of "degenerate patterns" and accounted for them when designing stuff. Heck, for a time it _worked_ for league, until they decided to "funsize" everything. Remember pre-rework AP Sion, the small green Sion? The original AP mid Yi? On-hit Lulu? Original Soraka stacking Starfall up to 10? AP Khazix? Blade Waltz with 5x Tiamat? AD tank Nida? AP MF? Granted, those *were* degenerate. But not actually broken (most of the time), very gimmicky and the game was a lot more fun than this sad hyper-polished sterile modern League that absolutely won't allow you anything creative/unintended/spicy, ever. Go to the same lane, build the same shit, over and over again. Macro is a lie, build diversity is a myth, don't think about those. Here's a bunch of new super-complex minion-blocked skillshots to distract you from the fact that the game hasn't had any strategic depth since, like, 2014. Even Zz'rot portal was too spicy for their tastes, lmao. Supports actually having decent heals and shields, also. But apparently the original versions of Censer and Unholy Grail were too stronk to have them in game...how dare ADC not die to a stiff wind... Still salty about those. As it stands, I'm better off in GabeN's poisonous cesspool of a game, at least it's actually a game, not a going-through-motions simulator.
Manaflow bad + fundamentals and you dont ever run out of mana before you set up waves and kills. Even in late game after 2 ULT rotas with axiomArc i still have plent mana left.@@Wavinto
"Qs you, runs at you, kills you. " dude described Olaf.
And trundle. AND they just buffed trundle LOL
@@alonedkaiser I think the difference with Olaf/Trundle and Nocturne is that in the case of Olaf/Trundle, they don't instantly clear waves while harassing with kill potential at the same time. Olaf needs to pick up his axes to get the refresh and Trundle needs Tiamat.
Nocturne have other part of his kits like a fear and a speed-up to run at you, which makes it pretty brutal to lane against if his numbers are good.
Nocturne is in desperate need of a VGU.
And vayne@@alonedkaiser
Garen gaming
@@alonedkaiseryeah because the champ is dogshit…
To elaborate on what he said about pro play: champions that can flex are very strong blind picks in the draft because they are in little or no danger of being counterpicked. This doesn't really matter in soloq but it easily results in excessive presence in pro play.
With all the mobility and power creep they've added to the game it's hilarious to me they're concerned about Nocturne.
Not too long ago (season 11) Nocturne was one of the OP toplaners in the game. You don't need crazy mobility or mechanics to be top tier.
Point click off screen dash into death, a fed assassin Noc deletes ADC without counter play. At least now with brusier Noc you can fight back.
@@Okita78 and thats after the nerf, season 11 stridebreaker nocturne top literally had no counterplay, he would walk up to you and you either burned flash or died to autos while feared
@@Theoriginalmistwalker yep, even when you are playing jungle you have to be mindful that nocturne has insane early game damage and fighting him 1v1 at melee range is a death sentence. Not surprised he could be effective in solo lane.
@@Okita78 That's wrong. Bruiser nocturne is much much stronger now then assassin nocturne ever was. Striderbeaker > Frozen Heart -> Seryldas -> Shojin makes Nocturne go in 1v3 and win. He never did that in his life before except when he was super fed as an assassin. Now he just doesn't die perma ccs you and runs down multiple opponents by himself
So he says nocturne has a degenerate laning because he just presses q runs at you and kills you, but they buffed toplane trundle 1 patch ago... Well done
Exactly, lol,
But Trundle doesn't have a spell shield and a fear
@@Heightren but he has cancer 1v1, you can be fed but it doesnt even matter
It's more that Nocturne can just Q and AA (with passive) and clear a wave so he has very few interactions with his opponent until he has 6 and at that point he just roams.
Trundle is more normal because he has to actually walk in lane so he has a more "healthy" interaction with his opponent in top lane.
@@pajac2137trundle is prolly 10x as frustrating to verse compared to nocturne, not only he stomps most matchups but even if he doesnt he deletes ur turrets in seconds
Nocturne Top: Q's at you, runs at you, kills you
yeah, so pretty much Olaf Top right now...
yet tristana mid is still legal
Yeah that shit is degenerate as fck
To be fair, they tried to take her from mid and push her back to bot with the armour buffs and magic resist nerfs.
Except this backfired and made Tristana even better mid, where it turned out that people play AD mids enough that the nerfs didn't matter and instead boosted her winrate mid.
Then they sort of gave up. At this point she's more of a midlaner than a botlaner.
fucking hate that shit, almost impossible to gank that
fucking facts
All they need to do to nerf Tristana mid is just remove her jump reset on bomb explosion, and make it exclusive ot takedowns. That way Tristana can't cheese early solo kills, and it creates more risk patterns for her if she's unable to kill someone within a reasonable time frame.
"We don't want degenerate play patterns" What does that mean?
Because I'd say Malphites laning phase is degenerate. He can just Q you and walk away, then build tank counter items and play so safe he shouldn't ever die. To me, that's degenerate, when a champion can shut down any interaction between both laners. Like top Gragas, Blitzcrank into enchanters, or Sion mid with an MR item. You just don't interact.
So that's why they make morgana viable on jungle, huh..
Morgana and Brand are just DECENT junglers, just invade and fight them early levels and you'll win most of the time.
well to be fair morg is literally half a champ cause W wasnt an ability before jungle morg and her passive is a joke
@@Okita78Morg is dead if she missed Q, Brand still oneshots you before you can get to him unless you're in his jungle early and he facechecks you, which is impossible because no champ can Match his clear speed let alone beat it
Reminder that Morgana was designed as a midlaner. And is currently a pretty bad support.
Jungle makes way more sense for Morgana. Q is more likely to hit for the full duration from fog of war. Passive can actually heal you, and W clears fast and actually uses it's reset mechanic.
Rather have that than Support Morgana who gets run down the moment she misses Q.
@Wavinto jungle tracking is a thing mate. So is vertical jungling. There are so many ways you can put yourself in position to fight him if you want to.
so why the whole balance circus with seraphine? she wasnt broken in any role the way she was
As of today she literally had a 54.3 percent win rate as apc bot, this isnt just one guy either, 1 in 4 games with seraphine have her as apc bot
Shes still fucking broken lol
@@cavanranger1762 exactly, the point of the changes was to make her more support, but had the opposite effect and then they nerfed her W
@legoshi7350 oh my bad bro I completely misread your comment, been sick as fuck the last few days brain's kinda fried
@@legoshi7350build moonstone on her instead of helia and max W first (inb4 muh damage) and look at how much shielding you provide by spamming it constantly,it's wild.
The reality is that being a shieldbot is boring as shit so nobody builds like that.
"Likes multiple roles, except flex picks."
*Nerfs shacos mana.*
i'm still mad about this lmfao
The less I see shaco in my games the more comfortable i feel bringing a child into this world
the mana nerf doesn't stop jg shaco which is likely the thing you fear most my friend.
just sucks riot refuses to allow anyone but trist jax and yone to flex pick @@netnooker
@@sonnenblume4 naw shaco jg dont bug me, literally freelo. Its when its a shaco support that things get annoying.
@@sonnenblume4 I'd like him lane viable. Destroying his mana when 90% of champs already 1 shot his boxes before they go invisible is bs.
"Nocturne is a jungler and we don't want him played in lane" meanwhile poppys an absolute menace in 4 different roles
they don't really dislike flex picks because of them being degenerate in certain lanes, they do because they are a absolute nightmare to balance, since you can't really nerf them to a specific lane without nerfing them as a whole.
People compare Olaf, Garen, Darius and Trundle because they do the same thing. But they do those things TOP LANE. Nocturne does these things MID. Running at each other and beating each other is normal top. Having that be viable MID is bad.
Why is that bad in mid?
For a champ like Nocturne to be viable mid, it means he can ignore or outsustain the poke from other mid laners, and then just ult them at 6. It's very uninteractive. The reason Olaf or Trundle is not playable mid is because they will get chunked out. Nocturne can ignore quite a lot of damage, and punish you for landing your abilities and just kill you. It's not even that good, just degenerate and unfun.
@@aquidillion Is Irelia mid degenerate?
@@DrStealthbug kind of... Although Irelia's relative low range and the fact she doesn't have a spell shield (meaning there's at least some safety) makes it not as bad. Yone though... I don't know what they were thinking with this champ, it's degenerate in every lane.
But then Rell was reworked to be both good for jungle and support, most bruiser toplaners perform very well at midlane, *cough cough, ranged top laners, cough cough* the windshitters can go *at least* 3 roles, and so on and so on. How tf are flex picks unhealthy for the game when it has existed since the existence of the concept of picks and bans and no one complained about it?
what he's saying is that Not all flexpicks are unhealthy by nature, but there is in fact champs that are so tight fit into their role that when moved into another they can easily break the game, Pyke mid is the greatest example of this, he is an assasin support so on top of being given assasin qualities he was given many tools in order to function as a support, so when he was taken midlane he was just a way better assasin since he had the tools he inherited from his support part, hence he was nerfed to the ground, yasuo and yone are duelists which means they can do well in any lane where they can trade, hence they can also go botlane in some cases (still not gonna defend Yone cause its degenerate design but this applies to any champ that can duel, hence we have seen stuff like trynda mid or mundo botlane), Ranged tops arent an issue cause most ranged tops are exclusively top (Quinn, Teemo, Kennen) and if they are not they are usually sub optimal when used in toplane, and then champs like Rell, Morg and Brand were given this changes to give them any playrate at all since they are fairly bad and unpopular champs (Morg wasnt unpopular but half her kit is non existant and she probaly needs a midscope)
not all flex picks are unhealthy, it's just some are so they as a whole need to be kept tabs on. one example is pyke mid generating shit tons of gold for the team from only 1 or 2 roams
@@deejaydee1578 Pyke mid's main issue was his sustain and not needing to make economy from lane minions. He provides little interaction in most matchups and can't be denied the lane phase (he doesn't have one basically). Other than that, you're right.
@@deejaydee1578 Tank kha and ekko were also absurd jg/top/mid flex picks. Neat how they made specific changes to their kits & iceborn to get rid of that nonsense then made kat able to do whatever tf she wants
I will NEVER forgive them for nerfing mid lane Viego into irrelevancy. It was some of the most fun ive had with league and it was way more interesting to fight than something like Sylas or Syndra it was NOT degenerate it was COOL
Viego mid was the exact issue he mentioned in this video and it's pro play presence xD
Fun is not allowed
viego lane got hit because of pro play he is not degenarate in lane fuıck pro play
well now its slightly back, have fun
I love that I can play swain just about anywhere, and that I can play cho gath literally anywhere
meanwhile vayne tristana and varus out there bing chilling top mid adc and even support sometimes
I just watch these league dev videos every now and again to remind myself why I quit that degenerate game
Excessive presence? What about Renekton, Gnar, and Aatrox? Top lane can have some really exciting exchanges, but occasionally we still see Meta's revolve around them as pro mainstays.
Being able to flex in pro is more often than not a good thing, the issue is when only 2-3 champions can, and scarcely so. (One role being so much better that flexing, while possible, is troll)
I think it's worth letting jungle champions lane, and rather adjust champions based on that. Nocturne did have one issue with that gameplay pattern he described, mana costs. The issue was that it wasn't relevant in every matchup since he could be picked into immobile with only 1 cc for him to spell shield and he'd kill before mana ran out. Slight problem though, that's how he ganks too, the gameplay pattern is the same. The real issue with Noc in particular was that it gave you a strong roamer while leaving jungle open. This is fine if you let the meta shift to accommodate, rather than, well, Quinn it.
Idk, I'd rather see champions buffed to match the meta picks rather than nerfing. And increasing armor and magic resists are a big part of that. Much of Talon players' successes in lane can be attributed to his healthy Magic resist, so it's shown to work. (For reference, he has 10 more at level 1 than other AD assassin Zed)
Wish August streamed at more opportune times so I could ask him stuff.
The Flex pick part in pro play confuses me a little bit. What parts of that is a sum negative experience in the meta game environment or to the game's health? For clarification, I don't think a champ should be equally good in ALL roles, like August mentioned with the issues regarding Nocturne's trading pattern, but I feel like the flex pick comment was a little confusing.
You'll see a lot of people complain about pro play picks getting stale and flex picking tends to cause that to an even higher degree than x champ being the best in role.
For example rell this last worlds was strong in both jungle and support, which meant rell was an extremely safe early pick. If they try to get a support that nullifies rell in lane then they just pick a supp that counters the counterpick and send rell jg and vice versa for picking a jg counter. It just turns into pro teams taking early flex picks to hide information and it ends up with the exact same champions being early picked constantly.
I feel like that happens anyways though to be honest. If you look at the worlds prior to that, you saw roughly the same champs prioritized based on perceived strength and player affinity anyways. There will always be a number of champs that are early rotated within a draft environment, that is just the way drafting works (whether it is MTG, League, Fantasy Football etc) - I feel like negating flex picks just causes the "Handshake" a lot more instead, where they say "We go Thresh, you go Nautilus". Which in turn also makes things stale. A more recent example was the Orianna + Neeko + Azir + Jayce cycle this world for the midlane. Jayce can be flexed top theoretically even though he is not as good up there unless you are mechanically nuts, and Neeko can technically be support even though it is not very common. But everyone knows they won't send Azir Top lane for example, or Orianna support. The staleness of a metagame I feel is a lot more complex than just having/not having flex picks, at least in my opinion @@swolegolisopod7340
@@drjund5827I get that. I feel like it's the Lucian/Sett/Seraphine/Pantheon type flex picks that they really want to avoid. Champs that could go 3 or 4 different lanes so that seeing them literally tells a team nothing.
I type degenerate in league and I get chat restricted. This guy just sayin it like its nbd
He's not using the word to insult anyone though. He's describing the gameplay.
@@EddyConejo neither am I! I called myself one in a joke
If lane nocturn is good then its like if trundle had an ult that let him tp directly on top of you on a 30 second cooldown.
swain has 4 roles but isnt played in pro play so im happy
Wish he was viable in Jungle
@@Wavinto i think he is the only infinitely stacking champs that doesnt get stacks off jg camps its so sad
@@saddocatto2784 TBF he is also one of the only two infinite scalers whose infinite scaling mechanic is tied purely to enemy champions ( Veigars infinite scaling is also purely from enemy champs. ). All the others either have hybrid creep/champion or pure creep scalings.
I still think it'd be a great idea to rebalance fiddle's drain effectiveness against wave to make him a niche laner again
problems with flex picks arise when said picks are also as strong or stronger than other picks in that role, like Rell was for a while for example
Oh yeah. That's why they buffed Brand for jungle and like every other random champ for jungle
probably cause brand struggles to find a role at all
@jordanmaldonado8784 He works well in Mid and Support, he's just not flashy or uwu like the other popular champs, problem is not in the champ it's in the playerbase
@@Wavinto not saying brand is weak or anything, its just that since his kit is kinda akward and he's not really too appealing to play over more Flexible mages like Syndra, Ori or Viktor he just struggles to keep a playerbase in any role cause people move on to other champs
So then why do they try to push brand, morg, zyra jungle so much?
I'm sad that nidalee support was nerfed before I started playing
My first game on xerath I ran into a lethality vi mid and even if I tried to out play nothing worked cause I would poke and she would use Q to dodge or get closer if I E for stun she ults for the unstoppable and just kills me
the only annoying thing is Noc ult duration. The nearsighted thing lasts so fucking long lmao
It's funny how it counts as 6 sec of hard cc on All (alive) enemy champions so it's not uncommon to have 200+ CC score in a game
While it is cool that some champions can be picked on variety of roles, I agree that sometimes gameplay pattern can be not that fun/fair to play against.
Thanks for the clip!
olaf has been 52-53% winrate every patch. like ?XD
"yeah we make the game less fun to play because we need to make pro more boring to watch"
Lucian: *gets played mid*
Rito: *buffs his adc potential without nerfing his mid at all*
Pyke: *gets played mid*
Rito: *completely annihilates both his mid AND supp potential because silveroids cry that he is broken*
Pyke is broken he can dash a million times late game and heal max hp, he can execute as a supp so like ❤
I wish i could agree, but he was abused in high elo too. Lane pyke had insane clear wave and sustain with his passive, you could literally facetank your opponent while clearing minions, and his E had a big AoE to clear minions as well. Tiamat active was still a thing, Q + Tiamat active was enough to clear it almost instantly; Talon did a similar thing by rushing Tiamat and pressing W + Tiamat and insta clearing waves to roam, thats why they removed the active in the first place, to not have mid laners ignoring lane phase completely and win the game without ever interacting with their opponents, that was an issue old Aurelion Sol had as well where he could max W, clear waves with ONE SKILL (there were spots at mid that allowed him to hit all 6 minions with his stars) and roam with E and Q stun, thats why they nerfed him so much, cause your average gameplay experience against Aurelion was seeing him in lane for 10 seconds at max then watch him fly away to bot, and no other champion could match his presence at level 3, not even Pyke mid.
Then you go roam as Pyke and your roam was simply THE BEST. Hook with Slow, strong burst due to high damage with Q AA Tiamat and Electrocute, E to follow enemies if they dash/flash (or even set up the roam with E Flash), and at level 6 you could even reposition your E with your R to guarantee a stun and have make it even easier for your laners. So yes, Pyke mid WAS both strong and cancer to the game.
And what are you even saying about Lucian? His only presence relied solely on his Nami interaction, after they nerfed it hes completely gone, only recently after some buffs he started to appear a bit more, but its still shit when compared to before.
If anything, this take is more "silveroid than" your attempt to make "silveroids" look bad, specially when low elo players were barely playing Pyke mid 💀
Because pyke mid promotes some of the most degenerate gameplay
Nocturne is a really bad character to use as an example because the value of the character is partly dependent on their role, specifically with reference to their physical location throughout the laning phase. A nocturne top lane that scares the enemy away from csing due to the threat of a kill is still wasting their kit because they have less options to use ulti on (being junglers fighting/ fights over grubs/herald/ mid lane/ and of course his own laner who is shoved under tower in this instance.. Whereas in JG, his kit is more effectively used because EVERYONE becomes a candidate for nocturne to use their ulti and it doesnt come with the lane-roaming drawback of it being obvious nocturne is about to ult because he's not visible in the lane he's supposed to be in.
they also aren't equally balanced when they can go multiple roles
Honestly, almost every champ in the game is a multiple role champion. League players are just hella closed minded.
then where is hecarim top he was never a problem to balance in toplane
Degenerate play patterns.
I'm so glad he understands the technical terms of gameplay, what a smart man.
The degenerate play pattern thing makes all of the sense in the world, but flex picking in pro play imo is not a good reason to nerf champs out of alternate roles. If anything, it will finally force pro teams to actually get good at drafting.
perfect example of delusional riot devs
Nerf trist mid!
"Degenerate patterns" meanwhile Yuumi, K'Sante, and Yone entering the game 🤡
As always. Pro Play. Pro play is the reason the game is less fun :D
nocturne is my support pick when i get ally-banned.
SO THEN WHY DID YOU NERF PYKE MIIIIIIIIIID. GIVE HIM BACK TO MEEEEEE
the same reason talon is nerfed to the ground
yeah cause nocturne Qing and running you down in the jungle is enjoyable gameplay.
You can choose to go into his jungle and fight him or not, in lane your stuck with the enemy champ for like 15 min
Lethality vi mid into immobile mages
Idk i think they should balanced more towards fun not esport.
If you wanna get rid of "degenerate" Game patterns you might aswell make league of legends 2.
they killed lucian yet trist is mid
You can dodge noct Q, and you know exactly what nocturne is gonna do lmfao. He says this with such confidence when u have to play against the likes of Fiora/Akali in lane which even if not op are so fucking obnoxious and unfun to play against its unbearable
And then they ARE op on top of it tho
Lmao, half of DotA drafting is flex picks and nobody bats an eye. It would've worked fine for League, if devs weren't so afraid of "degenerate patterns" and accounted for them when designing stuff. Heck, for a time it _worked_ for league, until they decided to "funsize" everything. Remember pre-rework AP Sion, the small green Sion? The original AP mid Yi? On-hit Lulu? Original Soraka stacking Starfall up to 10? AP Khazix? Blade Waltz with 5x Tiamat? AD tank Nida? AP MF?
Granted, those *were* degenerate. But not actually broken (most of the time), very gimmicky and the game was a lot more fun than this sad hyper-polished sterile modern League that absolutely won't allow you anything creative/unintended/spicy, ever. Go to the same lane, build the same shit, over and over again. Macro is a lie, build diversity is a myth, don't think about those. Here's a bunch of new super-complex minion-blocked skillshots to distract you from the fact that the game hasn't had any strategic depth since, like, 2014. Even Zz'rot portal was too spicy for their tastes, lmao. Supports actually having decent heals and shields, also. But apparently the original versions of Censer and Unholy Grail were too stronk to have them in game...how dare ADC not die to a stiff wind... Still salty about those.
As it stands, I'm better off in GabeN's poisonous cesspool of a game, at least it's actually a game, not a going-through-motions simulator.
Balancing for pros =lamest game imaginable for everyone else. Make the game fun again
Ok Nerf lane WW then thanks
bring back pyke mid
Nocturne bad champion
developed for brain dead eyes drops pain meds cyclops
Fiddle in lane shoves the wave camps the bush pretending yo have backed and fishes for ulti. You run at him he fears you
Junglers are by default better than other characters... good to know maybe nerfing jungle should include nerfing the junglers themselves more.
Is already the role which is given the least but at the same time most expected from
Noc is still insane pick for top. Idk what he means by nerfed for top
Mediocre top at best
They basically removed his mana pool, 3 abilities oom
Manaflow bad + fundamentals and you dont ever run out of mana before you set up waves and kills. Even in late game after 2 ULT rotas with axiomArc i still have plent mana left.@@Wavinto
Agree. He isnt an allround main that can be picked into anything but when climbing he is effective 1v9 snowballer into certain matchups.@@Okita78