Big shoutout to Adam Barker who took the free cam footage for this video. Check out his pvp content: th-cam.com/users/AdamBarkerThe Also huge thanks to Shimhaq who is the talent behind the art commissioned for the thumbnail: twitter.com/shimhaq?s=21&t=JxXVanXLp1eEM7QVoTTodw
Theory: The Dark Moon is a gigantic Graven Mass made by the Eternal City by combining the heads of primeval sorcerers with glintstone. This gigantic Graven Mass successfully ascended the sky and became an outer god with a collective consciousness. Ranni wants to join this Graven Mass to become part of it, this is why she left the Lands Between in the Age of the Stars ending.
@@keith964 how does she come back then? It's not like you can unfuse yourself from one of these glimstone monstrosities at will. Interesting theory tho.
There's lots of indications that Sellia is allied with the Eternal cities, or at least have a degree of Nox influence inside their walls. The Night sorceries, the fact that they're located right above an Eternal city, and the mini boss fight we have with two Nox maidens. Could this also be the real reason Radahn challenged the stars? Holding Sellia secure might mean holding it secure from further Nox influence, since the stars that fell down to the Lands Between after his death doesn't really threaten Sellia at all.
If you neglect to tell Sellen about the location of Lusat, her quest continues to Raya Lucaria and she will continue to stay in the middle of the room untransformed, asking you for the location of Lusat. It's only when you tell her, that she finally transforms. For me this cements the fact that she indeed transformed herself into a graven mass with Azur and Lusat's bodies
Clearly didn't work out. But Azur and Lustat were on another level compared to her. Azur and Lustat were like Super Saiyan Blue, or even Perfected Ultra Instinct. For all her infamy Sellen was nowhere near them. If she had been, maybe it would have worked. She was riding on the coat tails of true masters.
Interesting. Wonder if it was worth turning herself into a vegetable lol. Maybe it's a bit like transcendence in Bloodborne, where it can be intoxicating and invigorating. But she can't move or speak properly... for some reason.
@Jake_ From_State I once made the joke that Sellen just kicked the door down, strolled up to Renala, yoinked her amber egg and tossed it out the window. Followed immediately by Renala yeeting herself out after it. She went missing for hours. No search party was sent.
@Jake_ From_State actually, renala did not disappear. when sellen is standing in the room, if you search the room, you'll find renala in the back hiding
10:06 It's worth noting that you cannot open the chest containing the Fingerslayer Blade until you have talked to Ranni in her rise and entered into her service. Trying to do so displays a message saying: "You are not destined to open this." Even though Ranni's fate has been released and Nokron made accessible, the fact that you are not in her service means that Fate still blocks you. As a Tarnished, we have no Fate, as discussed in the video, but we are allowed to at least hold the Fingerslayer Blade while in her service. It's interesting to see that Fate has strict rules and can be worked around in this way.
the tarnished's fate is to roam the land become stronger and return to the lands between to attempt to become elden lord... like that's the whole point of the game lol.
@@epiccthulu It wasn't just the fae, they were only the most aware of the fact. All people were bound by fate in that game, except of course, for you and everyone you touched.
@@TheSuperRatt technically. We're also still bound to fate, anything that the game limits us to do, is part of fate limiting us. Which would be a really good excuse as to why I CANT SAVE BLAIDD AND IJI FROMSOFT WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY
People who don't understand why Fromsoftwares implicit story telling is good, also don't understand we enjoy watching hours upon hours of lore videos! Not only do these videos have a lot more information and hit way harder than a 1 minute cutscene, but the community involvement is amazing! Thanks for doing what you do Smough!
What's always blown my mind is the way they layer their stories. A player can play this game and not care about the story at all. They can also play and simply understand basic concepts like we are traversing a broken world and collecting pieces of the elden ring by defeating demi-god bosses in order to ultimately become the new elden lord. They can go one step further and look into the lore of the NPCs they see in game. Then they can even go a step further and delve into the timeline/events and where the NPCs fit in to them. At the end of all that they can still start to look into understanding the concepts and the inner workings of the world in-game such as glintstone, puppetry, the primeval current, the crucible, curses, outer god motivations, the connection between fungus and the scarlet rot, fate, unalloyed gold, etc etc. There are so many layers of understanding built into these games and its an absolute joy to discover. I've had so many "Aha!" moments when connections are made between NPCs, events, factions, and concepts in this game. Bloodborne/Dark Souls will always have a special place in my heart but Elden Ring lore is a culmination of what Fromsoft has learned when crafting these worlds and they definitely keep getting better.
I get the impression that the tonic didn't work on Ranni because she has no actual body to intoxicate. Makes it really funny that Selivus would overlook such an obvious detail
@@nointro Most Likely not. Renna was a powerful witch that directly inspired Ranni. If seluvis got to the point of controlling someone that powerful he wouldn't give it away.
Fun idea a friend told me; the idea that Seluvis was ALWAYS a puppet, from the moment we meet him, controlled by Pidia. Seluvis enters his "Puppet Position" at the same time that Pidia's soldier puppets kill him. Pidia has the puppet reward that is otherwise given to us if we give Nepheli the puppet potion. Seluvis also seems to not understand the difference between two different people, as he acts as though Dung Eater is Nepheli when he is given the potion instead, prehaps a sign that he is a mere puppet, controlled by Pidia? Just an idea.
Added to this a little detail I've accidentally fallen on him from his second story and he releases the same little sparks that your summons do when hit
Accidentally? Maybe he knew much more than we are led to believe, he was taught by an alien, he could have been altered by cherry picking stars / horrors into the land between and defeating them himself, maybe that's why he so huge, dna alteration, scourged by the stars, he was messing with something taboo. He became the one who holds everyones fate in his hands, he was tring to become a god, I reckon he could have rivaled the gods easily in full power, he tanked an Empyrean nuke and survived, he was all about study of the stars...Definitely dangerous to any order if left unchecked
@@Tower-kn1dr 3 weeks late, probably a bot that got its comment removed/banned. There's been a real uptick of bots spamming links recently, and while some get through some end up getting banned, however while their reply is invisible it is still counted as a reply that was made just now you can't see it. That's also why sometimes you'll now find a comment that say it has a reply but nothing shows up.
Jerren's relationship with the Carian royal family is further elaborated him if you talk to him before the festival is active, but only after you join Ranni's group. He mentions that beating Radahn can unlock Ranni's fate, and muses about how Iji is faring. Once you talk to Iji, he realizes the implications of Radahn stopping the stars and you can tell Blaidd as an alternative way of proceeding with Ranni's questline. If you do this, Iji also mentions afterwards that now that fate has resumed, Sellen is deprived of her immortality, meaning that Jerren is not only free of his promise to Radahn, but also free to kill her.
Wow, really? How do you do that, out of curiosity? I thought joining Ranni’s group triggers the Festival anyways? Or is there a step in the Ranni quest that triggers it?
Sad, I really liked Sellen. Her "farewell" and encouragement about you becoming an Elden Lord was pretty unique. Hopefully the graven school is some sort of cocoon-like metamorphosis form, like Astel has, and with time they would find what they wanted, even if it seems unlikely.
It's possible she could be pulled out of her horrid state, but I somewhat doubt it. Certainly a sorcerous protagonist with all the time in the world on their hands could poke about graven schools to see if you can unravel them without killing everyone inside, but whether or not that happens is likely down to head canon more that anything.
41:48 might be worth noting that Rennala never left that room. When Sellen is there, Rennala can be found right behind one of bookshelves. I thought that was kinda neat.
Just spitballing a fun train of thought: The contention between primeval sorcerers and those of the other conspectuses (idk how that would be pluralized?) made me think of the separation between subfields of physics in our world. As you were speculating on what the primeval current is, and its connection to the Void and the birth of stars, I wondered if primeval sorcery might be analogous to particle physics. Particle physicists study the fundamental subatomic units of our universe, in order to understand how governing laws such as mass and gravity come about. Primeval sorcerers study glintstone as units of cosmic life, perhaps getting at how the divine Outer Gods may all originate from the same fundamental phenomena. Many particle physics experiments, in some way, seek to create a mini Big Bang by smashing together particles in an accelerator. Maybe primeval sorceries are doing something similar by creating a tiny sample of the primeval current in the mortal world: a glimpse into a primordial state of the cosmos when the primeval current was all-encompassing, not distantly operating in the Void. Also funny to me to think about how people were freaking out when the particle physicists at CERN were starting up the Large Hadron Collider's experiments. How they'd end up making a black hole that would consume the planet or something. Our own cosmos are already horrifyingly eldritch and incomprehensible.
Your conclusion about The Void being the birth place of the stars is really interesting. Maybe it's a stretch, but i will take a step further and say that The Void is the birth place of all celestial bodies: meteorites, comets, stars etc. So, by using glintstone sorcery, you would be actually sort of giving birth to a new celestial body, be it a comet (Comet Azur), a small comet (Glintstone Pebble), a meteor (Meteorite) or a cluster of stars(Stars of Ruin). Also, the Meteorite spell literally says that you call meteorites from "The Void".
I believe the void is a celestial crucible. When I hear the term "primeval current" I think about a river, a primeval river, a celestial river that carrys all things from a celestial crucible. The movement of the stars is this primeval current, since they all move in accordance with the flowing of the river. But perhaps with time this river spills into smaller rivers, such that the astrologers could no longer glimpse the original, the primeval current. Sellen and her contemporaries tap into this flow of energy and, like following a river, eventually arrive at its origin, the void, the celestial crucible.
I'm gonna be honest, I've held vaati as the standard for lore videos since he started, buuut... He isn't really making them anymore ("secrets" videos don't count), and your content is amazing. A new contender has emerged.
Your nit the only one whos noticed. Was so excited when he finally released a lore video, but nothing but "secret" videos lately. Hope the guy does what he wants but IV stopped checking his channel. If he ever finds unique lore in sure I'll watch but seems like there others like our boy here picking up vaatis slack.
@@SmoughTown Comparing to Vaati, I truly love how you go into a lot more details. To criticize though, Vaati tries a lot to be poetic in his writing throughout the video. I'm definitely NOT saying that you should do that though. I'm just saying that's something that I love about Vaati's work.
Theory - Perhaps the reason the Golden Order came down so hard on astrologers, was because they saw astrology as a threat to their power. When fate is determined by something else, the ones in power feel threatened. It's possible they may have even seen the downfall of the Order in the stars? If so, then Radahn freezing the stars - denying the progress of fate - makes a lot of sense for one devoted to the Order. With the Primeval Current so closely tied to the stars and fate, it is no wonder those who wanted to restore it were persecuted.
Honestly one of the best stories and NPC of Elden ring. Loved Sellen’s quest line. The graven schools are my favorite enemies just for how simple they are, yet they tell you everything about them in one look.
Smough, you have quickly solidified yourself as my favorite Elden Ring Creator. Excited to see what other content and games you plan to cover in the future. Thanks for doing what you do, my friend.
So the Carian Royals were the best astronomers, they gazed at the stars, mapped the stars, you can picture them mapping all astrological bodies and their orbits. Including falling stars. They would have knowledge of their orbital paths and they would be the only ones with the knowledge of say potential impacts and exactly where said impacts would happen. So they could see into the future in this way, and they would have known if one falling star might one day impact near a certain hidden city.. that would allow Ranni to progress her destiny against the Golden Order. But here comes Raddahn, with his study of gravity magic to stop, to arrest all these orbiting bodies, he stops any possibility of a falling star from impacting and opening the way to the eternal city, therefore hindering any attempt to thwart the Golden Order. We know this because the second the General dies and his gravity magic dispels all the falling stars he personally has stopped all at once begin their descents. Here is a physical scientific means for the Carians to be able to “see into the future” and see “destinies” with actual study of orbits and the stars, and other astrological bodies.
@@Miriam_J_ i feel as if the definitive evidence of rykard and radahn being close is that there’s a painting of him at volcano manor is a bit of a stretch, although i could see it, rykard is said to have personally helped in ranni’s scheme to do the whole godwyn death thing which would help ranni’s destiny so i don’t think they would’ve been that close if radahn puts her whole destiny to a halt. also is malenia fighting for the golden order? she seems to be 100% loyal to miquella and while he did help radagon with that stuff he ended up rejecting it all for his own unalloyed deal so melanie would’ve followed suit right? feel free to correct me on anything because i have a feeling i could’ve messed up some stuff but these are just my thoughts on that
@@saintsfearful Yeah it seems there is a "damned if you do and damned if you don't" situation in The Lands Between. Kill Radahn and overthrow the Golden Order and there is potentially a huge power vacuum and the Lands Between is basically under constant threat of alien invasion (which is already a minor problem. Even with Radahn alive the occasional Fallingstar beast still makes it through and of course the Frenzied Flame, Formless Mother, the Moon, etc. are trying to establish a foothold). Don't do that and you remain under the thumb of the Greater Will.
@@i-eat-moss good point, do we know why Malenia challenged Radahn? I can't find a good reason in the lore. She wasn't interested in becoming elden Lord, so claiming Radahns great rune couldn't be the reason.
Incredible video. At the moment I believe you are the best lore story-teller in the Elden Ring series. One note is that most speculation is that Selivus is a puppet and is controlled by Pidia. At the end of his questline you can hear pidia begging for his life as he is killed by his own puppets. Selivus was just another one of Pidiaa victims. And I believe Ranni was aware of this as the puppets probably kill him but by order of Ranni.
@@RoyalMudcrab I have not seen or tried that personally. But if that is the case, then its definitely a mystery what the actual correlation between them is. I will go and try it out now.
Already commented once lol, but taking some time to really let it sink in, I've had some additional thoughts Specifically, I think it's interesting that while everybody makes such a distinction between sorceries and incantations, ultimately the source of incantations is just another creature sent down from the stars. In fact, if Hyetta is to be believed, all forms of life, star or god or whatever, were once part of the same being Which kind of makes sense if you look at color schemes for magic in Elden Ring. The different kinds/sources of magic each seem to have their own distinct color. Red for the flame of ruin, orange for the frenzied flame, yellow for the greater will, green for most glintstone, blue for the moon, indigo for gravity, etc etc It's almost like it all used to be one pure white current of energy that emerged from the darkness of the abyss and, somewhere along the way, passed through a prism that divided it into these distinct aspects. Aspects with not only their own magical properties, but with their own personalities and goals and desires
I wonder if the graven mass at the Raya Lucaria tower was a success, because it is lifeless, but there are stars in the room, and I wonder if that has something to do with the underground cities making their own sky. Also, I wonder if Ranni was chosen as an empyrean by the two fingers to bind her fate because she was meant to bring about the age of stars, but would be unable to if she was an empyrean for the greater will.
I know Nokron at least has those big masses of petrified people seemingly praying/begging all over the buildings. Maybe the city robbed of a sky prayed for a new one at the cost of themselves?
@@MrCeratix I can't think of anything worse than having your physical body sacrificed to become new celestial bodies destined to watch over your own corpse for eternity. What I'm getting at is if everyone has 2 bodies in ER (physical and spiritual), sacrificing one to a god isn't unheard of. The fire giant sacrifices his flesh for power, I can see that happening in the eternal city.
Another near 1 hour lore video to enjoy over the weekend. Cant wait. Your content has been an absolute treat, and fine addition to the Elden Ring community. Thank you!
There’s also Mad Tongue Alberich, who is associated with the red primeval current. What’s really strange about Alberich is that they’re tarnished, which implies they went to lands far away and were called back by long lost grace. Altering Alberich’s hat reveals that they also had part of their head replaced with red glintstone. There are only two spells associated with red glintstone, the briars of punishment and briars of sin, which are used by thorn-fire sorcerers throughout the lands between. This red glintstone sorcery is powered by blood sacrifices, which was also used to create the stones on Alberich’s robe. Too bad those spells kind of stink, but the armour set is nice.
The fact that Sellen seems to retrieve the bodies of lusat and azur but their armor is left behind, makes me think that one possible reason her graven school failed was because she didn't realize their helms were actually the seat of their consciousness. She thought they were just regalia, and discarded them in favor of what was left of their human bodies. And so they were never truly incorporated into her graven school
Vaati has a very important role in the community, I I probably wouldn't have ever played souls games if his videos didn't get me interested in them, and also solidified my interest in the lore of these games. But ma boy smoughtown is the king of lore deep dives right now. what some may cover in 20min, he is able to fill an entire hour with amazing and Accurate info, and still manages to make it entertaining to listen to. Speculation is labeled as such, but also given evidence directly from the game. A++
Vaati isn't making the kind of content he once was. The quality has significantly dropped. I will always have respect for him as he is a progenitor of the lore community that we have today. So it's sad to see him become so cookie cutter. Luckily, we have guys like Smough to take up the mantle who produce incredible content.
@@river7874 I don't doubt that in depth vaati lore videos will come, I don't think he ever puts those out right away, hell, he was making new Bloodborne and ds3 lore videos for 4+ years. I don't think he was ever first to make videos on specific lore topics. This seems par for the course for most releases, lot of tips and secrets lists right after a game release. Not my favorite content, but I have learned a few things from them, so I'll give him that.
@@river7874 Vaati focuses more on narrating the lore as if it were a story over reporting and organizing the information like Smough does. Smough is a historian reporting his findings in an objective manner so that we can understand the events, vernacular, and politics of the game. Vaati is a bard/ play writer weaving a narrative that helps us empathize with the characters, understand their motivations, and weep at their tragedies. Plot vs Story.
I just wanna say that it's been great seeing your content continually improve over time. Not just production, quality and information but your skill as a storyteller. Hour long videos feel like they're over way too fast and that's a remarkable quality. Thanks for the content my friend.
One thing I find particularly interesting about the proximity of the areas around both full grown Astel and their two larval forms is that they are areas where Frenzy and Rot have precedence. In Ainsel and Yelough Anix we see Miranda Flowers and Trolls with Madness, and obviously we've got the Cloyster. I'm not saying that the Astel are sent by these Outer Gods, but that they end up exerting their influence through them. The relation both indirect and opportunistic.
I can't quite put that one together. Malenia is implied to be influenced by an outer god of scarlet rot, such that she has become a "goddess of rot" (at least in relation to being worshipped by the kindred). This power could also be passed to others, as we see in Millicent's questline. The unnamed outer god of rot is said to be sealed away and is being worshipped by the kindred of rot at the Grand Cloister near the Lake of Rot. This would almost suggest that from the Grand Cloister you would be able to reach where this outer god of rot is sealed away, but the path from there leads only to Astel, a being of the stars with no power over rot, no clear connection to rot, to the kindred or to Malenia. The other place you find Astel is in the Yelough Anix Tunnel. The nearby ruins which share the name are infested with creatures touched by the Frenzied Flame, but the tunnel is a frozen mine containing both Onyx & Alabaster lords, the visitors from the stars who are possibly enemies of Astel & other star creatures like Fallingstar Beasts. You can also find one of these in the Lake of Rot near the Cloister.
@@mediumvillain There is nothing to suggest the Lords are enemies of Astel, they are beings that were awakened by the influence of meteors, and there's nothing else to suggest their alliances. You just fan ficed that. Astel and Fallingstars are beasts that fall within the meteors/stars, terms that the game uses interchangeably. In a way, they are the meteors. And I beg of you to read, I said the relation to them is indirect and opportunistic. Your first paragraph is utterly meaningless to what I said.
I would not be surprised if outer gods sent Astel, or at least were able to influence where they landed. The Eternal City is accused of 'high treason', the proof of which is a weapon that can harm the Greater Will itself, and is then destroyed by Astel? Seems too good to be a coincidence.
The outer gods aren't hiding the fact that they have the audacity to step on each other's toes. Marikas empyrean children,save Melina, are outright born tampered with the influence of other outer gods trying to snake their way into having their own minor God to control as the head of their rule over the lands between. Don't know who's messing with Miquella, but Melania is infected by the outer goddess of rot and Ranni as a Carian Royal already has ties to the outer Moon God.
Well, if the Astels are stars then it makes sense that outer gods sent them, or at least that they can. The elden beast was once a “golden star” according to elden stars. Astel’s remembrance does say that he once took away an eternal cities sky, and we know the nox were banished underground to a false sky by the greater will. Perhaps the astels/stars were the mechanism by which that was done.
Very cool analysis! Also, a detail I noticed: Astel actually has an eye, you can see it moving around in their skull during the boss fight. Moreover, Lusat’s crown jewel is eerily similar to the eye of Astel…
Lusat may have joined himself with a God from the void having it take on some of his traits and borrowing his crown as a way to stay tethered to our realm.
It seems to me like a recurring theme for all the sorcerous characters is selfishness or moral ambivalence. Sellen is willing to experiment on her fellow sorcerers, trapping their souls in a state of inhuman, bodiless torment to further her goals, and as Smough points out, her mentors seem to have done the same. Selivus steals the bodies and fates of others for his own amusement and use and even Rani's ultimate plan is to ascend into a godhood that will benefit her and her consort, but leave everyone else, even her closest allies and servants to rot. Astel's fractured skull, reminiscent of the insight-bearing skulls of Bloodborne, but filled with an immense glintstone eye where a brain should be does indeed suggest that he might be a sorcerer who managed to be born as a star, though he is malformed, just as the graven schools are all failed experiments. In time, Rani's fate might well be similar, unless she can perfect the power of the stars. When we hear that Astel did not merely destroy an eternal city but took away their sky, this is the bit that ties him together with that same selfish mindset for me. Astel was once a sorcerer who yearned to be a star, but when his rebirth was only partially successful, he became a void-borne being of unending hunger and need, thoughtlessly pursuing a connection to the birthplace of the stars he will never reach. In his own pursuit of the primeval current, he was called to the Lands between by the Nox in their attempts to birth or summon a Lord of Stars and consumed the stars of the Eternal City's false sky in a futile attempt to attain the void that was always out of reach, heedless of the destruction he wrought on the mortals and their city.
@@decoherant Ranni, I think, is not motivated by selfishness and moral ambivalence. I do not recall all the evidence, but it is implied, (mostly in the Japanese translation) that Ranni's intentions in becoming Elden Lord and taking you as her consort are to FREE the Lands Between of the meddling of gods. Her thousand year journey into the cold dark is only going to be You and Her. She does this so that her position as Elden Lord (lady?) will prevent interference from other gods, due to her influence acting as a shield. However she will undergo this journey so that her own presence is also minimal. If the people of the Lands Between will know of her as their god, they will only know her as a cold and distant thing, far far away. Additionally, it is almost plainly evident that Astel is merely the final stage in a growth cycle of Falling Star beasts. They start off as a rocky, wingless, grounded beast, that eventually loses its protective covering as it grows, develops wings and ascends to its final stage, as an Astel. I see the Astels as aliens like the Alabaster lords. Perhaps meteorites are actually shards of Fallingstar eggs, and every now and then, a proper egg falls to earth and manages to properly gestate. But I do think that you are partially correct in regards to the themes relating to the sorcerers. I think the sorcerers draw parallels to the Byrgenwerth scholars in Bloodborne, relentlessly pursuing some kind of "ascension" or "grand knowledge" or whatever at the expense of everybody else. They surrender morality and ethics in this pursuit, experimenting and abusing countless victims to ascend higher and attain greater knowledge. position as Elden Lord (lady?) will prevent interference from other gods (and interference from her and your presence) and allow the people of the Lands Between to finally be able to live freely and without needing to worry about gods and stuff like that.
@@decoherant Interesting theory, but where do the falling star beasts fit into it? I could see that being the case if Astel was unique or had some other evidence pointing that way. There are two of them, plus all of the falling star beasts could be the larval forms of Astel, with the upside down hanging ant guys that shoot meteors at you being a middle stage in the metamorphosis.
Sellen says lusat is “nigh a child of the stars”, which seems to also confirm he was on the correct path of becoming a star whatever that is. Ironically by taking his body (and removing his brain) to become a graven school she probably halted this process
One little thing that came to my mind while watching this video : most of the words used to describe the Primeval Current and its offshoots are somewhat linked to water. "Current", "Rain", "Torrent", "Abyss", "School (like in school of fishes : maybe the Graven School minds swim in the Primeval Current like fishes)", "Flow", etc. I don't what to do with it, maybe it's just a stretch, maybe not, but the linguistic connections seem to be there. Maybe the Primeval Current is like the deep sea waters that birthed life on our planet, a sort of primeval, chaotic soup, much like what life in the Crucible must have been like before it became ordered.
Flowing water also has a big implication with Scarlet Rot, found near-ish to Astel. I might not be able to connect all these dots, but i can share the dots i find lol
@@scottbowers8841 I think the bridging link between these two concepts it's the Siofra river, there is evidence linking the blue dancer charm with it and after all its where the eternal city is found, which is also deeply linked to the stars
This is an unbelievably good deep dive into a foundational aspect of the game that exists alongside of - and is only tangentially linked to - the lineage of the bosses
I’d love a video on the greater will, because it seemed to me that the erdtree was the great tree drained of sap and bleached in gold, like it had a parasite inside of it. Then fighting the elden beast, you see countless trees, with presumably countless worlds the greater will established hegemony over. Turning the gift of the crucible into the curse of the omen. It seems like most people feel the greater will is sus, but don’t understand why.
I don't understand how a channel like this has only 200k subscribers. This is peak content on the internet, high quality stuff. Thanks for your work dude!
Can't say enough how much I appreciate these lore videos, you go into great detail on every subject, and take necessary tangents for subjects that they interconnect with. There are countless details and ideas that I think we all subtly pickup in our own playthroughs of the game, even if we don't really consciously think about them, but videos like this make them click and complete our understanding of them.
Do you think it's possible that Malenia's southward march was specifically targeting Radahn, as his arrestment of the stars held fates which would threaten the Erdtree, such as it being usurped by the Haligtree? If so, Malenia, hoping that releasing fate would bring about the nurture of the Haligtree under her brother's auspices, ignored Leyndell and zeroed on the Redmanes to kill Radahn, and it's why she bloomed into the scartlet aeonia and released the scarlet rot, which seems very much like a desperate move.
I suppose that _could_ be one of Malenia’s motives, but personally I doubt it. Remember, Malenia and Miquella were born of Marika and Radagon, i.e. a single god. As such, they have no connection to the Carian Royal Family, which really makes it unlikely that they would have spent much if any time learning about their astrological beliefs. I doubt Malenia was totally ignorant of the importance of the stars, but remember that her goals were essentially to seek a remedy to her and her brother’s curses and to assist him in his ascension to godhood. Neither of these is helped by freeing the stars. In fact, if anything it would create more potential resistance.
@@2yoyoyo1Unplugged I suppose that makes more sense. It’s worth pointing out that Malenia’s quest for a cure for her and her brother’s maladies were intrinsically related to the Haligtree, so if anything were to stand in the way of it’s development, they would endeavour to remove it.
@@2yoyoyo1Unplugged remember that the stars control fate. Why only the fate of the Carian royal family and astrologers? That's like saying I don't have a fate unless I suddenly decide to learn astrology. If the haligtrees growth was halted it could have been due to its ties to how it could greatly alter the fate of two Empryeans. Of course everything is speculation and I'm just voicing my doubts. Beyond these thoughts there's no reason to disagree with you.
I've always thought it very suspicious that the Mogwynn palace is basically directly under Radahn's castle. To what extent could Malenia track or sense her brother, did she think that Radahn had him when she just needed to go lower?
@@Loomx5 Ehhh not really. Miquella is Directly under the Heart/Swamp of Aeonia grace tho Where you fight Commander O Niall for the millicent questline (is it curious? idk maybe rot and blood could have something in common?). Theres also a huge tree there mishappen kind of like the Haligtree which i thought could be connected but nothing definitive. I dont think Caelid has much to do with him other than Malenia got defeated there so thats probably why Mohgwyn took him under there. Another cool thought is maybe Malenia went to caelid to find Miquella but was stopped by radahn either knowingly or unknowingly manipulated by Mohg but i dont think the timeline matches up either.
There's something else with the Amber Starlight as well. Eochid's Regalia. The amber hue of the blade is stated to be a conduit to move it by the will of the wielder alone. Will, amber stars commanding the fate of gods, the greater will... there's something there.
Something else to note is the Alabaster Lord's Sword, forged from "Golden-Hued Meteoric Ore" and "conceals gravity-manipulating magic." So there definitely is a separation and difference in amber starlight and blue starlight. Possibly a third, golden starlight? Unless this is a translation thing and gold/amber are one and the same.
I always assumed the thing Marika is hanging from is a fractured piece of the Elden Ring itself. I assumed so cuz of how much it resembles the rune arc and also it makes sense from a lore/mythology perspective
Aaah, hearing Gehrman, the First Hunter in the background gave me chills. That’s the same piece of music I listened to when looking up at the stars during my existential college days. Good times. Kinda.
I've being watching alot of elden ring lore content on youtube past weeks and it can tell hands down, you are the best in this segment. Much respect for the other creators but you just surpass them all with your videos and your own storytelling! Keep it up because your work is amazing.
I missed the Amber starlight questline the first time through but in my current playthrough I've really focused on the Moon and Stars oriented quests and characters. I too noticed that the amber starlight bears a striking resemblance to whatever is piercing the Marika/Radagon rebis. The implications of this could be monumental lore-wise but we just don't have enough information yet. DLC🤞
I believe the elden beast also has a crack in its belly in the same shape as the amber starlight. It might only be visible if you poise break the elden beast. Not quite sure.
@@MrNamenamenamename Now this I did not know. I thought it was just a golden crescent is strung the player up with. Does it really have the same color scheme as the shard?
These just keep getting better! Mad respect for the time and dedication it is definitely noticeable and really adds to the whole experience of a Fromsoft game. I don't have much or I'd be on your patreon but I just needed to at least thank you for making my love for this world grow.
Thops's Barrier teaches us one of the most important things about the study of the stars, which is that incantation and sorcery descent from the same origin. The life amber of the Erdtree is not so different from the life amber of the stars. And from the Elden Stars description we know that long ago a golden star was sent into the Lands Between.
Amazing video, I always figured that the primeval current and the crucible are actually the same thing. Given that in game it is described as both born of amber, different names for the ultimate power of creation.
i just realized a good reason for the suppression of primeval current research. if it brings them closer to the stars, theres a good likelyhood they may contact outer gods.
About the graven schools, you could possibly think of them as a sort of sorcery alternate to the magma wyrms, where humans are never meant to be or will ever be these beings and attempts to be so will only end in ruin/horrific transformation of the person’s form entirely.
Something you missed is in the room with the Graven Mass where you find the Staff of Master Azul, if you turn around and face the door you can see the portrait of the "mysterious" teacher that features on the Witch's Glinstone Crown. A portrait found all over the academy. A portrait, undoubtedly, of Sellen. This room saw something horrific happen, and is likely the very event that led to Sellen being exiled and pursued by Jerren.
@@lizzyverdiflor8807 I am disappointed.. But she so nice to us though.. :( I refuse to believe she would kill solely to further her research. I'm like Thops lol.
@@dogemaester Don't worry, they're still technically 'alive'. I actually like her a bit better now, her obsession is very human, and while the ones who can't understand her see her as a scourge, I think she saw herself as noble and 'better than everyone™'. I still like her a character.
@@lizzyverdiflor8807 To be honest though, I think she's better off dead than be stuck in this form. I like the way you describe her though haha. Another thing that bugs is why her portrait is still hung in the Debate Parlor, where you fight Red Wolf of Radagon. If she was exiled, then why are they still respecting her, while there's no paintings of Azur or Lusat or is there?
I would've liked to hear your take on Pidia when discussing Seluvis. There's a theory that Pidia was the real puppet master and Seluvis was only his puppet. Alternatively, and my favored theory is the Seluvis we meet at Three Sisters is puppet controlled by Seluvis remotely much in the same way Sellen willingly keeps a puppet body as a backup and that after his Amber Drought scheme failed he severed the connection to his puppet at Three Sisters and had the puppets murder Pidia who was his henchman to tie up loose ends and loose lips.
I hadn't thought of that second concept. I feel like it makes sense considering there's no sign of an attack on Seluvis's puppet body, which youd think wouldve happened if his betrayal was discovered or the Black Knives came for him like the others, but there's nothing. That, and there's no clear reason why the puppets turned on Pidia, so his usefulness reaching an end makes sense. Seluvis isn't as smart as he thinks he is, but there's no way he would be shortsighted enough to not have an easy out.
there are 2 versions of his mask also. seems he keeps puppets of himself to remain hidden. he also tries feverishly to manipulate others likely in an attempt to replace them with puppets under his control. mayhaps we are a puppet of his this entire journey.
Starting off the video without an intro but with whispered quotes of the characters being talked about with no background music just sounds so alluring and intimate.
i think the speculation of the spear in marika being a amber starlight shard could be very much true! radagon studied glintstone when he married rennala, and must have studied astrology as extension as well.
Your videos have quickly become the most interesting lore content on youtube! The connections you make are so interesting, looking forward to the Nox episode
This video is really fascinating one small note thou : Aren’t we gonna discuss Pidia´s case ? He seems to be the true pupeeter of Seluvis, is killed after Seluvis little scheme is uncovered by Ranni, worked for the carrian familly AND sells you a map telling you to follow the place where amber stars are falling ? No way this is a coincidence after everything you demonstrated ^^
I saw a video on that theory and it blew my mind. Because 1) it connected (I believe it is 100% correct), but also 2) shows the staggering amount of detail FromSoft has created. This is unlike any game I can recall in memory, where so much is going on and yet the game refuses to hold your hand. Elden Ring feels like a fantasy novel adapted into a game.
This is awesome. One of my new favorite pieces of Elden Ring lore. I love that they explain how sorcery works and that it doesn't "just exist" in the world. FromSoft went pretty wild with the lore in this game in terms of scope. It's confusing and complex, but damn does it have some amazing ideas.
They have different methods of delivering lore content. Smough reports and explains the information in an objective manner like a historian. Vaati weaves the information into an empathetic story like a bard or play write.
I’m wondering if there is more to Iji’s connection to Sellen other than the Carian one maybe something more personal. It seems as though he put out the hit on her “Finally, we can be rid of a longstanding Carian weed” Full dialogue from Iji about Jerren: “Now the festival is over, and General Radahn is defeated... Jerren's duties are finally fulfilled. Though we served different masters, I could see he was truly adept in his role. Now the time has come to remind him of an old promise made. With the starts of fate set into motion, a certain sorceress is dispossessed of her immortality... Finally, we can be rid of a longstanding Carian weed...”
This was SO good, I think an interesting parallel between seeing the void/current and seeing the frenzied flame could be made, in that they both produce an extreme change in the way the world is conceptualised (opposing the golden order, the primary structure of the lands between) and how this realisation has an instant mental and physical effect on those who actually manage to glimpse at something beyond the golden orders dogma, it makes the major theme of the game seem more like how the world is understood, rather than what should happen in the world, it’s so interesting to think about, thankyou for this vid keep it up!
Source: Made it up , one of the few things that would remotely correspond to this is the early attribution of daemonic powers to the planets. The Matthean Our Father in both Greek and Latin texts show no reference to Saturn, but rather just the concept of evil itself
@@MrFRNTIK What? Venus is *the* morning star usually not Saturn. OP and This comment section seems to be misinformation. We need more sources that's actually reliable because this stuff is interesting. Whether it's true or false.
This is the science lore I've been waiting for. As somebody desiring to merge my physiology with technology I can't help but note similar themes among radical sorcerers like Sellen and Azur in merging their bodies with Glintstone. This process enables them to experience and observe the affect of their communion with pure magical essence firsthand; why wield magic when they can become magic? Seeing Primeval Sorcerer Azur for the first time I was enamored with his look. I dig the deep analysis into Glintstone lore. Cheers for tackling such a unique topic.
Another curious thing, could be reused assets, but Luscat’s glintstone crown is eerily similar to the envoys hat. We can’t know if they shaped those crystals but he did for sure wrap them himself in the same fashion as opposed to a different wrapping. Astrologers read fates from start and envoys supposedly read the future to an extent. Maybe luscat took inspiration from them?
interesting how the failure of the graven schools is implied to not be something technical but rather that human souls cannot handle such a state or such visions (since even the most learned masters Azur and Lusat just barely recovered a single sorcery before lapsing into stony silence). If they still had their faculties they would tell their "young" ambitious protege of the horror that is the perception of the primeval current, but since she spent her time making ambush shards instead of true scholarship she eagerly locked herself into that eternal prison I also wonder if Astel was borne of their earthly meddling, given she is basically a perverse version of the elden beast with a human skull
I just want to say I'm happy and impressed at how interesting, important and diverse Sorcery, and those who use it, have been done in this game. I'm not sure that magic has been done this well before in their games.
Thank you for your videos, I’ve been so hungry to learn more about the connections between things in this game, seeing things from additional angles. I hadn’t thought about the specific color of Marika’a ‘cross’ but you’re right that it’s a match. Is there ever a time in one of the endings/cinematics that their body/what’s left takes on any semblance of the ‘puppet’ posture? Perhaps part of joining with Radagon (or whatever they did/are) was to still have some kind of agency if ‘her’ fate specifically was arrested-maybe the Radagon soul would still be able to act even if she wasn’t. Super speculation, but wouldn’t have even thought about it if it weren’t for this video :)
Not sure if it is just because I am hungry. But at one point it sounded like you said "Primeval Curry" 😂 great video as always. Been holding off on watching these until I had a good understanding of the broad strokes of the story from playing the game. I love all the connections you find. Always excellent!
Is it possible that all the outer Gods have real world inspiration or represent real religions? Ranni is blue with multiple arms, which is a pretty iconic depiction of Shiva. The Golden Order is held up by a crucified Marika, we all know what religion is associated with crosses. The formless mother is a blood God, which happens to align with Aztec mass sacrifice to keep the blood flowing so the sun rises and rains come. She even rains burning blood down (the sun is burning, the blood is raining) GRR Martin is known for using real events and then fictionalizing them. The Lannisters and Starks are the Lancasters and Yorks from the War of the Roses. I'm not saying they are supposed to BE those deities, just that their aspects in Elden Ring are borrowing those aspects or representing those aspects.
That is very plausible, I've always looked at the way marika was hung and thought it was very christ-like. The real question, however, is so? As in, so what if they are inspired by real world religions - do we learn anything else about the lore if we dive deeper into those religions? If or when someone does indeed do that, this link is just a look at something that could have just potentially influenced RR
@@yes1667 I think there could definitely be something to this. I don't know enough about Hinduism or whatever we call the Aztec religion, but the reveal about Marika and Radagon being different aspects of the same entity definitely has some "Holy Trinity" vibes. Them being opposed to each other regarding the shattering of the Elden Ring and likely holding different views on what it meant to follow the Golden Order immediately made me think of the Protestant/Catholic schism in the 1500s.
Certainly. Some inspirations I can think of Radagon and his children with Rennala, are inspired by Loki, Angrboða and 2 of their 3 children Jörmungandr, Hel. Radagon has red hair and is cursed or related to the giants, Rykard has become a giant serpent who seeks to devour the gods, Ranni is half dead like Hel. Hel is described as half blue and half flesh-coloured and as having a gloomy, downcast appearance. Radahn doesn't seem to be inspired by Fenrir, though in Ragnarök Fenrir sons well swallow the son and moon, well the stars will disappear from the sky.
In aztec religion, a hero sacrifices themselves to light the sun in a cyclical ritual that happens right after the sun "dies", which is dark souls p much so if this turns out to be true id reckon miyazaki was already borrowing a bit.
Notice that the Finger Slaying Blade looks just like the Elden Beasts' Relic Blade but curved, Is it possible that it too was made out of a lord of some sort? Also: Speaking of Translations, Are the Onyx Lords connected to the Darkness of the void in the JP version? We know they come from space but do they come from the same place as Astel or somewhere different?
Thanks for this video, it's actually a good look into something people aren't really talking about from what I've seen, and I've wondered about since the game came out!
On Marika's crucifixion stake: I always took it to be a giant Rune Arc, personally. Similar shape, similar colour, they even have similar sparkles of golden light coming off of them.
Huh! Incredibly interesting video Your comments about the amber starlight shard especially have me wondering if that isn't... maybe the same substance as the Elden Ring itself?? With either the shard being a broken off piece of the Elden Beast or another creature like it, OR that the runes that make up the Elden Ring/Beast were forged together from Amber Starlight by the Greater Will Maybe that's even the material Radagon used to create the amber egg and Rune of the Unborn
Yes most likely the Elden Ring is made up of amber starstuff since it is basically a synthesized pattern of fate: The Golden Order. The Greater Will comes from the stars but it is trying to monopolize the power found in the Lands Between for itself, keeping out other gods and astral influences. Edit: Also remember that Renalla doesn't have her own greater rune but the egg acts as a SUBSTITUTE for one. This makes a lot of sense if they're actually both made of the same substance. Renalla's doesn't have the ordered form of a rune (a fate of sorts) which may be why she is treated as a kind of counterfeit demigod.
I love hearing lore quips about the graven schools and exposing the eldritch horror of it, when it's very clear that it's simultaneously just a very elaborate Katamari Damacy reference XD
The Elden Ring (and thus the Elden Best and Runes) could be a certain kind of star or starlight shard. If stars can command and control fate, it would explain how the Elden Ring has the power to basically set the "rules" for how the Lands Between work. Its such a large and powerful chunk of stars that it commands the fate of the entire land. It would also explain why the Rune of Death is also called "Destined Death." It controls who is fated (or destined) to die, when, and how. When it is removed from the Elden Ring that rule is basically turned off and no one truly dies.
Amazing theory. I never made that connection. Maybe the outer gods are in relation the same but on an Eldritch level of existence? The elden beast and fingers being minor stars or peices of a greater whole sent into the lands between as a proxy because their greater true form can't be conceptualized on their level. This is why they choose empyreans (people with the ability to ascend to God hood or become a "Star" but on a rather basic reasonable level. Kinda like how in the Bible God's true form kill mortal beings, but the angels act as a proxy with his son Jesus being a more direct physical manifestation.
@@dtk1981 yeah at the very least that seems to be what an Empyrean is: a being (besides the two or three fingers) that has an innate potential commune directly with an outer god. Mohg seems to think that Miquella could commune with the Formless Mother and Malenia seems to (unwillingly since birth) commune with the outer god of rot, so I don’t think empyrean is just a Greater Will thing. Also Rani may be communing with the moon outer god (if there is such a thing). And maybe the Fire Giant might be basically an empyrean for the Fell God. The Frenzied Flame seems to act more directly. You aren’t an empyrean so in the frenzied flame ending you can’t fully contain it’s manifestation and your head explodes (and other followers of the frenzied flame have obviously glamming eyes while followers of the formless mother and the tarnished have much more subtle red and gold eyes respectively.) Edit: Typos
Fun idea: alberich is a primeval sorceror, instead of gazing at the stars he looked at the bloodstar and was consumed by its magic, it;s why we find his armor covered in red crystals and his dead body in roundtable hold, looking at the sky
Big shoutout to Adam Barker who took the free cam footage for this video. Check out his pvp content: th-cam.com/users/AdamBarkerThe
Also huge thanks to Shimhaq who is the talent behind the art commissioned for the thumbnail: twitter.com/shimhaq?s=21&t=JxXVanXLp1eEM7QVoTTodw
the astel translations were most likely done the way they are to keep it related to space rather than some darkness like the abyss in dark souls
Theory: The Dark Moon is a gigantic Graven Mass made by the Eternal City by combining the heads of primeval sorcerers with glintstone. This gigantic Graven Mass successfully ascended the sky and became an outer god with a collective consciousness. Ranni wants to join this Graven Mass to become part of it, this is why she left the Lands Between in the Age of the Stars ending.
@@keith964 how does she come back then? It's not like you can unfuse yourself from one of these glimstone monstrosities at will. Interesting theory tho.
There's lots of indications that Sellia is allied with the Eternal cities, or at least have a degree of Nox influence inside their walls. The Night sorceries, the fact that they're located right above an Eternal city, and the mini boss fight we have with two Nox maidens. Could this also be the real reason Radahn challenged the stars? Holding Sellia secure might mean holding it secure from further Nox influence, since the stars that fell down to the Lands Between after his death doesn't really threaten Sellia at all.
@@asianfidance2224 it also has a chair
If you neglect to tell Sellen about the location of Lusat, her quest continues to Raya Lucaria and she will continue to stay in the middle of the room untransformed, asking you for the location of Lusat. It's only when you tell her, that she finally transforms. For me this cements the fact that she indeed transformed herself into a graven mass with Azur and Lusat's bodies
Clearly didn't work out. But Azur and Lustat were on another level compared to her. Azur and Lustat were like Super Saiyan Blue, or even Perfected Ultra Instinct. For all her infamy Sellen was nowhere near them. If she had been, maybe it would have worked. She was riding on the coat tails of true masters.
Interesting.
Wonder if it was worth turning herself into a vegetable lol.
Maybe it's a bit like transcendence in Bloodborne, where it can be intoxicating and invigorating.
But she can't move or speak properly... for some reason.
@Jake_ From_State
I once made the joke that Sellen just kicked the door down, strolled up to Renala, yoinked her amber egg and tossed it out the window.
Followed immediately by Renala yeeting herself out after it.
She went missing for hours.
No search party was sent.
@Jake_ From_State actually, renala did not disappear. when sellen is standing in the room, if you search the room, you'll find renala in the back hiding
@Jake_ From_State yes
10:06 It's worth noting that you cannot open the chest containing the Fingerslayer Blade until you have talked to Ranni in her rise and entered into her service. Trying to do so displays a message saying: "You are not destined to open this." Even though Ranni's fate has been released and Nokron made accessible, the fact that you are not in her service means that Fate still blocks you. As a Tarnished, we have no Fate, as discussed in the video, but we are allowed to at least hold the Fingerslayer Blade while in her service. It's interesting to see that Fate has strict rules and can be worked around in this way.
Reminds me of the fae in Kingdoms of Amalur, where they are bound to live out the events of a set story that they can’t directly change.
I tried salvaging rRogiers life this way and was sad to see it say "you are not destined for this blade".
the tarnished's fate is to roam the land become stronger and return to the lands between to attempt to become elden lord... like that's the whole point of the game lol.
@@epiccthulu It wasn't just the fae, they were only the most aware of the fact. All people were bound by fate in that game, except of course, for you and everyone you touched.
@@TheSuperRatt technically. We're also still bound to fate, anything that the game limits us to do, is part of fate limiting us. Which would be a really good excuse as to why I CANT SAVE BLAIDD AND IJI FROMSOFT WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY
Marika's crucifixion stake being an amber starlight shard is just too perfect, well thought of you!
Yeah that was definitely interesting.
People who don't understand why Fromsoftwares implicit story telling is good, also don't understand we enjoy watching hours upon hours of lore videos! Not only do these videos have a lot more information and hit way harder than a 1 minute cutscene, but the community involvement is amazing! Thanks for doing what you do Smough!
You are most welcome! I was excited to do this one
The way they tell the story wouldn't have worked if the story wasn't absolutely top tier tho , would you disagree ?
@@mazevlad2263 plenty of other souls likes have tried an most have failed for that reason
What's always blown my mind is the way they layer their stories. A player can play this game and not care about the story at all. They can also play and simply understand basic concepts like we are traversing a broken world and collecting pieces of the elden ring by defeating demi-god bosses in order to ultimately become the new elden lord. They can go one step further and look into the lore of the NPCs they see in game. Then they can even go a step further and delve into the timeline/events and where the NPCs fit in to them. At the end of all that they can still start to look into understanding the concepts and the inner workings of the world in-game such as glintstone, puppetry, the primeval current, the crucible, curses, outer god motivations, the connection between fungus and the scarlet rot, fate, unalloyed gold, etc etc. There are so many layers of understanding built into these games and its an absolute joy to discover. I've had so many "Aha!" moments when connections are made between NPCs, events, factions, and concepts in this game. Bloodborne/Dark Souls will always have a special place in my heart but Elden Ring lore is a culmination of what Fromsoft has learned when crafting these worlds and they definitely keep getting better.
@@SmoughTown Yeah seriously man your videos are top tier, love diving this deep with ya
I get the impression that the tonic didn't work on Ranni because she has no actual body to intoxicate.
Makes it really funny that Selivus would overlook such an obvious detail
Be funny if she noted it aloud. Like "You... are aware this is a false body?"
I wonder if selivus made Renna into a doll and that’s the doll that Ranni eventually inhabits.
@@nointroAjajajja, selvius just wants his doll back, man. He's a lonely man. xD
@@nointro Most Likely not. Renna was a powerful witch that directly inspired Ranni. If seluvis got to the point of controlling someone that powerful he wouldn't give it away.
@@fatty1040 renna aka snow witch aka the gloam-eyed queen aka melina
I think it’s interesting that Lusat’s head looks very similar to Astel’s eye. He may well have been on the right path to becoming a star.
Fun idea a friend told me; the idea that Seluvis was ALWAYS a puppet, from the moment we meet him, controlled by Pidia. Seluvis enters his "Puppet Position" at the same time that Pidia's soldier puppets kill him. Pidia has the puppet reward that is otherwise given to us if we give Nepheli the puppet potion. Seluvis also seems to not understand the difference between two different people, as he acts as though Dung Eater is Nepheli when he is given the potion instead, prehaps a sign that he is a mere puppet, controlled by Pidia? Just an idea.
Added to this a little detail I've accidentally fallen on him from his second story and he releases the same little sparks that your summons do when hit
@@julianisenbarg932 whoa what really? I have to launch the game real quick right now and throw myself off his ladder to test this.
When you accidentally stopped all fates of gods and men just so you can still ride your aging horse. Radahn is just built different.
Accidentally? Maybe he knew much more than we are led to believe, he was taught by an alien, he could have been altered by cherry picking stars / horrors into the land between and defeating them himself, maybe that's why he so huge, dna alteration, scourged by the stars, he was messing with something taboo. He became the one who holds everyones fate in his hands, he was tring to become a god, I reckon he could have rivaled the gods easily in full power, he tanked an Empyrean nuke and survived, he was all about study of the stars...Definitely dangerous to any order if left unchecked
it says there are 2 replies but i can only see one. help?
@@Tower-kn1dr it means you blocked those people and can not see their response.
@@budakiel6450 but i didnt block anyone.
@@Tower-kn1dr 3 weeks late, probably a bot that got its comment removed/banned. There's been a real uptick of bots spamming links recently, and while some get through some end up getting banned, however while their reply is invisible it is still counted as a reply that was made just now you can't see it. That's also why sometimes you'll now find a comment that say it has a reply but nothing shows up.
Jerren's relationship with the Carian royal family is further elaborated him if you talk to him before the festival is active, but only after you join Ranni's group. He mentions that beating Radahn can unlock Ranni's fate, and muses about how Iji is faring. Once you talk to Iji, he realizes the implications of Radahn stopping the stars and you can tell Blaidd as an alternative way of proceeding with Ranni's questline.
If you do this, Iji also mentions afterwards that now that fate has resumed, Sellen is deprived of her immortality, meaning that Jerren is not only free of his promise to Radahn, but also free to kill her.
Wow, really? How do you do that, out of curiosity? I thought joining Ranni’s group triggers the Festival anyways? Or is there a step in the Ranni quest that triggers it?
@@TheStruggler-wb7mk it triggers after talking to Sellen and then to Blaidd, but you can go into the castle before that
@@TheStruggler-wb7mk if you step onto altus plateau at all it also activates
Sad, I really liked Sellen. Her "farewell" and encouragement about you becoming an Elden Lord was pretty unique. Hopefully the graven school is some sort of cocoon-like metamorphosis form, like Astel has, and with time they would find what they wanted, even if it seems unlikely.
Or maybe we can reach into her graven school and pull out Sellen's primeval current, transfer her to a new body again, and save her from her fate.
It's possible she could be pulled out of her horrid state, but I somewhat doubt it. Certainly a sorcerous protagonist with all the time in the world on their hands could poke about graven schools to see if you can unravel them without killing everyone inside, but whether or not that happens is likely down to head canon more that anything.
41:48 might be worth noting that Rennala never left that room. When Sellen is there, Rennala can be found right behind one of bookshelves. I thought that was kinda neat.
Just spitballing a fun train of thought: The contention between primeval sorcerers and those of the other conspectuses (idk how that would be pluralized?) made me think of the separation between subfields of physics in our world. As you were speculating on what the primeval current is, and its connection to the Void and the birth of stars, I wondered if primeval sorcery might be analogous to particle physics.
Particle physicists study the fundamental subatomic units of our universe, in order to understand how governing laws such as mass and gravity come about. Primeval sorcerers study glintstone as units of cosmic life, perhaps getting at how the divine Outer Gods may all originate from the same fundamental phenomena. Many particle physics experiments, in some way, seek to create a mini Big Bang by smashing together particles in an accelerator. Maybe primeval sorceries are doing something similar by creating a tiny sample of the primeval current in the mortal world: a glimpse into a primordial state of the cosmos when the primeval current was all-encompassing, not distantly operating in the Void.
Also funny to me to think about how people were freaking out when the particle physicists at CERN were starting up the Large Hadron Collider's experiments. How they'd end up making a black hole that would consume the planet or something. Our own cosmos are already horrifyingly eldritch and incomprehensible.
*Quantum* Physics, specifically. And of course Quantum Woo
I mean, if I opened a portal to the blood realm I think you'd be concerned.
Same logic for black holes, especially since space is so eldritch.
Your conclusion about The Void being the birth place of the stars is really interesting. Maybe it's a stretch, but i will take a step further and say that The Void is the birth place of all celestial bodies: meteorites, comets, stars etc.
So, by using glintstone sorcery, you would be actually sort of giving birth to a new celestial body, be it a comet (Comet Azur), a small comet (Glintstone Pebble), a meteor (Meteorite) or a cluster of stars(Stars of Ruin). Also, the Meteorite spell literally says that you call meteorites from "The Void".
I believe the void is a celestial crucible. When I hear the term "primeval current" I think about a river, a primeval river, a celestial river that carrys all things from a celestial crucible. The movement of the stars is this primeval current, since they all move in accordance with the flowing of the river. But perhaps with time this river spills into smaller rivers, such that the astrologers could no longer glimpse the original, the primeval current. Sellen and her contemporaries tap into this flow of energy and, like following a river, eventually arrive at its origin, the void, the celestial crucible.
It sounds similar to a star nebula
@@level1dodo896 Indeed
meteorite is a gravity spell though so dont create it grabs
I'm gonna be honest, I've held vaati as the standard for lore videos since he started, buuut... He isn't really making them anymore ("secrets" videos don't count), and your content is amazing.
A new contender has emerged.
There can be only one!
What a compliment ♥️thank you so much
Your nit the only one whos noticed. Was so excited when he finally released a lore video, but nothing but "secret" videos lately. Hope the guy does what he wants but IV stopped checking his channel. If he ever finds unique lore in sure I'll watch but seems like there others like our boy here picking up vaatis slack.
@@SmoughTown Comparing to Vaati, I truly love how you go into a lot more details. To criticize though, Vaati tries a lot to be poetic in his writing throughout the video. I'm definitely NOT saying that you should do that though. I'm just saying that's something that I love about Vaati's work.
Vaati should just stick to community projects like the art contests.
Theory - Perhaps the reason the Golden Order came down so hard on astrologers, was because they saw astrology as a threat to their power. When fate is determined by something else, the ones in power feel threatened. It's possible they may have even seen the downfall of the Order in the stars? If so, then Radahn freezing the stars - denying the progress of fate - makes a lot of sense for one devoted to the Order. With the Primeval Current so closely tied to the stars and fate, it is no wonder those who wanted to restore it were persecuted.
Honestly one of the best stories and NPC of Elden ring. Loved Sellen’s quest line. The graven schools are my favorite enemies just for how simple they are, yet they tell you everything about them in one look.
agreed, absolutely chilling
I think it's interesting to note that Lustat's glintstone crown is similar in both shape and color to the large eye of in the skull of Astel.
Smough, you have quickly solidified yourself as my favorite Elden Ring Creator.
Excited to see what other content and games you plan to cover in the future.
Thanks for doing what you do, my friend.
That means so much to hear. Thank you so Much
So the Carian Royals were the best astronomers, they gazed at the stars, mapped the stars, you can picture them mapping all astrological bodies and their orbits. Including falling stars. They would have knowledge of their orbital paths and they would be the only ones with the knowledge of say potential impacts and exactly where said impacts would happen. So they could see into the future in this way, and they would have known if one falling star might one day impact near a certain hidden city.. that would allow Ranni to progress her destiny against the Golden Order. But here comes Raddahn, with his study of gravity magic to stop, to arrest all these orbiting bodies, he stops any possibility of a falling star from impacting and opening the way to the eternal city, therefore hindering any attempt to thwart the Golden Order. We know this because the second the General dies and his gravity magic dispels all the falling stars he personally has stopped all at once begin their descents. Here is a physical scientific means for the Carians to be able to “see into the future” and see “destinies” with actual study of orbits and the stars, and other astrological bodies.
The stars were summoned. The void, the moon, and the greater will all send meteorites containing their will to the lands between.
@@Miriam_J_ i feel as if the definitive evidence of rykard and radahn being close is that there’s a painting of him at volcano manor is a bit of a stretch, although i could see it, rykard is said to have personally helped in ranni’s scheme to do the whole godwyn death thing which would help ranni’s destiny so i don’t think they would’ve been that close if radahn puts her whole destiny to a halt. also is malenia fighting for the golden order? she seems to be 100% loyal to miquella and while he did help radagon with that stuff he ended up rejecting it all for his own unalloyed deal so melanie would’ve followed suit right? feel free to correct me on anything because i have a feeling i could’ve messed up some stuff but these are just my thoughts on that
@@saintsfearful Yeah it seems there is a "damned if you do and damned if you don't" situation in The Lands Between. Kill Radahn and overthrow the Golden Order and there is potentially a huge power vacuum and the Lands Between is basically under constant threat of alien invasion (which is already a minor problem. Even with Radahn alive the occasional Fallingstar beast still makes it through and of course the Frenzied Flame, Formless Mother, the Moon, etc. are trying to establish a foothold). Don't do that and you remain under the thumb of the Greater Will.
Well put together, now I only need to figure out, why Radahn did fix the stars in place... still not sure why he did that.
@@i-eat-moss good point, do we know why Malenia challenged Radahn? I can't find a good reason in the lore. She wasn't interested in becoming elden Lord, so claiming Radahns great rune couldn't be the reason.
Incredible video. At the moment I believe you are the best lore story-teller in the Elden Ring series.
One note is that most speculation is that Selivus is a puppet and is controlled by Pidia. At the end of his questline you can hear pidia begging for his life as he is killed by his own puppets.
Selivus was just another one of Pidiaa victims. And I believe Ranni was aware of this as the puppets probably kill him but by order of Ranni.
Thank you so much, what a compliment
And yet, from what I've seen, Pidia's death does not affect Seluvis. However, killing Seluvis does lead to the puppets murdering Pidia.
@@RoyalMudcrab I have not seen or tried that personally. But if that is the case, then its definitely a mystery what the actual correlation between them is. I will go and try it out now.
@@colorpg152 I guess maybe with some incantation/sorcery AOEs that could go through a wall and kill him?
Already commented once lol, but taking some time to really let it sink in, I've had some additional thoughts
Specifically, I think it's interesting that while everybody makes such a distinction between sorceries and incantations, ultimately the source of incantations is just another creature sent down from the stars. In fact, if Hyetta is to be believed, all forms of life, star or god or whatever, were once part of the same being
Which kind of makes sense if you look at color schemes for magic in Elden Ring. The different kinds/sources of magic each seem to have their own distinct color. Red for the flame of ruin, orange for the frenzied flame, yellow for the greater will, green for most glintstone, blue for the moon, indigo for gravity, etc etc
It's almost like it all used to be one pure white current of energy that emerged from the darkness of the abyss and, somewhere along the way, passed through a prism that divided it into these distinct aspects. Aspects with not only their own magical properties, but with their own personalities and goals and desires
I wonder if the graven mass at the Raya Lucaria tower was a success, because it is lifeless, but there are stars in the room, and I wonder if that has something to do with the underground cities making their own sky.
Also, I wonder if Ranni was chosen as an empyrean by the two fingers to bind her fate because she was meant to bring about the age of stars, but would be unable to if she was an empyrean for the greater will.
I know Nokron at least has those big masses of petrified people seemingly praying/begging all over the buildings.
Maybe the city robbed of a sky prayed for a new one at the cost of themselves?
@@MrCeratix I can't think of anything worse than having your physical body sacrificed to become new celestial bodies destined to watch over your own corpse for eternity.
What I'm getting at is if everyone has 2 bodies in ER (physical and spiritual), sacrificing one to a god isn't unheard of. The fire giant sacrifices his flesh for power, I can see that happening in the eternal city.
Another near 1 hour lore video to enjoy over the weekend. Cant wait. Your content has been an absolute treat, and fine addition to the Elden Ring community. Thank you!
My pleasure Simon, and thanks for your support
There’s also Mad Tongue Alberich, who is associated with the red primeval current. What’s really strange about Alberich is that they’re tarnished, which implies they went to lands far away and were called back by long lost grace. Altering Alberich’s hat reveals that they also had part of their head replaced with red glintstone. There are only two spells associated with red glintstone, the briars of punishment and briars of sin, which are used by thorn-fire sorcerers throughout the lands between. This red glintstone sorcery is powered by blood sacrifices, which was also used to create the stones on Alberich’s robe. Too bad those spells kind of stink, but the armour set is nice.
lol expected a lore related conclusions and hit was hit with facts instead.
The fact that Sellen seems to retrieve the bodies of lusat and azur but their armor is left behind, makes me think that one possible reason her graven school failed was because she didn't realize their helms were actually the seat of their consciousness. She thought they were just regalia, and discarded them in favor of what was left of their human bodies. And so they were never truly incorporated into her graven school
I agree, it was said that the glintstone helmet’s replaced their brain and shit like that so what ur saying makes sense
Dude your narration and research is getting better every video.
100k by the end of the year guaranteed
Thanks for your support as always dude! Fingers crossed ♥️
I expected this content from Vaati, but you're on that grind. Respect
Vaati has a very important role in the community, I I probably wouldn't have ever played souls games if his videos didn't get me interested in them, and also solidified my interest in the lore of these games.
But ma boy smoughtown is the king of lore deep dives right now. what some may cover in 20min, he is able to fill an entire hour with amazing and Accurate info, and still manages to make it entertaining to listen to. Speculation is labeled as such, but also given evidence directly from the game. A++
Thank you Lloyd
Vaati isn't making the kind of content he once was. The quality has significantly dropped.
I will always have respect for him as he is a progenitor of the lore community that we have today. So it's sad to see him become so cookie cutter.
Luckily, we have guys like Smough to take up the mantle who produce incredible content.
@@river7874 I don't doubt that in depth vaati lore videos will come, I don't think he ever puts those out right away, hell, he was making new Bloodborne and ds3 lore videos for 4+ years. I don't think he was ever first to make videos on specific lore topics. This seems par for the course for most releases, lot of tips and secrets lists right after a game release. Not my favorite content, but I have learned a few things from them, so I'll give him that.
@@river7874
Vaati focuses more on narrating the lore as if it were a story over reporting and organizing the information like Smough does. Smough is a historian reporting his findings in an objective manner so that we can understand the events, vernacular, and politics of the game. Vaati is a bard/ play writer weaving a narrative that helps us empathize with the characters, understand their motivations, and weep at their tragedies. Plot vs Story.
I just wanna say that it's been great seeing your content continually improve over time. Not just production, quality and information but your skill as a storyteller. Hour long videos feel like they're over way too fast and that's a remarkable quality. Thanks for the content my friend.
Thanks loris! Much appreciated 🤯
I agree completely.
🙇♂️
I think Sellen is happy in her final form. After all...
Glintstones! Meet the Glintstones! They're a part of a Graven Family!
YABADABA DOOOOOO
One thing I find particularly interesting about the proximity of the areas around both full grown Astel and their two larval forms is that they are areas where Frenzy and Rot have precedence. In Ainsel and Yelough Anix we see Miranda Flowers and Trolls with Madness, and obviously we've got the Cloyster.
I'm not saying that the Astel are sent by these Outer Gods, but that they end up exerting their influence through them. The relation both indirect and opportunistic.
I can't quite put that one together. Malenia is implied to be influenced by an outer god of scarlet rot, such that she has become a "goddess of rot" (at least in relation to being worshipped by the kindred). This power could also be passed to others, as we see in Millicent's questline. The unnamed outer god of rot is said to be sealed away and is being worshipped by the kindred of rot at the Grand Cloister near the Lake of Rot. This would almost suggest that from the Grand Cloister you would be able to reach where this outer god of rot is sealed away, but the path from there leads only to Astel, a being of the stars with no power over rot, no clear connection to rot, to the kindred or to Malenia.
The other place you find Astel is in the Yelough Anix Tunnel. The nearby ruins which share the name are infested with creatures touched by the Frenzied Flame, but the tunnel is a frozen mine containing both Onyx & Alabaster lords, the visitors from the stars who are possibly enemies of Astel & other star creatures like Fallingstar Beasts. You can also find one of these in the Lake of Rot near the Cloister.
@@mediumvillain There is nothing to suggest the Lords are enemies of Astel, they are beings that were awakened by the influence of meteors, and there's nothing else to suggest their alliances. You just fan ficed that. Astel and Fallingstars are beasts that fall within the meteors/stars, terms that the game uses interchangeably. In a way, they are the meteors.
And I beg of you to read, I said the relation to them is indirect and opportunistic. Your first paragraph is utterly meaningless to what I said.
I would not be surprised if outer gods sent Astel, or at least were able to influence where they landed. The Eternal City is accused of 'high treason', the proof of which is a weapon that can harm the Greater Will itself, and is then destroyed by Astel? Seems too good to be a coincidence.
The outer gods aren't hiding the fact that they have the audacity to step on each other's toes. Marikas empyrean children,save Melina, are outright born tampered with the influence of other outer gods trying to snake their way into having their own minor God to control as the head of their rule over the lands between. Don't know who's messing with Miquella, but Melania is infected by the outer goddess of rot and Ranni as a Carian Royal already has ties to the outer Moon God.
Well, if the Astels are stars then it makes sense that outer gods sent them, or at least that they can. The elden beast was once a “golden star” according to elden stars. Astel’s remembrance does say that he once took away an eternal cities sky, and we know the nox were banished underground to a false sky by the greater will. Perhaps the astels/stars were the mechanism by which that was done.
Very cool analysis! Also, a detail I noticed: Astel actually has an eye, you can see it moving around in their skull during the boss fight. Moreover, Lusat’s crown jewel is eerily similar to the eye of Astel…
Lusat may have joined himself with a God from the void having it take on some of his traits and borrowing his crown as a way to stay tethered to our realm.
It seems to me like a recurring theme for all the sorcerous characters is selfishness or moral ambivalence. Sellen is willing to experiment on her fellow sorcerers, trapping their souls in a state of inhuman, bodiless torment to further her goals, and as Smough points out, her mentors seem to have done the same. Selivus steals the bodies and fates of others for his own amusement and use and even Rani's ultimate plan is to ascend into a godhood that will benefit her and her consort, but leave everyone else, even her closest allies and servants to rot.
Astel's fractured skull, reminiscent of the insight-bearing skulls of Bloodborne, but filled with an immense glintstone eye where a brain should be does indeed suggest that he might be a sorcerer who managed to be born as a star, though he is malformed, just as the graven schools are all failed experiments. In time, Rani's fate might well be similar, unless she can perfect the power of the stars.
When we hear that Astel did not merely destroy an eternal city but took away their sky, this is the bit that ties him together with that same selfish mindset for me. Astel was once a sorcerer who yearned to be a star, but when his rebirth was only partially successful, he became a void-borne being of unending hunger and need, thoughtlessly pursuing a connection to the birthplace of the stars he will never reach. In his own pursuit of the primeval current, he was called to the Lands between by the Nox in their attempts to birth or summon a Lord of Stars and consumed the stars of the Eternal City's false sky in a futile attempt to attain the void that was always out of reach, heedless of the destruction he wrought on the mortals and their city.
@@decoherant Ranni, I think, is not motivated by selfishness and moral ambivalence. I do not recall all the evidence, but it is implied, (mostly in the Japanese translation) that Ranni's intentions in becoming Elden Lord and taking you as her consort are to FREE the Lands Between of the meddling of gods. Her thousand year journey into the cold dark is only going to be You and Her. She does this so that her position as Elden Lord (lady?) will prevent interference from other gods, due to her influence acting as a shield. However she will undergo this journey so that her own presence is also minimal. If the people of the Lands Between will know of her as their god, they will only know her as a cold and distant thing, far far away.
Additionally, it is almost plainly evident that Astel is merely the final stage in a growth cycle of Falling Star beasts. They start off as a rocky, wingless, grounded beast, that eventually loses its protective covering as it grows, develops wings and ascends to its final stage, as an Astel.
I see the Astels as aliens like the Alabaster lords. Perhaps meteorites are actually shards of Fallingstar eggs, and every now and then, a proper egg falls to earth and manages to properly gestate.
But I do think that you are partially correct in regards to the themes relating to the sorcerers. I think the sorcerers draw parallels to the Byrgenwerth scholars in Bloodborne, relentlessly pursuing some kind of "ascension" or "grand knowledge" or whatever at the expense of everybody else. They surrender morality and ethics in this pursuit, experimenting and abusing countless victims to ascend higher and attain greater knowledge.
position as Elden Lord (lady?) will prevent interference from other gods (and interference from her and your presence) and allow the people of the Lands Between to finally be able to live freely and without needing to worry about gods and stuff like that.
@@decoherant Interesting theory, but where do the falling star beasts fit into it? I could see that being the case if Astel was unique or had some other evidence pointing that way. There are two of them, plus all of the falling star beasts could be the larval forms of Astel, with the upside down hanging ant guys that shoot meteors at you being a middle stage in the metamorphosis.
Sellen says lusat is “nigh a child of the stars”, which seems to also confirm he was on the correct path of becoming a star whatever that is. Ironically by taking his body (and removing his brain) to become a graven school she probably halted this process
One little thing that came to my mind while watching this video : most of the words used to describe the Primeval Current and its offshoots are somewhat linked to water. "Current", "Rain", "Torrent", "Abyss", "School (like in school of fishes : maybe the Graven School minds swim in the Primeval Current like fishes)", "Flow", etc. I don't what to do with it, maybe it's just a stretch, maybe not, but the linguistic connections seem to be there. Maybe the Primeval Current is like the deep sea waters that birthed life on our planet, a sort of primeval, chaotic soup, much like what life in the Crucible must have been like before it became ordered.
Flowing water also has a big implication with Scarlet Rot, found near-ish to Astel.
I might not be able to connect all these dots, but i can share the dots i find lol
@@scottbowers8841 I think the bridging link between these two concepts it's the Siofra river, there is evidence linking the blue dancer charm with it and after all its where the eternal city is found, which is also deeply linked to the stars
And when there’s stagnancy, there is festering plague and rot and undeath, much like stagnant water.
This is an unbelievably good deep dive into a foundational aspect of the game that exists alongside of - and is only tangentially linked to - the lineage of the bosses
Thanks Brendan!
I’d love a video on the greater will, because it seemed to me that the erdtree was the great tree drained of sap and bleached in gold, like it had a parasite inside of it. Then fighting the elden beast, you see countless trees, with presumably countless worlds the greater will established hegemony over. Turning the gift of the crucible into the curse of the omen. It seems like most people feel the greater will is sus, but don’t understand why.
I love videos like these because I'm not good at reading into the lore of a game while playing it, but I still find myself enamored by it
I don't understand how a channel like this has only 200k subscribers. This is peak content on the internet, high quality stuff. Thanks for your work dude!
Can't say enough how much I appreciate these lore videos, you go into great detail on every subject, and take necessary tangents for subjects that they interconnect with. There are countless details and ideas that I think we all subtly pickup in our own playthroughs of the game, even if we don't really consciously think about them, but videos like this make them click and complete our understanding of them.
And I appreciate your support ♥️thank you so much
Do you think it's possible that Malenia's southward march was specifically targeting Radahn, as his arrestment of the stars held fates which would threaten the Erdtree, such as it being usurped by the Haligtree? If so, Malenia, hoping that releasing fate would bring about the nurture of the Haligtree under her brother's auspices, ignored Leyndell and zeroed on the Redmanes to kill Radahn, and it's why she bloomed into the scartlet aeonia and released the scarlet rot, which seems very much like a desperate move.
I suppose that _could_ be one of Malenia’s motives, but personally I doubt it. Remember, Malenia and Miquella were born of Marika and Radagon, i.e. a single god. As such, they have no connection to the Carian Royal Family, which really makes it unlikely that they would have spent much if any time learning about their astrological beliefs. I doubt Malenia was totally ignorant of the importance of the stars, but remember that her goals were essentially to seek a remedy to her and her brother’s curses and to assist him in his ascension to godhood. Neither of these is helped by freeing the stars. In fact, if anything it would create more potential resistance.
@@2yoyoyo1Unplugged I suppose that makes more sense. It’s worth pointing out that Malenia’s quest for a cure for her and her brother’s maladies were intrinsically related to the Haligtree, so if anything were to stand in the way of it’s development, they would endeavour to remove it.
@@2yoyoyo1Unplugged remember that the stars control fate. Why only the fate of the Carian royal family and astrologers? That's like saying I don't have a fate unless I suddenly decide to learn astrology. If the haligtrees growth was halted it could have been due to its ties to how it could greatly alter the fate of two Empryeans.
Of course everything is speculation and I'm just voicing my doubts. Beyond these thoughts there's no reason to disagree with you.
I've always thought it very suspicious that the Mogwynn palace is basically directly under Radahn's castle. To what extent could Malenia track or sense her brother, did she think that Radahn had him when she just needed to go lower?
@@Loomx5 Ehhh not really. Miquella is Directly under the Heart/Swamp of Aeonia grace tho Where you fight Commander O Niall for the millicent questline (is it curious? idk maybe rot and blood could have something in common?). Theres also a huge tree there mishappen kind of like the Haligtree which i thought could be connected but nothing definitive. I dont think Caelid has much to do with him other than Malenia got defeated there so thats probably why Mohgwyn took him under there. Another cool thought is maybe Malenia went to caelid to find Miquella but was stopped by radahn either knowingly or unknowingly manipulated by Mohg but i dont think the timeline matches up either.
There's something else with the Amber Starlight as well. Eochid's Regalia. The amber hue of the blade is stated to be a conduit to move it by the will of the wielder alone. Will, amber stars commanding the fate of gods, the greater will... there's something there.
Something else to note is the Alabaster Lord's Sword, forged from "Golden-Hued Meteoric Ore" and "conceals gravity-manipulating magic." So there definitely is a separation and difference in amber starlight and blue starlight. Possibly a third, golden starlight? Unless this is a translation thing and gold/amber are one and the same.
I always assumed the thing Marika is hanging from is a fractured piece of the Elden Ring itself. I assumed so cuz of how much it resembles the rune arc and also it makes sense from a lore/mythology perspective
Aaah, hearing Gehrman, the First Hunter in the background gave me chills. That’s the same piece of music I listened to when looking up at the stars during my existential college days. Good times. Kinda.
Perhaps Azur and Lustat tried to have more crystal eyes on the inside?
Ah Smoughtown you're too good to us. Hope you're well, and getting the appreciation you deserve for your work.
Thank you buddy. Currently on holiday 🥰
I've being watching alot of elden ring lore content on youtube past weeks and it can tell hands down, you are the best in this segment. Much respect for the other creators but you just surpass them all with your videos and your own storytelling! Keep it up because your work is amazing.
Thanks Rene - I’m humbled
Almost 2 years later, still the best video on the topic, keep up the good work!
Sellen really was on a roll at the end there.
Zing.
We could even say she was having a ball!
I missed the Amber starlight questline the first time through but in my current playthrough I've really focused on the Moon and Stars oriented quests and characters. I too noticed that the amber starlight bears a striking resemblance to whatever is piercing the Marika/Radagon rebis. The implications of this could be monumental lore-wise but we just don't have enough information yet. DLC🤞
I believe the elden beast also has a crack in its belly in the same shape as the amber starlight. It might only be visible if you poise break the elden beast. Not quite sure.
@@BEEFlNbandit Yep you can definitely see the same wound on the Elden Beast.
The elden beast grab attack binds you to a similar colored and shaped arc
@@MrNamenamenamename Now this I did not know. I thought it was just a golden crescent is strung the player up with. Does it really have the same color scheme as the shard?
The spear is probably Destined Death piercing Marika after the defeat of Maliketh
These just keep getting better! Mad respect for the time and dedication it is definitely noticeable and really adds to the whole experience of a Fromsoft game. I don't have much or I'd be on your patreon but I just needed to at least thank you for making my love for this world grow.
Thank you Tyler, you watching my videos means the world to me
Thops's Barrier teaches us one of the most important things about the study of the stars, which is that incantation and sorcery descent from the same origin. The life amber of the Erdtree is not so different from the life amber of the stars. And from the Elden Stars description we know that long ago a golden star was sent into the Lands Between.
The fact you used Gherman's theme when discussing the mystery of the void and current. Chef's kiss.
Amazing video, I always figured that the primeval current and the crucible are actually the same thing. Given that in game it is described as both born of amber, different names for the ultimate power of creation.
i just realized a good reason for the suppression of primeval current research. if it brings them closer to the stars, theres a good likelyhood they may contact outer gods.
I love the lore so much I can't wait to hear everyone's opinions and therioes! It's soo encompassing to delve into the history behind every character
About the graven schools, you could possibly think of them as a sort of sorcery alternate to the magma wyrms,
where humans are never meant to be or will ever be these beings and attempts to be so will only end in ruin/horrific transformation of the person’s form entirely.
now this is the content I've been waiting for from the lore community.
Something you missed is in the room with the Graven Mass where you find the Staff of Master Azul, if you turn around and face the door you can see the portrait of the "mysterious" teacher that features on the Witch's Glinstone Crown. A portrait found all over the academy. A portrait, undoubtedly, of Sellen. This room saw something horrific happen, and is likely the very event that led to Sellen being exiled and pursued by Jerren.
Oh my god finally! I've been waiting for your next video, so glad it's a Sellen one! Let's see if she's as nice as I want her to be.
So, we're you disappointed or not?
@@lizzyverdiflor8807 I am disappointed.. But she so nice to us though.. :( I refuse to believe she would kill solely to further her research. I'm like Thops lol.
@@dogemaester Don't worry, they're still technically 'alive'. I actually like her a bit better now, her obsession is very human, and while the ones who can't understand her see her as a scourge, I think she saw herself as noble and 'better than everyone™'. I still like her a character.
@@lizzyverdiflor8807 To be honest though, I think she's better off dead than be stuck in this form. I like the way you describe her though haha. Another thing that bugs is why her portrait is still hung in the Debate Parlor, where you fight Red Wolf of Radagon. If she was exiled, then why are they still respecting her, while there's no paintings of Azur or Lusat or is there?
Taught me more than anyone else had based on what I was able to learn from the game directly. Great video.
I would've liked to hear your take on Pidia when discussing Seluvis. There's a theory that Pidia was the real puppet master and Seluvis was only his puppet.
Alternatively, and my favored theory is the Seluvis we meet at Three Sisters is puppet controlled by Seluvis remotely much in the same way Sellen willingly keeps a puppet body as a backup and that after his Amber Drought scheme failed he severed the connection to his puppet at Three Sisters and had the puppets murder Pidia who was his henchman to tie up loose ends and loose lips.
I hadn't thought of that second concept. I feel like it makes sense considering there's no sign of an attack on Seluvis's puppet body, which youd think wouldve happened if his betrayal was discovered or the Black Knives came for him like the others, but there's nothing. That, and there's no clear reason why the puppets turned on Pidia, so his usefulness reaching an end makes sense. Seluvis isn't as smart as he thinks he is, but there's no way he would be shortsighted enough to not have an easy out.
@@dumbsterdives This actually makes sense cuz don't if you attack Seluvis he ends up coming back and you realize it wasn't the "real" him?
there are 2 versions of his mask also. seems he keeps puppets of himself to remain hidden. he also tries feverishly to manipulate others likely in an attempt to replace them with puppets under his control. mayhaps we are a puppet of his this entire journey.
Starting off the video without an intro but with whispered quotes of the characters being talked about with no background music just sounds so alluring and intimate.
i think the speculation of the spear in marika being a amber starlight shard could be very much true! radagon studied glintstone when he married rennala, and must have studied astrology as extension as well.
It could be destined death
@@colorpg152 not sure, the elden beast's grab shows golden rays when the spear piercing marika seems red
Your videos have quickly become the most interesting lore content on youtube! The connections you make are so interesting, looking forward to the Nox episode
Thank you so much for the support!
This video is really fascinating one small note thou :
Aren’t we gonna discuss Pidia´s case ?
He seems to be the true pupeeter of Seluvis, is killed after Seluvis little scheme is uncovered by Ranni, worked for the carrian familly AND sells you a map telling you to follow the place where amber stars are falling ?
No way this is a coincidence after everything you demonstrated ^^
I saw a video on that theory and it blew my mind. Because 1) it connected (I believe it is 100% correct), but also 2) shows the staggering amount of detail FromSoft has created. This is unlike any game I can recall in memory, where so much is going on and yet the game refuses to hold your hand. Elden Ring feels like a fantasy novel adapted into a game.
This is awesome. One of my new favorite pieces of Elden Ring lore. I love that they explain how sorcery works and that it doesn't "just exist" in the world. FromSoft went pretty wild with the lore in this game in terms of scope. It's confusing and complex, but damn does it have some amazing ideas.
Why did Sellen have to become a space meatball 😭😭😭
More long form vids plz. This is what elden ring needs, the lore is just to deep and its nice to have one video tie it all together
Dude these Elden Ring lore videos are incredible. You’re doing amazing work, keep it up! Vaati has got his work cut out for him now!
They have different methods of delivering lore content. Smough reports and explains the information in an objective manner like a historian. Vaati weaves the information into an empathetic story like a bard or play write.
You are personally the best lore channel about FS games i know on yt.
I’m wondering if there is more to Iji’s connection to Sellen other than the Carian one maybe something more personal. It seems as though he put out the hit on her “Finally, we can be rid of a longstanding Carian weed”
Full dialogue from Iji about Jerren: “Now the festival is over, and General Radahn is defeated... Jerren's duties are finally fulfilled. Though we served different masters, I could see he was truly adept in his role. Now the time has come to remind him of an old promise made. With the starts of fate set into motion, a certain sorceress is dispossessed of her immortality... Finally, we can be rid of a longstanding Carian weed...”
This was SO good, I think an interesting parallel between seeing the void/current and seeing the frenzied flame could be made, in that they both produce an extreme change in the way the world is conceptualised (opposing the golden order, the primary structure of the lands between) and how this realisation has an instant mental and physical effect on those who actually manage to glimpse at something beyond the golden orders dogma, it makes the major theme of the game seem more like how the world is understood, rather than what should happen in the world, it’s so interesting to think about, thankyou for this vid keep it up!
You are most welcome! I certainly will keep it up!
Your lore videos are so well articulated, smoughtown!
Thank you my friend!
Aight Smough, you’ve convinced me, you’ve had nothing but FIRE, I’m subbing
Fun fact, in early ecclesiatical tradition the phrase "deliver us from evil" was "deliver us from saturn" i.e. deliver us from the will of the stars
I’m really going to need a source for that, chief
is it in old english?
In old occultism stuff Saturn is usually referred to as the morning star. As well as lucifer. Wonder if that's connected.
Source: Made it up
, one of the few things that would remotely correspond to this is the early attribution of daemonic powers to the planets. The Matthean Our Father in both Greek and Latin texts show no reference to Saturn, but rather just the concept of evil itself
@@MrFRNTIK What? Venus is *the* morning star usually not Saturn.
OP and This comment section seems to be misinformation.
We need more sources that's actually reliable because this stuff is interesting. Whether it's true or false.
This is the science lore I've been waiting for. As somebody desiring to merge my physiology with technology I can't help but note similar themes among radical sorcerers like Sellen and Azur in merging their bodies with Glintstone. This process enables them to experience and observe the affect of their communion with pure magical essence firsthand; why wield magic when they can become magic? Seeing Primeval Sorcerer Azur for the first time I was enamored with his look.
I dig the deep analysis into Glintstone lore. Cheers for tackling such a unique topic.
Another curious thing, could be reused assets, but Luscat’s glintstone crown is eerily similar to the envoys hat. We can’t know if they shaped those crystals but he did for sure wrap them himself in the same fashion as opposed to a different wrapping. Astrologers read fates from start and envoys supposedly read the future to an extent. Maybe luscat took inspiration from them?
I doubt it’s reused assets, it’d an exact copy with different colours if it were and I don’t think it is.
It's funny because both hats boost their respective schools of magic
Those who seek more power,like our Sellen here, always have a worst fate than death.
Oh.. great video fellow Tarnished.
interesting how the failure of the graven schools is implied to not be something technical but rather that human souls cannot handle such a state or such visions (since even the most learned masters Azur and Lusat just barely recovered a single sorcery before lapsing into stony silence). If they still had their faculties they would tell their "young" ambitious protege of the horror that is the perception of the primeval current, but since she spent her time making ambush shards instead of true scholarship she eagerly locked herself into that eternal prison
I also wonder if Astel was borne of their earthly meddling, given she is basically a perverse version of the elden beast with a human skull
I just want to say I'm happy and impressed at how interesting, important and diverse Sorcery, and those who use it, have been done in this game. I'm not sure that magic has been done this well before in their games.
Thank you for your videos, I’ve been so hungry to learn more about the connections between things in this game, seeing things from additional angles. I hadn’t thought about the specific color of Marika’a ‘cross’ but you’re right that it’s a match. Is there ever a time in one of the endings/cinematics that their body/what’s left takes on any semblance of the ‘puppet’ posture? Perhaps part of joining with Radagon (or whatever they did/are) was to still have some kind of agency if ‘her’ fate specifically was arrested-maybe the Radagon soul would still be able to act even if she wasn’t. Super speculation, but wouldn’t have even thought about it if it weren’t for this video :)
Not sure if it is just because I am hungry. But at one point it sounded like you said "Primeval Curry" 😂 great video as always. Been holding off on watching these until I had a good understanding of the broad strokes of the story from playing the game. I love all the connections you find. Always excellent!
Smough is AFK just now guys so can't add his usual discussion comment, post any questions for him under this and I'll let him know where to look!
Thanks you brother 🔥
Great video as always! Thank you for all your hard work, no one can top the quality of your lore videos.
That’s so kind 🙏I try my best thank you!
Is it possible that all the outer Gods have real world inspiration or represent real religions?
Ranni is blue with multiple arms, which is a pretty iconic depiction of Shiva. The Golden Order is held up by a crucified Marika, we all know what religion is associated with crosses. The formless mother is a blood God, which happens to align with Aztec mass sacrifice to keep the blood flowing so the sun rises and rains come. She even rains burning blood down (the sun is burning, the blood is raining)
GRR Martin is known for using real events and then fictionalizing them. The Lannisters and Starks are the Lancasters and Yorks from the War of the Roses.
I'm not saying they are supposed to BE those deities, just that their aspects in Elden Ring are borrowing those aspects or representing those aspects.
That is very plausible, I've always looked at the way marika was hung and thought it was very christ-like. The real question, however, is so? As in, so what if they are inspired by real world religions - do we learn anything else about the lore if we dive deeper into those religions? If or when someone does indeed do that, this link is just a look at something that could have just potentially influenced RR
@@yes1667 I think there could definitely be something to this. I don't know enough about Hinduism or whatever we call the Aztec religion, but the reveal about Marika and Radagon being different aspects of the same entity definitely has some "Holy Trinity" vibes. Them being opposed to each other regarding the shattering of the Elden Ring and likely holding different views on what it meant to follow the Golden Order immediately made me think of the Protestant/Catholic schism in the 1500s.
Certainly. Some inspirations I can think of Radagon and his children with Rennala, are inspired by Loki, Angrboða and 2 of their 3 children Jörmungandr, Hel. Radagon has red hair and is cursed or related to the giants, Rykard has become a giant serpent who seeks to devour the gods, Ranni is half dead like Hel. Hel is described as half blue and half flesh-coloured and as having a gloomy, downcast appearance.
Radahn doesn't seem to be inspired by Fenrir, though in Ragnarök Fenrir sons well swallow the son and moon, well the stars will disappear from the sky.
In aztec religion, a hero sacrifices themselves to light the sun in a cyclical ritual that happens right after the sun "dies", which is dark souls p much so if this turns out to be true id reckon miyazaki was already borrowing a bit.
Smough, you always get the music right - Bloodborne OST, perfect.
Thank you sir and thanks for checking it out
Notice that the Finger Slaying Blade looks just like the Elden Beasts' Relic Blade but curved, Is it possible that it too was made out of a lord of some sort?
Also: Speaking of Translations, Are the Onyx Lords connected to the Darkness of the void in the JP version?
We know they come from space but do they come from the same place as Astel or somewhere different?
Same planet different country probably
Powers are somewhat similar.
What about Crystallians? Could Azur and Lustat have become like Crytalians?
Thanks for this video, it's actually a good look into something people aren't really talking about from what I've seen, and I've wondered about since the game came out!
Thank you Seann! Makes it all worth it
"Mercury is in Retrograde right now."
Me: "When ISN'T Mercury in Retrograde?!"
I know right!?
@@SmoughTown I do Astrology and Tarot not because I believe it (I don't) but because
1. It passes time
2. It is fun
On Marika's crucifixion stake: I always took it to be a giant Rune Arc, personally. Similar shape, similar colour, they even have similar sparkles of golden light coming off of them.
Smough is a fucking legend man
*fuckinglegendman
Hahah there he is
I cannot tell you how long I’ve been waiting for a lore episode explaining this!!!
Those thumbnails are looking awesome on your vids!
Biased AF
Appreciate you going into detail the lore in these games is always breathtaking
Huh! Incredibly interesting video
Your comments about the amber starlight shard especially have me wondering if that isn't... maybe the same substance as the Elden Ring itself?? With either the shard being a broken off piece of the Elden Beast or another creature like it, OR that the runes that make up the Elden Ring/Beast were forged together from Amber Starlight by the Greater Will
Maybe that's even the material Radagon used to create the amber egg and Rune of the Unborn
Yes most likely the Elden Ring is made up of amber starstuff since it is basically a synthesized pattern of fate: The Golden Order. The Greater Will comes from the stars but it is trying to monopolize the power found in the Lands Between for itself, keeping out other gods and astral influences.
Edit: Also remember that Renalla doesn't have her own greater rune but the egg acts as a SUBSTITUTE for one. This makes a lot of sense if they're actually both made of the same substance. Renalla's doesn't have the ordered form of a rune (a fate of sorts) which may be why she is treated as a kind of counterfeit demigod.
Damn just binged all your elden ring videos, takes a lot to hold my attention like that these days, quality work dude
Thanks Steven, humbled by your support
can the primeval current restore sellen's feet for me is what I wanna know 😐
Ayo 🤨📸
For research purposes?
Lmaoooo!
(same)…
Down and then ahhh, beautiful
I love hearing lore quips about the graven schools and exposing the eldritch horror of it, when it's very clear that it's simultaneously just a very elaborate Katamari Damacy reference XD
The Elden Ring (and thus the Elden Best and Runes) could be a certain kind of star or starlight shard. If stars can command and control fate, it would explain how the Elden Ring has the power to basically set the "rules" for how the Lands Between work. Its such a large and powerful chunk of stars that it commands the fate of the entire land. It would also explain why the Rune of Death is also called "Destined Death." It controls who is fated (or destined) to die, when, and how. When it is removed from the Elden Ring that rule is basically turned off and no one truly dies.
Amazing theory. I never made that connection. Maybe the outer gods are in relation the same but on an Eldritch level of existence? The elden beast and fingers being minor stars or peices of a greater whole sent into the lands between as a proxy because their greater true form can't be conceptualized on their level. This is why they choose empyreans (people with the ability to ascend to God hood or become a "Star" but on a rather basic reasonable level.
Kinda like how in the Bible God's true form kill mortal beings, but the angels act as a proxy with his son Jesus being a more direct physical manifestation.
@@dtk1981 yeah at the very least that seems to be what an Empyrean is: a being (besides the two or three fingers) that has an innate potential commune directly with an outer god. Mohg seems to think that Miquella could commune with the Formless Mother and Malenia seems to (unwillingly since birth) commune with the outer god of rot, so I don’t think empyrean is just a Greater Will thing. Also Rani may be communing with the moon outer god (if there is such a thing). And maybe the Fire Giant might be basically an empyrean for the Fell God.
The Frenzied Flame seems to act more directly. You aren’t an empyrean so in the frenzied flame ending you can’t fully contain it’s manifestation and your head explodes (and other followers of the frenzied flame have obviously glamming eyes while followers of the formless mother and the tarnished have much more subtle red and gold eyes respectively.)
Edit: Typos
Fun idea: alberich is a primeval sorceror, instead of gazing at the stars he looked at the bloodstar and was consumed by its magic, it;s why we find his armor covered in red crystals and his dead body in roundtable hold, looking at the sky
Wake up Tarnished, new SmoughTown lore drop
Time to spend 50 minutes at a Site of Grace I guess.
Fantastic video as always friend. Keep it up and you'll be a staple of the community like Vaati in no time!