Well, he later agrees to help her father put her on trial and execute her (which Henry later changed his mind about), so let's not make too much of his compassion.
@@nightangel972000 Coincidentally, both Joanne Whalley's roles as Katherine of Aragon and Vannozza Cattanei(mistress of Rodrigo Borgia before Giulia Farnese), was also played by Spanish Actress Assumpta Serna.
Thomas Cromwell said of Catherine of Aragon "if not for her sex, she could have defied all the heroes of History." Doesn't across well here, but she was an incredible women; even Cromwell thought so.
The Showtime series THE TUDORS also had a scene where Henry berates Chapuys for asking if Katharine could visit Mary: "That woman is the daughter of Isabella and still well loved by many of my people. If I let have free movement to visit Mary, she could raise an army against me".
I didn't like how Catherine told Mary to stand up when she was feeling dizzy. I understand Mary had to look strong before Cromwell, but she could do so properly seated. Her standing besides her mother just shows submission, not the heiress to the throne of England, who would one day rule over her own mother, had she survived long enough to live in her reign.
Catherine was the daughter of Ferdinand and Isabella and generally considered to have been extremely capable. It's likely she was fully aware of how much danger she and Mary were in and didn't want to betray any sign of physical weakness, knowing Cromwell would report every minute detail back to Henry to convince him that it wasn't prudent to keep Mary in the line of succession. Also she claims it's menstrual pain, but it's also Mantel foreshadowing Mary's uterine health issues that would eventually kill her during her reign.
In truth Catherine was separated from her daughter since she was around 10 years old, they lived apart, and she was sometimes permitted to see her daughter. He split them exactly when he decided he wanted a divorce, probably to cut Catherine's hold on their daughter and as a form of blackmailing, so I doubt this scene could have happened. By that time she lived with her governess the countess of Salisbury
Interesting that people would assume that, considering she was a devout Catholic and Cromwell was by all accounts a staunch Protestant. Not saying it couldn't happen, but it'd be a religiously mismatched one, for sure.
@@timetravelingshark8811The rumors that spread around back then were often ridiculous but still could be dangerous if they weren't squashed. After Catherine Howard was executed there was an immediate rumor that Henry had remarried Anne Of Cleves and she was already pregnant, and Henry felt threatened enough by it that he sent people to Anne to get an official denial on paper.
@@timetravelingshark8811 I guess when you think about it, once a false rumor got shared in correspondence to other countries (like ambassadors writing back to their own Kings and Queens) it took a long time to be corrected and things could happen in the interim. It's amazing to think of how slow communications were back then and how international politics could ever be conducted based on delays of weeks in between letters.
Mary's severe menstrual cramps may be a foreshadowing of the cancer that would ultimately take her life. The way her mother dismisses her daughter's suffering is not uncommon. A friend of mine suffered severe menstrual cramps since puberty and the OB-GYNs she saw dismissed her as just an overly "emotional" or "hysterical" young lady. They effectively told her to take a Midol and stop whining. Turns out that she had Endometriosis. If all of those OB-GYNs had taken her pain seriously, they might have been able to deal with her Endometriosis early on, but now she's so far gone that she's no longer able to conceive children. Endometriosis at it's worse can lead to cancer. That may have been what took Mary Tudor's life.
We pitifully would never know.But if her mom had problems carrying children to term, then these female problems of Mary could be maybe inherited and just ran in their side of the family
The author of Wolf Hall, Hilary Mantel, likewise suffered from endometriosis during her life. Her symptoms were also dismissed by male physicians. She required a hysterectomy at age 27 and was never able to bear children. Mantel writes about the experience in her brilliant memoir, Giving Up the Ghost.
@@odonnemt Wow! I did not know that Hilary Mantel suffered as well. What Endometriosis sufferers have to go through-even to just be properly diagnosed-is arduous and unfair.
Such a wonderful drama but odd that Mary is depicted as a bit simple. Maybe it was ‘women’ disorder’ affecting her (which it did in later life) Whalley plays a great part as Katherine
Yes, I'm sure that's right. It seems Mary was really suffering and unable to make a favorable impression. As for Queen Catherine, she was considered a good, kind, pious, and highly moral woman; however, she was also of royal blood and therefore a woman of great pride as well. Her disdainfully saying, "someone like you" I think shows that.
In The Tudors Mary was a small child when she was separated from her mother, and Katherine loved her a great deal, here Katherine seems a bit uncaring of her daughter’s distress. I’m curious which would be the accurate depiction.
@@connie4937She's not necessarily uncaring in this scene but rather teaching her daughter a valuable lesson. Mary was a princess of England and at this point heir to the throne. It was expected of her to always carry herself gracefully and not let the people around her see her troubles - especially if that trouble was her period which was something that wasn't openly talked about at that time. That's why Catherine commanded her daughter tonstand up straight and act as if she wasn't in pain. It was, what was expected of her. As for her age, this is pretty accurate as Mary was about 15 years old when Henry split the Church of England from Rome.
@@Esafc-lb2sg why would she be anxious? she was born as the most important child in the country and the kings only heir. She was always said to be intensely confident. She may have lost henry’s favour at some point, but for the first decade or so of her life she was the pearl of his world.
@@jacobsalisbury8464 Why? She's spending all her time with her mother who is telling her she may be about to lose everything. Hence why she is desperate to appear strong even when needing to sit down. Remember this is fiction not a documentary.
She's not slow, she's in pain. Mary struggled with menstrual pains all through her life (likely from dysmenorrhea or endometriosis) but it's quite clear at 3:41 that she didn't lack wit
It wasn't right at all what King Henry VIII did to his TRUE QUEEN Katherine Of Aragon and his TRUE PRINCESS Mary Tudor the rightful Heir to the English Throne, l pray everytime or almost everytime that l'll never see him in Heaven for all the horrible and detestedble things that he did and committed.
I believe she's stating she is experiencing menstrual pain. Mary suffered from painful menstruation almost from the start of puberty, and it's suggested there was a gynecological problem that kept her from becoming pregnant. If I remember properly, menstrual pains were supposed to when a woman was "unclean" according to Leviticus 15:19-33. Considering both Mary and her mother were highly religious, this is the only reason I can think of. Mary started off as a healthy child, but her health deteriorated once she began to be mistreated. She remained sickly all of her adult life.
Mary had very strong menstrual pains. No disorder...just her being woman, having period. But frowned upon as weakness in the time. However I have to state in her case, there really was Mary's weakness. It was said period so strong at one time(around her thirties I believe), that each period was purgatory for her. She had bad pains even as teenager...signaling something was truly wrong with her. If there is nowadays medical term for that I do not know, but at the time they would simply think she was having bad period and speak of that. Also in Spanish it sounds like she is saying ,disposición'. And disposición in spanish means exactly the same as disposition in english and hence is not a disorder. Bad translation. Woman's disposition...makes more sence and is easier to guess she had menstruation.
Basically yes, he split with the Catholic Church cause he didn't like being told he couldn't divorce/annul his marriage to Katherine of Aragon in favor of Anne Boleyn. He wanted to do his own thing and threw a temper tantrum when he was told no essentially.
@@AbbyWhisperWitch yup exactly,that's so narcissistic and the way he dumped Anne later is so weird. Like he literally transformed an entire religious organization to marry an woman then dumped her. I literally have trust issues now after reading Anne's and Katherine's story . Both the women were with him for so many years specifically Katherine yet got dumped.
Helen Davis: I reported this is Augustus ceases so the winner would have to be the loser and and help women Francois Mitterrand: your sins are beyond the grace of Allah 😮😂😂😂😂😂
![[meme] Thomas Cromwell being 100% Done with everyone and everything for 10 minutes | Wolf Hall](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/v34sbs18ar0/mqdefault.jpg)
I watched "Wolf Hall" many times, and will watch it again, because it is a wonderfull series !
Cromwell’s genuine concern for Mary is very touching. Fetching the chair for her was a beautiful moment.
Well, he later agrees to help her father put her on trial and execute her (which Henry later changed his mind about), so let's not make too much of his compassion.
Un momento falso, no obstante
All praise to Lily Lesser for her brief portrayal of Princess Mary. A very fine performance. "So its bound to be lavish"
She is the real ex wife of Val Kilmer
Joanne Whalley , Katherine of Aragon is the ex wife of Val Kilmer
I can't decide if he is being kind to Princess Mary by getting her a chair, or thumbing his nose at Queen Katherine, or both.
The woman playing Katherine of Aragon also played Queen Mary Tudor in the Virgin Queen mini series.
James Dowds Now that, I was unaware of.
@@nightangel972000 Coincidentally, both Joanne Whalley's roles as Katherine of Aragon and Vannozza Cattanei(mistress of Rodrigo Borgia before Giulia Farnese), was also played by Spanish Actress Assumpta Serna.
Stacey Vermilyea she also played Scarlett O’Hara in “Scarlett” in the 90s
And she played Margaret of York in The White Princess.
Thomas Cromwell said of Catherine of Aragon "if not for her sex, she could have defied all the heroes of History." Doesn't across well here, but she was an incredible women; even Cromwell thought so.
Won a war against the Scots while Henry was off messing around in France.
He mentions something along those lines (defending her) before the archery scene.
That's because she was born and educated to be a queen. Hence she was a great queen.
Better ruler than mad Henry
The Showtime series THE TUDORS also had a scene where Henry berates Chapuys for asking if Katharine could visit Mary: "That woman is the daughter of Isabella and still well loved by many of my people. If I let have free movement to visit Mary, she could raise an army against me".
I didn't like how Catherine told Mary to stand up when she was feeling dizzy. I understand Mary had to look strong before Cromwell, but she could do so properly seated. Her standing besides her mother just shows submission, not the heiress to the throne of England, who would one day rule over her own mother, had she survived long enough to live in her reign.
I suspect catherine didn't want Cromwell to assume lady Mary was ill and use this to further henry's aim to replace her as heir to the throne.
Catherine was the daughter of Ferdinand and Isabella and generally considered to have been extremely capable. It's likely she was fully aware of how much danger she and Mary were in and didn't want to betray any sign of physical weakness, knowing Cromwell would report every minute detail back to Henry to convince him that it wasn't prudent to keep Mary in the line of succession. Also she claims it's menstrual pain, but it's also Mantel foreshadowing Mary's uterine health issues that would eventually kill her during her reign.
In truth Catherine was separated from her daughter since she was around 10 years old, they lived apart, and she was sometimes permitted to see her daughter. He split them exactly when he decided he wanted a divorce, probably to cut Catherine's hold on their daughter and as a form of blackmailing, so I doubt this scene could have happened. By that time she lived with her governess the countess of Salisbury
@@dendenne4856This is based on a fictional telling of it. It’s not historically accurate.
Cromwell and Mary (Mary I in the end) they were great friends. Some people said they were afraid they would finished getting married.
I love how in the books this is a major problem. "Please stop joking about how I'm going to marry the princess, it's really dangerous."
Interesting that people would assume that, considering she was a devout Catholic and Cromwell was by all accounts a staunch Protestant. Not saying it couldn't happen, but it'd be a religiously mismatched one, for sure.
@@timetravelingshark8811The rumors that spread around back then were often ridiculous but still could be dangerous if they weren't squashed. After Catherine Howard was executed there was an immediate rumor that Henry had remarried Anne Of Cleves and she was already pregnant, and Henry felt threatened enough by it that he sent people to Anne to get an official denial on paper.
@@zippymufo9765 Very true!
@@timetravelingshark8811 I guess when you think about it, once a false rumor got shared in correspondence to other countries (like ambassadors writing back to their own Kings and Queens) it took a long time to be corrected and things could happen in the interim. It's amazing to think of how slow communications were back then and how international politics could ever be conducted based on delays of weeks in between letters.
Poor Mary.
The pain is real
today menstruation can be suppressed by pills
@@dendenne4856historians think she had endometriosis
Mary did suffer from terribly painful menstrual cycles, and this has been linked to what was probably her inability to bear children.
Mary's severe menstrual cramps may be a foreshadowing of the cancer that would ultimately take her life. The way her mother dismisses her daughter's suffering is not uncommon. A friend of mine suffered severe menstrual cramps since puberty and the OB-GYNs she saw dismissed her as just an overly "emotional" or "hysterical" young lady. They effectively told her to take a Midol and stop whining. Turns out that she had Endometriosis. If all of those OB-GYNs had taken her pain seriously, they might have been able to deal with her Endometriosis early on, but now she's so far gone that she's no longer able to conceive children. Endometriosis at it's worse can lead to cancer. That may have been what took Mary Tudor's life.
We pitifully would never know.But if her mom had problems carrying children to term, then these female problems of Mary could be maybe inherited and just ran in their side of the family
that's a wonderful insight
The author of Wolf Hall, Hilary Mantel, likewise suffered from endometriosis during her life. Her symptoms were also dismissed by male physicians. She required a hysterectomy at age 27 and was never able to bear children. Mantel writes about the experience in her brilliant memoir, Giving Up the Ghost.
@@odonnemt Wow! I did not know that Hilary Mantel suffered as well. What Endometriosis sufferers have to go through-even to just be properly diagnosed-is arduous and unfair.
That and she was also under severe stress because of her parents so this probably caused her phsyical issues to be exacerbated
Criminally underrated show
What an excellent series.
Classic Spanish mother:
“Mom can I please sit down? I’m in extreme pain.”
“Would you like to be in more pain?”
Could Hilary please finish the third book so we get a second season before Mark Rylance gets too expensive for the bbc
Season 2 on the way 😁
Such a wonderful drama but odd that Mary is depicted as a bit simple. Maybe it was ‘women’ disorder’ affecting her (which it did in later life) Whalley plays a great part as Katherine
Yes, I'm sure that's right. It seems Mary was really suffering and unable to make a favorable impression. As for Queen Catherine, she was considered a good, kind, pious, and highly moral woman; however, she was also of royal blood and therefore a woman of great pride as well. Her disdainfully saying, "someone like you" I think shows that.
In The Tudors Mary was a small child when she was separated from her mother, and Katherine loved her a great deal, here Katherine seems a bit uncaring of her daughter’s distress. I’m curious which would be the accurate depiction.
@@connie4937She's not necessarily uncaring in this scene but rather teaching her daughter a valuable lesson. Mary was a princess of England and at this point heir to the throne. It was expected of her to always carry herself gracefully and not let the people around her see her troubles - especially if that trouble was her period which was something that wasn't openly talked about at that time. That's why Catherine commanded her daughter tonstand up straight and act as if she wasn't in pain. It was, what was expected of her. As for her age, this is pretty accurate as Mary was about 15 years old when Henry split the Church of England from Rome.
I’m not a fan of this portrayal of Mary as a bit slow. She was always said to be strong willed and clever.
She was a lot younger when they were separated too
She doesn’t appear slow here, but very nervous, as you might expect she would be having never had the approval or love of her father.
@@Esafc-lb2sg why would she be anxious? she was born as the most important child in the country and the kings only heir. She was always said to be intensely confident. She may have lost henry’s favour at some point, but for the first decade or so of her life she was the pearl of his world.
@@jacobsalisbury8464 Why? She's spending all her time with her mother who is telling her she may be about to lose everything. Hence why she is desperate to appear strong even when needing to sit down. Remember this is fiction not a documentary.
She's not slow, she's in pain. Mary struggled with menstrual pains all through her life (likely from dysmenorrhea or endometriosis) but it's quite clear at 3:41 that she didn't lack wit
*use to be a money lender, now he writes the laws.* imagine such a thing! _JC
Yeah, that's absurd. It's almost as if Goldman Sachs alumni suddenly turn politician or something and write fiscal laws.
Fun Fact: Joanne Whalley also played the daughter Mary in 2005's VIRGIN QUEEN miniseries.
She also played Margaret of Burgundy in the white queen or white princess
Hans Holbien knew them. He disliked Cromwell. But liked Thomas More.
Even as a Protestant, I'd say Catherine would have made a hell of a head of state without the infantile madman that was Henry.
Does anyone know what tapestry that is, that Cromwell is looking at?
So Katherine of Aragon can sit, but Princess Mary cannot? 🤨
Everyone in Tudor times was called Thomas, even the women!
It wasn't right at all what King Henry VIII did to his TRUE QUEEN Katherine Of Aragon and his TRUE PRINCESS Mary Tudor the rightful Heir to the English Throne, l pray everytime or almost everytime that l'll never see him in Heaven for all the horrible and detestedble things that he did and committed.
Solo vos a la justicia tanto supierais honrar
What does woman’s disorder mean?
I believe she's stating she is experiencing menstrual pain. Mary suffered from painful menstruation almost from the start of puberty, and it's suggested there was a gynecological problem that kept her from becoming pregnant.
If I remember properly, menstrual pains were supposed to when a woman was "unclean" according to Leviticus 15:19-33. Considering both Mary and her mother were highly religious, this is the only reason I can think of.
Mary started off as a healthy child, but her health deteriorated once she began to be mistreated. She remained sickly all of her adult life.
Darwin fan That sounds like endometriosis. Both my mom and sister had that; which led to my mom getting ovarian cancer.
@@nightangel972000 she most definitely had dysmenorrhea, but it's highly likely she had endometriosis.
Mary had very strong menstrual pains. No disorder...just her being woman, having period. But frowned upon as weakness in the time. However I have to state in her case, there really was Mary's weakness. It was said period so strong at one time(around her thirties I believe), that each period was purgatory for her. She had bad pains even as teenager...signaling something was truly wrong with her. If there is nowadays medical term for that I do not know, but at the time they would simply think she was having bad period and speak of that.
Also in Spanish it sounds like she is saying ,disposición'. And disposición in spanish means exactly the same as disposition in english and hence is not a disorder.
Bad translation. Woman's disposition...makes more sence and is easier to guess she had menstruation.
@@j.c.h.3257 She speaks French, not Spanish. "C'est mon disposition féminine".
I wonder if tom holland will reprise his role?
It isn't tudors at 2007
May bernard hill rest in peace
>Viva Catalina de Aragón, herejes
¡Jajajaja! ¡Voto a tal!
I'm a Hindu but I'll never understand how can a King be the Head of the Church or any religious institution? isn't it narcissism?
Basically yes, he split with the Catholic Church cause he didn't like being told he couldn't divorce/annul his marriage to Katherine of Aragon in favor of Anne Boleyn.
He wanted to do his own thing and threw a temper tantrum when he was told no
essentially.
@@AbbyWhisperWitch yup exactly,that's so narcissistic and the way he dumped Anne later is so weird. Like he literally transformed an entire religious organization to marry an woman then dumped her. I literally have trust issues now after reading Anne's and Katherine's story . Both the women were with him for so many years specifically Katherine yet got dumped.
@anikethchakraborty3238 Cause he was obsessed with having a son....and a heap of other issues hut that was one of the main ones.
@@anikethchakraborty3238Being the head of the church gave him too much power.
Katherine of Aragon was blonde practically with the red hair, not brunette, is very easy see the portraits
Complete rubbish depicting Cromwell as the hero and St Thomas More as the villain
Jesus is the head of the Catholic Church… they got this wrong on the show.
Helen Davis: I reported this is Augustus ceases so the winner would have to be the loser and and help women
Francois Mitterrand: your sins are beyond the grace of Allah
😮😂😂😂😂😂
Thank fuck we cut the Roman Catholicism out or never been gb