Good video, resins were generally cooked with the lid on, hole in the top to stir.Vanish according to the many books i have made should be made with clarified linseedoil, the stuff that is cooked by Frank Pallister on utube. The books also stress to cool mixture to about 150c before adding turpentine.Shame the old varnish makers are not around anymore, enjoyed your video it all helps with the puzzle. Jacob( french polisher)
Hi David,probably been a year or so but have managed to make a manila copal oil varnish with my kettle boiled(refined) oil. Did not want to mix with the oil after fusing the copal on its own,American man suggested I do half half with rosin,that seems to have worked well enough,needs more practice but the old oak chair I varnished looks good,it dries within 24 hrs at decent room temperature. I am quite pleased,use manila copal in my french polish mixtures to make table top polish but this is fun. Jacob
I made a batch of varnish today following your video and it seems to have worked out fine. I cooked the oil at 600ºF for an hour and a half and it got darker, but it really didn't thicken much. That was pretty scary considering the auto-ignition temperature of linseed oil is about 650ºF. The other touchy part was adding the ash/lime water to the resin. It really wanted to foam up and it took a considerable amount of time to get all the water added and then boil it off. I brushed some of the finished varnish on a scrap of wood and will let it set overnight to see if it air dries. If not, I plan on UV curing it anyway. Thanks for putting up the video.
Very nice ! I cant believe this video showed up the day I was studying all the amazing materials my violin making teachers familly gave me after he passed . I found some old brown bottles , and linseed oil and poppyseed oil and dark linseed and some patroleum smelling stuff . The turpinetine that you add at the end is something I will like to have understood more how much and how and stuff . and I was wondering what you meant by the violin was prepared with a Ground ? before its first coat ?
Hello David! Thank you for mentioning Keith Hill as the source for your varnish recipe! It's higly interesting to read what Mr Hill has found out. Do you know any violin maker who is crafting the described area tuning? As for the varnish making I think that the wood ash scheme is the only key to get a perfect varnish the easy way and without unwanted chemistry. I did it slightly different using fir resin and it worked out great. Cheers
Thanks for showing a genuine traditional way of making a finish. Couple of quick questions: Do you test the strength of your potassium hydroxide solution (as soap makers would with buoyancy)? Or test the pH correction you're doing with the lime? "Close" like horseshoes good enough? Thanks.
No I don't test it. Generally the acidity of the solution decreases with the ionisation that occurs with the high temperatures. I have not had a problem with this so I have never tested it....Now you have me curious, so I probably will test it now...!!
Hello there, what a beautiful process.. as a violinist it is fascinating to witness the art behind the creation of the instrument. I can picture in my mind the luthier varnishing my own violin just like this 200 years ago! Also may I ask what piece of music you've used in this video? It's exquisite!
i see no ones commented on this in a couple of years but im planning on using this for a repair jobby and am going to sub shellac for Damar. If this is a dumb stupid idea somebody please stop me!
Stop! Haha. You don't have to use Damar, there are other recipes (Amber, Colophony, other things) but Shellac is an entirely different process. You dissolve the Shellac in pure alcohol (as pure as you can find) and that's it. Look up French Polishing on the web for how to get a beautiful (but not waterproof) finish with shellac.
Why do you leave the varnish so thick, with violins do you not want the varnish to soak in but rather lie on top? Someone has asked me for advice on French polishing a guitar(that is my job) would the same principle apply and you don, t want the shellac to soak in? Your oil cooking:have a go with keeping oil under 228c above that the oil starts to crack, changes consistency. Most of the old books recommend this. Jacob
Thank you for this brilliant video. my question is about a little bottle of violin varnish that has been in storage and has gone a bit thick. It is spirit varnish. How and can I restore its viscosity, and what is the best way to do it. please.
If it is a spirit varnish the obvious choice would be to add spirit. The change of viscosity can have three reasons: 1) the solvent has evaporated and some level of polymerisation has happened. This is easily reversible by adding solvent 2) the ingredients have separated due to physical processes and lack of solvent. This is in most cases reversible by adding solvent 3) some of the ingredients might have deteriorated and changed the properties of the varnish. It might still be usable, but you would need to test this - after adding some solvent
This varnish looks good but I think I did something wrong the results after many coats look good but the cured article with many coats is very brittle and flakey . What did I do wrong ? Can I adjust the mixture or do I have to start from scratch ?
David can you remind me why you add slaked lime, I have learned that in varnish oil making they added burned magnesium, magnesium oxide to bring down acidity which resulted in better water resistance. Thank you Jacob Posthuma de boer
I suspect the acidity has little to do with the solubility/water resistance. It is however important for the stability of many pigments and the polymerisation process. Many of my colleagues believe the addition of lime leads to an early saponification of the fatty acids that make up the oil - this in turn leads to a better surface and water resistance. So there is probably a number of processes at work here.
You mentioned the term "GROUND" can you explain what that is, please and also your web address. I started researching this subject in the late 1990's early 2000's. I am so very pleased to find your video. I am inspired to continue what I started. Thank you.
James. The ground is designed to seal the wood of the violin prior to colouring it. If you applied colour directly to the wood it tends to soak in and spread through the grain causing blotching. Most makers apply a ground of some sort. I cant remember what i used for this violin as I often try different techniques. what I have settled on at the moment is a prestain of black tea x 2 coats. Then a mixture of varnish thinned to a honey consistency mixed with a fin mineral such as pumice or rose rottenstone (tripoli). The mixture is about 1:.75 . I then burnish into the wood with a finger or a cotton cloth. Then I apply two coats of very thinned clear varnish. My web site is www.davidirelandstrings.com/ Good luck..!!
I looked at the varnish recipe on the web address link that you provide (thank you for that, by the way). The author makes it clear that using edible, cold pressed linseed oil is important. My question is this; is flaxseed oil the same thing as cold pressed linseed oil? From my research it seems that both are derived from the same plant. The difference seems to be that flaxseed oil is cold pressed and edible while linseed oil is processed with petroleum products. I only ask as I am finding it impossible to locate cold pressed linseed oil nearby (Montana USA) but many stores sell flaxseed oil. Any advice would be most welcome!
+Taurus Guitar Maker Flaxseed oil is linseed oil, it is how the oil was extracted that is important. Cold pressed oil is the purest oil because no additional chemicals are used to extract the oil. You can usually buy cold pressed or very pure linseed oil from an Art suppliers or an organic/heath food supply store. I got my oil in this video from a reputable local art supply supply store. It was expensive but hopefully worth it.!! I have also cooked this varnish with raw linseed oil from a local hardware. Avoid boiled linseed or anti mould linseed oil as these have added drying and preservative agents in them. Cooking with the raw linseed from the local hardware yielded very similar, if not the same, results as the cold pressed oil. it will be interesting to see how time effects the two different oils. Hope this helps...
Hi, David, I really Enjoyed Your video Could You Please answer A couple Question I have? 1. Do You add spruce and maple 250g each or 125g each and the result is 250g? 2. How much would You say You reduce the linseed oil, boil off 25%, 50 % ??? 3. What kind of lime do You Use Quicklime or Slated lime? 4. Does the Resin Start to sizzle and burst when you add the ash/lime solution? 5. Do You have to reheat the oil before You add it to the hot resin? 6. Do You add the hot gum turpentine to hot or cold Varnish? 7. Do you mix all the Varnish and all the gum turpentine at once or right before you apply it? 8. How long does it take for the Varnish to dry? Thank You Very much I really appreciate it and I really enjoyed Your Video May you Have lots of Success in Your future projects. Thank You, Shem Namo
1. I burn enough ash to filter the water through. It is usually a number of shavings from the violin. As long as it darkens the water you are good. 2. about 25% or less. The important part is to darken and thicken the oil....be careful though, there is a point when the oil will suddenly coagulate. you want to stop before this point. 3. Slacked lime 4. Yes. What is happening is that the cold water is cooling the resin and it hardens. Add the ash water slowly wile stirring. 5. No. The resin does not take long to melt and combine. 6. Wait for a little while to let the varnish cool. But I still add it while it is hot. You could add it when it is cool, but the varnish is very thick and it will take a while to combine. 7. I mix in the 125 grams of turps in the original mixture. Then when I am ready to varnish I take out some varnish and thin it more with more turps. 8. As long as you apply thin coats it takes a few days in the sun. And about 4-8 hours in a UV box...
Varnish made with Baltic amber is far superior to anything based on colophony, or the non-traditional damar resin. Damar is a recently exuded resin, has not polymerized, and does not fuse with drying oil very well at all. In fact, it generally remains turbid. It is not very durable, and varnishes made with it rely on the drying oil, for the most part, for their integrity. It is prone to cracking, and in some varieties, since it is not filtered, in the making of solvent varnish, when made into an oil varnish, the natural waxes remain, and can cause the film to remain sticky for a very long time. Damar oil varnish, in no way approximates the excellent properties, of amber, or even hard copal oil varnishes, all in my opinion. If you know how to make amber varnish, you are to the varnish making world, what the International Space Station is to the Wright brothers.
I use more traditional colours when i can - Lakes and pigments. However the use of good quality oil paints with oil varnish as a medium works very well. There are a number of good coloured varnishes made by different companies that are also worth a try. I would avoid using "industrial" wood stains and varnishes for a musical instrument.
+Robson Alfieri There are so many ways to ground a violin. this is the method I used for this violin 1. Wet the violin to raise the grain. light sanding on the maple. Scraper on the spruce. Do it twice. 2. Apply a light layer of gypsum to fill the grain. I made a batch with plaster of paris by stirring it for about a week! Very lightly sand it down after it dries. 3. 6 x teabags in a cup of water. Get it nice and dark. Apply to the violin. Take care when applying to the spruce as it tends to get darker on the end grain of the back and front curves. Do it twice. Brush it on lightly. You dont want to lift the gypsum out of the grain. 4. Using a mix of 2 parts linseed oil and 1 part gum turpentine. Apply very lightly. Like a french polish. Some people dont like linseed oil. I think if it used sparingly and allowed sufficient time to dry and cure then it is no problem.. This method darkens and "yellows" the violin so that you dont need as many colour layers. Hope this helps.
+ Dear David Ireland First of all i would like to thank for this informative video of the violin varnish. I am luthier in Turkey. I am making violin and classic Turkish instruments. Last week i tried to make this kind of varnish as you Show in the video. Now i have one question to you. How long it takes to dry? I will be appreciated if you ansver me.
+Serdar Çakırer when you varnish make sure you thin it with gum turpentine. With oil varnish you need to apply very thin coats. The expose it to UV light. Sunlight is the best but you can also use a UV booth. It should take a few hours to dry to the touch. Some area don't get the direct sunlight so you may have to find a way to turn it upside down. To really dry the instrument it may require a few days. Recoats can be done after it is dry to the touch. Hope this helps.
+David Ireland Yes this answer is enough for me. thanks a lot. Another thing i want to learn is the measurement of the ingredients for varnish. How much linseed oil, pine resin, dammar resin, turpentine, lime and ash water should i use
Varnish was always made with varnish linseedoil.Heated to 270c, make sure you stir regularly, the oil will break at that temp.After few days you will see a floating light brown hairy stuff at the bottom,look carefully not always obvious.Strain off oil leaving this behind.Now this is Varnishoil.
Not a varnish. Your only can make a little bit thicker oil with that method. All quality oil for varnish has to be treated with an alkali first. Not even need to cook anything when the sun can made all the "cooking" part.
Hi David. Thanks for the great video. I found it very interesting. I also read the article on the website you listed with the recipe. Rather difficult to follow, as it is a flourish of narrative rather than a simple recipe. I was wondering how you got around the 6-12 months of, I guess, making rusty turpentine? I have a feeling I will not have the patience...or air pump for that. Thanks
hi thanks for the great video i was wondering what gouges do you use because i bought a cheap set of faithful ones and they are useless and dont cut through the wood like they should . thanks again, A
Hey madgun. I use gouges that are similar quality to the faithful. Most of the lower end chisels and gouges are made from manganese steel which is brittle and tends to blunt quickly. However they should do the job just fine you just need to sharpen them more often. I might do a quick video for you on how I sharpen my gouges. Basically I hone and polish the inside of the gouge with wet and dry sandpaper over a dowel, then I work on the bevel on a whet stone and then polish with a leather strop. Keeping them sharp is the key. A good intermediate gauge is a brand called stubai. If you are in OZ lookup www.thewoodworks.com.au. These will probably be my next gauge set.
The faithful gouges are very raw when you first receive them . After some grinding , polishing and stopping they are perfectly usable. I recomend looking at videos on the subject by Paul Sellars . Don't buy expensive sharpening equipment it's all elbow grease and know how .
Hello Mr David. Thank you for the video. Does this varnish works well on warmer climates (Brasil)? I mean If this varnish dries, cure and make a varnish with all the carachteristics ir must have, even on warm climates? Any sugestion or tips on this, If any modification needed? Thank you very much, greetings from Brasil.
I would not modify the recipe. What i would do is thin out the varnish more than usual using gum turpentine. Apply very thin layers to the instrument and allow extra curing/drying time between coats. This should help
David, could you elaborate on the amounts used in your video? When checking out the Keith Hill link, his "recipe" creates WAY more than I'll ever need. Your video is what I want to follow.
Ingredient WeightUnitDamar 150gramsCalophony (pine resin) 100gramsLinseed 213gramsLiquid wood ash 250gramsSlacked Line 0.6teaspoonGum Turpentine 125gramsSteps1Boil Linseed oil for 1.5 hours - darken and thicken.2Burn 250 grams of maple and spruce 3Put ash in coffee filter and filter 250 grams of water through it.4Damar & Calaphany in pot. Bring to 1005Bring to 170 and add liquid ash and slacked lime. Keep stirring6Boil off water7Bring to 280 for 10 minutes8Add linssed oil9Bring to 300 for 30 minutes and conduct string test10Heat turps to 10011Add turps while stirring12Let cool and filter through pantyhose while still warm
Awesome, thank you for taking time to respond. While watching the video, I notice your thermometer is set for celsius, are the temps in your reply C, or F? Thanks! Can't wait to give this a shot!
I've you've already got linseed oil that has been cooked, could you prepare the varnish by dissolving the rosin and linseed oil in turpentine and mixing the two together that way?
@Dongs Thanks for the reply. I gave it a shot and it works quite nicely. I've also found that adding a little pine tar can give the varnish a nice rich colour. Adding a little beeswax too results in a kind of finish/varnish that can be buffed to a bright shine.
How can I finalize a fingerboard? Do I use any type of varnish to give it a shine? Can I use turpentine with linseed oil? What would be the amount? What is the healing time? Como posso finalizar uma fingerboard? Uso algum tipo de verniz para dar bilho? Posso usar terebentina com oleo de linhaça? Qual seria a quantidade? Qual o tempo de cura?
There are a number of ways. At the moment I am using a 1:2 ratio of linseed oil and gum turpentine. Rub it into the fingerboard and wipe of excess. I dry it in a UV box and then burnish with a cotton cloth.
@@JacareDoQuerosene It will last for a very long time. The oils ruse with the resins so there is little chance of it going rancid. Some blow an intert gas like argon or nitrogen inside to stop further oxidiation and setting of the varnish. However if you use it regualrly you dont really need to...
hello, i am wondering if i could try to melt some rosin for the bow(lets say some mix of the light one and the darker one to achieve colour) and than mix it with boiled linseed oil...and use it like that? or the turpentine gum is essential for the mixture( i don t know what it is...)? i have one cheap,student violin that have some parts without the lacquere, i can see the wood directly(i don t think that my violine was varnished as it supposed to be)...and i would like to try to clean all that layers until the wood remains clean, and than to varnish it entirely again somehow...do you think i could use mixture of melted bow rosin and linseed oil? my buget is limited and just want to try to make it look well finished...how many layers of the varnish should be there, and if after the last one i just should wait to dry or i need to rub there? thank you!!
+truca90 Theoretically you could melt bow rosin and combine it with linseed oil. Just remember the bonding of the rosin and oil occurs at very high temperatures - 280-300c so be very careful. The gum turpentine thins out the mixture. You will need some. Alternatively if it is a cheaper violin that you wish to re-varnish and budget is limited then you could use either a spirit varnish (see a great link here on how to make it th-cam.com/video/g0ewnWaxG-U/w-d-xo.html) or you could get get some shellac. Try it on a small area of the violin first be you cover it. You need to work quickly with the spirit varnishes because they dry very quickly.
This is hard to say, especially for oil varnishes. In the first place it is very difficult to even define „dry“ for oils, since the process of setting is completely different from solvent/water based finishes. 2-3 days are often considered the minimum time to dry for each layer. But in general the results tend to be better the more time you have. A lot depends on the quality and properties of the varnish you used too - some instruments feel tacky even weeks after. We have reports that tell us that this was even the case for the big cremonese masters. A well known anecdote includes a letter written by stradivari to a customer of his excusing the late delivery of an instrument with the unexpectedly long time it took the varnish to dry. Whether this was just an excuse, due to a bad batch of varnish or indeed intended i cannot tell.
Ingredient WeightUnitDamar 150gramsCalophony (pine resin) 100gramsLinseed 213gramsLiquid wood ash 250gramsSlacked Line 0.6teaspoonGum Turpentine 125gramsSteps1Boil Linseed oil for 1.5 hours - darken and thicken.2Burn 250 grams of maple and spruce 3Put ash in coffee filter and filter 250 grams of water through it.4Damar & Calaphany in pot. Bring to 1005Bring to 170 and add liquid ash and slacked lime. Keep stirring6Boil off water7Bring to 280 for 10 minutes8Add linssed oil9Bring to 300 for 30 minutes and conduct string test10Heat turps to 10011Add turps while stirring12Let cool and filter through pantyhose while still warm
Drying time depends on how thick the varnish is and how much UV light it is exposed to. The trick is to put on thin coats and allow it to completely dry before adding another coat. Drying in the sun is excellent and takes 1-2 days. However you need to keep rotating it to ensure the sunlight covers the whole instrument. If you dry it in a UV box it can take 4-8 hours... In my experience it is best to use only oil based varnishes on a single instrument or all spirit based varnishes. Dont mix the layers. However some makers do mix the layers with good results.!!
Thin it a lot with gum turpentine and apply very thin layers. UV bake it in the sun or box. The other reason is that the resen and the oil did not bond during the cooking of the varnish. you may need to try again....
Skrapion Skrapion the purpose of the lime is varied as it is debatable. Some suggest that it is use to balance the acidity of the varnish. Some suggest it helps with the plasticity, and others with the oxidation. I suspect all 3 in some way.
+vladykohai There are so many ways to ground a violin. this is the method I used for this violin 1. Wet the violin to raise the grain. light sanding on the maple. Scraper on the spruce. Do it twice. 2. Apply a light layer of gypsum to fill the grain. I made a batch with plaster of paris by stirring it for about a week! Very lightly sand it down after it dries. 3. 6 x teabags in a cup of water. Get it nice and dark. Apply to the violin. Take care when applying to the spruce as it tends to get darker on the end grain of the back and front curves. Do it twice. Brush it on lightly. You dont want to lift the gypsum out of the grain. 4. Using a mix of 2 parts linseed oil and 1 part gum turpentine. Apply very lightly. Like a french polish. Some people dont like linseed oil. I think if it used sparingly and allowed sufficient time to dry and cure then it is no problem.. This method darkens and "yellows" the violin so that you dont need as many colour layers. Hope this helps.
Yes you need to be careful about the oil catching fire. However in varnishes it is usually preferred to get the best and pure linseed oil that you can. As long as it is not "boiled" linseed or it has any other drying agents then it should be OK to be used....
@@rielzuad7028 I would avoid violin rosin, although it will work. The principle is to use the best resins you get get. it gives a better, lasting finish
Nice video! I think a warning would be wise, heating these organic compounds is a fire risk! You do this outside? Do you have anything to put out a fire if something goes wrong?
Very interesting. Of course resins were only used because poly hadn't been discovered. U get the exactly the same result with water based dyes and couple of coats of very thin poly. I know, blasphemus but true.
Oh, brother. What hype. Why add ash water if it's going to be boiled out? Who would add water to oil anyway? I think this is nonsense. Would work okay because adding water and then boiling it out does nothing to damage the varnish. It's just hocus pocus. Back then these guys were all covering their tracks and probably still do.
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I followed this recipe to make varnish for the viola that I am currently making . It worked very well to produce a thick Amber varnish . Thank you .
Good video, resins were generally cooked with the lid on, hole in the top to stir.Vanish according to the many books i have made should be made with clarified linseedoil, the stuff that is cooked by Frank Pallister on utube.
The books also stress to cool mixture to about 150c before adding turpentine.Shame the old varnish makers are not around anymore, enjoyed your video it all helps with the puzzle.
Jacob( french polisher)
Merci à ce sympathique luthier.
Hi David. The generosity you show to commenters and their questions here is extraordinary.
Hi David,probably been a year or so but have managed to make a manila copal oil varnish with my kettle boiled(refined) oil. Did not want to mix with the oil after fusing the copal on its own,American man suggested I do half half with rosin,that seems to have worked well enough,needs more practice but the old oak chair I varnished looks good,it dries within 24 hrs at decent room temperature.
I am quite pleased,use manila copal in my french polish mixtures to make table top polish but this is fun.
Jacob
I made a batch of varnish today following your video and it seems to have worked out fine. I cooked the oil at 600ºF for an hour and a half and it got darker, but it really didn't thicken much. That was pretty scary considering the auto-ignition temperature of linseed oil is about 650ºF. The other touchy part was adding the ash/lime water to the resin. It really wanted to foam up and it took a considerable amount of time to get all the water added and then boil it off. I brushed some of the finished varnish on a scrap of wood and will let it set overnight to see if it air dries. If not, I plan on UV curing it anyway. Thanks for putting up the video.
Uv is good but air drying is not a possibility , so just leave it in good sunshine for a few hours .
سلام استاد خسته نباشید خیلی عالی وبیار ممنونم از محبت شما
Very nice ! I cant believe this video showed up the day I was studying all the amazing materials my violin making teachers familly gave me after he passed . I found some old brown bottles , and linseed oil and poppyseed oil and dark linseed and some patroleum smelling stuff . The turpinetine that you add at the end is something I will like to have understood more how much and how and stuff . and I was wondering what you meant by the violin was prepared with a Ground ? before its first coat ?
Hello David! Thank you for mentioning Keith Hill as the source for your varnish recipe! It's higly interesting to read what Mr Hill has found out. Do you know any violin maker who is crafting the described area tuning? As for the varnish making I think that the wood ash scheme is the only key to get a perfect varnish the easy way and without unwanted chemistry. I did it slightly different using fir resin and it worked out great. Cheers
Awesome!
Thanks for showing a genuine traditional way of making a finish.
Couple of quick questions: Do you test the strength of your potassium hydroxide solution (as soap makers would with buoyancy)? Or test the pH correction you're doing with the lime? "Close" like horseshoes good enough? Thanks.
No I don't test it. Generally the acidity of the solution decreases with the ionisation that occurs with the high temperatures. I have not had a problem with this so I have never tested it....Now you have me curious, so I probably will test it now...!!
Hello there, what a beautiful process.. as a violinist it is fascinating to witness the art behind the creation of the instrument. I can picture in my mind the luthier varnishing my own violin just like this 200 years ago!
Also may I ask what piece of music you've used in this video? It's exquisite!
Thanks for the comment....the music is Beethoven - String Trio in D Major, Op. 9, No. 2
David Ireland Ah I knew Beethoven's sound, but these great composers wrote so much it's hard to keep track isn't it!
Is the ground a dewaxed shellac?
What cooker brand? I couldn't found such adjustable cooker
Lovely video, how was the varnish applied before the invention of rubber gloves?
naked fingers. before they didnt have masks for gases being spread during varnish cooking. security norms are a nowadays things but not 300 years ago
i see no ones commented on this in a couple of years but im planning on using this for a repair jobby and am going to sub shellac for Damar. If this is a dumb stupid idea somebody please stop me!
Stop! Haha. You don't have to use Damar, there are other recipes (Amber, Colophony, other things) but Shellac is an entirely different process. You dissolve the Shellac in pure alcohol (as pure as you can find) and that's it. Look up French Polishing on the web for how to get a beautiful (but not waterproof) finish with shellac.
Why do you leave the varnish so thick, with violins do you not want the varnish to soak in but rather lie on top?
Someone has asked me for advice on French polishing a guitar(that is my job) would the same principle apply and you don, t want the shellac to soak in?
Your oil cooking:have a go with keeping oil under 228c above that the oil starts to crack, changes consistency. Most of the old books recommend this.
Jacob
That would be great thanks so much for the information and I look forward to the video
+madgunman007 Still working on your video...should have it up by the end of this week.
thats great thank you so much
hi! thanks for sharing! long life and prosper 🖖
Thank you for this brilliant video. my question is about a little bottle of violin varnish that has been in storage and has gone a bit thick. It is spirit varnish. How and can I restore its viscosity, and what is the best way to do it. please.
If it is a spirit varnish the obvious choice would be to add spirit.
The change of viscosity can have three reasons:
1) the solvent has evaporated and some level of polymerisation has happened. This is easily reversible by adding solvent
2) the ingredients have separated due to physical processes and lack of solvent. This is in most cases reversible by adding solvent
3) some of the ingredients might have deteriorated and changed the properties of the varnish. It might still be usable, but you would need to test this - after adding some solvent
How many layers did you put on ?
This varnish looks good but I think I did something wrong the results after many coats look good but the cured article with many coats is very brittle and flakey . What did I do wrong ? Can I adjust the mixture or do I have to start from scratch ?
i want to see a violin with black carbon varnish, never seen it before.
Are the temperatures listed in the description in Celsius or Fahrenheit?
the varnish is waterproof ?
David can you remind me why you add slaked lime, I have learned that in varnish oil making they added burned magnesium, magnesium oxide to bring down acidity which resulted in better water resistance.
Thank you Jacob Posthuma de boer
I suspect the acidity has little to do with the solubility/water resistance. It is however important for the stability of many pigments and the polymerisation process.
Many of my colleagues believe the addition of lime leads to an early saponification of the fatty acids that make up the oil - this in turn leads to a better surface and water resistance.
So there is probably a number of processes at work here.
Another factor is that calcium is a metallic dryer. In the varnish industry, it's used to help the varnish cure faster in humid environments.
Why do you not use a brush to apply the varnish?
Estaermoso
You mentioned the term "GROUND" can you explain what that is, please and also your web address. I started researching this subject in the late 1990's early 2000's. I am so very pleased to find your video. I am inspired to continue what I started. Thank you.
James. The ground is designed to seal the wood of the violin prior to colouring it. If you applied colour directly to the wood it tends to soak in and spread through the grain causing blotching. Most makers apply a ground of some sort. I cant remember what i used for this violin as I often try different techniques. what I have settled on at the moment is a prestain of black tea x 2 coats. Then a mixture of varnish thinned to a honey consistency mixed with a fin mineral such as pumice or rose rottenstone (tripoli). The mixture is about 1:.75 . I then burnish into the wood with a finger or a cotton cloth. Then I apply two coats of very thinned clear varnish.
My web site is www.davidirelandstrings.com/
Good luck..!!
David, thank you for your response.
Very excellent Varnish recepie!! what type of gums are you using to start with? I see some very clear ones mixed with gorgeous honey colours!
I find this a beautifull color! is it also possible to use only on varnish coat on a violin? what is the purpose of more?
Jonathan Valk mainly protection. It needs several coats to build up a nice layer that looks good and to also seal in the colour coats
I looked at the varnish recipe on the web address link that you provide (thank you for that, by the way). The author makes it clear that using edible, cold pressed linseed oil is important. My question is this; is flaxseed oil the same thing as cold pressed linseed oil? From my research it seems that both are derived from the same plant. The difference seems to be that flaxseed oil is cold pressed and edible while linseed oil is processed with petroleum products. I only ask as I am finding it impossible to locate cold pressed linseed oil nearby (Montana USA) but many stores sell flaxseed oil. Any advice would be most welcome!
+Taurus Guitar Maker Flaxseed oil is linseed oil, it is how the oil was extracted that is important. Cold pressed oil is the purest oil because no additional chemicals are used to extract the oil. You can usually buy cold pressed or very pure linseed oil from an Art suppliers or an organic/heath food supply store. I got my oil in this video from a reputable local art supply supply store. It was expensive but hopefully worth it.!!
I have also cooked this varnish with raw linseed oil from a local hardware. Avoid boiled linseed or anti mould linseed oil as these have added drying and preservative agents in them. Cooking with the raw linseed from the local hardware yielded very similar, if not the same, results as the cold pressed oil. it will be interesting to see how time effects the two different oils.
Hope this helps...
Hi, David, I really Enjoyed Your video Could You Please answer A couple Question I have? 1. Do You add spruce and maple 250g each or 125g each and the result is 250g? 2. How much would You say You reduce the linseed oil, boil off 25%, 50 % ??? 3. What kind of lime do You Use Quicklime or Slated lime? 4. Does the Resin Start to sizzle and burst when you add the ash/lime solution? 5. Do You have to reheat the oil before You add it to the hot resin? 6. Do You add the hot gum turpentine to hot or cold Varnish? 7. Do you mix all the Varnish and all the gum turpentine at once or right before you apply it? 8. How long does it take for the Varnish to dry? Thank You Very much I really appreciate it and I really enjoyed Your Video May you Have lots of Success in Your future projects.
Thank You,
Shem Namo
1. I burn enough ash to filter the water through. It is usually a number of shavings from the violin. As long as it darkens the water you are good.
2. about 25% or less. The important part is to darken and thicken the oil....be careful though, there is a point when the oil will suddenly coagulate. you want to stop before this point.
3. Slacked lime
4. Yes. What is happening is that the cold water is cooling the resin and it hardens. Add the ash water slowly wile stirring.
5. No. The resin does not take long to melt and combine.
6. Wait for a little while to let the varnish cool. But I still add it while it is hot. You could add it when it is cool, but the varnish is very thick and it will take a while to combine.
7. I mix in the 125 grams of turps in the original mixture. Then when I am ready to varnish I take out some varnish and thin it more with more turps.
8. As long as you apply thin coats it takes a few days in the sun. And about 4-8 hours in a UV box...
Thank you Very Much
دستور کار آن چی بود میشه دستور کار آن را برایه من بفرستی ممنونم
David, can you make genuine Amber varnish on one of your videos? I've made it, and it's very dark, but you can lighten it up easily with turps or oil.
Varnish made with Baltic amber is far superior to anything based on colophony, or the non-traditional damar resin. Damar is a recently exuded resin, has not polymerized, and does not fuse with drying oil very well at all. In fact, it generally remains turbid. It is not very durable, and varnishes made with it rely on the drying oil, for the most part, for their integrity. It is prone to cracking, and in some varieties, since it is not filtered, in the making of solvent varnish, when made into an oil varnish, the natural waxes remain, and can cause the film to remain sticky for a very long time. Damar oil varnish, in no way approximates the excellent properties, of amber, or even hard copal oil varnishes, all in my opinion. If you know how to make amber varnish, you are to the varnish making world, what the International Space Station is to the Wright brothers.
It remains sticky , what do i do can you help me ?
if stradivari turned up and asked why you weren't using the latest technology, what would your answer to him be?
I am wondering how the old masters in the 18th century measured the temputure up to 234C.
What kind of color do you recommend for a violín? I saw in other videos, use a oleum paint.
I use more traditional colours when i can - Lakes and pigments. However the use of good quality oil paints with oil varnish as a medium works very well. There are a number of good coloured varnishes made by different companies that are also worth a try. I would avoid using "industrial" wood stains and varnishes for a musical instrument.
Hi David, thank you for your video. What Kind of Pine resin did you use? It seems orange red Before cooking. Thanks
It is standard colophony. It looks dark compared to the damar.
Es un barniz hermoso.
Great vídeo.
What is your varnish ground?
+Robson Alfieri There are so many ways to ground a violin. this is the method I used for this violin
1. Wet the violin to raise the grain. light sanding on the maple. Scraper on the spruce. Do it twice.
2. Apply a light layer of gypsum to fill the grain. I made a batch with plaster of paris by stirring it for about a week! Very lightly sand it down after it dries.
3. 6 x teabags in a cup of water. Get it nice and dark. Apply to the violin. Take care when applying to the spruce as it tends to get darker on the end grain of the back and front curves. Do it twice. Brush it on lightly. You dont want to lift the gypsum out of the grain.
4. Using a mix of 2 parts linseed oil and 1 part gum turpentine. Apply very lightly. Like a french polish. Some people dont like linseed oil. I think if it used sparingly and allowed sufficient time to dry and cure then it is no problem..
This method darkens and "yellows" the violin so that you dont need as many colour layers.
Hope this helps.
+ Dear David Ireland First of all i would like to thank for this informative video of the violin varnish. I am luthier in Turkey. I am making violin and classic Turkish instruments. Last week i tried to make this kind of varnish as you Show in the video. Now i have one question to you. How long it takes to dry? I will be appreciated if you ansver me.
+Serdar Çakırer when you varnish make sure you thin it with gum turpentine. With oil varnish you need to apply very thin coats. The expose it to UV light. Sunlight is the best but you can also use a UV booth. It should take a few hours to dry to the touch. Some area don't get the direct sunlight so you may have to find a way to turn it upside down. To really dry the instrument it may require a few days. Recoats can be done after it is dry to the touch. Hope this helps.
+David Ireland Yes this answer is enough for me. thanks a lot. Another thing i want to learn is the measurement of the ingredients for varnish. How much linseed oil, pine resin, dammar resin, turpentine, lime and ash water should i use
+David Ireland How much linseed oil, pine resin, dammar resin, turpentine, lime and ash water should i use
Thanks for sharing.
What kind of soil do you apply before the first coat?
Usually a stain of black tea
Varnish was always made with varnish linseedoil.Heated to 270c, make sure you stir regularly, the oil will break at that temp.After few days you will see a floating light brown hairy stuff at the bottom,look carefully not always obvious.Strain off oil leaving this behind.Now this is Varnishoil.
Great advice....thanks
Not a varnish. Your only can make a little bit thicker oil with that method. All quality oil for varnish has to be treated with an alkali first. Not even need to cook anything when the sun can made all the "cooking" part.
Hi David. Thanks for the great video. I found it very interesting. I also read the article on the website you listed with the recipe. Rather difficult to follow, as it is a flourish of narrative rather than a simple recipe. I was wondering how you got around the 6-12 months of, I guess, making rusty turpentine? I have a feeling I will not have the patience...or air pump for that.
Thanks
Yes, making varnish can be a bit of a process...!
add red and black iron oxide?
hi thanks for the great video i was wondering what gouges do you use because i bought a cheap set of faithful ones and they are useless and dont cut through the wood like they should .
thanks again,
A
Hey madgun. I use gouges that are similar quality to the faithful. Most of the lower end chisels and gouges are made from manganese steel which is brittle and tends to blunt quickly. However they should do the job just fine you just need to sharpen them more often.
I might do a quick video for you on how I sharpen my gouges. Basically I hone and polish the inside of the gouge with wet and dry sandpaper over a dowel, then I work on the bevel on a whet stone and then polish with a leather strop. Keeping them sharp is the key.
A good intermediate gauge is a brand called stubai. If you are in OZ lookup www.thewoodworks.com.au. These will probably be my next gauge set.
The faithful gouges are very raw when you first receive them . After some grinding , polishing and stopping they are perfectly usable. I recomend looking at videos on the subject by Paul Sellars . Don't buy expensive sharpening equipment it's all elbow grease and know how .
A question ¿The pine resins can be substituted by colofonia resins?
I would avoid it as you cant always tell the quality of it. Get the purest rosins you can find.
awesome! thank you man!
Hello Mr David.
Thank you for the video. Does this varnish works well on warmer climates (Brasil)? I mean If this varnish dries, cure and make a varnish with all the carachteristics ir must have, even on warm climates? Any sugestion or tips on this, If any modification needed?
Thank you very much, greetings from Brasil.
I would not modify the recipe. What i would do is thin out the varnish more than usual using gum turpentine. Apply very thin layers to the instrument and allow extra curing/drying time between coats. This should help
David Ireland thank you very much Mr David, for the quick and helpful answer. I would like to show you my results in a few months.
See you!
7:35 what is meant by "lime"???
Awesome, thanks for share.
David, could you elaborate on the amounts used in your video? When checking out the Keith Hill link, his "recipe" creates WAY more than I'll ever need. Your video is what I want to follow.
Ingredient
WeightUnitDamar
150gramsCalophony (pine resin)
100gramsLinseed
213gramsLiquid wood ash
250gramsSlacked Line
0.6teaspoonGum Turpentine
125gramsSteps1Boil Linseed oil for 1.5 hours - darken and thicken.2Burn 250 grams of maple and spruce 3Put ash in coffee filter and filter 250 grams of water through it.4Damar & Calaphany in pot. Bring to 1005Bring to 170 and add liquid ash and slacked lime. Keep stirring6Boil off water7Bring to 280 for 10 minutes8Add linssed oil9Bring to 300 for 30 minutes and conduct string test10Heat turps to 10011Add turps while stirring12Let cool and filter through pantyhose while still warm
Awesome, thank you for taking time to respond. While watching the video, I notice your thermometer is set for celsius, are the temps in your reply C, or F? Thanks! Can't wait to give this a shot!
Sorry, I don't use Fahrenheit. You might have to convert. Just google it and it should give you the conversion....
No worries David thank you! Any chance you'll be doing a violin ground video in the future?
I'll try to do a video on ground...however I can't seem to settle on any particular one. I have tried many and still have not found one I like...!!
I've you've already got linseed oil that has been cooked, could you prepare the varnish by dissolving the rosin and linseed oil in turpentine and mixing the two together that way?
@Dongs Thanks for the reply. I gave it a shot and it works quite nicely. I've also found that adding a little pine tar can give the varnish a nice rich colour. Adding a little beeswax too results in a kind of finish/varnish that can be buffed to a bright shine.
Hi! Nice video! would tung oil instead of linseed work?
Tomson. I have never used tung oil, however I do not believe it would work the same. It has different properties than linseed oil...
At which point in the cooking process can you tell what color the violin is gonna have in the end
after you have put on about five coats
How can I finalize a fingerboard? Do I use any type of varnish to give it a shine? Can I use turpentine with linseed oil? What would be the amount? What is the healing time?
Como posso finalizar uma fingerboard? Uso algum tipo de verniz para dar bilho? Posso usar terebentina com oleo de linhaça? Qual seria a quantidade? Qual o tempo de cura?
There are a number of ways. At the moment I am using a 1:2 ratio of linseed oil and gum turpentine. Rub it into the fingerboard and wipe of excess. I dry it in a UV box and then burnish with a cotton cloth.
Hello
I was wondering how long the varnish will keep in storage? Perhaps in a tin can with sealed lid?
Thank you
So was I.
@@JacareDoQuerosene It will last for a very long time. The oils ruse with the resins so there is little chance of it going rancid. Some blow an intert gas like argon or nitrogen inside to stop further oxidiation and setting of the varnish. However if you use it regualrly you dont really need to...
Thanks for replying
hello, i am wondering if i could try to melt some rosin for the bow(lets say some mix of the light one and the darker one to achieve colour) and than mix it with boiled linseed oil...and use it like that? or the turpentine gum is essential for the mixture( i don t know what it is...)? i have one cheap,student violin that have some parts without the lacquere, i can see the wood directly(i don t think that my violine was varnished as it supposed to be)...and i would like to try to clean all that layers until the wood remains clean, and than to varnish it entirely again somehow...do you think i could use mixture of melted bow rosin and linseed oil? my buget is limited and just want to try to make it look well finished...how many layers of the varnish should be there, and if after the last one i just should wait to dry or i need to rub there? thank you!!
+truca90 Theoretically you could melt bow rosin and combine it with linseed oil. Just remember the bonding of the rosin and oil occurs at very high temperatures - 280-300c so be very careful. The gum turpentine thins out the mixture. You will need some.
Alternatively if it is a cheaper violin that you wish to re-varnish and budget is limited then you could use either a spirit varnish (see a great link here on how to make it th-cam.com/video/g0ewnWaxG-U/w-d-xo.html) or you could get get some shellac. Try it on a small area of the violin first be you cover it. You need to work quickly with the spirit varnishes because they dry very quickly.
+David Ireland thank you so much on your reply!greetings
I missed the part where you insert the sound post
Is the alkali treatment to saponify fatty acids so they won't go rancid?
yes but more to avoid any potential damage to the instrument long term
0:05 - 2:07 what is the name of the song?
Beethoven - String Trio in D Major
David Ireland Thanks
sorry Mr.david Ireland I'm from Indonesia. after varnish, how long does it dry and can it be used? thank you
This is hard to say, especially for oil varnishes.
In the first place it is very difficult to even define „dry“ for oils, since the process of setting is completely different from solvent/water based finishes.
2-3 days are often considered the minimum time to dry for each layer. But in general the results tend to be better the more time you have.
A lot depends on the quality and properties of the varnish you used too - some instruments feel tacky even weeks after. We have reports that tell us that this was even the case for the big cremonese masters.
A well known anecdote includes a letter written by stradivari to a customer of his excusing the late delivery of an instrument with the unexpectedly long time it took the varnish to dry.
Whether this was just an excuse, due to a bad batch of varnish or indeed intended i cannot tell.
whats your colophony-dammar/oil ratio?
Ingredient
WeightUnitDamar
150gramsCalophony (pine resin)
100gramsLinseed
213gramsLiquid wood ash
250gramsSlacked Line
0.6teaspoonGum Turpentine
125gramsSteps1Boil Linseed oil for 1.5 hours - darken and thicken.2Burn 250 grams of maple and spruce 3Put ash in coffee filter and filter 250 grams of water through it.4Damar & Calaphany in pot. Bring to 1005Bring to 170 and add liquid ash and slacked lime. Keep stirring6Boil off water7Bring to 280 for 10 minutes8Add linssed oil9Bring to 300 for 30 minutes and conduct string test10Heat turps to 10011Add turps while stirring12Let cool and filter through pantyhose while still warm
Do you use old growth wood (maple and spruce)?
Gary....I use seasoned, air dried tone wood from various suppliers. Yes, maple and spruce....
How long this varnish oil based have to dry?
And do you use another kind of varnish over this?
Drying time depends on how thick the varnish is and how much UV light it is exposed to. The trick is to put on thin coats and allow it to completely dry before adding another coat. Drying in the sun is excellent and takes 1-2 days. However you need to keep rotating it to ensure the sunlight covers the whole instrument. If you dry it in a UV box it can take 4-8 hours...
In my experience it is best to use only oil based varnishes on a single instrument or all spirit based varnishes. Dont mix the layers. However some makers do mix the layers with good results.!!
Thanks a lot, David.
Certainly, it'll help me on my first violin.
Can you tell me .how to make solvent base resin varnish ?
Hasan Siddiqui try this th-cam.com/video/g0ewnWaxG-U/w-d-xo.html
Why s the varnish not dry after along time?
Thin it a lot with gum turpentine and apply very thin layers. UV bake it in the sun or box.
The other reason is that the resen and the oil did not bond during the cooking of the varnish. you may need to try again....
@@direland72 Thanks you verymuch.
What's the purpose of the lime?
Skrapion Skrapion the purpose of the lime is varied as it is debatable. Some suggest that it is use to balance the acidity of the varnish. Some suggest it helps with the plasticity, and others with the oxidation. I suspect all 3 in some way.
Hello! What can we use for primer? Thank you!
+vladykohai
There are so many ways to ground a violin. this is the method I used for this violin
1. Wet the violin to raise the grain. light sanding on the maple. Scraper on the spruce. Do it twice.
2. Apply a light layer of gypsum to fill the grain. I made a batch with plaster of paris by stirring it for about a week! Very lightly sand it down after it dries.
3. 6 x teabags in a cup of water. Get it nice and dark. Apply to the violin. Take care when applying to the spruce as it tends to get darker on the end grain of the back and front curves. Do it twice. Brush it on lightly. You dont want to lift the gypsum out of the grain.
4. Using a mix of 2 parts linseed oil and 1 part gum turpentine. Apply very lightly. Like a french polish. Some people dont like linseed oil. I think if it used sparingly and allowed sufficient time to dry and cure then it is no problem..
This method darkens and "yellows" the violin so that you dont need as many colour layers.
Hope this helps.
+David Ireland Thank you! You are sooo generous! :)
I m worry about lindeed oil combustion. is it ok to use refined linseed oil?(for painting )
Yes you need to be careful about the oil catching fire. However in varnishes it is usually preferred to get the best and pure linseed oil that you can. As long as it is not "boiled" linseed or it has any other drying agents then it should be OK to be used....
David Ireland thanks from Korea!
how many layers should i put. im newbie luthier...
thin out the varnish.....usually 3-4 thin coats does the trick....
@@direland72 i dont have access to pine resin. Can violin rosin be used? I plan to melt my rosin XD im cooking varbish for a single violin only
@@rielzuad7028 I would avoid violin rosin, although it will work. The principle is to use the best resins you get get. it gives a better, lasting finish
@@direland72 i will have to make do for now. I dont have access to high grade resins here in the Philippines
that smoke coming out is the oil becoming closer to a solid.
Para que este barniz seque mas rapido p
Sorry David you stated it Damar/Pine resins doh 🙄
Nice video! I think a warning would be wise, heating these organic compounds is a fire risk! You do this outside? Do you have anything to put out a fire if something goes wrong?
Para que seque en menor tiempo puedes aplicar un poco de secante para pintura al óleo, seca de un día para otro.
Do you know how to make varnish, Vanish? ...Take away the "r". ...Kee-hee!, Hee-hee!, Hee-heeeeeee! :)
antonius stradivarius
Esvuenoinventarlaformuladelvarnisperola aerodinamicadelviolinesinportante
Very interesting. Of course resins were only used because poly hadn't been discovered. U get the exactly the same result with water based dyes and couple of coats of very thin poly. I know, blasphemus but true.
Rfv
I didn.t make the books i read them ha ha sorry
Filmagem ruim
As per usual...
Step one - apply some varnish.
Step two - throw the violin in the trash
Oh, brother. What hype. Why add ash water if it's going to be boiled out? Who would add water to oil anyway? I think this is nonsense. Would work okay because adding water and then boiling it out does nothing to damage the varnish. It's just hocus pocus. Back then these guys were all covering their tracks and probably still do.