OLD STEAM POWERED MACHINE SHOP 43 Designing a steam engine slide valve
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 6 ต.ค. 2024
- #43 in a series of videos of my steam powered machine shop that demonstrates what a typical job shop of the 1920s might have been like. Today calculations are made to design a "D" slide valve for an early 1900's steam engine that I have been rebuilding in the shop. Machine work is started in the cast iron block which will be the valve. This type of work was done in thousands of small shops across the country 100 years ago. Questions, comments and discussion about steam power, old machine shop work, line shaft belt drives, etc. are always welcome here. Thanks for watching....Dave
Dave I'm catching up on your channel, and this was the most INSIGHTFUL video on one aspect of steam engines that until now was a mystery: exactly HOW the 'timing' of the slide valves and possibly even piston valves on steam engines was figured out. I know so much about timing of events as it concerns the modern internal combustion engine, now I am learning about its predecessor, the steam engine. My interest in steam engines comes from seeing operating steam locomotives and wondering the 'secrets' of setting up the various valvegears of preserved locomotives after an overhaul. Now granted, you're only dealing with stationary engines and are not worried about being able to 'reverse' any of your shop engines or run them at reduced cut-off, but still I saw a lot in the video related to steam engine valve timing that would transfer over to valvegears on steam locomotives, from what reading in a re-print of 'The Locomotive Engineman's Manual' has taught.
That book, 'The Locomotive Engineman's Manual', dips into lap, lead, and 'events timing' of steam engines, goes into detail on them, primarily to aid the locomotive engineer with knowing when their steam locomotive has gone 'lame' due to a slipped eccentric or slipped eccentric crank and so give the engineer who's locomotive is acting up the underlying knowledge they need to re-set a slipped eccentric to a 'good enough' state to finish a trip and get the engine to a roundhouse for more extensive re-setting and repairs. Said book however does not delve into the mathematics and diagrams involved in designing a slide valve/piston valve from scratch since such knowledge is no help to the engineman who's broke down out in the middle of nowhere and needs to finish their trip, without sending a crew member to summon for a tow if possible. This video however does fill in a number of those gaps. ^^
"Pure Gold"!
A riddle inside an enigma, when trying to balance out the angularity. The charts and formulas set out by those old guys that came before, will carry their name forward for all time. Enjoyed muchly.
yeah we are standing on their shoulders when we do all our modern hi tech stuff
People were a LOT smarter when they did their own thinking.
Thanks, Dave! Glad you're one of them!
Same to you..Dave
yes they were
Having a calendar with words of wisdom and faith. God bless you and all love your website and the way you teach.
Amazing how smart those old timers were. Today's accomplishments are made possible by standing on their shoulders. Dave your videos and machine / machining knowledge is awesome. Please keep them coming.
I just want to say thank you for these videos thanks to you this trade will never disappear completely there’s very few line shaft anything left in the world much less a fully operational machine shop your videos do a better than excellent job of showing the life of a day to day machinist in the early 20th century even the late 19th really I am a newb to this type of work but the history of it and what it means to the world we live in is insane that we don’t pay so much more respect to the machines and machinist that built this world we live in these videos are excellent knowledge and awesome history so thank you again for what you do
That is complicated but you gave a good description. I have some of those old books on steam locomotives. They are real gems and sometimes hard to find. The old engineers and designers were really well-educated when the most "high tech" tools they had were slide rules, machinery handbooks, a sharp no. 2 pencil and a sharper mind.
A great lesson in graphic engineering. Many thanks! Brings back memories when "descriptive geometry" was an important engineering course.
VERY, VERY GOOD, I HAD NO IDEA THAT THE MEASUREMENTS FOR THE ENGINE COULD BE DEVELOPED FROM THE DRAWINGS, OR I HAD NEVER THOUGHT ABOUT IT. VERY FASCINATING.
I liked the long shots that showed the background and the neat blue and gold colors and the line shafts turning along with the power supply. If you aren't careful Hollywood will be calling.
And I always thought the old timers got it right by trial and error, didn't realise they had it all figured out mathematically and how complicated it really is. Really enjoyed this thanks Dave.
It was by trial-and-error. Watt's first engine didn't look anything like this. A lot of people tried a lot of things before they produced the monster locomotives of the 1940's. Come to think of it, Watt's "first" engine probably wasn't his first either.
Thank you for keeping this type of machining alive and well.
Thanks for your comment Dave....Dave
Really appreciate you taking the time to show the diagrams and explain the formulas. Thanks for another fine video Dave.
I are an old man takes me back to thr 0ld tannery steam powered shop my dad had Thanks ever so much fine business David...!
Just fascinating, Thank you David. You are a very talented teacher and a very intelligent man.
I am 77 years of age and my grate grandfather invented a automobile. The car was stem powered. I have been told, the car had a cast aluminum engine.
Watching your show I have a new found respect for the man. I was told, he was a black Smith the company name was the Riley engen company 2 horse power up.
Thank you so much for your show and a look back at stem and it was used.
Hi Michael, Would that have been Percy Riley? Quite a lot has been written about him as a developer of motorcycle and automobile engines in UK.....Dave
@@davidrichards5594 All I know is he started in Florida and changed his name to Riley, he was a big man, 6ft 2, I was told. Knowing how story's change as they get passed downed. I don't think it is the same man. The story goes he went to Colorado and that was ware my grangmother was borne. He held patients, one of witch was for a pump that pumps on the in and out struck. Byren Jacken was using it whin in the 50s, so Iwas told.
I will try to get a copy of a picture of the car. The picture was taken in Pasadena Californa.
Think you for your response
Mike
A lot more to steam engines than meets the eye. Really fascinating series and to see a final working engine. Thanks for taking the time to document and share the journey.
Thanks....Dave
Steam locomotives were going 100 mph , when cars were only going 25 mph .
They were much more advanced in that time.
I would just love to say how much I enjoy your channel. It reminds me when I was 15 and just left school.
My first job was in a workshop just like yours all machines were belt driven and my job was was at lunch time
When they shut down I had to oil all the shaft bearings, it was a big workshop making anything from steamship
piston rings to small parts for farm machines so just love your videos . At 78 now only just come across you .
Well done
Thanks George, I'm glad you found the channel....Dave
20240524y watched three sofar no way too stop..
Watching those tools breathing away together, a quite relaxing symphony in motion.
Never would have imagined how sophisticated they were.
The greengreyblue color perfect.
You could do with an oil rag hanging out back pocket.
An 8year old helper would take this setup into the future and beyond.
Hey. I would like to thank you for giving me and my fellow Advanced Manufacturing apprenticeship classmates a tour of your shop. Had a great time.
Glad you came John, to see life in the slow lane.....dave
It is so cool to see someone with your knowledge making a part for a steam engine using a steam engine to power vintage equipment in the 21 st. century. Thanks for taking the time to explain the slide valve function and timing which you thoroughly understand. I have no doubt this valve will work exactly as designed by a master machinist. Keep the vids coming.
David, one question, is the ratio of the eccentric throw to the stroke always the same?
Stuart, I don't know if there is a rule of thumb on that, but on a simple "fixed cut off" type engine it would have more to do with the port width than the stroke, and the port width (and area) would depend on the bore AND stroke. From what I've learned, the port area is the first calculation valve design. Maybe some model builder viewers can get into that deeper....Dave
Never thought I would see a steam engine reverse engineered! Enjoyed every minute of it.
Love the Audels books--I have the carpenter's and electrical series, plus a millwright and mechanics guide, and finally the machinist's handy book. All great stuff. Thanks as always for sharing.
I have watched all your videos, Dave, and this, again, is your best yet...
Thanks Bob, you are a true enthusiast....Dave.
Love this! If you were to design a steam shop system class, I would pay good American Dollars to come up and take it
Nathan: You are already enrolled right here, and it's free, Thanks for watching...Dave
Math, math and more math, geometry and more. Very interesting and can't wait to see it in action. I wish kids could or would watch this series of videos to encourage them to excel in math and science. Even bricklayers use a lot of math, that would be my trade. Thanks, Greg.
Charles: 19th century masons always struck me as being artists...Dave
I concur with most of your fans and want to thank you for including the calculations. I have always wondered how the valve was developed. Great vid as usual.
Another great video. I have spent over 8 hours this weekend attempting to set up the slide valves on my 1/3 full size De Winton vertical boiler loco and finally with the help of a friend this afternoon we managed to run it for about 3 miles , but it still needs a lot of fine tuning. Both this video and the preceding video have helped me to understand how it all works.
Great, that sounds interesting...Dave
The geometry is enlightening. Like the FEBT cap, nice touch.
@26:00 lovely sound of how the cast is cutting and later @32:20 a lovely soundscape of the shop running.
Very interesting David. This helped me wrap my head around lead and lag.
Your best yet Dave....totally fascinating...even for an engineer that geometry exercise is awesome and anything but intuitive.
Great explanation!!! I can't wait to see the finished product. Thank goodness for old books, otherwise the knowledge of how to manually do these things would be lost. CAD is really great, but understanding what goes on behind the "click" sure is nice to know!!! Thanks for what you do!!!
I enjoyed seeing the full size version of that camel back drill press. Its quite a bit larger than the 6" tall version I just built.
HI Joe, I enjoy your channel, thanks for the comment......Dave
Hard to express how much i love seeing the old school tools and machines applied in these videos. Love seeing the steam powered shaper run as well. Thanks for keeping it old school.
Terry, I gotta laugh sometimes thinking about keeping it "old". I pick up a tool and think, is this "old school", I've been using it since I was 8, yup it is...Dave
Dave, you would make one hell of a geometry teacher for 8th grade through 12th grade /High School and probably mechanical engineer class at the college level. You have the unique ability to break down complex problems into understandable explanations that a common person can understand. Secondly you have the mechanical knowledge and ability to build a part that matches your answer/solved problem! We need to figure out a way to duplicate you about a 1000 times each year. Great Video.
Thanks Ed, I actually liked geometry......Dave
you are one of my favorite machinists on youtube, I watch all the other guys too but really look forward to your uploads,thanks for the time and effort
Thanks, that's a very "high end" crowd to be associated with...Dave
Wow I just found your channel and watching some older vids. Great interesting stuff and your shop is amazingly active. A real MAN'S shop, things moving all over the place. Looking forward to more vids.
Thanks, we try to keep active discussions here too....Dave
It still amazes me just how quiet steam power machines shops are. It also amazes me just how often you need to oil and grease tools.
Excellent explanation on the slide valve geometry. I've studied it many times but never had to make one. Now I understand it, thanks.
Another fascinating video. That was a great lesson on timing the piston. Enjoyed watching you set up and run the shaper. Thanks for sharing this video.
Hi Robert: The shaper will get a lot of time on this part...Dave
Love the intro music Dave. Ya just can't beat the motion of old time machinery, wonderful camera angles, the only down side is the repetitive rhythmic sound that is created can put you to sleep if your long in the tooth and near the end of the day. Regards/greg
Nice job on figuring out the slide valve. Enjoyed.
Thanks. Always enjoy. Love steam.
That was fascinating. I have seen these diagrams before, but you brought them to life. And now we get to see the slide valve made. I can hardly wait.
Thank you for the education on the slide valve. That was very good. And those shots of the line shaft, belting and shifting to shut off the shaper were a hoot. Lots of great shots. Thank you. Thank yo
Didn't realize how complex a steam engine was, don't fully understand your explanation , but very enjoyable watching, thanks for putting these video's up Dave.
Dave I had no idea that a slide valve was so complex. Thank you for explaining it in such a way as to give us an understanding of the importance of this thing being right.
If it is not right you will hear it and feel the engine complaining, sometimes hard or it can be very hard to detect, but Dave will adjust it or scrap it and back to the drawing board
These things were developed by men without a PhD in mechanical engineering.
GREAT VIDEO !!! SHOP = TOOOO COOOOL ! WHEELS LOOK GREAT !
Hi, great video. When I see your shaping machine it reminds me of my apprenticeship days when we made a cast iron vice as a project. I must be getting old as I have also worked a Planing machine, huge vertical borers and horizontal borers. I wonder how many people now days know of Turret Lathes, Capstain Lathes, peg board lathes and multi spindle lathes and gang cutters on Milling machines. I did my time on those machines and also NC's from punch tape to computers that is how fast machining has progressed. You always love machining. I am 57
Hi Charlie, Not many people that young have had that kind of machining experience.....Dave
I'm right there with you, well, actually a little further down the road in my seventies now and retired since '04'. Similar background with receiving my apprenticeship in the Canadian Navy with everything from scraping multi-land super-heated steam high pressure connection flanges and progressing in later jobs through Numerical Control courses using Apt and Ad-apt even some old Cobol programming. You are spot on with the trade progress being remarkable in such a relatively short period of time.
I agree completely with the satisfaction we get from watching a guy like David take us back to those line shaft belt drive days of your and even more so using steam power.
A piece of saskatoon pie, a cup of tea and the old steam powered machine shop. Saturday night at home. Can't beat it.
Always something interesting on TH-cam. Turn off the TV...Dave
No t.v. here and hasn't been since they went vhf. NOT missed at all. Get to watch YOU!
No TV here either. Can't see the point somehow.
It was simply moronic years ago and I know from then it hasn't gotten any better by just looking at how things are going. No thanks. I like being able to pick and choose.
I'm also getting on in years a bit and tend to fall asleep if I sit idle for too long. I blame it on 48 years of shift work LOL. Anyway it's nice to be able to go back and watch the bits you missed when you wake up.
Awesome video. It’s nice to see Paper and pencils engineering.
love the bilgram explanation still a bit lost but at least i have a compass in the woods now lol . love watching the old machines run trying to set up a similar shop my self perhaps on steam one day.
I look forward to the further machining of that Valve block .Thanks again for an excellent ,interesting video David .
Thanks Dave !
This episode sheds a LOT of LIGHT on the valve operation . In this insane , 'high speed' , instant gratification world; it's good to see some intentionally well thought out , one step at a time process . . . where the end result will be working for another hundred years ! "V"
Thanks George, I guess we'll see when we get there....Dave
my new favorite show. your shop views of old machines its great. thanks for doing this.
I can't wait to hear it run!
Me too Bob...dave
Very Interesting that someone was able to figure that formula out back in the day.
Great tutorial and demonstration of the Bilgram valve diagram. This steam engine series is very interesting. Thank you.
Looking forward to seeing the fabrication of the slide valve. Don't leave it to long.
Great video. I watched #42 and this one twice just make sure I got all your valve timing explanations.. Thanks.
Thanks for sharing that Dave. Interesting to see the old technologies and how they are implemented, obviously not by guess work but on solid principles worked out long ago.
I love to see those old machines work.
Another really great video. Thanks
Brilliant explanation of the design process Dave, thank you. I enjoyed all the video but really enjoyed the changing exhaust beat as the governor did its thing.
Really enjoyed the diagrams and explanation. I have an old engineering book that describes the diagrams but never needed to try one out. Thanks for the example!
I just love watching his shop work.
Been watching the progress on this engine since the beginning.
Loved the pencil & paper explanation & math on how the valving works.
Its one thing to make an engine go but quite another to make it right.
A great little piece in there about your Dad, I really liked that.
Great to see so many Subs now, & it's no wonder to me as to why, you have a unique relaxed style.
Keep 'em coming Dave.
Thanks for that.....Dave
Another enjoyable video and you really helped me understand the valve timing on this that has always left me head scratching. SO its a good feeling when it finally clicks.
Just got onto Ebay Audels volume 1to7.
Good timing as about to draw up a 300mm dia reciprocating low temp inline air displacer, heat retrieval for a product that has a foot in the past and foot in the future. Had it running for fourty years 6 hours aday so time to put it’s offspring on the world market.
Most Excellent Vid….
Outstanding work! Cannot wait to see it run! I would just like to say how very much I enjoy your videos Dave.
Brings back memories of my studying for for a first class steam license. Wish I had those books way back then.
Hi Ed: Would that have included ships as well as stationary power?....Dave
No marine just stationary steam ,power plants. All tho we did study marine boilers it all ties together engines and boilers.
Another fantastic video! Thanks Dave. It's great to see the engine coming together from a pile of rusty parts. I finally found that babit grooving chisel. I'll forge a few replicas and get it in the mail to you.
That was really fun to watch! Reminds me of working with my Dad when I was young.
Love that drill press
You absolutely astound me with the level of knowledge you possess, it's doctorate level. Even more astounding is the practical application of that knowledge demonstrated in a way that a layman can follow.
You sir, are something in a class by its self. It would be a safe bet that there are not many people around who could design and build a slide valve for a steam engine in this day and age.
Thanks Phil, but everything you need to know can be found in the old manuals, you just have to "read up" on it...Dave
David, I can smell the oil and steam already! It will be such a joy to see your engine run. It is a testament to your knowledge and skill. Thank you for your excellent videos and the knowledge you pass on from the past to be enjoyed by the present and future generations. Best Wishes n Blessings. Keith Noneya
Thanks Keith, still learning.....Dave
As always great video. Loved the explanation and diagrams, that showed how you arrived at a valve size.
Nice work.
David, I've watched all of your episodes but that had to be the most interesting one, better than the governor tare down. Thank you for explaining the diagram.
Thanks again Craig, I'm glad you are interested, so I must be on the right track....Dave
Very interesting and enjoyable. Thank you for sharing Dave
Glad you're watching Yann....Dave
I missed this one Dave , Sorry man !! ENJOYED .. Great info on that slide valve.. Next time metal comes off
Really enjoyed!
This is so cool, love the sounds of the shop
Loved the work holding on the drill
I was so relieved to see at 28:21 that you’d put an elbow and extension on the steam exhaust. Was worried about the wood siding.
Thanks for explaining how this is done.
Awesome explanation it is all clear to me now
Looking forward to the next one 👍
Thanks again Dave, enjoyed as always! Will
That was an amazing process figuring out that valve Dave , Another great video !
Hi John: Just plugging in the data...Hugo is the "man"....Dave
Hi Dave, many thanks for this series on the 1900 engine. Finally i have been able to some an explanation with supporting theory. There is a huge amount of content on steam loco valve timing but nothing on steam engines/ traction engines.
I have a 3" Fowler traction engine that i need to set the valve timing on, and nowhere can i find what the lead angle is. Now i can sit down and make a scale drawing of the various events and hopefully get her in steam.
Yours Andy
Just lay out the events on the flywheel and you can see where you should be,,,,,Dave
David Richards Will do. If there a rule of thumb or nominal distance/lead angle for the steam inlet BTDC?
Thank you so much for this video. I think it is one of the best you have ever made so far. I really enjoyed the explanation in the beginning and I'm going to see that part serveral times to make sure I got it all right.
Thanks again Jens...Dave
Cool video Mr. Richards , love your shop , from over her in Penn Yan N. Y. !
Not far, thanks for watching....Dave
MR, RANDY , STEAM E NGR MY SELF AND SET UP MANY SLIDES VALVES, GREAT JOB ,I STILL HAVE MY AUDELL STEAM BOOKS I USED MOSTLY FOR STUDY' NICE SHOW CARL DEFILIPPO...……………………..
Great video thank you!
Excellent, thanks Dave.
One is left in awe of the methods used to discover the "hidden" principles hiding in plain sight such as the Conservation of Energy, which some mathematically adept Engineers might have associated with Euler's e-Pi-i sync-duration, 1-0 oscillation and 1-zero-infinity containment in i-reflection wave-particle nodal-vibrational location in mechanical cycles.
I'm particularly impressed by Nomographs tracking pressure, volume and displacement or rpm. The simplicity of this is why "hiding in plain sight" is a probabilistic mosaic pattern of empirical shaping laws in the 3D-T landscape.
In this way we take designs from Natural Events, ..Geometrical Drawing and Perspective Projection Techniques applied to Observable self-defining Symbology.
(Fun to imagine.., real-time Sciencing Re-search Technique plus the Thought Experimentalist's practical Intuition makes Actual, look, listen, hear and see real-time Intelligence, not Artificial or Theoretical guessing that is)
Great stuff mate , those calipers are also called Jenny calipers , cheers .
Max, I've never heard that one, is it a UK term?...Dave
possibly the name came from UK , but thats generaly what we call them here in Austraila & New Zealand .
David; I suspect there's a lot of us old timers who would pay for the privilege of enjoying the nostalgia to just sit outside your shop door to take in the sounds and smells while drinking bottom of the pot black coffee.
The coffee isn't that bad, I put in some new every couple of days....Dave
Very interesting Dave, and well done on working it all out. Having no experience of steam timing when I made my model a couple of years ago, I likened it to a 2 stroke with 4 infinitely variable means of timing. Of course 1 of those was fixed by TDC/BDC. The other by the spool valve I made, size of holes etc. I got it running, but after modifying and fine tuning for ages, got it to run on half the pressure it required at the start.
Hi Malc: That's the kind of trial and error stuff that got things done...Dave
Thanks Dave. Yes it is, and how the books were written in the first place. Mind you, without considerable experience of internal combustion, would have struggled a lot more.
this is amazing stuff! just discovered your channel. I always remember going to the motocross races in N.V. and you just blowing everybody away at the start with that Rokon you had.
Hi Tim, good to hear from you. Man, we sure need a great sign artist here again. The Rokon was pretty quick out of the hole....Dave