Just in case anyone is wondering, the next Battlestorm Stalingrad video (Episode 30) should be out next week. Also th-cam.com/video/SkUkiZBWOlc/w-d-xo.html
All you have to do is compare Zhukov's brilliance at Khalkhin Gol with Vatutin Zhukov got promoted and not purged because of his brilliant performance at Khalkhin Gol. He's clearly a better tank general than Vatutin, one of histories best generals in fact.
Well according to HOI4, Vatutin is skill level 3 with traits such as "reckless" and "infantry officer" vs Manstein's skill level 4 with "brilliant strategist", "armor officer", "trickster" and "engineer" traits, case closed.
@@internetstrangerstrangerofweb I disagree with you sir, the amount of fools that might appear to consider the argument valid is too high, therefore it must be maintained.
Tik, I stumbled across your TH-cam site about a month ago. I’ve found it to be a superior site in the history of the Eastern Front. You magnificently explain each key battle and the strengths of key leaders on the German and Russian sides. I became an instant subscriber.
Welcome onboard! Yeah, my intention here (as one old subscriber said once) is to be "super-accurate and filthy detailed", whilst also not being shy about providing a verdict. So if you like in-depth history, you're in the right place 👍
Indeed there are other good WWII series. But TIK`s videos in fact are superior to all because of two reasons: 1.) he is best evaluating the reliability of soures, 2.) he makes brilliantly clear why decisions were made on the personal/individual level.
Yup, actual critical thinking, something that is being traded out for instant reactions based off emotions, not facts...at least here in the United States.
Vatutin made mistake at third Harkov. He misinterpret Mansteins intentios beliving he is in retrit. Popov paid the price. But he learned from this defeat and never again did same mistake. His best action was moving Rybalkovs tank army from Bukrin bridgehead north to Lyutezh in the end of 1943. Becouse of that Kiev was lost for Manstein who didnt detected this move. And in proces all Dneper campaign was victorius for Vatutin and Red army. This was a masterpice of planning, deception and logistics.
As a Polish person I am a bit surprised UPA is such a completely unknown subject in the West. But I also must admit it was very smart of you to not touch that can of worms. (and, as you may guess, yes, there is also Polish perspective on the subject)
@@jayjayson9613 Here I can save you a long read- "Most of the victims were women and children. Many of the Polish victims regardless of age or gender were tortured before being killed; some of the methods included rape, dismemberment or immolation, among others. The UPA's actions resulted in between 50,000 and 100,000 deaths."
Idk about this Mr. TIK. I read in a book, "Lost Victories" that Manstien is the greatest general ever. Anx I can't imagine any reason for the author of that book to be biased. So it must be true.
@@TheImperatorKnight Our Corps Commander, who art in headquarters. Hallow be thy tanks. Thy Wehrmacht come, Thy orders be followed on the battlefield as is in wargames.
@@TheImperatorKnight Idt the author ever described Von Manstein as "Lord of the Universe" verbatim. But that is how the author portrays him. All Mastein's successes were due to his genius and all his failures were due to madman Hitler. If only. If only.
@CipiRipi00 Manstein is right and lucid in stating that Manstein's lost victories were right there already taken, if only madman Hitler and the SS didn't screw the holy Wehrmacht If only if only indeed!
TIK, you forgot to mention Rokossovski's part in Bagration, and don't forget, he not only got the better of the Germans but stood his ground vs. Stalin in the planning phase. I suspect this was far more dangarous than the actual battle. And he was on a roll after that all the way to Berlin.
@@kagtavieponi9722 Honestly, that particular dispute (yes, I know what ya'll are on about) is a tad bit tricky to pin down since multiple different versions of it exist from different historians with pretty good arguments for each. There's no doubt that Rokossovsky did a great job at Bagration and beyond.
@@901Sherman Recently, it became known exactly what happened with a high degree of probability, due to the log of visits to Stalin's office and during the repeated comparison of memoirs and documents. Rokosovsky was not honest in this case.
@@kagtavieponi9722 The real question is what was Stalin's real standing on the whole thing? It's well known that he wasn't a big fan of something as overly complicated or ambitious like the one being presented for the southern most portion of Bagration (especially after how similar operations in the early war failed epically). And while he was more willing to have commanders exercise their freedom and flexibility of action during the 3rd period of the war (1943-45), he still had some say in how operations went. Taking this all into account, he most certainly would've opposed what the STAVKA wanted and might have even backed the reluctant Rokossovsky. Hell, Konev's plans for the later Lvov-Sandomierz Operation were just as ambitious and from what I've read, it took a while for Stalin to be convinced (of course, not without reminding Konev that failure would be dealt with harshly).
@@901Sherman I do not have my own opinion on this matter, I am not an expert, but those whom I trust associate Stalin's decisions on operations with domestic politics. He wanted to expel the Germans from the USSR as soon as possible, without resorting to large-scale encirclement operations. Although, in general, he was not against such an outcome, for example, the encirclement of the 6th Army of Paulus at Stalingrad, how long it fought and what pain in the ass until the last days, and what forces it attracted. myself. Considering that in 1943 the Germans were able to get out of the encirclement, although not without losses, this gave Stalin reason to doubt the encirclement operations. However, he did not dream of an easy victory. In fact, the victory at the age of 44 still seemed distant, the Germans were still not far from Leningrad, the feeling that he was about to win did not arise. Therefore, he would have preferred simpler but working solutions.
Yeah, saint Halder or Manstein, underlined by "But is this really the case?". Loving it. Madman Hitler would be even better, but that has some seriously bad conotations :D
Some points on the north and the south of the Kursk salient. I drove through these parts in a car and I saw the landscape there with my own eyes. I must tell you that there are lots of ravines in the north with lots of streams, and some forests as well. The terrain is very difficult for tanks to operate. While in the south, the land is as flat as a pancake. Or as a table as the saying goes here in Russia. I think the books on the battle of Kursk mention this fact. So it's no wonder the Germans saw some advance in the south regardless of who was defending it. On the UPA: the obvious lie is that Ukrainian historians claim the UPA "fought against two totalitarian regimes" while in fact they never attacked the Germans.
The point is you want an unbiased source at best. For instance, I as Jew have a hard time talking about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict simply because I am biased. There is no shame in this. If you are Russian, mostly, you are biased in favour of Russia. While outside sources paint a different picture. The only way to verify events is if an outside source confirms it. The best is if both sides of a conflict confirm it. But that is rarely the case in minor events. The UPA was a force of Ukrainians only fighting for Ukrainians. I think at best we can say they were not friendly to either the Germans or the Russians. And probably since they were insurgents attack targets of opportunity.
@@dgray3771 Ошибаешься, парниша, Пальцем в небо ты попав. Коль не знаешь - будь потише, Почитай УПА устав. Там записан другом Гитлер, Коммунисты все - враги. Дети - тоже. Сопли вытри. Ты поляк, еврей? Беги! Это сборище бандитов И маньяков, и воров. Мирных жителей убито Ими было - будь здоров! Кто они как не фашисты, Не посланцы Сатаны? В голове у Вас не чисто. Пропаганды Вы полны.
The obvious lie - is those russian narratives you trying to spread. UPA definitely fought against Germans. You better tell us about ROA who supported Nazi. And now russia holdes flag of ROA as a state flag
@@johan5293 Ну ты Ваня отчебучил! Устыдись, смирясь. Увы. Раз ломает - дунь-ка лучше Ты ещё своей травы. Ты, как жертва пропаганды, Хоть она вконец тупа, Назови (ну очень надо) Битвы армии УПА, Где они, хоть тыщу немцев Стёрли в мелкий порошок. Нет, не тот, коль присмотреться, На носу твоём ещё... Для РОА есть все причины. Оправданий, впрочем - нет. Древний флаг свой осквенили Выродки за пару лет. Находить в УПА героев Недоразвитой страны - Явно в психике расстроен Мозг. Лечиться вы должны.
I once talked with a German tank gunner who had faced that Soviet tank charge at Provhorovka. He said that he didn't need to aim his gun, only fire it in the enemy's direction as soon as it was loaded, and had a hit every time.
A lot of tank pictures this week - well done. You obviously needed that break to come round to my way of thinking. Forget the economics and show the tracks! In all seriousness you are looking well, putting 100% into it all the time is not a stratergy for longevity. A little planned laziness is often a good idea.
"A little planned laziness is often a good idea." This is definitely something I need to get my head around. I need to accept the fact that I can't just work 10 hours a day EVERY day of the year 😣
@@TheImperatorKnight You've got to have rest or it's the law of diminishing returns. Various friends of mine have worked long hours, including weekends & taking a sleeping bag into work......All got physical & mental health issues. My hours did me no favours either. Please take this as advice from a 'friend', & like many others on here, who doesn't want to see you get ill. Thank you.
Tik l give you 1 million pounds if vatutin is more the best than manstein.... Manstein is architect how to defeated france 🇫🇷 ..... So and something other if manstein himself would commanded the 4 army on stalingrad.... Now the world would be Germany 🇩🇪....
@@_antike_cdo_gje489 You may be correct about France, but at Stalingrad, Manstein, like the other German Commanders can't make fuel, ammo, food, & reinforcements out of nothing - they just weren't getting through, & slowly wasting away. The German Commanders, by saying Stalingrad had almost fallen, made it seem to Hitler/General Staff, that the Stalingrad front didn't need priority supplies, while the Soviets were putting more & more into the region. This was why the Axis were so weak when the Soviets did their attack. Manstein may have done 'better' at Stalingrad than other German Generals, but the region is very large, & he is only one small part of it.
Katukov, Rokossovsky, Malinovsky, Rybalko - my favorite tacticians and commanders. TIK you are a go to expert on WW2 Eastern Front. Thumbs for everything you do.
Vatutin was a good general for the USSR. Manstein was good for Germany. Neither can be understood outside the environment of their respective armies and nations. Neither would have been viable in the other army. Also, as the Red Army proved, a rock with lips could succeed for them, while the Germans proved that no one could succeed for them.
You can't say that neither could have commanded the other army. Nobody knows that. I mean sure, Stalin would have executed Manstein for being a Nazi but I don't think that is what you meant.
@@Jordan-Ramses I dont think Manstein would have been a Nazi if he had grown up in the Soviet Union. He was an opportunist. But I too think that Manstein would have been purged under Stalin, because he was far too independent-minded in military matters. Also, Mansteins style would not have worked in the Red Army, because the Red Army never taught independent thinking to its junior officers, so at the first sign of trouble, an offensive would halt because nobody dared to take the initiative. Also, we cannot know how Vatutin would have fared in the Wehrmacht for the same reasons. The Wehrmacht was fundamentally different from the Red Army in its entire structure.
Tik, good work on your video last week with the Battle of the Atlantic. Collingham was a good read when I went through her book last year. Had to put Gotz Aly’s book aside for now. It’s good, just very dense with economic terms. Cheers from the other side of the pond.
"It’s good, just very dense with economic terms." Interesting! See, I enjoy economics so I didn't pick up on this when I read it, but you pointing it out makes me realize that a lot of people won't understand a lot of economic terms. Which terms did you struggle with? But yes, I'm glad to hear you enjoyed last week's video, and Collingham's book. There needs to be more said on the economics side of the conflict, and her book really helped bridge some gaps.
@@TheImperatorKnight Hey Tik, I suppose terms like, “Escrow,” and the taxation methods of the Third Reich to start. Aly does Barney style in his summaries, so I get his overall message. I grew up reading military history, so logistics and military terms I can pick up a bit faster than economic or political history. Not that I’m helpless on it, just slower. Collingham’s book was helpful. I’m currently between Frederick Taylor’s book on Dresden and Robert Forczyk’s ,”Case White,” I like Bob’s work; I find him very opinionated and disagree with some of his opinions.
As usual, you do a great job with these videos. In von Manstein's case you have done a great job (previously) of knocking him off his high horse of great generaldom. Nevertheless, your well done effort to "set the record straight" seems to have turned into a personal vendetta against Herr Erich. But thanks for annoying me (and others). We need to have our preconceived conclusions upset every now and again.
At Kursk Rokossovsky was given a lot more artillery since the Stavka thought the main strike would be there. That is why the Germans had less success there. Secondly, a job of a commander is to concentrate the most forces where the enemy is the weakest, that is to get himself into position where he has as much numerical advantage as possible. So if a general gets overwhelmed, this means that either he or his superiors failed to detect enemy concentration and failed to prepare. So it is their fault to be overwhelmed. And on the other side if a general has amassed enough numbers, without the enemy seeing, then he has done his job well.
Rokossovsky also had a geographical advantage because in the northern sector of Kursk is a heavy forested area with just relatively small area of terrain fitted for big tank formation so Rokossovsky didn't need to defend the whole line just part off it. In the southern sector it was the open step which means that the Nazi's could go in any direction it was harder to defend the line there.
Hope you had a relaxing break from all your hard work and history chronicles. Glad to see you back in action though. A terrific WW2 history channel that i tell all my military enthusiast friends to check out. Cheers from Canada and welcome back.
Black humour as it is, I think there's some point in the joke. What I read in Russian is that Vatutin and his guards while driving in a car (or a couple of cars) were attacked by an ambush of a small bunch of insurgents. No one was wounded in the nitital attack. But instead of leaving the place ASAP they decided to engage (was it Vatutin's order? I wonder). That's when the General was mortally wounded. If they transferred him to Moscow at once, he might have made it but precious time was lost. A string of stupid decisions.
Oh boy I really, really look forward to watching this! Thanks TIK! Edit: Before you very correctly explained that it is basically impossible to compare two generals, I got really annoyed by how easily Vatutin earned his points 😂 Altogether I don't know enough about Vatutin to really form an opinion on him, although he was certainly a very good general for the Red Army. Manstein's exploits are well known, and what I consider remarkable about him is that he was adaptive in different circumstances, be it plan an entire strategic offensive or command troops at corps, army or army group level, or bust a fortress, or whatever. Manstein's exploits look more impressive, but you should not forget that the Wehrmacht was basically heaven for commanders like him, because of their Auftragstaktik they could pull off stunts like the French campaign. Manstein would probably not have survived Stalin's purges if things were reversed, and we really cannot know how Vatutin would have fitted into the Wehrmacht.
Hands down my favourite historian on youtube. The Stalingrad series is amazing. I’ve watched 11 episodes in two days. Keep series like that one going please. Perhaps on the battle for Greece or some other more obscure and forgotten battle.
Great video, like you stated all generals have their strengths and weaknesses. It's possible to make a list of the best generals but it's impossible to say which one is best overall.
Bottom line: Somebody wiped out most of the Poles from former Eastern Poland, and half of it is now Western Ukraine.If not UPA, then who, since that happened during German occupation? Remaining ones are relocated after the war to former Eastern German territories.
The Germans targeted the Poles during the war. Snydor talks about this in "Blood Lands", but there's an article on Wikipedia too en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_crimes_against_the_Polish_nation#Ethnic_cleansing_through_forced_expulsion
@@TheImperatorKnight UPA was a terrorist organization targeting mostly Polish civilians. Germans did many crimes on Polish nation, but the way people in Volhynia and Red Rhutenia died after invasion of Soviet Union by Germany doesn't fit neither Russian nor German memo. For sure, both commited genocide on those lands, but UPA seems as likely a perpetrator as either considering their pre-war terroristic history and documented crimes against civilian population in early WW2. I know you just don't have the information, so it's not your fault for jumping to German conclusion, especially as it's the main narrative in the West, but I'd advise to refrain from being snarky on such topics when, as admitted, you don't have proper information. As for a Pole as myself, it's just sad that pur cousins from Ukraine decided to venerate the terrorists, bandits and monsters from UPA instead of the long list of great national heroes from their pre-interwar history. But I guess the fact that many of them were also Polish or served Commonwealth just doesn't sit right with some of them who just want to see Polish blood spilled.
@@TheImperatorKnight Ukrainian nationalists (including UPA) are responsible for systemic ethhnic cleansing in Eastern Poland (nowadays Western Ukraine). Read more on Volhinia / Wołyń operations in 1943-1944 where over 100 thousand Polish civilians were murdered.
@@Ussurin So you are blaming a large scale effective genocide on a loose separatist movement when there were two dictatorships who hated the Poles with a passion vying for Polish lands? Occam's Razor says you are wrong since we don't have unbiased sources. Personally it seems like the war and German/Soviet atrocities had left Eastern Polish lands (which were not only Polish...) quite empty, after that Stalin wanted to play the most popular imperialist game called "Lets rewrite maps on a whim!" which resulted in modern borders, remaining Poles were forcibly relocated to new polish lands. I'm not especially against the idea of UPA doing what you claim but it just seems like a really long stretch, I do believe they did do some atrocities since nationalism leads to that sort of thing, especially with the times.
I think you were a bit harsh on Rokosovsky, TIK, even the Mighty Manstein could not have performed a miracle commanding the clusterfucks that were the Soviet mechanized corps at Dubno. After all, he got beaten later on with far better organized and superior forces. Any Soviet general who seemed to have cared for his troops and not deploy them Melchet style is a good one in my book. If I were a Soviet soldier in particular.
@@cccpredarmy Most Soviet generals were quite ruthless in deploying their men. Either because of incompetence, fear of Stalin's retribution if not carrying out his orders or just not giving a damn. Or all 3 combined. And the Red Army carried out a LOT of Melchet style operations in 1941 and 1942. Operation Mars is a textbook Melchet style operation. Go search for David Glantz's lecture on 'forgotten' Red Army battles of WW2.
@@chaptermasterpedrokantor1623 "Most Soviet generals were quite ruthless in deploying their men" - sauce "Operation Mars is a textbook Melchet style operation" - 70353 vs 53500 KIA against far superior enemy is for you "Melchett style"? Is David Glantz and his conclusions the mother of all sources?
What rubbish! If Manstein had commanded Soviet forces at Dubno, within 3 days he's have been driving into Berlin at the head of a huge column of 1000 tanks, with the Red Army choir singing behind him and 3 million adoring German civilians lining the streets waving the red flag. 😇
Didn't Manstein want to start Operation Citadela couple of months earlier instead of waiting for the Panther Tanks which most broke down. Vatutins equaliser has been referred to VAR. 👍
@@b4nterontilt245 Don't agree, the Russians made in that time the biggest defences they had ever built, this is why Model barely made any headway in the North.
@@gordy3714 but germans were much deployed earlier and also didn't have much strenght either they could atack earlier but result would be probably same.
I must admit I was totally confused and baffled until the end. Your comparison did not make sense, so you got me. Thank you for sharing. Have a great week.
For those interested in the UPA and the death of Vatutin, Prit Buttar's "Retribution" goes into detail on both subjects. He provides a modern perspective on the subject and shows both soviet and german period and post war views. Edit: I had the wrong book in the series.
Ignoring their terroristic history pre-War is probably as bad as being heavily biased towards either Soviets or UPA. You cannot understand their role in war without knowing how Ukrainian nationalists made everyone around them hate them. Like, even the most pro-slavic federation groups in Eastern Europe couldn't find in themself to treat them anything other than evil.
@@Ussurin Right, they were just anarchic murderers of us Poles, having fun while doing it, trying new ways of killing, the evilest ways noone could ever imagine.
I will go Manstein over Vatutin. It's Manstein skill as an operational commander and how he can visualize space and time. Also he does more with less. A "What if" is what would have happened if the Kursk offensive was not undertaken and it was the Soviets who attacked first as it was a course of action not to attack the Kursk Salient.
All your Videos are very interesting, really. Thank you so much! I hope you doing good and that the break helped you to relax and decrease the stress level. Edit: Just realised that you uploaded a Video last week, wich didn't show up in my inbox on YT for whatever reason. Lucky me, more to watch. 👍
These looks at non Battlestorm issues really are terrific and additive. You also seemed more energetic. So whatever gets you to feeling better, do it! And thanks.
For UPA perhaps a good overview, but a somewhat short one, can be found in Harvest of Despair - Life and Death in Ukraine Under Nazi Rule by Karel C. Berkhoff, its not just about them, but I think it gives decent information on it, and it's not written by a Ukrainian, but rather by a Dutch historian
UPA is fascist organisation not because of Soviet propaganda or their cruelty but because of concept of their ideology which was very popular in Europe during that time.
When your doctrine is based on "dance like a butterfly and sting like a bee", retreating all the way to Berlin is still a both tactically and strategically superior alternative to plant your feet in the ground and hope that watching Rocky 1-5 will let you take the clobbering. Yes, those oilfields in Caucasus would been nice to have, but since they are out of reach regardless, let's look at the options available, shall we?
I've read the biography of K K Rokossovsky, and within my limited knowledge of Soviet generals he seems a real contender as the best. Less of a thug than Zhukov too...
Rokossovsky was a Pole not Russian. He could not and did not stay out of the" harvest of 37", while Zsukov actually held head down. I would find it an interesting topik, which general after the Tuhacsevszkij era was to be considered the best. Within the Red Army, actually. And another contest could fill video(s) on who the best Axis general would have been. A bit apart from the Eastern Front, waw Rommel better than Montfomery or Patton? God knows.
I had heard that at Prokhorovka, one of the reasons for the losses of the Soviet tanks included said tanks driving into one of their own antitank ditches. This is something modern Russian academics deny, but the reports were clear. As a consequence, the source documents have been removed from scrutiny. My source for this? None other than Al Murray's podcast "We have ways of making you talk," with James Holland.
I love this. I have been wondering about this for ages. I have long thought Vatutin as an intriguing character, difficult to find good info about. Thanks TIK ;)
In this face-off, I must throw in with Manstein. While his tanks enjoyed superior firepower, he did not have the number of tanks Vatutin had, and he knew it. His decisions were thus tempered by his concern about not having ready replacements. He was experiencing supply shortages as well. Some of his notable victories on the Eastern Front resulted from some risk-taking; he no longer enjoyed that freedom.
Vatutin was complicated. He was a bulldog. He was bit like Churchill on a much lower level. His first instinct was to attack, even when it was not the most effective plan. It was hard for him to sit on the defensive on the south face of the Kursk salient for so many months, but on the offensive following he was not nearly as efficient as Rokossovsky, for one example. It would be easier to judge his overall generalship if he had lived longer.
Usually attacking is the best defence. Because the defender is defending what he has and isn't focussing on what you have. The fluidity of modern warfare made that different though. Attacking too much will simply waste your troops and resources and gain you nothing. Pyrrhus learned that lesson the hard way. You can win too much and gain nothing.
I sort of wondered why Soviet losses were so high. I ran across a video where they interviewed German tank crews. They stated they had extensive gunnery training at different ranges and angles while planning on using terrain to site their positions. While the Soviets put untrained crews in who simply charged straight on.
Vatutin had a bunch of quality competition Marshal Rokosovsky Marshal Konjev General Katukov 1st Tank Guards Army Vatutin was a good strategist, but he is worse as a tactician Dig in of tanks near Kursk is General Katuk's idea he demanded that the counterattack order be changed to a trench defense As Katukov says "The Germans have more tanks than me, they are heavier and they shoot from a greater distance Let's dig in tanks and prepare ambushes " Vatutin and Stalin approved the rest is history
@@BlueMax109 The Germans did not have more tanks than the Russians in total, but they had more than one Russian tank army in the narrow area of penetration
Thanks TIK, i look forward to Mondays because of your videos, they are awesome, this wasn't your best video but even so far more informative than anything else out there, well done, I'll be honest with you bud, the quote from back in the 1920's ''"The lamps are going out all over Europe, we shall not see them lit again in our life-time" regarding 1914, I think this statement was true, darkness lurks behind even the most shiny political organisations veneers, ominous times imo.
Historical fact. The Hungarian occupation forces were the most brutal in Russia. And in the red army, an order was issued not to take the Hungarians prisoner for their crimes. And Vatutin, when he found out about this, decided to completely destroy the Hungarian group. And now, thanks to Vatutnu, more than 300,000 Hungarians are buried near the city of Voronezh.
Great video as always, but speaking of the Eastern Front, did you check out the new HOI4 update and dlc that completely remodels logistics and the Eastern Front ?
Honestly, you're a little harsh on Manstein, he isn't the only General of WW2 who portrayed himself as the greatest military genius of all time after the war and he indeed was a very capable General.
It's funny to see how that shook out depending on the country. The US had Patton, but didn't make his own postwar myth, because he died. The popular thing for US generals to do was portray themselves as being close to their men, the way Bradley did.
The issue with Manstein isn’t the fact that he made himself look so great, but rather that he often tried to change history with lies. Unfortunately, these lies still permeate today and they extend well past just praise of our Lord and Savior Manstein
Hey, TIK Love your videos, but I feel like they aren't getting the views they deserve. This one is a great example. It's set up as a contest between two generals, you do a good job breaking down individual actions that take place. It is suitable not only for WW2 history audience, but for a much wider range of viewers. The only part that is missing is a title to capture the essence of the piece. Thank you for doing awesome work
Manstein's rep comes from his own books in which he blames Hitler for his defeats. Vatutin was a superior commander, beating Manstein each time they "met." Our anti-Soviet and now anti-Russian bias makes us wrongly assume Manstein was a genius.
Wasnt hitler pretty bad? I get it that its so god damn convenient to pass the buck on a major fuck up, especially a general over historic battles... Seriously though, Hitler was an egotistical mad man, who fancied himself a great military mind. Hes let into those German General meetings because hes the head politician, not because he was a great military mind. There are few "clean" German high command, that said, Ive always been enamored with Gotthard Heinrici. To me, he was a true soldier. He was passed on by the Nazis because he didnt buy into their malarkey and could see it for whaflt it is. But he was also a true soldier with a job to do. And he did it. To me, he epitomizes, military brilliance while working on behalf of a political party of murderous criminals unlike anything the world had ever seen...when.it comes to.blaming hitler, it just doesnt seem far off the mark.
Even the question, if someone is better than our lord and savior Manstein is blasphemy! Now listen prussians glory for ten times in repeat to forgive your sins son 🙏🏻🙏🏻
Hi TIK Gotthard Heinrici was one of Germany's best Generals. He is underrated. He also refused to commit atrocities. His defense tactics were also good. In my opinion, he was far better than wanna be Manstein
Heinrici and Model were excellent at defence, but they never won an offensive battle as far as I know. Manstein did it repeatedly. I think we can agree that they were all very competent.
There is always a narrative. This should be the first lesson for anybody wanting to understand history or current events. The narrative can be due to somebody having a different perspective and/or due somebody wanting to manipulate others.
Make a video of why we talk about generals and commanders so much, that it starts feeling like we are belittling the men actually facing death on the front? As if it was just a 1v1 between the generals.
Because individual soldiers do not decided the outcome of a war, we're not in a fictional book were one soldier can make or break the Eastern Front, or any other front in that matter. Generals, Admirals and other commander can since they fight not in one area alone but a whole theater of operation, there skills and competency make or break a war.
@@SwfanredLotr those "nationalists" were probably the worse and most hated faction (considering their small size) in WW2, the unspeakable things they did to Polish civilians, and the fact that both the axis, the allies and the soviets fought them.
Interesting and informative. Excellent photography job/pics/maps. Enabling viewers to better understand what/whom the orator was describing. Class A research project!!! Special thanks to veterans/civilians who shared personal information/combat experiences making this documentary more authentic and possible. Fighting/perishing/surviving knowing certain death/debilitating wounds were often possible. That's true grit style determination to succeed. Although Manstien could claim a temporary roust. Supply shortages once again prevented his forces from being able to advance or retreat. Vatutin had the advantage of supplies and reinforcements being miles closer than manstien.
TIK, congratulations on the best YT WWII channel to be found. TY also for enlightening me on Hitler's socialism & how that led directly to the Holocaust. 10/10!
I consume a lot of WW2 history and barely remember hearing much about Vatutin and this is the first time I've heard of him being compared to Manstein. It says so much how the memoirs of German WW2 Generals published during the cold war, have dominated the Western History of WW2, glorifying these NAZI generals.
@@TheImperatorKnight Except in this aspect they hardly are unbiased, since they provide information on amount and kind of atrocities commited by UPA, atrocities which in savagery were easily exceeding overwhelming part of Soviet and German crimes. While latter were murdering people, what Ukrainians of UPA were doing can be simply described as butchery. The only aspect of unbiased I can agree with is that some Polish sources whitewash or ignore mistreatment of Ukrainians during Second Polish Republic existence. Disregarding though entire rest of data based on it though is simply irrational, especially since while prewar mistreatment can justify that Ukrainians antagonistic behaviour, it doesn't even remotely reason the carnage which Ukrainians brought upon Poles and anyone else, including other Ukrainians, who they didn't like.
@@ReichLife yes indeed. The polish actions against ukrainians can't be a justification for the savagery that UPA showed toward poles. But this doesn't mean that UPA were fascist or nazi-collaborators, but this shows that UPA did only a deplorable and unecessary "revenge", that damaged the image of the struggle of the ukrainian nationalist for their beloved ukrainian nation 4ever. They can praise them as anti-german or anti-soviets heroes how much they want, but the shamefull pages can't be deleted.
@@tiziogg6350 Except UPA had fascist tendencies. '"Ukraine for Ukrainians" slogans, calling for a state with dictator, etc. Followed by still present collaboration with Nazis, for example if it was against Soviet partisans. Though scale of collaboration of UPA is more than likely overblown, due to presence of many other Ukrainian units, entities collaborating with Nazis. And that's the problem with modern Ukraine and it's relation with UPA. It glorifies it, while trying to ignore, whitewash or sweep under the carpet atrocities which UPA committed.
That sounds a good question! I guess that having more infrastructure is better than a lesser amount. Industrial centers would be better served. It gave jobs to the people building them, & the Nazis propaganda. It enabled the military to move around faster. It was a technical showpiece of how modern Germany was, & how the Nazis were making things better. The fuel they could get wasn't in such short supply. Obviously the military Hitler was building then used up a lot more fuel than Germany could supply, but until WW2, they just about had enough. The Nazis were telling everyone that the 'Volkswagen' would soon be able to enjoy these roads going to their Baltic & other holiday homes. Trains couldn't get to some locations, & were busy supporting other industries. Petrol/Diesel was seen as more a fuel of the future (as it powered airplanes, ships, cars, airships). Coal had it's uses, but like today, people wanted cars for more freedom. The Nazis were investing in synthetic fuels, & still thought they would get enough, until Goring, who didn't really understand the process & saw they couldn't do it, gave up trying. Another example of the Nazis Leadership not planning or organising properly.
@@eze8970 True, but almost everything you said could be applied to trains which would have most the benefits, without the problems. Regarding the military, you have a point but much of it wasn't for the military. Regarding fuel supply, germany was planning to go to war so this would make the fuel situation problematic. Plus Hitler had a ideology of autarky (self sufficiency), so this creation increase of fuel dependency should have been both ideologically and practically a taboo. I do agree that propaganda, plus cool new tech were factors, but they don't feel to be enough for me.
@@yisraelmeirsobel907 Thank you for your reply. You have to remember that Hitler didn't really think properly, & got blinded by his 'destiny' & grand schemes. He didn't understand economics or logistics. His economic policy bankrupted Germany. He paid them attention, but didn't look enough into what would solve them. Autaky would be achieved by taking what other had, i.e Russian resources. Trains were seen as old tech, & petrol engines the future. Trains couldn't be used like vehicles for military purposes. An army will just use trains to get nearer to the front, then they will use vehicles/horses/walk, or aircraft in modern times. You need the Strategic & Tactical flexibility of vehicles to fight your enemy. In Hitler's eyes, his new army & civilian population would be mechanised, so they would need the new roads/motorways. Not having the fuel would be solved by taking what Soviet Russia had. Hitler ignored what his Logistics Supply Commander said, & invaded Soviet Russia to 'fulfill his destiny/dream'. It wasn't based on sound military thinking or intelligence, although Hitler thought the task would be easier due to the Soviet Government collapsing & suing for peace. Hitler told Goring to sort out the fuel issue before WW2 (getting more from Rumania & home grown synthetic fuels), but Goring failed. Hitler however was too far down the line to stop his plans.
Thanks TIK. That ''Everything is Fascist'' has been in my head all day. As bad as the original from that movie. Absolutely spot on though. Good to see you back in top form!
The Russian best was in my humble opinion Rokossowski next in line is probably Czerniachovski and Koniev and Watutin Tik od you want compare somebody with Manstein should be Rokossovski
TIK, your looking alot better after taking some time off. You even sound better. I want go into and ask you if thats a touch of make up your dawning on this post.. Keep up the good work as history never gets old.
I would like to know TIK´s oppinion on K. Rokosovski. He was a Soviet general fihting the Nazis. He was from mixed Russian-Polish family. When I talked about him in Poland people said: "He was a Russian we dont like him." When I was talking about him with my Russian friend he said: "He was a Pole, I dont like him." I replied that he was fighting the Nazis, theenemies of all humanity. He defended Moscow and fought all the way to Berlin. I have heard a story: The SS were defending some line. After they heard that Rokosovski is going to fight them they withdrew to the next line. How would you rate K. Rokosovski TIK? I would like to thank you for a great work. Have a nice Christmas, Jerry.
This is simple not true, there is a huge amount of great/influential people with Polish or Russian-Polish mix in Russian history and they are all cherished more than in Poland. If we just take generals, we already have the mentioned Rokossovski, and there are for example Denikin and Brusilov. Big names in Russian military history. Then there are composers, politicians, artists Malevich comes to mind, overall too many names to mention.
Just in case anyone is wondering, the next Battlestorm Stalingrad video (Episode 30) should be out next week. Also th-cam.com/video/SkUkiZBWOlc/w-d-xo.html
Worth the wait
Stemmermannburger?
Not gonna look.
All you have to do is compare Zhukov's brilliance at Khalkhin Gol with
Vatutin
Zhukov got promoted and not purged because of his brilliant performance at Khalkhin Gol. He's clearly a better tank general than Vatutin, one of histories best generals in fact.
Thanks TIK!
God bless you, brother! Thanks for all the great video history joy.
Well according to HOI4, Vatutin is skill level 3 with traits such as "reckless" and "infantry officer" vs Manstein's skill level 4 with "brilliant strategist", "armor officer", "trickster" and "engineer" traits, case closed.
I beg of you to remove the sarcasm in parenthesis. It’s so hilarious that only fools would interpret it to be serious- and that makes it even funnier
@@internetstrangerstrangerofweb I disagree with you sir, the amount of fools that might appear to consider the argument valid is too high, therefore it must be maintained.
@@Gabriel-sdf no. That makes it even funnier
@@internetstrangerstrangerofweb you have a point
This is still a game, not reality. Moreover, the game is based on mechanics. And people prescribe codes, so this is a subjective opinion.
Tik, I stumbled across your TH-cam site about a month ago. I’ve found it to be a superior site in the history of the Eastern Front. You magnificently explain each key battle and the strengths of key leaders on the German and Russian sides. I became an instant subscriber.
Welcome onboard! Yeah, my intention here (as one old subscriber said once) is to be "super-accurate and filthy detailed", whilst also not being shy about providing a verdict. So if you like in-depth history, you're in the right place 👍
Indeed there are other good WWII series. But TIK`s videos in fact are superior to all because of two reasons: 1.) he is best evaluating the reliability of soures, 2.) he makes brilliantly clear why decisions were made on the personal/individual level.
@@berndf.k.1662 he's definitely ona different level than Indy, or Spartacus.
Your channel is exemplary of how studies of history should be conducted. Thank you for your work, Tik!
Yup, actual critical thinking, something that is being traded out for instant reactions based off emotions, not facts...at least here in the United States.
lol
Vatutin made mistake at third Harkov. He misinterpret Mansteins intentios beliving he is in retrit. Popov paid the price.
But he learned from this defeat and never again did same mistake.
His best action was moving Rybalkovs tank army from Bukrin bridgehead north to Lyutezh in the end of 1943. Becouse of that Kiev was lost for Manstein who didnt detected this move. And in proces all Dneper campaign was victorius for Vatutin and Red army.
This was a masterpice of planning, deception and logistics.
As a Polish person I am a bit surprised UPA is such a completely unknown subject in the West. But I also must admit it was very smart of you to not touch that can of worms. (and, as you may guess, yes, there is also Polish perspective on the subject)
W rzeczy samej
And what a can of worms. I'm used to Ukrainian wiew on this and it's... A subject to avoid.
What is the Polish take on the UPA? I'm interested
@@jayjayson9613 Check out "Volhynia massacre" and you will find out.
@@jayjayson9613 Here I can save you a long read- "Most of the victims were women and children. Many of the Polish victims regardless of age or gender were tortured before being killed; some of the methods included rape, dismemberment or immolation, among others. The UPA's actions resulted in between 50,000 and 100,000 deaths."
Idk about this Mr. TIK. I read in a book, "Lost Victories" that Manstien is the greatest general ever. Anx I can't imagine any reason for the author of that book to be biased. So it must be true.
Of course it's true! Manstein was undefeated in his holy brilliance. Praise be.
@@TheImperatorKnight Our Corps Commander, who art in headquarters. Hallow be thy tanks. Thy Wehrmacht come, Thy orders be followed on the battlefield as is in wargames.
@@TheImperatorKnight Idt the author ever described Von Manstein as "Lord of the Universe" verbatim. But that is how the author portrays him. All Mastein's successes were due to his genius and all his failures were due to madman Hitler.
If only. If only.
"In Manny we trust"
@CipiRipi00 Manstein is right and lucid in stating that Manstein's lost victories were right there already taken, if only madman Hitler and the SS didn't screw the holy Wehrmacht
If only if only indeed!
TIK, you forgot to mention Rokossovski's part in Bagration, and don't forget, he not only got the better of the Germans but stood his ground vs. Stalin in the planning phase. I suspect this was far more dangarous than the actual battle. And he was on a roll after that all the way to Berlin.
You are wrong, the dispute between Rokossovsky and Stalin was somewhat different and began and ended differently.
@@kagtavieponi9722 Honestly, that particular dispute (yes, I know what ya'll are on about) is a tad bit tricky to pin down since multiple different versions of it exist from different historians with pretty good arguments for each. There's no doubt that Rokossovsky did a great job at Bagration and beyond.
@@901Sherman Recently, it became known exactly what happened with a high degree of probability, due to the log of visits to Stalin's office and during the repeated comparison of memoirs and documents. Rokosovsky was not honest in this case.
@@kagtavieponi9722 The real question is what was Stalin's real standing on the whole thing? It's well known that he wasn't a big fan of something as overly complicated or ambitious like the one being presented for the southern most portion of Bagration (especially after how similar operations in the early war failed epically). And while he was more willing to have commanders exercise their freedom and flexibility of action during the 3rd period of the war (1943-45), he still had some say in how operations went. Taking this all into account, he most certainly would've opposed what the STAVKA wanted and might have even backed the reluctant Rokossovsky. Hell, Konev's plans for the later Lvov-Sandomierz Operation were just as ambitious and from what I've read, it took a while for Stalin to be convinced (of course, not without reminding Konev that failure would be dealt with harshly).
@@901Sherman I do not have my own opinion on this matter, I am not an expert, but those whom I trust associate Stalin's decisions on operations with domestic politics. He wanted to expel the Germans from the USSR as soon as possible, without resorting to large-scale encirclement operations. Although, in general, he was not against such an outcome, for example, the encirclement of the 6th Army of Paulus at Stalingrad, how long it fought and what pain in the ass until the last days, and what forces it attracted. myself. Considering that in 1943 the Germans were able to get out of the encirclement, although not without losses, this gave Stalin reason to doubt the encirclement operations. However, he did not dream of an easy victory. In fact, the victory at the age of 44 still seemed distant, the Germans were still not far from Leningrad, the feeling that he was about to win did not arise. Therefore, he would have preferred simpler but working solutions.
Ever considered some "But is this really the case?" merch? I think I could go for a shirt like that...
I order wehraboo t-shirt with halder portrayed like holy Jesus.
Unfortunately after Brexit - no merch for anyone. :P
I've posted in the comments before that it would be great on a mug to start out
I'd buy 🤑
Yeah, saint Halder or Manstein, underlined by "But is this really the case?". Loving it. Madman Hitler would be even better, but that has some seriously bad conotations :D
I sopport this idea.
Some points on the north and the south of the Kursk salient. I drove through these parts in a car and I saw the landscape there with my own eyes. I must tell you that there are lots of ravines in the north with lots of streams, and some forests as well. The terrain is very difficult for tanks to operate. While in the south, the land is as flat as a pancake. Or as a table as the saying goes here in Russia.
I think the books on the battle of Kursk mention this fact.
So it's no wonder the Germans saw some advance in the south regardless of who was defending it.
On the UPA: the obvious lie is that Ukrainian historians claim the UPA "fought against two totalitarian regimes" while in fact they never attacked the Germans.
The point is you want an unbiased source at best. For instance, I as Jew have a hard time talking about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict simply because I am biased. There is no shame in this. If you are Russian, mostly, you are biased in favour of Russia. While outside sources paint a different picture. The only way to verify events is if an outside source confirms it. The best is if both sides of a conflict confirm it. But that is rarely the case in minor events.
The UPA was a force of Ukrainians only fighting for Ukrainians. I think at best we can say they were not friendly to either the Germans or the Russians. And probably since they were insurgents attack targets of opportunity.
@@dgray3771
Ошибаешься, парниша,
Пальцем в небо ты попав.
Коль не знаешь - будь потише,
Почитай УПА устав.
Там записан другом Гитлер,
Коммунисты все - враги.
Дети - тоже. Сопли вытри.
Ты поляк, еврей? Беги!
Это сборище бандитов
И маньяков, и воров.
Мирных жителей убито
Ими было - будь здоров!
Кто они как не фашисты,
Не посланцы Сатаны?
В голове у Вас не чисто.
Пропаганды Вы полны.
The obvious lie - is those russian narratives you trying to spread. UPA definitely fought against Germans. You better tell us about ROA who supported Nazi. And now russia holdes flag of ROA as a state flag
@@johan5293
Ну ты Ваня отчебучил!
Устыдись, смирясь. Увы.
Раз ломает - дунь-ка лучше
Ты ещё своей травы.
Ты, как жертва пропаганды,
Хоть она вконец тупа,
Назови (ну очень надо)
Битвы армии УПА,
Где они, хоть тыщу немцев
Стёрли в мелкий порошок.
Нет, не тот, коль присмотреться,
На носу твоём ещё...
Для РОА есть все причины.
Оправданий, впрочем - нет.
Древний флаг свой осквенили
Выродки за пару лет.
Находить в УПА героев
Недоразвитой страны -
Явно в психике расстроен
Мозг. Лечиться вы должны.
@@johan5293 Oh, this ROA flag that was created by Peter 1 in the 18th century. The counter-arguments of the Ukrainians are so pitiful.
I once talked with a German tank gunner who had faced that Soviet tank charge at Provhorovka. He said that he didn't need to aim his gun, only fire it in the enemy's direction as soon as it was loaded, and had a hit every time.
Prolly the same guy over and over again
pity that prokhorovka was a serious German defeat
Because the Soviets had tons of everything, the krauts did not. Except for military skill.
@@LorenzoBruni-ol6pt
A lot of tank pictures this week - well done. You obviously needed that break to come round to my way of thinking. Forget the economics and show the tracks! In all seriousness you are looking well, putting 100% into it all the time is not a stratergy for longevity. A little planned laziness is often a good idea.
"A little planned laziness is often a good idea."
This is definitely something I need to get my head around. I need to accept the fact that I can't just work 10 hours a day EVERY day of the year 😣
@@TheImperatorKnight You've got to have rest or it's the law of diminishing returns. Various friends of mine have worked long hours, including weekends & taking a sleeping bag into work......All got physical & mental health issues. My hours did me no favours either. Please take this as advice from a 'friend', & like many others on here, who doesn't want to see you get ill. Thank you.
Tik l give you 1 million pounds if vatutin is more the best than manstein.... Manstein is architect how to defeated france 🇫🇷 ..... So and something other if manstein himself would commanded the 4 army on stalingrad.... Now the world would be Germany 🇩🇪....
@@_antike_cdo_gje489 You may be correct about France, but at Stalingrad, Manstein, like the other German Commanders can't make fuel, ammo, food, & reinforcements out of nothing - they just weren't getting through, & slowly wasting away. The German Commanders, by saying Stalingrad had almost fallen, made it seem to Hitler/General Staff, that the Stalingrad front didn't need priority supplies, while the Soviets were putting more & more into the region.
This was why the Axis were so weak when the Soviets did their attack.
Manstein may have done 'better' at Stalingrad than other German Generals, but the region is very large, & he is only one small part of it.
@@_antike_cdo_gje489 you take stalingrad and what ? starve to death 10km ahead ? Red Army will still have keep fighting .
Katukov, Rokossovsky, Malinovsky, Rybalko - my favorite tacticians and commanders. TIK you are a go to expert on WW2 Eastern Front. Thumbs for everything you do.
Vatutin was a good general for the USSR. Manstein was good for Germany. Neither can be understood outside the environment of their respective armies and nations. Neither would have been viable in the other army. Also, as the Red Army proved, a rock with lips could succeed for them, while the Germans proved that no one could succeed for them.
Very good, underrated comment!
It's a shame he died in 1944
Vtutin was good, but nor so good. Also Vatutin was not tank general but staff general . The best general on his level was Chernyahowski (Черняховский)
You can't say that neither could have commanded the other army. Nobody knows that. I mean sure, Stalin would have executed Manstein for being a Nazi but I don't think that is what you meant.
@@Jordan-Ramses I dont think Manstein would have been a Nazi if he had grown up in the Soviet Union. He was an opportunist. But I too think that Manstein would have been purged under Stalin, because he was far too independent-minded in military matters. Also, Mansteins style would not have worked in the Red Army, because the Red Army never taught independent thinking to its junior officers, so at the first sign of trouble, an offensive would halt because nobody dared to take the initiative. Also, we cannot know how Vatutin would have fared in the Wehrmacht for the same reasons. The Wehrmacht was fundamentally different from the Red Army in its entire structure.
Tik, good work on your video last week with the Battle of the Atlantic. Collingham was a good read when I went through her book last year. Had to put Gotz Aly’s book aside for now. It’s good, just very dense with economic terms. Cheers from the other side of the pond.
"It’s good, just very dense with economic terms."
Interesting! See, I enjoy economics so I didn't pick up on this when I read it, but you pointing it out makes me realize that a lot of people won't understand a lot of economic terms. Which terms did you struggle with?
But yes, I'm glad to hear you enjoyed last week's video, and Collingham's book. There needs to be more said on the economics side of the conflict, and her book really helped bridge some gaps.
@@TheImperatorKnight Hey Tik,
I suppose terms like, “Escrow,” and the taxation methods of the Third Reich to start. Aly does Barney style in his summaries, so I get his overall message. I grew up reading military history, so logistics and military terms I can pick up a bit faster than economic or political history. Not that I’m helpless on it, just slower.
Collingham’s book was helpful. I’m currently between Frederick Taylor’s book on Dresden and Robert Forczyk’s ,”Case White,” I like Bob’s work; I find him very opinionated and disagree with some of his opinions.
As usual, you do a great job with these videos. In von Manstein's case you have done a great job (previously) of knocking him off his high horse of great generaldom. Nevertheless, your well done effort to "set the record straight" seems to have turned into a personal vendetta against Herr Erich. But thanks for annoying me (and others). We need to have our preconceived conclusions upset every now and again.
At Kursk Rokossovsky was given a lot more artillery since the Stavka thought the main strike would be there. That is why the Germans had less success there.
Secondly, a job of a commander is to concentrate the most forces where the enemy is the weakest, that is to get himself into position where he has as much numerical advantage as possible. So if a general gets overwhelmed, this means that either he or his superiors failed to detect enemy concentration and failed to prepare. So it is their fault to be overwhelmed. And on the other side if a general has amassed enough numbers, without the enemy seeing, then he has done his job well.
Rokossovsky also had a geographical advantage because in the northern sector of Kursk is a heavy forested area with just relatively small area of terrain fitted for big tank formation so Rokossovsky didn't need to defend the whole line just part off it.
In the southern sector it was the open step which means that the Nazi's could go in any direction it was harder to defend the line there.
@@rankoorovic7904 yes. And in these circumstances Vatutin had achieved his task: stopped the advance
Hope you had a relaxing break from all your hard work and history chronicles. Glad to see you back in action though. A terrific WW2 history channel that i tell all my military enthusiast friends to check out. Cheers from Canada and welcome back.
A good General doesn't get assassinated...
+1 for Manstein
Caesar disagrees
Patton?
@@lucas82 patton is overrated
Tell that to Nelson
Black humour as it is, I think there's some point in the joke. What I read in Russian is that Vatutin and his guards while driving in a car (or a couple of cars) were attacked by an ambush of a small bunch of insurgents. No one was wounded in the nitital attack. But instead of leaving the place ASAP they decided to engage (was it Vatutin's order? I wonder).
That's when the General was mortally wounded. If they transferred him to Moscow at once, he might have made it but precious time was lost. A string of stupid decisions.
Those who believe in the Manstein shall receive the blessings of the Manstein.
All hail our lord and savor Manstein!
He lost the east with the rest of the Germans. So better then what?
....and Steiner is his prophet 🙏🏽
Our Corps Commander, who art in headquarters. Hallow be thy tanks. Thy Wehrmacht come, Thy orders be followed on the battlefield as is in wargames.
Blessings upon his name.
Oh boy I really, really look forward to watching this! Thanks TIK!
Edit: Before you very correctly explained that it is basically impossible to compare two generals, I got really annoyed by how easily Vatutin earned his points 😂
Altogether I don't know enough about Vatutin to really form an opinion on him, although he was certainly a very good general for the Red Army. Manstein's exploits are well known, and what I consider remarkable about him is that he was adaptive in different circumstances, be it plan an entire strategic offensive or command troops at corps, army or army group level, or bust a fortress, or whatever. Manstein's exploits look more impressive, but you should not forget that the Wehrmacht was basically heaven for commanders like him, because of their Auftragstaktik they could pull off stunts like the French campaign. Manstein would probably not have survived Stalin's purges if things were reversed, and we really cannot know how Vatutin would have fitted into the Wehrmacht.
Yeah this should be good!!
Hands down my favourite historian on youtube. The Stalingrad series is amazing. I’ve watched 11 episodes in two days. Keep series like that one going please. Perhaps on the battle for Greece or some other more obscure and forgotten battle.
Great video, like you stated all generals have their strengths and weaknesses. It's possible to make a list of the best generals but it's impossible to say which one is best overall.
Manstein clearly wins this one since he can single handedly fend off against the Red Army with nothing but his fists
Crying from laughing
Don’t forget that he also got the Americans to the moon too
And he made the French surrender with a sneeze.
🤣🤣🤣 fkng funniest thing I have read all year
Russians won Germans lost …. Here is your answer 😉
I mean come on, this isn't even a fair comparison.
Manstein clearly had magical training.
Fascinating approach of their respective roles in the war. Thanks TIK for this great content !
Bottom line: Somebody wiped out most of the Poles from former Eastern Poland, and half of it is now Western Ukraine.If not UPA, then who, since that happened during German occupation? Remaining ones are relocated after the war to former Eastern German territories.
The Germans targeted the Poles during the war. Snydor talks about this in "Blood Lands", but there's an article on Wikipedia too en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_crimes_against_the_Polish_nation#Ethnic_cleansing_through_forced_expulsion
@@TheImperatorKnight en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia_and_Eastern_Galicia
@@TheImperatorKnight UPA was a terrorist organization targeting mostly Polish civilians.
Germans did many crimes on Polish nation, but the way people in Volhynia and Red Rhutenia died after invasion of Soviet Union by Germany doesn't fit neither Russian nor German memo.
For sure, both commited genocide on those lands, but UPA seems as likely a perpetrator as either considering their pre-war terroristic history and documented crimes against civilian population in early WW2.
I know you just don't have the information, so it's not your fault for jumping to German conclusion, especially as it's the main narrative in the West, but I'd advise to refrain from being snarky on such topics when, as admitted, you don't have proper information.
As for a Pole as myself, it's just sad that pur cousins from Ukraine decided to venerate the terrorists, bandits and monsters from UPA instead of the long list of great national heroes from their pre-interwar history. But I guess the fact that many of them were also Polish or served Commonwealth just doesn't sit right with some of them who just want to see Polish blood spilled.
@@TheImperatorKnight Ukrainian nationalists (including UPA) are responsible for systemic ethhnic cleansing in Eastern Poland (nowadays Western Ukraine). Read more on Volhinia / Wołyń operations in 1943-1944 where over 100 thousand Polish civilians were murdered.
@@Ussurin So you are blaming a large scale effective genocide on a loose separatist movement when there were two dictatorships who hated the Poles with a passion vying for Polish lands? Occam's Razor says you are wrong since we don't have unbiased sources.
Personally it seems like the war and German/Soviet atrocities had left Eastern Polish lands (which were not only Polish...) quite empty, after that Stalin wanted to play the most popular imperialist game called "Lets rewrite maps on a whim!" which resulted in modern borders, remaining Poles were forcibly relocated to new polish lands.
I'm not especially against the idea of UPA doing what you claim but it just seems like a really long stretch, I do believe they did do some atrocities since nationalism leads to that sort of thing, especially with the times.
I’ve been thinking about this very topic for months nonstop. Thanks!
I think you were a bit harsh on Rokosovsky, TIK, even the Mighty Manstein could not have performed a miracle commanding the clusterfucks that were the Soviet mechanized corps at Dubno. After all, he got beaten later on with far better organized and superior forces. Any Soviet general who seemed to have cared for his troops and not deploy them Melchet style is a good one in my book. If I were a Soviet soldier in particular.
"and not deploy them Melchet style" - and who exactly did that?
@@cccpredarmy Most Soviet generals were quite ruthless in deploying their men. Either because of incompetence, fear of Stalin's retribution if not carrying out his orders or just not giving a damn. Or all 3 combined. And the Red Army carried out a LOT of Melchet style operations in 1941 and 1942. Operation Mars is a textbook Melchet style operation. Go search for David Glantz's lecture on 'forgotten' Red Army battles of WW2.
@@chaptermasterpedrokantor1623 "Most Soviet generals were quite ruthless in deploying their men" - sauce
"Operation Mars is a textbook Melchet style operation" - 70353 vs 53500 KIA against far superior enemy is for you "Melchett style"?
Is David Glantz and his conclusions the mother of all sources?
General Melchett from Blackadder TV show... If you cannot name real people...
What rubbish! If Manstein had commanded Soviet forces at Dubno, within 3 days he's have been driving into Berlin at the head of a huge column of 1000 tanks, with the Red Army choir singing behind him and 3 million adoring German civilians lining the streets waving the red flag. 😇
Seriously though, I absolutely love this style of video and would love you doing more in the future!
Didn't Manstein want to start Operation Citadela couple of months earlier instead of waiting for the Panther Tanks which most broke down.
Vatutins equaliser has been referred to VAR. 👍
Starting Zitadelle earlier would change nothing in result
@@b4nterontilt245 Don't agree, the Russians made in that time the biggest defences they had ever built, this is why Model barely made any headway in the North.
@@gordy3714 ??? Germans would lose anyway
@@b4nterontilt245 Talking about the battle not the war.
@@gordy3714 but germans were much deployed earlier and also didn't have much strenght either
they could atack earlier but result would be probably same.
I must admit I was totally confused and baffled until the end. Your comparison did not make sense, so you got me. Thank you for sharing. Have a great week.
For those interested in the UPA and the death of Vatutin, Prit Buttar's "Retribution" goes into detail on both subjects. He provides a modern perspective on the subject and shows both soviet and german period and post war views.
Edit: I had the wrong book in the series.
Thank you for the recommendation! Pritt Buttar did a good job with "Between Giants", so I'm now hopeful he did a decent history of the UPA
Ignoring their terroristic history pre-War is probably as bad as being heavily biased towards either Soviets or UPA. You cannot understand their role in war without knowing how Ukrainian nationalists made everyone around them hate them. Like, even the most pro-slavic federation groups in Eastern Europe couldn't find in themself to treat them anything other than evil.
@@Ussurin Right, they were just anarchic murderers of us Poles, having fun while doing it, trying new ways of killing, the evilest ways noone could ever imagine.
I will go Manstein over Vatutin. It's Manstein skill as an operational commander and how he can visualize space and time. Also he does more with less.
A "What if" is what would have happened if the Kursk offensive was not undertaken and it was the Soviets who attacked first as it was a course of action not to attack the Kursk Salient.
All your Videos are very interesting, really. Thank you so much! I hope you doing good and that the break helped you to relax and decrease the stress level.
Edit: Just realised that you uploaded a Video last week, wich didn't show up in my inbox on YT for whatever reason. Lucky me, more to watch. 👍
I'm glad you enjoy them! They're stressful to make sometimes (like next week's Stalingrad video...) but it's good to know people like them!
These looks at non Battlestorm issues really are terrific and additive. You also seemed more energetic. So whatever gets you to feeling better, do it! And thanks.
For UPA perhaps a good overview, but a somewhat short one, can be found in Harvest of Despair - Life and Death in Ukraine Under Nazi Rule by Karel C. Berkhoff, its not just about them, but I think it gives decent information on it, and it's not written by a Ukrainian, but rather by a Dutch historian
Per Anders Radling. He has many articles about the UPA and their ideology.
UPA is fascist organisation not because of Soviet propaganda or their cruelty but because of concept of their ideology which was very popular in Europe during that time.
I love your content. You have such clear passion, yet you can still be incredibly humble and objective.
When your doctrine is based on "dance like a butterfly and sting like a bee", retreating all the way to Berlin is still a both tactically and strategically superior alternative to plant your feet in the ground and hope that watching Rocky 1-5 will let you take the clobbering.
Yes, those oilfields in Caucasus would been nice to have, but since they are out of reach regardless, let's look at the options available, shall we?
Thanks for the amusing video. Is good to learn more about both sides. Looking forward to the pocket video.
I've read the biography of K K Rokossovsky, and within my limited knowledge of Soviet generals he seems a real contender as the best. Less of a thug than Zhukov too...
I like Rokossovski very much..he is brilliant
@@DL-ls5sy Rokossovsky in my opinion was definitely the best all round commander the Red Army had. To think they almost killed him...
Rokossovsky was a Pole not Russian.
He could not and did not stay out of the" harvest of 37", while Zsukov actually held head down.
I would find it an interesting topik, which general after the Tuhacsevszkij era was to be considered the best.
Within the Red Army, actually.
And another contest could fill video(s) on who the best Axis general would have been.
A bit apart from the Eastern Front, waw Rommel better than Montfomery or Patton?
God knows.
@@kondorviktor and what about Gamelin ?
@@DL-ls5sy oui, monsieur.
Which war, then?
Another interesting & informative video, thanks TIK!
I had heard that at Prokhorovka, one of the reasons for the losses of the Soviet tanks included said tanks driving into one of their own antitank ditches. This is something modern Russian academics deny, but the reports were clear. As a consequence, the source documents have been removed from scrutiny. My source for this? None other than Al Murray's podcast "We have ways of making you talk," with James Holland.
I love this. I have been wondering about this for ages. I have long thought Vatutin as an intriguing character, difficult to find good info about. Thanks TIK ;)
Clearly manstein wins
Sunglasses emoji
He always wins. He never loses.
@@PurpleCat9794 yeah
Again a great video !!
In this face-off, I must throw in with Manstein. While his tanks enjoyed superior firepower, he did not have the number of tanks Vatutin had, and he knew it. His decisions were thus tempered by his concern about not having ready replacements. He was experiencing supply shortages as well. Some of his notable victories on the Eastern Front resulted from some risk-taking; he no longer enjoyed that freedom.
Another great piece of work TIK and good to see that you look much more rested.
Vatutin was complicated. He was a bulldog. He was bit like Churchill on a much lower level. His first instinct was to attack, even when it was not the most effective plan. It was hard for him to sit on the defensive on the south face of the Kursk salient for so many months, but on the offensive following he was not nearly as efficient as Rokossovsky, for one example. It would be easier to judge his overall generalship if he had lived longer.
Usually attacking is the best defence. Because the defender is defending what he has and isn't focussing on what you have. The fluidity of modern warfare made that different though. Attacking too much will simply waste your troops and resources and gain you nothing.
Pyrrhus learned that lesson the hard way. You can win too much and gain nothing.
I sort of wondered why Soviet losses were so high. I ran across a video where they interviewed German tank crews. They stated they had extensive gunnery training at different ranges and angles while planning on using terrain to site their positions. While the Soviets put untrained crews in who simply charged straight on.
Vatutin had a bunch of quality competition
Marshal Rokosovsky
Marshal Konjev
General Katukov 1st Tank Guards Army
Vatutin was a good strategist, but he is worse as a tactician
Dig in of tanks near Kursk is General Katuk's idea
he demanded that the counterattack order be changed to a trench defense
As Katukov says
"The Germans have more tanks than me, they are heavier and they shoot from a greater distance
Let's dig in tanks and prepare ambushes "
Vatutin and Stalin approved
the rest is history
The Germans didn't have more tanks at Kursk....
@@BlueMax109 The Germans did not have more tanks than the Russians in total, but they had more than one Russian tank army in the narrow area of penetration
Thanks TIK, i look forward to Mondays because of your videos, they are awesome, this wasn't your best video but even so far more informative than anything else out there, well done, I'll be honest with you bud, the quote from back in the 1920's ''"The lamps are going out all over Europe, we shall not see them lit again in our life-time" regarding 1914, I think this statement was true, darkness lurks behind even the most shiny political organisations veneers, ominous times imo.
“the only way to win a war is by retreating” Manstein learning from the French Generals in Vichy
As I watch and learn I am amazed of your reference library has increased. You really do a great job in presentation and fairly present the history.
Historical fact. The Hungarian occupation forces were the most brutal in Russia. And in the red army, an order was issued not to take the Hungarians prisoner for their crimes. And Vatutin, when he found out about this, decided to completely destroy the Hungarian group. And now, thanks to Vatutnu, more than 300,000 Hungarians are buried near the city of Voronezh.
What sources show this? I’m curious.
Adherence to source document's is vital in viewing history through the smog of secondary accounts. Good work Tic,
The way you seamlessly put "Lord of the universe" into the introduction of Manstein got me real god. Hahahha, oh fuck! :D
Like this format a lot - very innovative
Vatutin was killed by having his back broken from carrying the Soviet army on his back.
Keep up the great work. Love the details! Thanks!!!!!
Great video as always, but speaking of the Eastern Front, did you check out the new HOI4 update and dlc that completely remodels logistics and the Eastern Front ?
The thorough work you put into your videos can not be appreciated enough
Honestly, you're a little harsh on Manstein, he isn't the only General of WW2 who portrayed himself as the greatest military genius of all time after the war and he indeed was a very capable General.
It's funny to see how that shook out depending on the country.
The US had Patton, but didn't make his own postwar myth, because he died. The popular thing for US generals to do was portray themselves as being close to their men, the way Bradley did.
The issue with Manstein isn’t the fact that he made himself look so great, but rather that he often tried to change history with lies. Unfortunately, these lies still permeate today and they extend well past just praise of our Lord and Savior Manstein
Hey, nice to have you back. Hope you are feeling better👍
Hello Tik. The only thing you can say for certain is that both generals worked for masters who did not accept failure!
This was a fun video ! The scoring system was silly but added to the entertainment value for sure!
The real question with generals is who you'd rather serve under.
For me it's old Monty.
Hey, TIK
Love your videos, but I feel like they aren't getting the views they deserve. This one is a great example. It's set up as a contest between two generals, you do a good job breaking down individual actions that take place. It is suitable not only for WW2 history audience, but for a much wider range of viewers. The only part that is missing is a title to capture the essence of the piece.
Thank you for doing awesome work
Manstein's rep comes from his own books in which he blames Hitler for his defeats. Vatutin was a superior commander, beating Manstein each time they "met." Our anti-Soviet and now anti-Russian bias makes us wrongly assume Manstein was a genius.
Wasnt hitler pretty bad? I get it that its so god damn convenient to pass the buck on a major fuck up, especially a general over historic battles...
Seriously though, Hitler was an egotistical mad man, who fancied himself a great military mind. Hes let into those German General meetings because hes the head politician, not because he was a great military mind.
There are few "clean" German high command, that said, Ive always been enamored with Gotthard Heinrici. To me, he was a true soldier. He was passed on by the Nazis because he didnt buy into their malarkey and could see it for whaflt it is. But he was also a true soldier with a job to do. And he did it. To me, he epitomizes, military brilliance while working on behalf of a political party of murderous criminals unlike anything the world had ever seen...when.it comes to.blaming hitler, it just doesnt seem far off the mark.
As others have said, your videos are always worthy of watching immediately when posted. Keep them coming TIK!!!!!!!
Even the question, if someone is better than our lord and savior Manstein is blasphemy! Now listen prussians glory for ten times in repeat to forgive your sins son 🙏🏻🙏🏻
This is one of those questions you may not of thought about before, but are very interesting to dive in once they are made
"Was he [...] better than Manstein?" Thou darest questioning the Manstein?! Heresy, I say!
Brilliant TIK...thank you for your effort! As always...great work!
We should put Vatutin and Manstein on free market and simply observe which one will garner the higher price. Simples. ;-)
Very thorough. Your research is impeccable.
Hi TIK Gotthard Heinrici was one of Germany's best Generals. He is underrated. He also refused to commit atrocities. His defense tactics were also good. In my opinion, he was far better than wanna be Manstein
Heinrici and Model were excellent at defence, but they never won an offensive battle as far as I know. Manstein did it repeatedly. I think we can agree that they were all very competent.
Absolutely........the most under rated General of the war
@@michaelkovacic2608 Model was great as agressive commander of panzer division in offensive in 1941.
That was main reasson why he became army general.
There is always a narrative. This should be the first lesson for anybody wanting to understand history or current events. The narrative can be due to somebody having a different perspective and/or due somebody wanting to manipulate others.
Make a video of why we talk about generals and commanders so much, that it starts feeling like we are belittling the men actually facing death on the front?
As if it was just a 1v1 between the generals.
Because individual soldiers do not decided the outcome of a war, we're not in a fictional book were one soldier can make or break the Eastern Front, or any other front in that matter. Generals, Admirals and other commander can since they fight not in one area alone but a whole theater of operation, there skills and competency make or break a war.
I am glad to see you so motivated
I'm so early Vatutin hasn't been assassinated yet!
He was assassinated?
@@nikolajwinther5955 By ukranian nationalists in 1944.
@@SwfanredLotr those "nationalists" were probably the worse and most hated faction (considering their small size) in WW2, the unspeakable things they did to Polish civilians, and the fact that both the axis, the allies and the soviets fought them.
@@CA-jz9bm is there any reliable literature available on them?
@@michaelkovacic2608 reliable? Like unbiased? No i don't think so. They are still heavily politicized and controversial.
Interesting and informative. Excellent photography job/pics/maps. Enabling viewers to better understand what/whom the orator was describing. Class A research project!!! Special thanks to veterans/civilians who shared personal information/combat experiences making this documentary more authentic and possible. Fighting/perishing/surviving knowing certain death/debilitating wounds were often possible. That's true grit style determination to succeed. Although Manstien could claim a temporary roust. Supply shortages once again prevented his forces from being able to advance or retreat. Vatutin had the advantage of supplies and reinforcements being miles closer than manstien.
TIK, congratulations on the best YT WWII channel to be found. TY also for enlightening me on Hitler's socialism & how that led directly to the Holocaust. 10/10!
Thank you for using the term devastated instead of decimated.
my grandma said that the UPA weren't very nice
Great job Tic!
I consume a lot of WW2 history and barely remember hearing much about Vatutin and this is the first time I've heard of him being compared to Manstein.
It says so much how the memoirs of German WW2 Generals published during the cold war, have dominated the Western History of WW2, glorifying these NAZI generals.
Fascinating post and very well delivered.
UPA was far from fascists, they were far worse. If you want unbiased source check out the sources from Poland.
They're not unbiased because the Second Polish Republic didn't treat the Ukrainians (or other minorities) very well.
@@TheImperatorKnight check what they think of them in Israel then? or still biased?
@@TheImperatorKnight Except in this aspect they hardly are unbiased, since they provide information on amount and kind of atrocities commited by UPA, atrocities which in savagery were easily exceeding overwhelming part of Soviet and German crimes. While latter were murdering people, what Ukrainians of UPA were doing can be simply described as butchery.
The only aspect of unbiased I can agree with is that some Polish sources whitewash or ignore mistreatment of Ukrainians during Second Polish Republic existence. Disregarding though entire rest of data based on it though is simply irrational, especially since while prewar mistreatment can justify that Ukrainians antagonistic behaviour, it doesn't even remotely reason the carnage which Ukrainians brought upon Poles and anyone else, including other Ukrainians, who they didn't like.
@@ReichLife yes indeed.
The polish actions against ukrainians can't be a justification for the savagery that UPA showed toward poles.
But this doesn't mean that UPA were fascist or nazi-collaborators, but this shows that UPA did only a deplorable and unecessary "revenge", that damaged the image of the struggle of the ukrainian nationalist for their beloved ukrainian nation 4ever.
They can praise them as anti-german or anti-soviets heroes how much they want, but the shamefull pages can't be deleted.
@@tiziogg6350 Except UPA had fascist tendencies. '"Ukraine for Ukrainians" slogans, calling for a state with dictator, etc. Followed by still present collaboration with Nazis, for example if it was against Soviet partisans. Though scale of collaboration of UPA is more than likely overblown, due to presence of many other Ukrainian units, entities collaborating with Nazis.
And that's the problem with modern Ukraine and it's relation with UPA. It glorifies it, while trying to ignore, whitewash or sweep under the carpet atrocities which UPA committed.
Interesting, witty and informative. Thanks!
Rodolfo Graziani was the best general of WW2
best hairstyle of north Africa
Despite being my second Battlestorm documentary, I still think the Operation Compass video holds up
Your video reminds me History Channel's old program "Clash f Warriors", back when I was a child. They had one episode for Manstein vs. Vatutin.
Hi TIK, Why in your opinion did Hitler invest so much into the autobahn and auto industry in general when this increased its oil dependence.
That sounds a good question!
I guess that having more infrastructure is better than a lesser amount. Industrial centers would be better served.
It gave jobs to the people building them, & the Nazis propaganda.
It enabled the military to move around faster.
It was a technical showpiece of how modern Germany was, & how the Nazis were making things better. The fuel they could get wasn't in such short supply. Obviously the military Hitler was building then used up a lot more fuel than Germany could supply, but until WW2, they just about had enough.
The Nazis were telling everyone that the 'Volkswagen' would soon be able to enjoy these roads going to their Baltic & other holiday homes.
Trains couldn't get to some locations, & were busy supporting other industries.
Petrol/Diesel was seen as more a fuel of the future (as it powered airplanes, ships, cars, airships). Coal had it's uses, but like today, people wanted cars for more freedom.
The Nazis were investing in synthetic fuels, & still thought they would get enough, until Goring, who didn't really understand the process & saw they couldn't do it, gave up trying. Another example of the Nazis Leadership not planning or organising properly.
Soviet oil was to be german anyway in their minds.
@@eze8970 True, but almost everything you said could be applied to trains which would have most the benefits, without the problems.
Regarding the military, you have a point but much of it wasn't for the military.
Regarding fuel supply, germany was planning to go to war so this would make the fuel situation problematic.
Plus Hitler had a ideology of autarky (self sufficiency), so this creation increase of fuel dependency should have been both ideologically and practically a taboo.
I do agree that propaganda, plus cool new tech were factors, but they don't feel to be enough for me.
@@TukozAki You have a point, but it still seems irresponsible to me start counting eggs, before the chicken is even bought.
@@yisraelmeirsobel907 Thank you for your reply. You have to remember that Hitler didn't really think properly, & got blinded by his 'destiny' & grand schemes. He didn't understand economics or logistics. His economic policy bankrupted Germany. He paid them attention, but didn't look enough into what would solve them. Autaky would be achieved by taking what other had, i.e Russian resources.
Trains were seen as old tech, & petrol engines the future. Trains couldn't be used like vehicles for military purposes. An army will just use trains to get nearer to the front, then they will use vehicles/horses/walk, or aircraft in modern times.
You need the Strategic & Tactical flexibility of vehicles to fight your enemy.
In Hitler's eyes, his new army & civilian population would be mechanised, so they would need the new roads/motorways.
Not having the fuel would be solved by taking what Soviet Russia had. Hitler ignored what his Logistics Supply Commander said, & invaded Soviet Russia to 'fulfill his destiny/dream'. It wasn't based on sound military thinking or intelligence, although Hitler thought the task would be easier due to the Soviet Government collapsing & suing for peace.
Hitler told Goring to sort out the fuel issue before WW2 (getting more from Rumania & home grown synthetic fuels), but Goring failed. Hitler however was too far down the line to stop his plans.
Thanks TIK. That ''Everything is Fascist'' has been in my head all day. As bad as the original from that movie. Absolutely spot on though. Good to see you back in top form!
The Russian best was in my humble opinion Rokossowski next in line is probably Czerniachovski and Koniev and Watutin
Tik od you want compare somebody with Manstein should be Rokossovski
I agree ...Rokossovski vs Manstein
Great video! Looking forward to more videos.
Manstein assassinated him as punishment for being regarded by some as better than him and therefore committing blasphemy!
Man this comment killed me 😅😅😅
TIK, your looking alot better after taking some time off. You even sound better. I want go into and ask you if thats a touch of make up your dawning on this post.. Keep up the good work as history never gets old.
I would like to know TIK´s oppinion on K. Rokosovski. He was a Soviet general fihting the Nazis. He was from mixed Russian-Polish family. When I talked about him in Poland people said: "He was a Russian we dont like him." When I was talking about him with my Russian friend he said: "He was a Pole, I dont like him." I replied that he was fighting the Nazis, theenemies of all humanity.
He defended Moscow and fought all the way to Berlin. I have heard a story: The SS were defending some line. After they heard that Rokosovski is going to fight them they withdrew to the next line.
How would you rate K. Rokosovski TIK? I would like to thank you for a great work.
Have a nice Christmas, Jerry.
It's not true that Russians don't like Rokossovsky. Russians probably love them even more than they love Zhukov.
This is simple not true, there is a huge amount of great/influential people with Polish or Russian-Polish mix in Russian history and they are all cherished more than in Poland. If we just take generals, we already have the mentioned Rokossovski, and there are for example Denikin and Brusilov. Big names in Russian military history. Then there are composers, politicians, artists Malevich comes to mind, overall too many names to mention.
@@rarog interesting to hear. My Russian friend reacted as I wrote. But I know only a few Russians...
Good job on the intro & title, additionally to the content.