I have been an electrician for 51 years and started welding in high school since I was 16 years old. That being said I totally agree with your findings. What an excellent training session this was. I even learned allot. Plus, plan on using my 13Kwatt welder to supply power to my stick welder on the farm. I was going to use 240 vac on either the 30 or 50 amp generator outlet. Great video!
In two years I went from never welded at all to being fairly sufficient for non liability projects with my dinky little 120v 90 amp welder, at least as far as dinky little 90 amp welding goes. But alas its time for me to graduate up. My "shop" has a 150 amp supply to the building and currently has two 15 amp breakers. Been using the '90 on the 15s, and I'm good around 16 gauge, but by the time I get to 1/8th I'm tripping the breaker on anything over tack welds or more than 1in beads. So I'm installing one 240v 60 amp and one 120v 30 amp dedicated lines through conduit on the outside of the walls to supply a yet to be bought primeweld 325, and the 120\30 to get the full use from my little '90 and other 120 tools. Greg, you are helping guys like me immensely, I can never fully express my appreciation. Thank you.
No problem 😀👍. No doubt 15amp breakers are very limiting. Once you get a legit 240 hookup and use that new welder you will understand how much of a benefit having a solid 240v hookup is. The power difference is immense. You won’t regret it 👍
EXCELLENT NUMBER CRUNCHING!!! The way to go... Too sad many welders simply are unable to run such type of numbers, which are kind of basic and truly needed. CONGRATS on a direct-to-the point video!
I wish there were more affordable highly efficient power factor corrected welders out there. Right now the entry level price for such a machine is in the ballpark of 550$ for a esab rogue 130 and 800$ for the rogue 180. They both average over 87% efficiency with a power factor of .99. You can literally weld anything together on 120v 20a breaker. Every welder in the sub 400$ range will barely output anything on 120v and forget about a generator. Good stuff costs money I guess lol.
It's the reason 98% of the portable generators put out too much distortion for switching power supply welders. The race to the bottom is crowded. Good parts cost money and they think most won't care and they are right. Look at how many youtube videos there are with someone bragging about a $200 welder.
I just realized it hit 30k thanks to your post 😮. On my phone (which I respond to messages mostly) it doesn’t show numbers the same as the computer. I am blown away, I am glad to be making a difference for so many people 😀👍
Thank you very much Greg, I was really considering buying a generator thinking I would get more power, I'm glad I watched this video, can't thank you enough for sharing such valuable information!
No problem. You can definitely get some decent welding done on 120v house outlet with a welder that’s efficient like the esab rogue 200 or many miller/fronius machines. However on a generator it will really limit your ability to weld. Pretty crazy how companies put out products that overload breakers significantly. Most would never know until they hook it to a generator and realize it doesn’t work well lol.
Great channel, awesome delivery of quality info! I have the same generator (with my anti self smelling shutdown mod). I'm 100% off grid. I've gotten some decent welds using 120V with a Titanium 225, but 220V gives much better results. When it comes down to needing serious chooch, I fire up the 35 KW Guardian. Thanks for your hard work, and easy to comprehend videos!
The titanium 225 does run well on it when on 240v, I tested that extensively. On 120 I don’t recall testing it because the welder is limited to 70a. One of the weird things is that harbor freight decided to not allow the 225 machine to significantly overload breakers thus a more limited 70a output. Most of the cheap stick welders will allow a setpoint of 90-110 amps on 120 which would easily trip breakers. Clearly they were trying to be in compliant with some form of electrical code, which is something most cheap welders don’t care about lol.
I have tested 5 welders on 120v (everything from my miller dynasty, esab 235, esab rogue and two cheap flux core machines. All of them struggle on 120 because of the rampant overloading. Many of them literally shut off under load due to the breaker tripping or voltage drop. I do believe it to be possible to weld on 120v on a generator (just today I ran my esab rogue 200 at 65 amps stick on a 25amp circuit on a engine driven welder) but you will never achieve max output that a house outlet will support. They don’t wire or breaker generators to handle 35amp loads on one leg of 120 (240v machines). Switching to a 240v generator and machine will give far more output because the breaker itself will not trip and you’re using both legs of the output power. The situatuation kind of sucks because it limits choices to more expensive welders to get performance on 120v.
I’ve got this generac 5k generator I got in ‘97. It has a 120/240vac setup but the receptacle wasn’t right for my 240vac welder plug. I rewired it with breakers and fed a proper plug. Now it works great and I’m able to run my 120/240v stick/tig welder in the field with 240v.
You definitely will get far more use ability with the 240v than the 120. Having a mobile welding setup is an awesome option, beats trying to find power where you are lol.
@ totally. And that setup was made when I had the crown Vic: I had a cargo carrier on a 2-inch receiver with the genny on it, and the welder with gas bottle in the trunk. Good times!
EXCELLENT video, Greg. I’ve commented before about my little Sanrex 160s Stig machine (stick/tig). At home on a 20a breaker and 120V I have been able to run beads as long as 4” of 5/32 7018 at 125a. This on 120v and with 50ft of extension cord. Absolutely this is overloading the breaker. However, because of the forgiveness of the 20a home breakers, I can essentially run indicated 100a ALL DAY with this machine. Now, that’s where the knob is- I haven’t clamp metered it yet so let’s not get too excited. However, It absolutely will run 1/8” 6010 and 3/32 7018 on 50ft of extension cord on that same 20a breaker (shared with a chest freezer!) and do it for hours upon hours. As in I burned 5lb of rod in one session of practice and it only tripped if I tried to push 110+ amps. The point here is that the more expensive machines with power factor correction (PFC) are a totally different animal in terms of real world 120v function. Yes they cost more. But my little $600 Sanrex was absolutely worth the premium over a Titanium 225 which can barely run a 3/32 6010 on 120v and will struggle to run 3/32 7018 on 120V. A non pfc machine is simply borderline useless on 120V at home and absolutely useless on a 120v-only generator. But with my PFC machine, I can run even 100ft of extension cord on any reasonably free 20a breaker and run 1/8 6010 and 3/32 7018 at 90a. That is SERIOUS real world utility. Since I don’t have dedicated shop space for welding, I often set up a practice area outside behind my unpowered shed. And I’m running 120V on 100ft of extension cord and making great welds with 1/8 6010 and 3/32 7018. Yes, the PFC machines cost a bit more. But they are so much more useful that I’m convinced that you simply MUST buy a PFC machine if you want actual 120V function with common stick rods. When you compare the cost premium of a PFC machine vs non-PFC cheapo and then look at how much more generator you’d have to buy to get similar performance, I’m thinking the PFC upgrade is the cheaper option. Especially if running long extension cords allows you to skip the generator altogether. Yes, at home you can just add the 240V Nema 6-50 like I did and solve your power problem. But you won’t have that in many “field” conditions and if you want your welder to be an actual tool and not just a garage toy, you need PFC.
100% agree. In the generator video I did I mentioned the same thing. A super inefficient non PFC welder will need bigger breakers and a bigger generator just to handle the load without tripping breakers. The additional cost of those things 100% negates cost savings on a cheaper welder. Not to mention like you said, the ability to get legit output on 120v is huge. The fact a average person can take a highly efficient PFC mini welder like the esab rogue I have, and run 1/8th 6010 or 7018, and 3/32 too, on a 20a 120v outlet is huge capability. The fact you could take the shoe box anywhere and weld thicker steel on virtually any outlet is crazy. That’s where cheap vs expensive is a night and day difference.
I had never heard of Sanrex so I called MooreWeld one of the dealers. I told the salesman I was looking at Esab and that Sanrex was building high efficiency i welders with PF correction like Esab. He said that Sanrex used to build Thermal Arc machines before Esab bought Thermal Arc. Sanrex is a large Japanese owned vertically integrated manufacturer. --They make their own semiconductors. Looks like their welders have a few less features but for a lot less cash. I wish someone tested them to make sure they lived up to their claims.
Your absulutly spot on with the residental supply compared to gen. I'm in London Canada but same grid as the USA. I tripped my 30amp breaker in my truck 2022 F150 Powerboost 7200 watt version. That is divided into 2-3600 watt supplies or 1-30 amp 240 volt supply. Stick welding on 120v trips my 20 A breaker in a short time at 125 amps. I bought a 30 amp ext cor that can be used for 120 or 240. It still trips the 120v 30amp leg before 10 seconds of stick welding at 125 amp. Using the 220 volt adapter I can run 5/32 rods at 150 amps and not trip the breaker. I looked into the Ford DC-DC inverter/ breaker specs and it states that the 120-20 amp and 240v 30 amp system will trip at +20% load for over 2 seconds straight. I don't have the paper in front of me so it could be 30% but still the 2 seconds is right. So there's not to much room? Great vid. Thx
What you described is exactly what happens on a generator. You have a max “overall” output but a generator can’t deliver all of that to one circuit, just like your setup can’t put all of that to one side of the output. It screws you on 120v because of the limitations of how much current you can pull from one side, something a house electrical system can be taken advantage of. It’s pretty crazy that devices can be sold that plug into the wall and blatantly overload circuits, most would never know until they try to use a generator or do what you did. Thankfully 240v generally works decent enough to weld on portably. It just sucks if someone bought a 120v only welder lol.
120v 20 amp breaker, small buzz box, I can run up to 3/32 6013 and 6011 rod but no larger. I cannot run 7018AC. For my thin metal and sheet metal welding projects, while the learning curve was steep, it was worth it. It is only now that I realize my power supply's limitations. Still, I'm happy enough that I can weld anything.
My guess is the 7018 just needs a bit too much voltage combined with the amperage to run. It is possible to hit 110-120a on a 20a dedicated breaker, but only a handful of welders will do it. Luckily many 3/32 rods will run sub 70 amps and that’s far easier for many machines to do.
Thanks to modern welders you can actually get decent welds with stick on lower voltage 😀. Glad to hear that you can run 3/32 rods on it. The little 1/16th rods will test your patience 😅
Great video! Down here in Mexico, things are more flexible. One reason is that houses here are made of concrete, so the fire risk is much lower, especially for outdoor sockets on bare walls, as in my case. My welding sockets are also less than 2 feet away from the house main breaker box.
Glad you liked it 😀👍. It’s a ton of info, but it atleast gives realistic expectations. I wish welder companies explained more about what benefits their particular designs offer. Like esab rogue 180-200 can literally weld 1/8th 7018 rods on a 20amp circuit and do legit repair work. This is a huge selling point for anyone doing mobile repair, because access to 20amp outlets is excellent. It’s the first welder I would grab when going to a friends house to do a repair because I know I can do it on whatever outlets there.
A wall outlet gives you about a kilowatt. A properly installed garage outlet, about two kW. A dryer outlet gives you 6kW. Most of the energy ends up in the arc and you can ballpark how much you're using. If you're running FC and your machine says 40A at 14V, you're burning up half a kilowatt in the arc and have about half the circuit left if you need more power. My Hobart doesn't have a current gauge but it does show the average arc current for a few seconds after you let go of the trigger. Inverter welders are a lot more efficient than transformer welders, so you can ignore efficiency in most calculations. If you have a transformer welder, you need to add another 50% power to compensate for losses in the transformer. So if you're running 500W you are probably pulling 700W or more from the outlet. Another handy thing about inverter welders is that they'll shut off if the supply voltage sags because you're cooking the wiring. Older machines will just keep on truckin' and output highly variable work quality. Another thing to remember is that your welder also runs cooler and lasts longer on 220 because there's half the current flowing in the high voltage side.
Great thoughts and thanks for bringing up the high vs low voltage regarding how hard the welder has to work. No doubt dual voltage machines are far happier to run 240v all day at say 140a output over 120v. Far less current draw, higher duty cycle, and a happier welder 😀
Coincidentally, my wire came in today: 6 gauge in the wall for a 50 amp 240v Hubbell receptacle placed 1ft away from the breaker box. Also got 45ft of 8/3 SOOW for use as an extension cord to add on to the ?~6ft cord on the machine. I was really only ever looking to do thin auto body sheet metal on 120v, but it's good to see you can do more *potentially. I already knew my second hand generator wouldn't work, but I looked at it for the heck of it- indeed it's a scam generator. It has a 30a 240v plug but only does 3000 watts continuous. Instead, I have my eye on used army generators that do 3 phase too.
I have seen tons of generators that have 30a 240v plugs, but like yours, only output far less than 7200watts for a real 30a outlet. Of course when you go and try to run a welder on it the welder has minimal output before problems arise. Granted you might actually get some output on 240v because on 120 even a 7600 running watt generator can only output half of that to one leg of the output. You definitely won’t regret going to 240v. You will find most welders will have smoother starts, higher duty cycles, and generally weld far better on higher voltage.
Great explanation on the electrical variables with welders. I see all these TH-camrs promoting the arccatain and how great it is. They never mention the downside on these low price welders, most likely due to being paid or getting a free welder. Regarding generators, with many welders, you need very low total harmonic distortion. That is the benefit of using an inverter generator.
I am not lying when I say this: arc captain has tried to send me free welders no less than 14 times. They are so persistent that I blocked over 6 different email addresses to try to get them to stop (even after telling them). I actually bought 3 cheap flux core welders to try (yes welder, arc captain, and harbor freight). The arc captain ran so poorly I gave up on the idea of testing them because it almost killed my generator lol.
I have been building and servicing generators since the late 60's when I was a teenager, in my experience most generators are rated at unity (1PF) or 0.8 power factor for more modern alternators so a power factor of .41 will make them struggle to keep a stable voltage. Having now retired I have installed a 40 amp 240 volt socket for a small welder.
@@makingmistakeswithgreg In the past I have put power factor correction capacitors on transformer type welders, trouble with inverter type is the surge in voltage at turn off blows the electronics. Many Chinese generators are rated at well above their actual output capacity. I have a diesel one at present supposed to be 26 KVA at 415 volts 3 phase claims to be powered by a Perkins diesel in reality it is a Chinese clone of something like a Kubota or Yanmar single cylinder it will produce about 7 KVA on a single phase but then it only produces the same on 3 phase, the problem is engine power not more than about 12 HP.
You have no idea how many people I’m going to send this video to. I can’t count how many people have complained to me about how they bought a welder “designed to weld on household circuits “ and then decide that they can weld anything that I can on one of my pipe liners. And then they get mad when the bottom drops out for them. Thanks!!!
I successfully ran a hobart 140 mig off an old onan 5.5k generator. Clearly no pipeline welder or anthing, but a quick fix out somewhere was sure in the cards. Repaired my skidsteer bucket with that setup.
The 140s tend to run better on a generator because they don’t have a ton of electronics that shut down when the input voltage drops. Glad to hear your setup worked to get some jobs done 😀👍
And here in Poland 230v x 16A = 3680W. That's all my 230 amp TIG needs. 😁 And the wire to which we connect such sockets allows us to safely transfer 4800W, but rarely any home socket would withstand that.🙃
High efficiency and power factor correction on welders can do amazing things. To hit 230a on an older purely transformer based machine would probably take a 50a breaker lol.
Great video! The timing could not be better because I am considering a 120 volt welder. I have also looked into flux welders. I assumed they would be the same as MIG because they have a motor to drive the wire as well. It looks like I'm going to have to upgrade to a 240 amp circuit based on this explanation. Thanks very much for your video, as always.
No problem. Mig and flux welders both tend to be less efficient than stick/tig welders. The wire drive motor, the more complex screens, and the way they produce output power all make it far harder to have as efficient of a welder.
My predator 4375 (3500 running) will run my esab 180i with a twist lock adapter up to 90-100 amps 7018 by using the hot start around -5. The softer start helps get the generator up to speed without choking it out
The 180 is very efficient and has power factor correction, so you can definitely get a lot of output from it on a smaller generator. The trick with the lower hot start is definitely a solid way to prevent voltage drop at the start. The welder itself might actually use say 13amps to weld on 240v, but startup could be as high as 20. Add voltage sag due to the generator trying to catch up and the Initial amp draw is 26-30a and breakers trip or the welder shuts off due to low voltage.
@ it seems like even at 0 hot start, it’s definitely got a pop to it on start up. Normally when on the generator, I’ll strike an arc and long arc it it warm the rod and let the generator get its shit together and then roll. Seems to work pretty good for what it is. It’s no miller bobcat or any other engine drive welder but it works for what I need it to. Farm repairs mainly
Esab and miller both run great on it. Although I can’t max out the esab 235 I have on the predator, I can achieve around 215a and 25v which is some serious power. Most 200a mig machines can’t hit 200a 21v before the breaker trips because of poor efficiency and power factor. It really does pay to go with a more efficient welder when running on a generator.
Great explanations on 'what to expect' from 120 . . . Welding with a 'cheap' 120 / 220 inverter welder , ( 'arcweld 160 ' Chinesium ) I've had some 'fair' results on the lower voltage input - *but I had to use some 'manipulation tactics' to get it working . PREP is damned important , bevelled & CLEANED . . . Reverse polarity worked ! 'Took a few passes to get a fair weld on 1/4" . " Angry PIXIES are tough to TAME ! " ( Depending on rod size & number ) . . . BUT THEN , YOU KNEW THAT !
You will also typically find welders start rods worse on 120v than 240. Often times it takes some screwing around with settings to get welders to run right on 120. Atleast most will run a bead atleast lol.
@@makingmistakeswithgreg ABSOLUTELY ! Without any adjustments for a hot start , getting an arc to 'light up & STAY LIT' can be a challenge - 7018 is a bit of a bear on 120 - - - ESPECIALLY on cold metal . Although it's not a 'best approach' , I've used 6013 to HEAT UP the beginning of a weld , then the stronger rod will be more manageable . * Reducing the negative variables is a key to many tasks ! While it might be a bit wasteful , I'm fairly certain that pre-heating the weld area 'could' help with keeping the stick LIT . . . ( on thicker stock ) . 1/8" rods tend to ASK for more pixies - & if the machine can't put them out , it's a STRUGGLE ! * 3/32 rods are 'slightly' easier to handle . . . but take a lot more effort AND RODS - to make a solid weld in thicker materials - more heat = more warpage - yet it can be controlled by heating the opposite side of the weld . Knowing the shortcomings of a welder is half the battle . . . ( working with what you have, instead of having better options is an obstacle to many who cannot afford to upgrade , or do not have the capacity to 'hotrod' what they DO HAVE ! ? ) The majority of my welding has been Oxy - Acetylene , on aircraft & Cycle frames ( 4130 - fabrication & repair ) . Thanks for the time & comment !
No problem 😀👍. I won’t lie, I hooked that arc captain onto my 9500 watt generator and thought it would run it no issue, and it definitely won’t lol. When I hooked it up to the electrical meter I setup it was clear as day why it wouldn’t work lol. It’s not just the arc captain either, all flux core machines are in the same boat. Pretty crazy how the devices get away with overloading circuits. It would be a bummer to spend a bunch of money on a welder and a generator to find out it doesn’t work at all.
Greg. Full disclosure: havent watched this one yet. However, just discoverered the existence of inverters large enough to supposedly give 3000-5000 watts continuous. Id be super interested to see your take on how they play with 120v inverter welders. I suspect this could be relevant to a decent amount of people who want to be able to weld around the farm without a costly engine drive welder or a generator that is another machine to maintain.
The biggest issue is most 120v welders grossly overload circuits and generators can’t handle 24-30a loads on one leg of the generator. If you take a 7500 running watt generator it can handle 3750 watts each leg. Thats around 31a, and many 120v welders will peak over that believe it or not. Then the other issue is a generator could output 3750 per leg of output, but not to a single outlet. The thermal fuses they have will trip. The most success with welders on 120v tend to be with simpler transformer machines. They don’t have electronics that shut off when input voltage drops, so they tend to stay welding when modern inverters shut off lol.
Oh lord, clean hands. What’s the world coming to? I’d like to point out that if you constantly trip a breaker and pvc insulation, at some point, that insulation will soften enough that the wire, which is solid and has some slight spring tension from the way they’re pulled through the BX, can break through the insulation. Then it will either short (hopefully) to the BX, and will trip the breaker, or to another live wire, short and again (hopefully) trip the breaker. If either happens, you’re going to have an expensive electrical repair to the wire in your wall. If you unfortunately live in an area where Romex is king, you’ve really got an air conditioner extension cord in your wall. If something happens where the wood stud is attached to the wire with a staple, you can, literally, burn your house down, and yes, it happens!
The place I used to own had an electric heater in the front hall. It never worked when I bought the place. After a couple years I renovated the hall and upon opening the wall I found the romex had melted right where a staple was put. The staple had not been cut the jacket by the look of it, but it was hammered tight enough to likely cause the wire itself to be dented. The stud had started on fire. The wire was 14-2 and the heater was rated for 20a, but on a 15 amp breaker. My guess is the pinched wire and overloading of it over time lead to the issue. No doubt sketchy stuff.
@ yeah. I’ve seen it a number of times es. These guys are supposed to use self limiting staplers that won’t squeeze the insulation. But hey, a hammer is cheaper! Brains are expensive.
Excellent information Greg had an issue with my Lincoln 180 MP comes to find out th machine calls for a 25 amp breaker an I was running at a 20 amp breaker never had any issues running it at 220 volts now I would say I am running it on a 30amp (120 volts) but after watching this detail info I will switch th 30amp breaker due to I could cause internal damage to th unit thank u
No problem 👍. The 180 definately will prefer a 30amp breaker. It is more old school in design and needs a bit more power. You shouldn’t have any issues with tripping a 30a.
If you look at amps on the stick machines , it looks bad, but if you calculate how much actual power it is putting into the weld it is the same. Stick and TIG are going to concentrate more heat to the base metal than the thin MIG wire. If you are needing to weld MIG on 120, and need max penetration, use flux. Most YES welders claim to have PF correction and claim to be very efficent, but guys that test them have not found that to be true at all. Sadly I have resolved to bite the bullet and get a Esab 180i that claims it can run on 300ft of 12ga ( maybe) but they have indeed been tested to have PF and efficiency. On a note, I checked my Lincoln 140 and it was pulling 30A with 36A peak, but I only saw 120A out with .030 wire. I'll test it next with .035.
Thanks for the details on the 140 Lincoln. Since it operates on variable amperage constant voltage (with the amp output based on wire feed speed) you are likely onto something switching to bigger wire. It probably doesn’t have enough feed speed to achieve higher amp output with .030 wire. What you mentioned about many welders having power factor correction and all sorts of other claims is sadly true. Many of them lie about everything. I have owned the esab rogue 180 (and currently own the rogue 200) and they are in a class of their own. Their power factor at varying outputs is .99-1.0, and their efficiency around 120 amps is between 84-92% . They hold near perfect power factor and high efficiency from 60a to 150 (highest I tested them). They will legit output 120a on a 7018 1/8th or 90a on a 1/8 6010 on 120v while only loading the power line to around 23amps. Thats pretty crazy lol.
Get a small generator, and get also a power station of the right size. Generator keeps recharging power station, and the power station can deliver very high currents on bursts depending on model. Once you know what your power station can do with your welder, you might not even need to bring the generator for small repair jobs.
That could possibly work, however the power that a welder requires is pretty absurd. On the low end you’re talking 3k watts continuous to weld just 1/8th steel. It doesn’t take much welding to consume a lot of power.
@@makingmistakeswithgreg Being on 120v is unfortunate. There are powerstations (instagrid and festool powerstation) that put out 230v 16a continous and up to 10kw peak. They are specificly designed to run welders and other heavy powertools. But are as far as I know only in 230v with eu outlets. Anyhow, verry nice video.
@@makingmistakeswithgreg Yes, that would not be a setup for extended use unless you don't mind waiting hours for recharge. What the power station can deliver is a lot of current in bursts. Most small welding machines are also not 100% duty cycle anyways. The power station that is nothing but a lithium battery bank, will accumulate the power from the generator and deliver high bursts when needed. But not all power stations can deliver the current needed so you must know what to buy.
Be sure the electrician wires up your dedicated circuits for your at home welding stations. I have purchased low-budget welders online, and the reviews range from 1-5 (bad to good). The same welder would perform great if on a dual 40-amp breaker 240-VAC (nice results), but sputtered when welding on a 15-amp 120-VAC circuit (very poor results).
You bring up an interesting point. Many of the dual voltage welders (cheap ones) that will power up on 120 often weld poorly. So even though technically they are dual voltage, the performance is bad. I have noticed the stick machines in particular stick rods terribly on 120v but are ok on 240.
Thank you for breaking this down in a more understandable manner, I was wondering if you might know what might I bgt stand for ? I just purchased the weldpro 200 just curious to see if you might be familiar with that feature.
I believe you mean IGBT? If that’s the case it stands for insulated gate bipolar transistor, and it’s an electrical component. In very simple terms it’s typically used to create hight a/c frequency to feed the transformer. The high frequency allows the transformer to be reduced in size significantly and controls the power output of it. Older welders don’t have this and thus they weigh 50+ pounds and have massive transformers lol.
That’s not too surprising. A 90amp output would only need 17-18 output volts to weld. That puts the input load on a generator around 3-3300 watts assuming poor power factor and efficiency. The main limitation of such a setup would be steel thicker than 3/16th will typically weld too cold and inner bead porosity would be a potential issue.
Greg, Thank you for this video. I am Extremely new to welding. I have learned a lot from your videos so far. After 20 years in the Army, I am trying to learn some skills for the later years of my life (Hobbies). A couple of questions: 1. Do you have a video showing something similar about a dual voltage cheapo welder using 220V? I was thinking of using the 220V on my 5K generator to run a cheap a Hobart welder. 2. Can I get better welds using 220V form a generator with the Cheapo dual voltage welder? I live on a farm with multiple out buildings. My wife's brother in law (Not an electrician) told me I have one dedicated circuit that is 40amp 110V outlet. I do not know what wire it is using, but it is the only plug i use for welding. 3. Is it safe enough to use? thank you for any input. ARMY
1) I run all the welders in the videos that are in the last year, on a generator. The closest video to what you’re asking is this video: th-cam.com/video/zHs3xHA_I68/w-d-xo.htmlsi=5_mMC4KSC0yhYwlQ it’s a long video but it shows real world examples of the differences. 2) a 5k running watt generator can support around 180amp with a super efficient power factor corrected welder, and about 140 with a average cheap welder on 240. 3) to my knowledge there is no 40amp 120v receptacle. There is a 40amp breaker and receptacle for 240v. One of the weird things with electrical code is there are odd situations that could permit a 40amp 120v breaker (which does exist) to be used to power outlets rated for less. Or the 40a 120 breaker could be directly wired to a device with no receptacle used. As far as safety is concerned, 40 amp should have 8ga wire, and if the wire is 10 or 12 gauge that would be an issue. If it’s a 240v outlet and you plug in a 120v device that would also be an issue. For what you’re talking about stick welding will likely give you the most bang for the buck. At 90 amps machine output you could weld thick steel pretty easily. Far easier than wire welders. Wire welded need far more power to achieve proper fusion on material 1/4in and over.
@@makingmistakeswithgreg Thank you kindly for the awesome reply. I will check out the other video this morning. The Hobart welder I have now I am pretty sure is not very efficient. I have run it long enough that it shuts off and needs to cool down. I constantly check the cord running to the outlet to make sure it is not getting hot. I have been thinking for a while about installing a 240V outlet. I think it is time to do so. Sad part is the breaker running power to the building is only 55amps (really old). So with Freezers and lights running, I am not sure I can go much more than a 40amp circuit. OR I use my generator and buy a stick welder that it can support. Thank you again ARMY.
@@makingmistakeswithgreg After watching both the video you linked in the reply and the video description, I thought to myself, didn't I buy a stick welder? Sure enough...... I did. Well I went out to my storage Conex and found a YesWelder TIG-205DS new in the box. Dual Voltage, Stick and TIG welder. Now to figure out if my 5K generator will run it. Thank you ARMY
I've had good luck running a transformer based Lincoln weldpak 100 on a 2,400 watt inverter generator. My dual voltage inverter welder will not weld on the inverter generator. The inverter welder has run like a champ on a basic 5,000 and 6,500 watt generator. I can weld at full output or close to it using a 210 amp output inverter welder on the 6500 watt generator.
What you describe is definitely inline with what I have found. Despite transformer welders being less efficient, unstable input voltage doesn’t affect them like an inverter. Under a heavy load you may actually see a reduction in output amperage running a transformer welder on an undersized generator, but it will generally still weld. A inverter machine will typically shut down or fail to weld. The main culprit is an inverter converts the a/c input to d/c, and then takes that d/c and produces its own a/c to feed a transformer. This is done because the inverter portion creates much higher frequency than wall outlet (which is 60hz) because super high frequency improves transformer efficiency and reduces the size of it. Well long story short input power that is dirty, drops voltage, or doesn’t have enough amperage causes the inverter to have major issues, thus typical shut downs.
Flux core has better penetration than mig however it has some limitations. Generally speaking self shielded wire in .035 produces internal weld porosity on 1/4in and thicker steel, so making welds as strong as mig on 1/4 and above becomes tough. In bend tests self shielded flux core seems to be more brittle and less ductile than mig. From a power perspective a 120v flux core machine requires the same power as a mig machine to weld the same thickness. It does operate at slightly less output voltage but the current demand is about the same.
I HAVE A MULTI PROCCESS WELDER. I use it on my 7000w generator from harbor freight. I only use the 240 port i ran 90-99 amps for 45 seconds or less for 30 -40 second cool down , for around 2 hours? is that good? Harbor freight predator 7500 running whats . Thanks. ( I was making a sawmill, still am).
A 7k generator will handle that kind of output without a much of an issue. The main reason is you’re running on 240. It’s the 120 side that will easily get overloaded on a generator 👍
O K so I've got a crazy stupid question. To ask it I first have to illustrate the current situation. You're using a generator that turns gasoline into DC electricity, which has a built-in inverter that converts the DC electricity into AC. You then plug a welder into it which converts the AC electricity into DC electricity to convert metal into momentarily molten metal. Why not use the DC electricity directly, and plug a DC welder into it that just steps up the 12vDC into the DC voltage you want? Sounding much more efficient to me already, but I can be a klutz sometimes. 😅
So generators may or may not generate a/c directly. In the case of a inverter generator I would assume they would generate d/c that was fed into the inverter but they could also generate a/c, rectify it to d/c, and then feed it to the inverter. I guess it doesn’t really matter how it generates power. For what you’re asking (d/c powered welder), the reason that doesn’t exist is more complex than you would think. A/c power has the ability to step up and down voltage via transformers, something that d/c does not. A/c also has less losses in power cables. D/c works great on the small scale aka inside a device you’re using, but on the large scale it has severe draw backs. There are actual d/c output generator welders that skip most of the conversion steps a normal welding system would have. Many older ending drives, “torpedo welders”, and similar output pure d/c. Edit: modern inverter transformers are actually very efficient. At 120a output the esab rogue is over 90% efficient at converting input power to output power. I am not sure how much would be gained via straight d/c. Probably not much because you have to limit amperage and that process would likely generate heat. In a transformer you limit amperage via limiting input voltage to the transformer.
The small lower cost (sub 2k) engine drives are great stick welders, but they don’t have enough generator power to run most welders. Most are 5-6k generators which limits a person to about 160-180amps of mig welder output on a 240v machine. On a 120v machine you likely won’t get above 90-100a before the 120v breaker will trip on them. The nice thing is those portable engine drives stick welders with 150-200a which is super useful and definitely capable of real world welding. A harbor freight outlaw 195 is something like 1600 with coupon, which is far less than a generator and stick welder combo would cost. So no doubt I would 100% go with the portable welder generator route if you want stick welding.
Another good one Greg! Ok so one of my options is to use my millermatic 211 with flux core wire run off my Ranger 300DLX three cylinder deisel Kubota engine. It has a 12000 Watt generator on it. I will run the millermatic 211 on 220 or 240 volts. What's your thoughts? Will it work well for me? I would like to be able to use this set up from time to time out in the field.
So the 211 will like be efficient and possibly has power factor correction. They claim 21.5 volts and 150a mig output at 16.6 amp draw. Thats around 80% overall efficiency. Using the same 80% at 200amp output you would be looking at about 23-24 amps draw at 240v. That is definitely inline with the esab welders I have and well within the ability of that generator. I think without much issue you could max the welder out at its 230amp output. You should be good to go. It’s a good thing you have that much output available, it will give you a lot of flexability with less stress on the generator. A lot people try to run 200amp mig machines on a 5500 generator and that is a recipe for serious voltage drop and Insufficient power lol.
@makingmistakeswithgreg thank you Greg I really appreciate this!. I usually give a super thanks for your help but I don't see the option here on your channel?
Hello Greg I was wondering if you might have any insight on gas tanks? There is someone local trying to sell a larger carbon dioxide tank as welding gas. What should we know about this process ? In my area there is a certain size that can be owned and some that need to be leased.. also if it is carbon can there be an exchange or a fill with different gases? Then there is the issue of hydro tested
Great question. Here is some info: Tanks can be leased or bought. Some companies won’t lease tanks and they often won’t swap a tank without a valid lease on file. Buying someone’s leased tank can be a major issue getting it filled. Hydro test does matter, if the tank is leased generally a company will swap it out without issue. If it’s a personally owned tank you can often have it filled if in test date or sent out for hydro testing for a small fee. I have a bunch of welding stores to deal with so I know what I can exchange where, and have no issues. For you that could be far more complex. I would talk to the local gas supplier to see what they need to work with them. As far as gas mixtures, co2 tanks are only generally good for co2 if they are the smaller ones. They use a different valve setup and normal regulators won’t hook to them without an adapter and many places won’t put anything but co2 in them. Larger normal cylinders can be swapped out with most any gas. I have 14 cylinders of assorted sizes and I swap to different gasses all the time. As far as what gas to start with, 25/75 (or c25) is good for short circuit mig and dual shield. Argon is only used for spool gun wire welding aluminum and tig. 100% co2 is used for short circuit mig and dual shield wire. Depending on what you have for a welder and what you want to do determines gas blend.
So PFC must be integrated into the welder from a design standpoint. If the welder was an older simple transformer it would be fairly easy, but on modern machines it’s far more complicated. The older transformer machines took the approach of improving power factor at higher outputs only, the modern machines like the esab rogue 200 I have maintains near perfect power factor at virtually all output levels. Definitely not easily done, and not possible to do on an existing welder.
The 205 (which I owned one) is excellent and it has power factor correction. I used to weld 1/8th aluminum with it on a 120v 20a household circuit, which is stupidly impressive. On 120 on a generator I think it would probably trip the breaker but on 240 it will run really good.
I will give about a 5% chance it would work. The issue isn’t so much the wattage, it comes down to if that generators breaker will handle the overload. The generator is designed to put 4k watts out over multiple outlets and not a single one. With that said It probably would weld up to 1/8th material though.
I wonder if it would be possible to rewire the generator to take 2 legs of 120 at 20amps and combine them for 240 at 40ish amps output, then use the welder on 240 input for better capabilities. Probably easy to do, but bad for the the generator. Interesting none the less as a possible emergency situation solution if welding thick material was necessary.
So without doing any testing on this, there are some possible solutions. If you only had a 120v welder and it trips the 20amp circuit breaker, it might be possible to use two 120v outlets that are of the same leg and run the welder without the circuit breaker tripping. However I would imagine most generators wouldn’t care for that kind of overload on one leg. The generator I have is rated at 9500 starting watts, 7600 running. I would feel confident saying it would handle 4k steady on one leg. Thats 33 amps, which is right at the threshold of that cheap welders loading. There in lies the problem, because you’re only using one leg of the generator with 120v welder, you effectively cut the output you have to play with in half. On a 10k watt generator no problem, on a 6k it would be a huge problem lol.
Running at less amps on 240V also puts less stress on the welder. There are 125V NEMA-5 30 amp and 50 amp outlets and plugs but they're uncommon to have preinstalled and certainly none of the cheap welders have the correct plug preinstalled.
100% right. The welder has a much higher duty cycle at the same output. I forgot to mention it in the video, but most welders have better starts on 240v, especially stick. Dual voltage is nice for doing simple repairs at a buddies house but 240 is 100% the way to go.
Yep, the 125 will run the same as the welder in the video. I believe it is a bit more efficient by a pinch but it will make quick work of a generator. I tried to run that arc captain on the 9500 predator and I couldn’t even get it above 90a of output lol.
@@makingmistakeswithgreg got a smoking deal on mine because they didn’t have leads or a cover for it $1000. If you wanna come to MN you can test mine 😁
Great question. I can tell you that with stick, it’s cheaper to get something like the outlaw 195 for 1600-1700 with coupon than it would be to buy something like a esab rogue 180 and a 800$+ generator to power jt. With a Cheaper less efficient welder than the rogue 180 you would have to spend even more money on the generator, netting no real savings. The mini engine drive welder gives you better duty cycle, typically better running 6010 rods, and a much simpler setup with just one unit to carry. The downside with the mini engine drives is they commonly don’t have much generator power to run a mig machine, they tig very poorly (scratch start only) and they tend to output dirty power which isn’t the best to run anything with electronics on. The reason I run the 9500 predator is I can run any welding process I want on it and I already had a bunch of welders. If I wanted to do mobile repair on a farm or off grid I would much prefer a small engine drive.
Northern Tool has a Klutch model called the Terminator that competes ( it was 1599 but holdidays are coming so it went to 1649) with the HF Outlaw, but it is a pull start and has a 3 year warranty. Northern Tool also added a multi process version of this with electric start for $1949. The 3yr warranty is pretty nice, but like HF it is a store brand warranty. The coupons that HF has lately say "only in store", and my local stores don't stock the Outlaw 195.. Another viewer mentioned the brand Sanrex. They have PF correction in most of their models. They are a brand distributed by welding supply houses. About 25% cheaper than ESAB. I spoke with the main supplier (MooreWeld), I mentioned to the salesman that they seem to compete with Esab. Hah! He said Sanrex used to be the manufacturer of Thermal Arc before Esab bought them. Power efficient welders might be the way to go and esab and sanrex say they are " dirty " generator tolerant but still hard on them. Before the market got flooded with cheap as possible generators there were non-inverter models with low THD. You can still find them in Generac, Westinghouse and Coleman, but look hard.
That is highway robbery. I ran a 240v circuit to my buddies garage for 400$ and that included all materials, a trencher rental, and a whole plate of burritos lol.
Quickly One of the Best Welding Channels on TH-cam, Cheers From a Fellow Rig Welder in Canada.
Thanks for the kind words 😀👍. I am trying to help people out the best I can.
I have been an electrician for 51 years and started welding in high school since I was 16 years old. That being said I totally agree with your findings. What an excellent training session this was. I even learned allot. Plus, plan on using my 13Kwatt welder to supply power to my stick welder on the farm. I was going to use 240 vac on either the 30 or 50 amp generator outlet. Great video!
In two years I went from never welded at all to being fairly sufficient for non liability projects with my dinky little 120v 90 amp welder, at least as far as dinky little 90 amp welding goes. But alas its time for me to graduate up. My "shop" has a 150 amp supply to the building and currently has two 15 amp breakers. Been using the '90 on the 15s, and I'm good around 16 gauge, but by the time I get to 1/8th I'm tripping the breaker on anything over tack welds or more than 1in beads. So I'm installing one 240v 60 amp and one 120v 30 amp dedicated lines through conduit on the outside of the walls to supply a yet to be bought primeweld 325, and the 120\30 to get the full use from my little '90 and other 120 tools. Greg, you are helping guys like me immensely, I can never fully express my appreciation. Thank you.
No problem 😀👍. No doubt 15amp breakers are very limiting. Once you get a legit 240 hookup and use that new welder you will understand how much of a benefit having a solid 240v hookup is. The power difference is immense. You won’t regret it 👍
@@makingmistakeswithgreg Thanks, man, I am indeed looking forward to it
@@tedbastwock3810You should breaker the 240 circuit for 50 amps, the outlets are rated for 50 amps, not 60 amps.
@@richardmccann4815 Thanks, but I'm not sure what you mean. There are 60 amp outlets too.
Always a master class no matter the subject, thanks Greg
No problem 😀👍
EXCELLENT NUMBER CRUNCHING!!! The way to go...
Too sad many welders simply are unable to run such type of numbers, which are kind of basic and truly needed. CONGRATS on a direct-to-the point video!
I wish there were more affordable highly efficient power factor corrected welders out there. Right now the entry level price for such a machine is in the ballpark of 550$ for a esab rogue 130 and 800$ for the rogue 180. They both average over 87% efficiency with a power factor of .99. You can literally weld anything together on 120v 20a breaker. Every welder in the sub 400$ range will barely output anything on 120v and forget about a generator. Good stuff costs money I guess lol.
It's the reason 98% of the portable generators put out too much distortion for switching power supply welders. The race to the bottom is crowded.
Good parts cost money and they think most won't care and they are right. Look at how many youtube videos there are with someone bragging about a $200 welder.
Thanks for the detailed explanation. Congrats on reaching 30K subs on your channel.
I just realized it hit 30k thanks to your post 😮. On my phone (which I respond to messages mostly) it doesn’t show numbers the same as the computer. I am blown away, I am glad to be making a difference for so many people 😀👍
Thank you very much Greg, I was really considering buying a generator thinking I would get more power, I'm glad I watched this video, can't thank you enough for sharing such valuable information!
No problem. You can definitely get some decent welding done on 120v house outlet with a welder that’s efficient like the esab rogue 200 or many miller/fronius machines. However on a generator it will really limit your ability to weld. Pretty crazy how companies put out products that overload breakers significantly. Most would never know until they hook it to a generator and realize it doesn’t work well lol.
Great channel, awesome delivery of quality info!
I have the same generator (with my anti self smelling shutdown mod).
I'm 100% off grid.
I've gotten some decent welds using 120V with a Titanium 225, but 220V gives much better results.
When it comes down to needing serious chooch, I fire up the 35 KW Guardian.
Thanks for your hard work, and easy to comprehend videos!
The titanium 225 does run well on it when on 240v, I tested that extensively. On 120 I don’t recall testing it because the welder is limited to 70a. One of the weird things is that harbor freight decided to not allow the 225 machine to significantly overload breakers thus a more limited 70a output. Most of the cheap stick welders will allow a setpoint of 90-110 amps on 120 which would easily trip breakers. Clearly they were trying to be in compliant with some form of electrical code, which is something most cheap welders don’t care about lol.
Perfect timing - I have been thinking about getting a generator for my 120V flux core welder. Sounds like I need to re-think my setup.
I have tested 5 welders on 120v (everything from my miller dynasty, esab 235, esab rogue and two cheap flux core machines. All of them struggle on 120 because of the rampant overloading. Many of them literally shut off under load due to the breaker tripping or voltage drop. I do believe it to be possible to weld on 120v on a generator (just today I ran my esab rogue 200 at 65 amps stick on a 25amp circuit on a engine driven welder) but you will never achieve max output that a house outlet will support. They don’t wire or breaker generators to handle 35amp loads on one leg of 120 (240v machines). Switching to a 240v generator and machine will give far more output because the breaker itself will not trip and you’re using both legs of the output power. The situatuation kind of sucks because it limits choices to more expensive welders to get performance on 120v.
I’ve got this generac 5k generator I got in ‘97. It has a 120/240vac setup but the receptacle wasn’t right for my 240vac welder plug. I rewired it with breakers and fed a proper plug. Now it works great and I’m able to run my 120/240v stick/tig welder in the field with 240v.
You definitely will get far more use ability with the 240v than the 120. Having a mobile welding setup is an awesome option, beats trying to find power where you are lol.
@ totally. And that setup was made when I had the crown Vic: I had a cargo carrier on a 2-inch receiver with the genny on it, and the welder with gas bottle in the trunk. Good times!
EXCELLENT video, Greg. I’ve commented before about my little Sanrex 160s Stig machine (stick/tig). At home on a 20a breaker and 120V I have been able to run beads as long as 4” of 5/32 7018 at 125a. This on 120v and with 50ft of extension cord. Absolutely this is overloading the breaker.
However, because of the forgiveness of the 20a home breakers, I can essentially run indicated 100a ALL DAY with this machine. Now, that’s where the knob is- I haven’t clamp metered it yet so let’s not get too excited. However, It absolutely will run 1/8” 6010 and 3/32 7018 on 50ft of extension cord on that same 20a breaker (shared with a chest freezer!) and do it for hours upon hours. As in I burned 5lb of rod in one session of practice and it only tripped if I tried to push 110+ amps.
The point here is that the more expensive machines with power factor correction (PFC) are a totally different animal in terms of real world 120v function. Yes they cost more. But my little $600 Sanrex was absolutely worth the premium over a Titanium 225 which can barely run a 3/32 6010 on 120v and will struggle to run 3/32 7018 on 120V.
A non pfc machine is simply borderline useless on 120V at home and absolutely useless on a 120v-only generator. But with my PFC machine, I can run even 100ft of extension cord on any reasonably free 20a breaker and run 1/8 6010 and 3/32 7018 at 90a. That is SERIOUS real world utility. Since I don’t have dedicated shop space for welding, I often set up a practice area outside behind my unpowered shed. And I’m running 120V on 100ft of extension cord and making great welds with 1/8 6010 and 3/32 7018.
Yes, the PFC machines cost a bit more. But they are so much more useful that I’m convinced that you simply MUST buy a PFC machine if you want actual 120V function with common stick rods.
When you compare the cost premium of a PFC machine vs non-PFC cheapo and then look at how much more generator you’d have to buy to get similar performance, I’m thinking the PFC upgrade is the cheaper option. Especially if running long extension cords allows you to skip the generator altogether. Yes, at home you can just add the 240V Nema 6-50 like I did and solve your power problem. But you won’t have that in many “field” conditions and if you want your welder to be an actual tool and not just a garage toy, you need PFC.
100% agree. In the generator video I did I mentioned the same thing. A super inefficient non PFC welder will need bigger breakers and a bigger generator just to handle the load without tripping breakers. The additional cost of those things 100% negates cost savings on a cheaper welder. Not to mention like you said, the ability to get legit output on 120v is huge. The fact a average person can take a highly efficient PFC mini welder like the esab rogue I have, and run 1/8th 6010 or 7018, and 3/32 too, on a 20a 120v outlet is huge capability. The fact you could take the shoe box anywhere and weld thicker steel on virtually any outlet is crazy. That’s where cheap vs expensive is a night and day difference.
I had never heard of Sanrex so I called MooreWeld one of the dealers. I told the salesman I was looking at Esab and that Sanrex was building high efficiency i welders with PF correction like Esab. He said that Sanrex used to build Thermal Arc machines before Esab bought Thermal Arc.
Sanrex is a large Japanese owned vertically integrated manufacturer. --They make their own semiconductors. Looks like their welders have a few less features but for a lot less cash. I wish someone tested them to make sure they lived up to their claims.
best welding explanations on youtube, thanks bud
No problem, and thanks for the kind comment 😀👍.
Made the complex understandable. Great video and great channel!
Thanks for the kind words. 😀👍
Very informative, thanks Greg.
No problem 😀👍
Your absulutly spot on with the residental supply compared to gen. I'm in London Canada but same grid as the USA. I tripped my 30amp breaker in my truck 2022 F150 Powerboost 7200 watt version. That is divided into 2-3600 watt supplies or 1-30 amp 240 volt supply. Stick welding on 120v trips my 20 A breaker in a short time at 125 amps. I bought a 30 amp ext cor that can be used for 120 or 240. It still trips the 120v 30amp leg before 10 seconds of stick welding at 125 amp. Using the 220 volt adapter I can run 5/32 rods at 150 amps and not trip the breaker. I looked into the Ford DC-DC inverter/ breaker specs and it states that the 120-20 amp and 240v 30 amp system will trip at +20% load for over 2 seconds straight. I don't have the paper in front of me so it could be 30% but still the 2 seconds is right. So there's not to much room? Great vid. Thx
What you described is exactly what happens on a generator. You have a max “overall” output but a generator can’t deliver all of that to one circuit, just like your setup can’t put all of that to one side of the output. It screws you on 120v because of the limitations of how much current you can pull from one side, something a house electrical system can be taken advantage of. It’s pretty crazy that devices can be sold that plug into the wall and blatantly overload circuits, most would never know until they try to use a generator or do what you did. Thankfully 240v generally works decent enough to weld on portably. It just sucks if someone bought a 120v only welder lol.
You are SO FULL of info!! Thanks Greg!
No problem 😀👍
120v 20 amp breaker, small buzz box, I can run up to 3/32 6013 and 6011 rod but no larger. I cannot run 7018AC. For my thin metal and sheet metal welding projects, while the learning curve was steep, it was worth it. It is only now that I realize my power supply's limitations. Still, I'm happy enough that I can weld anything.
My guess is the 7018 just needs a bit too much voltage combined with the amperage to run. It is possible to hit 110-120a on a 20a dedicated breaker, but only a handful of welders will do it. Luckily many 3/32 rods will run sub 70 amps and that’s far easier for many machines to do.
i bought a little 120v canadian tire for 100$ and it works great with 1/16 rod or 3/32 i was impressed
Thanks to modern welders you can actually get decent welds with stick on lower voltage 😀. Glad to hear that you can run 3/32 rods on it. The little 1/16th rods will test your patience 😅
Great video! Down here in Mexico, things are more flexible. One reason is that houses here are made of concrete, so the fire risk is much lower, especially for outdoor sockets on bare walls, as in my case. My welding sockets are also less than 2 feet away from the house main breaker box.
FANTASTIC INFO GREG!!!!
Glad you liked it 😀👍. It’s a ton of info, but it atleast gives realistic expectations. I wish welder companies explained more about what benefits their particular designs offer. Like esab rogue 180-200 can literally weld 1/8th 7018 rods on a 20amp circuit and do legit repair work. This is a huge selling point for anyone doing mobile repair, because access to 20amp outlets is excellent. It’s the first welder I would grab when going to a friends house to do a repair because I know I can do it on whatever outlets there.
A wall outlet gives you about a kilowatt. A properly installed garage outlet, about two kW. A dryer outlet gives you 6kW. Most of the energy ends up in the arc and you can ballpark how much you're using. If you're running FC and your machine says 40A at 14V, you're burning up half a kilowatt in the arc and have about half the circuit left if you need more power. My Hobart doesn't have a current gauge but it does show the average arc current for a few seconds after you let go of the trigger.
Inverter welders are a lot more efficient than transformer welders, so you can ignore efficiency in most calculations. If you have a transformer welder, you need to add another 50% power to compensate for losses in the transformer. So if you're running 500W you are probably pulling 700W or more from the outlet.
Another handy thing about inverter welders is that they'll shut off if the supply voltage sags because you're cooking the wiring. Older machines will just keep on truckin' and output highly variable work quality.
Another thing to remember is that your welder also runs cooler and lasts longer on 220 because there's half the current flowing in the high voltage side.
Great thoughts and thanks for bringing up the high vs low voltage regarding how hard the welder has to work. No doubt dual voltage machines are far happier to run 240v all day at say 140a output over 120v. Far less current draw, higher duty cycle, and a happier welder 😀
Coincidentally, my wire came in today: 6 gauge in the wall for a 50 amp 240v Hubbell receptacle placed 1ft away from the breaker box. Also got 45ft of 8/3 SOOW for use as an extension cord to add on to the ?~6ft cord on the machine. I was really only ever looking to do thin auto body sheet metal on 120v, but it's good to see you can do more *potentially. I already knew my second hand generator wouldn't work, but I looked at it for the heck of it- indeed it's a scam generator. It has a 30a 240v plug but only does 3000 watts continuous. Instead, I have my eye on used army generators that do 3 phase too.
240 is the way to go.
I have seen tons of generators that have 30a 240v plugs, but like yours, only output far less than 7200watts for a real 30a outlet. Of course when you go and try to run a welder on it the welder has minimal output before problems arise. Granted you might actually get some output on 240v because on 120 even a 7600 running watt generator can only output half of that to one leg of the output.
You definitely won’t regret going to 240v. You will find most welders will have smoother starts, higher duty cycles, and generally weld far better on higher voltage.
Great explanation on the electrical variables with welders. I see all these TH-camrs promoting the arccatain and how great it is. They never mention the downside on these low price welders, most likely due to being paid or getting a free welder. Regarding generators, with many welders, you need very low total harmonic distortion. That is the benefit of using an inverter generator.
I am not lying when I say this: arc captain has tried to send me free welders no less than 14 times. They are so persistent that I blocked over 6 different email addresses to try to get them to stop (even after telling them). I actually bought 3 cheap flux core welders to try (yes welder, arc captain, and harbor freight). The arc captain ran so poorly I gave up on the idea of testing them because it almost killed my generator lol.
I have been building and servicing generators since the late 60's when I was a teenager, in my experience most generators are rated at unity (1PF) or 0.8 power factor for more modern alternators so a power factor of .41 will make them struggle to keep a stable voltage. Having now retired I have installed a 40 amp 240 volt socket for a small welder.
Many cheap welders at outputs below 70% are around .46 to .60 power factor, which is pretty bad to be running on a generator.
@@makingmistakeswithgreg In the past I have put power factor correction capacitors on transformer type welders, trouble with inverter type is the surge in voltage at turn off blows the electronics. Many Chinese generators are rated at well above their actual output capacity. I have a diesel one at present supposed to be 26 KVA at 415 volts 3 phase claims to be powered by a Perkins diesel in reality it is a Chinese clone of something like a Kubota or Yanmar single cylinder it will produce about 7 KVA on a single phase but then it only produces the same on 3 phase, the problem is engine power not more than about 12 HP.
You have no idea how many people I’m going to send this video to. I can’t count how many people have complained to me about how they bought a welder “designed to weld on household circuits “ and then decide that they can weld anything that I can on one of my pipe liners. And then they get mad when the bottom drops out for them. Thanks!!!
No problem 😀👍
I successfully ran a hobart 140 mig off an old onan 5.5k generator. Clearly no pipeline welder or anthing, but a quick fix out somewhere was sure in the cards. Repaired my skidsteer bucket with that setup.
The 140s tend to run better on a generator because they don’t have a ton of electronics that shut down when the input voltage drops. Glad to hear your setup worked to get some jobs done 😀👍
And here in Poland 230v x 16A = 3680W. That's all my 230 amp TIG needs. 😁 And the wire to which we connect such sockets allows us to safely transfer 4800W, but rarely any home socket would withstand that.🙃
High efficiency and power factor correction on welders can do amazing things. To hit 230a on an older purely transformer based machine would probably take a 50a breaker lol.
Yep, same in most parts of Europe. Plus every house has three phase 230V 16 or 32A available at some place 😅
Great video! The timing could not be better because I am considering a 120 volt welder. I have also looked into flux welders. I assumed they would be the same as MIG because they have a motor to drive the wire as well. It looks like I'm going to have to upgrade to a 240 amp circuit based on this explanation. Thanks very much for your video, as always.
No problem. Mig and flux welders both tend to be less efficient than stick/tig welders. The wire drive motor, the more complex screens, and the way they produce output power all make it far harder to have as efficient of a welder.
My predator 4375 (3500 running) will run my esab 180i with a twist lock adapter up to 90-100 amps 7018 by using the hot start around -5. The softer start helps get the generator up to speed without choking it out
The 180 is very efficient and has power factor correction, so you can definitely get a lot of output from it on a smaller generator. The trick with the lower hot start is definitely a solid way to prevent voltage drop at the start. The welder itself might actually use say 13amps to weld on 240v, but startup could be as high as 20. Add voltage sag due to the generator trying to catch up and the Initial amp draw is 26-30a and breakers trip or the welder shuts off due to low voltage.
@ it seems like even at 0 hot start, it’s definitely got a pop to it on start up. Normally when on the generator, I’ll strike an arc and long arc it it warm the rod and let the generator get its shit together and then roll. Seems to work pretty good for what it is. It’s no miller bobcat or any other engine drive welder but it works for what I need it to. Farm repairs mainly
upon watching your generator video a while back, I decided to get the same one as you-predator 9500. Plan to upgrade to esab or a nice miller soon.
I didnt go inverter but my 9500 predator runs the arccap mig 200 like a clydesdales
Esab and miller both run great on it. Although I can’t max out the esab 235 I have on the predator, I can achieve around 215a and 25v which is some serious power. Most 200a mig machines can’t hit 200a 21v before the breaker trips because of poor efficiency and power factor. It really does pay to go with a more efficient welder when running on a generator.
Great explanations on 'what to expect' from 120 . . . Welding with a 'cheap' 120 / 220 inverter welder , ( 'arcweld 160 ' Chinesium ) I've had some 'fair' results on the lower voltage input - *but I had to use some 'manipulation tactics' to get it working . PREP is damned important , bevelled & CLEANED . . . Reverse polarity worked ! 'Took a few passes to get a fair weld on 1/4" . " Angry PIXIES are tough to TAME ! " ( Depending on rod size & number ) . . . BUT THEN , YOU KNEW THAT !
You will also typically find welders start rods worse on 120v than 240. Often times it takes some screwing around with settings to get welders to run right on 120. Atleast most will run a bead atleast lol.
@@makingmistakeswithgreg ABSOLUTELY ! Without any adjustments for a hot start , getting an arc to 'light up & STAY LIT' can be a challenge - 7018 is a bit of a bear on 120 - - - ESPECIALLY on cold metal . Although it's not a 'best approach' , I've used 6013 to HEAT UP the beginning of a weld , then the stronger rod will be more manageable . * Reducing the negative variables is a key to many tasks ! While it might be a bit wasteful , I'm fairly certain that pre-heating the weld area 'could' help with keeping the stick LIT . . . ( on thicker stock ) . 1/8" rods tend to ASK for more pixies - & if the machine can't put them out , it's a STRUGGLE ! * 3/32 rods are 'slightly' easier to handle . . . but take a lot more effort AND RODS - to make a solid weld in thicker materials - more heat = more warpage - yet it can be controlled by heating the opposite side of the weld . Knowing the shortcomings of a welder is half the battle . . . ( working with what you have, instead of having better options is an obstacle to many who cannot afford to upgrade , or do not have the capacity to 'hotrod' what they DO HAVE ! ? )
The majority of my welding has been Oxy - Acetylene , on aircraft & Cycle frames ( 4130 - fabrication & repair ) .
Thanks for the time & comment !
I borrow the 50A service for my range. With the right gear it seems to be perfectly safe.
Great presentation thanks ..you saved allot of people money and greif!
No problem 😀👍. I won’t lie, I hooked that arc captain onto my 9500 watt generator and thought it would run it no issue, and it definitely won’t lol. When I hooked it up to the electrical meter I setup it was clear as day why it wouldn’t work lol. It’s not just the arc captain either, all flux core machines are in the same boat. Pretty crazy how the devices get away with overloading circuits. It would be a bummer to spend a bunch of money on a welder and a generator to find out it doesn’t work at all.
Greg. Full disclosure: havent watched this one yet. However, just discoverered the existence of inverters large enough to supposedly give 3000-5000 watts continuous. Id be super interested to see your take on how they play with 120v inverter welders.
I suspect this could be relevant to a decent amount of people who want to be able to weld around the farm without a costly engine drive welder or a generator that is another machine to maintain.
The biggest issue is most 120v welders grossly overload circuits and generators can’t handle 24-30a loads on one leg of the generator. If you take a 7500 running watt generator it can handle 3750 watts each leg. Thats around 31a, and many 120v welders will peak over that believe it or not. Then the other issue is a generator could output 3750 per leg of output, but not to a single outlet. The thermal fuses they have will trip. The most success with welders on 120v tend to be with simpler transformer machines. They don’t have electronics that shut off when input voltage drops, so they tend to stay welding when modern inverters shut off lol.
Oh lord, clean hands. What’s the world coming to? I’d like to point out that if you constantly trip a breaker and pvc insulation, at some point, that insulation will soften enough that the wire, which is solid and has some slight spring tension from the way they’re pulled through the BX, can break through the insulation. Then it will either short (hopefully) to the BX, and will trip the breaker, or to another live wire, short and again (hopefully) trip the breaker. If either happens, you’re going to have an expensive electrical repair to the wire in your wall. If you unfortunately live in an area where Romex is king, you’ve really got an air conditioner extension cord in your wall. If something happens where the wood stud is attached to the wire with a staple, you can, literally, burn your house down, and yes, it happens!
The place I used to own had an electric heater in the front hall. It never worked when I bought the place. After a couple years I renovated the hall and upon opening the wall I found the romex had melted right where a staple was put. The staple had not been cut the jacket by the look of it, but it was hammered tight enough to likely cause the wire itself to be dented. The stud had started on fire. The wire was 14-2 and the heater was rated for 20a, but on a 15 amp breaker. My guess is the pinched wire and overloading of it over time lead to the issue. No doubt sketchy stuff.
@ yeah. I’ve seen it a number of times es. These guys are supposed to use self limiting staplers that won’t squeeze the insulation. But hey, a hammer is cheaper! Brains are expensive.
Excellent information Greg had an issue with my Lincoln 180 MP comes to find out th machine calls for a 25 amp breaker an I was running at a 20 amp breaker never had any issues running it at 220 volts now I would say I am running it on a 30amp (120 volts) but after watching this detail info I will switch th 30amp breaker due to I could cause internal damage to th unit thank u
No problem 👍. The 180 definately will prefer a 30amp breaker. It is more old school in design and needs a bit more power. You shouldn’t have any issues with tripping a 30a.
If you look at amps on the stick machines , it looks bad, but if you calculate how much actual power it is putting into the weld it is the same. Stick and TIG are going to concentrate more heat to the base metal than the thin MIG wire. If you are needing to weld MIG on 120, and need max penetration, use flux.
Most YES welders claim to have PF correction and claim to be very efficent, but guys that test them have not found that to be true at all. Sadly I have resolved to bite the bullet and get a Esab 180i that claims it can run on 300ft of 12ga ( maybe) but they have indeed been tested to have PF and efficiency.
On a note, I checked my Lincoln 140 and it was pulling 30A with 36A peak, but I only saw 120A out with .030 wire. I'll test it next with .035.
Thanks for the details on the 140 Lincoln. Since it operates on variable amperage constant voltage (with the amp output based on wire feed speed) you are likely onto something switching to bigger wire. It probably doesn’t have enough feed speed to achieve higher amp output with .030 wire.
What you mentioned about many welders having power factor correction and all sorts of other claims is sadly true. Many of them lie about everything. I have owned the esab rogue 180 (and currently own the rogue 200) and they are in a class of their own. Their power factor at varying outputs is .99-1.0, and their efficiency around 120 amps is between 84-92% . They hold near perfect power factor and high efficiency from 60a to 150 (highest I tested them). They will legit output 120a on a 7018 1/8th or 90a on a 1/8 6010 on 120v while only loading the power line to around 23amps. Thats pretty crazy lol.
Hey, happy Halloween there big fella!
Happy Halloween 🎃 😀👍
Get a small generator, and get also a power station of the right size. Generator keeps recharging power station, and the power station can deliver very high currents on bursts depending on model. Once you know what your power station can do with your welder, you might not even need to bring the generator for small repair jobs.
That could possibly work, however the power that a welder requires is pretty absurd. On the low end you’re talking 3k watts continuous to weld just 1/8th steel. It doesn’t take much welding to consume a lot of power.
@@makingmistakeswithgreg Being on 120v is unfortunate.
There are powerstations (instagrid and festool powerstation) that put out 230v 16a continous and up to 10kw peak. They are specificly designed to run welders and other heavy powertools.
But are as far as I know only in 230v with eu outlets.
Anyhow, verry nice video.
@@makingmistakeswithgreg Yes, that would not be a setup for extended use unless you don't mind waiting hours for recharge. What the power station can deliver is a lot of current in bursts. Most small welding machines are also not 100% duty cycle anyways. The power station that is nothing but a lithium battery bank, will accumulate the power from the generator and deliver high bursts when needed. But not all power stations can deliver the current needed so you must know what to buy.
Be sure the electrician wires up your dedicated circuits for your at home welding stations. I have purchased low-budget welders online, and the reviews range from 1-5 (bad to good). The same welder would perform great if on a dual 40-amp breaker 240-VAC (nice results), but sputtered when welding on a 15-amp 120-VAC circuit (very poor results).
You bring up an interesting point. Many of the dual voltage welders (cheap ones) that will power up on 120 often weld poorly. So even though technically they are dual voltage, the performance is bad. I have noticed the stick machines in particular stick rods terribly on 120v but are ok on 240.
Thank you for breaking this down in a more understandable manner, I was wondering if you might know what might I bgt stand for ? I just purchased the weldpro 200 just curious to see if you might be familiar with that feature.
I believe you mean IGBT? If that’s the case it stands for insulated gate bipolar transistor, and it’s an electrical component. In very simple terms it’s typically used to create hight a/c frequency to feed the transformer. The high frequency allows the transformer to be reduced in size significantly and controls the power output of it. Older welders don’t have this and thus they weigh 50+ pounds and have massive transformers lol.
Old 90 amp 120 volt HF flux core wire welder works on my 3500 Watt 120v inverter generator and my 3000 Watt 12v dc to 120v ac inverter.
That’s not too surprising. A 90amp output would only need 17-18 output volts to weld. That puts the input load on a generator around 3-3300 watts assuming poor power factor and efficiency. The main limitation of such a setup would be steel thicker than 3/16th will typically weld too cold and inner bead porosity would be a potential issue.
Greg, Thank you for this video. I am Extremely new to welding.
I have learned a lot from your videos so far.
After 20 years in the Army, I am trying to learn some skills for the later years of my life (Hobbies).
A couple of questions:
1. Do you have a video showing something similar about a dual voltage cheapo welder using 220V?
I was thinking of using the 220V on my 5K generator to run a cheap a Hobart welder.
2. Can I get better welds using 220V form a generator with the Cheapo dual voltage welder?
I live on a farm with multiple out buildings.
My wife's brother in law (Not an electrician) told me I have one dedicated circuit that is 40amp 110V outlet. I do not know what wire it is using, but it is the only plug i use for welding.
3. Is it safe enough to use?
thank you for any input.
ARMY
1) I run all the welders in the videos that are in the last year, on a generator. The closest video to what you’re asking is this video: th-cam.com/video/zHs3xHA_I68/w-d-xo.htmlsi=5_mMC4KSC0yhYwlQ it’s a long video but it shows real world examples of the differences.
2) a 5k running watt generator can support around 180amp with a super efficient power factor corrected welder, and about 140 with a average cheap welder on 240.
3) to my knowledge there is no 40amp 120v receptacle. There is a 40amp breaker and receptacle for 240v. One of the weird things with electrical code is there are odd situations that could permit a 40amp 120v breaker (which does exist) to be used to power outlets rated for less. Or the 40a 120 breaker could be directly wired to a device with no receptacle used. As far as safety is concerned, 40 amp should have 8ga wire, and if the wire is 10 or 12 gauge that would be an issue. If it’s a 240v outlet and you plug in a 120v device that would also be an issue.
For what you’re talking about stick welding will likely give you the most bang for the buck. At 90 amps machine output you could weld thick steel pretty easily. Far easier than wire welders. Wire welded need far more power to achieve proper fusion on material 1/4in and over.
@@makingmistakeswithgreg Thank you kindly for the awesome reply.
I will check out the other video this morning.
The Hobart welder I have now I am pretty sure is not very efficient.
I have run it long enough that it shuts off and needs to cool down.
I constantly check the cord running to the outlet to make sure it is not getting hot.
I have been thinking for a while about installing a 240V outlet. I think it is time to do so.
Sad part is the breaker running power to the building is only 55amps (really old).
So with Freezers and lights running, I am not sure I can go much more than a 40amp circuit.
OR I use my generator and buy a stick welder that it can support.
Thank you again
ARMY.
@@makingmistakeswithgreg After watching both the video you linked in the reply and the video description, I thought to myself, didn't I buy a stick welder? Sure enough...... I did.
Well I went out to my storage Conex and found a YesWelder TIG-205DS new in the box. Dual Voltage, Stick and TIG welder.
Now to figure out if my 5K generator will run it.
Thank you
ARMY
I've had good luck running a transformer based Lincoln weldpak 100 on a 2,400 watt inverter generator. My dual voltage inverter welder will not weld on the inverter generator. The inverter welder has run like a champ on a basic 5,000 and 6,500 watt generator. I can weld at full output or close to it using a 210 amp output inverter welder on the 6500 watt generator.
What you describe is definitely inline with what I have found. Despite transformer welders being less efficient, unstable input voltage doesn’t affect them like an inverter. Under a heavy load you may actually see a reduction in output amperage running a transformer welder on an undersized generator, but it will generally still weld. A inverter machine will typically shut down or fail to weld. The main culprit is an inverter converts the a/c input to d/c, and then takes that d/c and produces its own a/c to feed a transformer. This is done because the inverter portion creates much higher frequency than wall outlet (which is 60hz) because super high frequency improves transformer efficiency and reduces the size of it. Well long story short input power that is dirty, drops voltage, or doesn’t have enough amperage causes the inverter to have major issues, thus typical shut downs.
Is that for the land line? Or phone jack?
12:00 It would be nice if flux core could be added to discussions like this since it has better penetration than MIG.
Flux core has better penetration than mig however it has some limitations. Generally speaking self shielded wire in .035 produces internal weld porosity on 1/4in and thicker steel, so making welds as strong as mig on 1/4 and above becomes tough. In bend tests self shielded flux core seems to be more brittle and less ductile than mig. From a power perspective a 120v flux core machine requires the same power as a mig machine to weld the same thickness. It does operate at slightly less output voltage but the current demand is about the same.
I HAVE A MULTI PROCCESS WELDER. I use it on my 7000w generator from harbor freight. I only use the 240 port i ran 90-99 amps for 45 seconds or less for 30 -40 second cool down , for around 2 hours? is that good? Harbor freight predator 7500 running whats . Thanks. ( I was making a sawmill, still am).
A 7k generator will handle that kind of output without a much of an issue. The main reason is you’re running on 240. It’s the 120 side that will easily get overloaded on a generator 👍
@@makingmistakeswithgreg thanks Greg!
O K so I've got a crazy stupid question. To ask it I first have to illustrate the current situation.
You're using a generator that turns gasoline into DC electricity, which has a built-in inverter that converts the DC electricity into AC. You then plug a welder into it which converts the AC electricity into DC electricity to convert metal into momentarily molten metal.
Why not use the DC electricity directly, and plug a DC welder into it that just steps up the 12vDC into the DC voltage you want? Sounding much more efficient to me already, but I can be a klutz sometimes. 😅
Oh and don't forget to add a car battery as a power buffer and a capacitor bank to the welder to give that extra jolt of juice when you start an arc.
So generators may or may not generate a/c directly. In the case of a inverter generator I would assume they would generate d/c that was fed into the inverter but they could also generate a/c, rectify it to d/c, and then feed it to the inverter. I guess it doesn’t really matter how it generates power. For what you’re asking (d/c powered welder), the reason that doesn’t exist is more complex than you would think. A/c power has the ability to step up and down voltage via transformers, something that d/c does not. A/c also has less losses in power cables. D/c works great on the small scale aka inside a device you’re using, but on the large scale it has severe draw backs. There are actual d/c output generator welders that skip most of the conversion steps a normal welding system would have. Many older ending drives, “torpedo welders”, and similar output pure d/c.
Edit: modern inverter transformers are actually very efficient. At 120a output the esab rogue is over 90% efficient at converting input power to output power. I am not sure how much would be gained via straight d/c. Probably not much because you have to limit amperage and that process would likely generate heat. In a transformer you limit amperage via limiting input voltage to the transformer.
Could you use a lower cost engine-driven welder instead of a standard generator?
The small lower cost (sub 2k) engine drives are great stick welders, but they don’t have enough generator power to run most welders. Most are 5-6k generators which limits a person to about 160-180amps of mig welder output on a 240v machine. On a 120v machine you likely won’t get above 90-100a before the 120v breaker will trip on them.
The nice thing is those portable engine drives stick welders with 150-200a which is super useful and definitely capable of real world welding. A harbor freight outlaw 195 is something like 1600 with coupon, which is far less than a generator and stick welder combo would cost. So no doubt I would 100% go with the portable welder generator route if you want stick welding.
Another good one Greg!
Ok so one of my options is to use my millermatic 211 with flux core wire run off my Ranger 300DLX three cylinder deisel Kubota engine. It has a 12000 Watt generator on it. I will run the millermatic 211 on 220 or 240 volts. What's your thoughts? Will it work well for me? I would like to be able to use this set up from time to time out in the field.
So the 211 will like be efficient and possibly has power factor correction. They claim 21.5 volts and 150a mig output at 16.6 amp draw. Thats around 80% overall efficiency. Using the same 80% at 200amp output you would be looking at about 23-24 amps draw at 240v. That is definitely inline with the esab welders I have and well within the ability of that generator. I think without much issue you could max the welder out at its 230amp output. You should be good to go. It’s a good thing you have that much output available, it will give you a lot of flexability with less stress on the generator. A lot people try to run 200amp mig machines on a 5500 generator and that is a recipe for serious voltage drop and Insufficient power lol.
@makingmistakeswithgreg thank you Greg I really appreciate this!. I usually give a super thanks for your help but I don't see the option here on your channel?
This was to the point all make sense
Hello Greg I was wondering if you might have any insight on gas tanks? There is someone local trying to sell a larger carbon dioxide tank as welding gas. What should we know about this process ? In my area there is a certain size that can be owned and some that need to be leased.. also if it is carbon can there be an exchange or a fill with different gases? Then there is the issue of hydro tested
Would it be best to start with argon or 25/75 mix?
Great question. Here is some info:
Tanks can be leased or bought. Some companies won’t lease tanks and they often won’t swap a tank without a valid lease on file. Buying someone’s leased tank can be a major issue getting it filled. Hydro test does matter, if the tank is leased generally a company will swap it out without issue. If it’s a personally owned tank you can often have it filled if in test date or sent out for hydro testing for a small fee. I have a bunch of welding stores to deal with so I know what I can exchange where, and have no issues. For you that could be far more complex. I would talk to the local gas supplier to see what they need to work with them.
As far as gas mixtures, co2 tanks are only generally good for co2 if they are the smaller ones. They use a different valve setup and normal regulators won’t hook to them without an adapter and many places won’t put anything but co2 in them. Larger normal cylinders can be swapped out with most any gas. I have 14 cylinders of assorted sizes and I swap to different gasses all the time.
As far as what gas to start with, 25/75 (or c25) is good for short circuit mig and dual shield. Argon is only used for spool gun wire welding aluminum and tig. 100% co2 is used for short circuit mig and dual shield wire. Depending on what you have for a welder and what you want to do determines gas blend.
Most welders don’t have PFC. Is it difficult or costly to add it to a welder?
So PFC must be integrated into the welder from a design standpoint. If the welder was an older simple transformer it would be fairly easy, but on modern machines it’s far more complicated. The older transformer machines took the approach of improving power factor at higher outputs only, the modern machines like the esab rogue 200 I have maintains near perfect power factor at virtually all output levels. Definitely not easily done, and not possible to do on an existing welder.
I have a esab rebel 205ic ac/dc and run it on a generator. But I run it on the 230 side but never pop a breaker. I'll have to try it on the 120 side
The 205 (which I owned one) is excellent and it has power factor correction. I used to weld 1/8th aluminum with it on a 120v 20a household circuit, which is stupidly impressive. On 120 on a generator I think it would probably trip the breaker but on 240 it will run really good.
What about my titanium 120? Can I weld on a running predator generator 4K watts?
I will give about a 5% chance it would work. The issue isn’t so much the wattage, it comes down to if that generators breaker will handle the overload. The generator is designed to put 4k watts out over multiple outlets and not a single one. With that said It probably would weld up to 1/8th material though.
@ thanks for the input Greg!
I wonder if it would be possible to rewire the generator to take 2 legs of 120 at 20amps and combine them for 240 at 40ish amps output, then use the welder on 240 input for better capabilities. Probably easy to do, but bad for the the generator. Interesting none the less as a possible emergency situation solution if welding thick material was necessary.
So without doing any testing on this, there are some possible solutions. If you only had a 120v welder and it trips the 20amp circuit breaker, it might be possible to use two 120v outlets that are of the same leg and run the welder without the circuit breaker tripping. However I would imagine most generators wouldn’t care for that kind of overload on one leg. The generator I have is rated at 9500 starting watts, 7600 running. I would feel confident saying it would handle 4k steady on one leg. Thats 33 amps, which is right at the threshold of that cheap welders loading. There in lies the problem, because you’re only using one leg of the generator with 120v welder, you effectively cut the output you have to play with in half. On a 10k watt generator no problem, on a 6k it would be a huge problem lol.
Running at less amps on 240V also puts less stress on the welder. There are 125V NEMA-5 30 amp and 50 amp outlets and plugs but they're uncommon to have preinstalled and certainly none of the cheap welders have the correct plug preinstalled.
100% right. The welder has a much higher duty cycle at the same output. I forgot to mention it in the video, but most welders have better starts on 240v, especially stick. Dual voltage is nice for doing simple repairs at a buddies house but 240 is 100% the way to go.
That explains why my flux core 125 titanium couldn't run on a generator
Yep, the 125 will run the same as the welder in the video. I believe it is a bit more efficient by a pinch but it will make quick work of a generator. I tried to run that arc captain on the 9500 predator and I couldn’t even get it above 90a of output lol.
I weld off a generator with my Vulcan outlaw 195 😂
The 195 seems pretty sweet. I kind of want to get one to test.
@@makingmistakeswithgreg got a smoking deal on mine because they didn’t have leads or a cover for it $1000. If you wanna come to MN you can test mine 😁
so you would be better off buying a gas powered welder that goes for about 2200 bucks rather than a bigger generator?
Great question. I can tell you that with stick, it’s cheaper to get something like the outlaw 195 for 1600-1700 with coupon than it would be to buy something like a esab rogue 180 and a 800$+ generator to power jt. With a Cheaper less efficient welder than the rogue 180 you would have to spend even more money on the generator, netting no real savings. The mini engine drive welder gives you better duty cycle, typically better running 6010 rods, and a much simpler setup with just one unit to carry. The downside with the mini engine drives is they commonly don’t have much generator power to run a mig machine, they tig very poorly (scratch start only) and they tend to output dirty power which isn’t the best to run anything with electronics on. The reason I run the 9500 predator is I can run any welding process I want on it and I already had a bunch of welders. If I wanted to do mobile repair on a farm or off grid I would much prefer a small engine drive.
Northern Tool has a Klutch model called the Terminator that competes ( it was 1599 but holdidays are coming so it went to 1649) with the HF Outlaw, but it is a pull start and has a 3 year warranty. Northern Tool also added a multi process version of this with electric start for $1949. The 3yr warranty is pretty nice, but like HF it is a store brand warranty.
The coupons that HF has lately say "only in store", and my local stores don't stock the Outlaw 195..
Another viewer mentioned the brand Sanrex. They have PF correction in most of their models. They are a brand distributed by welding supply houses. About 25% cheaper than ESAB. I spoke with the main supplier (MooreWeld), I mentioned to the salesman that they seem to compete with Esab. Hah! He said Sanrex used to be the manufacturer of Thermal Arc before Esab bought them. Power efficient welders might be the way to go and esab and sanrex say they are " dirty " generator tolerant but still hard on them.
Before the market got flooded with cheap as possible generators there were non-inverter models with low THD. You can still find them in Generac, Westinghouse and Coleman, but look hard.
Electricians want $3200 to run 50A 240V service to my garage (attached). Seems like highway robbery.
That is highway robbery. I ran a 240v circuit to my buddies garage for 400$ and that included all materials, a trencher rental, and a whole plate of burritos lol.