HOLYYYY MOLLLLY. thank you. can't tell you how long I've been waiting for someone to do some more scientific testing of the fettec esc (still holding out hope for someone to get it on a scope and see what pwm it runs at and if it's at 128khz all the time or what / how sine-like it really is, but ...). Thank you for taking the time to do this. Have to hold back, remain objective and not fall into confirmation bias here, but it meshes really well with my experience with bl32, bluejay, and fettec. the claims of significantly better efficiency on fettec was never something I realized unless I just, well, didn't fly as hard. and my experience with fettec is that it was smooth, but you could mirror that by detuning a bl32 esc, too. additionally the EMI side is very interesting. that particular ESC has a decent history of blowing itself up. the 35a version seems to have a better track record though. if you dig up more information about this emi issue, hope you'll pass it along.
I had an unflyable quad until I added shielding between the ESC and FC. The EMI from the ESC MOSFETS was causing the 32bit arm chip to hang when the motor current increased. Adding a metal plate between the two boards solved the issue. KISS 25A 4in1 and KISS fltctrl
Double Bonus! Thanks once again Chris! Finally, someone properly explains (and tests) sinosidal esc's, which advertising indicated was superior without explanation. Also, the AOS 5" ultralight frame is just what I have been looking for and, based on my experience with the AOS 5.5", ordering one was an easy decision. Great work!
When someone advertises that somethig is better without explanation or testing the usual reason is that it isn't truly better. Otherwise they could explain why and show data to back up their marketing! And they would shout about the improved performance.
I recently tried the FETtec G4 with both the Foxeer Reaper (BLHELI_32) and the FETtec 45A ESC and I preferred the Reaper honestly. Couldn't put my finger on exactly why but this video makes a lot of sense.
Same for me. I couldn't find anyone talking about this problem. The FC would just become unresponsive whenever the motors surged, it was very difficult to debug for a newbie.
Over the past year of fpv, I have only ever owned blheli S.. But I finally am building a new 5in, and have a hobbywing 60A 4in1 coming, tomorrow. So I will finally get to experience blheli 32. I'm excited
Thank you, this shows again that a flight feel can lead to wrong conclusions. nice to see that with good firmware Bluejay escs are still not far behind.
@@ChrisRosser Not mentioned the price difference. On the other side i support the work paid with blheli_32 because it just runs without problems. if they really test and check every hardware, it is ok for me. i dont fly to save my money. .-)
Very interesting and informative video. My primary build is running the Tekko32 F4 esc with the Ultra fc. Very smooooth flyer. My backup is the Fettec F7 with the Fettec 45a esc. Also very smooth and controllable combo. Possibly due to the lower thrust but still ample braking, running dshot 2400 on both fc boards . It feels great and I get good flight time. Thanks for sharing. 👍😎
Trapezoidal mode gives more power and torque, but at what cost in temperature? I wonder if the sinusoidal mode could actually run higher average power in the long run considering meltdown. Like if I put it on a bench with variable voltage and unlimited current and I just wanted the max from the motor... might the sinusoidal mode win?
I have blown every BLHeli 32 Esc I have ever used with a kiss or fettec FC... BLHeli S however flashed with BlueJay are rock solid and makes a tank. BTW the BLH32 Esc's were Mambas and Xrotor 60amps running spike absorber and caps. Win win for me as BLHeli S are half the price :)
I had a very difficult to debug issue because of the EMI produced by a FETTECH ESC (actually a KISS 25A 4in1). Adding shielding in the form of a metal plate gave immediate results. I think I'll switch to a shielding board or copper tape in the future. The flight controler (KISS 32) would hang whenever the current to the motors increased.
Hey chris. I usually fly in the low end of the throttle way more often than I am high throttle. Would you say I could benefit from trying sinusoidal mode on my blheli32 escs? Edit; nvm I guess we don't have the motors for it lol
Great job Chris ! Your work confirms what I'm thinking about the Fettec ESC.. does not worth the price. I had 2 Fettec ESC both blowed up for no reason.
I had a few pop off in the first few packs..... I put replacements in them an have been running the shit out of them hard for over a year.... Its sooooo confusing
No, I twisted the cables to the load cells on the test stand. Twisting motor cables is unlikely to have much effect on EMI production. Twisting a signal wire with ground helps reduce the effect of EMI on the signal though .
Kiss/fettec seem to have a built in smoke mode!! I've had four and they have just smoked on the bench for now apparent reason. Doing a motor test in the kiss gui, had to restart the gui, connected the power back to the fc and ...puff, the smoke was released. Another dead kiss.
Is better raw data above translate with how nice the flight characteristic is? Or are the downside of kiss esc make my freestyle quad more lock in and had a better handling?
Chris, do you think the EMI shields should be grounded to FC as the mamba instructions state, or would esc possibly be better choice? Also slightly off topic but question about noise/vibration reduction… I’ve seen lots of focus on soft mounting FCs to negate mechanical vibrations and proper filter settings, but have you looked at the acoustic effect spinning props have on FCs at all? Something I’ve been curious about, you seem like the right person to ask!
If you mean how audible noise might affect a flight controller... well, sound is a pressure wave mostly created by the props in our application.. the frequencies of 4 props will vibrate the flight controller at various frequencies and amplitudes.. also with harmonic resonances. If you mean something else by the word 'accoustics' please elaborate.
@@paulhope3401 That’s exactly what I meant, thanks. Most quads have FC exposed to that open air so close to the prop tips, I wonder how much of a difference it would make to better isolate them from that…
I typically ground EMI shields to the FC but either should be ok. As for acoustic noise I think it's mainly transmitted through the frame. Gases are terrible at transferring vibration compared to solids.
@@Sek101 In my mind at least, a pressure wave from a prop hitting the FC will have far lower effect than it being transmitted through the FC via the arms but I will be interested to hear what Chris says about it. For FPV you are typically flying forward so props out config and an ESC cooling path from the front of the quad is probably the optimal approach for that side of things.
Great review and educational information! Is there a way you can share your test setup? Is it something you might make a video of how you made it? This might be a great way to have others test like you do and maybe confirm your results or challenge the way we can test products and influence them for the better!
I will only say these 2 things: 1. BEMF escs are NOT sinusoidal commutated but rather they use what is called "modified trapezoidal commutation" and 2nd EMI issues arise from badly designed PCB's : ) PS: sinusoidal commutation using BEMF has to meet 1 extra criterion like min 2 phases with current reading on them(ideally all 3 have to have current shunts on them) to be able to mathematically calculate stuff to be able to include "true" sinusoidal commutation which includes more than 2 fets controlled at a time. And even then you have to know the motor parameters a thing impossible to know on all fpv style motors plus other disadvantages. So... FPV ESC'S are only trapezoidal or modified trapezoidal commutation but you can call it sinusoidal :)
@@ChrisRosser as I've said if u use bemf to read motor position and you have no other means of knowing or calculate exact position (position sensor or current reading on each phase) it cant be full sin :) it could be something that imitates... but this info is generally available if you look for it...
Thank you for doing this test. Great work. I seem to remember from your other Blheli tests that running them faster reduced peak power. Do you think running the Fettec in 128khz mode could be the reason for the reduced peak thrust?
Excellent analysis. I'm glad I waited and will continue to wait; I've only purchased the FETTEC spike absorber and honestly don't notice any difference in flight characteristics with or without it (HW combo). I will say this though'; I'm going back to my individual ECS; my brand new HW 4n1 didn't like the recent crash (not even a bent blade mind you) motor #3 now inop. Back to DYS indiv's for the moment
@@finleystannard well it's the ESC that generate spike not the lipo. Lipo can only swag. ESC is the one that generate power from braking thus generating voltage spike. And not just breaking but when it switch the mosfet, etc.
@@finleystannard Thanks for clarifying its true purpose...so lets see, voltage spikes getting to the esc surely would not affect flight characteristics---what was I thinking! Therefore, adding the spike absorber to help mitigate voltage spikes from getting to the esc won't in some small way help flight characteristics being that the motors are somewhat controlled by the esc therefore in some small way flight characteristics...yeah what was I thinking!!
The main benefit of the spike absorber is to prevent damage to the ESC FETs from overvoltage. This damage can be cumulative and eventually cause a FET to fail. A spike absorber prevents that damage occurring.
@@ChrisRosser I think that's a cost thing, it also seems the best option always tries to bring us back to an analog wave form, so I'm guessing this maybe the best option available to us for the tech availability and price point? I view it as simply as notchy or wiggly and smooth, goddamed electric witchcraft.
The BL32 ESC has a higher rating and is still less expensive than the FETTEC (by quite a bit!). I guess it would have been fairer to use an even more expensive even higher rated BL32 ESC but the F55 Pro looked like the best option.
All this testing and I still get better quicker flying quads with Fettec idk I personally think it has to do with the fact blheli doesn’t make their own escs so the software never works as good as it could
i wish i could even BEGIN to understand half the stuff you study. None of it makes sense to me. I just flash and fly. Most of the time. Stock anything normally works for me. I dont get involved in filters, and pwm frequencies and all that. Cuz im one of the few that just does not understand it. and i doubt I ever will. for those who do. congrats. cuz its confusing as hell. i need it translated into laymans terms.
![☀ Самый дорогой коптер под фристайл. Настройка, облет, ЖАРЕВО! [Full KISS Quad II]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/8HlnIRami1Y/mqdefault.jpg)
Thank you so much for bringing more science to the hobby and finally clearing up debates where people used feelings more than facts !
hype = $$$
This guy is saving us common folk some serious dough with these tests. I hope more people start doing these type of videos.
HOLYYYY MOLLLLY. thank you. can't tell you how long I've been waiting for someone to do some more scientific testing of the fettec esc (still holding out hope for someone to get it on a scope and see what pwm it runs at and if it's at 128khz all the time or what / how sine-like it really is, but ...). Thank you for taking the time to do this. Have to hold back, remain objective and not fall into confirmation bias here, but it meshes really well with my experience with bl32, bluejay, and fettec. the claims of significantly better efficiency on fettec was never something I realized unless I just, well, didn't fly as hard. and my experience with fettec is that it was smooth, but you could mirror that by detuning a bl32 esc, too. additionally the EMI side is very interesting. that particular ESC has a decent history of blowing itself up. the 35a version seems to have a better track record though. if you dig up more information about this emi issue, hope you'll pass it along.
I think you are right about the EMI, definitely going to try some shielding
Go for it! Let me know if it makes a difference for you.
I had an unflyable quad until I added shielding between the ESC and FC. The EMI from the ESC MOSFETS was causing the 32bit arm chip to hang when the motor current increased. Adding a metal plate between the two boards solved the issue. KISS 25A 4in1 and KISS fltctrl
Great video! Thanks for including the segmentation with the chapters !
Finally the 5" UL is there! Thank you!!
Enjoy!
I learned something today! great information here Chris, thanks!
Double Bonus! Thanks once again Chris! Finally, someone properly explains (and tests) sinosidal esc's, which advertising indicated was superior without explanation. Also, the AOS 5" ultralight frame is just what I have been looking for and, based on my experience with the AOS 5.5", ordering one was an easy decision. Great work!
When someone advertises that somethig is better without explanation or testing the usual reason is that it isn't truly better. Otherwise they could explain why and show data to back up their marketing! And they would shout about the improved performance.
Great stuff Chris. I don't comprehend a lot of the terminology but I do understand the bottom line and that's OK. Cheers.
I recently tried the FETtec G4 with both the Foxeer Reaper (BLHELI_32) and the FETtec 45A ESC and I preferred the Reaper honestly. Couldn't put my finger on exactly why but this video makes a lot of sense.
I once had an EMI issue on a quad. I used a piece of aluminium foil with electrical tape on both sides as the screen between the ESC and FC.
Same for me. I couldn't find anyone talking about this problem. The FC would just become unresponsive whenever the motors surged, it was very difficult to debug for a newbie.
Hey mate thanks so much for the video! Hopefully I can solve some of my issues!!
Your videos are pure gold...
How do I switch the fettec from sinusoidal to trapezoidal commutation?
Great stuff! Thanks for your contributions to the hobby.
My pleasure!
Over the past year of fpv, I have only ever owned blheli S.. But I finally am building a new 5in, and have a hobbywing 60A 4in1 coming, tomorrow. So I will finally get to experience blheli 32. I'm excited
Thank you, this shows again that a flight feel can lead to wrong conclusions. nice to see that with good firmware Bluejay escs are still not far behind.
Bluejay goes toe to toe with BLHeli32 in every respect. Very impressive given that it runs on a much less powerful processor.
@@ChrisRosser Not mentioned the price difference. On the other side i support the work paid with blheli_32 because it just runs without problems. if they really test and check every hardware, it is ok for me. i dont fly to save my money. .-)
That UL5 is so tempting x.x
Thanks again for doing the science for us!
Fantastic Video Chris
Glad you enjoyed it
Very interesting and informative video. My primary build is running the Tekko32 F4 esc with the Ultra fc. Very smooooth flyer. My backup is the Fettec F7 with the Fettec 45a esc. Also very smooth and controllable combo. Possibly due to the lower thrust but still ample braking, running dshot 2400 on both fc boards . It feels great and I get good flight time. Thanks for sharing. 👍😎
Trapezoidal mode gives more power and torque, but at what cost in temperature? I wonder if the sinusoidal mode could actually run higher average power in the long run considering meltdown. Like if I put it on a bench with variable voltage and unlimited current and I just wanted the max from the motor... might the sinusoidal mode win?
Great video. Have you plans to test the AM32 firmware?
good idea! open source AM32!
I have blown every BLHeli 32 Esc I have ever used with a kiss or fettec FC... BLHeli S however flashed with BlueJay are rock solid and makes a tank. BTW the BLH32 Esc's were Mambas and Xrotor 60amps running spike absorber and caps. Win win for me as BLHeli S are half the price :)
I had a very difficult to debug issue because of the EMI produced by a FETTECH ESC (actually a KISS 25A 4in1). Adding shielding in the form of a metal plate gave immediate results. I think I'll switch to a shielding board or copper tape in the future. The flight controler (KISS 32) would hang whenever the current to the motors increased.
Hey chris. I usually fly in the low end of the throttle way more often than I am high throttle. Would you say I could benefit from trying sinusoidal mode on my blheli32 escs?
Edit; nvm I guess we don't have the motors for it lol
Sinusoidal mode is less efficient at low throttle and no smoother so I would avoid it.
Very informative and easy to follow. Would be interesting to see same test for kiss ultra with kiss esc 🙏
Great job Chris !
Your work confirms what I'm thinking about the Fettec ESC.. does not worth the price. I had 2 Fettec ESC both blowed up for no reason.
I had a few pop off in the first few packs..... I put replacements in them an have been running the shit out of them hard for over a year.... Its sooooo confusing
Very nice video! Thank you! So you twisted the cables from the ESC to the motors ? I've been wondering if twisting those cables would reduce the EMI.
No, I twisted the cables to the load cells on the test stand. Twisting motor cables is unlikely to have much effect on EMI production. Twisting a signal wire with ground helps reduce the effect of EMI on the signal though .
谢谢你的视频，解决了我困扰很久的问题，thank you soooo much！
Could you do a video on Delta vs Star motor windings?
Which is better for what we do? is one more efficient on the batteries?
Yes, the median is better than mean if there are extreme outliers! Good choice.
Thanks, the outliers aren't extreme but the median is much more stable between repeats 😁
the AOS UL5 use 12x12 motor mount?
FPVcycle 23mm tall ? 21mm ?
ECO II 2104 is the best I've tested so far. FPVCycle 21mm might be good.
Werry useful information... Thanks for 😊
Welcome 😊
Kiss/fettec seem to have a built in smoke mode!! I've had four and they have just smoked on the bench for now apparent reason. Doing a motor test in the kiss gui, had to restart the gui, connected the power back to the fc and ...puff, the smoke was released. Another dead kiss.
Is better raw data above translate with how nice the flight characteristic is? Or are the downside of kiss esc make my freestyle quad more lock in and had a better handling?
Absolutely. The slow acceleration of FETTEC ESC will make the quad feel less locked in.
Chris, do you think the EMI shields should be grounded to FC as the mamba instructions state, or would esc possibly be better choice?
Also slightly off topic but question about noise/vibration reduction… I’ve seen lots of focus on soft mounting FCs to negate mechanical vibrations and proper filter settings, but have you looked at the acoustic effect spinning props have on FCs at all? Something I’ve been curious about, you seem like the right person to ask!
If you mean how audible noise might affect a flight controller... well, sound is a pressure wave mostly created by the props in our application.. the frequencies of 4 props will vibrate the flight controller at various frequencies and amplitudes.. also with harmonic resonances.
If you mean something else by the word 'accoustics' please elaborate.
@@paulhope3401 That’s exactly what I meant, thanks. Most quads have FC exposed to that open air so close to the prop tips, I wonder how much of a difference it would make to better isolate them from that…
I typically ground EMI shields to the FC but either should be ok. As for acoustic noise I think it's mainly transmitted through the frame. Gases are terrible at transferring vibration compared to solids.
@@Sek101 In my mind at least, a pressure wave from a prop hitting the FC will have far lower effect than it being transmitted through the FC via the arms but I will be interested to hear what Chris says about it.
For FPV you are typically flying forward so props out config and an ESC cooling path from the front of the quad is probably the optimal approach for that side of things.
Great review and educational information! Is there a way you can share your test setup? Is it something you might make a video of how you made it? This might be a great way to have others test like you do and maybe confirm your results or challenge the way we can test products and influence them for the better!
You can buy my test setup from Tyto robotics here: www.tytorobotics.com/products/thrust-stand-series-1580?variant=16152808718438
I will only say these 2 things: 1. BEMF escs are NOT sinusoidal commutated but rather they use what is called "modified trapezoidal commutation" and 2nd EMI issues arise from badly designed PCB's : ) PS: sinusoidal commutation using BEMF has to meet 1 extra criterion like min 2 phases with current reading on them(ideally all 3 have to have current shunts on them) to be able to mathematically calculate stuff to be able to include "true" sinusoidal commutation which includes more than 2 fets controlled at a time. And even then you have to know the motor parameters a thing impossible to know on all fpv style motors plus other disadvantages. So... FPV ESC'S are only trapezoidal or modified trapezoidal commutation but you can call it sinusoidal :)
FETTEC are calling it Full Sinusoidal Commutation. If its actually modified trapezoidal then that's a bit of a cheat!
@@ChrisRosser as I've said if u use bemf to read motor position and you have no other means of knowing or calculate exact position (position sensor or current reading on each phase) it cant be full sin :) it could be something that imitates... but this info is generally available if you look for it...
I like it when I am right. BL_Heli32 FTW!!!
Thank you for doing this test. Great work.
I seem to remember from your other Blheli tests that running them faster reduced peak power. Do you think running the Fettec in 128khz mode could be the reason for the reduced peak thrust?
For BLHeli32 128kHz PWM actually improved top end power.
@@ChrisRosser Ah.. thats right, I now remember it was the braking that was affected. Thanks.
@@paulhope3401 Yes braking was badly compromised with min PWM frequencies higher than 48K
Conclusion - KISS ultra v2 plus BLHelli will be the better than Fettec ESC - if build from scratch. Correct ?
I tend to favour Betaflight + AM_32 for flight performance today.
When my Mamba 128k 55a ESC is used with G4, the yaw direction vibrates
Check your stack mounting. Are you using a golden nut?
Excellent analysis. I'm glad I waited and will continue to wait; I've only purchased the FETTEC spike absorber and honestly don't notice any difference in flight characteristics with or without it (HW combo). I will say this though'; I'm going back to my individual ECS; my brand new HW 4n1 didn't like the recent crash (not even a bent blade mind you) motor #3 now inop. Back to DYS indiv's for the moment
Hahaha your joking right ? , the spike absorber doesn't affect flight characteristics at all, it helps stop volatge spikes getting to your esc
@@finleystannard well it's the ESC that generate spike not the lipo. Lipo can only swag. ESC is the one that generate power from braking thus generating voltage spike. And not just breaking but when it switch the mosfet, etc.
@@finleystannard Thanks for clarifying its true purpose...so lets see, voltage spikes getting to the esc surely would not affect flight characteristics---what was I thinking! Therefore, adding the spike absorber to help mitigate voltage spikes from getting to the esc won't in some small way help flight characteristics being that the motors are somewhat controlled by the esc therefore in some small way flight characteristics...yeah what was I thinking!!
The main benefit of the spike absorber is to prevent damage to the ESC FETs from overvoltage. This damage can be cumulative and eventually cause a FET to fail. A spike absorber prevents that damage occurring.
@@ChrisRosser Thank you Chris for the life line!!
could I use emi shielding copper foil tape?
yes. just make sure you don't short anything.
Thanks Chris¡¡¡
Oh so Fettec is FOC? Or is FSC between PWM and FOC?
Fettec is PWM, sinusoidal commutation. No drone ESCs use field oriented control as far as I am aware.
@@ChrisRosser I think that's a cost thing, it also seems the best option always tries to bring us back to an analog wave form, so I'm guessing this maybe the best option available to us for the tech availability and price point? I view it as simply as notchy or wiggly and smooth, goddamed electric witchcraft.
Good video
Pure technical and mathematical facts. 👌👍 Unfortunately not suitable for some people. 😉🙃😁
test a FOC ESC too
i like the better video quality, but video and audio seem a tad unsync or is it just me? otherwise as always great video!
Thanks, I'm working on improving my setup. Audio seems in sync for me but it does depend on device sometimes with TH-cam!
noice
Ok but u using fettec 45A and blhelli 32 55A that it is not matters in the test ????? Just asking
The BL32 ESC has a higher rating and is still less expensive than the FETTEC (by quite a bit!). I guess it would have been fairer to use an even more expensive even higher rated BL32 ESC but the F55 Pro looked like the best option.
Totally true 🙂and blhelli gives us even more options for a better configuration 😉
All this testing and I still get better quicker flying quads with Fettec idk I personally think it has to do with the fact blheli doesn’t make their own escs so the software never works as good as it could
did you fly it?
I haven't yet. I don't think I could as easily tell the difference in flight. You need a bench test to see the difference clearly.
Typical response from fettec "NOT OUR FAULT"
I don't see where they said that?
Single ESCs always cost more than a 4 in 1.
Unless you only need to replace one of each, once per year.. 🙃
i wish i could even BEGIN to understand half the stuff you study. None of it makes sense to me. I just flash and fly. Most of the time. Stock anything normally works for me. I dont get involved in filters, and pwm frequencies and all that. Cuz im one of the few that just does not understand it. and i doubt I ever will. for those who do. congrats. cuz its confusing as hell. i need it translated into laymans terms.
I hope you enjoy the videos. It's complicated at first but once you get used to all the settings it's easy to make your quad fly better.
Sine motors are quiet