Thanks for sharing the results of your extensive experience in real conditions! After lots of experimentation including spending a winter in a tent in the Yukon, I use a down bag with a synthetic overbag, inside a tucked or goretex bivy. The condensation collects in the overbag, while the down stays dry. You can easily dry out the synthetic overbag in the daytime. I find vapor barrier bags miserable, not a fan of waking up wet. Bama boot liners at Marks over wool socks are amazing for keeping your feet dry. Easy to dry overnight. 4 seasons tree planting in northern Ontario in steel toe rubber boots, this was my go to technique.
When do you have time to dry the overbag out? That’s one of the things I can never wrap my head around 🤣 A lot of people like that system so it must work! Why the bivy?
@ A thin synthetic overbag seems to dry fairly easily. Generally in extended cold conditions you would have access to some wood heat, but I think even sunlight and dry cold air will do something. The bivy bag adds to the insulation and moves the dew point further out so there is less condensation in the sleeping bags.
Vapor liner was a game changer. I use bagel bags over synthetic toe sock liners, then a light or medium weight wool sock. For water, HDPE Nalgene but also new this season Tritan Nalgene which is lighter than Lexan. It's weight but I also carry a thermos. Boil water in the morning and fill it. Being able to have a hot drink in the middle of the day without a stove makes the cold much more tolerable. I still haven't figured out the best combination for my hands during snowshoeing.
Neoprene sock over light poly liner. Neoprene is essentially a vapour barrier and insulation combined. The insulation never gets wet and soggy and provides an even layer of cushion over your whole foot.
So many great ideas in the video. I have exactly the same issue with finding the koozie for the 500ml Nalgene, so thanks for the link. Been unfreezing my boots in the morning using hot Nalgene bottles, in hind sight it makes so much sense to just use waterproof socks. Got to try that for my next trip.
How timely! I plan to make a 40F topquilt for this winter...I may make a simple vapor barrier like you showed! I honestly think a separate vid for gloves and a separate vid for feet, etc (something along those lines) would be amazing!!! You know, like "Water in the Winter". Thank you so much!
I found a different bottle insulation on Amazon. A little bulkier and heavier than neoprene. Still lightweight and usable in my backpack side pockets. Reflective interior and a zipper closing cover for full protection. I’ve never hit the temps that you reach but they’ve worked above zero F for me
There are so many options on amazon. This one does the trick for me. It doesn't work as well as a purpose built model, but helps things stay warm a little longer and isn't too bulky. What's yours called?
I love using wool military gloves inside of marmot precip waterproof shell mittens. Only thing I’ve found to keep my hands warm. Warning: the marmot shells run extremely small and won’t fit most larger adult male hands
Thanks for the information. I'll be interested to see how that waterproof sock works out for you. I've struggled with my ski touring boots freezing overnight on ski camps.
Great video and insight! 1- yes dealing with your feet and hands is hell😂😂😂 2- I’ve been backpacking with waterproof socks in shoulder season this year and it’s a game changer! I’m super excited to test them as vapour barrier this winter. Only thing I’m wondering is will they freeze overnight…. 3- that coozie system for the small bottle is revolutionary!!! I use it to make coffe to go in the morning and I love it!!!
Legit question(I don’t have experience winter backpacking): how would the waterproof socks freeze overnight if they are under the insulative socks? Seems like they would just get filled with warm moisture you would have to dry out in the morning
@dylanpausic5026 super important to take the vapour barrier off at night and switch to dry socks or your feet turn to prunes and start to rot. Once you take wet socks off they freeze. There are different ways to deal with the wet socks, either putting them in a plastic bag and sleeping with them, trying to dry them out, or letting them freeze and thawing them in the morning before putting them on. Putting we socks on in the morning is never fun but it only feels unpleasant for a few seconds.
@ that makes sense. Thanks for the explanation! Love your channel and Justin’s for the winter camping exposure.. hard to find good content on it on TH-cam. 🙏
@@KaneDoesOutdoors I do get wet feet because of my sweat. But it never gets this bad.... but certainly going to be interesting for the next day because that interior fabric will be wet
I checked the Amazon link for the socks. They're advertised as "breathable". I've used Dexshell socks which are also advertised as waterproof breathable. They did keep my feet dry, but the insides of my boots were still damp from the vapour that passed through the barrier. Bummer. Some kind of plastic or neoprene VBL seem to be the best bet. Great video, mate. 👍
Alex hibbert has a couple of videos on VBLs. He found some trash bags that are quite durable and flexible, hippo sacks. I use 8L “freezer bags” on my feet. They are a bit thicker than the regular bread bags. Intuition EVA boot liners are great inside the ski boots. This year I will try to use them inside my exped bivy boots in lieu of down booties.
I'm sure there are some bags out there that would do the trick. I forgot to mention another factor: the slippery feel in ski boots. You want a solid connect between your feet and boot on the downhill. I'm optimistic about these socks! My understanding was that moldable ski boot liners are EVA. Mine seem like it but they still absorb some moisture and stiffen in the night.
@PHYSIZIST I’ve tried that.weird stuff happens when you walk/ski all day, plastic bags have a way of working their way down into my boots no matter what I do.. My preference is generally the lowest number of items which is why I’m so hopeful for these socks.
Going to try goretex wpb sock (bridgedale) in a non waterproof 200g insulated boot this year on day snowshoe trips. These socks work (I use them kayaking). MEC had them for cheap. Waterproof boots make my feet too damp. I use phone for nav so below -15c use Decathlon screen touch running gloves as liners, then a flip mit over. Hard to find a good flip mitt thats breathable though!
I use the waterproof socks when I canoe and have been very happy for wet entry. Last winter I used them on a four day, 25-35F trip. The worked well, kept the sweat inside, at night I would turn them inside out in my sleeping bag and they would semi dry. I think I liked VBL better though, because you can let the bag freeze and shake off the ice. Still have damp socks I suppose.
Definitely a few points to evaluate. You've raised my main concern, in that the inner material will get wet. That's the advantage of using a VBL directly against your skin - the sock stays dry. It's just frustrating when the VBL shifts and wiggles down your foot under a sock. We'll see which is better, or maybe which approach is less annoying.
@KaneDoesOutdoors right, my Sealskinz socks are basically 3 layers, inner merino, waterproof membrane and outer acrylic wool I think. So the inner still got damp, but it was comfortable to put on in the morning if I slept with it.
What about just using a rain jacket, rain pants, and some latex gloves + turkey/bread bags on your feet? That way you could hike in the VBLs as well but do you think it would work as well? And have you seen the GooseFeetGear Overbooties? They can layer over something like EE Torrid socks to create a liner+shell system.
Yes I've tried the rain jacket and pants approach. I use my shell as a VBL to protect my down coat when I stop in camp or on the trail. Just gets a little cumbersome in the sleeping bag, plus a thin VBL liner bag weighs less than most shell pants.
I’ve recently found it very hard to dry the days hiking clothes (shirt and waist band on pants) during the night at camp. I don’t ever bother with fires. I’ve tried hanging them in my tent. Putting them in a stuff sack in the bottom of my bag with a hot Nalgene over night. Nothing seems to really work and they’re still damp and cold in the morning.
Primary. I’m pretty impressed with the fit. I never wear liner socks, just a good quality ski sock. My ski boots are molded so the fit is quite precise, no room for multiple layers.
Let me know if there are any specific topics or how to you'd like covered. I'll cue requests up when I'm outside on trips.
Thank you for this awesome video! There is not a lot of this really detailed information about winter backpacking on TH-cam. I really appreciate this.
Thanks. It’s the stuff that I find interesting and it seems like people find it useful. More to come.
Thanks for sharing the results of your extensive experience in real conditions! After lots of experimentation including spending a winter in a tent in the Yukon, I use a down bag with a synthetic overbag, inside a tucked or goretex bivy. The condensation collects in the overbag, while the down stays dry. You can easily dry out the synthetic overbag in the daytime. I find vapor barrier bags miserable, not a fan of waking up wet. Bama boot liners at Marks over wool socks are amazing for keeping your feet dry. Easy to dry overnight. 4 seasons tree planting in northern Ontario in steel toe rubber boots, this was my go to technique.
When do you have time to dry the overbag out? That’s one of the things I can never wrap my head around 🤣 A lot of people like that system so it must work!
Why the bivy?
@ A thin synthetic overbag seems to dry fairly easily. Generally in extended cold conditions you would have access to some wood heat, but I think even sunlight and dry cold air will do something. The bivy bag adds to the insulation and moves the dew point further out so there is less condensation in the sleeping bags.
Vapor liner was a game changer. I use bagel bags over synthetic toe sock liners, then a light or medium weight wool sock.
For water, HDPE Nalgene but also new this season Tritan Nalgene which is lighter than Lexan. It's weight but I also carry a thermos. Boil water in the morning and fill it. Being able to have a hot drink in the middle of the day without a stove makes the cold much more tolerable.
I still haven't figured out the best combination for my hands during snowshoeing.
Neoprene sock over light poly liner. Neoprene is essentially a vapour barrier and insulation combined. The insulation never gets wet and soggy and provides an even layer of cushion over your whole foot.
An option for winter boots but not molded ski boots...
So many great ideas in the video. I have exactly the same issue with finding the koozie for the 500ml Nalgene, so thanks for the link. Been unfreezing my boots in the morning using hot Nalgene bottles, in hind sight it makes so much sense to just use waterproof socks. Got to try that for my next trip.
How timely! I plan to make a 40F topquilt for this winter...I may make a simple vapor barrier like you showed! I honestly think a separate vid for gloves and a separate vid for feet, etc (something along those lines) would be amazing!!! You know, like "Water in the Winter". Thank you so much!
One thing is for sure, a simple VBL will take 1/5 the time to make compared to a quilt!
I only use one fabric for a VBL - plastic all the way. I know it's not most comfy but if you're serious about blocking vapour.....
Great video! Thank you. Super useful, interesting informative content. Please, keep the good winter videos coming!
I found a different bottle insulation on Amazon. A little bulkier and heavier than neoprene. Still lightweight and usable in my backpack side pockets. Reflective interior and a zipper closing cover for full protection. I’ve never hit the temps that you reach but they’ve worked above zero F for me
There are so many options on amazon. This one does the trick for me. It doesn't work as well as a purpose built model, but helps things stay warm a little longer and isn't too bulky. What's yours called?
@ mine says Nalgene with a weird swirling symbol thing 😊
I love using wool military gloves inside of marmot precip waterproof shell mittens. Only thing I’ve found to keep my hands warm. Warning: the marmot shells run extremely small and won’t fit most larger adult male hands
Interesting, I’ll look into that.
Thanks for the information. I'll be interested to see how that waterproof sock works out for you. I've struggled with my ski touring boots freezing overnight on ski camps.
I’ll be reporting back for sure!
Great video and insight!
1- yes dealing with your feet and hands is hell😂😂😂
2- I’ve been backpacking with waterproof socks in shoulder season this year and it’s a game changer! I’m super excited to test them as vapour barrier this winter. Only thing I’m wondering is will they freeze overnight….
3- that coozie system for the small bottle is revolutionary!!! I use it to make coffe to go in the morning and I love it!!!
Legit question(I don’t have experience winter backpacking): how would the waterproof socks freeze overnight if they are under the insulative socks? Seems like they would just get filled with warm moisture you would have to dry out in the morning
@dylanpausic5026 super important to take the vapour barrier off at night and switch to dry socks or your feet turn to prunes and start to rot. Once you take wet socks off they freeze. There are different ways to deal with the wet socks, either putting them in a plastic bag and sleeping with them, trying to dry them out, or letting them freeze and thawing them in the morning before putting them on. Putting we socks on in the morning is never fun but it only feels unpleasant for a few seconds.
@ that makes sense. Thanks for the explanation! Love your channel and Justin’s for the winter camping exposure.. hard to find good content on it on TH-cam. 🙏
@marty ya curious how they will be in terms of moisture accumulation on the internal fabric.
@@KaneDoesOutdoors I do get wet feet because of my sweat. But it never gets this bad.... but certainly going to be interesting for the next day because that interior fabric will be wet
I checked the Amazon link for the socks. They're advertised as "breathable". I've used Dexshell socks which are also advertised as waterproof breathable. They did keep my feet dry, but the insides of my boots were still damp from the vapour that passed through the barrier. Bummer. Some kind of plastic or neoprene VBL seem to be the best bet.
Great video, mate. 👍
Correct, breathable is in the product description but I doubt it’s true, or significant enough to make a difference. Time will tell!
plastic bags 100% the way to go.
@@KaneDoesOutdoors think they'd work inside out then? breathable is usually one way no?
Alex hibbert has a couple of videos on VBLs. He found some trash bags that are quite durable and flexible, hippo sacks. I use 8L “freezer bags” on my feet. They are a bit thicker than the regular bread bags.
Intuition EVA boot liners are great inside the ski boots. This year I will try to use them inside my exped bivy boots in lieu of down booties.
I'm sure there are some bags out there that would do the trick. I forgot to mention another factor: the slippery feel in ski boots. You want a solid connect between your feet and boot on the downhill. I'm optimistic about these socks!
My understanding was that moldable ski boot liners are EVA. Mine seem like it but they still absorb some moisture and stiffen in the night.
@@KaneDoesOutdoors couldn't you have thin poly toe'd socks inside the liner and another thin poly sock outside to hold it in place?
@PHYSIZIST I’ve tried that.weird stuff happens when you walk/ski all day, plastic bags have a way of working their way down into my boots no matter what I do.. My preference is generally the lowest number of items which is why I’m so hopeful for these socks.
@@KaneDoesOutdoors fair points. The slide is real indeed
Going to try goretex wpb sock (bridgedale) in a non waterproof 200g insulated boot this year on day snowshoe trips. These socks work (I use them kayaking). MEC had them for cheap. Waterproof boots make my feet too damp. I use phone for nav so below -15c use Decathlon screen touch running gloves as liners, then a flip mit over. Hard to find a good flip mitt thats breathable though!
Nice, curious about how the wpb sock will work.
I am so glad I don't go out when it is -30.... you are a warrior
Ha... I don't know about that!
I use the waterproof socks when I canoe and have been very happy for wet entry. Last winter I used them on a four day, 25-35F trip. The worked well, kept the sweat inside, at night I would turn them inside out in my sleeping bag and they would semi dry. I think I liked VBL better though, because you can let the bag freeze and shake off the ice. Still have damp socks I suppose.
Definitely a few points to evaluate. You've raised my main concern, in that the inner material will get wet. That's the advantage of using a VBL directly against your skin - the sock stays dry. It's just frustrating when the VBL shifts and wiggles down your foot under a sock. We'll see which is better, or maybe which approach is less annoying.
@KaneDoesOutdoors right, my Sealskinz socks are basically 3 layers, inner merino, waterproof membrane and outer acrylic wool I think. So the inner still got damp, but it was comfortable to put on in the morning if I slept with it.
What about just using a rain jacket, rain pants, and some latex gloves + turkey/bread bags on your feet? That way you could hike in the VBLs as well but do you think it would work as well? And have you seen the GooseFeetGear Overbooties? They can layer over something like EE Torrid socks to create a liner+shell system.
Yes I've tried the rain jacket and pants approach. I use my shell as a VBL to protect my down coat when I stop in camp or on the trail. Just gets a little cumbersome in the sleeping bag, plus a thin VBL liner bag weighs less than most shell pants.
I’ve recently found it very hard to dry the days hiking clothes (shirt and waist band on pants) during the night at camp. I don’t ever bother with fires. I’ve tried hanging them in my tent. Putting them in a stuff sack in the bottom of my bag with a hot Nalgene over night. Nothing seems to really work and they’re still damp and cold in the morning.
Wear them to bed. You’ll wake up dry.
I always thought you got to be careful putting another quilt over a down bag as you can compress the down, lowering it's properties.
That's always been a concern of mine.
So you’re thinking you’ll wear the waterproof socks as your primary sock? Or overtop of a thinner one?
Primary. I’m pretty impressed with the fit. I never wear liner socks, just a good quality ski sock. My ski boots are molded so the fit is quite precise, no room for multiple layers.
🙏🏻