I totally agree with your points. The RC should be more proactive in banning these cards and only more consistent in their bannings. As a newer EDH and MTG player, I dislike and "feel bad" more when I see those old +100$ cards that are less accessible than manacrypt and J-lotus, even dockside.
In my opinion the comittee decided to cull the explosive starts, mana crypt on its own isnt a problem, but a mana crypt + signet + sol ring + signet + land is turn one is a problem. They didnt want to ban all of these, just remove some to regulate it and remove some of the culprits. and between deciding whether to ban mana crypt OR sol ring, mana crypt is definitely the better candidate.
I agree with the RC's argument for "geometrically reducing" fast starts. Having access to two cards that make fast mana is 100% more than just one. So that argument makes sense. My opinion, as stated in the video, is that Sol Ring and Mana Crypt are indistinguishable from one another apart from their mana cost, which the RC kind of agrees with based on their statement of how Mana Crypt often has no downside. My rank of the options for bans is this: Ban neither > ban both > ban Mana Crypt > ban Sol Ring This stems mostly from Mana Crypt not having a home besides vintage / high-powered cubes. Both formats (in paper) are highly inaccessible. It also stems from the recognition that Sol Ring is as equally problematic as Mana Crypt but seems to be given a pass due to its ubiquity. To say that Mana Crypt isn't as iconic as Sol Ring (not your point, just saying) is failing to recognize its history in the format and the elevated position that WotC has raised the card to, based on its printing as a chase piece.
@@blfngl The issue with banning sol ring, one of them anyway, is instantly making every single commander precon illegal out of the box. Especially when you're considering the players who are likely to buy precons and those who are likely to not be aware of the ban. Imagine buying an older precon to get into the format just to be told game 1 that the deck actually can't be played without researching and purchasing a replacement card for your deck that was made to be as easy to start with as possible. Sol ring absolutely is more iconic in commander and that is a reason to keep it around. Sol ring gets printed in every precon, in the commander collections, special editions for commander events, it is ubiquitous in commander in a way that a $200 mana crypt never could be. People think of sol ring when they think of commander and I think that can be reason to keep it around, it is in some ways the sol ring format and I think people want sol ring in it. As you stated, there is a large difference between having sol ring and mana crypt and just having one or the other, beyond drawing both at once, there is a level of consistency in having both. The mana cost aspect is also largely undervalued by the mana crypt defenders +2 vs +1 is very relevant early on, being able to put out a 4 drop instead of a 3 drop is significant as is the access to colored mana on turn 1. A mana crypt can put out a monocolored 3 drop on turn 1 or a 2 colored 4 drop on turn 2 whereas sol ring on turn 1 can pretty much only play a signet. I think banning sol ring is too largely unpopular and disrupts pre cons too much to make it justify not banning mana crypt over. In a world where sol ring was not reprinted as much and did not become so ubiquitous, ban both, but I think waiting to ban mana crypt until you can also ban sol ring is strange.
@@savingark1528 There's no research that needs to be done to replace Sol Ring, it can be replaced by a land. The only difference the deck will have is the impossibility of having a crazy fast start. If the player isn't aware the card is banned and nobody else at the table knows, then who cares? If someone does know, then they just rule zero the Sol Ring in for the session or until the player replaces it. We're going to disagree about how Sol Ring is more iconic than Mana Crypt. Just because it appears more doesn't mean it's more iconic. Mana Crypt lives in the mind as a legendary card to play and acquire for some players. Sol Ring is just a regular card. I know that zero is a lot less than one, and I agree, in worlds where the damage from Mana Crypt doesn't matter, Mana Crypt is more powerful than Sol Ring. My counterpoint to that is the three damage is overlooked by people staunchly defending Sol Ring. If Mana Crypt isn't dealt with and the game goes long, it will kill its owner. Sol Ring sits there forever.
@@blfnglin a world with sac outlets, targeted destruction, phasing and removal I would say the mana crypt damage does next to nothing. So it's still way stronger than Sol Ring. Some decks even benefit from taking damage. I honestly think it's wild that they dont reprint the mox cards for commander use since theyre slightly weaker than mana crypt
I agree with a lot of what you said, and I can see why you feel there is an amount of hypocrisy in the ring vs crypt conversation, but you really can't compare the two in power level. If you're talking about why sol ring should be banned, you should've acknowledged and explained the vast difference in power level between it and crypt. sol ring costs 1, mana crypt costs 0. I don't understand why people don't realize that makes the two cards COMPLETELY distinct from each other lmao. If you play a land and a crypt on turn 1, you have 1 colored and 2 colorless. If you play a land and a sol ring on turn 1, you just have 2 colorless. That is a HUGE difference, and the only difference that matters. You could achieve the same effect with dark ritual, petal, a mox, etc, but you either don't have a permanent that can continually provide value, or as much value per card. Having to have more cards in your hand in order to explode, exponentially decreases your chances of exploding due to the odds of having that hand. The odds of having a mana crypt and a land in your hand are actually pretty high if you decide to mulligan for it. Typically, what's the most I could do with 2 colorless on turn 1? Signet? Boots? What could you do with 1 colored and 2 colorless on turn 1? Rhystic study, cultivate/reach/roiling regrowth, propaganda. Could you imagine cracking a fetch land and that guy that put down a swamp and a crypt plays an opposition agent? Azusa/wayward sawtooth and then you could play another land, and then have 6 mana on turn 2. You could play boromir and then none of your opponents could crypt or play any other cheerios. Blood moon. A turn 1 as foretold would be crazy. Heralds horn, phyrexian altar, I could go on forever How else could you cast a turn 1 3 drop with only 2 PERMANENTS? Whether or not sol ring should be banned is a completely different conversation, the power level of mana crypt is far beyond sol ring when it comes to turn 1 plays. I think we can all agree that being like "well there's also this card which is similar but less powerful so we should ban it too" is a really dumb mindset to have when deciding what cards should be banned. Cards should be banned on a case by case basis. It's like if demonic tutor got banned and then people started complaining and saying diabolic tutor should be banned too. I understand why it feels like they're putting sol ring on a pedestal, but at the end of the day, they decided to draw a line in power level, and crypt, jeweled lotus, and dockside all cross that line, but sol ring does not.
An interesting game rules side of looking at the Sol/Crypt ban situation could be that Crypt enables the newer Eldrazi card type of designs that call for explicitly colorless mana like Crypt creates, where Ring makes 2 generic. Ring is ideologically an issue for fast starts yes but it now strategically can provide *less* in certain situations than Crypt could. Crypt can pay Emrakul's madness cost. Ring cannot. In the scheme of things probably plays no difference in the opinions others have but I think it's an interesting side point.
This is a rules misunderstanding, Sol Ring has the errata to produce {C}{C} now. Take a look at the newer printings of Sol Ring: cards.scryfall.io/large/front/8/2/82f1a8a3-7fdb-49a3-9649-b5c0b4755cd5.jpg?1726284526
The problem with the wording I have is the way they are just like Sol ring is a staple, so it stays. The translation is share holders said no way to some of these bans, Sol Ring is in every commander deck you cant take it. Then Wizards probably threatened the committee in some way. I watched a video last night about JLK resigning from the committee because he wasn't even asked his opinion on the ban. If they are not asking all members for their input that sounds weird.
Unfortunately one of the big problems with banning Sol Ring is its, like you said, in every commander precon. Having every product that is made for people to grab a deck and play this format out of the box not be able to do that is, at this point, fundamentally unacceptable from a gameplay standpoint that is worse than whatever bad gameplay it being legal does. They were stuck between a rock and a hard place with keeping it legal, if you you think LGSs were hit hard with these bans banning Sol Ring realistically could put stores out of business as selling a product that is illegal in the format it is for is a tough sell for most people and probably nukes the value of all that sealed product which is what most stores hold on to bc they're less risky than singles. Even if going forward they just replace it with a land that doesn't fix past inventory and it introduces a sense of fright that will reflect in them ordering less product from Wizards bc they just basically lost all the inventory they had in the back for that product line and they won't be the sucker who falls for it twice. Whatever solution your thinking of to fix that these products are illegal in commander will not stop the implosion of the commander precon as we know it being the best onboarding for the format and for existing players. Like it or not Sol Ring is too big to fail and recognizing that and mitigating effects like it to curb its worst edges isn't hypocritical its just realistic. If you thought this past week was insane Sol Ring being banned would have been cataclysmic (worse than having one cast on you).
I see the point you’re making about swapping sol ring for mana crypt in their arguments but also sol ring gets printed in every commander oriented set and is now extremely accessible whereas mana crypt you’ll have to dig into your wallet for. I could see how the frequent inclusion of sol ring compared to that of mana crypt is partly why they consider it more elemental to the format.
Something I should've mentioned in the vid but took out during editing is this: I don't play Crypt or Sol Ring in any of my decks save for one, a high-powered colorless deck. Sol Ring's ubiquity is a problem that contributes to fast mana starts and I wish that it wasn't put in (almost) every precon. That messaging from WotC is at odds with the messaging from the RC in terms of whether or not fast mana starts are accepted. By players seeing Sol Ring everywhere, they're given the impression that cards like it are okay.
@@absolutedoruiyaaa4736not being mentioned doesn't mean it wasn't a factor, believe it or not declaring that expensive cards are bad for the format won't make there job any easier, but even ignoring that, 1 mana is a serious downside for a turn 1 solring play while manacrypt is able to play a 3 drop of whatever color mana you put down turn one, and if your getting a 3drop turn 1 your probably not gonna have to worry about the worst case scenario for manacrypt where you lose 10 hp total over the course of a game, and ignoring all that? Consistency is important to something being a problem, turn 1 sol ring is strong, a manacrypt doubles your chances of that, and gives you a chance for turn 2 6 mana with 2 mana colors available, those aren't good things for game health, even if turn 1 sol ring is fine when you can't make it more likely
Here's the thing. Mana Crypt definitely DOES NOT share the same kind of unique identity with the commander format that Sol Ring does. Mana Crypt has always almost exclusively been tied to cEDH only, mostly due to its prohibitive cost on the secondary market, and lack of impactful reprints. This means that most commander players don't, and might not ever, own a copy of Mana Crypt. If you look at sol ting, however, it is pretty cheap due to constant reprints, and nearly every commander player owns a copy, if not, several copies. Sol Ring kind of defines commander. Mana Crypt does not.
I think the iconic stature of Mana Crypt is subjective. It was printed in EMA because of the rise in popularity with EDH, so to say that it isn't iconic in commander doesn't make sense to me. There was no other way to get it than to be a judge or have redeemed it from the book giveaway. I agree with you that it's tied to high-power pods, but it definitely doesn't only appear in cEDH. I also think it's had plenty of reprints at this point, albeit not enough to crash the price, which was never something WotC would do anyways. It's been printed seven times: Book promo, judge promo, EMA, Kaladesh Inventions, The List, 2XM (as a regular and box topper) and most recently with LCI special guests (as a number of printings). You can somewhat compare the printing of Mana Crypt to the printing of Tarmogoyf; after its initial printing as a rare, it was printed only as a mythic and maintained a high price point due to its necessity in modern. It only dropped in price after it was powercrept out of modern. But anyways, the RC doesn't take into account the price of cards when making decisions to ban, otherwise Gaea's Cradle and other "staples" would have action taken against them. If the majority of players didn't own Mana Crypt, why does the RC feel the need to remove it from the format? They're trying to reduce the number of fast starts, but if more people own Sol Ring, it makes more sense to me to take that card out of the format instead, or more preferably, take it out alongside Mana Crypt.
i have played commander across the country and mana crypt is not nearly as commmon as you make it out too be. also, that sol ring actually costs mana wich usually comes from your first land makes you incapable of a rystic turn one for example
I'm not sure if the second comment here is still replying to me, but I'm not crying. I don't buy sealed product. I'm expressing my disappointment for not being able to play an old card that doesn't have a home in any other format. I'm not arguing that Mana Crypt is common, I'm claiming it's iconic. It's an old card that has been sought after by players since the 90s. Also, if you're saying it's not that common, I don't feel like there was action that needed to be taken on it. Occasional fast starts are okay.
@@blfngl They stop being "occasional fast starts" and become "every game at least some acceleration" when we stop forgetting that anybody who played Mana Crypt was not *just* playing Mana Crypt. They were *also* playing Sol Ring. And in a lot of cases, also Jeweled Lotus and Arcane Signet. The chance of drawing a Sol Ring in your opening hand is approximately 7%. The chance of you drawing *at least one of* Sol Ring, Crypt, and JLo in your hand is significantly higher. It was obvious they were not banning every fast mana rock for multiple reasons. Sol Ring stayed because it was the most accessible to everyone, the least accelerating, and when there's only one of them the fast starts are actually occasional instead of "around an 80% chance one player gets it every game". Mana Crypt may be iconic, as Sol Ring is, but one of these is obviously way less powerful than the other and when there aren't *both* (or all three when including JLo) then it's actually okay. In fact, there are lots of situations where you might never even WANT a Sol Ring in a deck even with plenty of generic mana costs, compared to Mana Crypt which is effectively a second copy of Ancient Tomb. And no, the damage from Mana Crypt will almost never decide a game. You can see this from how easily the MDFCs that include mono-colored bolt-lands on the back fit into lists. Even with 20 life (that's 7 coinflips lost from Mana Crypt, by the way, assuming you haven't taken other sources of damage) you'd EASILY bolt-land yourself if it gave you enough mana to go off. A 3-mana lead on turn 1 that continues onwards into the rest of the game can easily carry you to an average victory around turn 5 or 6 with a pretty midrange deck, before you even have a chance to half-life yourself with Mana Crypt.
Well the 1 mana cost of sol ring vs 0 cost of mana crypt makes a huge diffrence tbh. if i draw a land + sol ring and maybe a signet on t1 is nice and it wll lead to a nice t2 but drawing a land and a mana crypt on oepning hand is a whole diffrent story, making it possible to play cards like rhystic study or a 3 cost creaure on t1. that's why it hurts me so much to lose access to my crypt :( so you can't really say sol ring = mana crypt. not to mention, you can also draw sol ring + mana crypt on t1 and tat provides yu with a 4 mana on opening hand, which allows you to play shit like smothering tithe t1.,
There is simply too much nuance around these bans to come to a simple unanimous decision. No matter what side you're on there is undoubtedly an argument for the opposing view that genuinely appeals to you. Maybe you think these cards should be banned because they simply wont be reprinted and so are completely unattainable for a large majority of players. Maybe you think these cards shouldn't be banned because they're not nearly common enough to hinder games on a large scale. Either way the RC is correct. Simply talk to the players in your pod. I still play channel in one of my decks. It's a mono green bear tribal. My deck just can't abuse channel the same way many other decks can. With this information, my pod doesn't care that I'm playing channel. Would you care? If it wasn't banned would my deck alone be grounds to ban the card? Either way I'm keeping it, I don't have to play the same way as you like to. Maybe a good solution to this could be a ban system more similar to Canadian highlander. You can play some banned cards but you have a limit to how many. Of course this wouldn't please everyone and still conflicts with the two views I mentioned previously. Try experimenting more with the game, try to come up with new formats. Me and my fiance have been playing our own homebrew format for months now and its a blast. Spend your money wisely and keep your finger on the pulse.
I think a points system would be incredibly healthy for the game. There doesn't even need to be a cap on the number of points allowed in your deck, just that certain cards have point values. Then, you can say you're rolling up with a seven (in points), and an opponent might present an eight. Or someone has a fifteen and you decided to play a twelve.
@@blfngl That's actually such a good point, putting an actual value to "my deck is about a 7" The Magic community means a lot to me to thanks for responding
The big problem is really that Commander is MTGs permier non-rotating format. None of the other ones have any kind of community or support. You can say modern, but if you try to have a modern night at your house, you end up with 2 dudes who smell funny and won't leave. Since commander is pretty much the only game in town, you end up with too big of a tent with too many people to please. The format needs to split. I'm not sure why this is such a crazy idea. We have so many other formats, what is one more? Is it the name? Everybody want to have the big marque name? Why is a split such a problem?
This is a tough question that I don't have an answer to. Because Commander is the premiere "non-rotating" format (every format rotates nowadays thanks to WotC), I wish they'd lean into that more and take more cards off of the banlist. Rule zero doesn't work very well according to some, but they're working on "tools" that will help with that conversation. It makes more sense, to me, to wait for these tools to arrive and then make changes if the format remains unhealthy. Not that I think Commander is unhealthy. The people in charge clearly do, though. Commander is an inherently imbalanced format and the only way to truly enjoy yourself is to either get lucky with the rando pod or have a dedicated group of friends to play with. Even if the format is split into those who want to play hyper-competitive decks and those who want to play casually, you'll still have an issue with people wanting to push the casual end to its limit. Players are also just bad at judging how strong their decks are. It's an impossible task.
If you split the format, the popular side of the split will still have the same problems, and the unpopular side will just become Singleton Vintage (tiny community, hard to find games). Half the reason Commander is popular is because it is popular. The other half is because you can play all your old cards with very few exceptions. Even a bad card isn't likely to ruin your game, because it's multiplayer so it's just one card out of 400. I can't come up with any way to split the format that doesn't end up making one dead format, and one popular compromise.
Honestly? There should be 2 Commander formats. One with Crypt and Ring, one without either. Except, that would fracture the community, and one of the two would probably effectively die. I can see an argument for keeping "the sol ring format"s identity clean by removing mana crypt from it, similar to how Ponder and Brainstorm are Restricted and Legal in vintage & legacy, but the Singleton nature of the format meeting with the multiplayer nature of the format makes that argument weak. (You're adding 1 copy per deck, or 4 copies to a table.) I don't play at tables that Mana Crypt gets played at, and I choose to never run a Sol Ring personally. I don't like what they do to decks at the tables I play at. If I wanted to play an optimized and accelerated list, I'd play Canlander.
Your point about explosive starts without sol ring feels somewhat disingenuous. Yes the cards you listed can have a similar effect and they do take more setup which does make them more balanced but 99% of decks people are playing will not have the ability to use these cards either for price or utility (mox diamond and lotus petal are worse late game draws than a sol ring). The average player who has an explosive start has that start due to sol ring. They do not have mox diamond and their deck doesn't want lotus petal, removing sol ring would be removing these explosive starts for most players
That's not my intention, but I understand your point. The idea that fast mana is worse later in the game is exactly one of the reasons why I think Sol Ring should go. There should be more of a risk to be playing the cards that let you start faster out of the gate. It's one of the reasons why Dark Ritual is able to produce BBB for being only B. The advantage it gives early is balanced out by its lesser efficacy later. I'm pro-proxy and encourage others to proxy entire decks. Magic cards are expensive. One of my friends has an entirely proxied Inferno of the Star Mounts deck, which features all of the fast mana available to it. If someone wants to play Mox Diamond, because it fits perfectly into their list, but can't afford it, I recommend for them to proxy it. Price isn't a reason as to why cards are being banned, as I mentioned in the video, so the perspective that I have when evaluating the bans are as if a given player has access to any cards they'd like. The bans are explicitly about reducing overall power, and, like I mentioned, I'm glad the RC took action on Mana Crypt. However, I wish that they took action on an equally if not more problematic card, due to its ubiquity. Protecting Sol Ring because it has late game utility doesn't seem like a strong argument to me, as you're confirming that not only is the card insane on the first turn, but still throughout the rest of the game.
@@blfngl I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying. Sol ring is too strong and does violate the card design tradeoff of similar ritual effects. My point is that if the rc wants these explosive starts, cards like mox diamond or lotus petal do not provide what sol ring does. The games where you draw sol ring vs the games where you do not draw it play very differently and I can see the rational in wanting those games but wanting less of them. By banning only mana crypt and not sol ring, you still allow for those games but limit the top end of drawing both and limit the consistency of drawing one. I personally would prefer if both were banned but I do not think the position of banning only one is remotely untenable, especially when banning sol ring would mean invalidating every single precon ever made and 85% of commander decks (per edhrec)
@@savingark1528banning cards in precons does not invalidate the precon, if it's played entirely as is. It's standard/expected practice to consider the precon (if it matches the published list for that deck/ product 1:1) to be legal even if a card in it is banned. But I'm totally in agreement with you that banning (or restricting in non-singleton formats) one version of a similar effect but not another is a valid position to take. I'd also rather play in a format with *no* fast mana, but format identity can be more nuanced than "mana positive rocks are all banned" etc. the easy comparison is Ponder and Brainstorm in Legacy and Vintage.
I feel like this is a strawman argument, you are arguing why wasn't sol ring also banned, instead of why was Mana crypt banned. Also the difference of that 1 in the top right corner is the difference between 4 mana turn two and 5 mana turn two as having the cost means you cannot play an additional signet. The power of a Net 2 mana turn 1 is crazy, even without considering future turns, you can now turn one rhystic study, with just a land and crypt. Any 1 pip 2 generic spell is now cashable turn 1. Smugglers share? That extra turn helps the table deal with such problematic cards. It just enabled too much. The only reason Sol Ring is in every deck and see such frequent use instead of mana crypt is the cost of crypt there is no other reason why it shouldn't be added into 99% of decks.
I don't think that's a strawman, I'm not advocating for Mana Crypt's unbanning or that it shouldn't have been banned in the first place. It's obviously a powerful card and if we're talking from a pure gameplay standpoint, taking it out reduces the potential disparity generated by explosive starts. I'm stating that there's hypocrisy in allowing Sol Ring a pass when it's as equally problematic as Mana Crypt. I would have preferred for both to be removed. Sol Ring is much more common than Mana Crypt and contributes to the explosiveness 10000% more than Crypt does. I agree that it should be in basically every deck if you're trying to play optimally. That argument also applies to Sol Ring. I also agree that coming down for free is infinitely better than costing one. The ban seems to stem from the RC's concern for pubstomping, but that's a people problem. Not a card problem. Pubstompers will always nefariously represent their decks during a rule zero conversation. The last time I played EDH, I was responding to a LFG thread for my LGS. Guy said we were going to play casual. Rolls up with Ojer Axonil and Syr Konrad. Didn't play any fast mana, but his decks were way above what he was marketing as his power level. I convinced the table to focus him by pointing out the disparity in our decks and we moved on. The experience was so bad for me that I ended up taking an extended break from playing, and I'm someone that enjoys playing high-powered games. But not when I'm not playing a deck that can match that level. Price isn't a factor taken into account when banning cards, according to the RC. Otherwise plenty of cards from the format would be removed.
There is literally no cost to Mana Crypt (in Game) AND there is a reasonable argument for it being in every single commander deck, this makes it a toxic card. Sol Ring, Lotus Petal, etc. are all also staples, but have actual costs that is the problem Crypt has, it doesn't have a downside. the 50% chance of losing 3 health both slows the game down and is kind of irrelevant for most decks. Its removal creates more decision making when building a deck, which I believe is good for the game.
It would be toxic if it was actually harming the format. It always comes down to rule 0. If your pod doesn't like you running mana crypt, you play your decks without it, or adjust when you meet next time. Such a rare and expensive card too, the only pods that saw mana crypt were then ones that wanted to
Sol Ring costs one mana, which any reasonable deck can produce starting on turn one. Sol Ring's lack of a color identity or any meaningful drawback means that "there is a reasonable argument for it being in every single commander deck, [which] makes it a toxic card,". Sol Ring has zero downside apart from maybe being weaker late game after you've expended all of your resources, whereas Mana Crypt literally does have the downside of it occasionally dealing three damage to you. The RC is correct that oftentimes Mana Crypt functions as if it doesn't have any other text besides its mana ability. But it does have an actual drawback in its text box. Sol Ring stifles creativity in deckbuilding as much as Mana Crypt, if not more due to its ubiquity. Every player and their mother has a Sol Ring.
@@paranoidhawklet A lot of players have been asking themselves that over the years lol. If you ask the Rules Committee, it was to offer a rough guideline on what they felt wouldn't be good for the format (sway the stars and worldfire-type effects, but also specific cards like Channel). Commander was never supposed to be a tightly monitored format, it was all casual after all! But for the players, the easiest thing has always been to just use that list as THE banlist. For 99.9% of players (and especially new players), ignoring the "but it always comes down to rule 0"-part, makes for a more streamlined and easier experience. My own playgroup has always respected the banlist, but after this whole spectacle, we're planning on just unbanning everything (except power9, channel and it's friends), cause that's the experience we want, and we're not even cedh
Sol ring should've been banned as well. They even admitted to it, but whatever followed in their excuses can be diluted to: ''We didn't have the guts to do it''. Cedh should just accept its a different format and use its own banlist, instead of copying an openly ''casual'' format. The value of these cards would then be somewhat retained since they'd still have a home.
If cEDH is to become it's own format, it would need to change its name (among a lot of other things). One problem with that is how there will always be players trying to push the limits of any given format, regardless of whether it's marketed as casual or competitive. A lot of cEDH players view themselves as EDH players that have a rule-zero conversation ensuring anything goes.
How many players realistically have managed crypt? Maybe ~10% of all commander players on the high end? 100% of players have sol ring and the damage to the format would be way bigger than mana crypt. I also dont think crypt shouldve been banned, but sol ring is just a no ban.
Cedh players aren't "copying" a format. Within every single format there are players that will want to do the most optimal thing. They are just as much part of commander as you and me
@@blfngl it entirely does, literally nobody is debating that. The point the RC is trying to make is that they want less in general. The issue isnt having one of these in your deck, its having all 3 and more which significantly increases the chance of a very accelerated start.
As you correctly point out they should have also banned Sol Ring, but ill take what i can get.
These bans feels a lot like old entrenched players saying: You new guys can't have cool new toys to play with, but we keep our cool old toys.
I totally agree with your points. The RC should be more proactive in banning these cards and only more consistent in their bannings. As a newer EDH and MTG player, I dislike and "feel bad" more when I see those old +100$ cards that are less accessible than manacrypt and J-lotus, even dockside.
Should be "$100+"
Not sure how you got that entirely backwards
In my opinion the comittee decided to cull the explosive starts, mana crypt on its own isnt a problem, but a mana crypt + signet + sol ring + signet + land is turn one is a problem. They didnt want to ban all of these, just remove some to regulate it and remove some of the culprits. and between deciding whether to ban mana crypt OR sol ring, mana crypt is definitely the better candidate.
I agree with the RC's argument for "geometrically reducing" fast starts. Having access to two cards that make fast mana is 100% more than just one. So that argument makes sense. My opinion, as stated in the video, is that Sol Ring and Mana Crypt are indistinguishable from one another apart from their mana cost, which the RC kind of agrees with based on their statement of how Mana Crypt often has no downside. My rank of the options for bans is this:
Ban neither > ban both > ban Mana Crypt > ban Sol Ring
This stems mostly from Mana Crypt not having a home besides vintage / high-powered cubes. Both formats (in paper) are highly inaccessible. It also stems from the recognition that Sol Ring is as equally problematic as Mana Crypt but seems to be given a pass due to its ubiquity. To say that Mana Crypt isn't as iconic as Sol Ring (not your point, just saying) is failing to recognize its history in the format and the elevated position that WotC has raised the card to, based on its printing as a chase piece.
@@blfngl The issue with banning sol ring, one of them anyway, is instantly making every single commander precon illegal out of the box. Especially when you're considering the players who are likely to buy precons and those who are likely to not be aware of the ban. Imagine buying an older precon to get into the format just to be told game 1 that the deck actually can't be played without researching and purchasing a replacement card for your deck that was made to be as easy to start with as possible. Sol ring absolutely is more iconic in commander and that is a reason to keep it around. Sol ring gets printed in every precon, in the commander collections, special editions for commander events, it is ubiquitous in commander in a way that a $200 mana crypt never could be. People think of sol ring when they think of commander and I think that can be reason to keep it around, it is in some ways the sol ring format and I think people want sol ring in it. As you stated, there is a large difference between having sol ring and mana crypt and just having one or the other, beyond drawing both at once, there is a level of consistency in having both. The mana cost aspect is also largely undervalued by the mana crypt defenders +2 vs +1 is very relevant early on, being able to put out a 4 drop instead of a 3 drop is significant as is the access to colored mana on turn 1. A mana crypt can put out a monocolored 3 drop on turn 1 or a 2 colored 4 drop on turn 2 whereas sol ring on turn 1 can pretty much only play a signet. I think banning sol ring is too largely unpopular and disrupts pre cons too much to make it justify not banning mana crypt over. In a world where sol ring was not reprinted as much and did not become so ubiquitous, ban both, but I think waiting to ban mana crypt until you can also ban sol ring is strange.
@@savingark1528 There's no research that needs to be done to replace Sol Ring, it can be replaced by a land. The only difference the deck will have is the impossibility of having a crazy fast start. If the player isn't aware the card is banned and nobody else at the table knows, then who cares? If someone does know, then they just rule zero the Sol Ring in for the session or until the player replaces it.
We're going to disagree about how Sol Ring is more iconic than Mana Crypt. Just because it appears more doesn't mean it's more iconic. Mana Crypt lives in the mind as a legendary card to play and acquire for some players. Sol Ring is just a regular card.
I know that zero is a lot less than one, and I agree, in worlds where the damage from Mana Crypt doesn't matter, Mana Crypt is more powerful than Sol Ring. My counterpoint to that is the three damage is overlooked by people staunchly defending Sol Ring. If Mana Crypt isn't dealt with and the game goes long, it will kill its owner. Sol Ring sits there forever.
@@savingark1528 100% this
@@blfnglin a world with sac outlets, targeted destruction, phasing and removal I would say the mana crypt damage does next to nothing. So it's still way stronger than Sol Ring. Some decks even benefit from taking damage. I honestly think it's wild that they dont reprint the mox cards for commander use since theyre slightly weaker than mana crypt
I agree with a lot of what you said, and I can see why you feel there is an amount of hypocrisy in the ring vs crypt conversation, but you really can't compare the two in power level. If you're talking about why sol ring should be banned, you should've acknowledged and explained the vast difference in power level between it and crypt.
sol ring costs 1, mana crypt costs 0. I don't understand why people don't realize that makes the two cards COMPLETELY distinct from each other lmao. If you play a land and a crypt on turn 1, you have 1 colored and 2 colorless. If you play a land and a sol ring on turn 1, you just have 2 colorless. That is a HUGE difference, and the only difference that matters. You could achieve the same effect with dark ritual, petal, a mox, etc, but you either don't have a permanent that can continually provide value, or as much value per card. Having to have more cards in your hand in order to explode, exponentially decreases your chances of exploding due to the odds of having that hand. The odds of having a mana crypt and a land in your hand are actually pretty high if you decide to mulligan for it.
Typically, what's the most I could do with 2 colorless on turn 1? Signet? Boots?
What could you do with 1 colored and 2 colorless on turn 1?
Rhystic study, cultivate/reach/roiling regrowth, propaganda. Could you imagine cracking a fetch land and that guy that put down a swamp and a crypt plays an opposition agent? Azusa/wayward sawtooth and then you could play another land, and then have 6 mana on turn 2. You could play boromir and then none of your opponents could crypt or play any other cheerios. Blood moon. A turn 1 as foretold would be crazy. Heralds horn, phyrexian altar, I could go on forever
How else could you cast a turn 1 3 drop with only 2 PERMANENTS?
Whether or not sol ring should be banned is a completely different conversation, the power level of mana crypt is far beyond sol ring when it comes to turn 1 plays. I think we can all agree that being like "well there's also this card which is similar but less powerful so we should ban it too" is a really dumb mindset to have when deciding what cards should be banned. Cards should be banned on a case by case basis. It's like if demonic tutor got banned and then people started complaining and saying diabolic tutor should be banned too. I understand why it feels like they're putting sol ring on a pedestal, but at the end of the day, they decided to draw a line in power level, and crypt, jeweled lotus, and dockside all cross that line, but sol ring does not.
An interesting game rules side of looking at the Sol/Crypt ban situation could be that Crypt enables the newer Eldrazi card type of designs that call for explicitly colorless mana like Crypt creates, where Ring makes 2 generic. Ring is ideologically an issue for fast starts yes but it now strategically can provide *less* in certain situations than Crypt could. Crypt can pay Emrakul's madness cost. Ring cannot.
In the scheme of things probably plays no difference in the opinions others have but I think it's an interesting side point.
This is a rules misunderstanding, Sol Ring has the errata to produce {C}{C} now. Take a look at the newer printings of Sol Ring:
cards.scryfall.io/large/front/8/2/82f1a8a3-7fdb-49a3-9649-b5c0b4755cd5.jpg?1726284526
Sol Ring creates colorless mana, and can pay for colorless-specific costs.
The problem with the wording I have is the way they are just like Sol ring is a staple, so it stays. The translation is share holders said no way to some of these bans, Sol Ring is in every commander deck you cant take it. Then Wizards probably threatened the committee in some way. I watched a video last night about JLK resigning from the committee because he wasn't even asked his opinion on the ban. If they are not asking all members for their input that sounds weird.
Unfortunately one of the big problems with banning Sol Ring is its, like you said, in every commander precon. Having every product that is made for people to grab a deck and play this format out of the box not be able to do that is, at this point, fundamentally unacceptable from a gameplay standpoint that is worse than whatever bad gameplay it being legal does. They were stuck between a rock and a hard place with keeping it legal, if you you think LGSs were hit hard with these bans banning Sol Ring realistically could put stores out of business as selling a product that is illegal in the format it is for is a tough sell for most people and probably nukes the value of all that sealed product which is what most stores hold on to bc they're less risky than singles. Even if going forward they just replace it with a land that doesn't fix past inventory and it introduces a sense of fright that will reflect in them ordering less product from Wizards bc they just basically lost all the inventory they had in the back for that product line and they won't be the sucker who falls for it twice. Whatever solution your thinking of to fix that these products are illegal in commander will not stop the implosion of the commander precon as we know it being the best onboarding for the format and for existing players. Like it or not Sol Ring is too big to fail and recognizing that and mitigating effects like it to curb its worst edges isn't hypocritical its just realistic. If you thought this past week was insane Sol Ring being banned would have been cataclysmic (worse than having one cast on you).
Soooooo...... the problem with mana crypt is that modern magic game balance is shit and they powercreeped too hard?
I see the point you’re making about swapping sol ring for mana crypt in their arguments but also sol ring gets printed in every commander oriented set and is now extremely accessible whereas mana crypt you’ll have to dig into your wallet for. I could see how the frequent inclusion of sol ring compared to that of mana crypt is partly why they consider it more elemental to the format.
Inaccessibility isn't in the RC statement so that holds no water.
By this logic, Sol Ring should be banned. Period.
Something I should've mentioned in the vid but took out during editing is this: I don't play Crypt or Sol Ring in any of my decks save for one, a high-powered colorless deck. Sol Ring's ubiquity is a problem that contributes to fast mana starts and I wish that it wasn't put in (almost) every precon. That messaging from WotC is at odds with the messaging from the RC in terms of whether or not fast mana starts are accepted. By players seeing Sol Ring everywhere, they're given the impression that cards like it are okay.
@@absolutedoruiyaaa4736they literally said that, but they wont because it would be terrible to ban every precon printed
@@absolutedoruiyaaa4736not being mentioned doesn't mean it wasn't a factor, believe it or not declaring that expensive cards are bad for the format won't make there job any easier, but even ignoring that, 1 mana is a serious downside for a turn 1 solring play while manacrypt is able to play a 3 drop of whatever color mana you put down turn one, and if your getting a 3drop turn 1 your probably not gonna have to worry about the worst case scenario for manacrypt where you lose 10 hp total over the course of a game, and ignoring all that? Consistency is important to something being a problem, turn 1 sol ring is strong, a manacrypt doubles your chances of that, and gives you a chance for turn 2 6 mana with 2 mana colors available, those aren't good things for game health, even if turn 1 sol ring is fine when you can't make it more likely
Thank god my cards suck, and aren't being discussed like this.
Here's the thing. Mana Crypt definitely DOES NOT share the same kind of unique identity with the commander format that Sol Ring does. Mana Crypt has always almost exclusively been tied to cEDH only, mostly due to its prohibitive cost on the secondary market, and lack of impactful reprints. This means that most commander players don't, and might not ever, own a copy of Mana Crypt. If you look at sol ting, however, it is pretty cheap due to constant reprints, and nearly every commander player owns a copy, if not, several copies. Sol Ring kind of defines commander. Mana Crypt does not.
I think the iconic stature of Mana Crypt is subjective. It was printed in EMA because of the rise in popularity with EDH, so to say that it isn't iconic in commander doesn't make sense to me. There was no other way to get it than to be a judge or have redeemed it from the book giveaway. I agree with you that it's tied to high-power pods, but it definitely doesn't only appear in cEDH. I also think it's had plenty of reprints at this point, albeit not enough to crash the price, which was never something WotC would do anyways.
It's been printed seven times:
Book promo, judge promo, EMA, Kaladesh Inventions, The List, 2XM (as a regular and box topper) and most recently with LCI special guests (as a number of printings).
You can somewhat compare the printing of Mana Crypt to the printing of Tarmogoyf; after its initial printing as a rare, it was printed only as a mythic and maintained a high price point due to its necessity in modern. It only dropped in price after it was powercrept out of modern. But anyways, the RC doesn't take into account the price of cards when making decisions to ban, otherwise Gaea's Cradle and other "staples" would have action taken against them.
If the majority of players didn't own Mana Crypt, why does the RC feel the need to remove it from the format? They're trying to reduce the number of fast starts, but if more people own Sol Ring, it makes more sense to me to take that card out of the format instead, or more preferably, take it out alongside Mana Crypt.
@@blfngl "I think the iconic stature of Mana Crypt is subjective" no it isn't.
i have played commander across the country and mana crypt is not nearly as commmon as you make it out too be.
also, that sol ring actually costs mana wich usually comes from your first land makes you incapable of a rystic turn one for example
cry harder, your ixalan opening spree was always a liability
I'm not sure if the second comment here is still replying to me, but I'm not crying. I don't buy sealed product. I'm expressing my disappointment for not being able to play an old card that doesn't have a home in any other format.
I'm not arguing that Mana Crypt is common, I'm claiming it's iconic. It's an old card that has been sought after by players since the 90s. Also, if you're saying it's not that common, I don't feel like there was action that needed to be taken on it. Occasional fast starts are okay.
@@blfngl fair
@@blfngl They stop being "occasional fast starts" and become "every game at least some acceleration" when we stop forgetting that anybody who played Mana Crypt was not *just* playing Mana Crypt. They were *also* playing Sol Ring. And in a lot of cases, also Jeweled Lotus and Arcane Signet.
The chance of drawing a Sol Ring in your opening hand is approximately 7%. The chance of you drawing *at least one of* Sol Ring, Crypt, and JLo in your hand is significantly higher. It was obvious they were not banning every fast mana rock for multiple reasons. Sol Ring stayed because it was the most accessible to everyone, the least accelerating, and when there's only one of them the fast starts are actually occasional instead of "around an 80% chance one player gets it every game".
Mana Crypt may be iconic, as Sol Ring is, but one of these is obviously way less powerful than the other and when there aren't *both* (or all three when including JLo) then it's actually okay. In fact, there are lots of situations where you might never even WANT a Sol Ring in a deck even with plenty of generic mana costs, compared to Mana Crypt which is effectively a second copy of Ancient Tomb.
And no, the damage from Mana Crypt will almost never decide a game. You can see this from how easily the MDFCs that include mono-colored bolt-lands on the back fit into lists. Even with 20 life (that's 7 coinflips lost from Mana Crypt, by the way, assuming you haven't taken other sources of damage) you'd EASILY bolt-land yourself if it gave you enough mana to go off. A 3-mana lead on turn 1 that continues onwards into the rest of the game can easily carry you to an average victory around turn 5 or 6 with a pretty midrange deck, before you even have a chance to half-life yourself with Mana Crypt.
If you ban Sol Ring, then every precon printed so far is not legal in Commander right out of the box.
Well the 1 mana cost of sol ring vs 0 cost of mana crypt makes a huge diffrence tbh. if i draw a land + sol ring and maybe a signet on t1 is nice and it wll lead to a nice t2 but drawing a land and a mana crypt on oepning hand is a whole diffrent story, making it possible to play cards like rhystic study or a 3 cost creaure on t1. that's why it hurts me so much to lose access to my crypt :( so you can't really say sol ring = mana crypt. not to mention, you can also draw sol ring + mana crypt on t1 and tat provides yu with a 4 mana on opening hand, which allows you to play shit like smothering tithe t1.,
There is simply too much nuance around these bans to come to a simple unanimous decision. No matter what side you're on there is undoubtedly an argument for the opposing view that genuinely appeals to you.
Maybe you think these cards should be banned because they simply wont be reprinted and so are completely unattainable for a large majority of players.
Maybe you think these cards shouldn't be banned because they're not nearly common enough to hinder games on a large scale.
Either way the RC is correct. Simply talk to the players in your pod.
I still play channel in one of my decks. It's a mono green bear tribal. My deck just can't abuse channel the same way many other decks can. With this information, my pod doesn't care that I'm playing channel. Would you care? If it wasn't banned would my deck alone be grounds to ban the card? Either way I'm keeping it, I don't have to play the same way as you like to.
Maybe a good solution to this could be a ban system more similar to Canadian highlander. You can play some banned cards but you have a limit to how many. Of course this wouldn't please everyone and still conflicts with the two views I mentioned previously.
Try experimenting more with the game, try to come up with new formats. Me and my fiance have been playing our own homebrew format for months now and its a blast.
Spend your money wisely and keep your finger on the pulse.
I think a points system would be incredibly healthy for the game. There doesn't even need to be a cap on the number of points allowed in your deck, just that certain cards have point values. Then, you can say you're rolling up with a seven (in points), and an opponent might present an eight. Or someone has a fifteen and you decided to play a twelve.
@@blfngl That's actually such a good point, putting an actual value to "my deck is about a 7"
The Magic community means a lot to me to thanks for responding
Of course, likewise. It's one of the reasons I felt compelled to put my thoughts into the void! We all care about the game and the community.
The big problem is really that Commander is MTGs permier non-rotating format. None of the other ones have any kind of community or support. You can say modern, but if you try to have a modern night at your house, you end up with 2 dudes who smell funny and won't leave. Since commander is pretty much the only game in town, you end up with too big of a tent with too many people to please. The format needs to split. I'm not sure why this is such a crazy idea. We have so many other formats, what is one more? Is it the name? Everybody want to have the big marque name? Why is a split such a problem?
This is a tough question that I don't have an answer to. Because Commander is the premiere "non-rotating" format (every format rotates nowadays thanks to WotC), I wish they'd lean into that more and take more cards off of the banlist. Rule zero doesn't work very well according to some, but they're working on "tools" that will help with that conversation. It makes more sense, to me, to wait for these tools to arrive and then make changes if the format remains unhealthy. Not that I think Commander is unhealthy. The people in charge clearly do, though. Commander is an inherently imbalanced format and the only way to truly enjoy yourself is to either get lucky with the rando pod or have a dedicated group of friends to play with.
Even if the format is split into those who want to play hyper-competitive decks and those who want to play casually, you'll still have an issue with people wanting to push the casual end to its limit. Players are also just bad at judging how strong their decks are. It's an impossible task.
If you split the format, the popular side of the split will still have the same problems, and the unpopular side will just become Singleton Vintage (tiny community, hard to find games).
Half the reason Commander is popular is because it is popular. The other half is because you can play all your old cards with very few exceptions. Even a bad card isn't likely to ruin your game, because it's multiplayer so it's just one card out of 400.
I can't come up with any way to split the format that doesn't end up making one dead format, and one popular compromise.
Honestly? There should be 2 Commander formats. One with Crypt and Ring, one without either. Except, that would fracture the community, and one of the two would probably effectively die.
I can see an argument for keeping "the sol ring format"s identity clean by removing mana crypt from it, similar to how Ponder and Brainstorm are Restricted and Legal in vintage & legacy, but the Singleton nature of the format meeting with the multiplayer nature of the format makes that argument weak. (You're adding 1 copy per deck, or 4 copies to a table.)
I don't play at tables that Mana Crypt gets played at, and I choose to never run a Sol Ring personally. I don't like what they do to decks at the tables I play at. If I wanted to play an optimized and accelerated list, I'd play Canlander.
Your point about explosive starts without sol ring feels somewhat disingenuous. Yes the cards you listed can have a similar effect and they do take more setup which does make them more balanced but 99% of decks people are playing will not have the ability to use these cards either for price or utility (mox diamond and lotus petal are worse late game draws than a sol ring). The average player who has an explosive start has that start due to sol ring. They do not have mox diamond and their deck doesn't want lotus petal, removing sol ring would be removing these explosive starts for most players
That's not my intention, but I understand your point. The idea that fast mana is worse later in the game is exactly one of the reasons why I think Sol Ring should go. There should be more of a risk to be playing the cards that let you start faster out of the gate. It's one of the reasons why Dark Ritual is able to produce BBB for being only B. The advantage it gives early is balanced out by its lesser efficacy later.
I'm pro-proxy and encourage others to proxy entire decks. Magic cards are expensive. One of my friends has an entirely proxied Inferno of the Star Mounts deck, which features all of the fast mana available to it. If someone wants to play Mox Diamond, because it fits perfectly into their list, but can't afford it, I recommend for them to proxy it. Price isn't a reason as to why cards are being banned, as I mentioned in the video, so the perspective that I have when evaluating the bans are as if a given player has access to any cards they'd like. The bans are explicitly about reducing overall power, and, like I mentioned, I'm glad the RC took action on Mana Crypt. However, I wish that they took action on an equally if not more problematic card, due to its ubiquity.
Protecting Sol Ring because it has late game utility doesn't seem like a strong argument to me, as you're confirming that not only is the card insane on the first turn, but still throughout the rest of the game.
@@blfngl I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying. Sol ring is too strong and does violate the card design tradeoff of similar ritual effects. My point is that if the rc wants these explosive starts, cards like mox diamond or lotus petal do not provide what sol ring does. The games where you draw sol ring vs the games where you do not draw it play very differently and I can see the rational in wanting those games but wanting less of them. By banning only mana crypt and not sol ring, you still allow for those games but limit the top end of drawing both and limit the consistency of drawing one. I personally would prefer if both were banned but I do not think the position of banning only one is remotely untenable, especially when banning sol ring would mean invalidating every single precon ever made and 85% of commander decks (per edhrec)
@@savingark1528banning cards in precons does not invalidate the precon, if it's played entirely as is. It's standard/expected practice to consider the precon (if it matches the published list for that deck/ product 1:1) to be legal even if a card in it is banned.
But I'm totally in agreement with you that banning (or restricting in non-singleton formats) one version of a similar effect but not another is a valid position to take. I'd also rather play in a format with *no* fast mana, but format identity can be more nuanced than "mana positive rocks are all banned" etc. the easy comparison is Ponder and Brainstorm in Legacy and Vintage.
I feel like this is a strawman argument, you are arguing why wasn't sol ring also banned, instead of why was Mana crypt banned.
Also the difference of that 1 in the top right corner is the difference between 4 mana turn two and 5 mana turn two as having the cost means you cannot play an additional signet.
The power of a Net 2 mana turn 1 is crazy, even without considering future turns, you can now turn one rhystic study, with just a land and crypt. Any 1 pip 2 generic spell is now cashable turn 1. Smugglers share?
That extra turn helps the table deal with such problematic cards. It just enabled too much.
The only reason Sol Ring is in every deck and see such frequent use instead of mana crypt is the cost of crypt there is no other reason why it shouldn't be added into 99% of decks.
I don't think that's a strawman, I'm not advocating for Mana Crypt's unbanning or that it shouldn't have been banned in the first place. It's obviously a powerful card and if we're talking from a pure gameplay standpoint, taking it out reduces the potential disparity generated by explosive starts. I'm stating that there's hypocrisy in allowing Sol Ring a pass when it's as equally problematic as Mana Crypt. I would have preferred for both to be removed. Sol Ring is much more common than Mana Crypt and contributes to the explosiveness 10000% more than Crypt does.
I agree that it should be in basically every deck if you're trying to play optimally. That argument also applies to Sol Ring. I also agree that coming down for free is infinitely better than costing one.
The ban seems to stem from the RC's concern for pubstomping, but that's a people problem. Not a card problem. Pubstompers will always nefariously represent their decks during a rule zero conversation. The last time I played EDH, I was responding to a LFG thread for my LGS. Guy said we were going to play casual. Rolls up with Ojer Axonil and Syr Konrad. Didn't play any fast mana, but his decks were way above what he was marketing as his power level. I convinced the table to focus him by pointing out the disparity in our decks and we moved on. The experience was so bad for me that I ended up taking an extended break from playing, and I'm someone that enjoys playing high-powered games. But not when I'm not playing a deck that can match that level.
Price isn't a factor taken into account when banning cards, according to the RC. Otherwise plenty of cards from the format would be removed.
There is literally no cost to Mana Crypt (in Game) AND there is a reasonable argument for it being in every single commander deck, this makes it a toxic card. Sol Ring, Lotus Petal, etc. are all also staples, but have actual costs that is the problem Crypt has, it doesn't have a downside. the 50% chance of losing 3 health both slows the game down and is kind of irrelevant for most decks. Its removal creates more decision making when building a deck, which I believe is good for the game.
It would be toxic if it was actually harming the format. It always comes down to rule 0. If your pod doesn't like you running mana crypt, you play your decks without it, or adjust when you meet next time. Such a rare and expensive card too, the only pods that saw mana crypt were then ones that wanted to
I agree. Anyone disagreeing with you has stock in the card.
Sol Ring costs one mana, which any reasonable deck can produce starting on turn one. Sol Ring's lack of a color identity or any meaningful drawback means that "there is a reasonable argument for it being in every single commander deck, [which] makes it a toxic card,". Sol Ring has zero downside apart from maybe being weaker late game after you've expended all of your resources, whereas Mana Crypt literally does have the downside of it occasionally dealing three damage to you. The RC is correct that oftentimes Mana Crypt functions as if it doesn't have any other text besides its mana ability. But it does have an actual drawback in its text box. Sol Ring stifles creativity in deckbuilding as much as Mana Crypt, if not more due to its ubiquity. Every player and their mother has a Sol Ring.
@@sejerrasmussen6537 then why have a banlist at all?
@@paranoidhawklet A lot of players have been asking themselves that over the years lol. If you ask the Rules Committee, it was to offer a rough guideline on what they felt wouldn't be good for the format (sway the stars and worldfire-type effects, but also specific cards like Channel). Commander was never supposed to be a tightly monitored format, it was all casual after all!
But for the players, the easiest thing has always been to just use that list as THE banlist. For 99.9% of players (and especially new players), ignoring the "but it always comes down to rule 0"-part, makes for a more streamlined and easier experience.
My own playgroup has always respected the banlist, but after this whole spectacle, we're planning on just unbanning everything (except power9, channel and it's friends), cause that's the experience we want, and we're not even cedh
Sol ring should've been banned as well. They even admitted to it, but whatever followed in their excuses can be diluted to: ''We didn't have the guts to do it''.
Cedh should just accept its a different format and use its own banlist, instead of copying an openly ''casual'' format. The value of these cards would then be somewhat retained since they'd still have a home.
If cEDH is to become it's own format, it would need to change its name (among a lot of other things). One problem with that is how there will always be players trying to push the limits of any given format, regardless of whether it's marketed as casual or competitive. A lot of cEDH players view themselves as EDH players that have a rule-zero conversation ensuring anything goes.
How many players realistically have managed crypt? Maybe ~10% of all commander players on the high end? 100% of players have sol ring and the damage to the format would be way bigger than mana crypt. I also dont think crypt shouldve been banned, but sol ring is just a no ban.
Cedh players aren't "copying" a format. Within every single format there are players that will want to do the most optimal thing. They are just as much part of commander as you and me
@@t3152 By that notion, doesn't that mean that Sol Ring contributes to more of the explosive starts that the RC wants to tone down?
@@blfngl it entirely does, literally nobody is debating that. The point the RC is trying to make is that they want less in general. The issue isnt having one of these in your deck, its having all 3 and more which significantly increases the chance of a very accelerated start.
We need to separate EDH and cEDH