Shady Doorags at first I almost closed the video cuz the audio isnt as clear as what Im used too but im glad I stuck around the analysis was great man keep it up!!!
Thank you for making this video. The audio is great. I’ve been trying to find a TH-camr with observations about this glad I finally did. Will be keeping up for sure.
Lit Woman This Is The Verse. Man hands off misery to Man, it deepens like a coastal shelf. Get out as quickly as you can, and don’t have any kids yourself. I first read the closing stanza when I was 13, in Series of Unfortunate Events.
Beatrice grew up to be her father and then lost her mind like her mother Her worst fears were realized Bojack grew up to be harsh and cold like his mother and a dead beat like his father Cycles continue Holly hock is an Innocent and naive girl who wants to be loved just like her mother
Bojack already broke the cycle a little bit there, by going against his norm and behaving in a caring and unselfish way with her in the last episode of that season. He chose not to tell her that her feelings are stupid, as she was openly expressing that she supposed they must be. Unlike the message he got about his feelings when he was young, and unlike the message Bea got about hers when she was young. I hope the shift in Bojack continues, it's so heartwarming to see that change.
I was thinking that she was cold and mean to Bojack because her mother went crazy after loving her son (crackerjack) and losing them. This leads me to believe that she is scared of becoming her mother. Beatrice’s mother even says to her “Beatrice never love anyone as much as I loved crackerjack”(Beatrice’s brother)
Thunder cat maybe a mixture of both. She was cold and unforgiving because her fear of becoming like her mother. But her methods were like her father's.
Cheyanne Morgan I see hollyhock as an angel descending from heaven in the middle of the war like in those old stories you know the old deus ex machina at the end of those places where the gods come and and the battle?
TERRY IBUKI yeah cuz she makes bojack genuinely want to help her and doesn't care if she recognizes his help because he still really cares for her. She is the best thing in bojacks life
I don't think it's innocence. Crackerjack was presented as an aspect of innocence, and there was no connection made between the doll and Crackerjack. Maybe it's the idea of family - either familial love, or caring and honest emotion within the family, or just the ability to be sincere and authentic in her interactions.
It could also represent that that was the last thing she loved and represented how she lost everyone until her father burned the baby the last thing she ever loved and cared for
The best thing about this particular episode is that they waited FOUR seasons to give it to us. For all those episodes we were only given Bojack's view of Beatrice and what a horrible person she was. We got to understand her at the very end, when some could say that it was too late. She was still a terrible mother, don't get me wrong, but it was interesting seeing why she became that way, especially when it's clear that she really wants the baby when she first gets pregnant.
The episode explains why she is the terrible person she is, making her relateable without absolving any of her flaws. This is why the show is so great.
Yep, I love that they show that. Some people are terrible because of things that happened to them. It doesn't excuse their terribleness, but it gives an explanation to how they became who they are. Nothing is black and white.
Its the perfect showing of "That's the reason, but not the excuse." Like yeah her life was shit, but its not an excuse. She had the chance to break the cycle, but she wouldn't, well more accurately, didn't know how to.
It's sad how Beatrice does become like her mother... She gets dementia and slowly loses her mind. And she become like her father, unsympathetic and taking away someone's baby. We are our parents. If we don't learn from their mistakes, we must repeat them.
@@__sigh my father was an alcoholic* and beat the shit out of my Mother , sister and me ,once he broke my Mothers teeth ,and now i have fucking ptsd and when i date someone i cant even try to hurt them ,even a little scratch, i'm "forced" to love ... Ppl can do change
@@yomamasfuckboy6893 Yeah man completely agree with you, your parents or your childhood don't define you. Unless you let it happen, some people do and it's understandable since they don't know any better. But if you are aware of your parents faults you have to do the work to be better than that
This show has a way of presenting characters as deeply flawed and sometimes downright terrible people, but it still manages to humanize them and make you care so much. This show has brought me to tears more than anything else ever has.
Pruefer WuesteLPC I know! It's such severe dramatic irony for the audience, us, to see Beatrice but for bojack to not know this at all. How would bojack be if he knew any of this? Would he be capable of being more compassionate now that he understands how much in pain those who caused him pain where in? Would he better deal with his pains of he understood the source?
I think he could be. When Bojack had the chance to completely destroy her like he said he wanted to, he couldn't do it. He's not as monstrous as his mother. He wanted to be, to treat her in kind, but he couldn't bring himself to. I think that's the key with Bojack and why so many follow him even after all of this. He's not a bad person, he makes bad decisions because of his confused search for happiness, but he always feels regret for them and is now at least since the start of season 4, trying to do something about it. We want him to find his happiness, because in this hyper real (yes I know, the horse person series), genius of a show, maybe it can show us how we can find happiness too.
Honestly, I see Beatrice's lie about the taste of ice cream as Beatrice finally being a good mother. She's already realized that Bojack is lying, and instead of berating him for his mistake, she lies back to him. She lies to let her son believe that his lie worked, and give him that little bit of comfort. God what a show.
personnally I think J Sugarman is more despicable than Beatrice. Idk if he's a good depiction of men's mentality of the time, but he's the main reasons behind his family downfall. He lacks empathy, runs from the slightest problem, tries to force-marry his daughter, lobotomises his own wife and breaks emotionnally Beatrice as much as he can just to make her stronger. He's rich, successfull, but still he managed to destroyed what should've been the most precious thing to him, his family. I hate him.
Z Zs im guessing Beatrice was born in the 30s, around that time women were still veiwed as baby makers and were just starting to fight for individuality. Even so Joseph is still extra cold harted for that time. I wonder what led him to acting that way, as they say "hurt people, hurt people "
That is historic revisionism and nothing more. I have no problem with the depiction in the series itself, because assholes are everywhere in any time, and considering Bojack it makes sense that he would come from a family tree where each generation abused the next. But this idea that women in general were ever a poor oppressed class in the past and were viewed only as baby makers has no basis in actual history. Please stop spreading these lies made up by bigoted ideologues. This is "Jews always held down Aryans" level of hate propaganda.
And then Bojack tells about the vanille icecream in Michican. You can see on Beatrice's face she can't recall vanilla icecream because she wasn't allowed by Honey to eat that (instead she sucked on a lemon piece)!
And if you pay attention, in the flashback when Beatrice is giving Bojack the painting and Bojack opens the fridge to give her some wine, the fridge only has lemons and sugar, which supports your claim that the only snack she can remember is lemons with sugar (since the flashback is just a memory)!!!!
When Bojack tells her about the vanilla ice cream and she hesitates its her snapping out of the peaceful setting bojack is trying to set but she continues to indulge in the fantasy because as Princess Carolyn said it may be fake but it makes her feel better (not her exact words but that's basically what she says)
this made me want to cry, the episode made me want to cry. it was very confusing when I watched that episode and I had many conflicting feelings for Beatrice due to bojack but in the end it made me sad.
What I love about this episode is that it makes the audience sympathize with Beatrice without trying to make them forgive her. Without this episode, Bojack's act of comforting Beatrice would've made everyone hate him because we felt she deserved it. But because this episode played, we feel that "Yeah, she was horrible. But she's had enough bad things happen to her. She doesn't need any more." It makes us feel exactly the same as Bojack, and that's an incredible thing to accomplish.
It’s simple. Honey Sugarman is shadowed out because Beatrice was terrified of ending up like her. She didn’t want her father to lobotomize her too. Honey’s not Beatrice’s fears; she’s what Joseph threatened to turn Beatrice into if she didn’t get in line. But in the end, Beatrice ended up with dementia, so we can see how that turned out.
"Because Beatrice is terrified of ending up like her." "Honey is not Beatrice's fear." You see how these two sentences contradict each other? I can see how you might not agree that Honey doesn't represent Beatrice's fear of loss, but you've pretty much agreed that she represents a fear of some kind.
I personally don't think that Joseph would repeat a lobotomy on another after how well that turned out for his wife. I feel like Joseph was warning Beatrice that when she's grown up and on her own, her insecurities could lead her to an unwanted fate worse than death.
I don't think Joseph would lobotomize her at all. He regretted doing that to her wife and wished he could go back, he also told her mother Beatrice was all they had. I don't think he was evil either, he was a terrible person with an awefull antiquated mindset but I really think his intentions were not bad. His family must have broken him as well, teaching him the model of man he grew up into, successful in business but almost emotionless or at least, inable to show empathy because he saw it as a weakness.
The lobotomy is a symbol too. It doesn't have to be a just a literal lobotomy. A lot of people grow up fearing that they will end up like their parents who have lost themselves; given up their identity because of social pressures to conform and fit into a certain role. Society tells us that it is not okay to be human; to have emotions and to have flaws. Our jobs expect us to not get sick and not have bad days. The interactions become flat just as if we did have a labotomy. But, hey, the silver lining is that there definitely is progress since there is no longer literal lobotomies. Although, I could argue that they still exist in chemical form.
That could be true but I feel that a literal lobotomy would continue the trends that were shocking yet very VERY true and more commonplace during the 1940-50's (long story and lots of dark stories at that :/) Especially for those with troubling mental illnesses and issues that wealthier folk dont want to deal with, as her father seems to behave
I like that, but I feel as though that can be argued as an abstract take on a concrete message the author was going for. Back in the 1940s-50s the landscape of women's rights were very different to a degree where they'd have their brains carved out if they were deemed a problem, or "out of line". Dr. Freedman, the lobotomy guy, LOVED to exert his power over women and children as structural anomalies in households that would function well without the "flaw" of their "hysteria". He used it with his first patient, JFKs sister and countless other examples. This domestic oppression leads to some twisted personalities to form in its wake, like overtly submissive, attenuated women or women who opted for the opposite with dominance and abrasive personality traits as their only method of self-salvaging. After all, in the way it was framed, the lobotomy could have been the ultimate punishment for an "unruly" wife, and this mandatory conformity doctrine of the 1940s caused some serious cycles of abuse for generations. it happened in my family, no doubt, on both sides. One had ECT/ICT and the other had a lobotomy.
One of the main points of this show is how Bojack's bad life dosent justify his actions. Beatrice had a crappy life and insicurities but that does not excuse her constantly "critical" treatment of bojack, she of anyone should know what horrors such a parent is and it's not like they're uncontrolled moments of anger or naivity.
@@2sense635 it does, however it's frustrating too different standards constantly being applied to one charcter (esp one you begin to empathise with) especially when that character is constantly shown as an asshole. Now I'm gonna turn of notifications here Cuz I haven't watched the last 1-2 seasons and don't want thm spoiled.
You did a great job highlighting the similarities between Beatrice and her father. I hadn't thought about her circumstances that in-depth before; makes me really appreciate the subtlety of the series as a whole. Keep up the good work!
It's why this episode is one of my favorites. When a show can take a character as unlikable as Beatrice and make the audience sympathize with her, it knows what its doing. And what's awesome is that there was no shark jumping. The show did not try to say what Beatrice did was okay, it simply tried to explain the behavior.
Man this show perfectly depicts how your past can indeed define you. You can’t pick and choose the things you internalize, what cored make up your person.
BJH really did a good job explaining why beatrice acts the way she does. It really shows that often toxic and abusive people are broken people with broken lives and not just some monster for no reason. In Bojack's memories he was a miserable, suffering soul whose parents didn't care or want him, and in bea's memories she is just the same as he is, and bojack never knew it because they both made it harder for each other to ever connect or understand each other. Its really sad that he'll never know his mom was just as sad as he was. It doesn't excuse her actions ether, but it helps the audience simpathize with her.
One of the main points of this show is how Bojack's bad life dosent justify his actions. Beatrice had a crappy life and insicurities but that does not excuse her constantly "critical" treatment of bojack, she of anyone should know what horrors such a parent is and it's not like they're uncontrolled moments of anger or naivity.
Beatrice reminds me of my mother and grandmother and not because they're bad it's because my mom lost her brother at a young age and my grandmother has the same thing as Beatrice has
"Time's Arrow" has to be, in my opinion, the best of the series. Perhaps there are a few other episodes that are written better, or where the dialogue is wittier, but only this one utilizes the power of animation to its full potential: meaningful, distinctive visuals that tell sophisticated, multi-layered stories.
Beatrice knew she wasn’t at the lake house at the end. She never knew what ice cream tasted like due to her father never letting her have it. So when Bojack says she’s having ice cream, she knew that she wasn’t there. But she lied anyway. So tragic
@@vivimariefedorov7374 I think it was for the best as we don't want her to be involved in such a screwed up situation. You just don't know what being involved with Bojack will bring. It might even have had destroyed Bojack's relationship with his half sister.
But she didn't make her best efforts. Seriously, there are tons of abused people that have raised above everything and become great people. Don't throw statements like that please
I noticed that those who perpetuate the abuse they received are those who think they deserve the treatment they got, that their parents were justified in doing what they did. The first step to healing is to realize that it wasn't their fault why they were abused. They have to accept that their parents were sick, broken people. I know this is true because it happened to me. There is a chance to break that cycle.
@@honeyk1581 All people are affected by their childhood specially by our parents. In my experience, as an adult I had to take responsibility for my own actions. When I saw that I was becoming like them, I made a choice to either change or become their clone. That seed will always be there because it's already been planted a long time ago. Everyday I'm aware of that and I choose not to let that part grow. Of course, I have help, I asked for help. I don't think I would have recovered if I didn't talk about what happened to me. I'm a parent myself now. When I gave birth to my daughter 17 years ago, she was my catalyst for change. I didn't want her to suffer like I did. Not wanting to become like my parents was not enough. There is a lot of work involved in breaking cycles. Even now, I don't take it for granted. I hope I was able to convey my ideas clear, English is not my first language.
This isn't true. Beatrice never tried, she believed her father was right. Diane tried. Some people try, yet still choose not to have kids because they're decent folks who don't want to risk it. Don't fool yourself into thinking you have no choice but to become abusive. It's a constant battle, but it's one you should never quit on.
The baby is symbolic of maternity/traditionally "motherly" emotions and the fear that beatrice's father and mother instilled on her is reflected when the baby being burned, killing that maternity she coule have had. The show is still about Bojack Horseman and the way people affect his life, so the point of the baby being burned was to show how Beatrice became a bad mother. Brilliant video.
Isn’t it sad that some of us out there have experienced even worse? (not to discredit Beatrice or those similar) I know first hand that this story is very real and can sadly be even more tragic for some of us :(
6:39 this also represents a slight change in Bojack's character. Right as she recognizes him, he chooses to do one final selfless act for her, the person whom damaged him so much, whom he resents with all of his heart. He is able to leave her final real, awake moment with comfort instead of fury. When she asks where they are, he recreates the memory of the old Sugarman summer house that haunted his time there, and fills it with all of the people she wanted to hear about, knowing she would not remember. "Dad is quietly playing the piano inside..." Even though he later states that he stayed with her in the ICU, and mistakes her last words for being awake for real, she likely wasn't. This was likely her last real moment of clarity, and Bojack was able to do something selfless for the one person he had every right not to.
Also a note: in the party scene we can see that the exit door is spelt XITE. I've seen people say it was the dimmensia but I have a theory its actually a symbol. This is the past. Regardless of mistakes made (following butterscotch out the door, away from her own party), There's no way to turn back. No way to exit. Time's arrow only marches forward, as was drilled into her head several times. Regardless of the fact that she dislikes these mistakes she has made leading up to bojack's conception, she'll never be able to undo that. Ever. I think she realized this the moment that she said "well, you're not." on the couch that one day.
This was a really good analysis of Beatrice great job! I didn't agree with your Diane video totally but you won me back over with this one. I love the points you made about honey sugarman as a shadow. I've heard a lot of people talk about the "she was a shadow of her former self" but I like the extra angle of fear there. btw audio sounding better. If you wanna clear up some of the echo noise try playing around with "dynamics processing" or try 'chris's dynamics compression plugin" . Im no sound engineer or anything but that advice was gien to me and it helped me clear up some audio i had to record for work before.
That episode hit hard for me when I watched it because it reminded me of my mother and the way my mom has described her father my mom was nowhere ever as mean as bojacks heck I found bojack relatable season 1and 2 but this episode was sad 😭 af.
I watch all episodes a couple times, but I've always hesitate to skip this episode because it makes me so uncomfortable. I force myself to watch it, because it's an important one.
Good point about the scratches. I always thought the scratches was a part of Beatrice's dementia. Faces she wants to remember but could not. And I agree that she could not bear to see her mother in her lobotomized state. Even by the standards of the time, Beatrice's father was a monster.
I just assumed some the scratched faces are signs of her dementia! Peope who played a big part in her life (household staff, Henrietta) that she remembers a bit, but not complete anymore. She mistook Bojack for Henrietta due to her dementia, but all of the sudden she recognizes him! Her dementia is also noticable with those quick setting changes in her memories.
I love episodes like these. It gives us context into why people do horrible things. It doesn't excuse the bad decisions that were made, but it shows us that they aren't an evil, heartless person, they are a person who is scared and hurt trying to deal with all of the traumas life gave them. It allows you to sympathize them and see them as a person rather than the monster you depict them to be.
This episode is my own personal hell. While I like your interpretation of the images, it struck closest to home while watching my father-in-law deteriorate daily from dementia. The symbolism was lost on me, but mostly because it does a magnificent visual telling of how this disease works. Some things remain and others become confused to such an extent that the victim can no longer tell which is which, and with every passing day, something else gets scribbled out or blanked entirely, leaving the tormented mind to try and fill in blanks that it knows shouldn't be there. I really am getting into your channel.
Blank face=never remembered in the first place Scribbled put=memory was corrupted and taken away by dementia I think it's as simple as that Although, the scar glowing could mean that she was hyperfocused on that when seeing her mom
But it’s only people she has very negative memories of who have their faces scribbled out. Plus people she HAS forgotten, like BoJack, have faces that AREN’T scribbled out.
Time's Arrow is my favourite episode. When I first saw it, I watched it over again immediately. It had *that* much of an effect on me. Shady, I think you totally nailed it in this video, confirming everything I thought. I've watched it four times now, and the subtleties are getting more focused - watch the portraits and pictures on walls, you see how they are almost like those "magic" moving pictures we got with chewing gum or cereal boxes when we were kids - the whole thing is how her memory is playing itself back to her. I really appreciated your take on this, and like I said, sir, YOU NAILED IT! Godspeed you Shady!
Its amazing to think that just as the expiriences they have in these shows to show character development, we all do in our own lives. Sometimes one act of kindness can be the thing that saves a person, others changing them. Truly life is one great stage!
6:20 also interesting how Bojack mentions 'this is what your life added up to' as if life is about destination or 'endings' He's still caught in that mindset in season 4 (and season 5 since he really didn't "have time" to face that part of him.
I've been binge watching your Bojack videos and I gotta say 10/10 analysis I love hearing your take on things it makes the show really interesting to rewatch
you completely b l e w my mind with the meaning behind the scribbled faces, honestly! I first thought it was because she was trying so hard to remember her face (since we, the audience were all curious about what hollyhock's mother looked like), but that didn't really make sense with the servants who burned her stuff. Then i thought it was a representation of the "unimportant" people that beatrice recented but didn't have a close connection to her like her family, but that didn't really make sense either considering how beatrice did end up being there for henrietta during her birth, and the fact that her schoolyard bullies's faces were remembered as well. I'm 2 years late from finding this video but it showed up on my recommended and i'm happy it did :)
Damn man, now that you put it together it makes it even more emotional. Good job breaking it down and put the pieces together, this all actually makes sense. While I was watching the show I was like aren't you supposed to live and learn after all that? Especially since she seemed to be a smart horsewoman, but the trauma we were shown and the way she was explains alot. I just wish we knew when she developed dementia. If Bojack's book set it off or not when we first see her.
This may seem a bit crazy but I think her mothers words telling her not to love anyone as much as she loved Crackerjack is a big reason behind her actions. Like if you agree.
With all due respect, happiness is not overrated. The biggest mistake is when we're convinced that our happiness hinges on other people. That's the error Beatrice made, then BoJack, Diane, etc. I also had a troubled history with my mom, but I grew up and realized that my happiness is solely in MY hands. It made me a stronger person.
The fact that BoJack’s face is clear during Beatrice and Butterscotch’s argument was heartbreaking for me. She remembers what her son was like living in dysfunction and what impact she had on him, and she might not even consciously realize it.
Remember kids! The people you know may have 80 years life spans (approx), but they might only have 60 years of being the person you still know! The mind might die before the body, and our souls, instead of being eternal, are our most fragile feature!
Yaniv Proselkov Our souls are eternal while the mind and the body isnt also in this episode somewhere there beatrice was still there but she has dementia.
Sometimes I think that family curses can never be undone, they are like those knots that you get in a sneaker, the one that you can't undo with your own fingers... But I think personally Bojack has seen one Angel and that one Angel lifted him up out of the pits of hell... I guess...
That scene is such a gut wrencher. He didn't play the end of it, but at the end Bojack tells his mom she's eating ice cream and if she can taste it. As a child her father wouldn't let her have ice cream though. You can see the immersion broken in her eyes for that split second after Bojack asks her about the ice cream, but not wanting to close off her son's attempt to make her happy, makes him happy by lying to him about the ice cream.
I want peoples opinions on this. At the end people notice that when Bojack asks Beatrice if she can "taste the ice cream" it shows beatrice looking away for a bit until she finally says it was delicious. For me, I've interpreted that scene as Beatrice wondering why Bojack is being nice to her since he pretty much hates her guts, and realizing that he's finally moving on, something she should have done. The reason why I interpret it that way is because the episode's title is "Time's Arrow", yet for the entire episode we see Beatrice living in the past. Time's Arrow is supposed to march on, not get stuck in the past. I think those last few seconds of the episode was supposed to highlight how "time's arrow" marches on because all the while Beatrice has been bitter and nasty about her past, she sees her son right in front of him breaking the cycle of abuse and "marching on" from the past. This explains the seemingly random "fuck" Bojack used indirectly towards his mom. Bojack says fuck you to all the shitty things in his past and finally decides to start being a better person. Very rough anaylsis because im running late for class but what do you guys think?
DUDE YO.. I just remember that she can't have an ice cream in her childhood. that trips me out. Gotta rewatch season 4 again (when my mental is stable and ready)
Maybe, but when Bea and his mother goes to celebrate the end of the war, she ask her mom for an ice cream and she, unestable, says its ok. I think Beatrice look away because, in her mental illness, come and go from past to present. She remember Michigan and, out of nothing, she is in there with Bojack. So hearthbreaking
And at the end, as he was on his way out of the room, Bojack gave Beatrice a measure of comfort, telling her that she was where he knew she'd want to be. Probably hated himself for sympathizing with her. But he proved that he's a better person than she was, because he had compassion even when it was difficult to feel it.
This episode was amazing. And I've rewatched it several times. I dunno if you've talked about it before but I wanted to ask you or anyone reading this really about the last conversation between Bojack and Beatrice. When he's picturing her life on the Michigan house. At the beginning Beatrice looks happy and is smiling, but at the end Bojack mentions ice cream, and asks Beatrice if she can taste the ice cream. Beatrice's smile disappears and she becomes sad and answers that it's delicious after a slight pause. I never realized it but it's because Beatrice has never eaten ice cream. She doesn't know what it tastes like. So I'm wondering then if she, at that moment, realized Bojack is just plain lying to her instead of actually thinking she's there because of her mental health, and she decided on that answer to keep Bojack thinking she's still imagining it but can't help feeling sad over realizing all that has been lost and where she really is.
It's not impossible, but it's more head canon than anything. Not really enough evidence to support it. Beatrice could've just pictured something else that tasted good and substituted that. Personally, I saw the ice cream as the ultimate dream fulfillment, since it was something Beatrice was constantly told she couldn't have, but finally got it, but that's just as much head canon.
Iosif I I agree with you, she often has moments going in and out of recollection. She had no idea who her own son was and then within seconds she remembered him He was able to trick her into believing that she was somewhere else by using her memories, but you’re correct, she has no memory of what ice cream taste like, so when asked the question her brain is searching for the answer and it is blank. I wouldn’t say she realized that Bojack is “tricking” her, I would say it takes her out of the visual environment that Bojack is setting for her and takes her out of her memories and brings her back to her new homeostasis state brought on by dementia so she is no longer In her “happy place” she’s alone.
This video was actually the most eye opening out of the rest of them this actually does make A LOT of sense. Please please please make more videos like this for BoJack Horseman. Maybe the other seasons or characters (like Todd) connect to stuff like this and that causes him to be the way he is? This was 10/10 but graphics and audio could be better.
God DAMN dude these videos are wonderful. This was my absolute favorite episode, and you connected dots I didn't and made it even more amazing. I need to go re watch it now.
"you cant let your womanly emotions consume you you don't want to end up like your mother now do you" DAMN that sounds exactly like my dad, oh boy this is scary, and the worst part about all of this is he acts so much like the stereotypical 1950s conservative father who's emotionally/mentally manipulative and abusive its so alike.
Great video! Could you possibly examine the reoccurring theme of having a baby in the show? There’s been a lot of characters who seem obsessed with the notion of not/having a family- namely: -Hollyhock and her search for her birth mother -Beatrice and her unwillingness to have an abortion -Diane and her abortion (remember her last line in Brap Brap Pew Pew: “everyone loves a baby!”) -Princess Carolyn and her need to be a mother -BoJack’s wish to have stable relationships in his life (seen in his desire to pursue deeper meanings in his affairs with PC, Ana Spanikopita, Wanda, and Gina) These moments seem disconnected, but perhaps you could find something?
"To try to stop our fears we end up creating what we sought to destroy" Forgot where this quote came from but it is very true. There were times I would try to take extreme precautions to stop people from leaving out of my life, but all it did was make me look horrible enough to make them leave faster. Never take someone elses faults as your future.....
Beatrice and Bojack perfectly depict the cycle of continuous abuse that happens in families. Parents have trauma and don’t know how to deal with it so they project that trauma on their kids which it then continues. It takes a lot to break sadly.... this show showed that journey too well in my opinion
I would also like to notice that throughout her memories, there is a blurry vignette present in the entire episode on the edges of the screen. This effect gets blurrier the more significant and/or recent the memory is. In the memory where her stuff is being burned, you can't see the edges of the screen very clearly at all. Notice how 4:57, her conversation with Bojack around 2007/2008 (when The Bojack Horseman Show premiered), it's VERY blurry and appears to fade in and out of blurriness, creating a woozy effect.
I really enjoyed your thoughts on the scratched out faces! I was looking at it as those people betrayed her in some way: sleeping with her husband or throwing away belongings that meant so much to her. Yes, Butterscotch betrayed her too but she was willing to continue to deal with him and she's afraid of losing him (like you said). Anyway, you gave me another way of looking at it.
Working with Audacity to try and get better audio. I'm still new to it, so any and all feedback is appreciated.
The audio sounds fantastic.
Shady Doorags at first I almost closed the video cuz the audio isnt as clear as what Im used too but im glad I stuck around the analysis was great man keep it up!!!
Thank you for making this video. The audio is great. I’ve been trying to find a TH-camr with observations about this glad I finally did. Will be keeping up for sure.
Shady Doorags keep up the hard work!!
If you want more subscribers I'd take care of that right away. Cause you're right, the audio sounds very bad. Like it sounds like low budget trash.
I loved that one tweet that summed this episode up: "you'll inherit your parents' trauma but you'll never fully understand it".
jeez thats deep
Well doesn't that paint a pretty picture. Haha haah...
.......fuck. I always knew I didn't want children, and now that coffin has been sealed shut. I am not passing on my trauma to them.
See it or Flick it. relatable, have a nice day.
Lit Woman This Is The Verse. Man hands off misery to Man, it deepens like a coastal shelf. Get out as quickly as you can, and don’t have any kids yourself.
I first read the closing stanza when I was 13, in Series of Unfortunate Events.
Beatrice grew up to be her father and then lost her mind like her mother
Her worst fears were realized
Bojack grew up to be harsh and cold like his mother and a dead beat like his father
Cycles continue
Holly hock is an Innocent and naive girl who wants to be loved just like her mother
Bojack already broke the cycle a little bit there, by going against his norm and behaving in a caring and unselfish way with her in the last episode of that season. He chose not to tell her that her feelings are stupid, as she was openly expressing that she supposed they must be. Unlike the message he got about his feelings when he was young, and unlike the message Bea got about hers when she was young. I hope the shift in Bojack continues, it's so heartwarming to see that change.
I was thinking that she was cold and mean to Bojack because her mother went crazy after loving her son (crackerjack) and losing them. This leads me to believe that she is scared of becoming her mother. Beatrice’s mother even says to her “Beatrice never love anyone as much as I loved crackerjack”(Beatrice’s brother)
Thunder cat maybe a mixture of both. She was cold and unforgiving because her fear of becoming like her mother. But her methods were like her father's.
Cheyanne Morgan I see hollyhock as an angel descending from heaven in the middle of the war like in those old stories you know the old deus ex machina at the end of those places where the gods come and and the battle?
TERRY IBUKI yeah cuz she makes bojack genuinely want to help her and doesn't care if she recognizes his help because he still really cares for her. She is the best thing in bojacks life
I think that Beatrice’s baby is a representation of her innocence, which her father forcefully took from her after her mother’s lobotomy.
Oh, I hadn't thought of that. That's quite possible.
Skylar Blue WOOOOOOOOORRRRRRRRRRRRED
I don't think it's innocence. Crackerjack was presented as an aspect of innocence, and there was no connection made between the doll and Crackerjack.
Maybe it's the idea of family - either familial love, or caring and honest emotion within the family, or just the ability to be sincere and authentic in her interactions.
Or the last good thing left in her life.
It could also represent that that was the last thing she loved and represented how she lost everyone until her father burned the baby the last thing she ever loved and cared for
The best thing about this particular episode is that they waited FOUR seasons to give it to us. For all those episodes we were only given Bojack's view of Beatrice and what a horrible person she was. We got to understand her at the very end, when some could say that it was too late. She was still a terrible mother, don't get me wrong, but it was interesting seeing why she became that way, especially when it's clear that she really wants the baby when she first gets pregnant.
The episode explains why she is the terrible person she is, making her relateable without absolving any of her flaws. This is why the show is so great.
Yep, I love that they show that. Some people are terrible because of things that happened to them. It doesn't excuse their terribleness, but it gives an explanation to how they became who they are. Nothing is black and white.
Its the perfect showing of "That's the reason, but not the excuse." Like yeah her life was shit, but its not an excuse. She had the chance to break the cycle, but she wouldn't, well more accurately, didn't know how to.
As Thomas Adès said in an interview about his and Philip Hensher's opera Powder Her Face: "Even horrible people are tragic."
It's sad how Beatrice does become like her mother... She gets dementia and slowly loses her mind. And she become like her father, unsympathetic and taking away someone's baby.
We are our parents. If we don't learn from their mistakes, we must repeat them.
More like you WILL repeat then as hard as you try, whatever tiny bit.
@@__sigh But we can try to rise above them and break the cycle...
@@theunraveler True.
@@__sigh my father was an alcoholic* and beat the shit out of my Mother , sister and me ,once he broke my Mothers teeth ,and now i have fucking ptsd and when i date someone i cant even try to hurt them ,even a little scratch, i'm "forced" to love ... Ppl can do change
@@yomamasfuckboy6893 Yeah man completely agree with you, your parents or your childhood don't define you. Unless you let it happen, some people do and it's understandable since they don't know any better. But if you are aware of your parents faults you have to do the work to be better than that
This show has a way of presenting characters as deeply flawed and sometimes downright terrible people, but it still manages to humanize them and make you care so much. This show has brought me to tears more than anything else ever has.
That last thing about when she woke up... That was a massive stab to the heart. Wow.
This episode made me almost want to quit the show. I felt emotionally destroyed. The show is fucking amazing.
Pruefer WuesteLPC I know! It's such severe dramatic irony for the audience, us, to see Beatrice but for bojack to not know this at all.
How would bojack be if he knew any of this? Would he be capable of being more compassionate now that he understands how much in pain those who caused him pain where in? Would he better deal with his pains of he understood the source?
I think he could be. When Bojack had the chance to completely destroy her like he said he wanted to, he couldn't do it. He's not as monstrous as his mother. He wanted to be, to treat her in kind, but he couldn't bring himself to. I think that's the key with Bojack and why so many follow him even after all of this. He's not a bad person, he makes bad decisions because of his confused search for happiness, but he always feels regret for them and is now at least since the start of season 4, trying to do something about it. We want him to find his happiness, because in this hyper real (yes I know, the horse person series), genius of a show, maybe it can show us how we can find happiness too.
I'm scared to re-watched the series before season five come up. Too many emotional gut punches.
@@Wolf10media What did you think of season 5?
Honestly, I see Beatrice's lie about the taste of ice cream as Beatrice finally being a good mother.
She's already realized that Bojack is lying, and instead of berating him for his mistake, she lies back to him.
She lies to let her son believe that his lie worked, and give him that little bit of comfort.
God what a show.
Never noticed Joseph Sugarman's devil horns! Also great video all around!!
iluvbluecookies97 the way I saw this flashback is like Beatrice’s purgatory.
personnally I think J Sugarman is more despicable than Beatrice. Idk if he's a good depiction of men's mentality of the time, but he's the main reasons behind his family downfall. He lacks empathy, runs from the slightest problem, tries to force-marry his daughter, lobotomises his own wife and breaks emotionnally Beatrice as much as he can just to make her stronger. He's rich, successfull, but still he managed to destroyed what should've been the most precious thing to him, his family. I hate him.
"he's a good depiction of men's mentality of the time" Like hell he is, he is a good depiction of a feminist strawman about men.
Z Zs im guessing Beatrice was born in the 30s, around that time women were still veiwed as baby makers and were just starting to fight for individuality. Even so Joseph is still extra cold harted for that time. I wonder what led him to acting that way, as they say "hurt people, hurt people "
That is historic revisionism and nothing more. I have no problem with the depiction in the series itself, because assholes are everywhere in any time, and considering Bojack it makes sense that he would come from a family tree where each generation abused the next. But this idea that women in general were ever a poor oppressed class in the past and were viewed only as baby makers has no basis in actual history. Please stop spreading these lies made up by bigoted ideologues. This is "Jews always held down Aryans" level of hate propaganda.
Damn, she turned out to be just like her dad. God..
Abused children often do.
@@WobblesandBean at least not all.
@@samsev Thankfully, yes. But I'm not having children myself, cuz I'm too scared of perpetuating the cycle.
@@samsev I do hope not all.... Because I know I can't stop mine.... But I hope others can
And then Bojack tells about the vanille icecream in Michican. You can see on Beatrice's face she can't recall vanilla icecream because she wasn't allowed by Honey to eat that (instead she sucked on a lemon piece)!
And if you pay attention, in the flashback when Beatrice is giving Bojack the painting and Bojack opens the fridge to give her some wine, the fridge only has lemons and sugar, which supports your claim that the only snack she can remember is lemons with sugar (since the flashback is just a memory)!!!!
When Bojack tells her about the vanilla ice cream and she hesitates its her snapping out of the peaceful setting bojack is trying to set but she continues to indulge in the fantasy because as Princess Carolyn said it may be fake but it makes her feel better (not her exact words but that's basically what she says)
Yuzu Aluett jesus
this made me want to cry, the episode made me want to cry. it was very confusing when I watched that episode and I had many conflicting feelings for Beatrice due to bojack but in the end it made me sad.
What I love about this episode is that it makes the audience sympathize with Beatrice without trying to make them forgive her. Without this episode, Bojack's act of comforting Beatrice would've made everyone hate him because we felt she deserved it. But because this episode played, we feel that "Yeah, she was horrible. But she's had enough bad things happen to her. She doesn't need any more." It makes us feel exactly the same as Bojack, and that's an incredible thing to accomplish.
GamingLuluNightmare I cried too!
@@ShadyDoorags as my dad always says, its explains why they are they way they are, but it doesn't change their actions.
It’s simple. Honey Sugarman is shadowed out because Beatrice was terrified of ending up like her. She didn’t want her father to lobotomize her too. Honey’s not Beatrice’s fears; she’s what Joseph threatened to turn Beatrice into if she didn’t get in line. But in the end, Beatrice ended up with dementia, so we can see how that turned out.
"Because Beatrice is terrified of ending up like her."
"Honey is not Beatrice's fear."
You see how these two sentences contradict each other? I can see how you might not agree that Honey doesn't represent Beatrice's fear of loss, but you've pretty much agreed that she represents a fear of some kind.
Shady Doorags, true.
I personally don't think that Joseph would repeat a lobotomy on another after how well that turned out for his wife. I feel like Joseph was warning Beatrice that when she's grown up and on her own, her insecurities could lead her to an unwanted fate worse than death.
I don't think Joseph would lobotomize her at all. He regretted doing that to her wife and wished he could go back, he also told her mother Beatrice was all they had. I don't think he was evil either, he was a terrible person with an awefull antiquated mindset but I really think his intentions were not bad. His family must have broken him as well, teaching him the model of man he grew up into, successful in business but almost emotionless or at least, inable to show empathy because he saw it as a weakness.
She had Scarlet Fever, that's why they are burning her things and the dark burning joke.
I thought this was going to be a goofy show about a cartoon horse.
We all did...
It turned out much better than that.
I think that's how we all started watching the show. But it turned out to be much more than that.
Normal words but a horse guy
Literally my thoughts on steven universe too - just some kid who liked cookie cat and shit.
I like how when Honey is seen in the shadows, Beatrice always remembers her mother's lobotomy scar. It's been perminantly burned into her memory.
The lobotomy is a symbol too. It doesn't have to be a just a literal lobotomy. A lot of people grow up fearing that they will end up like their parents who have lost themselves; given up their identity because of social pressures to conform and fit into a certain role. Society tells us that it is not okay to be human; to have emotions and to have flaws. Our jobs expect us to not get sick and not have bad days. The interactions become flat just as if we did have a labotomy. But, hey, the silver lining is that there definitely is progress since there is no longer literal lobotomies. Although, I could argue that they still exist in chemical form.
That could be true
but I feel that a literal lobotomy would continue the trends that were shocking yet very VERY true and more commonplace during the 1940-50's (long story and lots of dark stories at that :/)
Especially for those with troubling mental illnesses and issues that wealthier folk dont want to deal with, as her father seems to behave
It should've never existed, nor should it have continued in any shape or form!
I like that, but I feel as though that can be argued as an abstract take on a concrete message the author was going for.
Back in the 1940s-50s the landscape of women's rights were very different to a degree where they'd have their brains carved out if they were deemed a problem, or "out of line". Dr. Freedman, the lobotomy guy, LOVED to exert his power over women and children as structural anomalies in households that would function well without the "flaw" of their "hysteria". He used it with his first patient, JFKs sister and countless other examples. This domestic oppression leads to some twisted personalities to form in its wake, like overtly submissive, attenuated women or women who opted for the opposite with dominance and abrasive personality traits as their only method of self-salvaging.
After all, in the way it was framed, the lobotomy could have been the ultimate punishment for an "unruly" wife, and this mandatory conformity doctrine of the 1940s caused some serious cycles of abuse for generations. it happened in my family, no doubt, on both sides. One had ECT/ICT and the other had a lobotomy.
One of the main points of this show is how Bojack's bad life dosent justify his actions. Beatrice had a crappy life and insicurities but that does not excuse her constantly "critical" treatment of bojack, she of anyone should know what horrors such a parent is and it's not like they're uncontrolled moments of anger or naivity.
likira111 moment of anger also doesn’t justify anything
Moment of anger can't be controlled.
Shows the writing was good huh?
@@2sense635 it does, however it's frustrating too different standards constantly being applied to one charcter (esp one you begin to empathise with) especially when that character is constantly shown as an asshole. Now I'm gonna turn of notifications here Cuz I haven't watched the last 1-2 seasons and don't want thm spoiled.
We can't control what other people do to hurt us, but we can control what we do to hurt others.
You did a great job highlighting the similarities between Beatrice and her father. I hadn't thought about her circumstances that in-depth before; makes me really appreciate the subtlety of the series as a whole. Keep up the good work!
It's why this episode is one of my favorites. When a show can take a character as unlikable as Beatrice and make the audience sympathize with her, it knows what its doing. And what's awesome is that there was no shark jumping. The show did not try to say what Beatrice did was okay, it simply tried to explain the behavior.
Joseph: stole baby doll
Beatrice: stole real baby
Bojack: stole baby doll
The cycle of baby-stealing continues.
It wont bc bojack doesnt have kids 💀💀😭
Man this show perfectly depicts how your past can indeed define you. You can’t pick and choose the things you internalize, what cored make up your person.
BJH really did a good job explaining why beatrice acts the way she does. It really shows that often toxic and abusive people are broken people with broken lives and not just some monster for no reason. In Bojack's memories he was a miserable, suffering soul whose parents didn't care or want him, and in bea's memories she is just the same as he is, and bojack never knew it because they both made it harder for each other to ever connect or understand each other. Its really sad that he'll never know his mom was just as sad as he was.
It doesn't excuse her actions ether, but it helps the audience simpathize with her.
So sad, yet so relatable.
How many people like Beatrice are out there?
Rough guess? Five.
Well not many people have a lobotomized mother.
One of the main points of this show is how Bojack's bad life dosent justify his actions. Beatrice had a crappy life and insicurities but that does not excuse her constantly "critical" treatment of bojack, she of anyone should know what horrors such a parent is and it's not like they're uncontrolled moments of anger or naivity.
^^Doesn't excuse it, but it does explain it.
Beatrice reminds me of my mother and grandmother and not because they're bad it's because my mom lost her brother at a young age and my grandmother has the same thing as Beatrice has
You pointing out a few things that went over my head initially. Ugh you've made that episode just that much sadder :(
"Time's Arrow" has to be, in my opinion, the best of the series. Perhaps there are a few other episodes that are written better, or where the dialogue is wittier, but only this one utilizes the power of animation to its full potential: meaningful, distinctive visuals that tell sophisticated, multi-layered stories.
Time’s Arrow and The Old Sugarman Place took a character that was universally hated, to one who was…well, less hated. Pitied, at least.
Beatrice knew she wasn’t at the lake house at the end. She never knew what ice cream tasted like due to her father never letting her have it. So when Bojack says she’s having ice cream, she knew that she wasn’t there. But she lied anyway. So tragic
What I loved the most about season 4 is how much Bojack's personality makes sense. He is the combination of his parents.
You sold me on the crossed out face of Henriette. That's awesome.
I wish we got to see her in season 5. 🙍🏻♀️
@@vivimariefedorov7374 I think it was for the best as we don't want her to be involved in such a screwed up situation. You just don't know what being involved with Bojack will bring. It might even have had destroyed Bojack's relationship with his half sister.
Beatrice is a bleek reminder that the cycle of abuse ends up continuing despite one's best efforts.
But she didn't make her best efforts. Seriously, there are tons of abused people that have raised above everything and become great people. Don't throw statements like that please
@@SHYKOOPA that's true but some people don't want to be like their abusive parents and still become like this. It's sad but true
I noticed that those who perpetuate the abuse they received are those who think they deserve the treatment they got, that their parents were justified in doing what they did. The first step to healing is to realize that it wasn't their fault why they were abused. They have to accept that their parents were sick, broken people. I know this is true because it happened to me. There is a chance to break that cycle.
@@honeyk1581 All people are affected by their childhood specially by our parents. In my experience, as an adult I had to take responsibility for my own actions. When I saw that I was becoming like them, I made a choice to either change or become their clone. That seed will always be there because it's already been planted a long time ago. Everyday I'm aware of that and I choose not to let that part grow. Of course, I have help, I asked for help. I don't think I would have recovered if I didn't talk about what happened to me. I'm a parent myself now. When I gave birth to my daughter 17 years ago, she was my catalyst for change. I didn't want her to suffer like I did. Not wanting to become like my parents was not enough. There is a lot of work involved in breaking cycles. Even now, I don't take it for granted. I hope I was able to convey my ideas clear, English is not my first language.
This isn't true. Beatrice never tried, she believed her father was right. Diane tried.
Some people try, yet still choose not to have kids because they're decent folks who don't want to risk it.
Don't fool yourself into thinking you have no choice but to become abusive. It's a constant battle, but it's one you should never quit on.
The fact that her mother was labotomized and Beatrice gets dementia when she is older is a heartbreaking irony. Her greatest fear was realized
Time's Arrow is easily my favorite episode of Bojack Horseman
The baby is symbolic of maternity/traditionally "motherly" emotions and the fear that beatrice's father and mother instilled on her is reflected when the baby being burned, killing that maternity she coule have had. The show is still about Bojack Horseman and the way people affect his life, so the point of the baby being burned was to show how Beatrice became a bad mother. Brilliant video.
This video makes me so sad :( Nobody deserved Bea's life
or Bojack's. I wish she was more aware of her surroundings to have a better conversation with him
Well at least she wouldn't have to be the 9th ring of hell I guess you'll have to be stuck in a Limbo surrounded by dead babies
Isn’t it sad that some of us out there have experienced even worse? (not to discredit Beatrice or those similar) I know first hand that this story is very real and can sadly be even more tragic for some of us :(
I watched this episode high as hell one night and I bawled for about 3 hours
6:39 this also represents a slight change in Bojack's character. Right as she recognizes him, he chooses to do one final selfless act for her, the person whom damaged him so much, whom he resents with all of his heart. He is able to leave her final real, awake moment with comfort instead of fury. When she asks where they are, he recreates the memory of the old Sugarman summer house that haunted his time there, and fills it with all of the people she wanted to hear about, knowing she would not remember. "Dad is quietly playing the piano inside..." Even though he later states that he stayed with her in the ICU, and mistakes her last words for being awake for real, she likely wasn't. This was likely her last real moment of clarity, and Bojack was able to do something selfless for the one person he had every right not to.
Also a note: in the party scene we can see that the exit door is spelt XITE. I've seen people say it was the dimmensia but I have a theory its actually a symbol. This is the past. Regardless of mistakes made (following butterscotch out the door, away from her own party), There's no way to turn back. No way to exit. Time's arrow only marches forward, as was drilled into her head several times. Regardless of the fact that she dislikes these mistakes she has made leading up to bojack's conception, she'll never be able to undo that. Ever. I think she realized this the moment that she said "well, you're not." on the couch that one day.
This was a really good analysis of Beatrice great job! I didn't agree with your Diane video totally but you won me back over with this one. I love the points you made about honey sugarman as a shadow. I've heard a lot of people talk about the "she was a shadow of her former self" but I like the extra angle of fear there.
btw audio sounding better. If you wanna clear up some of the echo noise try playing around with "dynamics processing" or try 'chris's dynamics compression plugin" . Im no sound engineer or anything but that advice was gien to me and it helped me clear up some audio i had to record for work before.
Advice is greatly appreciated. Will do.
I always thought that along with Sarah Lynn, Beatrice and Honey were the most tragic characters.
Real
this was my favorite episode by far... so.. heartbreaking...
Every single time I see any of your Bojack videos I end up so sad and crying. I love them tho.
That episode hit hard for me when I watched it because it reminded me of my mother and the way my mom has described her father my mom was nowhere ever as mean as bojacks heck I found bojack relatable season 1and 2 but this episode was sad 😭 af.
I watch all episodes a couple times, but I've always hesitate to skip this episode because it makes me so uncomfortable. I force myself to watch it, because it's an important one.
Good point about the scratches. I always thought the scratches was a part of Beatrice's dementia. Faces she wants to remember but could not. And I agree that she could not bear to see her mother in her lobotomized state. Even by the standards of the time, Beatrice's father was a monster.
I just assumed some the scratched faces are signs of her dementia! Peope who played a big part in her life (household staff, Henrietta) that she remembers a bit, but not complete anymore. She mistook Bojack for Henrietta due to her dementia, but all of the sudden she recognizes him! Her dementia is also noticable with those quick setting changes in her memories.
This view on Beatrice's upbringing and how she was treated definitely makes me sympathise with her even more.
I love episodes like these. It gives us context into why people do horrible things. It doesn't excuse the bad decisions that were made, but it shows us that they aren't an evil, heartless person, they are a person who is scared and hurt trying to deal with all of the traumas life gave them. It allows you to sympathize them and see them as a person rather than the monster you depict them to be.
This episode is my own personal hell. While I like your interpretation of the images, it struck closest to home while watching my father-in-law deteriorate daily from dementia. The symbolism was lost on me, but mostly because it does a magnificent visual telling of how this disease works. Some things remain and others become confused to such an extent that the victim can no longer tell which is which, and with every passing day, something else gets scribbled out or blanked entirely, leaving the tormented mind to try and fill in blanks that it knows shouldn't be there.
I really am getting into your channel.
Blank face=never remembered in the first place
Scribbled put=memory was corrupted and taken away by dementia
I think it's as simple as that
Although, the scar glowing could mean that she was hyperfocused on that when seeing her mom
But it’s only people she has very negative memories of who have their faces scribbled out. Plus people she HAS forgotten, like BoJack, have faces that AREN’T scribbled out.
Time's Arrow is my favourite episode. When I first saw it, I watched it over again immediately. It had *that* much of an effect on me. Shady, I think you totally nailed it in this video, confirming everything I thought. I've watched it four times now, and the subtleties are getting more focused - watch the portraits and pictures on walls, you see how they are almost like those "magic" moving pictures we got with chewing gum or cereal boxes when we were kids - the whole thing is how her memory is playing itself back to her. I really appreciated your take on this, and like I said, sir, YOU NAILED IT! Godspeed you Shady!
Its amazing to think that just as the expiriences they have in these shows to show character development, we all do in our own lives. Sometimes one act of kindness can be the thing that saves a person, others changing them. Truly life is one great stage!
6:20
also interesting how Bojack mentions 'this is what your life added up to' as if life is about destination or 'endings' He's still caught in that mindset in season 4 (and season 5 since he really didn't "have time" to face that part of him.
I laughed when Beatrice's dad said crying is stupid.
Yes I realize I am a terrible person and I promise I'm working on it.
You are not alone. I too laughed at that and pretty much every other condescending Joseph said.
It's the way he said it. 😂
I've been binge watching your Bojack videos and I gotta say 10/10 analysis I love hearing your take on things it makes the show really interesting to rewatch
matthew brodericks performance as joseph sugarman is hauntingly perfect
you completely b l e w my mind with the meaning behind the scribbled faces, honestly! I first thought it was because she was trying so hard to remember her face (since we, the audience were all curious about what hollyhock's mother looked like), but that didn't really make sense with the servants who burned her stuff. Then i thought it was a representation of the "unimportant" people that beatrice recented but didn't have a close connection to her like her family, but that didn't really make sense either considering how beatrice did end up being there for henrietta during her birth, and the fact that her schoolyard bullies's faces were remembered as well. I'm 2 years late from finding this video but it showed up on my recommended and i'm happy it did :)
Damn man, now that you put it together it makes it even more emotional. Good job breaking it down and put the pieces together, this all actually makes sense. While I was watching the show I was like aren't you supposed to live and learn after all that? Especially since she seemed to be a smart horsewoman, but the trauma we were shown and the way she was explains alot. I just wish we knew when she developed dementia. If Bojack's book set it off or not when we first see her.
This may seem a bit crazy but I think her mothers words telling her not to love anyone as much as she loved Crackerjack is a big reason behind her actions. Like if you agree.
P.S. "her actions" being her cruelty (just throwing that out there if anyone got confused)
One can actually make the argument that her mother did more damage to her than what her father ever could.
i love your analysis videos you always hit the nail right on the head. happiness is overrated anyways
I'll be sure to apologize to the nail later and pray it does not have a concussion.
Shady Doorags too late. she's gone
With all due respect, happiness is not overrated. The biggest mistake is when we're convinced that our happiness hinges on other people. That's the error Beatrice made, then BoJack, Diane, etc. I also had a troubled history with my mom, but I grew up and realized that my happiness is solely in MY hands. It made me a stronger person.
Happiness isn’t overrated
@@amysennett7001 it was a joke my friends. Ie: "sleep is overrated" when something is scary
I freaking love your channel. Thank you for sharing your perspective.
Beautiful video. I love how you let the scene play at the end to truly affirm your last words. Great job
Season 4 was a emotional roller coaster that I ever wanted to get off. I cannot wait to see what’s in store for Season 5. Fantastic video, sir!!!
The fact that BoJack’s face is clear during Beatrice and Butterscotch’s argument was heartbreaking for me.
She remembers what her son was like living in dysfunction and what impact she had on him, and she might not even consciously realize it.
Remember kids! The people you know may have 80 years life spans (approx), but they might only have 60 years of being the person you still know! The mind might die before the body, and our souls, instead of being eternal, are our most fragile feature!
Yaniv Proselkov Our souls are eternal while the mind and the body isnt also in this episode somewhere there beatrice was still there but she has dementia.
Fuck beatrice that bitch couldnt have emotional resilience fuck her thank god she is dead so bojack doesnt get hurt more
Sometimes I think that family curses can never be undone, they are like those knots that you get in a sneaker, the one that you can't undo with your own fingers...
But I think personally Bojack has seen one Angel and that one Angel lifted him up out of the pits of hell... I guess...
Beatrice has to be one of the most compelling and complex characters in animation history.
Honey=the fear of losing your own mind
That scene is such a gut wrencher. He didn't play the end of it, but at the end Bojack tells his mom she's eating ice cream and if she can taste it. As a child her father wouldn't let her have ice cream though. You can see the immersion broken in her eyes for that split second after Bojack asks her about the ice cream, but not wanting to close off her son's attempt to make her happy, makes him happy by lying to him about the ice cream.
I want peoples opinions on this. At the end people notice that when Bojack asks Beatrice if she can "taste the ice cream" it shows beatrice looking away for a bit until she finally says it was delicious. For me, I've interpreted that scene as Beatrice wondering why Bojack is being nice to her since he pretty much hates her guts, and realizing that he's finally moving on, something she should have done. The reason why I interpret it that way is because the episode's title is "Time's Arrow", yet for the entire episode we see Beatrice living in the past. Time's Arrow is supposed to march on, not get stuck in the past.
I think those last few seconds of the episode was supposed to highlight how "time's arrow" marches on because all the while Beatrice has been bitter and nasty about her past, she sees her son right in front of him breaking the cycle of abuse and "marching on" from the past. This explains the seemingly random "fuck" Bojack used indirectly towards his mom. Bojack says fuck you to all the shitty things in his past and finally decides to start being a better person. Very rough anaylsis because im running late for class but what do you guys think?
Knife Cat I think she looked away because she never got to taste ice cream because of her sexist father, and she was forced to remember her past again
DUDE YO.. I just remember that she can't have an ice cream in her childhood. that trips me out. Gotta rewatch season 4 again (when my mental is stable and ready)
Maybe, but when Bea and his mother goes to celebrate the end of the war, she ask her mom for an ice cream and she, unestable, says its ok. I think Beatrice look away because, in her mental illness, come and go from past to present. She remember Michigan and, out of nothing, she is in there with Bojack. So hearthbreaking
Your theory does make sense. Along with the icecream, Beatrice is getting a preview of Heaven.
And at the end, as he was on his way out of the room, Bojack gave Beatrice a measure of comfort, telling her that she was where he knew she'd want to be. Probably hated himself for sympathizing with her. But he proved that he's a better person than she was, because he had compassion even when it was difficult to feel it.
Dam that's sooo dark.
Welcome to Bojack Horseman. Where dark is normal and normal is talking horses.
The way you diagnose these episodes is artistic. SUBSCRIBED.
Just realized it's been almost 6 years since S4 premiered and I still haven't recovered from it...
This episode was amazing. And I've rewatched it several times. I dunno if you've talked about it before but I wanted to ask you or anyone reading this really about the last conversation between Bojack and Beatrice. When he's picturing her life on the Michigan house. At the beginning Beatrice looks happy and is smiling, but at the end Bojack mentions ice cream, and asks Beatrice if she can taste the ice cream. Beatrice's smile disappears and she becomes sad and answers that it's delicious after a slight pause. I never realized it but it's because Beatrice has never eaten ice cream. She doesn't know what it tastes like. So I'm wondering then if she, at that moment, realized Bojack is just plain lying to her instead of actually thinking she's there because of her mental health, and she decided on that answer to keep Bojack thinking she's still imagining it but can't help feeling sad over realizing all that has been lost and where she really is.
It's not impossible, but it's more head canon than anything. Not really enough evidence to support it. Beatrice could've just pictured something else that tasted good and substituted that. Personally, I saw the ice cream as the ultimate dream fulfillment, since it was something Beatrice was constantly told she couldn't have, but finally got it, but that's just as much head canon.
Iosif I I agree with you, she often has moments going in and out of recollection. She had no idea who her own son was and then within seconds she remembered him He was able to trick her into believing that she was somewhere else by using her memories, but you’re correct, she has no memory of what ice cream taste like, so when asked the question her brain is searching for the answer and it is blank. I wouldn’t say she realized that Bojack is “tricking” her, I would say it takes her out of the visual environment that Bojack is setting for her and takes her out of her memories and brings her back to her new homeostasis state brought on by dementia so she is no longer In her “happy place” she’s alone.
This video was actually the most eye opening out of the rest of them this actually does make A LOT of sense. Please please please make more videos like this for BoJack Horseman. Maybe the other seasons or characters (like Todd) connect to stuff like this and that causes him to be the way he is? This was 10/10 but graphics and audio could be better.
Every time I see this episode and I have seen it a lot, I can’t help but cry.
You did a great job with this video, this whole episode made me cry during all of it.
God DAMN dude these videos are wonderful. This was my absolute favorite episode, and you connected dots I didn't and made it even more amazing. I need to go re watch it now.
The Beatrice episodes in s4 scarred me.
God this was such an incredible episode, great analysis.
"you cant let your womanly emotions consume you you don't want to end up like your mother now do you" DAMN that sounds exactly like my dad, oh boy this is scary, and the worst part about all of this is he acts so much like the stereotypical 1950s conservative father who's emotionally/mentally manipulative and abusive its so alike.
Great video! Could you possibly examine the reoccurring theme of having a baby in the show? There’s been a lot of characters who seem obsessed with the notion of not/having a family- namely:
-Hollyhock and her search for her birth mother
-Beatrice and her unwillingness to have an abortion
-Diane and her abortion (remember her last line in Brap Brap Pew Pew: “everyone loves a baby!”)
-Princess Carolyn and her need to be a mother
-BoJack’s wish to have stable relationships in his life (seen in his desire to pursue deeper meanings in his affairs with PC, Ana Spanikopita, Wanda, and Gina)
These moments seem disconnected, but perhaps you could find something?
I LOVED YOUR BOJACK CONTENT.
Can't wait for the next season to be released and see more of your vids!
I always thought the scratched faces and the blank faces were just dementia, after all, that whole episode was a hallucination.
Nice job in the Clone Wars, maybe you should be spending more time practicing blaster bolt deflection with your lightsaber instead of watching BH
the sound when the shadow of her mother apears is just so aaahhhhh this show squich you emotionally to the extreme
Dude you are awesome.. these analysis are my favorite videos.
And once more... I cried a little. That episode is just so so painful.
Love your explanation. Watched this episode and the one of Mr. Peanutbutter's happiness, it was just splendid interpretation.
Bojacks relationship with his mom fucking kills me.
I went into Bojack expecting just a sarcastic comedy show. Boy, was I wrong and I couldn't be happier.
"To try to stop our fears we end up creating what we sought to destroy"
Forgot where this quote came from but it is very true. There were times I would try to take extreme precautions to stop people from leaving out of my life, but all it did was make me look horrible enough to make them leave faster. Never take someone elses faults as your future.....
YO MAYNE. I CANT SAY IT ENOUGH. YOUR ANALYSIS OF THIS SHOW IS ON POINT. I LOVE YOUR WORK AND I HAVE SUBB'D KEEP IT UP!
That episode made me cry a little
Freaking awesome analysis, dude.
This is an amazing, brilliant analysis. I love this video.
This episode made so many people forgive Henrietta of her sins I just wish butterscotch had an episode to show his backstory
Beatrice and Bojack perfectly depict the cycle of continuous abuse that happens in families. Parents have trauma and don’t know how to deal with it so they project that trauma on their kids which it then continues. It takes a lot to break sadly.... this show showed that journey too well in my opinion
Excellent analysis!
I would also like to notice that throughout her memories, there is a blurry vignette present in the entire episode on the edges of the screen. This effect gets blurrier the more significant and/or recent the memory is. In the memory where her stuff is being burned, you can't see the edges of the screen very clearly at all. Notice how 4:57, her conversation with Bojack around 2007/2008 (when The Bojack Horseman Show premiered), it's VERY blurry and appears to fade in and out of blurriness, creating a woozy effect.
I really enjoyed your thoughts on the scratched out faces! I was looking at it as those people betrayed her in some way: sleeping with her husband or throwing away belongings that meant so much to her. Yes, Butterscotch betrayed her too but she was willing to continue to deal with him and she's afraid of losing him (like you said). Anyway, you gave me another way of looking at it.
Great job. Really liking your content.
This really got me and I felt really sad For Beatrice 😭😭😭