This was masterfully created very subtle answer, yet if you explore it you will find the truth. just like the entire episode of Umineko series. This whole VN is a masterpiece
Old comment but yeah, probably only rewarding if you take time and actually try to solve the mysteries yourself jotting down notes and stuff, but probably the most rewarding experience in any VN. Its such a simple way of rewarding players who actually understood the game, and which is probably at the same time why it doesnt resonate with people who just "read" the whole thing without thinking anything through. Biggest gripe with a lot of mystery fiction especially ones targeted for an average audience is that there really is no mystery to solve because the solution is given to you as you find the clues needed to solve that specific case. Further more, the main character usually just solves it on the spot after getting said evidence giving you no time to actually solve the case yourself (or is so blatantly obvious what happened that its barely a mystery at that point). I think Ryukishi really took to heart the criticisms he got from HIgurashi about how it doesnt follow the Knox commandments and its not really a mystery, and fixed the issues, but at the same time kind of flipped it on its head. I just cant stop appreciating this game even after so many years after playing it. I remember taking two playthroughs through the question arcs before even touching the answer arcs, and felt extremely rewarded with this very specific moment of the reveals.
So here's how each game went down in layman's terms: *Episode 1* - 1st Twilight: Shannon faked her death with Hideyoshi's cooperation. (The corpse that cannot return to earth returns to illusions.) - 2nd Twilight: Kanon lied about the locked door. (A chain of illusions can only hold back illusions.) - 4th Twilight: Kinzo was dead all along. (Let the man of illusions go to where he belongs.) - 5th Twilight: Kanon faked his death with Nanjo's help. (The witch and stake of illusions can pierce naught but illusions.) - 6th-8th Twilight: Maria was tricked into thinking the room was locked. (Illusions are the blind girl's song. Illusion of a closed room.) *Episode 2* - 1st Twilight: Rosa lied about the chapel being locked. (The gold truth locks the lock of illusions.) - 2nd Twilight: Shannon killed Jessica and her "Kanon" persona. (Illusions who have fulfilled their roles don't leave a corpse.) - 4th-6th Twilight: Shannon locked the door and killed everyone in the room, herself included. (No one would dispute that a coffin is a closed room.) - 7th-8th Twilight: Before her suicide, Shannon killed Nanjo and Kumasawa; the other servants lied about it being Kanon. (No illusion can create a corpse.) *Episode 3* - 1st Twilight: Shannon was the first corpse found, and Kanon was the last. Shkanon moved themselves while the others went around the ring. (In a closed room ring, the beginning and the end overlap.) - 2nd Twilight: Shkanon killed Rosa and Maria. (No falsehoods in their final moments as told.) - 4th-6th Twilight: The victims either shot each other or were killed by Shkanon. (No falsehoods in their final moments as told.) - 7th-8th Twilight: Shkanon killed them and staked them after death. (The obvious culprit wields a mutable blade.) *Episode 4* - 1st Twilight: Most of the story was made up; Shkanon likely went wild with the gun. (Tales woven by the golden truth return to illusions.) - 2nd Twilight: More lies. Shkanon likely shot George and Jessica with Genji's help. (Tales woven by the golden truth return to illusions.) - 4th-8th Twilight: Shannon shot everyone, then herself, dropping the gun into the well. (Silent corpses, adorned by fiction.) - 9th Twilight: Bombs go off. Everyone dies. (When fiction is shut up inside a catbox, it becomes truth.)
The manga adaptation of the scene flat out displays the "secrets" here. The corrections are Episode 2: - 7th-8th Twilight: Genji killed Nanjo and Kumasawa, and the others lied about it. Episode 3: - 2nd Twilight: Eva and Rosa argue about the gold. Eva shoves Rosa into the fence killing her by accident and then strangles Maria to keep her quiet. - 4th-6th Twilight: Kyrie and Rudolf are shot by Hideyoshi, with Kyrie killing Hideyoshi before she dies. (SO MANY falsehoods in their final moments as told) - 7th-8th Twilight: Eva drugs their coffee, then strangles Kraus and Natsuhi while they're asleep Who... am I? - You're a bomb!
Jake Reid For the 4-6th twilights of episode 3, it would make more sense if Eva killed Kyrie and Rudolf, then Kyrie killed Hideyoshi in retaliation (her would was in the stomach, not immediately fatal) I know this is an old comment, but I did want to offer that up as reasoning
@@circle3565 i think when they say no falsehoods they mean there is no deaths that are not physical human deaths that leave actual corpses. Illusions to illusions, or falsehoods means someone did not physically die whio appeared in the fantasy to physical die. This happens to Kanon a lot, especially when Shannon lives longer than he does for now obvious reasons.
Yasu/Beatrice are certainly the provocateurs, but there's such a wealth of motivation in the family all she needs to do is throw out the apple of discord.
Red declarations on Shannon and Kanon's locations and deaths define them as distinctly unique personalities for the logic of this game, even if they share a body, so the same would go for Yasu and Beatrice. Knox 10th wouldn't apply because they don't disguise as separate characters, they ARE separate characters. Dine's 11th would apply to Shannon and Kanon, Knox 1st would apply to Yasu. If Knox 2nd doesn't apply to Beatrice, she's still too obvious a villain for a mystery.
If anyone wants to know, the bgm that plays at the beginning and after Will finishes breaking down the Witch's illusion is named, "Goddess Gardena" and the bgm that plays during the breakdown of the Witch's illusion is named, "Golden Nocturne".
Damn! I finally find yesterday “Goddess Gardena” after an insane investigation. Is annoying to read ur comment. I could have known this BGM before >:/ Anyway, thanks for said us that this BGMs are Goddess Gardena and Golden Nocturne.
Correction. The statement is simply: "6 people: Kinzo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Gohda, and Kumasawa are dead!" The definition of dead is not explained (however, the action of being declared dead is quite possibly the correct answer.) EP 7 implies that the action of one being dead means that their love for one character has died. [blue]Shannon and Kanon are not the same, they are two different people in one body. At the time of Battler's rescue, Kanon became Shannon.[/blue]
Did anyone know that all of Clair's sprites have Beatrice's face on them? That mean Clair has Beatrice's troll faces, the same goes for the pc version.
I could die with no regrets if Shaft made an anime adaptation of Umineko. Berserk getting a proper adaptation and Hunter x Hunter manga finishing in my lifetime are the only other things on my checklist.
YaShKannonTricers vs. RosaTricers... this battle will never end. I'm re-reading the novels and while trying to disprove YaShKannonTrice found out I can't. Just finished #01 though but it was my hope since #03 and #04 are a real mess and we SHOULD find an answer here at this point. The real truth is: detective novels are full of disguises and "cheap" tricks and we never complained. We already knew Ryukishi like this trick (ShMion) and were fooled by the character design, which makes such a trick look impossible, but it's not.
Ryukishi07 also confirmed that Confession of the Golden Witch is canon in an interview with APGNation from a few years back (to quote: "Thus, all of the episode of Sayo that appeared in the EP8 manga is the official answer to the world of Umineko," meaning Confession doesn't just apply to the manga). I helped my fiancee at the time get in contact with him through a coworker of hers, translated some interview questions into Japanese, then translated his answers back into English. You can find it here: apgnation.com/articles/2015/01/29/13689/say-red-interview-ryukishi07 It's also available on wiki.whentheycry.org.
supeeer late answer but its implied battler in the first four games never sees shannon and kanon in the same place, also they have the same facial structure and everything :/
@@leogonok2042 The biggest indicator I found was whenever Kanon/Shannon would go to play cards with the cousins, it was always only one of the two, but never both at the same time.
The explain how did Kanon disappear? If the red truths are interpreted in a way in which Shannon and Kanon are not the same person, that also makes it impossible for Kanon to save Battler.
Metatronflaren It was said that he no longer “existed” in the room. This is because Yasu swapped over to a different personality. It’s not quite multiple personalities, but bordering on it.
[red]It did not state bodies, but people.[/red] Please try not to consider the identites as facades as Yasu genuinely believed in the concepts that s/he really was three people. [red]Kumasawa and Gohda tended to the desires of Yasu so[/red][blue]therefore two uniforms as well as two sets of keys are in place, it is these two sets of keys that make the large loop in Ep3 possible. When Shannon is dead, love for George is dead. When Kanon's dead love for Jessica is dead.[/blue]
From literally 11 years ago, but IMO the most intuitive way to think of it is that "people" are like "characters (in a play, movie, etc)." There are N characters in the "story" of the Rokkenjima incident, and some of those characters are "performed" by the same actor.
I'm currently working my way through EP1 (and the others) again to try and tackle the stories. Managed to also stumble across a very detailed second playthrough analysis by two people that have really helped me understand a lot more of the story and provided really insightful observations at tinyurl . com /qgsda6d . In addition do look up and read the bonus material "Our Confessions" which explains quite a bit about how the general modus operandi of the murders and storytelling.
Why would the adults know from the start? And Shannon and Kanon were the start and end of the chain. i.e [blue]Shannon, after constructing the murder scenes of the other servants, hid kanon's keys, lay down in the parlour. After being discovered, s/he exited via the window they broke to get in and entered the church as Kanon, using his keys.[/blue] Episode 5 is an anomaly, Erika, someone who is dead, is alive. Erika does not acknowledge that the two of them are there but rather we are shown
This is the scene where they tell us who is the culprit. It made to only those who played through the games (especially episode 7) can understand this whole thing. Sorry but I won't tell that big spoiler in a comment.
I hate to spoil it, but when he says illusions to illusions, that means there's something insanely suspicious about the details he refers to, the lock in the first game, second twilight for example, earth to earth usually means nothing too suspicious. When he says both, that means the person's really dead, only *spoil!* they weren't dead when we were lead to believe, they faked their death time by driving the stakes in different places. *spoil*
I haven't played any of the games so don't stab me for the question I'm going to ask... What does he mean by saying "Illusions to illusions, earth to earth"?
YAMInoARTS When he says “Illusions to illusions” he’s referring to tricks the killer (green-haired lady up there) employed to make the player believe something that was actually a lie. When he says “Earth to earth” he’s talking about things that actually did happen and were properly, or almost properly, represented in game. Using both, he refers to when deaths really did happen, but their circumstances were far different than the fiction the player is told
A little late, but "illusions to illusions" means something in the fantasy, whether people dying, or doors being locked, or corpses existing, didn't actually occur. For example, 4th game, first twilight. The answer is no one actually died at that time. All the poeple in the dinner hall agree to play the culprit's murder mystery game in exchange for the gold.Then, the illusion of Kinzo murdering the 6 was fabricated over that. Earth to Earth means everyone who appeared in the fantasy to die, did. Their corpses are actual corpses. The Fantasy leads to the result.
ok but Rosa is 35 she was 15 when she met Kuwadorian Beatrice so Kuwadorian Beatrice died 20 years ago but Shannon is 19 I feel like the explanation is really simple but I just don't get it
@@Ribbotsaur The point is more how could she have a child one year after she died? The solution to this is that it wasn't exactly 20 years ago, just approximately 20 years ago. For example you would say January 2000 was 18 years ago, even though it's closer to 19 (it's November 2018 if anyone's reading this in the future)
That really is true, only Ryukishi (and maybe Sayako Ohara, the voice actress, since she doesn't actually have to know) knows the real truth. We can only speculate as to what happened. However, there is a consistent, plausible and coherent theory that works in all 5 games and that goes along with the red truth, which is also clued to be the truth, other than the Shkanon theory which is a controversial issue due to many red statements that make it impossible for them to be the same person.
After Erika sealed the rooms, she needed to lock them completely, correct? But in reality she couldn't use Cornelia and Gertrude since they are magical beings. From a realistic perspective, Erika would have to seal the windows herself. Before she managed to seal the windows, Kanon got out of the room through the window. That's why he seems to be there in the first place. He later on left to place the letter and wait to exchange places with Battler.
Yes! Very nice! I usually say that [blue]Shannon "killed" Kanon.[/blue] but as Erika was the killer, the idea of Erika killing Kanon is definately a very viable answer. Thank you.
Have you read "Our confessions" though? Basically, it states that the whole murder game is a fake "prank" by Yasu to challenge Battler (That in the end goes horribly wrong and everyone dies, but that is for yourself to theorize about). All the people from the Ushiromiya family, except Battler, are in on it, so there is no problem with Kanon and Shannon being at two places at the same time as the rest of the family can provide alibies for it. You should read it, it provides a bunch of clues.
Correction: There is proof that Kannon and Shannon are both different people and the 'Three Personalities' theory that says Kannon, Shannon, and Yasu are actually false since in the third game Ushiromiya Lion exists along with Shannon and Kannon who are actually there too. For the logic error room when people say 'Kannon became Shannon' because he stops 'existing' you have to look at the point where Erika actually used a shotgun to fire a bullet in the closet thinking Battler was in there.
sync94 But we still don’t see Shannon and Kanon together? Besides, it’s explicitly said by Shannon that she and Kanon come from another world (Beato, not Lion), and that they’re confused. Since they are technically the same person, but from different worlds, they count as two so long as Shannon/Kanon are stuck in Lion’s World, but in the rest of the worlds they are one with Lion/Beato
Ryukishi has deceived us all. He has constructed the greatest murder mystery novel and is the most brilliant writer I have ever seen. Thanks to a friend, I was able to reach the REAL TRUTH of the series. Who/How/ and Why dunnit. I REALLY urge everyone, if you want to enjoy the story, re-read along with the Van Dine rules that are specifically mentioned. That way you can reach the REAL truth and figure out that someone else is the culprit and: (RED/) SHKANON THEORY IS A LIE (RED/)
I see, I see... I don't play the games, but I read the manga (and it's taking forever). Thanks for telling me this! 8D Ima give you a kisss~~! -3- Muuuuuwahhh~~~!
After all, we are looking for solutions to these closed room murders, and we highly depend on the detective's perspective. Erika saw Shannon and Kanon as two different human beings with each their own body. If Erika's perspective is magical, we should only see one of them. However, she is showing the realistic perspective of things in EP5 and saw how they are two completely different people. If that perspective is a lie, then we can't trust anything in EP5
SFGK In the manga, it’s shown that she actually never saw both at the same time. In the games (5 and 6) we only got Battler’s view on the game board or a few others, never Erika’s. She never acknowledges that they’re both there.
I never read this. What's this? I only know that at last Beato came to duel with Erika. And Battler and Beatrice happily ever after... Did I miss something?
EP 2 Red statements regarding Shannon and Kanon having two different bodies, being two completely different people as well. "6 people(which also refers to individual corpses and/or bodies, not personalities), specifically Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Kumasawa, Kinzo, and Gohda are dead!" You can also look for the EP6 Logic error that provides countless red truths stating that Shannon and Kanon are not the same, I suggest you check all the red truths in the umineko wiki page, it is stated many times
SFGK It isn’t specified for game 2 that people means bodies and not personalities. That only applies to later cases, such as when Erika asks for confirmation of that in the 6th game. Also, if they aren’t the same person, how did Kanon escape the room? The room Shannon was in had no seal, but the one Kanon was in did. We are only told the names of the people in the unsealed room, and are told that “everyone else” was in the sealed room. This doesn’t specify who, exactly, was in there.
Exactly there was no evidence presented throughout ALL episodes that Shannon = Kanon, only circumstantial evidence allowing for the possibility. There were no clues pointing it to it as such.
The red truths contradict that. The red truths that everyone is in the rooms were made after the red truth that the rooms were sealed. It doesn't matter that we never saw Erika actually seal the windows, we didn't see it in game 5 either and it is accepted. You cannot accept some red truths, and dismiss others so easily. Cornelia and Gertrude are just metaphorical representations of Erika sealing the room.
well I don't see how calling everything an illusion without at least explain it makes it a valid argument, I'm in Debate and if I kept saying that their facts are illusions where would that get me? And besides people actually died, how could all their deaths possibly be called illusions, it doesn't make sense, you don't just say everything's an illusion and somehow that works that's not how arguments are formatted.
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There's no right answer, each theory cannot be disproved nor proved, I'm sure something like battlertrice or gohdatrice could be possible with enough word twists. So there's really no point discussing about the answer, for there is none. At least not untill R07 gives us something like the book of ultimate truth, which won't happen. Even then, considering that each and every theory has plotholes (be it thanks to Knox, Van Dyne, Reds or Detective perspective), it would only further prove that R07 has contradicted himself in one part or the other of the VN regardless of the answer. So my theory is that not even R07 has a flawless answer and that he's himself in a logic error. Which can also explain why umineko ended the way it did.
i agree, i also feels like r07 just made an excuse because he himself cannot find the truth lol. some people feels they solved the cat box just because they watch some guy's video here on youtube about the theory of rosatrice. But any theory that made up, Shakanontrice, Rosatrice, jessicatrice blahblahtrice, all of these are cannot be proven to be true but great series overall i really love this one
I shall not agree. Everything makes perfect sense with ShKanontrice. Everything else either is denied by a red or Knox 8th. R07 did confirm this theory in an interview, btw.
Even Shkanontrice has contradictions. Any theory has them. Regardless of what R07 says there are major flaws in the writing, making it so that it requires twisting the phrasing of those reds so much in order to make them fit any theory. It's no longer making the theory fit the facts but vice versa. And don't get me started on Van Dine and detective perspective, if you apply them to the full extent together with the reds and knoxs the VN becomes either unsolvable or something so absurd to be called a mistery. And thus there's no point on discussing the answer for there is none.
Okay. Knox 10th "It is forbidden for a character to disguise themselves as another without any clues" and the Shkanontrice theory, that combined with Van Dine 14th "The method of murder, and the means of detecting it, must be be rational and scientific. That is to say, pseudo-science and purely imaginative and speculative devices are not to be tolerated in the roman policier." which discards any magic ways for the clues to be presented (If you stretch that one you can even request the reader to be able to solve the case using only detective perspective). Then there's also the prologue of ep.5 where Shannon and Kanon are seen together in the same room with detective Erika and since "The detective novel must have a detective in it; and a detective is not a detective unless he detects." (VD. 6) It's just not possible for Erika to not catch up on that, it would be completely disregarding . Not to mention that umineko as a whole goes against VD. 3. And as I said before, this only applies if you use the four main sources of clues. If you don't use them, then any answer becomes possible and as such discussing them is moot since any could be the right one without any means to ultimately prove it above the other theories.
I hate the official solution. It's ok from a narrative perspective, but totally butchers the mistery. Every scenario is a "lol, it wasn't locked after all!", "everyone was an accomplice", and "technically Shkannon counts as three people, one person, and no people at the same time and can bypass every red statement ever." It also breaks a lot of Knox and Van Dine rules, and doesn't even try to solve EP5.
Read ep.8 manga, Erika solved everything in ep.5 and 6 game. Umineko doesn't follow Van Dine, and even Dlanor said Knox is just a tool. There're many mystery novels that doesn't follow it. Confession of the golden witch also expand and describe everything for who, how, and why.
Maybe, but some of it can be reasoned out. The siblings being bribed by the true culprit isn't actually surprising, multiple times in the early Episodes we were told that they REALLY needed money, immediately. Some of the details, like in Episode 1 inside the shed, only Shannon's body wasn't inspected. Or the chain of Episode 1 where Eva/Hideyoshi dies: Battler's inspection (which per the red would be absolute) of the chain points towards something amiss about it being truly "locked". Or Kanon's "corpse" attacking the servants in Episode 2. If we're not to believe in 'magic', then the alternative is that Gohda and Kumasawa were killed inside the same room and that Genji and Shannon were the only witnesses. Ergo, they are the culprit. And later down the line, we learn the Kinzo is dead in every game, so when Shannon and Genji went to see him about his will in Ep. 2 that was actually a lie. If you can catch the smaller detail, then it'll help unravel the mystery of each Episode.
The ones that break me are: "Earth to earth. ... The obvious culprit wields a mutable blade. " and "Earth to earth. ... No falsehoods in their final moments as told."
Featherine promised that the answers would be given only to the ones who thought about it, and she kept that promise... It's like Will is reading only the final solution of a math problem. If you don't know the procedure, you will find it useless... but once you reached your own answer, you can use it to confirm whether it's right or wrong.
It's a pure answer check. You only know if you are right or wrong: if you're wrong, you understand nothing, but, if you are right, you understand everything. Though, I guess regardless of what you understand, you get this hype scene, lol.
EP1 and EP2 are tales written by Yasu, while EP3 to EP6 are written by Tohya. These gameboards and the events of Rokkenjima Prime are two different things. The illusions referred to mostly refer to the adornments of the truth given in the narrative to deceive the reader, which Will sees through and explains in a cryptic manner that makes sense when you understand what happened in the game
To be fair, Willard's working off what Battler had already found and seen in the first four games. Willard's also far more experienced, and Battler didn't REALLY start playing until the third game, and Beato messed that one up. Combined with his severe emotionial complex (try accusing your loved ones of being heartless murdering bastards) and once Battler really gets on a role, he gets it pretty fast as well.
But it's red truth so he can incompetent in one way and still be considered "incompetent" also it was stated early before he knew what he was doing so it's like calling a toddler incompetent for not being able to run when it's barely started to walk
Bear in mind, her corpse washing up on the shore etc is still a valid theory. But Battler also said "Even if you join us...." Before the infamous red statement. Therefore without Erika counted as a person (IE, dead before the start of the game) there are 16 people on the island.
9 years later but I want to add a point : there is 17 bodies and persons on the island, Kanon and Shannon being two persons for one body, and Erika being a body without a person, that's why it's confusing at first and how she reaches her truth in the 6th game : if she was alive she would be the 18th person but she isn't alive so "even if you join us" aka even if we knew about your body, there is still 17 people aka you were already dead and therefore doesn't count as a person
@@sha1060 It can also be there are 18 humans/bodies on the island, 16 living bodies, Dead Kinzo, Dead Erika. 17 people on the island at the start. One human has two personas of "humans' Shannon and Kanon. BEATRICE isn't counted at the start as person, or a human, but as an abstraction or Title until Shannon or Kanon "dies".
Well, 8 years later, but if you still don't know it for some reason, the manga has a more straight foward explanation in this part and says everything in a more clear way
I know this is an 8 year old comment, but for the rest who are interested: Earth to earth - Happened as presented, minus the magic (e.g. while Rosa was impaled on the fence and Maria was strangled, it wasn't Beatrice's doing) Illusions to illusions - False narrative was presented (e.g. Gohda, George, and Shannon weren't murdered by goat demons that magically snuck into a room locked from the inside, nor did a human culprit murder them then somehow escape a locked room; it was Shannon who murdered the other two then committed suicide.) Earth to earth, illusions to illusions - Mix of truth and lies (e.g. While Nanjo and Kumasawa did have their throats slashed open, it was by Genji and not by a mysterious third party) Paraphrased from the wiki: Illusions to illusions. ...The corpse that cannot return to earth returns to illusions. - While the Shannon personality was "dead", Yasu's body was very much alive. Illusions to illusions. ...A chain of illusions can only trap illusions. - The locked room murder relies on there being a chain, and since there was no chain, there was no locked room murder. Illusions to illusions. ...Let the man of illusions go to where he belongs. - Kinzo was already dead. Illusions to illusions. ...The witch and stake of illusions can pierce naught but illusions. - The stake was next to Kanon, it was never actually shown piercing him, thus it never happened. Illusions to illusions. ...Illusions are the blind girl's song. Illusion of a closed room- Yasu was unaccounted for, so it seemed like the servants were killed with no apparent culprit as everyone else was locked up in Kinzo's study. Illusions to illusions. ...The gold truth locks the lock of illusions. - No lock. Illusions to illusions. ...Illusions who have fulfilled their role do not even leave a corpse behind. - Kanon doesn't really exist, so he left no body behind as it belongs to Yasu. Earth to earth. ...No one would dispute that a coffin is a closed room. - The killer was in the "closed room" thus it isn't a closed room murder, but rather an open and shut case (sorry). Earth to earth. Illusions to illusions. ...No illusion can create a corpse.- Kanon is an illusion, thus could not have killed anyone. Illusions to illusions. ...In the closed room ring, the end and the beginning overlap. - Shannon faked her death and escaped out the window, changed into Kanon, and faked the final death in the chapel, hence overlap between first and last. Earth to earth. ...No falsehoods in their final moments as told. - Self explanatory. Earth to earth. ...No falsehoods in their final moments as told. - Self explanatory. Earth to earth. ...The obvious culprit wields a mutable blade. - It was obvious that Eva killed them. Illusions to illusions. ...Tales woven by the gold truth return to illusions. - Everything was a scripted lie Earth to earth. Illusions to illusions. ...Silent corpses, adorned by fiction. - The existence of bodies doesn't prove the existence of magical beings. Earth to earth. Illusions to illusions. ...When fiction is shut up inside a cat box, it becomes truth. - There is nobody alive to prove the narrative wrong. Illusions...to illusions. ...The promised reaper lowers the curtains on the tale regardless of the witch's will. - Willard exposes Yasu as the culprit in all of the tales.
For those who haven’t read the manga, here is an explanation of all the cases. Obviously it’s spoilers. The number first represents the game and second will rep the twilight. 1.1 Eva and Hideyoshi were bribed by the culprit. Kanon does not exist, so neither does his body. 1.2 The servants lied about the chain being set. 1.4 Kinzo isn’t among the 16 on the island. 1.5. Nanjo was bribed & lied about the autopsy. Kanon does not exist & Sayo was lying. 1.6-1.8 - The culprit had a key. Maria followed the instructions of them. 2.1 Rosa was bribed and the servants were also. They planned the “”closed room”” beforehand. 2.2 Kanon does not exist. 2.4-6 Sayo was the killer, who was in the room, as “Shannon.” 2.7 Genji did it. 3.1 “Shannon” constructed the closed rooms, the body found at the beginning was a lie, and after, she became Kanon and staged his demise. 3.2 exactly as the game suggests. Without the magic, of course. 3.4-6 Eva and Hideyoshi got bribed, they got rid of Kyrie and Rudolf and then Kyrie, still clinging alive, got rid of Hideyoshi. Basically, she didn’t meet her end instantly. 3.7-8 Eva did it. (No surprise) 4.1 everyone was bribed except Battler. Almost everything in CH4 is make believe; fiction. I apologise if I worded anything poorly or got the twilights mixed up.
(Part 2) [red]We are not shown EP5 from Erika's perspective as we usually are from Battler.[/red] [blue]Shannon and Kanon are next to each other in front of Erika in the sense that both personalities are active.[/blue] How does the love thing not work? Kanon represents Yasu's love for Jessica, Shannon is Yasu's love for George and Beatrice is Yasu's love for Battler.
It wasn't proven that Shkanon was a lie, people seem to think Ryukishi lied. But that wouldn't fit at all with the idea of using love to uncover the truth. (ie Yasu's love for Battler) But regardless of what the definite truth was, every theory is valid, which is what the point of Ep 8 was. But Ep 7 almost proves Shkanon and Shkanontrice.
They're all very cleverly worded. For instance the Chapel riddle (WARNING IF YOU DON'T WANT THE ANSWER SPOILED STOP READING NOW) "Illusions to Illusions. The Gold Truth locks the lock of illusions." Everyone simply assumes the chapel is locked. (Gold truth means human truth. Everyone accepting something as true, therefore making it true. For instance Kinzo's burned body.) But it is never stated in red that the chapel is locked at all. Go back to that scene and verify, it's such a troll move lol
@@MentoDaSheep Yep, it basically just means "people lied or pretended it was true because they were bribed." This entire sequence makes perfect sense once you learn to "translate" it (like how "Earth to Earth" basically means that the thing depicted actually physically happened, while "Illusions to Illusions" means it's a total fabrication - or both in situations where it's a mix of the two). Or the "mutable blade" referring to Eva committing some of the murders in Episode 3.
I would love to get my hands on these sprites. Is there anywhere I can download them? I've checked, but the download sources that I have found have only had episode 1-4 sprites, not episode 5-8 sprites. Any help would be appreciated, thanks.
[Red] Battler was the detective, not Erika. Besides, even if she did see them, there is no hints that she actually noted that one of them was different or oddly familiar, even if they did look familiar, they are brother and sister.
[Blue]Five keys have been acknowledged, as are five people. But it is never stated that those five are separate bodies, not identities! There's nothing strange about one of the Servants having a spare key, particularly since Yasu is clumsy![/Blue] As for six people- don't make me laugh: [Blue]The number of corpses is not confirmed as six! Only the number of people killed! At this point, body-person link has not been established in Red! Two identities could still refer to two 'people'![/Blue]
Plz upload Battler vs. Bern and Bern vs.Lambda battles.I'm sure alot of people want to see those but no one have the full battle up on youtube. plz and thank u
I am more impressed with Willard intelligence than L's intelligence.
This was masterfully created
very subtle answer, yet if you explore it you will find the truth. just like the entire episode of Umineko series.
This whole VN is a masterpiece
Old comment but yeah, probably only rewarding if you take time and actually try to solve the mysteries yourself jotting down notes and stuff, but probably the most rewarding experience in any VN. Its such a simple way of rewarding players who actually understood the game, and which is probably at the same time why it doesnt resonate with people who just "read" the whole thing without thinking anything through. Biggest gripe with a lot of mystery fiction especially ones targeted for an average audience is that there really is no mystery to solve because the solution is given to you as you find the clues needed to solve that specific case. Further more, the main character usually just solves it on the spot after getting said evidence giving you no time to actually solve the case yourself (or is so blatantly obvious what happened that its barely a mystery at that point). I think Ryukishi really took to heart the criticisms he got from HIgurashi about how it doesnt follow the Knox commandments and its not really a mystery, and fixed the issues, but at the same time kind of flipped it on its head. I just cant stop appreciating this game even after so many years after playing it. I remember taking two playthroughs through the question arcs before even touching the answer arcs, and felt extremely rewarded with this very specific moment of the reveals.
So here's how each game went down in layman's terms:
*Episode 1*
- 1st Twilight: Shannon faked her death with Hideyoshi's cooperation. (The corpse that cannot return to earth returns to illusions.)
- 2nd Twilight: Kanon lied about the locked door. (A chain of illusions can only hold back illusions.)
- 4th Twilight: Kinzo was dead all along. (Let the man of illusions go to where he belongs.)
- 5th Twilight: Kanon faked his death with Nanjo's help. (The witch and stake of illusions can pierce naught but illusions.)
- 6th-8th Twilight: Maria was tricked into thinking the room was locked. (Illusions are the blind girl's song. Illusion of a closed room.)
*Episode 2*
- 1st Twilight: Rosa lied about the chapel being locked. (The gold truth locks the lock of illusions.)
- 2nd Twilight: Shannon killed Jessica and her "Kanon" persona. (Illusions who have fulfilled their roles don't leave a corpse.)
- 4th-6th Twilight: Shannon locked the door and killed everyone in the room, herself included. (No one would dispute that a coffin is a closed room.)
- 7th-8th Twilight: Before her suicide, Shannon killed Nanjo and Kumasawa; the other servants lied about it being Kanon. (No illusion can create a corpse.)
*Episode 3*
- 1st Twilight: Shannon was the first corpse found, and Kanon was the last. Shkanon moved themselves while the others went around the ring. (In a closed room ring, the beginning and the end overlap.)
- 2nd Twilight: Shkanon killed Rosa and Maria. (No falsehoods in their final moments as told.)
- 4th-6th Twilight: The victims either shot each other or were killed by Shkanon. (No falsehoods in their final moments as told.)
- 7th-8th Twilight: Shkanon killed them and staked them after death. (The obvious culprit wields a mutable blade.)
*Episode 4*
- 1st Twilight: Most of the story was made up; Shkanon likely went wild with the gun. (Tales woven by the golden truth return to illusions.)
- 2nd Twilight: More lies. Shkanon likely shot George and Jessica with Genji's help. (Tales woven by the golden truth return to illusions.)
- 4th-8th Twilight: Shannon shot everyone, then herself, dropping the gun into the well. (Silent corpses, adorned by fiction.)
- 9th Twilight: Bombs go off. Everyone dies. (When fiction is shut up inside a catbox, it becomes truth.)
The manga adaptation of the scene flat out displays the "secrets" here. The corrections are
Episode 2:
- 7th-8th Twilight: Genji killed Nanjo and Kumasawa, and the others lied about it.
Episode 3:
- 2nd Twilight: Eva and Rosa argue about the gold. Eva shoves Rosa into the fence killing her by accident and then strangles Maria to keep her quiet.
- 4th-6th Twilight: Kyrie and Rudolf are shot by Hideyoshi, with Kyrie killing Hideyoshi before she dies. (SO MANY falsehoods in their final moments as told)
- 7th-8th Twilight: Eva drugs their coffee, then strangles Kraus and Natsuhi while they're asleep
Who... am I?
- You're a bomb!
Jake Reid For the 4-6th twilights of episode 3, it would make more sense if Eva killed Kyrie and Rudolf, then Kyrie killed Hideyoshi in retaliation (her would was in the stomach, not immediately fatal) I know this is an old comment, but I did want to offer that up as reasoning
@@wolfywonder8480 but natsuhi and krauss was together in that house with Eva even after Rudolf, Kyrie, and Hideyoshi left
Spoiler that shit.
@@circle3565 i think when they say no falsehoods they mean there is no deaths that are not physical human deaths that leave actual corpses. Illusions to illusions, or falsehoods means someone did not physically die whio appeared in the fantasy to physical die. This happens to Kanon a lot, especially when Shannon lives longer than he does for now obvious reasons.
The messages of Umineko that I understand : 1) Without love, it cannot be seen. 2)People are riddles, and they want someone to solve them
Damn that second message is fire
Yasu/Beatrice are certainly the provocateurs, but there's such a wealth of motivation in the family all she needs to do is throw out the apple of discord.
God, I miss Umineko so damn much...
Time to reread it
3:51 God I just realized that the fucking game when you put it on auto PERFECTLY times his sword swing to the guitar solo
I missed the part before where they talked about the 1st game and how risky it was. Given our culprit, it really was.
Red declarations on Shannon and Kanon's locations and deaths define them as distinctly unique personalities for the logic of this game, even if they share a body, so the same would go for Yasu and Beatrice. Knox 10th wouldn't apply because they don't disguise as separate characters, they ARE separate characters. Dine's 11th would apply to Shannon and Kanon, Knox 1st would apply to Yasu. If Knox 2nd doesn't apply to Beatrice, she's still too obvious a villain for a mystery.
>Read this
>Try not to cry
>Fail
>FAIL HARD
It is never said that Erika cannot be tricked, despite being the detective. She is still human, and humans can be decieved by tricks.
If anyone wants to know, the bgm that plays at the beginning and after Will finishes breaking down the Witch's illusion is named, "Goddess Gardena" and the bgm that plays during the breakdown of the Witch's illusion is named, "Golden Nocturne".
Damn! I finally find yesterday “Goddess Gardena” after an insane investigation. Is annoying to read ur comment. I could have known this BGM before >:/
Anyway, thanks for said us that this BGMs are Goddess Gardena and Golden Nocturne.
One of the most beautiful scenes in Umineko.
Thank you for sharing it with us, kind sir.
Correction. The statement is simply:
"6 people: Kinzo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Gohda, and Kumasawa are dead!"
The definition of dead is not explained (however, the action of being declared dead is quite possibly the correct answer.)
EP 7 implies that the action of one being dead means that their love for one character has died.
[blue]Shannon and Kanon are not the same, they are two different people in one body.
At the time of Battler's rescue, Kanon became Shannon.[/blue]
Yes...Yasu/Beato is the real writer of this story, along with Battler.
Did anyone know that all of Clair's sprites have Beatrice's face on them? That mean Clair has Beatrice's troll faces, the same goes for the pc version.
幻は幻に。 約束された死神は、 魔女の意思 を問わずに、物語に幕を下ろす。
Yeah this is probably my favorite moment in the game, so hype man
He is the honored guest after all
1st game 5th twilight
Kanon faked his death?
Father, Son, Holy Spirit.
The promised reaper lowers the curtains on the tale regardless of the ****** will
AMEN !
Give us a Chiru anime by Ufotable/Shaft, already!
I could die with no regrets if Shaft made an anime adaptation of Umineko. Berserk getting a proper adaptation and Hunter x Hunter manga finishing in my lifetime are the only other things on my checklist.
If ufotable makes the anime imagine how much of the story/character development would be left out
@@thesandvitchman1234 as much as I like stay night yea you are right
Golden Nocturne. There is also a vocal version of this song in Rokkenjima in Love album.
Omg Will's seiyuu
YaShKannonTricers vs. RosaTricers... this battle will never end.
I'm re-reading the novels and while trying to disprove YaShKannonTrice found out I can't. Just finished #01 though but it was my hope since #03 and #04 are a real mess and we SHOULD find an answer here at this point.
The real truth is: detective novels are full of disguises and "cheap" tricks and we never complained. We already knew Ryukishi like this trick (ShMion) and were fooled by the character design, which makes such a trick look impossible, but it's not.
Ryukishi07 also confirmed that Confession of the Golden Witch is canon in an interview with APGNation from a few years back (to quote: "Thus, all of the episode of Sayo that appeared in the EP8 manga is the official answer to the world of Umineko," meaning Confession doesn't just apply to the manga). I helped my fiancee at the time get in contact with him through a coworker of hers, translated some interview questions into Japanese, then translated his answers back into English. You can find it here: apgnation.com/articles/2015/01/29/13689/say-red-interview-ryukishi07 It's also available on wiki.whentheycry.org.
Furthermore
Knox 10th
It is forbidden for a character to disguise themselves as another without any clues.
supeeer late answer but its implied battler in the first four games never sees shannon and kanon in the same place, also they have the same facial structure and everything :/
@@leogonok2042 The biggest indicator I found was whenever Kanon/Shannon would go to play cards with the cousins, it was always only one of the two, but never both at the same time.
第一のゲーム、第一の晩。園芸倉庫に、六人の死体
幻は幻に。土には帰れぬ骸が、幻に帰る
第一のゲーム、第二の晩。寄り添いし二人の骸は鎖で守られし密室に。
幻は幻に。幻の鎖は、幻しか閉じ込めない。
第一のゲーム、第四の晩。密室書斎の老当主は灼熱の窯の中に。
幻は幻に。幻の男は、あるべきところへ。
第一のゲーム、第五の晩。杭に胸を捧げし少年の最後。
幻は幻に。幻想と魔女の杭は、幻想しか貫けない。
第一のゲーム、第六、第七、第八の晩。歌う少女の密室に横たわる三人の骸。
幻は幻に。盲目なる少女が歌うは幻。密室幻想。
第二のゲーム、第一の晩。腹を刺されし六人は密室祈拝堂に。
幻は幻に。黄金の真実が、幻の錠を閉ざす。
第二のゲーム、第二の晩。寄り添いし二人は、死体さえも寄り添えない。
幻は幻に。役目を終えたる幻、骸さえも残せない。
第二のゲーム、第四、第五、第六の晩。夏妃の密室にて生き残りし者はなし。
土は土に。棺桶が密室であることに、疑問を挟む者はいない。
第二のゲーム、第七、第八の晩。赤き目の幻想に斬り殺されし二人。
土は土に。幻は幻に。幻に生み出せる骸はなし。
第三のゲーム、第一の晩。運鎖密室が繋ぎし、六人の骸。
幻は幻に。輪になる密室、終わりと始まりが、重なる。
第三のゲーム、第二の晩。薔薇庭園にて親子は骸を重ねる。
土は土に。語られし最後に、何の偽りもなし。
第三のゲーム、第四、第五、第六の晩。屋敷にて倒れし三人の骸。
土は土に。語られし最後に、何の偽りもなし。
第三のゲーム、第七、第八の晩。夫婦二人は東屋にて骸を晒す。
土は土に。明白なる犯人は、無常の刃を振るいたり。
第四のゲーム、第一の晩。食堂にて吹き荒れる虐殺の嵐。
幻は幻に。黄金の真実が紡ぎ出す物語は幻に帰る。
第四のゲーム、第二の晩。二人の若者は試練に挑み、共に果てる。
幻は幻に。黄金の真実が紡ぎ出す物語は幻に帰る。
第四のゲーム、第四、第五、第六、第七、第八の晩。迷亡者誰も生き残れわしない。
土は土に。幻は幻に。虚構に彩られし、物言わめ骸。
第四のゲーム、第九の晩。そして、誰も生き残れはしない。
土は土に。幻は幻に。虚構は猫箱に閉ざされことで、真実となる。
私は、だれ・・・・・？
幻は幻に。約束された死神は、魔女の意思を問わずに、物語に膜を下ろす。
But you are fotgetting the heart.
It is xaki's "goddess-gardena".
The explain how did Kanon disappear?
If the red truths are interpreted in a way in which Shannon and Kanon are not the same person, that also makes it impossible for Kanon to save Battler.
Metatronflaren It was said that he no longer “existed” in the room. This is because Yasu swapped over to a different personality. It’s not quite multiple personalities, but bordering on it.
I love it!!!!! please do the Bern vs lambda battleeeee
I found this amazing, but without context, most of these poetics verses sound very edgy omg
read umineko, it's not edgy at all, every "verse" is the answer to a puzzle
@@superfeel1275 i obviously read umineko otherwise i wouldn't have say "i found this amazing"
It really does, but by god with context the verses are epic imo. Love the coffin is a closed room line.
I love edgy chuuni Will
[red]It did not state bodies, but people.[/red] Please try not to consider the identites as facades as Yasu genuinely believed in the concepts that s/he really was three people. [red]Kumasawa and Gohda tended to the desires of Yasu so[/red][blue]therefore two uniforms as well as two sets of keys are in place, it is these two sets of keys that make the large loop in Ep3 possible. When Shannon is dead, love for George is dead. When Kanon's dead love for Jessica is dead.[/blue]
From literally 11 years ago, but IMO the most intuitive way to think of it is that "people" are like "characters (in a play, movie, etc)." There are N characters in the "story" of the Rokkenjima incident, and some of those characters are "performed" by the same actor.
I'm currently working my way through EP1 (and the others) again to try and tackle the stories. Managed to also stumble across a very detailed second playthrough analysis by two people that have really helped me understand a lot more of the story and provided really insightful observations at tinyurl . com /qgsda6d . In addition do look up and read the bonus material "Our Confessions" which explains quite a bit about how the general modus operandi of the murders and storytelling.
Why would the adults know from the start? And Shannon and Kanon were the start and end of the chain. i.e [blue]Shannon, after constructing the murder scenes of the other servants, hid kanon's keys, lay down in the parlour. After being discovered, s/he exited via the window they broke to get in and entered the church as Kanon, using his keys.[/blue]
Episode 5 is an anomaly, Erika, someone who is dead, is alive. Erika does not acknowledge that the two of them are there but rather we are shown
Is Will a poet? :)
Willar Huntigton Wright, also known as Steam Ship Van Dine was actually a real writer
This is the scene where they tell us who is the culprit. It made to only those who played through the games (especially episode 7) can understand this whole thing. Sorry but I won't tell that big spoiler in a comment.
I hate to spoil it, but when he says illusions to illusions, that means there's something insanely suspicious about the details he refers to, the lock in the first game, second twilight for example, earth to earth usually means nothing too suspicious. When he says both, that means the person's really dead, only *spoil!* they weren't dead when we were lead to believe, they faked their death time by driving the stakes in different places. *spoil*
I haven't played any of the games so don't stab me for the question I'm going to ask... What does he mean by saying "Illusions to illusions, earth to earth"?
YAMInoARTS When he says “Illusions to illusions” he’s referring to tricks the killer (green-haired lady up there) employed to make the player believe something that was actually a lie. When he says “Earth to earth” he’s talking about things that actually did happen and were properly, or almost properly, represented in game. Using both, he refers to when deaths really did happen, but their circumstances were far different than the fiction the player is told
A little late, but "illusions to illusions" means something in the fantasy, whether people dying, or doors being locked, or corpses existing, didn't actually occur. For example, 4th game, first twilight. The answer is no one actually died at that time. All the poeple in the dinner hall agree to play the culprit's murder mystery game in exchange for the gold.Then, the illusion of Kinzo murdering the 6 was fabricated over that. Earth to Earth means everyone who appeared in the fantasy to die, did. Their corpses are actual corpses. The Fantasy leads to the result.
ok but
Rosa is 35
she was 15 when she met Kuwadorian Beatrice
so Kuwadorian Beatrice died 20 years ago
but Shannon is 19
I feel like the explanation is really simple but I just don't get it
Jean Kebab The manga explains that genji bring her from the fukuin house, also modified her age, so natsuhi wouldn't suspect anything.
yuri hime But 19 is Shannon's official age. She pretends to be 16, which was her modified age.
It's frustrating isn't it?
Spoilers
Kuwadorian-Beatrice=/= The Beatrice we have known throughout the story. If you have read Chiru, it should have been explained, I believe.
@@Ribbotsaur The point is more how could she have a child one year after she died? The solution to this is that it wasn't exactly 20 years ago, just approximately 20 years ago. For example you would say January 2000 was 18 years ago, even though it's closer to 19 (it's November 2018 if anyone's reading this in the future)
[red] it was for a corpse...all Battler had to do was to look inside [red] and see Rosa hiding at the back of the room.
That really is true, only Ryukishi (and maybe Sayako Ohara, the voice actress, since she doesn't actually have to know) knows the real truth. We can only speculate as to what happened. However, there is a consistent, plausible and coherent theory that works in all 5 games and that goes along with the red truth, which is also clued to be the truth, other than the Shkanon theory which is a controversial issue due to many red statements that make it impossible for them to be the same person.
After Erika sealed the rooms, she needed to lock them completely, correct? But in reality she couldn't use Cornelia and Gertrude since they are magical beings. From a realistic perspective, Erika would have to seal the windows herself. Before she managed to seal the windows, Kanon got out of the room through the window. That's why he seems to be there in the first place. He later on left to place the letter and wait to exchange places with Battler.
How cool~
Is their any way you could post the patch XD'' Plz XD
Yes! Very nice! I usually say that [blue]Shannon "killed" Kanon.[/blue] but as Erika was the killer, the idea of Erika killing Kanon is definately a very viable answer. Thank you.
Have you read "Our confessions" though? Basically, it states that the whole murder game is a fake "prank" by Yasu to challenge Battler (That in the end goes horribly wrong and everyone dies, but that is for yourself to theorize about). All the people from the Ushiromiya family, except Battler, are in on it, so there is no problem with Kanon and Shannon being at two places at the same time as the rest of the family can provide alibies for it. You should read it, it provides a bunch of clues.
Where is the our confession
Anybody knows the name of BGM starting at 1:25? It's so awesome but i can't find it anywhere -,-
Golden Nocturne
Golden Nocturne
Correction: There is proof that Kannon and Shannon are both different people and the 'Three Personalities' theory that says Kannon, Shannon, and Yasu are actually false since in the third game Ushiromiya Lion exists along with Shannon and Kannon who are actually there too.
For the logic error room when people say 'Kannon became Shannon' because he stops 'existing' you have to look at the point where Erika actually used a shotgun to fire a bullet in the closet thinking Battler was in there.
sync94 But we still don’t see Shannon and Kanon together? Besides, it’s explicitly said by Shannon that she and Kanon come from another world (Beato, not Lion), and that they’re confused. Since they are technically the same person, but from different worlds, they count as two so long as Shannon/Kanon are stuck in Lion’s World, but in the rest of the worlds they are one with Lion/Beato
0:45
Ryukishi has deceived us all. He has constructed the greatest murder mystery novel and is the most brilliant writer I have ever seen. Thanks to a friend, I was able to reach the REAL TRUTH of the series. Who/How/ and Why dunnit. I REALLY urge everyone, if you want to enjoy the story, re-read along with the Van Dine rules that are specifically mentioned. That way you can reach the REAL truth and figure out that someone else is the culprit and:
(RED/) SHKANON THEORY IS A LIE (RED/)
I see, I see... I don't play the games, but I read the manga (and it's taking forever). Thanks for telling me this! 8D Ima give you a kisss~~! -3- Muuuuuwahhh~~~!
screenshot this one
After all, we are looking for solutions to these closed room murders, and we highly depend on the detective's perspective. Erika saw Shannon and Kanon as two different human beings with each their own body. If Erika's perspective is magical, we should only see one of them. However, she is showing the realistic perspective of things in EP5 and saw how they are two completely different people. If that perspective is a lie, then we can't trust anything in EP5
SFGK In the manga, it’s shown that she actually never saw both at the same time. In the games (5 and 6) we only got Battler’s view on the game board or a few others, never Erika’s. She never acknowledges that they’re both there.
hey what's the song that plays when Will is breaking apart the illusion of the witch?
Golden Nocturne
What is the name of the track that plays while Willard uncovers the truths?
Golden Nocturne (Instrumental ver.)
Does anyone know the BGM starting at 1:28? Such a beautiful theme.
7 years late but its called Golden Nocturne
whats the truth for ep v (natsuhi trial)
If you don't mind, tell me how long it took (from ripping to completing).
about 7 years to reply back, like this
So ... The patch is coming soon ? :D
I never read this. What's this? I only know that at last Beato came to duel with Erika. And Battler and Beatrice happily ever after... Did I miss something?
6 years later but this fight is between Will and Yasu in Episode 7
thanks
In red it says there are 17 people not 16
sync94 It says that there are no more than 17 people, not that there definitely are 17 people. Tricky wordplay XD
The song of 0:10
Its from game 7.
EP 2 Red statements regarding Shannon and Kanon having two different bodies, being two completely different people as well.
"6 people(which also refers to individual corpses and/or bodies, not personalities), specifically Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Kumasawa, Kinzo, and Gohda are dead!"
You can also look for the EP6 Logic error that provides countless red truths stating that Shannon and Kanon are not the same, I suggest you check all the red truths in the umineko wiki page, it is stated many times
SFGK It isn’t specified for game 2 that people means bodies and not personalities. That only applies to later cases, such as when Erika asks for confirmation of that in the 6th game. Also, if they aren’t the same person, how did Kanon escape the room? The room Shannon was in had no seal, but the one Kanon was in did. We are only told the names of the people in the unsealed room, and are told that “everyone else” was in the sealed room. This doesn’t specify who, exactly, was in there.
Exactly there was no evidence presented throughout ALL episodes that Shannon = Kanon, only circumstantial evidence allowing for the possibility. There were no clues pointing it to it as such.
The red truths contradict that. The red truths that everyone is in the rooms were made after the red truth that the rooms were sealed. It doesn't matter that we never saw Erika actually seal the windows, we didn't see it in game 5 either and it is accepted. You cannot accept some red truths, and dismiss others so easily. Cornelia and Gertrude are just metaphorical representations of Erika sealing the room.
well I don't see how calling everything an illusion without at least explain it makes it a valid argument, I'm in Debate and if I kept saying that their facts are illusions where would that get me? And besides people actually died, how could all their deaths possibly be called illusions, it doesn't make sense, you don't just say everything's an illusion and somehow that works that's not how arguments are formatted.
Hey, it's Saq78642 of UmiTweak, In seeing what you've accomplished in a relatively short time, I would like to extend an offer for you to either join the team or help us out. If your intrested, please come on the UmiTweak chat at your earliest convience. :)
~Saq78642,
Team Leader
There's no right answer, each theory cannot be disproved nor proved, I'm sure something like battlertrice or gohdatrice could be possible with enough word twists. So there's really no point discussing about the answer, for there is none. At least not untill R07 gives us something like the book of ultimate truth, which won't happen.
Even then, considering that each and every theory has plotholes (be it thanks to Knox, Van Dyne, Reds or Detective perspective), it would only further prove that R07 has contradicted himself in one part or the other of the VN regardless of the answer.
So my theory is that not even R07 has a flawless answer and that he's himself in a logic error. Which can also explain why umineko ended the way it did.
i agree, i also feels like r07 just made an excuse because he himself cannot find the truth lol. some people feels they solved the cat box just because they watch some guy's video here on youtube about the theory of rosatrice. But any theory that made up, Shakanontrice, Rosatrice, jessicatrice blahblahtrice, all of these are cannot be proven to be true
but great series overall i really love this one
I shall not agree. Everything makes perfect sense with ShKanontrice. Everything else either is denied by a red or Knox 8th. R07 did confirm this theory in an interview, btw.
Even Shkanontrice has contradictions. Any theory has them. Regardless of what R07 says there are major flaws in the writing, making it so that it requires twisting the phrasing of those reds so much in order to make them fit any theory. It's no longer making the theory fit the facts but vice versa.
And don't get me started on Van Dine and detective perspective, if you apply them to the full extent together with the reds and knoxs the VN becomes either unsolvable or something so absurd to be called a mistery.
And thus there's no point on discussing the answer for there is none.
preoklenthe examples pls. name the exact parts with contradiction and then we'll talk. Till then you're just a random pleb.
Okay. Knox 10th "It is forbidden for a character to disguise themselves as another without any clues" and the Shkanontrice theory, that combined with Van Dine 14th "The method of murder, and the means of detecting it, must be be rational and scientific. That is to say, pseudo-science and purely imaginative and speculative devices are not to be tolerated in the roman policier." which discards any magic ways for the clues to be presented (If you stretch that one you can even request the reader to be able to solve the case using only detective perspective). Then there's also the prologue of ep.5 where Shannon and Kanon are seen together in the same room with detective Erika and since "The detective novel must have a detective in it; and a detective is not a detective unless he detects." (VD. 6) It's just not possible for Erika to not catch up on that, it would be completely disregarding .
Not to mention that umineko as a whole goes against VD. 3.
And as I said before, this only applies if you use the four main sources of clues. If you don't use them, then any answer becomes possible and as such discussing them is moot since any could be the right one without any means to ultimately prove it above the other theories.
Shannon corpse exist, but someone in that room is faking death
WHO? The BEST MOM EVAR !!!
I hate the official solution. It's ok from a narrative perspective, but totally butchers the mistery. Every scenario is a "lol, it wasn't locked after all!", "everyone was an accomplice", and "technically Shkannon counts as three people, one person, and no people at the same time and can bypass every red statement ever." It also breaks a lot of Knox and Van Dine rules, and doesn't even try to solve EP5.
Read ep.8 manga, Erika solved everything in ep.5 and 6 game. Umineko doesn't follow Van Dine, and even Dlanor said Knox is just a tool. There're many mystery novels that doesn't follow it. Confession of the golden witch also expand and describe everything for who, how, and why.
Maybe, but some of it can be reasoned out. The siblings being bribed by the true culprit isn't actually surprising, multiple times in the early Episodes we were told that they REALLY needed money, immediately. Some of the details, like in Episode 1 inside the shed, only Shannon's body wasn't inspected. Or the chain of Episode 1 where Eva/Hideyoshi dies: Battler's inspection (which per the red would be absolute) of the chain points towards something amiss about it being truly "locked".
Or Kanon's "corpse" attacking the servants in Episode 2. If we're not to believe in 'magic', then the alternative is that Gohda and Kumasawa were killed inside the same room and that Genji and Shannon were the only witnesses. Ergo, they are the culprit. And later down the line, we learn the Kinzo is dead in every game, so when Shannon and Genji went to see him about his will in Ep. 2 that was actually a lie.
If you can catch the smaller detail, then it'll help unravel the mystery of each Episode.
"Earth to earth. Nobody will dispute that a coffin is a closed room" GETS ME EVERY TIME
why?
@@Ahil4421cuz its bloody brilliant, ahmed
The culprit died in that room. Despair homicide suicide.
The ones that break me are:
"Earth to earth.
... The obvious culprit wields a mutable blade. "
and
"Earth to earth.
... No falsehoods in their final moments as told."
This murder is probably one of the hardest of the whole serie like wtf how did he expect us to find this out lol
Golden Nocturne
Featherine promised that the answers would be given only to the ones who thought about it, and she kept that promise... It's like Will is reading only the final solution of a math problem. If you don't know the procedure, you will find it useless... but once you reached your own answer, you can use it to confirm whether it's right or wrong.
This is actually a great analogy
It's a pure answer check. You only know if you are right or wrong: if you're wrong, you understand nothing, but, if you are right, you understand everything. Though, I guess regardless of what you understand, you get this hype scene, lol.
EP1 and EP2 are tales written by Yasu, while EP3 to EP6 are written by Tohya. These gameboards and the events of Rokkenjima Prime are two different things. The illusions referred to mostly refer to the adornments of the truth given in the narrative to deceive the reader, which Will sees through and explains in a cryptic manner that makes sense when you understand what happened in the game
To be fair, Willard's working off what Battler had already found and seen in the first four games. Willard's also far more experienced, and Battler didn't REALLY start playing until the third game, and Beato messed that one up. Combined with his severe emotionial complex (try accusing your loved ones of being heartless murdering bastards) and once Battler really gets on a role, he gets it pretty fast as well.
its literally said in red truth that he is incompetent
But it's red truth so he can incompetent in one way and still be considered "incompetent" also it was stated early before he knew what he was doing so it's like calling a toddler incompetent for not being able to run when it's barely started to walk
@@murrettoman2590 yeah but in this context, he is incompetent that is the absolute truth
@@murrettoman2590 otherwise beatreice would have chocked when saying that in red
@@neyo231 there are multiple ways to perceive and pronounce the truth, and truths are able to coexist with one another
Yes there are 17 people if Erika joins them.
He is pointing to the illusion in each game. Such as Shannon corpse not existing in the first game
Bear in mind, her corpse washing up on the shore etc is still a valid theory. But Battler also said "Even if you join us...." Before the infamous red statement.
Therefore without Erika counted as a person (IE, dead before the start of the game) there are 16 people on the island.
9 years later but I want to add a point : there is 17 bodies and persons on the island, Kanon and Shannon being two persons for one body, and Erika being a body without a person, that's why it's confusing at first and how she reaches her truth in the 6th game : if she was alive she would be the 18th person but she isn't alive so "even if you join us" aka even if we knew about your body, there is still 17 people aka you were already dead and therefore doesn't count as a person
@@sha1060 It can also be there are 18 humans/bodies on the island, 16 living bodies, Dead Kinzo, Dead Erika.
17 people on the island at the start. One human has two personas of "humans' Shannon and Kanon.
BEATRICE isn't counted at the start as person, or a human, but as an abstraction or Title until Shannon or Kanon "dies".
This will always be my favourite scene in umineko
Golden Nocturne, One of the most epic songs in this VN.
does anyone understand Will's arguments against the mysteries?
Yes
Well, 8 years later, but if you still don't know it for some reason, the manga has a more straight foward explanation in this part and says everything in a more clear way
I know this is an 8 year old comment, but for the rest who are interested:
Earth to earth - Happened as presented, minus the magic (e.g. while Rosa was impaled on the fence and Maria was strangled, it wasn't Beatrice's doing)
Illusions to illusions - False narrative was presented (e.g. Gohda, George, and Shannon weren't murdered by goat demons that magically snuck into a room locked from the inside, nor did a human culprit murder them then somehow escape a locked room; it was Shannon who murdered the other two then committed suicide.)
Earth to earth, illusions to illusions - Mix of truth and lies (e.g. While Nanjo and Kumasawa did have their throats slashed open, it was by Genji and not by a mysterious third party)
Paraphrased from the wiki:
Illusions to illusions. ...The corpse that cannot return to earth returns to illusions. - While the Shannon personality was "dead", Yasu's body was very much alive.
Illusions to illusions. ...A chain of illusions can only trap illusions. - The locked room murder relies on there being a chain, and since there was no chain, there was no locked room murder.
Illusions to illusions. ...Let the man of illusions go to where he belongs. - Kinzo was already dead.
Illusions to illusions. ...The witch and stake of illusions can pierce naught but illusions. - The stake was next to Kanon, it was never actually shown piercing him, thus it never happened.
Illusions to illusions. ...Illusions are the blind girl's song. Illusion of a closed room- Yasu was unaccounted for, so it seemed like the servants were killed with no apparent culprit as everyone else was locked up in Kinzo's study.
Illusions to illusions. ...The gold truth locks the lock of illusions. - No lock.
Illusions to illusions. ...Illusions who have fulfilled their role do not even leave a corpse behind. - Kanon doesn't really exist, so he left no body behind as it belongs to Yasu.
Earth to earth. ...No one would dispute that a coffin is a closed room. - The killer was in the "closed room" thus it isn't a closed room murder, but rather an open and shut case (sorry).
Earth to earth. Illusions to illusions. ...No illusion can create a corpse.- Kanon is an illusion, thus could not have killed anyone.
Illusions to illusions. ...In the closed room ring, the end and the beginning overlap. - Shannon faked her death and escaped out the window, changed into Kanon, and faked the final death in the chapel, hence overlap between first and last.
Earth to earth. ...No falsehoods in their final moments as told. - Self explanatory.
Earth to earth. ...No falsehoods in their final moments as told. - Self explanatory.
Earth to earth. ...The obvious culprit wields a mutable blade. - It was obvious that Eva killed them.
Illusions to illusions. ...Tales woven by the gold truth return to illusions. - Everything was a scripted lie
Earth to earth. Illusions to illusions. ...Silent corpses, adorned by fiction. - The existence of bodies doesn't prove the existence of magical beings.
Earth to earth. Illusions to illusions. ...When fiction is shut up inside a cat box, it becomes truth. - There is nobody alive to prove the narrative wrong.
Illusions...to illusions. ...The promised reaper lowers the curtains on the tale regardless of the witch's will. - Willard exposes Yasu as the culprit in all of the tales.
@@Abeltonne Willard is fast
For those who haven’t read the manga, here is an explanation of all the cases. Obviously it’s spoilers.
The number first represents the game and second will rep the twilight.
1.1 Eva and Hideyoshi were bribed by the culprit. Kanon does not exist, so neither does his body.
1.2 The servants lied about the chain being set.
1.4 Kinzo isn’t among the 16 on the island.
1.5. Nanjo was bribed & lied about the autopsy. Kanon does not exist & Sayo was lying.
1.6-1.8 - The culprit had a key. Maria followed the instructions of them.
2.1 Rosa was bribed and the servants were also. They planned the “”closed room”” beforehand.
2.2 Kanon does not exist.
2.4-6 Sayo was the killer, who was in the room, as “Shannon.”
2.7 Genji did it.
3.1 “Shannon” constructed the closed rooms, the body found at the beginning was a lie, and after, she became Kanon and staged his demise.
3.2 exactly as the game suggests. Without the magic, of course.
3.4-6 Eva and Hideyoshi got bribed, they got rid of Kyrie and Rudolf and then Kyrie, still clinging alive, got rid of Hideyoshi. Basically, she didn’t meet her end instantly.
3.7-8 Eva did it. (No surprise)
4.1 everyone was bribed except Battler. Almost everything in CH4 is make believe; fiction.
I apologise if I worded anything poorly or got the twilights mixed up.
(Part 2) [red]We are not shown EP5 from Erika's perspective as we usually are from Battler.[/red] [blue]Shannon and Kanon are next to each other in front of Erika in the sense that both personalities are active.[/blue] How does the love thing not work? Kanon represents Yasu's love for Jessica, Shannon is Yasu's love for George and Beatrice is Yasu's love for Battler.
Excuse me, [Red] Toyha had a master key.
It wasn't proven that Shkanon was a lie, people seem to think Ryukishi lied. But that wouldn't fit at all with the idea of using love to uncover the truth. (ie Yasu's love for Battler) But regardless of what the definite truth was, every theory is valid, which is what the point of Ep 8 was. But Ep 7 almost proves Shkanon and Shkanontrice.
They're all very cleverly worded. For instance the Chapel riddle (WARNING IF YOU DON'T WANT THE ANSWER SPOILED STOP READING NOW) "Illusions to Illusions. The Gold Truth locks the lock of illusions." Everyone simply assumes the chapel is locked. (Gold truth means human truth. Everyone accepting something as true, therefore making it true. For instance Kinzo's burned body.) But it is never stated in red that the chapel is locked at all. Go back to that scene and verify, it's such a troll move lol
I know it's a comment from ages ago, but golden truth is what people who were bribed with the gold said.
@@MentoDaSheep Yep, it basically just means "people lied or pretended it was true because they were bribed."
This entire sequence makes perfect sense once you learn to "translate" it (like how "Earth to Earth" basically means that the thing depicted actually physically happened, while "Illusions to Illusions" means it's a total fabrication - or both in situations where it's a mix of the two). Or the "mutable blade" referring to Eva committing some of the murders in Episode 3.
what's the music called during the battle scene?
I would love to get my hands on these sprites. Is there anywhere I can download them? I've checked, but the download sources that I have found have only had episode 1-4 sprites, not episode 5-8 sprites. Any help would be appreciated, thanks.
[Red] Battler was the detective, not Erika. Besides, even if she did see them, there is no hints that she actually noted that one of them was different or oddly familiar, even if they did look familiar, they are brother and sister.
Does anyone know the name of the soundtrack?
Which? In the middle plays "Golden Nocturne"
I love this scene. The language and feel are so beautiful.
:,)
[Blue]Five keys have been acknowledged, as are five people. But it is never stated that those five are separate bodies, not identities! There's nothing strange about one of the Servants having a spare key, particularly since Yasu is clumsy![/Blue] As for six people- don't make me laugh: [Blue]The number of corpses is not confirmed as six! Only the number of people killed! At this point, body-person link has not been established in Red! Two identities could still refer to two 'people'![/Blue]
Plz upload Battler vs. Bern and Bern vs.Lambda battles.I'm sure alot of people want to see those but no one have the full battle up on youtube. plz and thank u
@lumpias7295 They probably have someone who can do all these things and more anyways.
Can someone please send me this game through email as whenever i try to get it on my pc something always messes it up-.-
@shadowleraja bought the game, ripped out the sprites and voices, and added them in the game.