ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 22 ก.ค. 2024
- In this video, we'll be go through the most popular keyboard layouts and analyzing their heatmaps to determine which layout may be the right one for you!
Keyboard layouts mentioned -
Dvorak
dvorak-keyboard.com/
Colemak
colemak.com/
Colemak Mod DH
colemakmods.github.io/mod-dh/
Halmak
github.com/kaievns/halmak
Norman
normanlayout.info/
Engram
engram.dev/
Workman
workmanlayout.org/
Carpalx
mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/
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00:00 Intro
00:52 History of layouts
02:58 Qwerty
03:39 Dvorak
04:42 Colemak
05:22 Colemak DH
06:03 Workman
06:17 Norman
06:47 Engram
07:13 Carpalx
08:02 Halmak
08:25 Should we kill Qwerty?
_________________________
▶️ NEW columnar wireless split keyboard - The Dygma Defy
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▶️ What makes the Dygma Raise different (and better)!
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▶️ From Laptop Keyboard To Ergonomic Split Mechanical Keyboard
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I switched to Colemak a couple of years ago after a nasty finger injury and have never looked back :D I can still type in QWERTY if I'm using someone else’s keyboard but it's so nice to type in Colemak I really feel the difference with much less pain and strain!
Sorry to hear about the injury, but I'm happy you've learned a new layout through it and that you're happy with it now! 🥰
20 years Dvorak user here. Try any alternative layout, it's really worth it.
The main reason I'm happy to have switched to Dvorak is not that it's necessarily the best keyboard layout; rather, it opened my eyes to the importance of keyboard ergonomics and alternative layout possibilities. I'm very excited to use the thumb keys even more in my future keyboard layouts.
Nice! Thank you for commenting and sharing your experience! 🙆♂️
Sometimes you gotta try new things just for the sake of it. Thinking and acting the same way every day makes you soft 💪
A rolling stone gathers no moss.
@@advikdeshmukh805 You make some good points, and it certainly is advantageous to have a single, consistent keyboard standard. However, due to the variety of global languages and keyboard layouts, Qwerty is neither a single standard nor a consistent one. Therefore, alternative layouts have a place in many people's lives--although, as you point out, they also have numerous drawbacks. It is true that I cannot easily use a Qwerty keyboard ever since I switched to Dvorak, but that isn't really a problem, since I only rarely use any devices other than my own. As far as others using my keyboard, I simply switch the keyboard to Qwerty before they use it (it's a programmable keyboard, but I could also simply switch the operating system's keyboard). So an alternative layout works well for me, but perhaps will not much help others. Regardless of the keyboard layout, however, almost everyone will benefit from the ergonomics of a split and tented keyboard. I hope that ergonomic keyboards become more mainstream in the future, even if people stick with Qwerty.
@@advikdeshmukh805 I couldn't help but notice a number of logical inconsistencies in your comment, thus casting your statements into doubt. You state that you have been using Dvorak in addition to Qwerty for five years, and determined that it's not worth it. If it's not worth it, why are you still using Dvorak? In addition, you state that using Dvorak can be confusing for people trying to fix things on your computer. However, any repairperson worth their salt knows how to change the operating system's default keyboard language, and even if they don't, you shouldn't have any problem doing it for them, since you can easily switch back and forth. You also complain that computers in public places usually only use Qwerty. How is this a problem, if you can easily switch between the different layouts?
I suppose you are probably making these arguments for the sake of others, who may be unable to switch back and forth as easily as you. But keep in mind that the only people who would even be considering a switch in the first place are serious keyboard enthusiasts or typists. These people tend to spend long hours on their computers, and are unlikely to run into the hypothetical scenarios you doscribe. For example, I myself touch-type in Dvorak and can no longer touch type in Qwerty. The primary value which I derive from using Dvorak is neither efficiency nor ergonomics (those come from my split, tented, and programmabre keyboard, not the layout of the keys), but the confidence of knowing that I can unlearn old habits and teach myself new habits. I am now more willing to try new things! When I need to use someone else's computer, it is usually for only a brief period, perhaps to type something into a search bar. In that case, the hunt-and-peck method is perfectly fine. If I need to type for an extended period of time on a computer that is not my own (and if I did not bring my Dvorak-programmed keyboard to plug in), I simply take a few seconds to add Dvorak as an operating system language. When I am done typing in Dvorak, I switch the internal language back to Qwerty so the original user has no problems whatsoever. And I will point out that it only took me about a week to learn Dvorak, and about a month to become proficient. I am not faster than I was with Qwerty, but I like the logical arrangement of the keys, so I have stuck with it. I don't think alternative keyboard layouts like Dvorak are necessarily good enough to justify casual computer users unlearning Qwerty, but I will definitely recommend that new typists learn an alternative layout like Dvorak from the get-go. Of course, an ergonomic keyboard layout (a split keyboard, with tented halves) is far more beneficial and obviously useful than Dvorak will ever be.
Kudos to the producers and editors of the Dygma channel. I loved this one in particular.
Thanks for the amazing resource also.
I can’t wait to receive my Defy!!!
Thank you for your kind words! It's really a team effort to make a visually nice video with lots of useful information in it 😊
I started my custom keyboard journey with a custom made layout based on how often a letter appears in our code base. I quickly realized that this approach was naive and switched to BEAKL. Not totally happy with it I switched to Colemak DH and am very happy now. Considering it took me months to get a decent speed after the switches I guess I will keep Colemak DH even though there are a lot of other interesting options. Thanks for the informative video!
Awesome! Can you switch between that and QWERTY normally, or do you struggle when you have to go back? 🤔
@@DygmaLab I have no problem going back! Funny thing is that for qwerty I intuitively know where each letter is, so I can use it on the phone or with one hand. I learned Colemak DH with strict touch typing so I only know where the letters are when I use all fingers. This is a plus for me as it ensures I always use good form (used to have wrist problems before which was the reason I started looking into ergonomic keyboards, split keyboards and alternative keyboard layouts).
I played around with a slightly modified Colemak-DH late last year. I didn't find the switch to be all that difficult, but there was a bit of added challenge because I'm an IT person. So, I'd switch between a dozen other keyboards while resolving computer issues, only to return to my own keyboard in a different layout. Nevertheless, it was fun, and I'm interested in revisiting it later. I'd like to try some other options too.
Cool! I guess working on IT adds a bit of difficult, specially if you have to work in different keyboards throughout the day 😅
I'm thinking maybe I'll stick with QWERTY for staggered keyboards, and learn a different layout for ortholinear keyboards. Then hopefully my muscle-memory will automatically learn separate sets of actions for the differently shaped objects.
@@andybrice2711 as long as you practice both regularly, I don’t think it’d be an issue, but I haven’t had a chance to switch yet
You're using a QMK/VIA keyboard right? Just make your Colemak variant a layer and switch with a shared hotkey.
@@jimmified The reason is because sculpted keycaps (which seems like it's 75% of all keycap profiles, and 90% of the sets you can find) won't let you switch letters between rows. 4eg Colemack variants usually move R from row 3 column 5, to row 2 column 3. In a keycap profile like OEM or Cherry, R would stick out above the rest of the row, making moving between keys difficult and your keyboard look janky.
I ran into this problem personally when I tried to move to RSTLNE Modified with my custom GMMK2 96%. So I've been using it as a blind layer under QWERTY with a dedicated key to change layouts and a color profile to remind me which layout I'm using. I haven't gotten around to ordering a DSA or TEX format keycap set to flip that around yet...
Nice ! I tried Colemak, Dvorak, Bépo (for french), Soul, Engram, and Canary. But my main ended up being MTGAP by Michael Dickens in 2011. As it is very comfortable for english, but surprisingly for French and my native language as well.
While other layouts was a tid bit more comfortable than MTGAP, none of them were comfortable enough when it came to another language. I still would recommend alternative layouts though, especially for people who get RSI.
That's awesome, so many different layouts tried! 🥰
For a future video, can we get a typing test / sound test demonstration? It would be nice to see someone using the Dygma Defy, and it would be nice to hear how it sounds at various tenting angles, with a few different switch types, and maybe the difference between typing on a bare desk vs a desk with a desk mat.
Thanks for all your hard work!
Great suggestion, we really want to have that in the near future! The problem is that the units we have are not final, but prototypes and this may change the sound of it.
We are going to have the final units soon and we will make sound tests 🥰
switched to colemak late last year and it truly has been a good decision. it feels much more comfortable to type for long sessions.
Nice! Thank you for sharing that with us 🙆♂️
awesome channel. the answer to so many questions in one place.
Thank you!!
Don't forget about RSTLNE, a neural network generated layout that forces all the most commonly used keys into the home row and optimizes for minimal finger travel. It feels kinda weird if you're used to doing lots of moving between rows, but once you're comfortable with it, it's hard to go back.
Aw, I just watched that video recently, such an interesting layout. Did not try it yet, but definitely worth it. We discussed the layout together on our Discord Channel too 🤔
Nah I like Dvorak.
the metric used is kinda useless a long way with a dominant finger is more desireable than a click with the pinky
I am into the bépo layout for around 6 years. For typing french, it is really a game changer. We have a lot of accents that are on the number line on our traditional AZERTY boards. I can type now comfortably resting my wrists on the pad and I love it.
Thanks for sharing! We included Bepo in our software for those who want to customize it 😊
@@DygmaLab Ooooh! I like your ortho split keyboard, I like that you offer blank keycaps and my very favorite switches kailh box white !
I have the Xbows but rarely use it because of the keys columns being too far apart, I have to strech my fingers too much and even if they are quite long, it fatigues me.
I use a custom mix of Colemak and ColemakDH with modifications to adjust it to the german language (on a Lily58 split-kb). All but the standard layer are completely self developed. I'm pretty happy how it turned out.
Cool! If that works for you, and you're happy with it, there's nothing against it! 🤤
what modifications did you make? I just used the punctuation layer to add ß, ü, ö and ä so I didn't change the colemak dh layer at all (just replaced the ; key with an underscore as I am programming Ruby which has much more underscores than semicolons)
Superb video. I didn't know there were so many alternatives. I only knew dvorak, colemak and workman.
Thank you! We've got a great video team 😊
Excellent video. Subscribed.
I've been using the Colemak layout on my Android phones via GBoard for years, and find it really quick and efficient. It didn't take me long to get used to either. I must try it on a computer soon.
That's awesome! Tell us how it goes when you try it on your computer 😍
I love Engram, it's so far the only layout I've been truly satisfied with (though I did customize it a bit). Perfect for my typing style. (Plus it says BYOU, which is kinda cute 😜)
Cool! Bring Your Own Urself? 🥰
I think Engram is interesting for a split ortho layout but I can't get behind why the C key is where it is. Do you have any reasoning for that?
@@Z.DeAllen The layout tries to maximize finger rolling, but that does result in higher pinky finger usage. 'C' being where it is means you get to type words like "science", "cease", "count" (and so on) by rolling your fingers going from pinky to index finger.
Are you try mtgap?
How do you feel about Engram? Are you still a fan? I'm pretty convinced that I will be swapping to it now I've got a glove80 keyboard.
"NEW PRODUCT!!!!
The new mystery device is aniese"
Not sure about the message. Great video by the way!
Almost had it! "AMOUS"
New mystery device is a mouse?! who could have seen this coming!!
@@Zivhayr Now it makes sense!
@@Zivhayr the DygMouse!
There might have been a small typo 😅 but @zivhayr got it 💪😊
@@DygmaLab Not one typo ;) If you're really making a mouse, will you also make version for left-handers? :)
i switched to colemak DH last year, but with a few personal modifications as well. I shifted the K, L & H clockwise between each other (i call it the Colemak DHK), cuz i find it more comfortable curling my fingers to type rather than extending them. It took a couple weeks to get fully used to it, but as someone who types a lot of text for work, I'll never regret the change.
But i constantly use the web browsing keyboard shortcuts (like ctrl W, ctrl T, etc) which are more gathered around the left hand on qwerty than colemak dhk (which is more convenient cuz i can keep my right hand on the mouse). AND I also type in Korean, for which the layout is already very optimized, but only if you keep the keyboard layout in qwerty.
So i had to make it so that my keyboard switches between colemak dhk (for typing) and qwerty (for korean typing and using keyboard shortcuts) with a single tap. And after a month or so of frequent usage, I can now easily change back and forth between qwerty and colemak dhk. I type in Colemak DHK with purely muscle memory and no visual clue, and using my eyes a bit more for qwerty (my keyboard's keycaps were kept in qwerty).
So there are some minor inconveniences, such as typing the wrong letter at times cuz i mix up the two layouts, or not knowing what layout my keyboard is currently set as unless i type out a word. But i'm willing to endure these minor inconveniences because my english typing experience is so much better and comfortable now.
Thanks for the comment!
Good for you, not only for adopting the layout that works better for you in English but also for taking the extra step and adapting to your day-to-day tasks!
My guess here is that you'll keep on modifying the layout as time goes by and that's great. Keep innovating, and, who knows, maybe the next layout we discuss is the MysticCat 😉
Advice for anybody that wants to pick a new layout:
READ THE DESIGN PHILOSOPHIES, don't pick them because some statistics they created outperform another layout.
That's good advice. Check for what language the layout was first designed for and the thought process behind it 🤔
@@DygmaLab Not only language. Ppl have different preferences on what they want their typing style to be. For example whether you wanna "drum" your left and right hands like in dvorak or roll all over the place like colemak/others.
@@janmagtoasthey, could you elaborate on what "drumming" means? Or point me out to a source.
@@thedog5k when you compare colemak and dvorak for example you either have a very "drumming" or "rolling" focused typing style. for drumming you usually hit one letter per hand before switching to the next hand which ends up feeling like you're drumming on your keyboard when you go fast (very common in dvorak since bigrams are usually split on two hands due to vowels being grouped on one hand) and on colemak you usually "roll" more often. like you hit a few keys on one hand and then move over to the next hand. obviously you have all kinds of motions on your keyboards while typing but some layouts favor rolling more than drumming. and also some people enjoy drumming more, some enjoy rolling more.
@@janmagtoast but, it's very hard to know what you prefer before learning a few (2-3) alt layouts, and if didn't pick optimal style for you, you will get quickly used to new style. some layouts are created with really extreme philosophy (like semimak with lowering sfb&dsfb >> anything else, so it has huge right pinky load). canary was created to be well enough for everyone, just like colemak, and it made pinky usage very low because a lot of qwerty typists don't use pinky. regarding roll/alt philosophy, dvorak actually has quite a lot of rolls, and in akl community roll is classified as 2 keys on one hand and switch to another hand, and 3 keys on one hand and then switching is consider slightly negative stat.
overall, it's a bad idea to compare stats and it's ALSO bad to just read philosophies and trying to decide for yourself -- just pick colemak if you want more compatibility, or any of the modern layouts if you want best layout - you won't know the difference and you will get used to new style anyway. there is a lot of info on discord and here bit.ly/keyboard-layouts-doc
ps: dvorak is VERY BAD layout, qwerty with good enough style is better than dvorak, no one should learn dvorak in 2023, you might not agree, but it's a fact. and i'm a very fast dvorak typist myself.
My kids are just now coming to the age of having to use keyboards for school. I figure that this is a great opportunity to explore alternative layouts. Also, I figure custom keebs is a good entry-level exercize prior to Raspberry Pis.
Oh, yeah! It would be amazing if we could learn about all these options before having QWERTY printed on our brains. I think it would be much easier to get used to the new layouts if we were presented to them way sooner 🤔
Been using Engram for 5 months now and I enjoy it a lot. I'm up to 100WPM but the key thing is feel. It's just so comfortable and there are so many bigrams and trigrams
That's awesome! Keep going and tell us how it goes 🙌
A very well presented video.
Thank you ❤️
Another long time Colemak user here. I'm retired now and don't spend nearly as much time at the keyboard as I used to. However, when I was working and typing pretty much all day, I developed pretty severe wrist pain. I purchased a split keyboard (Ergodox) and switched to Colemak and all my pain went away. Still using the layout today and I'm on my second Ergodox (Moonlander) since I totally wore the first one out. To me the key isn't speed, it is comfort.
Totally agree with that! I'm happy that you don't have pain anymore 🫶
I'm interested in trying a 34-key layout with a spilt ergonomic keyboard. It seems a lot of people are using Colemak based layouts, so that's probably what I'll go with. I think having Colemak for a split ergo and sticking with qwerty for standard keyboards may help to eliminate confusion when I'm using other people's computers.
I think it's interesting you mentioned alternate layouts are generally designed for typing English, not programming, as I suspect a fairly large majority of those using alternate layouts are programmers.
That is a good idea. That way switching to a normal keyboard would be like using a completely different set of muscle memory.
When my Defy arrives I'd like to try out a few other layouts, like Engram and Halmak, since the lovely Dominique said they work well on split ortholinear keyboards. My question is this...what's the best/easiest way to try out different layouts using Bazecor? Do I have to manually assign each key on a new layer?
There's different ways. You can do manually assign each key or install that layout as your input language on the computer. Here's a video that explains it 😊 th-cam.com/video/HnBLoZGkPgc/w-d-xo.html
I started to learn dvorak three weeks ago, so it's still early to say how I feel about it, but I will surely change the position of some symbols at a later time.
Congratulations! A colleague at the office also customized Colemak to include a more reachable ñ for Spanish. We call it ColeÑak 😅
After spending quite a long period experimenting with layouts I can say, only from my own experience the following:
1. Compatibility-wise, the absolute king is qwerty.
2. The most important improvements that could be done to qwerty are: replacing caps lock with backspace and P and: switched.
These two things will improve finger and wrist movement with significant benefits.
3. Any other layout works only if people can retain compatibility with qwerty, OR some device with a competing enough demand would flood the market to influence the behavior to move in other layout direction. VR devices could help in that direction.
Some people claim that they are able to keep their qwerty muscle memory while learning other layouts. Specially if the type of keyboard is different. Like use qwerty on staggered keyboards and colemak on split columnar.
Dvorak layout is available out of the box in every major OS, including android and iOS... Also the best is to keep qwerty hardware while using software mapping for any of your changes as low level hardware is easier in qwerty. The good thing is that I don't need to type at 150wpm in my bios...
Halmak has been a godsend. I loved typing college because it allowed for freedom and acrobatics with words. It just isn’t possible very easily with modern dictation. I’m sure the same thing could be said with an inkwell and a quill giving the writer, a greater sense of conviction and permanence for those of that era.
With a couple auto accidents in the rearview mirror, an occupational therapist told me that I needed to get comfortable living in a world of dictation. I came across someone talking about split ortho linear keyboards and I was sold.
I’ve had just over three years of Halmak under my hands, and my forearm to fingers tense up just thinking about how difficult typing is on anybody else’s keyboard is. It’s only even made me better IT professional since I’ve been forced to find a way to make things work in windows or macOS on other people systems. Can’t wait to dive into this new world of foreign language optimized layouts. Everyone should definitely give this a try and find one that works for their situation.
Thank you very much for sharing your story! I'm delighted that you've found the layout that meets your needs. I completely agree with you; each of us should strive to discover the ideal layout for ourselves. Though it may take time, the reward is unquestionably worth it! 😊
Has there been a heatmap analysis done on different layouts on split keyboards? I'm sure they end up similar, but I'd be curious how that looks on say a Colemak ortholinear split or a Dvorak columnar split
The representation would be a little bit different, but the heat map itself wouldn't change, as it reflects the number % of times a letter is being pressed. Colemak or any other layout stays the same on columnar. That said, it would be interesting to see that representation, we'll give it a go 😊
Great overview, punctuation in the middle looks interesting.
Thank you! There's a world to explore regarding layouts 🗺️😊
I am currently learning Dvorak. So far it's been fun, but I have a long way to go!
Nice choice! Enjoy the journey!
did you learn it? i also started using it 2 days ago and im typing this with dvorak too :D
I used dvorak for a couple of years, and then fell back to using qwerty for a while. But now I use colemak. I have heard of a failed software keyboard layout called kalq. It's pretty neat for phones and stuff.
Glad you found a layout you liked! We'll check out the one you suggest :-)
I might try it, although at this point I think I can't be bother to learn a new typing layout. I'm comfortable on QWERTY
And even though it might not be ideal, QWERTY works
All the layouts are valid, but it's always nice knowing the alternatives, even if you don't adopt the whole layout, you can always make some small changes 😊
Thanks for this interesting video and the thorough investigation in keyboard layouts. Personnally, I observe I have learned how to type during highschool on a French AZERTY keyboard and type without looking at the keys pretty fast. However, I observe I have a kind of asymetrical mastery of the left and right hands. Though I am right handed, curiously my left hand keeps stil while typing, while my right hand jumps all over the place, some fingers wanting to type the character they are not supposed to. An idea of the reason behind that ? I still use the conventional keyboard of my Mac (though I am currently contemplating purchasing a Ryse).
That's something that happens to many people that game a lot (or gamed in the past). The left hand is more keyboard-dexterous than the right.
@@DygmaLab😂 I have hardly ever gamed in my life. Just typed a lot. Is there an insight of why this is so?
@@PierreJohnsonOnline si tu étudies la position des mains "by the book" sur un clavier tu verras que la main droite a bien plus de touches et d'espace à couvrir en général. Ce qu'il faut chercher à optimiser c'est le chemin parcouru par tes doigts en fonction du type de contenu que tu produis. Perso je programme et écris beaucoup en français/anglais/portugais donc j'ai un dovrak+adaptations internationales. Dans tous les cas, AZERTY n'est vraiment pas un bon layout.
However I did use a full keyboard with a number pad on the right.
Effectivement@@loicjeannin6233 et AZERTY n'es pas le meilleure disposition pour qui travaille en français et en anglais. Ce W à gauche en anglais et ce Z aussi sur QWERTY. Il faut que j'essaie d'autres dispositions. Mais c'est difficile aussi de changer. J'ai MINIMAK et OPTIMOT dans ma liste.
5:29 in the video. That's not standard Colemak DH. Why are the comma & period flipped?
It's a slightly modified layout, but still, they are flipped, sorry about that 🙏
Do you have software to increase typingspeed with new layouts?
We don't have, unfortunately. We have a typing channel on our Discord where people discuss how to get better at typing and all that. Maybe you could check it out.
Colemak-dh FTW! ;)
So many people like that layout, one of the best, for sure!💪
So many options haha. A bit overwhelming, not sure where to start.
Try to find one or two you think that fits you better and try them. Don't be scared of failing! If you find that layout is not for you, change and try till you find the one 😜
Since I am a left-handed touch typist, the QWERTY layout favors the LH when typing English. There is a 57% - 43% LH - RH split, so it makes little sense to learn something else. My desktop keyboard and mouse are orientated for RH use, as the mouse was shaped to fit the right hand when I first learnt to type.
So did you get used to use the right hand mouse even being left handed? Is not worth it to you now to change to a left handed mouse?
@@DygmaLab I had little choice, I had to make do with a MS 2.0 serial port mouse shaped for RH use. The asymmetrical shape made it too awkward to use LH. That was 30 years ago, then I learnt to touch type in 2000. So it's no use changing to a LH mouse configuration. The advantage of it, is that I can use a mouse with my RH and write with my LH.
Ever notice that all the letters for TYPEWRITER are on the top row? The salesmen used to put a single page of paper and type TYPEWRITER as a sales tool
🤯🤯
My arguement for qwerty has always been that the words you type have more defined finger shapes/movements than a layout like dvorak where your fingers stay mostly stationary. This makes it easier to learn the layout because most people don't think about where the letter they want is, they just do the finger motion of the word they want. This is why it feels so awkward to type a word that is brand new to you.
If we were going to try to change qwerty I think that's a job best suited for ai which can take all other languages into account as well as distinct finger motions and not just motion efficiency.
That makes super sense! Who know,s maybe AI will create a new layout that we're all going to use and love in the near future 🥰
there is a bunch of layout that AI generated: halmak, mtgap... Nothing new from your comment
Dvorak puts vowels under right hand, I type in syllables. Qwerty makes no sense.
Guys, Anyone know the name of the keyboard shown at '' 10:14 '' ? It looks awesome :o
That's the Dygma Defy (dygma.com/defy)
3:39 Dvorak timestamp missing in video description
Thank you, we're going to add it! 🤤
Why do many alternative layouts end in MAK or AK? Is that a coincidence, or does it mean something?
AK...Alternative Keyboard?
We don't know that one, actually. HalMak, for example, is a combination of Hal-9000 because it's AI generated and somewhat an homage to Dvorak.
Maybe all of them use the -mak ending as homage, because the guy who invented colemak, for example, is named Coleman 😅
It's probably just in my head, but it feels like your studio might be used for something else in the evenings..
Nah, we only do keyboard videos 😇
i wanna see what a left-handed only keyboard would look like. i would love to be able to keep my right hand on the mouse while i type, even if it was slower WPM
Thanks to layers, you can try that with a programmable keyboard like the Raise or the Defy 😊
@@DygmaLab good idea, i think ill try that
Anyone has a view on the alternative layout to try for English AND programming?
I could say that a lot of folks convert to Colemak or Colemak-DH and create layers to suit their needs with symbols and all that.
You could also do that with other different layouts 😉
Maybe you can get some insights from this video here, we have some programmers commenting on how they use their Raise: th-cam.com/video/hsQONFusqgk/w-d-xo.html
Programmer Dvorak
I'm one of the few people who has been using Carpalx QGMLWY for a few years. The optimization theory is sound, but most non-qwerty are. I don't believe there is much optimization difference between Workman/Colemak/Carpalx. Whatever your OS supports better probably makes sense. My OS supports Carpalx natively, but the obvious winner on this is Colemak.
The biggest difference for me was ortholinear. You will immediately start to hate mechanical typewriter bar offsets once you get used to ortho.
And I wouldn't have done any of this if I spent any time at all on shared keyboards.
Thank you, those are some great insights! 🙏🧐
Yesterday I started to think about how much I hate pressing T. A being on the pinky makes me shift one place to the left, E not being on the home row sucks too. That lead me to making my own layout with the goals of preserving QWERTY as much as possible, while preserving other things like ZXCV since they are common hotkeys and HJKL, because I am a Vim user. Also starting from scratch doesn't make sense too much, since QWERTY has only a few offenders. Starting from scratch will produce a layout with roughly the same efficiency as a fixed QWERTY, just a different arrangement. Here is a preliminary version:
QWRSGYNIOP
FATEDHJKL
ZXCVBUM
The word was an accident I swear... If you are not a vim user you can swap NIO with JKL for example. Also I am considering swapping F with S (still makes a word lol).
I tested with the 100 most often used words in english, a few digrams, trigrams and stuff and actually feels really nice.
We don't need new layouts, we just need to fix QWERTY. In that case _ATE_ is a must combo there.
You should call it the FATED layout. Sounds amazing, there's a video of a guy that did the same thing but thinking in his language and usage, a cool looking video: th-cam.com/video/dGfTFkSdm1s/w-d-xo.html
FATED HJKL
FATED VIM
Looks like your layout isnt capable of exiting Vim !
For german there is another cool layout called Neo which is optimized for german, math and programming and there are also variants of it like bone or mine (the latter one being optimized for a mix of 60% german, 30% english and 10% european mix)
I've been using Mine for about 2 weeks now
Thank you! We'll check it out!
One of the most important things that make a layout feel good are how often you type two letters in a row with the same finger. For example if you look at Workman typing LY is very uncomfortable. I've been using Halmak on a columnar split keyboard for a while but I'm currently learning a new and better layout because of the problems with Halmak. Typing words like 'again' or 'paper' or 'enjoy' are particularly uncomfortable. For me an alternate layout is about ergonomics and comfort. Speed is less of an issue. If I can do about 80 WPM that's good enough for me.
It's also important to understand that the most common bigrams are different on each language. So a layout can be great for English and terrible for Spanish. It's a try and fail process, but every try is a pain 😅
Hi, what keyboard layout are you using now?
15 year Colemak user here. I'm still very happy with it.
We're trying to "develop" a Spanish variation. We call it ColeÑak 😅
@@DygmaLab Haha
@@DygmaLab jajaja me encanta!
I have designed OPTIMOT, a layout for French and English.
Optimot was designed to answer the criticisms made of Bépo.
Less stress on pinkies, less Single Finger Bigrams, more rolls.
Better for English.
Better efficiency for split keyboards. Angle-mod for staggered keyboards.
Better symbol placement.
Over 2300 characters supported.
Full International Phonetic Alphabet, including diacritics.
150 scientific symbols. 100 arrows.
Drivers available for Mac, Windows, and Linux.
More information and performance comparison on the Bépo forum.
Nice! Sounds like a great layout 🥰
@@DygmaLab Thanks. I also have a variant for Spanish and English that kicks asses. Ask me if you are interested to know more.
what about the swap six layout ??
To be honest this is the first time I hear about this one. The idea is very good "What is the minimum change that I can make in order to bring the most benefits".
Changing P to a semicolon is something that should be standard 😂😂
I'll give it a try, thank you for sharing!
I feel like I gave Dvorak an earnest try, but I've gone back to QWERTY and see no particular reason to switch to anything else. Perhaps if I started using a split keyboard, I might also at the same time try using a different layout, like Colemak, since I would essentially be re-wiring my brain to type on a very different kind of machine and thus I might find it interesting to use that effort to catalyze learning another keyboard layout, but as long as I'm using a regular keyboard, even an Alice layout keyboard, I see no reason to keep trying to do something that was literally giving me a headache every time I spent any time doing it (trying to type with a Dvorak layout).
Changing layouts can be a ball-ache. You really have to commit when you do so, and have a good reason to! If not, you'll just get frustrated and end up switching back, like what you did. But it's good to have these options :)
I'm intrigued by norman since it keeps zxcv intact and similarity with qwerty but nobody seems to like it :D anyway I'm learning colemak-dh I'm still slow with that about 25wpm
Step by step! I'm sure that if you practice you'll achieve 80wpm soon 💪 And I encourage you to also try Norman, as it is such a great layout
Is there a layout for english and german?
There's a post on reddit that can help you with that 💪 www.reddit.com/r/KeyboardLayouts/comments/i2ubvb/best_keyboard_layout_for_german_english/
We need a software from you which can ingest a directory of text files and generate layouts from it, specifically for your hardware and user preferences and goals.
That would be amazing indeed, thank you for the suggestion❤️
QWERTY expert hahahaha, is there something Dominique can't do?
Not that we know of. Dominique stars, co-hosts and even make special appearances. All in the same video 😲
Time to randomly decide to switch my tablet layout to Colemak. And now I am running 3 different layouts like a madman.
muahhahaha 😈
No but actually, let us know how it goes!
@@DygmaLab My fingers are a bit sore from the effort of trying to force them to the right spot. I'm not exactly sure if this was worse than when I switched to Dvorak on a lark, but I will complain about GBoard's version of Colemak not having quote marks on the first layer.
Wow I hope sore from the workout and not from poor ergonomics 😳
@@DygmaLab Nah, same keyboard, I'm probably just too tense. Part of it is also the multiple corrections from my fingers wanting to go one way, but then having to reverse course to where the actual letter is.
I've used a (slightly modified) Dvorak lay-out on my split keyboard for almost 10 years. And I like it way more than qwerty.
The main downside of not-qwerty keyboards, is the need to re-bind every key for every game... :)
Hi!
Great to hear you found your prefered layout 😊
That's a pretty annoying downside, and is also great to know those little personal stories, thanks a lot for sharing!
What about Minimak?
We'll need to make a part 2 of this video 💪
Learning tips for Dvorak. to learn faster. to start things off,
All vowels left hand side, middle row.
There is often S added on to the end of a word, S is at the end of the middle row.
[edit: do n't forget Z is at the end, bottom row, right ]
And how is it going? Do you like Dvorak?
@@DygmaLab it is a pity I could not swap [Ctrl] Z to [Ctrl] Q (- [Ctrl] undo -) and the rest of the [Ctrl] cut (X), copy (C), paste (V). I only been 4 days on it, but then that would mess up other [Ctrl] functions. So then temporary stickers would be the answer until you get used of it.
I've used all three of them and so far I would say that Dvorak is the most easiest to learn if you have never touch typed before. Also QWERTY isn't all as bad as people make it out to be. If I was to choose an alternative, I would use Dvorak over Colemak because it is pretty much a standard install on all operating systems, even on Windows.
Dvorak is such a good layout, and as always, the difficult part is to get used to it, but when you are already there it's just practice, practice and practice! 💪
The focus on speed, being the defining metric for a layout, isn't a wise choice nor does it bring focus as to why alternative layouts have been developed, clearly aiming to address problems with QWERTY.
Personal experience: After having learned to touch type recently which brought on pain in my forearms, I switched to Colemak-DH and I've never looked back. Less finger stretching to input frequent letters has resulted in a more comfortable typing experience than typing in QWERTY.
Coming back to my opening line: Colemak-DH isn't faster, it's more comfortable.
The crux of replacing Qwerty, IMO, is to define its replacement so that the I.T. industry can phase in the replacement.
Qwerty isn't bad, it's served a great purpose in being a starting point, but it's now antiquated and bested by layouts that do what it does but better.
Disclaimer: Pain when typing stems considerably from physical posture/positioning of arms and hands.
Thank you for your comment and your experience on the matter, Duncan!
You're totally right, people should focus on the comfort and not the speed when considering new layouts!
The open ended question in this video, of putting letters on a thumb key, expands layout composition quite significantly.
For those serious about exploring this concept, I'd recommend the most frequent letter in your language's alphabet (for English that would be e) is set to a thumb key that is located on the half, of the keyboard, opposite to the thumb used for space (character).
I use Bépo a french dvorak since the official release. (even on my smartphone)
Even the original dvorak is more comfortable than qwerty for typing in french.
By the way, you didn't show why the qwerty layout was created by Mr Scholes.
It's normal if nobody with an alternative layout wins the type writing challenge.
There is billions of qwerty-like layout users...
Some record are still owned I think for a late dvorak user, Barbara Blackburn.
You're right, Qwerty is prevalent, which correlates to more people using them in writing challenges, but our point is that if Dvorak was clearly faster, they would switch to it to have an edge.
i am typing regularly in English, Chinese (Wubi), Japanese (Romaji), and Spanish, and thank Heavens i don’t have to learn a separate layout for each of those like i have for Russian and Qazaq, so qwerty above all!
voice input will never replace qwerty just because audio book will never replace reading. it’s too slow. only direct neural input when it becomes cheaper and faster might.
That's a lot of languages!! And yes until we have something that directly reads our minds, we're gonna need keyboards for while 😊
How does this only have 5k views?
I know right? Help us get more views, please! 🙏
I thought qwerty was made because the type writer metal prongs would clash it wasnt meant for typing efficiency but for efficincy that typewriter metal prongs used to press the ink on paper wouldnt clash and get caught.
Hello!
It is unclear, but the more supported hypothesis is the one about the keyboard being made for telegraphers. The first big customer for the inventors was the Telegraphists School of Chicago, where Thomas Edison scoffed at the invention 😅
Then, the other hypothesis, like the jamming prevention and the fact that you can "typewritter" with the top row which made the invention easy to sell became popular. Thought the claims might have been made at some point, the other hyopthesis seems more cohesive.
The only thing better than an optimal keyboard is a standardised keyboard
Standardized keyboards can have their perks 😊
How long before computer keyboards are as relevant as buggy whips?
We really hope it takes a long time 😋
The point of these layouts isn't to be fast (although it achieves that), it is to be more comfortable
That is true. Fast is a byproduct.
as per your opinion what would be the best layout for programmers? that should be a video I guess, I need to know this cant figure it out by my own
It doesn't matter much. When you're programming you aren't typing a lot of text, you're using a lot of shortcuts like ctrl-space and other keys like arrows, tab, enter
Remap those on a separate layer along with symbols you need and you'll be fine with whatever layout
As a programmer using Dvorak for 20+ years, I tend to be very biased :) that said, try those layouts yourself it's very much a personal preference at this point. Any one of them is MUCH better than qwerty.
@@NJ-wb1cz makes so much sense!! thanks
@@loicjeannin6233 very insightful thnx!!
@@NJ-wb1czsorry to disagree but layout still matters; most of your function/method/attributes names are English words. If you're copy pasting most of your code then you probably need the optimized stackoverflow keyboard.
5:45 these heatmaps clearly don't depict the same heat for each letter. just compare the H keys for example
edit: also it doesn't make sense to introduce Colemak-DH before Workman, which was released before it and also served as the inspiration behind it
edit2: also you're completely missing the point on Colemak-DH by saying that it "pushes the heatmap to the upper row" as the goal of it is to push it down for a more natural hand position while the upper row is almost identical; your point is illustrated by a clearly fake heatmap as i pointed out above.
you're also missing the point on the Workman layout, which isn't supposed to reduce strain on the index fingers, but instead to reduce wrist movement, as stated on the website.
Thank you for your feedback Liravin. We'll consider that information in the future 🙋♂️
I love alternative layouts :) I'm typing this on my Dygma Defy, using the Canary layout! I had been using Colemak DHm for about a year, but I like Canary even more... I just have to learn all over again :p
Maybe you can try a layout I found on Reddit called Colemary, it is a mix of Colemak and Canary 🤔
@@DygmaLab Fascinating! I didn't know that existed! Thanks!
@@DygmaLab Where is it? I can't find it, sorry!
Don't worry, I saw it here www.reddit.com/r/Colemak/comments/15d4vwi/thoughts_on_my_colemary_layout_context_in_the/
You forgot to put W between M and V in the Dvorak segment, whoops.
Oops! 🙊
I switched to Dvorak couple years ago, and won't go back. Even if its only marginally faster than QWERTY, its so much more comfortable.
The most difficult part of this is getting used to it, after that, everything are advantages 😜
Workman? Later the night? What kind of movies do you guys produce over there? :D
Don't get us started on that 🤣
@@DygmaLab Pandemic was hard for all of us, don’t blame you 😂
„Back then“, the layout of the keyboard was chosen based on a combination of letters that often came together, and to avoid jamming the typewriter's mechanical arms. There is no longer any reason for this layout.
There are some myths regarding how qwerty came together. The jamming thing would need the opposite: avoiding keys that are close together.
Another topic is the staggered layout: that was due to the keys being levers that you pushed. Columnar is much more ergonomic but you couldn't build a typewriter like that. The J would be on the way of the M lever.
@@DygmaLab
Yes. Thats what I mean. I have used a mechanical typewriter and jamming is a thing. 😄
I've always disliked QWERTY, made the switch to DVORAK. They need to introduce more layouts for the tablets.
New layouts on tablets would be awesome too! 🙆♂️
What this video misses is the main disadvantage of using a non QWERTY keyboard and that is commonly used shortcuts. Think of CTRL + X and alike, copy paste, undo redo, close program, close window, … it is a pain with Dvorak that these are messed up, but Coleman made an effort to keep these keys the same.
Absolutely, shortcuts on non-QWERTY keyboards can be a significant adjustment. It's a valid point that Coleman made an effort to maintain consistency with commonly used shortcuts, lessening the pain points of transition. Appreciate your perspective!
Colemak gang represent.
Good for you!
Did it took you very long to get used to it? Some have been trying here, but it has some problem when adapting it to Spanish and we're still figuring out 😅
@@DygmaLab Relatable, I had to adapt it to Icelandic by changing the Þ and Ð locations.
I think the reason why I adapted to within a couple of months was because I never knew how to touch type on qwerty and the left hand location there felt flimsy.
Many years later I type 70 wpm (I doubt I will ever go above that).
If you're good at typing on qwerty it's probably going to be harder to learn any new keyboard layout.
Very interesting point. It makes a lot of sense, the more engraved something is in your brain, the harder it is to change it.
That's something worth some tests, thanks a lot for sharing the experience, it was very enlighting!
sooo... is there really a hidden message...??? ( i tried with colemak and just got gibberish, perhaps i messed up 😅)
There is a hidden message and it is in Colemak 😋
whoever wants to successfully challenge qwerty needs to go back in time one year before it is invented and make yours the one that Remington & others make the standard.
hopefully that person can open a tourism company to that timeline.
It is true that qwerty is quite established, but who knows? everything can change 😜
To me, engram seems the most ergonomic so far, but still far from perfect. (then again, my criteria is how easy is to write "Perfect balls zoom?!")
Engram is such a great option if you write in english 💪
Noooo where is the Neo2 layout?
Might be too specialized in German language. Although it had layers implemented even back in the day ^^
We missed some of the not so known layouts and tried to keep on the most used ones 😅
@@DygmaLab makes sense, it's just that you always look out for mentions of your niche things 😏
I think people forget that QWERTY was literally meant to slow you down
Kinda but yes 😂
Querty is perfect. I don't want most common characters close to each other...
Not everyone agrees, but that's what makes it great! There are different layouts to suit all preferences 💪
Let’s just say that I used to not get why people even care about layouts, to absolutely shilling Colemak-DH to anyone that will listen 😂
I'm the same but with a columnar keyboard 😅
4:00 W 가 안보여요 !
Our bad, W should be between M and V, and V and Z one column to the right 😅
Fucked up features of humanity count:
+1
Total: 27
What do you mean? You don't like QWERTY or the invention of the new layouts? 🤔
"for most people, it's easier to tap their fingers from pinky to index" WHAT i am the complete opposite
Hi, there!
It's true in the sense that is easier for the hands. When it comes to typing, of course we tend to use the index, finger and ring way more than the pinkies, sorry for the congussion 😅
I tried Colemak but I don't want forget my QWERTY muscle memory so I leave Colemak alone.
Makes sense. Sometimes it's better to stick with what we're used to already 🤷♂️
Typing with Colemak DH since a year and it didn't impact my qwerty muscle memory yet. But your mileage may vary!
@@mike78at I had a lot of mistakes and it's make like 1-2week to go straight so I gave up because I want use QWERTY also (because its default layout so it's must) and don't enough time to bridging gap between the two.
As I remember qwerty memory persisted at least first five years since I've switched to Dvorak. It's been 15 years now and I've been surprised I actually lost it.
0:31 not but but so. But makes it seem you are disagreeing with the statement.
👀
Not sure how I'd deal with x and v being moved away from c. Not sure how I'd deal with x and v being moved away from c. Not sure how I'd deal with x and v being moved away from c. Not sure how I'd deal with x and v being moved away from c.
I got lost on the second "Not sure how I'd deal with" 😂
Columnar keyboard kinda does kill qwerty because the N key is just garbage.
Maybe you didn't mean to write columnar but something else?
Are you Filipino 😮
Yes, Dominique is from the Philippines 😊
@@DygmaLab Fellow kababayan hehe 🇵🇭 🇵🇭 🇵🇭
did someone call the workman?
😂😂😂😂😂
can't move to other layout because English is not my first language....
With a programmable keyboard like the Dygma Raise or the Defy you can create your personalized layouts. For example, we have created our variation of Colemak that we call ColeÑak (Ñ is the most distinctive character of our language) 😅
What is your first language?
4:12 wtf is this layout? It's wrong and missing a W?....
You're right, it's missing it 😅
We skipped it while editing the image, sorry.
If it helps, the Z and the V should be one space to the right. And the W should be placed between the M and the V.
Apologies for the miistake, and keen eye 😉
@@DygmaLab no sweat was just teasing. Great video!
Thanks a lot, and, please, don't stop teasing!
TRF is best