It amuses me that firearm overall lengths have shrunk down enough over the course of history that guns we today consider full-length rifles would appear carbine-sized to our forebears.
We've recently broken reliance on sight radius of iron sights. Which means rifles are gonna get a lot shorter, since that was the only thing besides gun dogma that was keeping barrels long(along with blast from strict suppressor regulations). The only way rifles will get longer is if AP suddenly becomes a primary concern... Which will probably just lead back to 308 or something.
@@mytech6779 That's the point. You *don't* have to consider sight radius anymore. This is a recent change. A 9 or 10 inch barrel is just as accurate in unsupported shooting as a 20 inch barrel if both are equal in sights, which is now true. The myth of inaccuracy from shorter guns is what has kept barrels long primarily.
@@mytech6779 I should have mentioned the NFA basically using force to keep barrels long (so long that even a 14.5" standard barrel is illicit off the shelf). I also should have mentioned the SIG braces coming in and making pistols viable, but nothing was stopping us from doing braces before. The "game changer" was red dots. Red dots put sbrs on equal footing with long rifles for all practical purposes, and this is why the the popularity came. Only dogma left to kill now is BS about ballistics, on how an 8" barreled 556 is "ineffective," despite putting out as much energy as a 44magnum with the right loads, except obviously having a trajectory that doesnt drop like a rock.
So true. M-14 7.62x51 NATO 22" barrel but o/a length includes flash suppressor. M16 series 20". But M-4 carbine 14.5 inches .... below the 16-17". But who needs a long sight radius when you've got optical & red dot sights or NVDs? Only for backup when the battery dies or lense caked with mud.
I think another important factor to the length of the musket is reloading. If you put a musket on the floor, the average grown man will be comfortably be capable of steading the gun just underneath the bayonet, and the charging rod will not strain your arm upon insertion or removal. The length of the musket is ideal for standing reloads. Make it shorter, and you'll either have to hunch over or grab the gun by the bayonet, which make the gun less stable and risks unseating the bayonet. Make it longer, and you will strain your arm trying to insert the charging rod. Furthermore, I think the length of the carbine is also significantly influenced by the saddle; in fact, most carbines are as long as they can be before stuffing it in a saddle strap becomes either an issue for the horse or for the rider.
That standing reloads, involves an idealized length, while the excessive length can be better for certain applications. This is a matter of application-specific design.
plausible. I always though it had to do with the burn rate of a black powder charge vs. smokeless, i.e., you ideally want the charge of the cartridge to just have burned off the moment the projectile leaves the muzzle, so you get the most acceleration out of it, avoid wasting powder in a huge muzzle flash, or losing velocity on friction during dropping barrel pressure
Absolutely. Carbines are short because reloading a 5 foot muzzle-loading weapon on horseback would be tricky for sure, especially if the barrel were hot. And then you have the problem of stowing it while riding.
It would be interesting to have a followup video covering the later evolution post WWII. The M16 with the "full length" 20" barrel being _shorter_ than the cavalry carbines of the 1890s, the AK47/74 "rifles" with 16" barrels, and how the mass adoption of bullpups changes the relationship between barrel length and overall length compared to traditional designs.
@@joecary3586 well the 74s were meant to be rifles, but the 47 was meant to be a smg replacement but ofc the soviets just decided to use the 47 as a rifle instead of having the SKS which was a good idea, as the chinese who kept the SKS as a main rifle and the AK as a SMG lost to Vietnam, (after the american war with vietnam) and China lost due to Vietnam having a sort of modern military that was equipped like the soviets with regular infantry all armed with AKs, and/or whatever they got from South Vietnam that NATO gifted.
Ian has it occurred to you yet? that if you continue doing this for the rest of your life. You could become one of the most well-known names in the firearms industry. Lol just a thought! I've been watching your channel since the machine gun intro years ago. Your channel has grown so large that my friends that know absolutely nothing about guns know who you are! Truly remarkable
I know nothing about guns, but Ian is very good at history and engineering explanations and very low on typical gun-nut stuff. I have learned a lot, and really enjoy episodes like this, that teach me the basics.
By the time the third rank of the Mosin-Nagant troops fire, the first rank would have been able to cycle their stuck bolt with the hammer they carry on their belt just for that purpose.
KaiserSchnitzel I’m guessing the same kind of approach works on Russian issued tanks and Rifles... hammer is a universal Tool, and when in need, every tool is a hammer..
I've split it as follows: Over 30" = Long rifle 26"-30" = Rifle 22"-26" = Short rifle < 22" = Carbine Of course that's only for historical weapons. Today 20" is a long rifle.
Today, 20" is rifle, 15-18" is typically considered mid length, 12-15" is carbine, 11" and less is short barelled rifle, and at somewhere around 6" would be considered a pistol. None of this is definitive, but pretty close if I recall. I'd say a "long rifle" would only apply in this day and age to most sniper rifles with a 22-26" barrel. I'd by no means consider 20" a long rifle.
@@supercuttlefish1 It's surprisingly effective actually. The main cons compared to proper earplugs isn't in sound attenuation but in comfort and because it causes everything to sound muddy rather than flatly attenuated. Maybe not enough to protect your hearing from constant rifle fire next to your shoulders, but definitely helps quite a bit.
Also, long barrels were needed on black powder guns because black powder didn't expand as quickly as smokeless powder so you needed a longer barrel to accelerate the bullet
Musketoon is the typical English mangling of the French Mousqueton which means little musket. The English stopped using it by the 19th century but the Americans hung on to the old English mangled musketoon.
Your delivery is so articulate, concise, well-informed and often amusing that I have, in a very short period of time, gone from knowing virtually nothing about firearms and ammunition to knowing enough to impress someone that knows less than I originally did. Thank you for your good work.
The Australian Light Horse used similar tactics to the Dragoons. Experience showed that riding horses into machine guns was a really bad tactic. The Light Horse would ride at speed to the conflict, get off their horses and then fight. A couple of members of the light horse would then take the horses to a position of safety. They could then later retreat at speed if it did not go well, easily reposition their troops, or adopt hit and run tactics.
This was a well established pattern that the Australian Lighthorsemen used to their advantage against the Ottoman Turks at the Battle of Beersheba. When the Turks saw the approaching Lighthorse they decided to wait until they dismounted before firing. But the Aussies just charged. By the time the Turks realised their mistake it was already too late. It was one of the last successful cavalry charges in history.
@@codysodyssey3818 - they have actually made several movies with the charge being the highlight. By this stage in the war, sabre and lance charges on horses had almost completely disappeared due to machine guns. The Aussies were very lucky as the Turks assumed that they would dismount. They actually got under the machine gun and artillery sights.
At the smallest level in US dragoon units, you have a pair of four-man teams. Each team is comprised of a leader, a trooper, a scout, and a _handler._ The job of the handler was to mind the reins of his horse and that of the other three when they dismounted. So 75% of a dragoon formation is freed from the burden of minding the horses as they fought.
@historyGeek I will be that guy and point out that it wasn't riding into machineguns that was bad (cavalry did this alot in ww1 and ww2 with very low casualties) but riding into mortar/artillery fire. Machineguns on their own were very ineffective against mounted cavalry. The misconception comes from the fact most positions with defensive artillery/mortars also had machineguns.
@@matthiuskoenig3378 - this is the third attempt to reply to you. TH-cam is playing games again... . The interesting point is that artillery and mortars killed more soldiers in WW1 than did bullets. Helmets were introduced to protect soldiers from shrapnel, not bullets. Trenches were built in a zig zag manner to limit the number of deaths when a shell exploded in a trench. WW1 became known as the war with trenches, machine guns, and artillery. New techniques of fighting including the creeping barrage were introduced (moving the artillery so that the bombardment moved with the troops so that they could inch forward. . There were also challenges with artillery. They had issues destroying barbed wire with artillery. The Germans implemented deep fortifications under their trenches so that their soldiers could rest in a dry place, unlike the British who survived in rat holes dug into the dirt. These deep fortifications protected their troops as well as providing sleeping quarters, a mess for eating, and sometimes hospital facilities. There was also a huge shortage of shells at the beginning of the war. The other issue was the lack of coordination between the artillery and infantry charges. The artillery would pound on German defences but the Germans would just go underground into the cement fortifications. At the end of the bombardment, they would re-enter the trenches and then shoot at the advancing infantry. The eventual solution was the creeping barrage, tanks, and digging under their trenches (hill 60) and placing explosives under their trenches. . Fixed fortifications were even designed so that they could fire shrapnel shots at their own bunkers and pill boxes to stop infantry from climbing onto the bunkers. Seems crazy to shoot at your own side (excluding friendly fire from the Yanks of course).
There were even two types of shorter Mosin's - Dragoon and Cossak. The difference was the Dragoon's was issued with bayonet and zeroed with bayonet attached (same as Infantry version), and Cossak's was issued without bayonet and zeroed without it.
This video is 3 years old now and, something I love about this channel is that I will never be out of content, there's always something to watch. Also Ian will never run out of content for sure
I thought a main reason for a longer barrel is increased muzzle velocity and range/accuracy. You hinted at improved accuracy, but only as related to sight radius.
That’s more of a factor during the days of black powder. But by the times that Ian is talking about in this video advances in smokeless powder, cartridges, etc. more than compensated for the decreases in barrel length. There’s a severe case of diminishing returns when talking about barrel length in regards to muzzle velocity. A slightly higher muzzle velocity and marginally more accurate weapon just don’t outweigh the drawbacks of a heavier, more material expensive, harder to carry and store, and more awkward to handle weapon.
@askthepaperclip......The idea of long rifle is old one where slow burn powder will slowly groom the ball for far distance without leaving pressure in the chamber & barrel!
Another consideration for short rifles and carbines is the lesser material requirements. When you're equipping an army of tens or hundreds of thousands, you can get significantly more guns.
Here in South Africa is a shop called Jasmyn. In the books section of the boer war is an incredible sight. An original german mauser 98 cavalry carbine used in the boer war and miraculously survibed I know that there is only a handfull of that rifles left in the world
The Boer wars were really very early for a 98 cavalry carbine to have appeared. Could it be that it was a weapon used by german forces in the Herero wars in German South West Africa between 1904-08, and maybe migrated further south east during the occupation of the region by South Africa starting in 1915.
Imperial Russia's need for a dragoon rifle sprang from their use of Cossacks as cavalry, who mostly fought from horseback and were still using sabers to slash enemy soldiers into the First World War, before the lines hardened and trench warfare established itself in the east.
That Italian TS was amazingly beautiful. I've never seen a bolt action and thought it so spectacular. I'd love a patterned alike one in 5.56. Really cool
A common error but pretty obviously wrong, most contemporary bolt actions had 5 round magazines while the SMLE holds 10, if the magazine was being referenced it would more accurately be called the 'long magazine' Lee Enfield.
These guns are fully automatic 1000000000000RPM 20mm machine guns with dangerous military SLINGS, they have 100 round extended clipazines with underbarrel CHAINSAW attachments!!1! (Obvious joke is obvious, for those who want to take this seriously)
Luan Sagara no backpacks are fine, but these guns have MILITARY slings! They're like normal slings, but they're used to KILL PEOPLE!!1! REEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
ChrisTanGaming yeah, those terrorists use 45mm colt baby-killing bullets on their m1911s, the pistol made for a imperialist country!!!11!!1 if they like guns much to protect themselves, we should get his guns and use them to kill everyone they love because we are liberals, you bigots 1!!!1
Oh wow, A friend of mine who runs a flea market has a Chassepot bayonet or a good copy among his various knives and swords back behind the counyer, and doesn't know what it went to. I was just trying to figure out earlier today what kind of bayonet that was. Maybe I'll buy it from him, it's a very appealing little miniature sword.
Can you do more "Firearms Basics" videos? This channel alone got me into learning about guns and while I've learned so much from your videos, there's a lot of things I'm still trying to piece together like open/closed bolt, different grains of bullets, single/double action, different calibers, etc. Your workshops were really helpful for learning about clips and magazines. I've been wanting to get a .22 long rifle for leisure shooting since everyone has said to start with that, but I don't think I want to make the jump just yet. I know I can look these things up but of what little free time I have around work this channel really relaxes me for the next day and I think you're a great teacher and presenter.
Ian, I learned something the hard way that you can share on a video- The 1891 Mosin Nagant in 7.62X54R is not just a rifle but it is a 'squeezebore' rifle which means you cannot simply buck the end off, clean it up, and expect to have any accuracy. Basically, you can't make a squeezebore into a carbine by cutting it down.
LtJackboot This is false. The regular Mosin Nagant is not a squeeze bore rifle. Now that said, there are Austro-Hungarian wartime captures that were rechambered for 8x50mmR and issued to reserve troops. They retained the original barrel and only modified the chamber, so those few rare guns would qualify as squeeze bore. However, firing 7.62x54R it is not squeeze bore.
Mine was a squeezebore which is why it shot like a turd when I cut 6 inches off the 28 and half inch barrel- or at least that's what the guy at the gun shop said when I told him about it. Totally ruined it, never shot twice at the same spot again.
Not sure if it's been brought up yet, but the "TS" M38 Carcano you showed is actually the M38 short rifle. The M38 TS carbines were the same length as the older M91 TS carbines, but with a simplified fixed rear sight. There were also cavalry variants of the M38, which, like the TS carbines, were basically identical to the older models, just simplified for mass production
Exactly my thoughts when I saw this video. The British troops in Zulu show how the men in different ranks raise or lower themselves (depending on the tactic being employed) to avoid accidental friendly fire in the process, as well as to reduce their profile to enemy attack while staying fixed in the redoubt. Great movie.
I thought another reason for the long traditional rifles and muskets was black powder, which burns longer and needs the long barrel to accelerate the projektile properly. What about that?
Ian, I am curious about the difference in ballistics between the various barrel lengths. I don't suppose you'd like to see, but give it some thought(aka, a good excuse to do so)😉. Maybe they gave the longer rifles to marksman and snipers?
Several books on Italian rifles refer to the folding bayonet carbine as 'carabina cavelleria' [cavalry carbine], the other stocked carbine as the TS [truppe speciale- 'special troops'] and the Modelo 38 as their designated 'short rifle' [the one you referred as the TS]. The original M38 Short Rifle was in 7.35mm caliber, with later versions reverting to 6.5mm [designated 'futile model 91/38 calibro 6,5] due to wartime logistics. The Modelo 1941, a somewhat reversion to Modelo '91. (References: "Italy's Battle Rifle: Story of the Mannlicher-Carcano", "Dal Carcano al FAL", "Il '91" as well as Hobbs book on Carcano.)
Maybe i'm late, but the Carcano TS is the non-cavalry carabine (moschetto in Italian) ; the model 38 war called "fucile corto" so exactly translating short rifle. Still an amazingly wonderfull video!
I'd love to see more of these videos, it's so nice to see you talk about a specific topic and glancing over a lot of guns as examples as opposed to you just talking about a single rifle and going into the gritty details of it's mechanics (Not that I don't like that aswell). Keep up the great work! PS. Thank you for including metric units!
Great explanation video. I have always been fascinated by specialty terms such as light/heavy Cavalry, Dragoons and their Musketoons, Mounted Riflemen, Alpine Troops, Sappers, etc.
Very educational. Love military history. You are an excellent at clarifying and explaining the weapons and reasons for warfare in periods past. Very cool video.
I learned several new things , plus some answers to questions i didn't know i had. Cleared some things up, got an insight into period reasoning, a bit of the military doctrine of a transition era.. Never mind, we 'll "talk " again.
I had to deal with this while making a modular weapon system for a tabletop RPG. My solution was three long arm barrel lengths of Field, Carbine, and Coach, and hand gun barrel lengths of Cavalry, Artillery, and Snub. And, since it's based on the popular image of the wild west there's a bit of grey area for things like Buntline revolvers with coach length barrels or howdah shotguns with artillery length barrels.
Some other things to note even though few people will probably see this 5 years later Reloading on horseback is extremely difficult. This is where mounted infantry (dragoons, although these unit designations were often dubious) come in because they could fire much faster dismounted than mounted. Making the gun much shorter means its much easier to reload on horseback. Further the first adoptions of breech loaders and newer novel actions were typically reserved for the cavalry expressly for the purpose of making reloading on horseback easier and/or increasing the number of volleys that can be fired without having to retreat to reload. Also barrel length was generally much more important for getting ideal velocities with older powder mixes, something much less important with the proliferation of modern gunpowder.
Wow Ian! You just keep pounding out the content!! I really appreciate all your hard work and dedication! I've learned so bloody much about firearms, thanks to your efforts! Cheers!
i learned a lot today. i thought the longer barrels were for accuracy at long range. i thought that the general idea was that battles would be fought over long distance therefore needed long barrels. thanks for teaching me new stuff today ian.
I loved the old Mosin-Nagant M44...that big round would spout a massive gout of fire out of the barrel...very visceral fun in addition to the discipline of shooting!
Thanks for that! I always thought that the long rifle was just for accuracy. I never knew about the infantry ranks thing. I knew that carbines were for troops who needed a more easily handled weapon, but all I knew about was paratroopers, . It never occurred to me that cavalry would have been the origin group. (Most of my military history study has been about WW2.) So thanks for enlightening me!
Thank you , very informative ! Another reason for shorter rifles was improved cartridges , much more efficient bullet shape and improved rifling , ie 1st WW mauser 98 to 2nd WW 98k.
So interesting, genuinely feel like ive learned alot from viewing. Answered alot of questions I had but never took the time to look for answers. Thanks Ian.
Carbine is usually used for a shortened version of an existing contemporary rifle. However, it was often misused, both for new iterations that were a complete replacement (Kar98k) and for entirely different rifles (M1 Carbine).
Oh, we approach organization just as every other problem: Ridiculously overengineer the solution to get both a theoretically perfect product that doesn´t work 65% of the time, as well as maximum confusion in nomenclature and compatibility.
This is really good, it teaches any fundamentals that you were in case. Like I knew most of this, I know plenty about small arms and military history but still there is always something you might have not thought of. Will there be videos about the basics of Artillery guns? anti air craft, naval and other bigger game changing weapons? in this channel every small arm has almost been covered, from the 14th century match locks and wheel locks to the flintlocks, percussion caps, single shot rifles, repeating rifles, semi auto, full auto and even hybrid fire guns! (still want that G11 vid though haha) pistols, smg's and other less dominant fire arms are ofc covered too. I think it would be just awesome to see abit more non-small arms but weapons that were mechanized and were big scale basically. Then it would be just easy and interesting to imagine how every moment of history was changed, influenced, how much energy, engineering and innocent blood has been spelt for the technological achievments we have reached today that allow me to make this comment from thausands of kilomoteres away! The good thing is that today the planet has reached a point almost that we don't need weapons to make change and progress. Historic weapons will be remmemered because our history is binded with them, sometimes you don't know history if you don't know weapons!
The think about Kar98 is that it was less because Germany needed carbine, and more of Versailes treaty limitation, they were prohibited from purchasing new fulsizes rifles, but could purchase carbines.
Great video. As time went on, barrel length was probably influenced by the fact that most smokeless powder charges will fully burn in 20-21" of barrel. Of course nowadays, 20" is considered a short rifle, and carbines are 16" or less. They didn't have chronos of any kind until probably the 1930's, so that is a factor. WW1 put an end to the horse cavalry, as you noted, so there was no need for a long infantry rifle. It looks like the Italians went the long way around the barn to arrive at a short rifle, whereas we had one starting in 1903. Realistically, they could have made it with a 20" barrel and it would have been fine, but there are considerations of recoil and muzzle blast. The later 308 does great out of a 20" barrel of course, because it is burning a smaller amount of slightly faster powder. Ditto for the 223. But it seems like back in the day, tactics drove the design more so than ballistics or ergonomics. Great video as always. Thank you
I am sure it was just a slip of the tongue, but the Italian TS carbine dates back to around 1897, with the original M91TS. This was the one issued to non-cavalry troopers and it became very popular during WWI for trench fighting. It had a 17.7" barrel and after the war, many M91 long rifles were cut down into TS style carbines as the M91/24. Later, new ones would be made as the M91/28 also. In 1938, the M38 pattern was adopted along with the 7.35mm round. It had a 21.5" or so barrel (notes not in front of me ATM) and was probably the closest the Italians ever came to a true short rifle. They also did a M38TS and M38 Cavalry carbine, both with 17.7" barrels. Heck, there was even a version in 8mm Mauser as the M38S. Finally, the M40 prototype evolved into the M41 with roughly a 27.5" barrel, which yep put it right outside of being a short rifle. I jokingly call it a short, long infantry rifle hehe. They would build these until at least 1944, where as most carbine production seems to ahve ended in 1943. Both would remain in service after WWII though. So yep...a big hot, fascinating mess. I was lucky enough to meet the only Carcano collector in all of Arkansas (probably hehe) when I was young, so got interested myself, cheers.
(In italian Special Troops is "Truppe Speciali", the E in "Truppe" is like the first one in Television, "Speciali" is pronounced "Spe-Cha-lee" and again, the E is pronounced like I mentioned previously.)
Wery interesting and informative as usual! I've never heard about the term carbine as coming from the Fensches. In Sweden we named short rifles for the cavalery as 'Karbin' (=Carbine, short rifle) back in the 1500 century because they used a carabiner and and a sling to carry the rifle while riding. We still use the word for a short rifle aswell for AR. The standard AR in Sweden is called Ak5 (=automatkarbin - automatic carbine). In the more simplified military terminology in Sweden we never call anything that uses a pistol cartridge for a carbine, it's either a pistol or submachinegun only. If the firearm use a rifle (or AR) cartridge it belongs to the rifle part of fire arms (rifles, carbines, machineguns and AR's). The only common/widely used fire arm I know that not fits in the Swedish military terminology is the MA1 Carbine.
I would love a video about the history of bolt actions. Why is the Mauser style the one that almost all modern bolt guns are based on? What made the Mauser 98 so much better than the earlier bolt actions? Why did the Enfield action fall out of favor? What changes were made to the Mauser action that brings it to where it is today?
That was great, Ian. Could you include a demonstration of the rifle stacking rods and the way various army’s implemented them in the field, in a upcoming video? I haven’t seen many videos on that topic and I think a lot of us would find that interesting. Thx
I tend to class the intermediate or short rifles as “bolt battle rifles.” This distinguishes them from their mid to late WWII semiautomatic rifles of similar length, while describing their purpose. They’re not “line infantry rifles” but they aren’t carbines either. That’s just how I keep it straight anyway.
A modern military "long" rifle is 20" and a modern "carbine" is 14" to 16" with special purpose close quarter rifles having between and 10" and 12" barrels. It shows how military priorities have shifted since WW2.
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It amuses me that firearm overall lengths have shrunk down enough over the course of history that guns we today consider full-length rifles would appear carbine-sized to our forebears.
We've recently broken reliance on sight radius of iron sights.
Which means rifles are gonna get a lot shorter, since that was the only thing besides gun dogma that was keeping barrels long(along with blast from strict suppressor regulations).
The only way rifles will get longer is if AP suddenly becomes a primary concern... Which will probably just lead back to 308 or something.
Pistols have been around for a long time, there is more to consider in rifle length than sight radius.
@@mytech6779 That's the point.
You *don't* have to consider sight radius anymore.
This is a recent change.
A 9 or 10 inch barrel is just as accurate in unsupported shooting as a 20 inch barrel if both are equal in sights, which is now true.
The myth of inaccuracy from shorter guns is what has kept barrels long primarily.
@@mytech6779 I should have mentioned the NFA basically using force to keep barrels long (so long that even a 14.5" standard barrel is illicit off the shelf).
I also should have mentioned the SIG braces coming in and making pistols viable, but nothing was stopping us from doing braces before.
The "game changer" was red dots.
Red dots put sbrs on equal footing with long rifles for all practical purposes, and this is why the the popularity came.
Only dogma left to kill now is BS about ballistics, on how an 8" barreled 556 is "ineffective," despite putting out as much energy as a 44magnum with the right loads, except obviously having a trajectory that doesnt drop like a rock.
So true. M-14 7.62x51 NATO 22" barrel but o/a length includes flash suppressor. M16 series 20". But M-4 carbine 14.5 inches .... below the 16-17". But who needs a long sight radius when you've got optical & red dot sights or NVDs? Only for backup when the battery dies or lense caked with mud.
Could you make a Firearms Basics about ammunition? I am always baffled by their variety in length, diameter, shape...
Yeah, another video similar to Ian talked about lebel ammunition would be great.
Yeah, I've always wanted to know about terms like caliber, grain etc.
Giloup92
I think the diameters and lenghts vary from country to country so that the enemy couldn't immidiately use captured guns and/or amunition
Totally want to see that too!
Dank Bullet It goes the other way around too : I have the same ammunition as the ennemy, so I can use their weapons and ammunition.
I think another important factor to the length of the musket is reloading. If you put a musket on the floor, the average grown man will be comfortably be capable of steading the gun just underneath the bayonet, and the charging rod will not strain your arm upon insertion or removal. The length of the musket is ideal for standing reloads.
Make it shorter, and you'll either have to hunch over or grab the gun by the bayonet, which make the gun less stable and risks unseating the bayonet. Make it longer, and you will strain your arm trying to insert the charging rod.
Furthermore, I think the length of the carbine is also significantly influenced by the saddle; in fact, most carbines are as long as they can be before stuffing it in a saddle strap becomes either an issue for the horse or for the rider.
That standing reloads, involves an idealized length, while the excessive length can be better for certain applications. This is a matter of application-specific design.
plausible. I always though it had to do with the burn rate of a black powder charge vs. smokeless, i.e., you ideally want the charge of the cartridge to just have burned off the moment the projectile leaves the muzzle, so you get the most acceleration out of it, avoid wasting powder in a huge muzzle flash, or losing velocity on friction during dropping barrel pressure
Absolutely. Carbines are short because reloading a 5 foot muzzle-loading weapon on horseback would be tricky for sure, especially if the barrel were hot. And then you have the problem of stowing it while riding.
I feel like this is just an excuse for Ian to show us his extensive gun collection to make us jealous
And what is wrong with that? heh
Well it worked
Agreed.
Though I’m definitely fine with that!
Yes, jealous enough that you buy some from him. Derp.
Yeah, but I can't really blame him. If I had a collection like that, I'd definitely be itching to show it off as well...
It would be interesting to have a followup video covering the later evolution post WWII. The M16 with the "full length" 20" barrel being _shorter_ than the cavalry carbines of the 1890s, the AK47/74 "rifles" with 16" barrels, and how the mass adoption of bullpups changes the relationship between barrel length and overall length compared to traditional designs.
The AK was designed to be a replacement for a sub machine gun. The SKS was a carbine rifle.
@@joecary3586 well the 74s were meant to be rifles, but the 47 was meant to be a smg replacement but ofc the soviets just decided to use the 47 as a rifle instead of having the SKS which was a good idea, as the chinese who kept the SKS as a main rifle and the AK as a SMG lost to Vietnam, (after the american war with vietnam) and China lost due to Vietnam having a sort of modern military that was equipped like the soviets with regular infantry all armed with AKs, and/or whatever they got from South Vietnam that NATO gifted.
@@sonjagrey321 I'm going to need you to take your pills Ms. Sonja
Ian has it occurred to you yet? that if you continue doing this for the rest of your life. You could become one of the most well-known names in the firearms industry. Lol just a thought! I've been watching your channel since the machine gun intro years ago. Your channel has grown so large that my friends that know absolutely nothing about guns know who you are! Truly remarkable
AdrenalineJunkieXL of course your friends know who he is! Gun Jesus is here to save us all!
I know nothing about guns, but Ian is very good at history and engineering explanations and very low on typical gun-nut stuff.
I have learned a lot, and really enjoy episodes like this, that teach me the basics.
Welcome to mid-2021.
@vettelover2009 yeah its because he sends guns to God by dry firing them to death.
By the time the third rank of the Mosin-Nagant troops fire, the first rank would have been able to cycle their stuck bolt with the hammer they carry on their belt just for that purpose.
KaiserSchnitzel I’m guessing the same kind of approach works on Russian issued tanks and Rifles... hammer is a universal Tool, and when in need, every tool is a hammer..
I recall reading of a Russian manual that had a section on kicking open a stick Mosin bolt whist standing on the rifle.
@@SmilingDevil Considering his their overall efforts in Ukraine have gone, this seems plausible.
One of the early Russian tanks was equipped with a hammer for operating the gear shift when it got stuck.
First line in every Russian military request for proposal:
All equipment produced must be repairable with hammer or large rock. No exceptions!
I've split it as follows:
Over 30" = Long rifle
26"-30" = Rifle
22"-26" = Short rifle
< 22" = Carbine
Of course that's only for historical weapons. Today 20" is a long rifle.
Today, 20" is rifle, 15-18" is typically considered mid length, 12-15" is carbine, 11" and less is short barelled rifle, and at somewhere around 6" would be considered a pistol. None of this is definitive, but pretty close if I recall. I'd say a "long rifle" would only apply in this day and age to most sniper rifles with a 22-26" barrel. I'd by no means consider 20" a long rifle.
I have a Winchester model 70 light weight carbine in .270 caliber,bought it back 1984.
Is that marcus?
@@Shinigami13133 it is Marcus
I don’t really see why a distinction between a rifle and a “long rifle” is necessary.
Firing in ranks with a modern bolt-action smokeless rifle must have done a number on the front rank guys ears
WHAAT?!
That’s the first thing I thought too. Doubt they issued hearing protection lol
@@supercuttlefish1 It's surprisingly effective actually. The main cons compared to proper earplugs isn't in sound attenuation but in comfort and because it causes everything to sound muddy rather than flatly attenuated.
Maybe not enough to protect your hearing from constant rifle fire next to your shoulders, but definitely helps quite a bit.
@@pubcollize intressting! Than you!
@@simoneriksson8329 If you're gonna try it, I recommend rolling a wad of tissue paper, actually. Cotton sheds fibers, other than that similar results.
Pfffft, I don't even need to watch the video:
Rifle
Riiiifle
And Riiiiiiifle.
xaxaxa
I think you forgot the most important one.
The Rfl.
I remember taking my mosing nagant rifle and making it a R by cutting the hole barrel
Gun
Further Gun
True Gun
BULLY!
Zaiko LeBolsh whole plus you mean garbage rod
Also, long barrels were needed on black powder guns because black powder didn't expand as quickly as smokeless powder so you needed a longer barrel to accelerate the bullet
Musketoon is a fun word. Musketoooooon.
Musketoon is the typical English mangling of the French Mousqueton which means little musket. The English stopped using it by the 19th century but the Americans hung on to the old English mangled musketoon.
Roll up on a ni**a with dat musketoon homie
Looney Musketoons?
A judoon platoon armed with musketoon on the moon
GORN
Your delivery is so articulate, concise, well-informed and often amusing that I have, in a very short period of time, gone from knowing virtually nothing about firearms and ammunition to knowing enough to impress someone that knows less than I originally did.
Thank you for your good work.
The Australian Light Horse used similar tactics to the Dragoons. Experience showed that riding horses into machine guns was a really bad tactic. The Light Horse would ride at speed to the conflict, get off their horses and then fight. A couple of members of the light horse would then take the horses to a position of safety. They could then later retreat at speed if it did not go well, easily reposition their troops, or adopt hit and run tactics.
This was a well established pattern that the Australian Lighthorsemen used to their advantage against the Ottoman Turks at the Battle of Beersheba.
When the Turks saw the approaching Lighthorse they decided to wait until they dismounted before firing. But the Aussies just charged. By the time the Turks realised their mistake it was already too late.
It was one of the last successful cavalry charges in history.
@@codysodyssey3818 - they have actually made several movies with the charge being the highlight. By this stage in the war, sabre and lance charges on horses had almost completely disappeared due to machine guns. The Aussies were very lucky as the Turks assumed that they would dismount. They actually got under the machine gun and artillery sights.
At the smallest level in US dragoon units, you have a pair of four-man teams. Each team is comprised of a leader, a trooper, a scout, and a _handler._ The job of the handler was to mind the reins of his horse and that of the other three when they dismounted. So 75% of a dragoon formation is freed from the burden of minding the horses as they fought.
@historyGeek I will be that guy and point out that it wasn't riding into machineguns that was bad (cavalry did this alot in ww1 and ww2 with very low casualties) but riding into mortar/artillery fire. Machineguns on their own were very ineffective against mounted cavalry.
The misconception comes from the fact most positions with defensive artillery/mortars also had machineguns.
@@matthiuskoenig3378 - this is the third attempt to reply to you. TH-cam is playing games again...
.
The interesting point is that artillery and mortars killed more soldiers in WW1 than did bullets. Helmets were introduced to protect soldiers from shrapnel, not bullets. Trenches were built in a zig zag manner to limit the number of deaths when a shell exploded in a trench. WW1 became known as the war with trenches, machine guns, and artillery. New techniques of fighting including the creeping barrage were introduced (moving the artillery so that the bombardment moved with the troops so that they could inch forward.
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There were also challenges with artillery. They had issues destroying barbed wire with artillery. The Germans implemented deep fortifications under their trenches so that their soldiers could rest in a dry place, unlike the British who survived in rat holes dug into the dirt. These deep fortifications protected their troops as well as providing sleeping quarters, a mess for eating, and sometimes hospital facilities. There was also a huge shortage of shells at the beginning of the war. The other issue was the lack of coordination between the artillery and infantry charges. The artillery would pound on German defences but the Germans would just go underground into the cement fortifications. At the end of the bombardment, they would re-enter the trenches and then shoot at the advancing infantry. The eventual solution was the creeping barrage, tanks, and digging under their trenches (hill 60) and placing explosives under their trenches.
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Fixed fortifications were even designed so that they could fire shrapnel shots at their own bunkers and pill boxes to stop infantry from climbing onto the bunkers. Seems crazy to shoot at your own side (excluding friendly fire from the Yanks of course).
There were even two types of shorter Mosin's - Dragoon and Cossak. The difference was the Dragoon's was issued with bayonet and zeroed with bayonet attached (same as Infantry version), and Cossak's was issued without bayonet and zeroed without it.
Huh
cossacks being supposed to fire from horseback, then?
@@paavobergmann4920 Yep. And dragoons were traveling by horse but fighting on foot.
This video is 3 years old now and, something I love about this channel is that I will never be out of content, there's always something to watch. Also Ian will never run out of content for sure
I thought a main reason for a longer barrel is increased muzzle velocity and range/accuracy. You hinted at improved accuracy, but only as related to sight radius.
That’s more of a factor during the days of black powder. But by the times that Ian is talking about in this video advances in smokeless powder, cartridges, etc. more than compensated for the decreases in barrel length.
There’s a severe case of diminishing returns when talking about barrel length in regards to muzzle velocity. A slightly higher muzzle velocity and marginally more accurate weapon just don’t outweigh the drawbacks of a heavier, more material expensive, harder to carry and store, and more awkward to handle weapon.
@askthepaperclip......The idea of long rifle is old one where slow burn powder will slowly groom the ball for far distance without leaving pressure in the chamber & barrel!
Another consideration for short rifles and carbines is the lesser material requirements. When you're equipping an army of tens or hundreds of thousands, you can get significantly more guns.
Hasn't stopped them Ruskies before
Also easier to bore out a shorter barrel.
Here in South Africa is a shop called Jasmyn. In the books section of the boer war is an incredible sight. An original german mauser 98 cavalry carbine used in the boer war and miraculously survibed I know that there is only a handfull of that rifles left in the world
Wild
The Boer wars were really very early for a 98 cavalry carbine to have appeared. Could it be that it was a weapon used by german forces in the Herero wars in German South West Africa between 1904-08, and maybe migrated further south east during the occupation of the region by South Africa starting in 1915.
Imperial Russia's need for a dragoon rifle sprang from their use of Cossacks as cavalry, who mostly fought from horseback and were still using sabers to slash enemy soldiers into the First World War, before the lines hardened and trench warfare established itself in the east.
Put this question in the search bar was a bit discouraged until I saw forgotten weapons and I knew it was going to be simple clean and clear-cut
I have always wanted videos like this from you. Can't imagine anyone being better at videos on firearms basics.
I came for gun lengths, stayed for the metric.
Extremely articulate . I wasn't even interested in this subject, but continued watching because this was so well presented. Thank you for the video.
good overview
Damn..
And I thought the SMLE
Had a Short Magazine
Thanks
which is why punctuation is important..... ;o)
That Italian TS was amazingly beautiful. I've never seen a bolt action and thought it so spectacular. I'd love a patterned alike one in 5.56. Really cool
LOL I always heard it as 'Short Magazine' Lee Enfield, and not Short, Magazine Lee Enfield.
A common error but pretty obviously wrong, most contemporary bolt actions had 5 round magazines while the SMLE holds 10, if the magazine was being referenced it would more accurately be called the 'long magazine' Lee Enfield.
WalkaCrookedLine 'What I heard', meaning inflection.
"Rifle, Short, Magazine, Lee-Enfield," is the correct nomenclature.
Dick Holman I am not arguing the nomenclature, but laughing over how I misheard it.
No worries, no offence meant or taken. ;)
Thanks for fancinating me on a daily basis!
I think you'll find it's pronounced "Carbine", not "Carbine".
th-cam.com/video/Vg2fSD2Vl58/w-d-xo.html Already covered in another video last week
I disagree, "Carbine" is obviously the correct pronunciation, not "Carbine" and anyone who disagrees is a idiot.
You would disagree. You're one of those people who says "Carbine" when everyone knows it's pronounced "Carbine".
Hmmm a troll post methinks
Michael Parsonage or a joke?
The Russians are always...a little bit different.
Jacob Eberhardt it's because they don't have thumbs
Torin Jones Fucking...lol
Jacob Eberhardt years of inbreeding for you
Oh you have no idea lol, try living in Russia and being married to one.
Laenthal isn't it beautiful that all those people in the huge landmass can crossbreed and say CYKA BLYAT. Together.
Love the new format! A series of videos like this, or a breakdown of "classic" firearms, would be really cool.
Finally. A whole bunch of guns I can legally own in Australia without too much hassle.
These guns are fully automatic 1000000000000RPM 20mm machine guns with dangerous military SLINGS, they have 100 round extended clipazines with underbarrel CHAINSAW attachments!!1!
(Obvious joke is obvious, for those who want to take this seriously)
ChrisTanGaming
That was art
ChrisTanGaming what is the deal with the slings? Shouldnt they try to ban backpacks?
Luan Sagara no backpacks are fine, but these guns have MILITARY slings! They're like normal slings, but they're used to KILL PEOPLE!!1! REEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
ChrisTanGaming yeah, those terrorists use 45mm colt baby-killing bullets on their m1911s, the pistol made for a imperialist country!!!11!!1 if they like guns much to protect themselves, we should get his guns and use them to kill everyone they love because we are liberals, you bigots 1!!!1
Oh wow, A friend of mine who runs a flea market has a Chassepot bayonet or a good copy among his various knives and swords back behind the counyer, and doesn't know what it went to. I was just trying to figure out earlier today what kind of bayonet that was.
Maybe I'll buy it from him, it's a very appealing little miniature sword.
Can you do more "Firearms Basics" videos? This channel alone got me into learning about guns and while I've learned so much from your videos, there's a lot of things I'm still trying to piece together like open/closed bolt, different grains of bullets, single/double action, different calibers, etc. Your workshops were really helpful for learning about clips and magazines. I've been wanting to get a .22 long rifle for leisure shooting since everyone has said to start with that, but I don't think I want to make the jump just yet.
I know I can look these things up but of what little free time I have around work this channel really relaxes me for the next day and I think you're a great teacher and presenter.
Ian, I learned something the hard way that you can share on a video- The 1891 Mosin Nagant in 7.62X54R is not just a rifle but it is a 'squeezebore' rifle which means you cannot simply buck the end off, clean it up, and expect to have any accuracy. Basically, you can't make a squeezebore into a carbine by cutting it down.
LtJackboot This is false. The regular Mosin Nagant is not a squeeze bore rifle.
Now that said, there are Austro-Hungarian wartime captures that were rechambered for 8x50mmR and issued to reserve troops. They retained the original barrel and only modified the chamber, so those few rare guns would qualify as squeeze bore.
However, firing 7.62x54R it is not squeeze bore.
You probably can safely whack off the 2" or so of counterbore a fair amount of them have though.
GunFun ZS he said....wack off two inches lol
Mine was a squeezebore which is why it shot like a turd when I cut 6 inches off the 28 and half inch barrel- or at least that's what the guy at the gun shop said when I told him about it. Totally ruined it, never shot twice at the same spot again.
Easy solution: don’t chop up military rifles.
Not sure if it's been brought up yet, but the "TS" M38 Carcano you showed is actually the M38 short rifle. The M38 TS carbines were the same length as the older M91 TS carbines, but with a simplified fixed rear sight. There were also cavalry variants of the M38, which, like the TS carbines, were basically identical to the older models, just simplified for mass production
Ah, volley fire...accuracy by volume.
Solar_Empire quantity has a quality all of its own.
You cant miss if you hit everything
The movie Zulu was a good representation of volley fire against mass attacks.
So satisfying.
FIRE!
Exactly my thoughts when I saw this video. The British troops in Zulu show how the men in different ranks raise or lower themselves (depending on the tactic being employed) to avoid accidental friendly fire in the process, as well as to reduce their profile to enemy attack while staying fixed in the redoubt. Great movie.
One of the main reasons the machine was shorter was the ease and speed with which it could be drawn from the rifle holster attached to the saddle.
Wasn't another reason for long barrels the fact that longer barrels would usually give better long-range accuracy?
I love these tutorial video's. Thank you for the lesson.
I thought another reason for the long traditional rifles and muskets was black powder, which burns longer and needs the long barrel to accelerate the projektile properly. What about that?
Incredibly informative, great video Ian-always look forward to your stuff
Ian, I am curious about the difference in ballistics between the various barrel lengths. I don't suppose you'd like to see, but give it some thought(aka, a good excuse to do so)😉. Maybe they gave the longer rifles to marksman and snipers?
I really enjoy your videos, almost always catches my attention. Thank you sir!
Several books on Italian rifles refer to the folding bayonet carbine as 'carabina cavelleria' [cavalry carbine], the other stocked carbine as the TS [truppe speciale- 'special troops'] and the Modelo 38 as their designated 'short rifle' [the one you referred as the TS]. The original M38 Short Rifle was in 7.35mm caliber, with later versions reverting to 6.5mm [designated 'futile model 91/38 calibro 6,5] due to wartime logistics. The Modelo 1941, a somewhat reversion to Modelo '91.
(References: "Italy's Battle Rifle: Story of the Mannlicher-Carcano", "Dal Carcano al FAL", "Il '91" as well as Hobbs book on Carcano.)
You probably have the best job in the world. Great video as always :)
Maybe i'm late, but the Carcano TS is the non-cavalry carabine (moschetto in Italian) ; the model 38 war called "fucile corto" so exactly translating short rifle.
Still an amazingly wonderfull video!
I think that we need more of videos like this. Explaining some basics and roots of certain solutions.
I'd love to see more of these videos, it's so nice to see you talk about a specific topic and glancing over a lot of guns as examples as opposed to you just talking about a single rifle and going into the gritty details of it's mechanics (Not that I don't like that aswell). Keep up the great work!
PS. Thank you for including metric units!
Great explanation video. I have always been fascinated by specialty terms such as light/heavy Cavalry, Dragoons and their Musketoons, Mounted Riflemen, Alpine Troops, Sappers, etc.
Very educational. Love military history. You are an excellent at clarifying and explaining the weapons and reasons for warfare in periods past. Very cool video.
The Italians found it difficult pinch girls' arses while carrying a full length rifle, apparently.
That's always been a problem for me.
It is Indeed a problema. It keeps getting off the shoulder. A vero problema.
Luca Calì 😄😄😄
Priorities Ian, priorities.
That must've been so gratifying; being able to do this with your own rifles. Boils down to the core of Forgotten Weapons. Good stuff!
I learned several new things , plus some answers to questions i didn't know i had. Cleared some things up, got an insight into period reasoning, a bit of the military doctrine of a transition era..
Never mind, we 'll "talk " again.
I had to deal with this while making a modular weapon system for a tabletop RPG. My solution was three long arm barrel lengths of Field, Carbine, and Coach, and hand gun barrel lengths of Cavalry, Artillery, and Snub. And, since it's based on the popular image of the wild west there's a bit of grey area for things like Buntline revolvers with coach length barrels or howdah shotguns with artillery length barrels.
Some other things to note even though few people will probably see this 5 years later
Reloading on horseback is extremely difficult. This is where mounted infantry (dragoons, although these unit designations were often dubious) come in because they could fire much faster dismounted than mounted. Making the gun much shorter means its much easier to reload on horseback. Further the first adoptions of breech loaders and newer novel actions were typically reserved for the cavalry expressly for the purpose of making reloading on horseback easier and/or increasing the number of volleys that can be fired without having to retreat to reload.
Also barrel length was generally much more important for getting ideal velocities with older powder mixes, something much less important with the proliferation of modern gunpowder.
Dude, you are knowledgable as f*&k. Love the channel. Keep up the great work.
Wow Ian! You just keep pounding out the content!! I really appreciate all your hard work and dedication! I've learned so bloody much about firearms, thanks to your efforts! Cheers!
Excellent presentation, knowledgable and concise. Worthy subscription.
i learned a lot today. i thought the longer barrels were for accuracy at long range. i thought that the general idea was that battles would be fought over long distance therefore needed long barrels. thanks for teaching me new stuff today ian.
Great video! You really have a legacy of a huge video encyclopedia of firearms!
The long barrel on older rifles had the advantage of higher muzzle velocity when loaded with black powder.
This is very helpful. Thank you for the explanations.
I enjoyed this video. Please explain calibres next
I loved the old Mosin-Nagant M44...that big round would spout a massive gout of fire out of the barrel...very visceral fun in addition to the discipline of shooting!
Good work, man. Your videos are very helpful to me in my writing.
"Nice one Ian! "Volley by ranks" and "Fire and Advance" both have excellent demonstrations in the film "Zulu" btw.
Wow, so nice! Would you like to do a video of different Ammunitions as well? This was very informative :)
Thanks for that! I always thought that the long rifle was just for accuracy. I never knew about the infantry ranks thing. I knew that carbines were for troops who needed a more easily handled weapon, but all I knew about was paratroopers, . It never occurred to me that cavalry would have been the origin group. (Most of my military history study has been about WW2.) So thanks for enlightening me!
Very historic and very informative about the rifles development 👏
Outstanding video, I always learn so much from you, Ty Ian!
Your the man.... thank you for the amazing informative material on a regular basis. By far my Favorite TH-cam-er.
I like this sort of video where you talk about guns in a more general sense
Thank you , very informative ! Another reason for shorter rifles was improved cartridges , much more efficient bullet shape and improved rifling , ie 1st WW mauser 98 to 2nd WW 98k.
Always worth watching your videos.
So interesting, genuinely feel like ive learned alot from viewing. Answered alot of questions I had but never took the time to look for answers. Thanks Ian.
Carbine is usually used for a shortened version of an existing contemporary rifle. However, it was often misused, both for new iterations that were a complete replacement (Kar98k) and for entirely different rifles (M1 Carbine).
You know shit's complicated when the Germans have a hard time organizing it
Oh, we approach organization just as every other problem: Ridiculously overengineer the solution to get both a theoretically perfect product that doesn´t work 65% of the time, as well as maximum confusion in nomenclature and compatibility.
This is my collection area which are Mauser and Mosin Nagant. I love these rifles but I did learn a lot from your video.
This is really good, it teaches any fundamentals that you were in case. Like I knew most of this, I know plenty about small arms and military history but still there is always something you might have not thought of. Will there be videos about the basics of Artillery guns? anti air craft, naval and other bigger game changing weapons? in this channel every small arm has almost been covered, from the 14th century match locks and wheel locks to the flintlocks, percussion caps, single shot rifles, repeating rifles, semi auto, full auto and even hybrid fire guns! (still want that G11 vid though haha) pistols, smg's and other less dominant fire arms are ofc covered too.
I think it would be just awesome to see abit more non-small arms but weapons that were mechanized and were big scale basically. Then it would be just easy and interesting to imagine how every moment of history was changed, influenced, how much energy, engineering and innocent blood has been spelt for the technological achievments we have reached today that allow me to make this comment from thausands of kilomoteres away! The good thing is that today the planet has reached a point almost that we don't need weapons to make change and progress. Historic weapons will be remmemered because our history is binded with them, sometimes you don't know history if you don't know weapons!
Lots of great information in this video! Thanks Ian!
While you’re at it can you do a video and explain the nomenclature behind clip and magazine. Seems people still haven’t gotten that one down
The think about Kar98 is that it was less because Germany needed carbine, and more of Versailes treaty limitation, they were prohibited from purchasing new fulsizes rifles, but could purchase carbines.
Great video. As time went on, barrel length was probably influenced by the fact that most smokeless powder charges will fully burn in 20-21" of barrel. Of course nowadays, 20" is considered a short rifle, and carbines are 16" or less. They didn't have chronos of any kind until probably the 1930's, so that is a factor. WW1 put an end to the horse cavalry, as you noted, so there was no need for a long infantry rifle. It looks like the Italians went the long way around the barn to arrive at a short rifle, whereas we had one starting in 1903. Realistically, they could have made it with a 20" barrel and it would have been fine, but there are considerations of recoil and muzzle blast. The later 308 does great out of a 20" barrel of course, because it is burning a smaller amount of slightly faster powder. Ditto for the 223. But it seems like back in the day, tactics drove the design more so than ballistics or ergonomics. Great video as always. Thank you
I am sure it was just a slip of the tongue, but the Italian TS carbine dates back to around 1897, with the original M91TS. This was the one issued to non-cavalry troopers and it became very popular during WWI for trench fighting. It had a 17.7" barrel and after the war, many M91 long rifles were cut down into TS style carbines as the M91/24. Later, new ones would be made as the M91/28 also.
In 1938, the M38 pattern was adopted along with the 7.35mm round. It had a 21.5" or so barrel (notes not in front of me ATM) and was probably the closest the Italians ever came to a true short rifle. They also did a M38TS and M38 Cavalry carbine, both with 17.7" barrels. Heck, there was even a version in 8mm Mauser as the M38S.
Finally, the M40 prototype evolved into the M41 with roughly a 27.5" barrel, which yep put it right outside of being a short rifle. I jokingly call it a short, long infantry rifle hehe. They would build these until at least 1944, where as most carbine production seems to ahve ended in 1943. Both would remain in service after WWII though. So yep...a big hot, fascinating mess. I was lucky enough to meet the only Carcano collector in all of Arkansas (probably hehe) when I was young, so got interested myself, cheers.
(In italian Special Troops is "Truppe Speciali", the E in "Truppe" is like the first one in Television, "Speciali" is pronounced "Spe-Cha-lee" and again, the E is pronounced like I mentioned previously.)
Wery interesting and informative as usual!
I've never heard about the term carbine as coming from the Fensches. In Sweden we named short rifles for the cavalery as 'Karbin' (=Carbine, short rifle) back in the 1500 century because they used a carabiner and and a sling to carry the rifle while riding. We still use the word for a short rifle aswell for AR. The standard AR in Sweden is called Ak5 (=automatkarbin - automatic carbine).
In the more simplified military terminology in Sweden we never call anything that uses a pistol cartridge for a carbine, it's either a pistol or submachinegun only. If the firearm use a rifle (or AR) cartridge it belongs to the rifle part of fire arms (rifles, carbines, machineguns and AR's). The only common/widely used fire arm I know that not fits in the Swedish military terminology is the MA1 Carbine.
I would love a video about the history of bolt actions. Why is the Mauser style the one that almost all modern bolt guns are based on? What made the Mauser 98 so much better than the earlier bolt actions? Why did the Enfield action fall out of favor? What changes were made to the Mauser action that brings it to where it is today?
That was great, Ian. Could you include a demonstration of the rifle stacking rods and the way various army’s implemented them in the field, in a upcoming video? I haven’t seen many videos on that topic and I think a lot of us would find that interesting. Thx
I tend to class the intermediate or short rifles as “bolt battle rifles.” This distinguishes them from their mid to late WWII semiautomatic rifles of similar length, while describing their purpose. They’re not “line infantry rifles” but they aren’t carbines either. That’s just how I keep it straight anyway.
Carbines were a mistake.
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.
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You can't joust with a carbine.
Lobert E. Ree do you wanna try?
YES, THIS!
I always learn something watching your channel, thanks
Great video. I really enjoy stuff like this. Keep up the good work.
Always check piles of 91/30s. I found an 1897 Izhevsk Dragoon that had been refurbed into a 91/30 a few years back.
Thank you. I would really enjoy more Firearm Basics.
I hope this guy makes a lot of money doing what he does, he is a fucking genius with the weapons. He's also actually a fairly great speaker too.
A modern military "long" rifle is 20" and a modern "carbine" is 14" to 16" with special purpose close quarter rifles having between and 10" and 12" barrels. It shows how military priorities have shifted since WW2.
Great presentation