Ghost galaxy worry me. They've needed serious reining in by the community at every turn so far. I don't know why they can't just take a beat and supply keyforge for five minutes before going batshit and reinventing the wheel. Everything they announce feels like an upper-management spitballing session rather than a developed idea
I remember them saying something along the lines of, "Not everything we're gonna do is make you all happy, but bear with us." I figured that would apply to maybe one or two things moving forward, but I definitely see where you're coming from, it seems like a lot of things have been this way. . .
Thanks for bringing this out to our attention as I was unaware of these decks being passed on the tour and I also agree it is extremely unfair to us that are overseas, unless purchased through second hand, there’s no way to acquire these . I hope GG bans from tournaments or atleast makes it accessible to us overseas .
This is something reminiscent of Crush Card Virus being a prize card at Shonen Jump Championship 2007. Only 6 people had the most influential card in the format and everyone had to cope with that. Probably they will acknowledge this and maybe chose to make them legal only in certain formats or something like that, at least I hope so!
Cosmetically exclusive things are awesome! Functionally exclusive things are bogus. Being at a competitive disadvantage isn't a big deal to me personally because I can't afford to compete, but it makes me feel increasingly disconnected with the game.
I think this is merely growing pains and to be expected from a new game. Just a bump in the road that they'll iron out. It might take fan push-back but everyone has the same end goal: make the Keyforge gaming experience the best it can be. I also agree with you about some exclusivity being a good thing. Rewarding the most diehard fans is good for business and the fans.
Yes, I certainly hope these are just some early bumps in the road! I'm confident that even though things have still been pretty shaky, things will get more stable as time goes on.
That tank deck doesnt look all that powerful as it has low creature control and aember control. Considering that new sets seem to have better cards these days (including better ratioes of board wipes, amber control, creature ratio, artifact control, and deck speed), these decks will likely never be consistant or stand up to main set decks. I think its cool, especially for people who are budget on keyfordge, cause everyone really only probably gets one of these decks in their lives (not many at least due to exclusivity). Also it fits the theme of keyfordge perfectly as its quite annoying to play against competative decks and all of them haveing the same strong cards. This opens up the possibily of strong decks that are unique from meta deck themes. (Although once again due to their exclusivenes thatll probably never happen.) Personally this really excites me about going to a vault tour and getting my hands on a truely unique deck unlike and unexpectily unsimilar than anyother deck to which i can call my own. I dont see a reason to get so mad at GG. Put it simply they just made decks that have more variety.
Agree that the intentions here are good, GG just wants to stir up excitement for VTs. I think you hit the nail on the head here. The decks are too exclusive to be tournament viable. Either make the decks illegal for tournaments (like unchained decks), or make the decks only a cosmetic effect (like savior decks).
And there are all sorts of other cool options for drawing people to VTs, like unique pins or card sleeves or even cosmetic changes to decks like you said!
Yeah, so for DoK, there's a Patreon tier that allows you to create theoretical decks, and another tier that let's you preview WoE SAS scores early; someone else with access to both those tiers actually threw that deck together, based off a Vault Master deck called The Childish Vault Master of Nanmaa (pic at 2:42), but since it's not scanned into the MV or DoK yet, someone had to manually construct it to see what it would've been rated (and they were able to preview the scores early at their Patreon level). Here's a link to the decklist, although if you're not a DoK supporter at the preview-score tier, you may not be able to see its score or stats or anything like that until DoK official release WoE scores. Then it should change and you'll see the 105 SAS score! Or the actual deck itself will be scanned into the MV by then lol -- sorry for the convoluted answer! :) decksofkeyforge.com/theoretical-decks/0573a40f-e9aa-43a1-adff-937173651d98
Since the prerelease for North America is the day after tomorrow, I have a nice idea for a video. You could make a tier list of GGs customers. Obviously North American players, who backed the campaign and wanted English decks, are tier 1. Players, who backed the campaign, wanted English decks, but live in Asia are tier 2. Then there are players who didn't back, but already get retail release in north America. Then players, who didn't back, but want English decks in Europe, who get their retail release a little later. And so on. I would be in the tier of players who backed the campaign, live in Europe and want their decks in their native language. So I'm probably tier 6 or 7 (the kind of customer, they don't care about at all). Retail release in Europe is mid of September. I'm pretty sure I won't have received my pledge by then. If you can't tell by now, I'm pretty pissed.
Yes I don't find this new type of deck useful in tournaments either but what is the beauty of KeyForge that hasn't been addressed? It doesn't matter how strong a deck is, keyword is chains. Through chains you can solve these problems accordingly
They should make vault masters legal for their OWN tournament, like you can ONLY join the vault masters 2023 tournament with VM23 decks, aside from the "normal" tournaments
It's sad that it is unlikely any official Keyforge events will be here. Vault Decks could be it's own cathegory imho. Just like possible Unchained tournaments.
Yeah I was asking myself, if VM decks end up not being allowed in competitive play, where then would people get to play them aside from casually? VM-deck-specific tournaments could probably be a good option, like Unchained tournaments, like you're saying!
The odds of someone pulling an amazing Vault deck aren't that high. Only one per person per vault. IMO I don't see this being a problem, seems like a fun idea, GG being creative.
If I knew I was going into a tournament against a deck that's fundamentally different from any deck I have normal access to; I wouldn't participate in that event. I appreciate the desire to make your most committed fans feel special with an admittedly awesome deck concept. But for a normie like me it's Mars-inating.
Keyforge needs to bring new players into the game. This kind of innovation levels the playing field for new players and those that cannot afford 250-1000 decks, I think it’s a good thing. As a serious casual player and am just as afraid of someone’s 105 SAS 4 times Control the Weak deck as one of these, if not more.
This kind of thing doesnt bring new players, it might at most discourage players from being interested in the game. When you join a card game, see your opponent play a deck and get told that its exclusive and you cant get them in an lgs but if you spend the big money you get them that doesnt sound appealing. New players need affordable gambles, to see a chance of opening something cool that they can compete at local events with at a price that is reasonable when compared to other card games. Woe (outside US) is too expensive of a gamble for new players. And when they see that there are 2 cool sets, GR and VM that they *CANT* get but people who play the game already are having fun with from preorders or experience events they traveled to that doesnt sound fun and encouraging. And then they see magic the gathering, pokemon, flesh and blood, yugioh and other card games with cheaper boosters that have fancy cards in them and chances of *getting your money back*. In tcgs people want to gamble and at a price of 5 boosters from other ccgs woe doesnt offer enough for amount of cardboard rectangles it gives in exchange
@@zetekpl I do get where you are coming from. But look at it this way, as a new player there are a variety of decks (sets) you can get, current (WOE), recent past WC & AoA widely available, some COTA & MM on ebay, and a new set coming out. Plus DT in the secondary market if you want to try the mechanics (Tide) in that set. That is variety and options. On top of that you can get Unchained, Menagerie and other limited edition sets if you want to try these, probably best on the secondary market. VM is exclusive, so if you want to get involved in casual competition at a games fair (convention) VM Vault Tour decks are given out as part of the entrance price. It's great to have differing types of decks, and some 'editions' to strive for if you are a more serious casual player, but their existence doesn't make entering the game a hurdle or discouragement. What IS a discouragement is going to your LFGS and playing against a COTA 4 Control The Weak deck, a good AoA GENKA deck, a 90 SAS MM deck, or any top deck played by a seasoned player against a recently opened average deck. It's the experience that needs to be managed rather than general availability of varied deck editions. WOE outside US (I am UK) is good value for money, as on average they are strong & fun. We will see what GR provides, but it maybe challenging for new players as the discard strategies are quite complex. I am so glad Keyforge isn't booster driven, that is a money sink and then you have to net deck to build a competitive deck, and without 1000's of cards you will get thrashed. In any case, we are both Keyforge fans, and I respect your views and I am sure many people have slightly differing views based on their experience,. Happy forging 🙂
I hope those decks are made illegal. I have been happy with Ghost Galaxy and Winds of Exchange so far. I know powerful decks will always exist but it feels wrong to have decks with such unorthodox combinations of cards.
Vault master being tournament legal is awful. It just says to potential new players that they defenitely SHOULD NOT invest in that card game. It goes against the most basic game design logic. If the new owners of keyforge keep walking the path they chose with the absurd price, distribution, us centric event placement, bad pizes, lackluster card design, lack of quality control and more, there is no hope for keyforge. Even now its slowly dying, little to no new players coming, this is just making the bleeding out process faster. Sad to see a game with this much design space and potential being in hands of people who are either reeeealy *not the brightest* or focused on short term gain only :/
I think a lot of this whole problem revolves around playability disparity amongst decks. Yea yea chains 😒 but chains don't make a bad deck better. I think they need to have a human review process for every deck that's made and if it just doesn't pass the opinion of too low SAS and synergy then it gets tossed out and never printed. If a deck has almost no aember burst or battle line control that generates some aember then let's face it it will struggle to make anyone want to keep playing it when there's so many better decks to play.
Ngl some sort of automated floor that algorism would enforce could be cool. By hand looking at decks is not feasable. And some synergies are not that great in SAS, for SAS never was an objective measurment to begin with. Game balance is hard, but maybe making some cards make other cards more likely to be added could be a good way to do that
Yea seems like a dumb plan overall. They gotta ban them from tournaments or they will just kill the game in the long run. You just “saved” the game so why would u make so many changes? Doesn’t make sense at all.
Ghost galaxy worry me. They've needed serious reining in by the community at every turn so far.
I don't know why they can't just take a beat and supply keyforge for five minutes before going batshit and reinventing the wheel.
Everything they announce feels like an upper-management spitballing session rather than a developed idea
I remember them saying something along the lines of, "Not everything we're gonna do is make you all happy, but bear with us." I figured that would apply to maybe one or two things moving forward, but I definitely see where you're coming from, it seems like a lot of things have been this way. . .
Thanks for bringing this out to our attention as I was unaware of these decks being passed on the tour and I also agree it is extremely unfair to us that are overseas, unless purchased through second hand, there’s no way to acquire these . I hope GG bans from tournaments or atleast makes it accessible to us overseas .
I won't be able to get into any Vault Tour at all, not even in Europe. Although I would really like to attend such an event
This is something reminiscent of Crush Card Virus being a prize card at Shonen Jump Championship 2007.
Only 6 people had the most influential card in the format and everyone had to cope with that.
Probably they will acknowledge this and maybe chose to make them legal only in certain formats or something like that, at least I hope so!
Wow that sounds crazy! I think GG has done a decent job of listening to the fans so far, so we'll have to see if something happens or changes!
I don't understand the issue of either deck when you've got no control over what cards are in a deck, and what you draw in your turn
Cosmetically exclusive things are awesome! Functionally exclusive things are bogus. Being at a competitive disadvantage isn't a big deal to me personally because I can't afford to compete, but it makes me feel increasingly disconnected with the game.
This game starting to get too sweaty and the charming nature is gonna atrophy 😢
I think this is merely growing pains and to be expected from a new game. Just a bump in the road that they'll iron out. It might take fan push-back but everyone has the same end goal: make the Keyforge gaming experience the best it can be. I also agree with you about some exclusivity being a good thing. Rewarding the most diehard fans is good for business and the fans.
Yes, I certainly hope these are just some early bumps in the road! I'm confident that even though things have still been pretty shaky, things will get more stable as time goes on.
That tank deck doesnt look all that powerful as it has low creature control and aember control. Considering that new sets seem to have better cards these days (including better ratioes of board wipes, amber control, creature ratio, artifact control, and deck speed), these decks will likely never be consistant or stand up to main set decks. I think its cool, especially for people who are budget on keyfordge, cause everyone really only probably gets one of these decks in their lives (not many at least due to exclusivity). Also it fits the theme of keyfordge perfectly as its quite annoying to play against competative decks and all of them haveing the same strong cards. This opens up the possibily of strong decks that are unique from meta deck themes. (Although once again due to their exclusivenes thatll probably never happen.) Personally this really excites me about going to a vault tour and getting my hands on a truely unique deck unlike and unexpectily unsimilar than anyother deck to which i can call my own. I dont see a reason to get so mad at GG. Put it simply they just made decks that have more variety.
Agree that the intentions here are good, GG just wants to stir up excitement for VTs. I think you hit the nail on the head here. The decks are too exclusive to be tournament viable. Either make the decks illegal for tournaments (like unchained decks), or make the decks only a cosmetic effect (like savior decks).
And there are all sorts of other cool options for drawing people to VTs, like unique pins or card sleeves or even cosmetic changes to decks like you said!
Maybe they can have some chains in tournaments? Not sure how to work with that tbf
Hey dude can you share the link for that absolute tank VT deck that you showed? "The One That Theoretically Exists"? I'm not finding it on DoK
Yeah, so for DoK, there's a Patreon tier that allows you to create theoretical decks, and another tier that let's you preview WoE SAS scores early; someone else with access to both those tiers actually threw that deck together, based off a Vault Master deck called The Childish Vault Master of Nanmaa (pic at 2:42), but since it's not scanned into the MV or DoK yet, someone had to manually construct it to see what it would've been rated (and they were able to preview the scores early at their Patreon level).
Here's a link to the decklist, although if you're not a DoK supporter at the preview-score tier, you may not be able to see its score or stats or anything like that until DoK official release WoE scores. Then it should change and you'll see the 105 SAS score! Or the actual deck itself will be scanned into the MV by then lol -- sorry for the convoluted answer! :)
decksofkeyforge.com/theoretical-decks/0573a40f-e9aa-43a1-adff-937173651d98
@@aembermedes you are a good soul taking so much time to explain all of this :)
Since the prerelease for North America is the day after tomorrow, I have a nice idea for a video. You could make a tier list of GGs customers. Obviously North American players, who backed the campaign and wanted English decks, are tier 1. Players, who backed the campaign, wanted English decks, but live in Asia are tier 2. Then there are players who didn't back, but already get retail release in north America. Then players, who didn't back, but want English decks in Europe, who get their retail release a little later. And so on.
I would be in the tier of players who backed the campaign, live in Europe and want their decks in their native language. So I'm probably tier 6 or 7 (the kind of customer, they don't care about at all).
Retail release in Europe is mid of September. I'm pretty sure I won't have received my pledge by then.
If you can't tell by now, I'm pretty pissed.
The last tier will probably be Ukraine customers.. For you know, the war makes everything happen a lot latter, if it will happen at all
Yes I don't find this new type of deck useful in tournaments either but what is the beauty of KeyForge that hasn't been addressed? It doesn't matter how strong a deck is, keyword is chains. Through chains you can solve these problems accordingly
I really want to go to a vault tour, this makes me even sadder to miss out :(
They should make vault masters legal for their OWN tournament, like you can ONLY join the vault masters 2023 tournament with VM23 decks, aside from the "normal" tournaments
VM Sealed sounds like a very fun idea!
It's sad that it is unlikely any official Keyforge events will be here. Vault Decks could be it's own cathegory imho. Just like possible Unchained tournaments.
Yeah I was asking myself, if VM decks end up not being allowed in competitive play, where then would people get to play them aside from casually? VM-deck-specific tournaments could probably be a good option, like Unchained tournaments, like you're saying!
The odds of someone pulling an amazing Vault deck aren't that high. Only one per person per vault. IMO I don't see this being a problem, seems like a fun idea, GG being creative.
If I knew I was going into a tournament against a deck that's fundamentally different from any deck I have normal access to; I wouldn't participate in that event.
I appreciate the desire to make your most committed fans feel special with an admittedly awesome deck concept. But for a normie like me it's Mars-inating.
I miss your content
New content is on the way very shortly!! :)
Keyforge needs to bring new players into the game. This kind of innovation levels the playing field for new players and those that cannot afford 250-1000 decks, I think it’s a good thing. As a serious casual player and am just as afraid of someone’s 105 SAS 4 times Control the Weak deck as one of these, if not more.
This kind of thing doesnt bring new players, it might at most discourage players from being interested in the game. When you join a card game, see your opponent play a deck and get told that its exclusive and you cant get them in an lgs but if you spend the big money you get them that doesnt sound appealing. New players need affordable gambles, to see a chance of opening something cool that they can compete at local events with at a price that is reasonable when compared to other card games. Woe (outside US) is too expensive of a gamble for new players. And when they see that there are 2 cool sets, GR and VM that they *CANT* get but people who play the game already are having fun with from preorders or experience events they traveled to that doesnt sound fun and encouraging. And then they see magic the gathering, pokemon, flesh and blood, yugioh and other card games with cheaper boosters that have fancy cards in them and chances of *getting your money back*. In tcgs people want to gamble and at a price of 5 boosters from other ccgs woe doesnt offer enough for amount of cardboard rectangles it gives in exchange
@@zetekpl I do get where you are coming from. But look at it this way, as a new player there are a variety of decks (sets) you can get, current (WOE), recent past WC & AoA widely available, some COTA & MM on ebay, and a new set coming out. Plus DT in the secondary market if you want to try the mechanics (Tide) in that set. That is variety and options. On top of that you can get Unchained, Menagerie and other limited edition sets if you want to try these, probably best on the secondary market. VM is exclusive, so if you want to get involved in casual competition at a games fair (convention) VM Vault Tour decks are given out as part of the entrance price. It's great to have differing types of decks, and some 'editions' to strive for if you are a more serious casual player, but their existence doesn't make entering the game a hurdle or discouragement. What IS a discouragement is going to your LFGS and playing against a COTA 4 Control The Weak deck, a good AoA GENKA deck, a 90 SAS MM deck, or any top deck played by a seasoned player against a recently opened average deck. It's the experience that needs to be managed rather than general availability of varied deck editions. WOE outside US (I am UK) is good value for money, as on average they are strong & fun. We will see what GR provides, but it maybe challenging for new players as the discard strategies are quite complex. I am so glad Keyforge isn't booster driven, that is a money sink and then you have to net deck to build a competitive deck, and without 1000's of cards you will get thrashed. In any case, we are both Keyforge fans, and I respect your views and I am sure many people have slightly differing views based on their experience,. Happy forging 🙂
I hope those decks are made illegal. I have been happy with Ghost Galaxy and Winds of Exchange so far. I know powerful decks will always exist but it feels wrong to have decks with such unorthodox combinations of cards.
For unortodox we have Legacy cards already. Or maybe Legacy Maveriks for trully bananas combos. And I think that's enough for the tournaments
Vault master being tournament legal is awful. It just says to potential new players that they defenitely SHOULD NOT invest in that card game. It goes against the most basic game design logic. If the new owners of keyforge keep walking the path they chose with the absurd price, distribution, us centric event placement, bad pizes, lackluster card design, lack of quality control and more, there is no hope for keyforge. Even now its slowly dying, little to no new players coming, this is just making the bleeding out process faster. Sad to see a game with this much design space and potential being in hands of people who are either reeeealy *not the brightest* or focused on short term gain only :/
I think that if you play VT to reach top 8, u can also happy to have this new content that could be OP as others standard decks 😊
I think a lot of this whole problem revolves around playability disparity amongst decks. Yea yea chains 😒 but chains don't make a bad deck better. I think they need to have a human review process for every deck that's made and if it just doesn't pass the opinion of too low SAS and synergy then it gets tossed out and never printed. If a deck has almost no aember burst or battle line control that generates some aember then let's face it it will struggle to make anyone want to keep playing it when there's so many better decks to play.
Ngl some sort of automated floor that algorism would enforce could be cool. By hand looking at decks is not feasable. And some synergies are not that great in SAS, for SAS never was an objective measurment to begin with. Game balance is hard, but maybe making some cards make other cards more likely to be added could be a good way to do that
Also, what if negative chains? Drawing more cards type of deal!
Yea seems like a dumb plan overall. They gotta ban them from tournaments or they will just kill the game in the long run. You just “saved” the game so why would u make so many changes? Doesn’t make sense at all.