Awesome video Doug! The whole situation spins my brain but you certainly helps make sense of it. Also love your thoughts at the end of the video. Spoken like a true Amiga fan!
@@10MARC you explained the whole situation extremely well. I too was one of the many pitchfork holders , but ive met Mike at various shows over the years and as you say he is a nice guy and there's always two sides to the story. But what i do know is if Jens/iComp decides to leave the Amiga that is a massive blow for all of us
Wow, thanks for explaining all this. I bought 3.1.4 for my 1200 but haven’t installed it due to the fact that I was waiting on newer roms. Hearing from Mike at Cloanto is encouraging. I think you’re right. A lot of this could be avoided if they were more proactive about engaging the community.
What a bloomin' mess it all is. I have to say I am still baffled almost 20 years after I left the Amiga scene the same issues are still going on. Lots of sensitivities to be dealt with. But in the meantime, I can still play Turrican 2 happily enough. Phew :)
Brilliant video Doug! Very eye opening, I've been reading all sorts of bile online, from various sides to the point where you didn't know who to believe or what to think. It's great that you've taken the time to dig into this, and calmly lay the facts down. Well done.
Thanks, MadPete. I shared in those frustrations of not knowing who to believe. Of course, everyone shares some blame and there are always two sides to every story.
Not sure its all that simple. And if im not mistaken, Cloanto and Amiga Inc used the same lawyer too. The sad fact is that none of the companies involved are without flaw and outright shameful behavior. Amiga Inc is absolutely not a victim in this case: "later that year, Amiga Inc. used some sleight of hand to escape a pending bankruptcy. Amiga sold its assets to a shell company called KMOS-a Delaware firm headquartered in New York-then renamed KMOS back to Amiga Inc. It tried to use these shenanigans to get out of the clause in its contract with Hyperion that would revert ownership of OS 4 if Amiga Inc. ever went under. Then, to top it off, Amiga sued Hyperion for not delivering OS 4 on time and demanded the return of all source code." --Ars Technica It costs Cloanto nothing to talk about open source, especially since they dont have the code. It simply places Hyperion in a corner as "the bad guys" without any fair chance to defend themselves. Hyperion bought the Amiga OS source-code in 2004-2005 (part of the settlement?), which is common knowledge even in good reputable media. That Cloanto buys the remnants of Amiga Inc does not affect a previous sale of intellectual property. I have sold many software products that I have made, and should I sell my main company, the new owner would have no say over things i sold in the past. The alternative being if the same intellectual property has been sold multiple times to different people (which terrible as it sounds could be the case). It might also be worth mentioning that Cloanto has cashed in on the c64 mini, and that much of the activity we have seen happens after that -- money in the bank often leaves a taste for more. But indeed, let's see where this goes. The Amiga Saga continues to make "Game of thrones" look like a children's tale.
Thank you for the research. I fully agree. I hope that everyone can end up getting along. Making a couple of quid (dollars) each and sharing it is far better than feeding the lawyers. I love Jens work and own several myself and hope to own more. (Edit) I also have several copies of 3.1.4 and plan to purchase more. I love it. The underlying improvement really makes a difference. I hope that it can be developed further.
Thanks for the shout out, Doug! Interesting developments there at the end - so curious what that all means. I do wish Mike, Jens and the rest were more visible presences with an actual voice. You're never going to please everyone, but at least an attempt at a vocal direction and roadmap would knock down a lot of the tiresome drama. Would be nice.
keep up the great work...love your vids ! I know we’ll be in good hands with Mike & Cloanto & Trevor/A-Eon moving forward for both 68k and PPC Amiga !!! btw Jens will be around don’t worry as we ALL love and enjoy his hardware
I hope you are right. What he said may have just been an off the cuff remark said out of anger. I hope he is not to stubborn to walk it back. We all agree that we love his products.
Missed this video when it was posted. Great points of view. Still on all the major Amiga forums, still own 4 Amigas - 2 used reguarly. Fantastic platform - is the closest retro machine to what we use today - lots of color - sound - multitasking - familiar GUI - applications that look and feel like those of today. Amiga took the home computing space to another level - and it didn't cost the earth either. Take care from Mike (A1200 on most of the forums).
So glad you found my humble little channel! I agree that the Amiga laid the groundwork for a lot of what we are used to today, and yet gets so little credit for it.
Honestly I wish all parties involved would sort this out once and for all and move forward. I love my Amiga's when I get one of my Amiga's to do something its never done before I get all excited about it so I am still Exploring the Possibilities with them. I can't say the same about any other computer system I own. These issues with the courts really depresses me as I have a low tolerance for drama.
Very good......it clears up a lot in my mind....like the others say...love your thoughts at the end....I even emailed Jens giving him my support....like you I own a few icomp upgrades.....so wouldn't mind paying more for them.
Yes. Jens needs to know that we support him too, which is why I sent him some $$ for Picasso 96 on Friday. He also needs to know that creating fake drama will just piss us off, though.
I find that always funny that all the TH-camrs outside the German region give the impression that Jens is always such a super nice guy. I did buy a lot of products from him, he also did help me, so yes he also has a nice and friendly side, but when you did follow the German Amiga Forums in the past, you could see that he also can act quite weird, he did Blackmail hobby homebrew developers, and for me as an Individual Computers customer I found that quite shocking to be honest. The forum admins did even block him for some time. Sorry to say long term the best thing that could happen to us Amiga fans would be that all those companies go bankrupt at some point, so that homebrew developers can step up.
Not the first time I have heard he has a quirky personality. It is better to respect your competitors and learn from them instead of trying to cause them harm.
This stuff is crazy... I hope it is worked out soon... my first real Amiga, surprisingly, is the X5000 from A-EON. I love it. Yes, it is expensive, but it is a great machine... I have personally met Trevor, and he is a fantastic guy. I agree with you, I want all of these people to succeed, by selling us products and keeping the hobby alive. Same with the 8bit stuff, my first computer was a C64, and I still buy stuff for it too. End the fighting and legal crap... and make Commodore/Amiga FUN again!
@Mr T. Guru - I agree. I still have fun with all of my Commodore/Amiga stuff... I love seeing the new, creative hardware and software that these people make, and I love buying and using it... I have bought from all of these people... I use an Original C64-Reloaded from Jens... I have bought every version of Cloanto's Amiga Forever and Commodore Forever at least since 2012... I have bought several versions of AmigaOS 4.1 and Amiga OS 3.1.4 from Hyperion (as well as some games) and I have a AmigaOne X5000 from A-EON... we need stop the lawsuits and let the create people be creative and allow them to sell their stuff... Everyone will be happier! But yes... I will continue to enjoy what I have, no matter what! :)
@@islygon that is one of the points I tried to make. People are still buying and spending money even today on this equipment, and all the fighting just turns us off and could chase that business away.
@@10MARC I know, I am glad you did too. You are 100% correct. This is a hobby, and a really fun one! I love seeing what people do with this older platform... both the 8bit line, and the Amiga line, I have spent a fair amount of money on this hobby, and I know you have as well! Thanks for reporting on this, I am still not sure we know the whole story, but this is the best information I have heard on the situation recently! Love your videos and your obvious love for Commodore and Amiga!
Very informative and very sad to see after all these years. I hope things can become Unified in the future. Please add a news 'ticker' at the bottom of the screen to go along with your report. :-)
Confirms everything I deduced from what I've read online. If my C64 restoration doesn't go well, guess I'll be getting the Ultimate and not the Reloaded Plus sticking with my A1200 as is and AROS Forever - No Schedule and Rocking!
Thanks for the heads up on Amiga.com. All the politics aside, I hope it means what I think it means. For the record, I purchased Amiga Forever DVD version 8, and Amiga essentials for use on Android, because I couldn't believe how affordable these legal products were, all these years later, and I think it's great that ANYONE has made them available. On the flip side, I also found it amazing that anyone had made a "modern Amiga" in the form of the X5000 and X1000, but the only reason I didn't invest in one, is the, what I see as, prohibitive cost. But I also understand that when you're making something for a limited market, you can't cut the price down in the same way as a mass produced main stream product.
I hear you about those hardware prices. I just can't justify dropping two grand into something like a modern Amiga is not so modern. $800 or so and I would jump at it. AmigaOS 4.1 works great on WinUAE, so I will do that eventually
@@acj1971 really? I thought I checked it a few months ago and it was just an under construction link. Thanks for the info. The new Amiga IP owner did just get rights to the website, though.
Thanks for the update! Hopefully these issues will get solved soon. What I find soo bizarre is that so many people claim they want to bring the Amiga (or other retro platforms for that mater) on by holding copyrights and suing each other. As you said well, retro computers communities will not make anyone billionaire, so why wasting so much money in lawyers??? :S
Thank you Doug this was very clarifying! Yes, what a freaking mess! With all those fantasic people in this community it really is a shame that petty people are allowed to destroy this otherwise fantastic community.. really makes me sad.. :-(
News does spread fast in the community, thanks to community forums and videos, like this one. Its good that Mike has settled a few things, but as my mum would say, its all tittle-tattle, and six of one, and half a dozen of the other - which drives me crazy. But it means they both want to keep a bit of Amiga so that they can sell their stuff with pride and authenticity, and doing their own thing. Of course in an ideal world they might join forces and improve the OS generally, but it wouldnt be fun to work for the enemy, especially as one drives the other to improve. As far as litigation is concerned, I feel like we are stuck in a time warp in 1995, and still waiting in limbo for someone to buy the technology and start to sell it again. Others want to sell trademarks and copyrights, but after 25 years I say the copyrights should not be renewed, so they fall into the public domain. Mike implies they will release all the docs and plans and stuff to the public for free, once they have all the copyrights to do so. I say by this time, we should have been able to replicate the Hombre and the AAA boards in FPGA by now, but no, we're still lumbering on with Workbench 3.1x. Until that happens, I predict the same future as we've had 25 years previously - and not much to show for it. Not even an Amiga Developer Kit. I like Amiga Forever and UAE, and its that kind of open spirit which has helped to keep the spirit alive, but if both companies vanished tomorrow, or one gets all the glory, the community wont necessarily be affected by this, given what we've had to endure already. Its like supporting an 80s band who havent had a hit since that time, and believe me, I still do.
HI Doug! You're always spot-on. I'm sorry that Jen have parthnered with the bad side. I think he's been involved in the picture by bad advices..Buying Picasso was a way to use it as a weapon against Cloanto, not a way to update an old and viral siftware. Mike Batilana is a cool guy and one that works for Amiga from the 80s. He contributed on projects under the hood like the c64mini as you say, but even on aros kickstart replacement (that is against his company interest, nonethless he is major contributor). The point is, as you said, lack of communications, even in italian forums (Mike is italian like me). Maybe is a shy guy or maybe he strategically tries to avoid been on the bull's eye, until this legal crap is over
He told me on the phone yesterday that he avoids Social Media. While I respect that idea, the fans of Amiga do not avoid Social Media and we use it to keep in touch with each other and share information. He will need to get on board, or hire someone to handle the social end of things.
@@10MARC I linked your video on italian forum amigapage.it .my post is the n. 73 (sorry, in italian). www.amigapage.it/index.php?op=v&pl=commenti&id=F042017-3-4&page=4
Interesting video, this does appear to explain a few things. I've personally tried (and hopefully succeeded - though I was rather unhappy when I first heard this so I may not have fully succeeded) to not make my reactions online about this subject to be anti-Cloanto, but more 'sad to see this happen, wish IC would stay'. However, it would have been nice to hear a more direct reply from Jens as well (instead of just Mike) and I do hope you try to get his perspective as well for a future video. If only because my experience is that only hearing things from one side where two parties are in conflict sometimes leads to the wrong conclusions. Which is ironically what happened on some of the forums, but there the side heard was the other one only ;)
To add a small bit here (I can’t seem to be able to edit the above): this is purely about getting as direct a source for both sides, just get get things as clear as possible.
Thanks for the video update Doug. I have several pieces of icomp.de hardware now and I love it. I would hate to see Jens leave the community. Furthermore you are right about us... we all support good work with $$$ when it comes to the Amiga. Two copies of OS 3.1.4, Indivision ECS v2, ACE2, Vampire 500 V2, the recent release of Power Glove Reloaded, and Aeon PPaint in just the last year and a half for me. (Not to mention crowd funded hardware and other peripherals from online vendors...) I may be a bit of a nut but this is no different than fishing, model trains, HAM radio, or any other hobby. I hope they don't sue each other into oblivion. Exciting stuff potentially with the open source.
Hyperion's lawyer has always had a HUGE financial stake in that company. He got in trouble a few years back for conflict of interest. Check out the Amiga Documents I linked to above for more details.
@@10MARC Yeah.... All signs point to the lawyer being the snake in paradise. Is he perhaps the one that brought this to his clients attention and not the client that brought this to the lawyers attention.
Thanks Doug, what a legal soap opera eh? By the way, only because I dabble in german language and that you mention his name often, Jens is pronounced Yens. 😏
Amiga Forever is the best way to support Amiga. I still have my physical Amiga but gave up using it since I would much rather use it on my laptop for HOBBY. Jen is just sour and being a pain, Cloanto owns most of the rights of what I can see and in my opinion made running a Amiga virtually the best way and in most cases the only way to have a working Amiga without spending thousands on a dead horse.
I understand how you feel that way, and I use Amiga Forever on occasion. There is a really active community that loves the original hardware, too, and that is the camp I fall in. I love hitting the hardware and seeing what I can make it do! You are correct about it being expensive, though.
the only thing i can read on www.amiga.com is: "Do you remember when Amiga meant friend? We do." so "soon" is relative, as this video was released early march and now we have end august... :(
I just went to the website and saw the same message. It sounds like setting up something for the future but I'll be darned if I know what, through all the "they said, they said". Plus, I looked at the source on the page, and there's a ROT13 message in a comment, that when translated says, "The snake which cannot cast its skin has to die. As well the minds which are prevented from changing their opinions; they cease to be mind." It's a quote from Nietzsche. I don't know the ownership of the domain, but it sounds like someone setting up a defensive stance, or wanting to move on from one chapter to a new chapter.
Hmm... I really hope someone will take charge, and work with the user on this. The users are the Amiga after all these years. Talk with the user. Engage with the user. As we are those that are keeping it alive. No user = no Amiga.
All nice and all expect Amiga Inc never played for development of AmigaOS4.0, under the buyback contract. They also never provided the source code, Hyperion had to go and get the source code on there own. so if Amiga Inc has never payed for the work how can they possible own the work?
He'll "focus on finishing designs" huh? Mentions a MK3 IndiAGA specifically. Well, that's amazing, because that would make it the first Amiga product jens has actually completed in many years. The AGA MK2 isn't finished and now he wants to make MK3. Let's not think about the quasifunctional keyrah joystick interface and the unusable FPU sockets on his ACA1233n.
I have heard that a lot. Jens is always onto the next thing before ironing out bugs on the last thing. Just his personality I suppose, and I am sure he can't afford to keep a support staff to handle exisiting products. I do love his hardware, though, and own a ton of it.
it's a 25 year old computer, why people are trying to profit out of 'roms' etc. is beyond me. Do the same as Sky do with Spectrum just give it away and let people enjoy it. You say we will pay an extra 10-15 bucks, maybe you will but I will not give those money grabbing gits another penny, any of them - I don't care who owns what. The machine is 25 years old, the company that made it went bust a million moons ago it's a disgrace the way all of them are behaving and people like Colanto, Jen etc. trying to claim a moral highground is beyond amusing.
Would have been better if you got in touch with Jens and Hyperion first before making accusations based upon a mail from Mike. If you want the total picture you should involve all parties instead of just a mail from Mike.
My friend from Amigalove got in touch with Jens fire his side of the story, and I used him as a resource. The initial two or three emails I read were from Jens direct to my friend. You can read them too on the Amigalove website.
@@10MARC Those mails are not a reply to the mail from Mike, right? I feel that Hyperion and Jens should be able to defend themselves and clear out what Mike claims.
@@kyle8952 Exactly, he is represented first and not given the possibility to reply what Mike claims. Jens mails leaks, Jens is asked questions, Mike is contacted, Mike claims a few things. Nowhere is Jens nor Hyperion given the opportunity to counter Mike's claims.
@@BartPellens if you watch the video, Mike got back to me literally five minutes before I hit the "Export" button and uploaded it to TH-cam. That is not an exaggeration.
I just watched Stephen Jones post on the same topic. th-cam.com/video/KT_izJ7TbMc/w-d-xo.html My 1st question is "When do we get easy install tools for Linux like the Windows version has?" That would be for "Amiga Forever" AND "64 Forever"? If I only get one, that's it. Cloanto may have been taking heat for other stuff recently, but this has been a gripe of mine against them for ages. I'm not paying for a product that is basically a CD Dongle to the parts of the Amiga/C= that I can't get legally, and have to slog my way through Vice and FS-UAE, to use. I spend the vast majority of my time in Mac and Linux. Yet "Cloanto Forever" doesn't work on those OS in spite of the fact that the bulk of the code they are using is repackaged Open Source. We're in over a decade with them ONLY being a Windows product. I get that it was first. I get that it's the BIG money, but honestly... for self described "software developers", they've been pretty damn lazy IMHO. Even worse... Don't I need to use a damn Windows machine to make the roms readable for MY systems? So the for me, the emulation products of Cloanto are actually MORE difficult to use than "other means". I'm paying for a penalty. I hope everyone gets that this is CONSTRUCTIVE criticism. At this point, Cloanto really should be porting the "Forevers" to ARM for Android and IOS. Can you imagine the massive injection of cash that would come from Google Play Store, and IOS sales? You have a great video on how the RPi might be the best Amiga! Why can't I BUY the "Forever" packages on an SD Card for my RPi, or at least DL an Image. The times, they are a changin'. Outside the Amiga world, Microsoft is stumbling to stay relevant with Games and Business lock in keeping them going. Even the mighty Apple seem to be on the road to slow suicide. People are excited and terrified about the next Mac Pro, after they Trashcan and the "Mint Mini" with almost everything soldered in. Meanwhile everyone who ever wanted an iTHING has one, (More likely 3, including 2 that would work fine if Apple would simply update the OS on them.) If we are talking new hardware, I would pay a mint for a Flash ROM with either a rotary switch, or DIP switches that I could extend to the back of the case, and let me switch between any ROM Revision. Added advantage is that any future 68K updates can be DL'ed after purchase, and updated without even opening the case. (Assuming you run the USB connector out somewhere. Want to spur some REAL Amiga development? Add a USB port to that thing so we can add a customized ROM images. I mean, I assume if there was a way to update the flash ROM by simply downloading a package to the the classic Amiga it was installed in, someone would have done that already. There is a flashable ROM out there, but without the ability to select from multiple roms quickly, it doesn't really offer any benefit to the average user. I LOVE the idea of the AMY-ITX. I would perform an unnatural act to get one. If Cloanto actually owns everything now, how about an AMY-ITX1200/CD32. I seem to remember the CD32 had an extra custom chip to handle Chunky Pixels. So... if you we can source one, Boom Amiga 1200XL? In a Checkmate 1500 Plus matx case. ;-) Alternatively I would, an ITX backplane for a Vampire that gives us the serial, Parallel, Floppy etc ports. I probably delusion if I suggest ZorroII Slots on a Vampire Backplane. Know what else I would buy in heartbeat? A plug and play board that lets regular 1.44 Floppy drives read and write with any standard PC Floppy drive. I've been begging Jim Drew for YEARS to make a new supercard that can take a 2.88MB/1.44MB 3.5 Floppy Drives AND 2.44MB 5.25 Floppy Drives, auto detect the format of the disk inserted into it, then depending on whatever machine it's attached to, make that disk readable and writable. I'm pretty sure something like a RPi could do the work of talking to any retro computer based on the cable plugged into. Program it to the metal the Pi1541. He's already worked out how to read just about any disk format. This consolidation of Amiga rights not only add advantage that any future 68K updates can be DL'ed after purchase, and updated without even opening the case, but if they are serious about Open Sourcing everything at some point, like they say in Marc's exchange with Mike... There is a REAL possibility that the Amiga OS might make comeback as more than just a retro fetish. Apple and Microsoft are floundering. To end this, so you don't think I'm just trolling, here's a little piece of history from your's truly. Page 12 the-eye.eu/public/Books/computerarchive.org/amiga%20news/Amiga_News_Vol_01_08_1992_Sep.pdf
You don't sound like you are trolling at all. You bring up some fantastic points! There is a version of Amiga Forever for Android, but I cannot imagine enjoying doing anything on the Amiga with a phone. Full Disclosure, I cannot stand 99.9% of phone control schemes for games... All of your other ideas are great, although possibly not realistic. No consumer device would use a rotary switch to choose ROMS, for example. It needs to be simpler, like a boot up menu.
@@10MARC I actually got the rotary switch idea from some of the Gotek drives out there. :-x But of course the simpler the better. Phone control systems ARE awful if you are using the touchscreen as anything more than a mouse. I've also never been a fan of touch screen typing. I'm still in a search for the perfect portable keyboard. I never leave home without a Logitech Ergo Trackball. Last time I tried the Amiga Emulator for Android, it was limited to WB/KS 1.3. I know retro gaming is the bulk of this market, but it's not really my thing. I was an early adopter to KS 2.0. and even 26 years ago I was calling for productivity tools.
@@10MARC LOL!!! I think if you're putting a 4Mb Flash ROM in a 30 year old computer, you are WELL into hacker territory. :-D But if it doesn't sacrifice compatibility. I won't say no to a boot menu.
Awesome video Doug! The whole situation spins my brain but you certainly helps make sense of it. Also love your thoughts at the end of the video. Spoken like a true Amiga fan!
Thanks so much, Bill. I appreciate your kind words!
Great video. Thank you for this.
That means quite a bit coming from you! Thanks!
@@10MARC you explained the whole situation extremely well. I too was one of the many pitchfork holders , but ive met Mike at various shows over the years and as you say he is a nice guy and there's always two sides to the story.
But what i do know is if Jens/iComp decides to leave the Amiga that is a massive blow for all of us
I am so glad I have found and subscribed your channel Douglas!
Thanks for the great contents!
Wow, thanks for explaining all this. I bought 3.1.4 for my 1200 but haven’t installed it due to the fact that I was waiting on newer roms. Hearing from Mike at Cloanto is encouraging. I think you’re right. A lot of this could be avoided if they were more proactive about engaging the community.
I truly love what was done with Amiga OS 3.1.4, and I am so happy to hear the Mike understands its importance, too. That helped put my mind at ease.
@@10MARC Are you running 3.1.4 on any of your machines? Did you have to create your own ROMs to do so or did you use a convoluted workaround?
@@pacbilly on my A4000 I had Paul Rezendes burn me a legal copy for my A4000, and I use my ACA500 on my A500 to use the ROM file from that kit.
What a bloomin' mess it all is. I have to say I am still baffled almost 20 years after I left the Amiga scene the same issues are still going on. Lots of sensitivities to be dealt with. But in the meantime, I can still play Turrican 2 happily enough. Phew :)
Thanks, Vicki, and you are right. Almost the same soap opera 20 years later. But for some reason, the Amiga is still worth it.
Brilliant video Doug! Very eye opening, I've been reading all sorts of bile online, from various sides to the point where you didn't know who to believe or what to think. It's great that you've taken the time to dig into this, and calmly lay the facts down. Well done.
Thanks, MadPete. I shared in those frustrations of not knowing who to believe. Of course, everyone shares some blame and there are always two sides to every story.
Not sure its all that simple. And if im not mistaken, Cloanto and Amiga Inc used the same lawyer too.
The sad fact is that none of the companies involved are without flaw and outright shameful behavior. Amiga Inc is absolutely not a victim in this case:
"later that year, Amiga Inc. used some sleight of hand to escape a pending bankruptcy. Amiga sold its assets to a shell company called KMOS-a Delaware firm headquartered in New York-then renamed KMOS back to Amiga Inc. It tried to use these shenanigans to get out of the clause in its contract with Hyperion that would revert ownership of OS 4 if Amiga Inc. ever went under. Then, to top it off, Amiga sued Hyperion for not delivering OS 4 on time and demanded the return of all source code." --Ars Technica
It costs Cloanto nothing to talk about open source, especially since they dont have the code. It simply places Hyperion in a corner as "the bad guys" without any fair chance to defend themselves. Hyperion bought the Amiga OS source-code in 2004-2005 (part of the settlement?), which is common knowledge even in good reputable media. That Cloanto buys the remnants of Amiga Inc does not affect a previous sale of intellectual property. I have sold many software products that I have made, and should I sell my main company, the new owner would have no say over things i sold in the past. The alternative being if the same intellectual property has been sold multiple times to different people (which terrible as it sounds could be the case).
It might also be worth mentioning that Cloanto has cashed in on the c64 mini, and that much of the activity we have seen happens after that -- money in the bank often leaves a taste for more.
But indeed, let's see where this goes. The Amiga Saga continues to make "Game of thrones" look like a children's tale.
well said!
Thank you for the research. I fully agree. I hope that everyone can end up getting along. Making a couple of quid (dollars) each and sharing it is far better than feeding the lawyers.
I love Jens work and own several myself and hope to own more.
(Edit) I also have several copies of 3.1.4 and plan to purchase more. I love it. The underlying improvement really makes a difference. I hope that it can be developed further.
Thanks for the shout out, Doug! Interesting developments there at the end - so curious what that all means. I do wish Mike, Jens and the rest were more visible presences with an actual voice. You're never going to please everyone, but at least an attempt at a vocal direction and roadmap would knock down a lot of the tiresome drama. Would be nice.
Interesting video, very interesting information! :)
keep up the great work...love your vids !
I know we’ll be in good hands with Mike & Cloanto & Trevor/A-Eon moving forward for both 68k and PPC Amiga !!!
btw Jens will be around don’t worry as we ALL love and enjoy his hardware
I hope you are right. What he said may have just been an off the cuff remark said out of anger. I hope he is not to stubborn to walk it back. We all agree that we love his products.
Missed this video when it was posted. Great points of view. Still on all the major Amiga forums, still own 4 Amigas - 2 used reguarly. Fantastic platform - is the closest retro machine to what we use today - lots of color - sound - multitasking - familiar GUI - applications that look and feel like those of today. Amiga took the home computing space to another level - and it didn't cost the earth either. Take care from Mike (A1200 on most of the forums).
So glad you found my humble little channel! I agree that the Amiga laid the groundwork for a lot of what we are used to today, and yet gets so little credit for it.
Excellent video as always, please watch out for my next video in the next day or two.
I can't wait to make a video about putting my A500 board in your lovely case! I think that one will be a bit longer than 10 minutes...
Thanks for clearing that one (btw typo in you description (www.10marc.com instead of www.10marc,com) ;)Thumbs up!
I am apparently a poor typist... I once posted a video that said ChickenHead Chrncles instead of Chronicles.. 😂😂😂
Honestly I wish all parties involved would sort this out once and for all and move forward. I love my Amiga's when I get one of my Amiga's to do something its never done before I get all excited about it so I am still Exploring the Possibilities with them. I can't say the same about any other computer system I own. These issues with the courts really depresses me as I have a low tolerance for drama.
I have never had an emotional attachment to any computer beside the Amiga - and I sell computers for a living!
Great video very informative.
Very good......it clears up a lot in my mind....like the others say...love your thoughts at the end....I even emailed Jens giving him my support....like you I own a few icomp upgrades.....so wouldn't mind paying more for them.
Yes. Jens needs to know that we support him too, which is why I sent him some $$ for Picasso 96 on Friday. He also needs to know that creating fake drama will just piss us off, though.
This sort of stuff always worries me. I was concerned a bit with using Amiga in Amigarama something might happen to it the situation is that crazy.
I find that always funny that all the TH-camrs outside the German region give the impression that Jens is always such a super nice guy. I did buy a lot of products from him, he also did help me, so yes he also has a nice and friendly side, but when you did follow the German Amiga Forums in the past, you could see that he also can act quite weird, he did Blackmail hobby homebrew developers, and for me as an Individual Computers customer I found that quite shocking to be honest. The forum admins did even block him for some time. Sorry to say long term the best thing that could happen to us Amiga fans would be that all those companies go bankrupt at some point, so that homebrew developers can step up.
Not the first time I have heard he has a quirky personality. It is better to respect your competitors and learn from them instead of trying to cause them harm.
This stuff is crazy... I hope it is worked out soon... my first real Amiga, surprisingly, is the X5000 from A-EON. I love it. Yes, it is expensive, but it is a great machine... I have personally met Trevor, and he is a fantastic guy. I agree with you, I want all of these people to succeed, by selling us products and keeping the hobby alive. Same with the 8bit stuff, my first computer was a C64, and I still buy stuff for it too. End the fighting and legal crap... and make Commodore/Amiga FUN again!
@Mr T. Guru - I agree. I still have fun with all of my Commodore/Amiga stuff... I love seeing the new, creative hardware and software that these people make, and I love buying and using it... I have bought from all of these people... I use an Original C64-Reloaded from Jens... I have bought every version of Cloanto's Amiga Forever and Commodore Forever at least since 2012... I have bought several versions of AmigaOS 4.1 and Amiga OS 3.1.4 from Hyperion (as well as some games) and I have a AmigaOne X5000 from A-EON... we need stop the lawsuits and let the create people be creative and allow them to sell their stuff... Everyone will be happier! But yes... I will continue to enjoy what I have, no matter what! :)
@@islygon that is one of the points I tried to make. People are still buying and spending money even today on this equipment, and all the fighting just turns us off and could chase that business away.
@@10MARC I know, I am glad you did too. You are 100% correct. This is a hobby, and a really fun one! I love seeing what people do with this older platform... both the 8bit line, and the Amiga line, I have spent a fair amount of money on this hobby, and I know you have as well! Thanks for reporting on this, I am still not sure we know the whole story, but this is the best information I have heard on the situation recently! Love your videos and your obvious love for Commodore and Amiga!
Very informative and very sad to see after all these years. I hope things can become Unified in the future. Please add a news 'ticker' at the bottom of the screen to go along with your report. :-)
Nice idea! I think I may use that!
Confirms everything I deduced from what I've read online. If my C64 restoration doesn't go well, guess I'll be getting the Ultimate and not the Reloaded Plus sticking with my A1200 as is and AROS Forever - No Schedule and Rocking!
Seems like a nice up beat at the end. Still I'll be here watching with a big bowl of popcorn hoping for the best
Trank you, I full agree to your opinion.
good info. doug, good info.
Thanks man. A good amount of research went into it this weekend
Thanks for the heads up on Amiga.com. All the politics aside, I hope it means what I think it means. For the record, I purchased Amiga Forever DVD version 8, and Amiga essentials for use on Android, because I couldn't believe how affordable these legal products were, all these years later, and I think it's great that ANYONE has made them available. On the flip side, I also found it amazing that anyone had made a "modern Amiga" in the form of the X5000 and X1000, but the only reason I didn't invest in one, is the, what I see as, prohibitive cost. But I also understand that when you're making something for a limited market, you can't cut the price down in the same way as a mass produced main stream product.
I hear you about those hardware prices. I just can't justify dropping two grand into something like a modern Amiga is not so modern. $800 or so and I would jump at it. AmigaOS 4.1 works great on WinUAE, so I will do that eventually
Amiga.com has been like this since the of middle last year.
@@acj1971 I'm late to the party on most of this. Only just re entered Amiga stuff at the end of last year.
@@acj1971 really? I thought I checked it a few months ago and it was just an under construction link. Thanks for the info. The new Amiga IP owner did just get rights to the website, though.
Open source with an "official port", may be the only way to save Amiga at this point.
Thanks for the update! Hopefully these issues will get solved soon. What I find soo bizarre is that so many people claim they want to bring the Amiga (or other retro platforms for that mater) on by holding copyrights and suing each other. As you said well, retro computers communities will not make anyone billionaire, so why wasting so much money in lawyers??? :S
Thank you Doug this was very clarifying! Yes, what a freaking mess! With all those fantasic people in this community it really is a shame that petty people are allowed to destroy this otherwise fantastic community.. really makes me sad.. :-(
News does spread fast in the community, thanks to community forums and videos, like this one. Its good that Mike has settled a few things, but as my mum would say, its all tittle-tattle, and six of one, and half a dozen of the other - which drives me crazy. But it means they both want to keep a bit of Amiga so that they can sell their stuff with pride and authenticity, and doing their own thing. Of course in an ideal world they might join forces and improve the OS generally, but it wouldnt be fun to work for the enemy, especially as one drives the other to improve. As far as litigation is concerned, I feel like we are stuck in a time warp in 1995, and still waiting in limbo for someone to buy the technology and start to sell it again. Others want to sell trademarks and copyrights, but after 25 years I say the copyrights should not be renewed, so they fall into the public domain. Mike implies they will release all the docs and plans and stuff to the public for free, once they have all the copyrights to do so. I say by this time, we should have been able to replicate the Hombre and the AAA boards in FPGA by now, but no, we're still lumbering on with Workbench 3.1x. Until that happens, I predict the same future as we've had 25 years previously - and not much to show for it. Not even an Amiga Developer Kit. I like Amiga Forever and UAE, and its that kind of open spirit which has helped to keep the spirit alive, but if both companies vanished tomorrow, or one gets all the glory, the community wont necessarily be affected by this, given what we've had to endure already. Its like supporting an 80s band who havent had a hit since that time, and believe me, I still do.
Well said for sure!
How sad that it is July 2020 and there seems no progress, Amiga website still hasn’t been updated and no Amiga mini ... I’ve just bought 3.1.4
There was talk of a resolution this August or September, but I think that is delayed by COVID-19. Who knows when the talks will start up again?
I hope there is a resolution 🙏 Wouldn’t it be amazing if we could have an Amiga Maxi with keyboard and HDMI out?
That would be really nice! They could do it in an A600 style case - that would be quite clever
HI Doug! You're always spot-on. I'm sorry that Jen have parthnered with the bad side. I think he's been involved in the picture by bad advices..Buying Picasso was a way to use it as a weapon against Cloanto, not a way to update an old and viral siftware. Mike Batilana is a cool guy and one that works for Amiga from the 80s. He contributed on projects under the hood like the c64mini as you say, but even on aros kickstart replacement (that is against his company interest, nonethless he is major contributor). The point is, as you said, lack of communications, even in italian forums (Mike is italian like me). Maybe is a shy guy or maybe he strategically tries to avoid been on the bull's eye, until this legal crap is over
He told me on the phone yesterday that he avoids Social Media. While I respect that idea, the fans of Amiga do not avoid Social Media and we use it to keep in touch with each other and share information. He will need to get on board, or hire someone to handle the social end of things.
@@10MARC I linked your video on italian forum amigapage.it .my post is the n. 73 (sorry, in italian).
www.amigapage.it/index.php?op=v&pl=commenti&id=F042017-3-4&page=4
Interesting video, this does appear to explain a few things. I've personally tried (and hopefully succeeded - though I was rather unhappy when I first heard this so I may not have fully succeeded) to not make my reactions online about this subject to be anti-Cloanto, but more 'sad to see this happen, wish IC would stay'.
However, it would have been nice to hear a more direct reply from Jens as well (instead of just Mike) and I do hope you try to get his perspective as well for a future video. If only because my experience is that only hearing things from one side where two parties are in conflict sometimes leads to the wrong conclusions.
Which is ironically what happened on some of the forums, but there the side heard was the other one only ;)
The emails I read at the beginning were a direct response from Jens, sent to my pal who runs the Amigalove.com website.
To add a small bit here (I can’t seem to be able to edit the above): this is purely about getting as direct a source for both sides, just get get things as clear as possible.
Thanks for the video update Doug. I have several pieces of icomp.de hardware now and I love it. I would hate to see Jens leave the community. Furthermore you are right about us... we all support good work with $$$ when it comes to the Amiga. Two copies of OS 3.1.4, Indivision ECS v2, ACE2, Vampire 500 V2, the recent release of Power Glove Reloaded, and Aeon PPaint in just the last year and a half for me. (Not to mention crowd funded hardware and other peripherals from online vendors...) I may be a bit of a nut but this is no different than fishing, model trains, HAM radio, or any other hobby. I hope they don't sue each other into oblivion. Exciting stuff potentially with the open source.
It is an expensive hobby for sure! I collect Amiga and Commodore 8 bit, so twice the price! 😂
Like fighting over chairs on the Titanic
So... Is it in reality Hyperion's lawyer that are the bad guy? If so, then he must really be missing something to do in his life.
Hyperion's lawyer has always had a HUGE financial stake in that company. He got in trouble a few years back for conflict of interest. Check out the Amiga Documents I linked to above for more details.
@@10MARC Yeah.... All signs point to the lawyer being the snake in paradise. Is he perhaps the one that brought this to his clients attention and not the client that brought this to the lawyers attention.
Thanks Doug, what a legal soap opera eh? By the way, only because I dabble in german language and that you mention his name often, Jens is pronounced Yens. 😏
Well, he would probably mispronounce my name, too! 😂😂😂
Amiga Forever is the best way to support Amiga. I still have my physical Amiga but gave up using it since I would much rather use it on my laptop for HOBBY. Jen is just sour and being a pain, Cloanto owns most of the rights of what I can see and in my opinion made running a Amiga virtually the best way and in most cases the only way to have a working Amiga without spending thousands on a dead horse.
I understand how you feel that way, and I use Amiga Forever on occasion. There is a really active community that loves the original hardware, too, and that is the camp I fall in. I love hitting the hardware and seeing what I can make it do! You are correct about it being expensive, though.
the only thing i can read on www.amiga.com is:
"Do you remember when Amiga meant friend? We do."
so "soon" is relative, as this video was released early march and now we have end august... :(
I just went to the website and saw the same message. It sounds like setting up something for the future but I'll be darned if I know what, through all the "they said, they said". Plus, I looked at the source on the page, and there's a ROT13 message in a comment, that when translated says, "The snake which cannot cast its skin has to die. As well the minds which are prevented from changing their opinions; they cease to be mind." It's a quote from Nietzsche. I don't know the ownership of the domain, but it sounds like someone setting up a defensive stance, or wanting to move on from one chapter to a new chapter.
Hmm... I really hope someone will take charge, and work with the user on this. The users are the Amiga after all these years. Talk with the user. Engage with the user. As we are those that are keeping it alive. No user = no Amiga.
Yep. We need leadership from the top and this could truly become a viable (yet small) market.
@@10MARC What if someone bought out hyperion and cloanto at the same time? If I had the money, I would do it.
@@brostenen we Amigans have been discussing that in and off for two decades! Hopefully it is in there have of someone who really love the Amiga now
Assumption is the mother of all fckups.
copyright and legal rights on software or hardware that's older than 10 years needs to be forbidden
Unless it is still sold, I suppose. Then it is OK to keep it copywrighted
Jens is just upset because open source hardware expansions are the future, and he can't milk us dry any more. Good riddance :)
I don't begrudge anyone for making a living. I never felt that his prices were too high at all.
All nice and all expect Amiga Inc never played for development of AmigaOS4.0, under the buyback contract. They also never provided the source code, Hyperion had to go and get the source code on there own. so if Amiga Inc has never payed for the work how can they possible own the work?
Read the Amiga Documents. Hyperion's initial complaint was that they paid $24,750 instead of $25,000.
He'll "focus on finishing designs" huh? Mentions a MK3 IndiAGA specifically. Well, that's amazing, because that would make it the first Amiga product jens has actually completed in many years. The AGA MK2 isn't finished and now he wants to make MK3. Let's not think about the quasifunctional keyrah joystick interface and the unusable FPU sockets on his ACA1233n.
I have heard that a lot. Jens is always onto the next thing before ironing out bugs on the last thing. Just his personality I suppose, and I am sure he can't afford to keep a support staff to handle exisiting products. I do love his hardware, though, and own a ton of it.
it's a 25 year old computer, why people are trying to profit out of 'roms' etc. is beyond me. Do the same as Sky do with Spectrum just give it away and let people enjoy it. You say we will pay an extra 10-15 bucks, maybe you will but I will not give those money grabbing gits another penny, any of them - I don't care who owns what. The machine is 25 years old, the company that made it went bust a million moons ago it's a disgrace the way all of them are behaving and people like Colanto, Jen etc. trying to claim a moral highground is beyond amusing.
why profit? because of MONEY X-D not everyone in the market are or wants to be a do-gooder :P
Would have been better if you got in touch with Jens and Hyperion first before making accusations based upon a mail from Mike. If you want the total picture you should involve all parties instead of just a mail from Mike.
My friend from Amigalove got in touch with Jens fire his side of the story, and I used him as a resource. The initial two or three emails I read were from Jens direct to my friend. You can read them too on the Amigalove website.
@@10MARC Those mails are not a reply to the mail from Mike, right? I feel that Hyperion and Jens should be able to defend themselves and clear out what Mike claims.
Jens' side is represented clearly and first. You didn't even watch the video, did you?
@@kyle8952 Exactly, he is represented first and not given the possibility to reply what Mike claims. Jens mails leaks, Jens is asked questions, Mike is contacted, Mike claims a few things. Nowhere is Jens nor Hyperion given the opportunity to counter Mike's claims.
@@BartPellens if you watch the video, Mike got back to me literally five minutes before I hit the "Export" button and uploaded it to TH-cam. That is not an exaggeration.
The EU has a new law coming for IP
I just watched Stephen Jones post on the same topic.
th-cam.com/video/KT_izJ7TbMc/w-d-xo.html
My 1st question is "When do we get easy install tools for Linux like the Windows version has?"
That would be for "Amiga Forever" AND "64 Forever"?
If I only get one, that's it.
Cloanto may have been taking heat for other stuff recently, but this has been a gripe of mine against them for ages.
I'm not paying for a product that is basically a CD Dongle to the parts of the Amiga/C= that I can't get legally, and have to slog my way through Vice and FS-UAE, to use.
I spend the vast majority of my time in Mac and Linux. Yet "Cloanto Forever" doesn't work on those OS in spite of the fact that the bulk of the code they are using is repackaged Open Source. We're in over a decade with them ONLY being a Windows product. I get that it was first. I get that it's the BIG money, but honestly... for self described "software developers", they've been pretty damn lazy IMHO.
Even worse... Don't I need to use a damn Windows machine to make the roms readable for MY systems? So the for me, the emulation products of Cloanto are actually MORE difficult to use than "other means". I'm paying for a penalty.
I hope everyone gets that this is CONSTRUCTIVE criticism.
At this point, Cloanto really should be porting the "Forevers" to ARM for Android and IOS. Can you imagine the massive injection of cash that would come from Google Play Store, and IOS sales?
You have a great video on how the RPi might be the best Amiga! Why can't I BUY the "Forever" packages on an SD Card for my RPi, or at least DL an Image.
The times, they are a changin'.
Outside the Amiga world, Microsoft is stumbling to stay relevant with Games and Business lock in keeping them going. Even the mighty Apple seem to be on the road to slow suicide. People are excited and terrified about the next Mac Pro, after they Trashcan and the "Mint Mini" with almost everything soldered in. Meanwhile everyone who ever wanted an iTHING has one, (More likely 3, including 2 that would work fine if Apple would simply update the OS on them.)
If we are talking new hardware, I would pay a mint for a Flash ROM with either a rotary switch, or DIP switches that I could extend to the back of the case, and let me switch between any ROM Revision. Added advantage is that any future 68K updates can be DL'ed after purchase, and updated without even opening the case. (Assuming you run the USB connector out somewhere.
Want to spur some REAL Amiga development? Add a USB port to that thing so we can add a customized ROM images. I mean, I assume if there was a way to update the flash ROM by simply downloading a package to the the classic Amiga it was installed in, someone would have done that already. There is a flashable ROM out there, but without the ability to select from multiple roms quickly, it doesn't really offer any benefit to the average user.
I LOVE the idea of the AMY-ITX. I would perform an unnatural act to get one.
If Cloanto actually owns everything now, how about an AMY-ITX1200/CD32.
I seem to remember the CD32 had an extra custom chip to handle Chunky Pixels. So... if you we can source one, Boom Amiga 1200XL? In a Checkmate 1500 Plus matx case. ;-)
Alternatively I would, an ITX backplane for a Vampire that gives us the serial, Parallel, Floppy etc ports. I probably delusion if I suggest ZorroII Slots on a Vampire Backplane.
Know what else I would buy in heartbeat? A plug and play board that lets regular 1.44 Floppy drives read and write with any standard PC Floppy drive.
I've been begging Jim Drew for YEARS to make a new supercard that can take a 2.88MB/1.44MB 3.5 Floppy Drives AND 2.44MB 5.25 Floppy Drives, auto detect the format of the disk inserted into it, then depending on whatever machine it's attached to, make that disk readable and writable. I'm pretty sure something like a RPi could do the work of talking to any retro computer based on the cable plugged into. Program it to the metal the Pi1541. He's already worked out how to read just about any disk format.
This consolidation of Amiga rights not only add advantage that any future 68K updates can be DL'ed after purchase, and updated without even opening the case, but if they are serious about Open Sourcing everything at some point, like they say in Marc's exchange with Mike...
There is a REAL possibility that the Amiga OS might make comeback as more than just a retro fetish. Apple and Microsoft are floundering.
To end this, so you don't think I'm just trolling, here's a little piece of history from your's truly.
Page 12
the-eye.eu/public/Books/computerarchive.org/amiga%20news/Amiga_News_Vol_01_08_1992_Sep.pdf
You don't sound like you are trolling at all. You bring up some fantastic points! There is a version of Amiga Forever for Android, but I cannot imagine enjoying doing anything on the Amiga with a phone. Full Disclosure, I cannot stand 99.9% of phone control schemes for games... All of your other ideas are great, although possibly not realistic. No consumer device would use a rotary switch to choose ROMS, for example. It needs to be simpler, like a boot up menu.
@@10MARC I actually got the rotary switch idea from some of the Gotek drives out there. :-x But of course the simpler the better.
Phone control systems ARE awful if you are using the touchscreen as anything more than a mouse. I've also never been a fan of touch screen typing. I'm still in a search for the perfect portable keyboard. I never leave home without a Logitech Ergo Trackball.
Last time I tried the Amiga Emulator for Android, it was limited to WB/KS 1.3. I know retro gaming is the bulk of this market, but it's not really my thing. I was an early adopter to KS 2.0. and even 26 years ago I was calling for productivity tools.
@@Ratteler I was just thinking of the unwashed masses trying change things with a little rotary dial. Hacker stuff is fine with it.
@@10MARC LOL!!! I think if you're putting a 4Mb Flash ROM in a 30 year old computer, you are WELL into hacker territory. :-D But if it doesn't sacrifice compatibility. I won't say no to a boot menu.