It took me a while to understand why Dean took Sam running from their dad so personally. Then I realized he didn't separate Sam running from John and running from him. Making everything okay was Dean's job and Sam hating their childhood meant he failed. Dean sacrificed everything to make it to work and it just couldn't because John was impossible to compromise with. Dean's too loyal to see that John is the villain, not Sam. Although taking off on Dean's watch was a dick move.
John isn’t the villain. You’re too narrow minded to see that. As many people forget when watching these scenes, if it wasn’t for EVERYTHING John did to toughen them up they’d be long DEAD. 90% of all things would *love* to kill and eat those boys, especially more so being from a family of hunters. People watch these domestic moments and forget that just because it wasn’t a wholesome childhood doesn’t mean it WAS abusive either. John wasn’t jumping from motels and yelling at the boys for nothing. He wasn’t hard on them just because he was a former military man and an asshole. He knew only a fraction of the evils Sam and Dean actually experienced and refused to let them grow up in such a world without the tools necessary to kick its ass. Remember when Dean met literal Satan and despite wearing his brother body, killing the future Dean effortlessly, and being terrified; Dean still tells Lucifer to stick it and he’ll find him and kill him. Most people could barely speak if put in that kind of situation.
@@Barrythebarnabasthe main problem with John was his obsession with killing yellow eyes and putting it over everything. John was right to raise them in the life because they were always going to be targets. But barely being home and treating Dean like a tool and Sam like a son was wrong. Also getting mad at Sam for wanting to live normal is wrong.
"Wow! Running from angels... On foot... In Heaven... With "out of the box" thinking like that i'm surpised you guys haven't stoped the apocalipse already!" ROFL
I wish they had actually shown the real scene of Sam leaving for college, and John telling him to never come back, and what Dean said. It's always felt like the pivotal flashback of this show to have at some point.
I still wish they’d do a prequel trilogy movie series of John raising the boys. I’ve got a feeling there’s so much to be told! Each movie could focus on a different Winchester. Movie one on John and coping with Mary’s death while also ‘seeing evil everywhere’ (his quote from S1, which I always took as a euphemism for ‘btws, Sam, there’ve always been demons surrounding you’). The second one told from Dean’s perspective, going from middle school to high-school, and his not wanting to be a hunter but still wanting to be like his dad and putting up a brave face for Sam. The third one from Sam’s perspective, (14-19), seeing his life now that Dean was out of school and likely full-time hunting with John + the year he possibly took off between high school and university (he’s about 19.33 when he starts at Stanford, so he either started school a year late, was delayed a year due to moving around so much, or took a year hunting with John and Dean in between there.) And finally, at the end of that Summer, John finds out and there’s a big explosive fight. I want it SO BAAAAD!
I think John probably had tears in his eyes when Sam actually did it. It hurt Dean to say those words later on so I can only imagine how tough it must’ve been saying that to your kid
I feel so sorry for Dean! His family means everything to him, especially Sam. It must have really hurt to see that Sams happy memories are only without him. ;(
"and when dad came home..." if you think for one minute that John Winchester wasn't an abusive father let me tell you a thing. Dean's face breaks my heart when he says this, he looks terrified of remembering what John did to him
th-cam.com/video/vX37U9PivD0/w-d-xo.html Yeah , that's why he loved his father so much ... Just look at this hug .. Dean loved his father .. and one simply can't be that close to an abusive parent .
@@namrata9218 the thing with abuse especially verbal abuse is that your brain plays tricks on you a lot. You see one act of what would be kindness and think maybe the person changed. Abuse is like that. John was pretty verbally abusive by the sounds of it and Dean stuck through it all. John even said that Dean could rot in jail for all he cared when he stole food because he knee Sam would get hungry when he was younger. Sam actually left which is why they argued more because sam saw more and realized more of his dads ways. When their dad realized his effects on his kids was around the time he died which is why he helped them when the gate to hell opened up
"And when dad came home..." His face breaks my heart. I know that face. I've seen it over and over on so many abuse survivors....getting choked up just thinking/talking about what happened. So if you still think John Winchester was a good father, you might need to watch the series over again. Bobby was 200% more of a dad than John ever was...even when Mary was alive.
+Angie Wallace Definitely agree with almost everything you said. John was a good man (or at least tried to be). But he was a crappy father. However, I really don't think John ever laid a hand on Dean. Not only it seems outside of John's character, but also does not make sense judging from Dean's reaction. Dean has been into physical pain countless times and is never affected of it. His weakness are his feelings. You want to torture Dean - make him feel useless, a failure, make him hate himself. I'm quite sure John';s reaction was that of emotional violence - and it wasn't even intentional. For John, protecting Sam has always been way more important that protecting Dean because Sam was the fragile one, the baby in the crib witnessing his mother burn on the ceiling of his nursery. Therefore, the moment sam runs away on dean's guard, for John dean becomes worthless. Dean on the other hand always only cared of his brother's well being and his father's acknowledgement. That's why John's yelling was all he needed to suffer. (On the side note, i think this is the kind of relationship dean had with his family - we always would seek the best for sammy, some acknowledgement from John and some love / care from Mary. Deep down dean is a mommy's boy, she was the only person with whom he could allow himself to be normal - not the obedient soldier, the tough / jerk brother or the ladies man.)
+soah whoami I agree with you that John must have used emotional pain on Dean, not physical. But I believe he did his best with what he got. He could've have become an abusive alcoholic father, beating the boys like the father of that other kid in season one, but no, instead he learned everything he could about the new world he had just discovered and trained the boys, prepared the boys for the life he knew they would have, because something was after them after all, it would be stupid to just sit on their asses and wait to be killed. And yet, the man saved so many lives, taught his kids how to do the same and defend themselves. They couldn't drink or smoke or any of that, just like regular teenagers. Do you think the boys would love him (and they did, Sam left his Apple pie life to go after him after all, and Dean also loved his father like crazy, wanting to be like him in many aspects, and both of them said it on 10x09) And in the end, he put his revenge aside to save his son.
+Cecilia Cabrini My comment was more focused in the analysis of what Dean says - 'and when dad came home'. And I would still stick to the idea that John was not a good father. He lacked emotional closure and understanding of his boys and he controlled them in a fiery way - Dean through his emotions and Sam by trying to use some authority. Bobby did a much better job in his limited time as a surrogate father, even though he was just as much of a hunter as John. However, in no way would I say that he did not love his boys. He did have his reasons, although not justifiable. John did try to do what he thought best, and I would agree that most of his mistakes were because he just could not handle this situation. He was alone and unprepared. Besides, heck, no preparation in the world is enough when your wife dies burned in your 6 months year old nursery ceiling, and you find out that there are creatures out there which most people will never see (or live to tell).
+Angie Wallace I agree. I remember back in Season 7, Episode 10, they showed flashbacks of Bobby talking to John on the phone and telling him that his sons need their father around. It also shows him taking Dean to the park to play catch. John was good at keeping the boys alive and teaching them how to fend for themselves, but being a father is more than that. Being a father means encouraging your kids and making sure they have good memories of you. Though, I think he learned his lesson, because he took Adam (his other son) to baseball games.
Angie Wallace I was a victim of child abuse and you are so very right. The look on deans face when he said "And when Dad came home..." is the same look I have when my friends ask me about my abusive past
I'm actually sorry for both of them in this scene. For Sam because his lucky memory got more or less destroyed and he feels guilty and for Dean because I really don't wanna know what John's mood was and what he did to Dean after he came home without Sam!! As we all know, John was always more fatherlike to Sam than to Dean!
He wasn't father like to either one of them, though. He left a 9 year old Sam completely alone when he deemed a 12 year old Dean old enough to start hunting with him. NINE years old. That is not fatherly, that is neglect and abuse.
At first I wondered why Sam leaving for Stanford was one of the worst nights of Dean's life even after he had watched Sam die, but then I realized that when Sam died he was forced to leave Dean and when he took off for Stanford it was the first time he chose to leave him behind.
That's kinda sounds selfish tbh. You made it look like Dean doesn't really care what happens to Sam, only if Sam is with him. What is better, if you're sibling is away but happy, or dead but he didn't leave you?
+ john possibly fucking hitting him and making clear to dean that he failed once more because he is such a failure in their family. that, too, must have been really nice to live, y'know.
It broke his heart because he gave up his heaven at that camp for Sam but to realize Sam was his most happiest away from him and on the night John probably let him have it & he was with his brother and left him
@@kevvwinnin4747 okay what the hell is wrong with you people sam wasn't running away or trying to get away from dean he went to Stanford to quit hunting to go to college and go to law school to become a lawyer so he could have a normal life so he could quit hunting because he hated it. isn't it a little hypocritical when the people in the comments section judge be sam for quiting hunting so he can have a normal life when dean did the same thing at the end of season five after sam and dean defeated michael and lucifer by putting lucifer back in the cage and sending him back to hell dean quit hunting at the end of season five beginning of season six to have a normal life with lisa and ben. yet no one judges him for it sam didn't ditch his family and leave his family or dean behind he was quitting hunting because he hated it. hell the first episode of season one sam told dean dean i swore i was done hunting for good to which dean responds by saying c'mon it wasn't easy but it wasn't that bad.
Sam and Dean were both treated differently when they were growing up, making it difficult for each of them to understand each other. The way I see it is that Sam never had time with his mom and grew up with a father who was barely ever around, He seems to appreciate his brothers doings and raising him, but he has a lot of family issues Then there is Dean who had to grow up at a young age. Caring for his brother 24/7 while John was never around. I love this show but damn they make me so sad haha
Sam liked for 26 years. He probably had many happy memories.This Heaven worked much like a dream, dreams dont care about time so maybe he just didnt get to the Jess part yet
Two things. One, at this point in time 'Heaven" is a series of closed doors. That means that Jessica would never actually appear in Sam's memories - just a shade of her. This is key. Second, you have to know that Sam is aware of Heaven and its rules. Most people who die are oblivious to Heaven's rules. It's why when we see Bobby he's sitting alone reading a book, listening to the radio. If you knew the person you loved was locked away in their own heaven, would you abuse their memory in Heaven knowing what it is? This sort've ruins it for anyone whose had a peek behind the curtain. They can't remain oblivious to it - they'd know they're talking to a glorified sock puppet. Meanwhile Sam feels guilty for having brought Jessica into "the life". Her death is on him, had she never met him she'd be alive. This taints any and all of Sam's memories with her. The moment he'd see "Jessica" he'd be plagued with guilt. You put all this together and Sam's complicated feelings don't "work". He selects a few paltry moments of freedom instead. Dean should be looking at Sam right now and not giving him shade - but feeling sorry for Sam, whose "dreams" are so paltry, so small, so modest compared to the life he lived. Did Sam ever stop and actually "live"? Are these brief moments of hope the best he has? It's dark, but that's how Heaven worked until the end of the series.
The thing is, I think this whole thing was orchestrated to pin the two of them against each other. They showed moments that they knew would trigger the other. Jess may have done that, but I think seeing Sam's happy memories are all the times he abandoned their family would hit harder than him meeting Jess. Same for Sam seeing that for a bit, Dean had the happy childhood that he would never have.
I think the reason Sam's happiest memories were of the times he ran away is that those were the rare times of his life where he felt like he had taken control over his own life. Sam was kept in the dark about all the horrors John and Dean hunted for a long time, and was more often than not left alone or with Dean in whatever motel room they were set up in. Dean watched out for him, yes, and there's no denying he was a better caregiver than John ever was, but he wasn't always very kind to Sam. This is especially evident when Sam asks questions that Dean doesn't want to answer. I feel like the first time Sam ran away, it was because he was tired of all the secrecy and Dean bossing him around and being cooped up in a dingy motel room. Flagstaff was the very first time he didn't feel trapped. You've got to understand that he was just a confused, frustrated kid. Children, especially in this mindset, do not consider how their actions may affect others. Sam was not in the right, but John's reaction was NOT his fault - and even so you can see the crushing guilt settle on Sam's face when Dean tells him what happened that day. As for Stanford, again, I don't think he was worried about Dean that much, because Dean at least seemed content to be a hunter. This was the night when he'd finally escaped John, and that's what mattered to him. I have no doubt John abused Sam as well as Dean; at the very past, he severely neglected him, and it's been stated multiple times that they fought a lot. So when Sam finally escaped, of course he was happy. Sam may regret it, but in that very moment he WAS happy, and probably proud of himself for going through with his dreams. But now, looking back, he sees how selfish he was, and how he'd hurt Dean. And I have no doubt that he hates himself for it. So while I really do feel for Dean, and I can clearly see how this affected him, you've got to remember that Sam suffered the same hellish childhood that Dean did, although suffering differently. He worked hard to get out, not fully understanding what it would do to his brother. So while they may have been selfish decisions, it's not hard to see why he made those decisions. Sam and Dean both want and deserve to be happy, and Sam couldn't yet bring himself to accept that this would be his life. He was in denial, and that isn't hard to understand when he was raised in such horrific circumstances. He kept telling himself "this won't be forever, I know it," and on these days he was able to really, truly believe that. He wasn't trying to ditch his family; he was trying to be happy. He was naive and selfish, and the biggest part of this is that he knows that now. He regrets these memories so much, despite the fact that at the time, he was happy.
Wonder Warrior "Dean wasn't very nice to him" Well, he was only missing out on most of his own childhood, I wouldn't be too happy either, especially when most of it was spent sacrificing for Sam, and even then he tried to keep Sam happy, going as far as stealing presents to keep Sam happy during Christmas. By being secretive he was trying to protect Sam, which had been ingrained into his brain by John and even before that. I'm also pretty sure that being an older sibling comes with bossing the smaller sibling around, probably because you're older and therefore more experienced, and you could also be trying to protect them.
@@impala-67 I have to agree with you here. Dean tried his best to give Sam as normal of a childhood he could. He hid things from Sam to protect him from the harsh reality. And don't tell me Sam was abused by John too because he wasn't. Dean never let John touch Sam. That is very evident from the way Dean stood in between them while they were arguing, pushing John away. Dean always took the beating.
@@athira2966 Abuse are not only phisical. It can be mental too. John surelly loved them and did his best to protect and prepair them over situation he was in, but this doesn't change the fact he wasn't in his best mindset to raise a child, let alone two. He was authoritary, and possessive. Sam and Dean reacted the opposite ways. Dean used to follow John and obey him, admiring his dad like a god, while Sam was done with it. John abused both of them, specially mentaly.
In my perspective, Sam wasn't selfish at all. There is absolutelly nothing wrong with wanting the best for your life, despite what your family thinks or choose. For more that was understandable over what happened to Mary, hunting the demon who killed her was John's choice, and he was forcing a sick revenge in his sons. Also Dean always was emotionally dependent of his family, but he was a grown up man. Sam had any obligation to be stuck in a situation that makes him miserable because Dean wanted to be besides his dad. Dean could have left with Sam that night, I'm sure Sam would take him. But Dean chose to stay with John, and Sam can't stop his life over it. In season 1 Dean himself said that admired Sam for that. I don't think Sam was wrong for leaving. But was just a point, I agree with everything you said. ^_^
@@taynahibanez9952 I am not supporting John here at all. I agree that he wasn't ready to raise two children on his own. He didn't have to, cause Dean did all the raising part. If you watch the show again, you will find that both Sam and Dean loved their father very much. And they did everything to find and save him. I don't think they would have done that if John was that terrible of a father. He must have done something right tbh. And yes, Dean always followed orders because he taught that was the right thing to do. But in 1x11, Dean although at first mad at Sam for disobeying John's order, he tells him that he is PROUD of Sam for being able to stand up against him and that he wished he could the same too.
I feel really bad for Dean. Part of the reason he was mad at Sam for running away is because of the abuse he got from John when he found out. Poor Dean.
I understand sammy perfectly, i know that dean feels like sam left him and not his dad, but gaining independence is somethig he wanted, needed even, he wanted normal just like his mother, and yet people blame him for going after his dream.
+Dann DJ People seem to forget that normal would have never worked for Sam. The thing is that after Mary's death, the Winchesters would never be safe. It's not like Dean chose to live a miserable life. But the fact was that the boy's life was going to be dangerous and miserable. Sam chose to ignore this and follow his dreams. How nice would his dreams turn out if he was killed by the thing that murdered Mary? The only way Sam's plans for independence would have worked was with Sam being the happy college boy and Dean and John at his back, taking care of Sam. That's why Sam is selfish. He is reckless, assuming that he is living his life. But in reality Sam can only live his life as long as Dean sacrifices his for Sam's well being. This was written from the boy's perspective at the time Sam ditched John and Dean for Stanford . I know that Sam was safe, being guarded by Lucifer's followers. But neither Sam or Dean knew. And they both took their decisions believing that Sam was in danger. The difference was that Dean actually thought matters through and cared what the consequences were. Sam did not
Yeah,I totally understand Sam too.He just wanted normal life and independence.He was young back then,he thought that he can still make his dreams come true.You could see he was happy on Stanford with Jess.If I was him,I would do the same thing.
No matter what happened jessica would have died the only difference there would have been was Dean being there and not being there to get him out of the fire
This thought just came to me, and it could be complete BS. But what if Zach was controlling what they saw for Sam's heaven to drive a wedge between the brothers in hopes of getting dean to say yes. Because there's no way in hell that Sammy doesn't have one amazing memory with Dean that would be used as one of these greatest memory things.
Not only that one of deans memories was there mom making him a sandwich with no crusts which hurt Sam’s feelings. And yes i think Zach purposely only showed certain memories because Sam def has a few with dean hell probably even one with his dad
If you really think about it, don’t you think that the angels might have messed with Sam’s heaven to mess with Dean just so he would say yes to Micheal
@@marymartindale884yes but they showed the moments that would’ve hurt dean the most and also showed the moment Mary made dean food something Sam never got Zack did elite gaslighting
Here is the thing: Dean and Sam were both children raised in a dysfunctional, abusive family environment. But though they grew up in the same environment, they grew and responded to it in different ways. To put simply: Dean's response was to not rock the boat. He wanted to keep things as peaceful as possible in the family, likely to foster a sense of safety (because John was at the very least emotionally abusive to both boys, if not physically, and also because actual demons and monsters were trying to kill them and they had less chance of dying if they were focused on fighting the monsters and not each other). So Dean's response to the abusive family environment was to follow John's every order and never even think about leaving the family, because that would rock the boat and create a conflict. And so long as there was no inter-family conflict and things were peaceful, Dean could convince himself that he was happy. Sam, on the other hand, just wanted to get out of the boat, period. Due to the abusive and dysfunctional nature of it, Sam felt it was *always* rocking, and he didn't much care if he rocked it worse trying to get to shore. All he cared about is that he escaped, because he felt *unsafe* in the family, likely because of John's behavior as much because of the demons and monsters they fought, and in his perspective keeping the peace wouldn't make him feel safe and so there was no point in trying. Sam's response to the abusive family environment was to escape as soon as he could. When Sam said he wanted a "normal" life, what he really meant was one free from abuse. Neither of these responses are "wrong," because there is no "right" way to respond to abuse. Everyone is different, and so everyone responds to abuse differently, even within the same family. And while some could accuse Sam of being selfish by leaving Dean with John: 1.) A certain amount of selfishness is NECESSARY to be mentally and emotionally healthy. It is not wrong to set boundaries for yourself or remove yourself from harmful situations. Putting others before yourself 100% of the time is actually self-destructive. So while Sam was only thinking from his own perspective during the times he ran away, he was not wrong or bad for doing so. No one is EVER wrong or bad for wanting to leave an abusive environment. 2.) Dean is being just as selfish here in the present as Sam was in the past by ONLY thinking about himself, the consequences he faced, and how he felt. Sam listens to Dean's perspective here; he understands and apologizes. But Dean won't hear a word of it from Sam, because he's only thinking about how hurt he was that Sam left, that Sam had happy memories away from the family. Dean is selfish when it comes to Sam, in that he wants Sam to want the same things that he wants, and he gets wrapped up in his feelings when that's revealed not to be the case. Yes, Dean raised Sam (out of necessity since John certainly wasn't going to) and that was selfless, but refusing to see things from Sam's perspective and *being angry with him for being happy about leaving an abusive, dysfunctional family* is, in fact, selfish. So while I still think that Heaven was manipulated here to show memories that would drive the brothers apart, I also don't think it's fair to rake Sam over the coals for them regardless. Sam was happy he escaped a dysfunctional and abusive family. That's valid. Dean is hurt that Sam's happy memories don't involve him, and that is also valid, but at the same time selfish in the sense that Dean is, well, being upset with Sam for being happy about the times he got to be away from the dysfunctional childhood they both grew up in. It's a complex situation, but speaking from experience, is one that is very realistic. (Aside from the monsters.)
this comment is such a diamond in the rough of comments always demonizing sam for wanting to leave a toxic environment, such a well thought out analysis, thank you so much for this comment
you're basically saying leaving someone who would sacrifice anything for you, in such a bad situation just cause your own wishes matters more, isn't bad or wrong and Dean is the wrong for being hurt for being treated this much unfairly? Sam literally acted like it's Dean's fault that John kicked him out, like Dean was the reason for his miserable life and not even thought for a second that maybe it's not just about his trauma while Dean always had to push over his own trauma because of him. keep this dumb excuse on your ass.
"Wow. Running from angels. On foot. In heaven. With out-of-the-box thinking like that, I'm surprised you haven't stopped the Apocalypse already." Zach is an asshole, but his sass is the best.
The worst part of this scene is that Sam's happy memory likely reminded Dean of a brutal beating from his father. They don't ever say it out loud, but Dean's face says everything you need to know. That's one of the reasons why the "get over yourself Dean" mentality of some of the writing on the show is so jarring - it's really not ever going to be easy to "get over" something like that.
Amber XV what? Dean doesn’t idolize John and he sees Sam almost as his own kid, are we watching the same show? “My father was an obsessed bastard! All that crap he dumped on me about protecting Sam, that was his crap. He's the one that couldn't protect his family! He's the one who let mom die! Who wasn't there for Sam, I always was! It wasn't fair! I didn't deserve what he put on me and I don't deserve to go to Hell!” s03e10, Dream a Little Dream of Me “But, Sammy... C'mon... I killed Benny... to save you. I'm willing to let this bastard, and all the sons o' bitches that killed Mom, walk because of you. Don't you dare think that there is anything, past or present, that I would put in front of you! It has never been like that! Ever! I need you to see that. I'm beggin' you.” S08e23, Sacrifice Are these the words of a man who idolizes his father and hates his brother?
"Wow! Running from angels..on foot..in Heaven. With "out of the box" thinking like that, I'm surpised you guys haven't stopped the apocalapse already!" As much as I love my Dean and Sam, Zacariah is the best badass angel of them all.
Cesca Alice Right?? When people try to tell me that John Winchester didn't abuse his sons, I show them this and they shut up because you can see it in Dean's eyes
If John abused Dean we would've seen it in Something Wicked. If anything, he yelled at Dean like he did in that episode. John treated his sons as soldiers, not as rag dolls to beat on. A father who beats his kids doesn't do it because they are overly protective and is afraid his kids will be killed by some force that killed his wife. They do it because they are either drunk and lose control over themselves or were beaten themselves and haven't learned to break the cycle. John was neither of those. I'm getting really sick and tired of all the bashing I'm reading about him, mostly from people who probably weren't even watching the show when JDM was in it. A father's role isn't to coddle and nurture his kids like a mother does. A father's role is to teach his kids how to survive in a brutal and cold world. This is especially true in real life and a big reason why so many people in their 20's today from what I've seen can't handle the real world is because they didn't receive that from their parents and they expect everything to be puppy dogs and candy when they step into the real world. Some fathers have the luxury of being able to do some coddling/nurturing, but John Winchester certainly didn't have that luxury with all the stuff that he was saddled with. And unfortunately that made it especially tough on Dean who had to be like a father & mother to Sam when he didn't deserve to have that weight placed on him. But that wasn't John's fault. That was the crap circumstances imposed on John & his kids by the evil bastards that did what they did to them and by Michael whose grand plan the death of Mary was part of. I've even seen people blaming Mary for it after that episode in season 12 where Dean blames her, but I wouldn't blame her either. Would John have raised his sons the way he did had Mary never died, of course not. Hell, I bet even if Mary still died but didn't die of supernatural causes, John wouldn't have raised them like he did. But when a man sees his wife pinned to a ceiling and bursting into flames, he would be a bad father if he didn't raise his kids the way John did to protect themselves against the evils out there. If John raised Sam & Dean the way people bashing him wanted him to, then they'd be dead 1000x over by now like any one of the victims in your typical opening scene of Supernatural. Not to mention that both Sam & Dean have put the way John raised them behind them and fully understand and appreciate why he did what he did.
@@wtcvidman I'm late, but it was mentioned in season 12 that there was abuse by that one bitch from the men letters that tortured Sam. I wish we could've gotten scenes of that, but I guess wanted a "tell, not show" sort of thing. That, and maybe they couldn't get Mr.Morgan to come back at the time for flashbacks.
All YOU people, remember that dean had a chance to get out of the hunter's life when he was like 16 or so, but he gave it up for sammy , so when sam chose to leave him over & over again , dean couldn't feel anything but betrayal .. Love them both , but dean breaks my heart
exactly. Sam doesn't know that yet though, and you can tell when he finds out that he is sad that Dean chose to get back. And yes I love them both as well, but Dean breaks my heart.
Yes but do not forget dean still could’ve left when he turned 18 or the very least told his dad to let him and Sam live with Bobby. Also when Sam left he stayed with his dad and in season 1 dean was mad that Sam said after they kill yellow eyes he was going back to college still. Sam shouldn’t be faulted for dean not leaving
@halfbreed1426 cause Dean practically raised Sam....kinda sucks when all ur lil brother's happy memories are away from you, or about leaving you. Can't blame Sam for wanting to get out of the hunting life, and can't blame Dean for feeling betrayed-ish...can ya?
@joisey10 I think Sam's heaven is a bit... suspicious. Come on, seriously Jessica wouldn't be there? Even if Dean wasn't there, which I find REALLY odd, she would definitely be. Mmmmmh... did someone tamper with his heaven to piss Dean off?
Basically this. Like, sure, these were some of Sam's happy memories, but not *all* of them, and it's suspicious as hell that there wouldn't have been a 'Jessica' moment for him the way there was a 'Mom' moment for Dean. The fact that the angels are planning to let the boys remember this trip (when they've never remembered any of the other times they've died and have been brought back) lends credence to the 'angel tampering' theory - driving a wedge between Sam and Dean is essential to the angels' plans at this time, and a , 'quick, pick all the happy memories without Dean in them!' plan seems likely. On the other hand, Sam and Dean are very different people who have very different views of their own (shared) lives. So, even if there is some manipulation here, there's also likely some truth in it.
Two things. One, at this point in time 'Heaven" is a series of closed doors. That means that Jessica would never actually appear in Sam's memories - just a shade of her. This is key. Second, you have to know that Sam is aware of Heaven and its rules. Most people who die are oblivious to Heaven's rules. It's why when we see Bobby he's sitting alone reading a book, listening to the radio. If you knew the person you loved was locked away in their own heaven, would you abuse their memory in Heaven knowing what it is? This is why Bobby isn't spending time with his family. They're somewhere else - and if he were to "bust out" and tell them this, they'd be cursed. Right now they're safely away, enjoying their memories of him completely believing it's really him. This sort've ruins it for anyone whose had a peek behind the curtain. They can't remain oblivious to it - they'd know they're talking to a glorified sock puppet. Meanwhile Sam feels guilty for having brought Jessica into "the life". Her death is on him, had she never met him she'd be alive. This taints any and all of Sam's memories with her. The moment he'd see "Jessica" he'd be plagued with guilt. You put all this together and Sam's complicated feelings don't "work". He selects a few paltry moments of freedom instead. Dean should be looking at Sam right now and not giving him shade - but feeling sorry for Sam, whose "dreams" are so paltry, so small, so modest compared to the life he lived. Did Sam ever stop and actually "live"? Are these brief moments of hope the best he has? It's dark, but that's how Heaven worked until the end of the series.
While I do feel bad for Dean, there's always been a part of me that thinks 'when Dean remembers things it tends to be through rose colored glasses.' Like, not that I blame him, he was in a tough spot having to look after Sam AND help John from the age of 4 onwards, BUT I can also understand that things would've looked different to Sam than they did to Dean. e.g. Dean used to leave Sam at that Clown place that terrified him, Dean seemed to remember that differently to Sam. other e.g. Dean 'what did you need an imaginary friend for?' Sam 'I was kind of a lonely kid, Dean.' 'You weren't lonely! You had me!' (Flashback to Sam alone in a motel room while Dean and John are on a hunt). Sam'd never had a normal childhood- I'm GLAD he got out and went to Stanford. I don't like the idea that he SHOULD have stayed with Dean or that he 'betrayed Dean' by running away. I don't even want to imagine what kind of psychological warfare was going on in his mind, growing up like he did. If Dean wanted to stay, fine, but I'm glad Sam got out.
It's just incredible how much Dean really loves his family. To yeh point that his heaven is just being with them. Because he was never allowed such a simple thing. And this doesn't mean that Sam didn't live his family, but because of being born different he always wanted to get away from them and hide himself. This is how 2 brothers who were raised the same can feel so different
I notice that this entire time, they're running in a straight line. I think it's safe to say that Henry Spencer was a better teacher than John Winchester. "A straight line is the shortest distance between two people. Zig-zag, zig-zag!"
@halfbreed1426 because Sam's family also included Dean. And Dean went through all the same things Sam did (basically). It prolly hurts Dean to know that the worst days of his life were the best of Sam's
Dean fangirls are flawed in one specific way. They'll defend Dean and hate on Sam any chance they get. All they think when they watch this scene is "oh poor Dean, Sam is so ungrateful, he doesn't deserve Dean". What about Sam? Sam had a shitty childhood too. He wasn't ever runnin from Dean, he was running from John. Sam just wanted a safe, normal life. If it wasn't a hot guy like Jensen (Dean), fangirls would probably have a totally different opinion. Sucks when fangirls ruin shows by picking sides and defending characters simply because they have the hots for said character. great way to trivialize such a beatiful and complex show.
Exactly how I feel. At least Dean had memories of life with Mary before Azazel killed her. For most of Sam's childhood, it was driving around with John, hunting, camping out, and killing monsters AND THAT WAS IT. John didn't take them to ball games, or the park, or do anything to make them happy; he just kept them safe. At least John realized it later on before he died.
Not really. I get Sams perspective too but you have to understand that Dean had to bear all of the responsibilities that came with looking after Sam. That also means suffering the repercussions of when he failed to look after Sam. I think that’s what Sam didn’t realise until this scene. He was being selfish and only thinking about himself and his own happiness and not thinking about what his actions would mean for Dean.
The sad part is that even if both Sam & Dean ran away from that life, they never would have succeeded because Chuck and Metatron forced their role to be a "Michael vs Lucifer global scale" script. Fortunately they somehow destroyed that script but Chuck just kept on writing and they just kept being more important to the story.....(sigh)
I don't think John abused Dean in the sense that every one is seeming to think. He probably yelled at him and possibly ignored Dean as punishment. John was a negligent father but he wasn't horrible human being. He would never hit his kids. If he did Dean would've taken Sam and run away. If he had been a terrible man then Dean wouldn't emulate his dad. Plus Sam was a kid who tried to make his own choices about his own life, that isn't selfish, that's normal. Every one does that. Dean made his own choices. Neither was trying to hurt the other. You can't say that Sam should blindly follow his brother just because Dean took care of him. Dean is a wonderful person, his one flaw is that he loves and needs Sam to be by his side all the time. Dean doesn't allow himself the space to be someone without Sam. But if the brothers relationship was normal we wouldn't have the show. And if Dean loves his brother to an unhealthy extent so should the rest of us.
I dont know I mean if you look at how dean acts when he gets mad he usually goes for the fighting he even hit sam at that age he should know that's not what to do when your mad so he probably grew up thinking that's what you have to do when your mad and most likely learned that from john 😔
I understand Dean's upset for Sam ditching them but he doesn't fully understand Sam's intentions and why he 'ditched' them. I mean, it was so obvious that Sam and John fought and screamed in each other's faces, I sure hid under the fucking covers when they did the first time seeing a clip on here, I can't imagine what might have happened afterwards. Family, yes the old natural thing I understand on certain levels, but no, Dean that is far less on an excuse when Sam wanted to leave and get away from daddy. But I have seen some features where Dean hadn't been treating Sam as an adult, probably seeing him as his little Sammy, which he did. Now that's fine and dandy but Sam did not like that either. So not so much as 'ditching' no matter how he sees it. Sam got away from his father for the life he did not want for himself. And likely, he got away from Dean because Dean wouldn't let Sam grow up and be an adult for once. But Dean wasn't mentioned so much for Sam to leave him. But certain situations have unfolded and Sam and Dean have pulled that bond together again. It still hurts to see Dean like this ;A;;;;
Florence Mauricio To be honest, I think Dean has a good point. Dean sees Sam as "Sammy" precisely because he was more of a father to Sam than just a big brother. Numerous times in the series it has been shown. Dean took care of Sam; Dean gave Sam Christmas; Dean fed Sam; Dean protected him from monsters, demons, angels and more. Throughout the time before the series, Dean was the mediator between Sam and their father. He wasn't given a choice but to see Sam almost like a son. In many ways, HE raised Sam. So he sees Sam's desire to run away like a father would. Running away from John is one thing. Dean, however, always tried to find a way to protect Sam and still give him something even remotely akin to a normal life....well, at least as normal as life could be when you have monsters on your tail. Dean damn near traded any shot he ever had at a normal life to try and make Sam's better. For that reason, it is very understandable that he would be upset that Sam's greatest memories were leaving the family. John, sure -- but him? When he fought tooth and nail to try and take care of Sam, emotionally? When Dean gave him Christmas, and took care of him when he was sick? After he took Sam out to shoot off fireworks to try and give him some semblance of normalcy? Dean had every right to be hurt. Unlike anyone else, Dean never tried to force the life on Sam. He just didn't understand why Sam felt like he had to run away. He wasn't just running away from John, after all. When you put everything into perspective, it just makes the Season 5 ending so much more poignant and definitive. As long as I live, THAT is the true ending to Supernatural.
DigitalOberon Truely nice, very good point. But you're right, Sam didn't just run away from Dean, I know that. But Dean WAS following John's orders like a solider and I respect his love for his dad, I really do. Maybe Sam wanted Dean to come with him, and he possibly did want Dean to come with him, but Dean might have been too far gone with John to leave with him and just left, feeling bad for leaving Dean and not telling him why he left him, not because he wanted to. The brother/father-ing Dean did for Sam is much appreciated and Sam is happy that Dean did everything for him. I love Dean for all he's done, he's amazing for stuff that John would never have come close to earning Sam's love and devotion. The flaws with some seasons with both brothers that their trait and mess ups is the 'getting pulled back into the job' thing that still gets to me. Idiotic and selfish as they are, they're still brothers, of course. They have crazy reasons that I can't stay mad over. And sometimes, there is no reason, but they stick together til it's resolved.
+Florence Mauricio Dean does treat Sam as 'little Sammy', but let's face it. When it comes to decision - taking or fending for himself, Sam is 'little Sammy'. I'm not saying that Sam is useless or Dean is better. (Probably Sam can kick Dean's butt). And yes, Sam does the research and is all nerd and smart. However, Sam tends to take very poor decisions and gets himself into trouble way more often than Dean. I mean, they're only human and I love them both, but Sam does need a babysitter.
+soah whoami I personally don't believe Sam made bad decisions. And they aren't worse than Dean's because Dean made just as worst decisions as Sam. So they're equally at fault. And no, Sam does not need a babysitter, he is capable of taking care of himself and being coddled all the time is not going to make him a better person or be on his own, too bad his and Dean's life wasn't all fun and rainbows. He makes it clear that being watched 24/7 with a hunter of a father and a too-loyal-and-not-so-supportive brother was getting too much for him and so he fought for his independence until he got it. And that is not bad. Everybody has a breaking point and I can understand Sam's feelings to certain extent. I'd be done with my family too and want to get the hell out to leave and live a life and go to school and want to be on my own after I've been constantly watched without getting a chance to have a regular day in my life and be given an order like some soldier at war. And whether it may not be the case, Sam is stronger than he looks. It's his guilt that's holding him back.
I really do not like picking up fights or giving the wrong impressions, that's the reason why I'm replying. When i brought up the Sam's wrong decision making, I am not saying that Dean is always right. Especially when it comes to the greater good and large sized evil plots, both boys sometimes screw it up - which is normal when keeping in mind that they are two human beings trying to help in a situation that is just too big and impossible for them. However, Sam is usually trusty and idealistic (I am talking about regular episode plots here). He has the tendency to believe that dreams come true - which is really sweet of him, but gets him into trouble. He thinks he can be normal and have bonds, but in reality he should know that their lives are being played by greater powers and the best thing he can do is run for his life or fight. We saw that since season 1, when Sam was keeping in touch with his college friends and in the end of the episode cut them off anyway (just like Dean told him he would have to). There are things that won't leave Sam (or Dean, for the matter) alone. Sam fails to see that. Also he is trusting and forgiving and tries to give second chances. That makes him a great guy. But half the time it turns out that he is giving away his trust unwisely (and no, I am not judging him for the Ruby thing). On the other hand I do agree that wanting to get away from John and the hunter's life is not a selfish thing. Heck, even Dean wanted to give up that kind of life too (Bad boys episode). But had Sam thought it through, he would see that he was never gonna escape that life. When supernatural creatures are after you, you can't be a normal college boy. So he'd better get used to it and try to survive, or he or his family would get hurt in the process of protecting him. Anyway, this is just my thought on the situation. Maybe being an older sibling to a sister that doesn't think things through is blinding my reasoning ;) But kind of like Dean, I am always warning her, then seeing her screw up, cleaning her mess and biting my tongue so that I don't say 'I told you so'. And once again - Sam is not stupid or irresponsible and Dean is definitely not perfect. But Dean is somewhat more practical and realistic. Sam can be very cunning once he recognizes friend from foes and becomes aware of the situation, but until then, chances are he gets easily fooled around. That's the curse of being a goody - goody kid :D PS: love your picture - reminds me of my pikachu plush toy, only this one is cuter
“Man I didn’t get the crusts cut off my PB&J” is such an underrated line because it truly explains a lot about Sam also people forget John would visit Sam in college to make sure he was safe
i truly honestly will never understand why some people insist on acting like john was not an abusive piece of shit. him loving his sons does not equal out the fact that he was abusive. and john having his own trauma to work through - so what? like that excuses anything?
He was not abusive he was tough that is different. A lot of people kind of forget that John wasn’t raised as a hunter and in his early 30s saw a demon KILL HIS WIFE. That plus ptsd from being a soldier affected a lot of his decisions but he never actually hurt his sons. If sam and dean hated their dad so much would they have even looked for him at the beginning of the show? Especially Sam he could’ve easily told dean fuck off dad beat us no he said dad raised them tough but he still helped look for the old fuck.
@lagolindari well if you look at it. it seems as if sam's heaven is goin in order from when things happend. dean's on the other hand seems more sporadic. dean's memories are jumping from one age to another in no real order. sam's seem to be going from when he was younger to when he was older. so if they had stayed in heaven a bit longer then yeah, i'm sure jess would have shown up soner or later
I'm so sick of people saying Sam is selfish. These clearly aren't his happiest memories it is so blatantly obvious that Zachariah manipulated in order to break the bond between the brothers. So that Dean would say yes and it almost worked. I mean really you don't think Jess would have been in his heaven? Come on guys they are each other's everything. Sam is not selfish from wanting to get away from their father. Dean could have left as well. His father is the one that said not to ever come back and he never tried to reach out to Sam. Every single Winchester has made so many mistakes so can we stop blaming Sam!
zachiarah: wow running from angels on foot in heaven with that kind of out of the box thinking i'm surprised you boys haven't stopped the apocalypse already. zack: guys come on you can run but you can't run.
"Wow, this is one of the worst nights of my life" this specific line really shows the acting skills from Jensen. From season 1 to the very last episode we see this unbelievable growth in acting skills from all of the main characters but not more then from Jensen and Padalecki. You notice an odd pairing in the first couple of seasons, possibly some conflict in egos but as the show progressed its very hard to not think of these two as Real people and even more so as Real Brothers. There will never be another show in the future that goes as long and as popular as Supernatural.
I think perspective on Dean and Sam change as the person who watches gets older, probably how Dean and Sam reviewed their memories of each other later, and understood each other more. At that moment, Dean’s reaction was immediately painful. He wasn’t thinking about their entire childhood and future, just, that, you left me. You didnt care about me. Me, who gave you everything I had, who gave you more than I could possibly bear, in your last place of happiness, you choose leaving me. Maybe Sam's memory doesnt have to be the night he left, because of course he has a right to do whatever he wants, maybe it could be later, when he's doing well at school and Dean is busy in his own life too. At that moment though, being torn away from his brother, the only constant in his life, it was very harsh for Dean to see. Also Sam had made choices in the last season, choosing others over Dean and perhaps that betrayal hadn't completely heal yet. As for running away and not telling Dean. Sam is still a child, and their lives are not stable in the least. Dean can wonder about so many awful things that might happen. This is one of the strangest things in the series. Dean might not have been the best brother, because Sam does it to Dean, not when john is around. Also Sam doesn't seem to know that Dean could be yelled at or otherwise. Like he lives with them, doesn't seem to have many friends, all he knows is them, and yet that Dean will face consequences for his actions never occurred to him for years. So in that way, Sam was protected. I dont know, but their relationship with their father is different. Sam isnt afraid , he argues and says whatever he wants. Dean doesn't. And maybe Dean is so scared to lose another person, he'd rather just be quiet. Because to him there is worse pain than his life and that was his loss. Also the way they revert to anger, either getting punched and just accepting it, is not normal. Even if theyre hunters, its wrong. Bobby doesnt go around punching people. They accept this behaviour without ever even thinking it should be different and it results in the end of the series. Anyway anyways.
John may not have physically abused Sam and Dean but he emotionally abused them and in some ways that is worse. Dean was a child and suddenly he has to protect the family because John dragged them around the country to find the demon that killed Mary because he wanted revenge. I know grief can twist a mind but when you have kids you can't do that. No child should ever have to be the parent to their sibling, live from motel to motel, or have to steal food. John never manned up and became the dad they needed and deserved. Bobby was a much better parent to Sam and Dean, John should have left them with him while he went off on his revenge quest. I am glad Cas made Dean see he wasn't daddy's blunt instrument, he wasn't a solider, he could be happy.
I see a lot of people debating on John being a good father or not. He is not! John may not have been physically abusive but he was emotionally and mentally. One of the memories that really come to mind is a flashback. When Dean was younger and Bobby was supposed to being teaching him how to shoot a gun but instead was playing ball with. The fact that John good mad about this says something. I don’t think he would ever lay a hand on them because I think his intentions were good. But sometimes parents have good intentions that cause harm to their children. I get he wanted to keep his sons safe but there were ways to do that without stripping away their childhood.
You know, they mentioned that fight between sam and john quite a bit in the earlier seasons. They even brought it up in season 14. I'm surprised we never saw it
so sam is just not aloud to be happy or smth? he's not aloud to have happy memories that don't involve his family? this shit is so upsetting :( like dean has to realize that their family was a toxic environment for sam and that him leaving is not a slight on dean, it really has everything to do with john and the stifling aspects of their upbringing that constantly made sam feel like he wasn't good enough, like he was baggage and a disappointment , i get why dean has a hard time realizing that, i really do, considering how they are different people who respond different to their childhood abuse... i just don't think sam should be guilt tripped for leaving and finding joy in the few moments of true independence he's had, the narrative often makes him seem like the bad guy for that and i hate it
The problem is the fact that Sam being the emotionally involved and smart person that he is, not realizing the affect that his actions had on Dean, and not taking the time to explain to Dean that he wasn’t leaving because of him. Even after they meet back up again he never clarifies that and that’s the problem. And Dean needs that clarification he needs to be verbally spoken to about that it’s just part of his character. it’s not about whether or not Sam chose his own happiness, it’s about the fact that Sam didn’t think about other people. And I’m not saying that Sam didn’t deserve to be happy I’m saying the way he went about it, and not recognizing the effect his choices had is really infuriating. And truth be told selfish. He could’ve still had the life. He could’ve not had those miscommunications with Dean had he have of just clarified that he wasn’t leaving because of him.
@MsDoctorWhoFan1 well who wouldn't wanna get away from the strangeness of being a 9th grader hunting down a werewolf for a "family holiday"? but still, dean did it all too. they both lived through the same crap-tastic life, they just dealt with it differently. but really? EVERY happy memory? every happy memory of sams is with OUT his family. it's gotta suck for dean to have to live through it when he is so intent on being with, and being part of his family
I hate Dean's attitude towards Sam here. I get where he's coming from but that doesn't make it alright. How can Dean fail to understand that Sam's happiest memories are running away from him because he was never able to make Sam happy.
how dare you?Dean had a chance to live his normal life while he was 16!he gave it up for Sam!what the hell Sam did?leave the second John kicked him out without even saying goodbye to his brother!and never thought for a second that maybe he's sad or hurt or anything which turned out to be worst!and that shit was his idea of heaven!never gave a damn about how much sacrifice his brother has made and only cared about his own issues with John and never considered maybe Dean also had problems with him!only his own happiness and feelings mattered and doesn't matter if it's made on his brother's broken things!Dean's reaction is totally justifiable!Sam literally just wanted everything for himself while Dean can rot in what ever misery he is in!so you shut your mouth
@@altinaykor364 For the record, Sam had a chance to get away from his family at the age of 15 too, but he didn't, for Dean. And we don't know how that fight between Sam and John went down, we didn't see it on screen. How can you just assume Sam didn't care about how much his leaving hurt Dean or that he didn't say goodbye? And while we're at that, Sam's leaving probably hurt Sam more than either Dean or John, he was absolutely alone and away from the one person he loved the most, his brother. But he had one thing he'd never had before, freedom. Trust me when I say this, that's enough of a reason to be really happy even in the crappiest times for a person who's never been free. That's why it's Sam's idea of heaven. And what is this bullshit about hating him for leaving when John kicked him out? You do realise he was KICKED OUT right? He didn't exactly have the option to stick around, what do you expect him to do, beg John to let him stay? And for what, to be abused by John more, or to never be supported by Dean in any fight? Sam realises the sacrifices Dean has made for him more than anyone else, that's the reason he stuck around for so long in the first place even when he had the chance to leave earlier. But that fight with John was the tipping point and Sam couldn't sacrifice his freedom for the family anymore, a sacrifice Dean forever failed to recognize, not when Dean always always took John's side in a fight and failed to understand Sam's perspective. Sam didn't want that freedom and happiness just for himself, he wanted it for Dean too, that's why he tried so hard to convince Dean to go live with Lisa so many times. But Dean always chose John and his selfish bullheaded lust for revenge in the name of loyalty over happiness for himself or his brother. Sam knew that was a dead end street and not worth traveling, that's why he left. Dean realized that it was a dead end street too when he was talking to Michael, it was just too late by then. Dean even admitted that he was wrong to take John's side every time in order to keep the peace, something he apologized for, and Sam is the one who reassured him again that he really appreciated that Dean was the only one who was there for him. So you can bark all you want, you are wrong. Even Dean thinks so.
@@shrutimahant you're imagination is great but still untrue!Sam didn't gave up on his freedom in age of 15 especially not for Dean!he left the second he got chance!and who the hell defended John?John kicked him out,he didn't give a DN about what his brother is feeling and didn't even said goodbye, didn't even care maybe his dad also start a fight with his brother and just left!and like I said consider that as his heaven like only his happiness mattered and Dean could be sacrificed all he wants!and didn't give a damn about maybe his brother is dead or alive for two years!he is selfish and you're imagination about Dean apologizing is also laughable!he apologized for giving up and accept Michael not for this!he had every right to be angry and react this way!and for your information during John and Sam's fight he took no one's side and told both of them to shut up!and he kept more secrets from John which Sam can even imagine!while for Sam he was not even worthy to say goodbye or consider him as a happy memory!
@@altinaykor364 Wow, so apparently Sam having the choice of leaving his family at age 15 to go with Amy is imaginary, something that's canon because we saw it on screen, but Sam never saying goodbye or not caring for Dean is not imaginary even though we never saw that on screen and there is no evidence to prove it in the canon?! Sam isn't selfish, he has some self respect. Since you are too blind to realize that and too biased to not only ignore Sam's perspective but also throw canonical facts out the window in favour of cooking up your own narrative to fit your biases, there's no point in arguing your skewed perception and invalid notions, nor is it worth wasting my time and energy on someone like you. So I'll go live my life while you cling to your biases and unwise hatred of an amazing selfless character out of sheer spite and ignorance, not to mention stubbornness. Go find someone else to bark at, someone who doesn't care about logic or facts and actually gives a damn about listening to your bull crap! I've got better things to do.
@@shrutimahant leaving with Amy?that really you call giving up?hah!she was a Kitsune!a hunter and a creature who feeds on brain can get along?he wasn't even that interested in leaving with her!while Dean somehow found a heaven!and it wasn't official as well, while Dean's choice was completely official in age of 16,he even wanted to talk to John about it,but gave up only by seeing Sam!and you think just because it wasn't on screen isn't real?Dean told the way he spent that night!and say it's imagination,did Sam give a damn about his family being alive or not in Stanford?No!he even got angry at Dean for showing up!and never asked himself maybe something which makes my happiness is built on someone else's broken life!the fact that maybe one of those someones is his brother makes it even worse! that's not self respect, that's called wanting everything only for himself and doesn't matter maybe it hurts someone else,or his brother!and all your kind like to lecture and write a Tomar and in the end say I don't care😂😂😂😂
@Joerca44 yeah, becasue in the epsiode he says "you only see this because you're limitted." they've seen Zachariah before (in his vessel) that's how they see him.
Zachariah's obsession with Dean was one of the greatest plot developments from this arc How the fuck do you constantly get away from a creature that has omnipotence?
When Sam ran off first time, it was unintentionally selfish. He was a kid who was always controlled by Dean or his father and kept in the dark. He didn't think what would happen to Dean as Dean often didn't think about Sam when kept secrets from him, dropped at the clown park of amusement and generally been rude. But it was still wrong to run off like that. Tho situation with stanford is different. Sam wasn't really a kid anymore. He could and should choose what he wanted to make of his life. He chose to go away from hunting to college. Dean and John had to let him go and support. It's what real family does. But of course they turned Sam into selfish traitor for choosing free will. If Dean didn't want to be a hunter, he should have gone with Sam. The sad part of all these is Dean denying Sam happy memories. Now they are filled with guilt and selfhate.
@joisey10 i would want to get away from it too. Like sam did. I mean that is some scary stuff (if it was real) who wouldn't want a normal life eventually. but I like that he's still with Dean.
I refuse to believe that only those memories were Sam’s ideas of heaven. He’s developed into a smarter and more experienced person, and no matter what, Dean is his rock. There’s no way his end heaven or whatever would be without Dean
if tht was me running and hiding with my sister she would be like 'what do we do, what do we do' and i would be like 'run, run, run!'. Omg it would be so cool and funny if cas was in heaven, zapped right in front of the boys and zachariah and said bk off or something and stared fighting him and protecting them from him
Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh ............. sorry to break it to you pal but Dean's life was prominently cut short at the age of 40 (I think that's the age). soooooo yeahhhhh......
@@tarasa3335 yeah when he was an old man going to see the impala lol it was so bad it made me laugh my ass off while crying cuz I was still sad cuz dean died
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It took me a while to understand why Dean took Sam running from their dad so personally. Then I realized he didn't separate Sam running from John and running from him. Making everything okay was Dean's job and Sam hating their childhood meant he failed.
Dean sacrificed everything to make it to work and it just couldn't because John was impossible to compromise with. Dean's too loyal to see that John is the villain, not Sam. Although taking off on Dean's watch was a dick move.
John isn’t the villain. You’re too narrow minded to see that. As many people forget when watching these scenes, if it wasn’t for EVERYTHING John did to toughen them up they’d be long DEAD. 90% of all things would *love* to kill and eat those boys, especially more so being from a family of hunters. People watch these domestic moments and forget that just because it wasn’t a wholesome childhood doesn’t mean it WAS abusive either. John wasn’t jumping from motels and yelling at the boys for nothing. He wasn’t hard on them just because he was a former military man and an asshole. He knew only a fraction of the evils Sam and Dean actually experienced and refused to let them grow up in such a world without the tools necessary to kick its ass. Remember when Dean met literal Satan and despite wearing his brother body, killing the future Dean effortlessly, and being terrified; Dean still tells Lucifer to stick it and he’ll find him and kill him. Most people could barely speak if put in that kind of situation.
@@Barrythebarnabasthe main problem with John was his obsession with killing yellow eyes and putting it over everything. John was right to raise them in the life because they were always going to be targets. But barely being home and treating Dean like a tool and Sam like a son was wrong. Also getting mad at Sam for wanting to live normal is wrong.
"Wow! Running from angels... On foot... In Heaven... With "out of the box" thinking like that i'm surpised you guys haven't stoped the apocalipse already!" ROFL
Roasted
I wish they had actually shown the real scene of Sam leaving for college, and John telling him to never come back, and what Dean said. It's always felt like the pivotal flashback of this show to have at some point.
That would've been awesome
agreed
Totally agree
I still wish they’d do a prequel trilogy movie series of John raising the boys. I’ve got a feeling there’s so much to be told! Each movie could focus on a different Winchester. Movie one on John and coping with Mary’s death while also ‘seeing evil everywhere’ (his quote from S1, which I always took as a euphemism for ‘btws, Sam, there’ve always been demons surrounding you’). The second one told from Dean’s perspective, going from middle school to high-school, and his not wanting to be a hunter but still wanting to be like his dad and putting up a brave face for Sam. The third one from Sam’s perspective, (14-19), seeing his life now that Dean was out of school and likely full-time hunting with John + the year he possibly took off between high school and university (he’s about 19.33 when he starts at Stanford, so he either started school a year late, was delayed a year due to moving around so much, or took a year hunting with John and Dean in between there.) And finally, at the end of that Summer, John finds out and there’s a big explosive fight.
I want it SO BAAAAD!
I think John probably had tears in his eyes when Sam actually did it. It hurt Dean to say those words later on so I can only imagine how tough it must’ve been saying that to your kid
I feel so sorry for Dean! His family means everything to him, especially Sam. It must have really hurt to see that Sams happy memories are only without him. ;(
"and when dad came home..." if you think for one minute that John Winchester wasn't an abusive father let me tell you a thing. Dean's face breaks my heart when he says this, he looks terrified of remembering what John did to him
Emotionally sure, but physically, no.
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Yeah , that's why he loved his father so much ... Just look at this hug .. Dean loved his father .. and one simply can't be that close to an abusive parent .
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He would never
@@namrata9218 the thing with abuse especially verbal abuse is that your brain plays tricks on you a lot. You see one act of what would be kindness and think maybe the person changed. Abuse is like that. John was pretty verbally abusive by the sounds of it and Dean stuck through it all. John even said that Dean could rot in jail for all he cared when he stole food because he knee Sam would get hungry when he was younger. Sam actually left which is why they argued more because sam saw more and realized more of his dads ways. When their dad realized his effects on his kids was around the time he died which is why he helped them when the gate to hell opened up
"And when dad came home..." His face breaks my heart. I know that face. I've seen it over and over on so many abuse survivors....getting choked up just thinking/talking about what happened. So if you still think John Winchester was a good father, you might need to watch the series over again. Bobby was 200% more of a dad than John ever was...even when Mary was alive.
+Angie Wallace Definitely agree with almost everything you said. John was a good man (or at least tried to be). But he was a crappy father. However, I really don't think John ever laid a hand on Dean. Not only it seems outside of John's character, but also does not make sense judging from Dean's reaction. Dean has been into physical pain countless times and is never affected of it. His weakness are his feelings. You want to torture Dean - make him feel useless, a failure, make him hate himself. I'm quite sure John';s reaction was that of emotional violence - and it wasn't even intentional. For John, protecting Sam has always been way more important that protecting Dean because Sam was the fragile one, the baby in the crib witnessing his mother burn on the ceiling of his nursery. Therefore, the moment sam runs away on dean's guard, for John dean becomes worthless. Dean on the other hand always only cared of his brother's well being and his father's acknowledgement. That's why John's yelling was all he needed to suffer. (On the side note, i think this is the kind of relationship dean had with his family - we always would seek the best for sammy, some acknowledgement from John and some love / care from Mary. Deep down dean is a mommy's boy, she was the only person with whom he could allow himself to be normal - not the obedient soldier, the tough / jerk brother or the ladies man.)
+soah whoami I agree with you that John must have used emotional pain on Dean, not physical. But I believe he did his best with what he got. He could've have become an abusive alcoholic father, beating the boys like the father of that other kid in season one, but no, instead he learned everything he could about the new world he had just discovered and trained the boys, prepared the boys for the life he knew they would have, because something was after them after all, it would be stupid to just sit on their asses and wait to be killed. And yet, the man saved so many lives, taught his kids how to do the same and defend themselves. They couldn't drink or smoke or any of that, just like regular teenagers. Do you think the boys would love him (and they did, Sam left his Apple pie life to go after him after all, and Dean also loved his father like crazy, wanting to be like him in many aspects, and both of them said it on 10x09) And in the end, he put his revenge aside to save his son.
+Cecilia Cabrini My comment was more focused in the analysis of what Dean says - 'and when dad came home'. And I would still stick to the idea that John was not a good father. He lacked emotional closure and understanding of his boys and he controlled them in a fiery way - Dean through his emotions and Sam by trying to use some authority. Bobby did a much better job in his limited time as a surrogate father, even though he was just as much of a hunter as John. However, in no way would I say that he did not love his boys. He did have his reasons, although not justifiable. John did try to do what he thought best, and I would agree that most of his mistakes were because he just could not handle this situation. He was alone and unprepared. Besides, heck, no preparation in the world is enough when your wife dies burned in your 6 months year old nursery ceiling, and you find out that there are creatures out there which most people will never see (or live to tell).
+Angie Wallace I agree. I remember back in Season 7, Episode 10, they showed flashbacks of Bobby talking to John on the phone and telling him that his sons need their father around. It also shows him taking Dean to the park to play catch. John was good at keeping the boys alive and teaching them how to fend for themselves, but being a father is more than that. Being a father means encouraging your kids and making sure they have good memories of you. Though, I think he learned his lesson, because he took Adam (his other son) to baseball games.
Angie Wallace I was a victim of child abuse and you are so very right. The look on deans face when he said "And when Dad came home..." is the same look I have when my friends ask me about my abusive past
I'm actually sorry for both of them in this scene. For Sam because his lucky memory got more or less destroyed and he feels guilty and for Dean because I really don't wanna know what John's mood was and what he did to Dean after he came home without Sam!! As we all know, John was always more fatherlike to Sam than to Dean!
Not that you will see this, but I agree with you.I feel sorry for both of them.
And Sam thought he was a piece of shit, so what does that tell you...
He wasn't father like to either one of them, though. He left a 9 year old Sam completely alone when he deemed a 12 year old Dean old enough to start hunting with him. NINE years old. That is not fatherly, that is neglect and abuse.
At first I wondered why Sam leaving for Stanford was one of the worst nights of Dean's life even after he had watched Sam die, but then I realized that when Sam died he was forced to leave Dean and when he took off for Stanford it was the first time he chose to leave him behind.
That's kinda sounds selfish tbh. You made it look like Dean doesn't really care what happens to Sam, only if Sam is with him. What is better, if you're sibling is away but happy, or dead but he didn't leave you?
+ john possibly fucking hitting him and making clear to dean that he failed once more because he is such a failure in their family. that, too, must have been really nice to live, y'know.
It broke his heart because he gave up his heaven at that camp for Sam but to realize Sam was his most happiest away from him and on the night John probably let him have it & he was with his brother and left him
@@kevvwinnin4747 okay what the hell is wrong with you people sam wasn't running away or trying to get away from dean he went to Stanford to quit hunting to go to college and go to law school to become a lawyer so he could have a normal life so he could quit hunting because he hated it. isn't it a little hypocritical when the people in the comments section judge be sam for quiting hunting so he can have a normal life when dean did the same thing at the end of season five after sam and dean defeated michael and lucifer by putting lucifer back in the cage and sending him back to hell dean quit hunting at the end of season five beginning of season six to have a normal life with lisa and ben. yet no one judges him for it sam didn't ditch his family and leave his family or dean behind he was quitting hunting because he hated it. hell the first episode of season one sam told dean dean i swore i was done hunting for good to which dean responds by saying c'mon it wasn't easy but it wasn't that bad.
I think watching Sam die was THE worst. Not one of the worst.
"it´s supposted to be you and me against the world!"
Oh my god.... feels... It hurts........
Sam and Dean were both treated differently when they were growing up, making it difficult for each of them to understand each other. The way I see it is that Sam never had time with his mom and grew up with a father who was barely ever around, He seems to appreciate his brothers doings and raising him, but he has a lot of family issues Then there is Dean who had to grow up at a young age. Caring for his brother 24/7 while John was never around. I love this show but damn they make me so sad haha
are we all going to pretend like this is actually Sam's heaven when none of the memories included Jess?
Sam liked for 26 years.
He probably had many happy memories.This Heaven worked much like a dream, dreams dont care about time so maybe he just didnt get to the Jess part yet
Two things.
One, at this point in time 'Heaven" is a series of closed doors. That means that Jessica would never actually appear in Sam's memories - just a shade of her. This is key.
Second, you have to know that Sam is aware of Heaven and its rules.
Most people who die are oblivious to Heaven's rules. It's why when we see Bobby he's sitting alone reading a book, listening to the radio. If you knew the person you loved was locked away in their own heaven, would you abuse their memory in Heaven knowing what it is?
This sort've ruins it for anyone whose had a peek behind the curtain. They can't remain oblivious to it - they'd know they're talking to a glorified sock puppet. Meanwhile Sam feels guilty for having brought Jessica into "the life". Her death is on him, had she never met him she'd be alive. This taints any and all of Sam's memories with her. The moment he'd see "Jessica" he'd be plagued with guilt.
You put all this together and Sam's complicated feelings don't "work". He selects a few paltry moments of freedom instead. Dean should be looking at Sam right now and not giving him shade - but feeling sorry for Sam, whose "dreams" are so paltry, so small, so modest compared to the life he lived. Did Sam ever stop and actually "live"?
Are these brief moments of hope the best he has?
It's dark, but that's how Heaven worked until the end of the series.
I still feel like Zachariah manipulated Sam's memories to convince Dean to say yes to Michael.
@@riyak.7393 wow I never thought like this. I liked your theory
The thing is, I think this whole thing was orchestrated to pin the two of them against each other. They showed moments that they knew would trigger the other. Jess may have done that, but I think seeing Sam's happy memories are all the times he abandoned their family would hit harder than him meeting Jess. Same for Sam seeing that for a bit, Dean had the happy childhood that he would never have.
I think the reason Sam's happiest memories were of the times he ran away is that those were the rare times of his life where he felt like he had taken control over his own life. Sam was kept in the dark about all the horrors John and Dean hunted for a long time, and was more often than not left alone or with Dean in whatever motel room they were set up in. Dean watched out for him, yes, and there's no denying he was a better caregiver than John ever was, but he wasn't always very kind to Sam. This is especially evident when Sam asks questions that Dean doesn't want to answer. I feel like the first time Sam ran away, it was because he was tired of all the secrecy and Dean bossing him around and being cooped up in a dingy motel room. Flagstaff was the very first time he didn't feel trapped. You've got to understand that he was just a confused, frustrated kid. Children, especially in this mindset, do not consider how their actions may affect others. Sam was not in the right, but John's reaction was NOT his fault - and even so you can see the crushing guilt settle on Sam's face when Dean tells him what happened that day.
As for Stanford, again, I don't think he was worried about Dean that much, because Dean at least seemed content to be a hunter. This was the night when he'd finally escaped John, and that's what mattered to him. I have no doubt John abused Sam as well as Dean; at the very past, he severely neglected him, and it's been stated multiple times that they fought a lot. So when Sam finally escaped, of course he was happy. Sam may regret it, but in that very moment he WAS happy, and probably proud of himself for going through with his dreams.
But now, looking back, he sees how selfish he was, and how he'd hurt Dean. And I have no doubt that he hates himself for it. So while I really do feel for Dean, and I can clearly see how this affected him, you've got to remember that Sam suffered the same hellish childhood that Dean did, although suffering differently. He worked hard to get out, not fully understanding what it would do to his brother. So while they may have been selfish decisions, it's not hard to see why he made those decisions. Sam and Dean both want and deserve to be happy, and Sam couldn't yet bring himself to accept that this would be his life. He was in denial, and that isn't hard to understand when he was raised in such horrific circumstances. He kept telling himself "this won't be forever, I know it," and on these days he was able to really, truly believe that. He wasn't trying to ditch his family; he was trying to be happy. He was naive and selfish, and the biggest part of this is that he knows that now. He regrets these memories so much, despite the fact that at the time, he was happy.
Wonder Warrior "Dean wasn't very nice to him" Well, he was only missing out on most of his own childhood, I wouldn't be too happy either, especially when most of it was spent sacrificing for Sam, and even then he tried to keep Sam happy, going as far as stealing presents to keep Sam happy during Christmas. By being secretive he was trying to protect Sam, which had been ingrained into his brain by John and even before that. I'm also pretty sure that being an older sibling comes with bossing the smaller sibling around, probably because you're older and therefore more experienced, and you could also be trying to protect them.
@@impala-67 I have to agree with you here. Dean tried his best to give Sam as normal of a childhood he could. He hid things from Sam to protect him from the harsh reality. And don't tell me Sam was abused by John too because he wasn't. Dean never let John touch Sam. That is very evident from the way Dean stood in between them while they were arguing, pushing John away. Dean always took the beating.
@@athira2966 Abuse are not only phisical. It can be mental too. John surelly loved them and did his best to protect and prepair them over situation he was in, but this doesn't change the fact he wasn't in his best mindset to raise a child, let alone two. He was authoritary, and possessive. Sam and Dean reacted the opposite ways. Dean used to follow John and obey him, admiring his dad like a god, while Sam was done with it. John abused both of them, specially mentaly.
In my perspective, Sam wasn't selfish at all. There is absolutelly nothing wrong with wanting the best for your life, despite what your family thinks or choose. For more that was understandable over what happened to Mary, hunting the demon who killed her was John's choice, and he was forcing a sick revenge in his sons. Also Dean always was emotionally dependent of his family, but he was a grown up man. Sam had any obligation to be stuck in a situation that makes him miserable because Dean wanted to be besides his dad. Dean could have left with Sam that night, I'm sure Sam would take him. But Dean chose to stay with John, and Sam can't stop his life over it. In season 1 Dean himself said that admired Sam for that. I don't think Sam was wrong for leaving.
But was just a point, I agree with everything you said. ^_^
@@taynahibanez9952 I am not supporting John here at all. I agree that he wasn't ready to raise two children on his own. He didn't have to, cause Dean did all the raising part. If you watch the show again, you will find that both Sam and Dean loved their father very much. And they did everything to find and save him. I don't think they would have done that if John was that terrible of a father. He must have done something right tbh. And yes, Dean always followed orders because he taught that was the right thing to do. But in 1x11, Dean although at first mad at Sam for disobeying John's order, he tells him that he is PROUD of Sam for being able to stand up against him and that he wished he could the same too.
I feel really bad for Dean. Part of the reason he was mad at Sam for running away is because of the abuse he got from John when he found out. Poor Dean.
Not to mention Dean was probably worried sick about him and Sam is remembering that we fun.
@@kristinhiser2883
Exactly. Dean said it himself, he was looking everywhere for him.
I understand sammy perfectly, i know that dean feels like sam left him and not his dad, but gaining independence is somethig he wanted, needed even, he wanted normal just like his mother, and yet people blame him for going after his dream.
+Dann DJ People seem to forget that normal would have never worked for Sam. The thing is that after Mary's death, the Winchesters would never be safe. It's not like Dean chose to live a miserable life. But the fact was that the boy's life was going to be dangerous and miserable. Sam chose to ignore this and follow his dreams. How nice would his dreams turn out if he was killed by the thing that murdered Mary? The only way Sam's plans for independence would have worked was with Sam being the happy college boy and Dean and John at his back, taking care of Sam. That's why Sam is selfish. He is reckless, assuming that he is living his life. But in reality Sam can only live his life as long as Dean sacrifices his for Sam's well being. This was written from the boy's perspective at the time Sam ditched John and Dean for Stanford . I know that Sam was safe, being guarded by Lucifer's followers. But neither Sam or Dean knew. And they both took their decisions believing that Sam was in danger. The difference was that Dean actually thought matters through and cared what the consequences were. Sam did not
Yeah,I totally understand Sam too.He just wanted normal life and independence.He was young back then,he thought that he can still make his dreams come true.You could see he was happy on Stanford with Jess.If I was him,I would do the same thing.
True I dont think everyone would want to keep doing this for their entire lives
@@soahwhoami5979 None of this made any sense.
No matter what happened jessica would have died the only difference there would have been was Dean being there and not being there to get him out of the fire
This thought just came to me, and it could be complete BS. But what if Zach was controlling what they saw for Sam's heaven to drive a wedge between the brothers in hopes of getting dean to say yes. Because there's no way in hell that Sammy doesn't have one amazing memory with Dean that would be used as one of these greatest memory things.
He succeeded too. Because about 2 episodes later Dean lost hope and decided to say yes. And that's a very popular theory in the fandom, I think.
Not only that one of deans memories was there mom making him a sandwich with no crusts which hurt Sam’s feelings. And yes i think Zach purposely only showed certain memories because Sam def has a few with dean hell probably even one with his dad
Dean just breaks my heart throughout this scene
If you really think about it, don’t you think that the angels might have messed with Sam’s heaven to mess with Dean just so he would say yes to Micheal
Now that i think about it, This whole episode has Zach's name written all over it.
Yes!!!!
I would agree except for the fact that Sam actually agrees that these are in fact his real memories of times that he was the happiest.
@@marymartindale884he also said that he couldn't control it
Maybe he was just trying to justify what he was seeing
@@marymartindale884yes but they showed the moments that would’ve hurt dean the most and also showed the moment Mary made dean food something Sam never got Zack did elite gaslighting
Here is the thing: Dean and Sam were both children raised in a dysfunctional, abusive family environment. But though they grew up in the same environment, they grew and responded to it in different ways. To put simply:
Dean's response was to not rock the boat. He wanted to keep things as peaceful as possible in the family, likely to foster a sense of safety (because John was at the very least emotionally abusive to both boys, if not physically, and also because actual demons and monsters were trying to kill them and they had less chance of dying if they were focused on fighting the monsters and not each other). So Dean's response to the abusive family environment was to follow John's every order and never even think about leaving the family, because that would rock the boat and create a conflict. And so long as there was no inter-family conflict and things were peaceful, Dean could convince himself that he was happy.
Sam, on the other hand, just wanted to get out of the boat, period. Due to the abusive and dysfunctional nature of it, Sam felt it was *always* rocking, and he didn't much care if he rocked it worse trying to get to shore. All he cared about is that he escaped, because he felt *unsafe* in the family, likely because of John's behavior as much because of the demons and monsters they fought, and in his perspective keeping the peace wouldn't make him feel safe and so there was no point in trying. Sam's response to the abusive family environment was to escape as soon as he could. When Sam said he wanted a "normal" life, what he really meant was one free from abuse.
Neither of these responses are "wrong," because there is no "right" way to respond to abuse. Everyone is different, and so everyone responds to abuse differently, even within the same family. And while some could accuse Sam of being selfish by leaving Dean with John:
1.) A certain amount of selfishness is NECESSARY to be mentally and emotionally healthy. It is not wrong to set boundaries for yourself or remove yourself from harmful situations. Putting others before yourself 100% of the time is actually self-destructive. So while Sam was only thinking from his own perspective during the times he ran away, he was not wrong or bad for doing so. No one is EVER wrong or bad for wanting to leave an abusive environment.
2.) Dean is being just as selfish here in the present as Sam was in the past by ONLY thinking about himself, the consequences he faced, and how he felt. Sam listens to Dean's perspective here; he understands and apologizes. But Dean won't hear a word of it from Sam, because he's only thinking about how hurt he was that Sam left, that Sam had happy memories away from the family. Dean is selfish when it comes to Sam, in that he wants Sam to want the same things that he wants, and he gets wrapped up in his feelings when that's revealed not to be the case. Yes, Dean raised Sam (out of necessity since John certainly wasn't going to) and that was selfless, but refusing to see things from Sam's perspective and *being angry with him for being happy about leaving an abusive, dysfunctional family* is, in fact, selfish.
So while I still think that Heaven was manipulated here to show memories that would drive the brothers apart, I also don't think it's fair to rake Sam over the coals for them regardless. Sam was happy he escaped a dysfunctional and abusive family. That's valid. Dean is hurt that Sam's happy memories don't involve him, and that is also valid, but at the same time selfish in the sense that Dean is, well, being upset with Sam for being happy about the times he got to be away from the dysfunctional childhood they both grew up in. It's a complex situation, but speaking from experience, is one that is very realistic. (Aside from the monsters.)
this comment is such a diamond in the rough of comments always demonizing sam for wanting to leave a toxic environment, such a well thought out analysis, thank you so much for this comment
you're basically saying leaving someone who would sacrifice anything for you, in such a bad situation just cause your own wishes matters more, isn't bad or wrong and Dean is the wrong for being hurt for being treated this much unfairly?
Sam literally acted like it's Dean's fault that John kicked him out, like Dean was the reason for his miserable life and not even thought for a second that maybe it's not just about his trauma while Dean always had to push over his own trauma because of him.
keep this dumb excuse on your ass.
well said 🙌
How is Jensen SUCH A GOOD ACTOR! The emotions he conveyed in this scene!!
"Wow. Running from angels. On foot. In heaven. With out-of-the-box thinking like that, I'm surprised you haven't stopped the Apocalypse already."
Zach is an asshole, but his sass is the best.
And he gets cultural references better than anyone else. AND he gets three separate awesome deaths!!! Which is something that just NEVER gets old.
The worst part of this scene is that Sam's happy memory likely reminded Dean of a brutal beating from his father. They don't ever say it out loud, but Dean's face says everything you need to know. That's one of the reasons why the "get over yourself Dean" mentality of some of the writing on the show is so jarring - it's really not ever going to be easy to "get over" something like that.
John was not physically abusive; more emotionally.
Dean loved his dad , John was his hero . He wasn't the best father but he certainly wasn't abusive , I mean physically abusive
Ya he was more emotionally abusive than physically
It's John's fault not Sam's. And Dean still idolizes the man but hate on his brother? Sounds fair.
Amber XV what? Dean doesn’t idolize John and he sees Sam almost as his own kid, are we watching the same show?
“My father was an obsessed bastard! All that crap he dumped on me about protecting Sam, that was his crap. He's the one that couldn't protect his family! He's the one who let mom die! Who wasn't there for Sam, I always was! It wasn't fair! I didn't deserve what he put on me and I don't deserve to go to Hell!” s03e10, Dream a Little Dream of Me
“But, Sammy... C'mon... I killed Benny... to save you. I'm willing to let this bastard, and all the sons o' bitches that killed Mom, walk because of you. Don't you dare think that there is anything, past or present, that I would put in front of you! It has never been like that! Ever! I need you to see that. I'm beggin' you.” S08e23, Sacrifice
Are these the words of a man who idolizes his father and hates his brother?
“This is your idea of heaven? Wow, this is like one of the worst nights of my life” you could tell Dean wanted to sock him right in his mouth.
"Wow! Running from angels..on foot..in Heaven. With "out of the box" thinking like that, I'm surpised you guys haven't stopped the apocalapse already!"
As much as I love my Dean and Sam, Zacariah is the best badass angel of them all.
I'm like 200% sure John was abusive. 'And when Dad came home' 😭
Cesca Alice Right?? When people try to tell me that John Winchester didn't abuse his sons, I show them this and they shut up because you can see it in Dean's eyes
Nahhhh
If John abused Dean we would've seen it in Something Wicked. If anything, he yelled at Dean like he did in that episode. John treated his sons as soldiers, not as rag dolls to beat on. A father who beats his kids doesn't do it because they are overly protective and is afraid his kids will be killed by some force that killed his wife. They do it because they are either drunk and lose control over themselves or were beaten themselves and haven't learned to break the cycle. John was neither of those.
I'm getting really sick and tired of all the bashing I'm reading about him, mostly from people who probably weren't even watching the show when JDM was in it. A father's role isn't to coddle and nurture his kids like a mother does. A father's role is to teach his kids how to survive in a brutal and cold world. This is especially true in real life and a big reason why so many people in their 20's today from what I've seen can't handle the real world is because they didn't receive that from their parents and they expect everything to be puppy dogs and candy when they step into the real world. Some fathers have the luxury of being able to do some coddling/nurturing, but John Winchester certainly didn't have that luxury with all the stuff that he was saddled with. And unfortunately that made it especially tough on Dean who had to be like a father & mother to Sam when he didn't deserve to have that weight placed on him. But that wasn't John's fault. That was the crap circumstances imposed on John & his kids by the evil bastards that did what they did to them and by Michael whose grand plan the death of Mary was part of. I've even seen people blaming Mary for it after that episode in season 12 where Dean blames her, but I wouldn't blame her either.
Would John have raised his sons the way he did had Mary never died, of course not. Hell, I bet even if Mary still died but didn't die of supernatural causes, John wouldn't have raised them like he did. But when a man sees his wife pinned to a ceiling and bursting into flames, he would be a bad father if he didn't raise his kids the way John did to protect themselves against the evils out there. If John raised Sam & Dean the way people bashing him wanted him to, then they'd be dead 1000x over by now like any one of the victims in your typical opening scene of Supernatural. Not to mention that both Sam & Dean have put the way John raised them behind them and fully understand and appreciate why he did what he did.
I'm sure your dad would beat the hell out of you if you lost your kid brother.
@@wtcvidman I'm late, but it was mentioned in season 12 that there was abuse by that one bitch from the men letters that tortured Sam. I wish we could've gotten scenes of that, but I guess wanted a "tell, not show" sort of thing. That, and maybe they couldn't get Mr.Morgan to come back at the time for flashbacks.
All YOU people, remember that dean had a chance to get out of the hunter's life when he was like 16 or so, but he gave it up for sammy , so when sam chose to leave him over & over again , dean couldn't feel anything but betrayal .. Love them both , but dean breaks my heart
👍
Oh yea...
exactly. Sam doesn't know that yet though, and you can tell when he finds out that he is sad that Dean chose to get back. And yes I love them both as well, but Dean breaks my heart.
Yes but do not forget dean still could’ve left when he turned 18 or the very least told his dad to let him and Sam live with Bobby. Also when Sam left he stayed with his dad and in season 1 dean was mad that Sam said after they kill yellow eyes he was going back to college still. Sam shouldn’t be faulted for dean not leaving
@halfbreed1426 cause Dean practically raised Sam....kinda sucks when all ur lil brother's happy memories are away from you, or about leaving you. Can't blame Sam for wanting to get out of the hunting life, and can't blame Dean for feeling betrayed-ish...can ya?
"I lived off of Funions and Dr. Pibb"
Sounds like heaven to me!
@joisey10 I think Sam's heaven is a bit... suspicious. Come on, seriously Jessica wouldn't be there? Even if Dean wasn't there, which I find REALLY odd, she would definitely be. Mmmmmh... did someone tamper with his heaven to piss Dean off?
Basically this. Like, sure, these were some of Sam's happy memories, but not *all* of them, and it's suspicious as hell that there wouldn't have been a 'Jessica' moment for him the way there was a 'Mom' moment for Dean.
The fact that the angels are planning to let the boys remember this trip (when they've never remembered any of the other times they've died and have been brought back) lends credence to the 'angel tampering' theory - driving a wedge between Sam and Dean is essential to the angels' plans at this time, and a , 'quick, pick all the happy memories without Dean in them!' plan seems likely.
On the other hand, Sam and Dean are very different people who have very different views of their own (shared) lives. So, even if there is some manipulation here, there's also likely some truth in it.
Two things.
One, at this point in time 'Heaven" is a series of closed doors. That means that Jessica would never actually appear in Sam's memories - just a shade of her. This is key.
Second, you have to know that Sam is aware of Heaven and its rules.
Most people who die are oblivious to Heaven's rules. It's why when we see Bobby he's sitting alone reading a book, listening to the radio. If you knew the person you loved was locked away in their own heaven, would you abuse their memory in Heaven knowing what it is?
This is why Bobby isn't spending time with his family. They're somewhere else - and if he were to "bust out" and tell them this, they'd be cursed. Right now they're safely away, enjoying their memories of him completely believing it's really him.
This sort've ruins it for anyone whose had a peek behind the curtain. They can't remain oblivious to it - they'd know they're talking to a glorified sock puppet. Meanwhile Sam feels guilty for having brought Jessica into "the life". Her death is on him, had she never met him she'd be alive. This taints any and all of Sam's memories with her. The moment he'd see "Jessica" he'd be plagued with guilt.
You put all this together and Sam's complicated feelings don't "work". He selects a few paltry moments of freedom instead. Dean should be looking at Sam right now and not giving him shade - but feeling sorry for Sam, whose "dreams" are so paltry, so small, so modest compared to the life he lived. Did Sam ever stop and actually "live"?
Are these brief moments of hope the best he has?
It's dark, but that's how Heaven worked until the end of the series.
While I do feel bad for Dean, there's always been a part of me that thinks 'when Dean remembers things it tends to be through rose colored glasses.' Like, not that I blame him, he was in a tough spot having to look after Sam AND help John from the age of 4 onwards, BUT I can also understand that things would've looked different to Sam than they did to Dean.
e.g. Dean used to leave Sam at that Clown place that terrified him, Dean seemed to remember that differently to Sam.
other e.g. Dean 'what did you need an imaginary friend for?'
Sam 'I was kind of a lonely kid, Dean.'
'You weren't lonely! You had me!'
(Flashback to Sam alone in a motel room while Dean and John are on a hunt).
Sam'd never had a normal childhood- I'm GLAD he got out and went to Stanford. I don't like the idea that he SHOULD have stayed with Dean or that he 'betrayed Dean' by running away. I don't even want to imagine what kind of psychological warfare was going on in his mind, growing up like he did. If Dean wanted to stay, fine, but I'm glad Sam got out.
What Dean's not saying is "Your happiest memory is of leaving me."
It's just incredible how much Dean really loves his family. To yeh point that his heaven is just being with them. Because he was never allowed such a simple thing.
And this doesn't mean that Sam didn't live his family, but because of being born different he always wanted to get away from them and hide himself. This is how 2 brothers who were raised the same can feel so different
Well excuse Sam for trying to be his own person, to live a normal life, to go to college, to be free
I notice that this entire time, they're running in a straight line. I think it's safe to say that Henry Spencer was a better teacher than John Winchester.
"A straight line is the shortest distance between two people. Zig-zag, zig-zag!"
Omg!!!! 😂😂😂 i remember that episode of Psych !!!
It’s the same dog as the one from smallville... nice..
@halfbreed1426 because Sam's family also included Dean. And Dean went through all the same things Sam did (basically). It prolly hurts Dean to know that the worst days of his life were the best of Sam's
0:32 that "Bones" was way too cute
Dean fangirls are flawed in one specific way. They'll defend Dean and hate on Sam any chance they get. All they think when they watch this scene is "oh poor Dean, Sam is so ungrateful, he doesn't deserve Dean". What about Sam? Sam had a shitty childhood too. He wasn't ever runnin from Dean, he was running from John. Sam just wanted a safe, normal life. If it wasn't a hot guy like Jensen (Dean), fangirls would probably have a totally different opinion. Sucks when fangirls ruin shows by picking sides and defending characters simply because they have the hots for said character. great way to trivialize such a beatiful and complex show.
Exactly how I feel. At least Dean had memories of life with Mary before Azazel killed her. For most of Sam's childhood, it was driving around with John, hunting, camping out, and killing monsters AND THAT WAS IT. John didn't take them to ball games, or the park, or do anything to make them happy; he just kept them safe. At least John realized it later on before he died.
Not really. I get Sams perspective too but you have to understand that Dean had to bear all of the responsibilities that came with looking after Sam. That also means suffering the repercussions of when he failed to look after Sam. I think that’s what Sam didn’t realise until this scene. He was being selfish and only thinking about himself and his own happiness and not thinking about what his actions would mean for Dean.
The sad part is that even if both Sam & Dean ran away from that life, they never would have succeeded because Chuck and Metatron forced their role to be a "Michael vs Lucifer global scale" script. Fortunately they somehow destroyed that script but Chuck just kept on writing and they just kept being more important to the story.....(sigh)
@@miket2913 He was like 12
Isaiah Ross and that matters because??
I got sad when Sam told him to stay
I don't think John abused Dean in the sense that every one is seeming to think. He probably yelled at him and possibly ignored Dean as punishment. John was a negligent father but he wasn't horrible human being. He would never hit his kids. If he did Dean would've taken Sam and run away. If he had been a terrible man then Dean wouldn't emulate his dad. Plus Sam was a kid who tried to make his own choices about his own life, that isn't selfish, that's normal. Every one does that. Dean made his own choices. Neither was trying to hurt the other. You can't say that Sam should blindly follow his brother just because Dean took care of him. Dean is a wonderful person, his one flaw is that he loves and needs Sam to be by his side all the time. Dean doesn't allow himself the space to be someone without Sam. But if the brothers relationship was normal we wouldn't have the show. And if Dean loves his brother to an unhealthy extent so should the rest of us.
I dont know I mean if you look at how dean acts when he gets mad he usually goes for the fighting he even hit sam at that age he should know that's not what to do when your mad so he probably grew up thinking that's what you have to do when your mad and most likely learned that from john 😔
What memory is this ?
No idea .
Sam is totally lying
I understand Dean's upset for Sam ditching them but he doesn't fully understand Sam's intentions and why he 'ditched' them. I mean, it was so obvious that Sam and John fought and screamed in each other's faces, I sure hid under the fucking covers when they did the first time seeing a clip on here, I can't imagine what might have happened afterwards. Family, yes the old natural thing I understand on certain levels, but no, Dean that is far less on an excuse when Sam wanted to leave and get away from daddy. But I have seen some features where Dean hadn't been treating Sam as an adult, probably seeing him as his little Sammy, which he did. Now that's fine and dandy but Sam did not like that either. So not so much as 'ditching' no matter how he sees it.
Sam got away from his father for the life he did not want for himself.
And likely, he got away from Dean because Dean wouldn't let Sam grow up and be an adult for once. But Dean wasn't mentioned so much for Sam to leave him. But certain situations have unfolded and Sam and Dean have pulled that bond together again.
It still hurts to see Dean like this ;A;;;;
Florence Mauricio To be honest, I think Dean has a good point.
Dean sees Sam as "Sammy" precisely because he was more of a father to Sam than just a big brother. Numerous times in the series it has been shown.
Dean took care of Sam; Dean gave Sam Christmas; Dean fed Sam; Dean protected him from monsters, demons, angels and more.
Throughout the time before the series, Dean was the mediator between Sam and their father. He wasn't given a choice but to see Sam almost like a son. In many ways, HE raised Sam. So he sees Sam's desire to run away like a father would. Running away from John is one thing. Dean, however, always tried to find a way to protect Sam and still give him something even remotely akin to a normal life....well, at least as normal as life could be when you have monsters on your tail.
Dean damn near traded any shot he ever had at a normal life to try and make Sam's better. For that reason, it is very understandable that he would be upset that Sam's greatest memories were leaving the family. John, sure -- but him? When he fought tooth and nail to try and take care of Sam, emotionally?
When Dean gave him Christmas, and took care of him when he was sick?
After he took Sam out to shoot off fireworks to try and give him some semblance of normalcy?
Dean had every right to be hurt. Unlike anyone else, Dean never tried to force the life on Sam. He just didn't understand why Sam felt like he had to run away.
He wasn't just running away from John, after all.
When you put everything into perspective, it just makes the Season 5 ending so much more poignant and definitive.
As long as I live, THAT is the true ending to Supernatural.
DigitalOberon Truely nice, very good point.
But you're right, Sam didn't just run away from Dean, I know that.
But Dean WAS following John's orders like a solider and I respect his love for his dad, I really do. Maybe Sam wanted Dean to come with him, and he possibly did want Dean to come with him, but Dean might have been too far gone with John to leave with him and just left, feeling bad for leaving Dean and not telling him why he left him, not because he wanted to.
The brother/father-ing Dean did for Sam is much appreciated and Sam is happy that Dean did everything for him. I love Dean for all he's done, he's amazing for stuff that John would never have come close to earning Sam's love and devotion.
The flaws with some seasons with both brothers that their trait and mess ups is the 'getting pulled back into the job' thing that still gets to me. Idiotic and selfish as they are, they're still brothers, of course. They have crazy reasons that I can't stay mad over. And sometimes, there is no reason, but they stick together til it's resolved.
+Florence Mauricio Dean does treat Sam as 'little Sammy', but let's face it. When it comes to decision - taking or fending for himself, Sam is 'little Sammy'. I'm not saying that Sam is useless or Dean is better. (Probably Sam can kick Dean's butt). And yes, Sam does the research and is all nerd and smart. However, Sam tends to take very poor decisions and gets himself into trouble way more often than Dean. I mean, they're only human and I love them both, but Sam does need a babysitter.
+soah whoami I personally don't believe Sam made bad decisions. And they aren't worse than Dean's because Dean made just as worst decisions as Sam. So they're equally at fault.
And no, Sam does not need a babysitter, he is capable of taking care of himself and being coddled all the time is not going to make him a better person or be on his own, too bad his and Dean's life wasn't all fun and rainbows.
He makes it clear that being watched 24/7 with a hunter of a father and a too-loyal-and-not-so-supportive brother was getting too much for him and so he fought for his independence until he got it. And that is not bad. Everybody has a breaking point and I can understand Sam's feelings to certain extent. I'd be done with my family too and want to get the hell out to leave and live a life and go to school and want to be on my own after I've been constantly watched without getting a chance to have a regular day in my life and be given an order like some soldier at war.
And whether it may not be the case, Sam is stronger than he looks. It's his guilt that's holding him back.
I really do not like picking up fights or giving the wrong impressions, that's the reason why I'm replying. When i brought up the Sam's wrong decision making, I am not saying that Dean is always right. Especially when it comes to the greater good and large sized evil plots, both boys sometimes screw it up - which is normal when keeping in mind that they are two human beings trying to help in a situation that is just too big and impossible for them. However, Sam is usually trusty and idealistic (I am talking about regular episode plots here). He has the tendency to believe that dreams come true - which is really sweet of him, but gets him into trouble. He thinks he can be normal and have bonds, but in reality he should know that their lives are being played by greater powers and the best thing he can do is run for his life or fight. We saw that since season 1, when Sam was keeping in touch with his college friends and in the end of the episode cut them off anyway (just like Dean told him he would have to). There are things that won't leave Sam (or Dean, for the matter) alone. Sam fails to see that. Also he is trusting and forgiving and tries to give second chances. That makes him a great guy. But half the time it turns out that he is giving away his trust unwisely (and no, I am not judging him for the Ruby thing). On the other hand I do agree that wanting to get away from John and the hunter's life is not a selfish thing. Heck, even Dean wanted to give up that kind of life too (Bad boys episode). But had Sam thought it through, he would see that he was never gonna escape that life. When supernatural creatures are after you, you can't be a normal college boy. So he'd better get used to it and try to survive, or he or his family would get hurt in the process of protecting him. Anyway, this is just my thought on the situation. Maybe being an older sibling to a sister that doesn't think things through is blinding my reasoning ;) But kind of like Dean, I am always warning her, then seeing her screw up, cleaning her mess and biting my tongue so that I don't say 'I told you so'. And once again - Sam is not stupid or irresponsible and Dean is definitely not perfect. But Dean is somewhat more practical and realistic. Sam can be very cunning once he recognizes friend from foes and becomes aware of the situation, but until then, chances are he gets easily fooled around. That's the curse of being a goody - goody kid :D
PS: love your picture - reminds me of my pikachu plush toy, only this one is cuter
puause it at 0:58 , one of sam's best puppy faces!! its adorable!!!
"Guys come on, you can run but you cannot...Run!" HAHAHA! I like that part.
1:26 I feel bad for Sam here. He wanted to enjoy the memory of Bones for a second
I love the dog bones he's so cute *-*
thats one cute fucking dog
I just pictured me and my brother doing that XD. The fact that we're such good friends makes the SPN sibling feels a thousand times stronger.
“Man I didn’t get the crusts cut off my PB&J” is such an underrated line because it truly explains a lot about Sam also people forget John would visit Sam in college to make sure he was safe
i truly honestly will never understand why some people insist on acting like john was not an abusive piece of shit. him loving his sons does not equal out the fact that he was abusive. and john having his own trauma to work through - so what? like that excuses anything?
He was not abusive he was tough that is different. A lot of people kind of forget that John wasn’t raised as a hunter and in his early 30s saw a demon KILL HIS WIFE. That plus ptsd from being a soldier affected a lot of his decisions but he never actually hurt his sons. If sam and dean hated their dad so much would they have even looked for him at the beginning of the show? Especially Sam he could’ve easily told dean fuck off dad beat us no he said dad raised them tough but he still helped look for the old fuck.
OK but Zachariah was such a good villain! I loved the chase in this season 🤣
Sam and Dean are actually running from their fan girls.
I love the music when they're running from Zach
@lagolindari well if you look at it. it seems as if sam's heaven is goin in order from when things happend. dean's on the other hand seems more sporadic. dean's memories are jumping from one age to another in no real order. sam's seem to be going from when he was younger to when he was older.
so if they had stayed in heaven a bit longer then yeah, i'm sure jess would have shown up soner or later
I seriously love this show though! Im so excited for season 9 to start! I cannot wait!!
bay0809 season 14 going to start XD
Guys...come on, you can run but you cant...run
I'm so sick of people saying Sam is selfish. These clearly aren't his happiest memories it is so blatantly obvious that Zachariah manipulated in order to break the bond between the brothers. So that Dean would say yes and it almost worked. I mean really you don't think Jess would have been in his heaven? Come on guys they are each other's everything. Sam is not selfish from wanting to get away from their father. Dean could have left as well. His father is the one that said not to ever come back and he never tried to reach out to Sam. Every single Winchester has made so many mistakes so can we stop blaming Sam!
Omc that dog looks like the one from Smallville
zachiarah: wow running from angels on foot in heaven with that kind of out of the box thinking i'm surprised you boys haven't stopped the apocalypse already. zack: guys come on you can run but you can't run.
Kinda sad how Sam has to leave Bonesy 😢
"Wow, this is one of the worst nights of my life" this specific line really shows the acting skills from Jensen. From season 1 to the very last episode we see this unbelievable growth in acting skills from all of the main characters but not more then from Jensen and Padalecki. You notice an odd pairing in the first couple of seasons, possibly some conflict in egos but as the show progressed its very hard to not think of these two as Real people and even more so as Real Brothers.
There will never be another show in the future that goes as long and as popular as Supernatural.
I forgot this epic Episode 💖
Season 1 - 5 is a Masterpiece of Shows, of course with the only relevant Ending with the Original eric Kripke God.
*SPOTLIGHT*
Dean: It's the popo!! RUN SAMMY RUN!
Mary their mother wanted the same thing as Sam did.
I think perspective on Dean and Sam change as the person who watches gets older, probably how Dean and Sam reviewed their memories of each other later, and understood each other more.
At that moment, Dean’s reaction was immediately painful. He wasn’t thinking about their entire childhood and future, just, that, you left me. You didnt care about me. Me, who gave you everything I had, who gave you more than I could possibly bear, in your last place of happiness, you choose leaving me.
Maybe Sam's memory doesnt have to be the night he left, because of course he has a right to do whatever he wants, maybe it could be later, when he's doing well at school and Dean is busy in his own life too. At that moment though, being torn away from his brother, the only constant in his life, it was very harsh for Dean to see.
Also Sam had made choices in the last season, choosing others over Dean and perhaps that betrayal hadn't completely heal yet.
As for running away and not telling Dean. Sam is still a child, and their lives are not stable in the least. Dean can wonder about so many awful things that might happen. This is one of the strangest things in the series. Dean might not have been the best brother, because Sam does it to Dean, not when john is around. Also Sam doesn't seem to know that Dean could be yelled at or otherwise. Like he lives with them, doesn't seem to have many friends, all he knows is them, and yet that Dean will face consequences for his actions never occurred to him for years.
So in that way, Sam was protected.
I dont know, but their relationship with their father is different. Sam isnt afraid , he argues and says whatever he wants. Dean doesn't. And maybe Dean is so scared to lose another person, he'd rather just be quiet. Because to him there is worse pain than his life and that was his loss.
Also the way they revert to anger, either getting punched and just accepting it, is not normal. Even if theyre hunters, its wrong. Bobby doesnt go around punching people. They accept this behaviour without ever even thinking it should be different and it results in the end of the series.
Anyway anyways.
@Yellowbulma as I thought. Not even a puppy as better puppy dog eyes than dear sweet Sammy:D
This is why I enjoy the fact that Zachariah gets three separate deaths on this show so much. He's so evil!!!
John may not have physically abused Sam and Dean but he emotionally abused them and in some ways that is worse. Dean was a child and suddenly he has to protect the family because John dragged them around the country to find the demon that killed Mary because he wanted revenge. I know grief can twist a mind but when you have kids you can't do that. No child should ever have to be the parent to their sibling, live from motel to motel, or have to steal food. John never manned up and became the dad they needed and deserved. Bobby was a much better parent to Sam and Dean, John should have left them with him while he went off on his revenge quest. I am glad Cas made Dean see he wasn't daddy's blunt instrument, he wasn't a solider, he could be happy.
I see a lot of people debating on John being a good father or not. He is not! John may not have been physically abusive but he was emotionally and mentally. One of the memories that really come to mind is a flashback. When Dean was younger and Bobby was supposed to being teaching him how to shoot a gun but instead was playing ball with. The fact that John good mad about this says something. I don’t think he would ever lay a hand on them because I think his intentions were good. But sometimes parents have good intentions that cause harm to their children. I get he wanted to keep his sons safe but there were ways to do that without stripping away their childhood.
You know, they mentioned that fight between sam and john quite a bit in the earlier seasons. They even brought it up in season 14. I'm surprised we never saw it
It was a lot like god casting out Lucifer it was a huge moment for them
His dog 😊
It's sad that Dean isn't in any of Sam's happy memories in heaven.😔😐😐
like there in heaven, i'm not sure Zachariah would actually bring a vessel up to heaven, maybe he shapeshift
I don't understand why they changed heaven.. Now heaven looks like a gaint corporate office
so sam is just not aloud to be happy or smth? he's not aloud to have happy memories that don't involve his family? this shit is so upsetting :( like dean has to realize that their family was a toxic environment for sam and that him leaving is not a slight on dean, it really has everything to do with john and the stifling aspects of their upbringing that constantly made sam feel like he wasn't good enough, like he was baggage and a disappointment , i get why dean has a hard time realizing that, i really do, considering how they are different people who respond different to their childhood abuse... i just don't think sam should be guilt tripped for leaving and finding joy in the few moments of true independence he's had, the narrative often makes him seem like the bad guy for that and i hate it
The problem is the fact that Sam being the emotionally involved and smart person that he is, not realizing the affect that his actions had on Dean, and not taking the time to explain to Dean that he wasn’t leaving because of him. Even after they meet back up again he never clarifies that and that’s the problem. And Dean needs that clarification he needs to be verbally spoken to about that it’s just part of his character.
it’s not about whether or not Sam chose his own happiness, it’s about the fact that Sam didn’t think about other people. And I’m not saying that Sam didn’t deserve to be happy I’m saying the way he went about it, and not recognizing the effect his choices had is really infuriating. And truth be told selfish. He could’ve still had the life. He could’ve not had those miscommunications with Dean had he have of just clarified that he wasn’t leaving because of him.
@MsDoctorWhoFan1 well who wouldn't wanna get away from the strangeness of being a 9th grader hunting down a werewolf for a "family holiday"? but still, dean did it all too. they both lived through the same crap-tastic life, they just dealt with it differently. but really? EVERY happy memory? every happy memory of sams is with OUT his family. it's gotta suck for dean to have to live through it when he is so intent on being with, and being part of his family
I need to know what happened to bones
running from angels..on foot..I laughed my ass off😁😁
I hate Dean's attitude towards Sam here. I get where he's coming from but that doesn't make it alright. How can Dean fail to understand that Sam's happiest memories are running away from him because he was never able to make Sam happy.
how dare you?Dean had a chance to live his normal life while he was 16!he gave it up for Sam!what the hell Sam did?leave the second John kicked him out without even saying goodbye to his brother!and never thought for a second that maybe he's sad or hurt or anything which turned out to be worst!and that shit was his idea of heaven!never gave a damn about how much sacrifice his brother has made and only cared about his own issues with John and never considered maybe Dean also had problems with him!only his own happiness and feelings mattered and doesn't matter if it's made on his brother's broken things!Dean's reaction is totally justifiable!Sam literally just wanted everything for himself while Dean can rot in what ever misery he is in!so you shut your mouth
@@altinaykor364 For the record, Sam had a chance to get away from his family at the age of 15 too, but he didn't, for Dean. And we don't know how that fight between Sam and John went down, we didn't see it on screen. How can you just assume Sam didn't care about how much his leaving hurt Dean or that he didn't say goodbye? And while we're at that, Sam's leaving probably hurt Sam more than either Dean or John, he was absolutely alone and away from the one person he loved the most, his brother. But he had one thing he'd never had before, freedom. Trust me when I say this, that's enough of a reason to be really happy even in the crappiest times for a person who's never been free. That's why it's Sam's idea of heaven. And what is this bullshit about hating him for leaving when John kicked him out? You do realise he was KICKED OUT right? He didn't exactly have the option to stick around, what do you expect him to do, beg John to let him stay? And for what, to be abused by John more, or to never be supported by Dean in any fight? Sam realises the sacrifices Dean has made for him more than anyone else, that's the reason he stuck around for so long in the first place even when he had the chance to leave earlier. But that fight with John was the tipping point and Sam couldn't sacrifice his freedom for the family anymore, a sacrifice Dean forever failed to recognize, not when Dean always always took John's side in a fight and failed to understand Sam's perspective. Sam didn't want that freedom and happiness just for himself, he wanted it for Dean too, that's why he tried so hard to convince Dean to go live with Lisa so many times. But Dean always chose John and his selfish bullheaded lust for revenge in the name of loyalty over happiness for himself or his brother. Sam knew that was a dead end street and not worth traveling, that's why he left. Dean realized that it was a dead end street too when he was talking to Michael, it was just too late by then. Dean even admitted that he was wrong to take John's side every time in order to keep the peace, something he apologized for, and Sam is the one who reassured him again that he really appreciated that Dean was the only one who was there for him. So you can bark all you want, you are wrong. Even Dean thinks so.
@@shrutimahant you're imagination is great but still untrue!Sam didn't gave up on his freedom in age of 15 especially not for Dean!he left the second he got chance!and who the hell defended John?John kicked him out,he didn't give a DN about what his brother is feeling and didn't even said goodbye, didn't even care maybe his dad also start a fight with his brother and just left!and like I said consider that as his heaven like only his happiness mattered and Dean could be sacrificed all he wants!and didn't give a damn about maybe his brother is dead or alive for two years!he is selfish and you're imagination about Dean apologizing is also laughable!he apologized for giving up and accept Michael not for this!he had every right to be angry and react this way!and for your information during John and Sam's fight he took no one's side and told both of them to shut up!and he kept more secrets from John which Sam can even imagine!while for Sam he was not even worthy to say goodbye or consider him as a happy memory!
@@altinaykor364 Wow, so apparently Sam having the choice of leaving his family at age 15 to go with Amy is imaginary, something that's canon because we saw it on screen, but Sam never saying goodbye or not caring for Dean is not imaginary even though we never saw that on screen and there is no evidence to prove it in the canon?! Sam isn't selfish, he has some self respect. Since you are too blind to realize that and too biased to not only ignore Sam's perspective but also throw canonical facts out the window in favour of cooking up your own narrative to fit your biases, there's no point in arguing your skewed perception and invalid notions, nor is it worth wasting my time and energy on someone like you. So I'll go live my life while you cling to your biases and unwise hatred of an amazing selfless character out of sheer spite and ignorance, not to mention stubbornness. Go find someone else to bark at, someone who doesn't care about logic or facts and actually gives a damn about listening to your bull crap! I've got better things to do.
@@shrutimahant leaving with Amy?that really you call giving up?hah!she was a Kitsune!a hunter and a creature who feeds on brain can get along?he wasn't even that interested in leaving with her!while Dean somehow found a heaven!and it wasn't official as well, while Dean's choice was completely official in age of 16,he even wanted to talk to John about it,but gave up only by seeing Sam!and you think just because it wasn't on screen isn't real?Dean told the way he spent that night!and say it's imagination,did Sam give a damn about his family being alive or not in Stanford?No!he even got angry at Dean for showing up!and never asked himself maybe something which makes my happiness is built on someone else's broken life!the fact that maybe one of those someones is his brother makes it even worse! that's not self respect, that's called wanting everything only for himself and doesn't matter maybe it hurts someone else,or his brother!and all your kind like to lecture and write a Tomar and in the end say I don't care😂😂😂😂
Bring back Zachariah man...
@Joerca44 yeah, becasue in the epsiode he says "you only see this because you're limitted."
they've seen Zachariah before (in his vessel) that's how they see him.
This video makes my dog freak out for some reason. Idk why lol
That dog is co cute!! =3
Zachariah's obsession with Dean was one of the greatest plot developments from this arc
How the fuck do you constantly get away from a creature that has omnipotence?
I miss the old Supernatural..everything before the 1st apocalypse was good
So they have another apocalypse? Oh shit I just started season 6 I love this shiznit
@@riconola9144 yeah at least three more apocalypse's on the show.
CUTE LITTLE BABY
I wonder if he could have brought the dog ☹️
When Sam ran off first time, it was unintentionally selfish. He was a kid who was always controlled by Dean or his father and kept in the dark. He didn't think what would happen to Dean as Dean often didn't think about Sam when kept secrets from him, dropped at the clown park of amusement and generally been rude. But it was still wrong to run off like that.
Tho situation with stanford is different. Sam wasn't really a kid anymore. He could and should choose what he wanted to make of his life. He chose to go away from hunting to college. Dean and John had to let him go and support. It's what real family does. But of course they turned Sam into selfish traitor for choosing free will. If Dean didn't want to be a hunter, he should have gone with Sam.
The sad part of all these is Dean denying Sam happy memories. Now they are filled with guilt and selfhate.
@joisey10 i would want to get away from it too. Like sam did.
I mean that is some scary stuff (if it was real) who wouldn't want a normal life eventually.
but I like that he's still with Dean.
I refuse to believe that only those memories were Sam’s ideas of heaven. He’s developed into a smarter and more experienced person, and no matter what, Dean is his rock. There’s no way his end heaven or whatever would be without Dean
ehm
it was confirmed that Zachariah tapped into their memories and tried to get them against each other
@@ravadawn When it was confirmed? Please, I need to know
@@ravadawn when that happened?
Yes, please remind us I don't remember when that happened
Jared said it once
@CassFan4Ever Yes he did. He was also the boss in Anger Management
Hate Mary and John.
Their crappy parenting affected Sam and deans relationship.
if tht was me running and hiding with my sister she would be like 'what do we do, what do we do' and i would be like 'run, run, run!'. Omg it would be so cool and funny if cas was in heaven, zapped right in front of the boys and zachariah and said bk off or something and stared fighting him and protecting them from him
Dean should’ve gone with Sam. Best thing to get out of a toxic relationship
if sam's and dean's soul was in heaven why they weren't able to see zachariah's true angel form?
someone knows the ost name starting at 3:21? when they running away from zack?
My dogs like bones a junk food eating cute MIT :)
What happens to the dog?
Funyuns and Mr Pibb?
I swear if Dean doesn't get a happy ending I'm going to riot
Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh ............. sorry to break it to you pal but Dean's life was prominently cut short at the age of 40 (I think that's the age). soooooo yeahhhhh......
@@annexsis5181 I knoooooowwww
worst ending ever, I'm just gonna ignore the last episode
@@tarasa3335 yeah :( I was sad the acting was really good though and jered wig made me laugh
@@annexsis5181 Jared had a wig??? How did I not see that :D
@@tarasa3335 yeah when he was an old man going to see the impala lol it was so bad it made me laugh my ass off while crying cuz I was still sad cuz dean died
SAM HOME