nope. The chief rabbi of rome defended the pope and said the pope and the church did more to save jewish lives than anyone else. Look up what The chief Rabbi of rome said HIMSELF instead of repeating second hand information from biased sources
+Cynthia Rose Horton Hi I agree at all with this vide. It's very easy to proof that Pius XII was anti semite, anti Jewish and anti Israel. After the Second World War was over and Hitler defeated, Pius XII, nevertheless, rejected to recognizer Israel State (Joan Paul II dit it, why Pius XII not???) By other hand, Pius XII made the decision changing his suport to the Nazis because he was afraid of the Germany failures next to 1945. Best regards
+Conrad Penyalva Abosolute Rubbish. What I stated in my initial comment is historical fact, and easily verified. Look up what the chief Rabbi of Rome said HIMSELF instead of relying on other sources that "quote" him. Then check out Michael Savage, (himself a Hew) He ALSO defends Pope Pius.
The Jewish people call Pius XII a Rightius man. The Chief Rabbi of Rome wrote a book called "Before The Dawn" Praising the Pope and after the war he was so impressed by the catholic church that he converted to the church. At his baptism he took the name of Eugenio to show his respect for Pius XII using the Popes own name at Baptism
I'm proud that the Philippines accepted Jewish refugees during their persecution. Let us pray for the protection of the Philippines & Poland...in Jesus name, amen.
Rejected by Western countries and even USA, 10,000 visas were to be given by the Philippine government but only 1,200 Jews were able to escape Nazi Germany and reached the Philippines.
Brother Georgio - Shanghai, China saves thousands upon thousands of Jews during this plight on humanity. Pious did nothing to save the Jews, until the later part of the war. This is the main reason he will never be canonized. Just the truth!
Germany's ally the Japanese encouraged Jewish immigration, they wanted to foster a merchant class in China after they "holocausted" the Chinese. A little ironic as the Chinese are considered the Jews of Asia. Nazi Party member John Heinrich Detlef Rabe saved Chinese from Japanese atrocities in Nanking. Poland on the other hand, not so much, look into the pogroms against returning Jews AFTER THE WAR
So did the Japanese. They wanted to create a merchant class in China...after they wiped out the Chinese. One of their Ambassador's Chiune Sugihara in Lithuania was issuing so many visas it got a little embarrassing for them. Then there was the Nazi diplomat during the Shanghai Massacre who was saving Chinese from the Japanese. Moral of the story, "don't trust leaders, watch parking meters"
Look at the jews the Pope did save, most of them converted to catholicism do to the Pope helping them, we tend to forget rabbi zolli who converted to catholicism after the war. The Pope could only do so much without giving away the people he was saving including his own people.
He hid Jews in his own home. And during his papacy, thousands of priests and bishops across Europe helped to hide and protect Jewish people from Hitler's regime. Even more so, the papacy itself, under Pius's command, was in league with the Germany resistance movement; the Germans that attempted to kill Hitler. Anyone who says that Pius did "nothing to help the Jews" can go to hell.
I'm glad to hear you concede that the pope, who is supposedly the Vicar of Christ on Earth and has direct contact with God, is basically as powerless as anybody else. And it takes no power whatsoever to simply declare that the Nazi regime was evil, which he was too cowardly to do.
''The Pope could only do so much without giving away the people he was saving including his own people.'' As the supposed Vicar of Christ and leader of the supposed Mother church, it was his responsibility to take a very vocal, very public, very firm, very official stance on the horrors of the Holocaust. He failed to do so until 1942, after Hitler made the blunder of fighting on two fronts and doomed his Reich. It was only then, that Pachelli made his stand known. He never excommunicated any of the Catholic Nazi leaders. Either Pacelli wanted Hitler to win or he was a coward and a man with no moral compass.
Why did the state of Israel take up so much of this debate? It had nothing to do with the topic. Israel was founded in 1948, years after the war. Complete red herring.
Ok it seems like there is a lot of information coming from both sides that all contradict each other (even though not directly). But the most powerful argument I think was the argument of those who gave Pope Pius XII praise after it was all said and done. I mean who would know better than the victims themselves, right? On top of this the supporting side (for the motion) admitted that "perhaps he felt he was saving peoples lives..." All in all it seems those who want to discredit the Pope are saying that they wanted a Pope that would "stand up and say what you believe..." and then having thousands of more people died from such lack of prudence. As that which happened with Archbishop Johhannes de Jong, who if you recall, spook out against the Nazis and thus caused the Germans to round up the Jews and sent them to there deaths.
Indeed. "On July 26, 1942 Dutch bishops, including Archbishop Johannes de Jong, issued a decree that openly condemned Nazi deportations of Dutch workers and Jews. The Nazis retaliated by seizing 245 Catholics of Jewish descent, including Edith Stein.[2] The Vatican used the Netherlands' experience to explain its silence during the years of the Holocaust.[3] After the German retaliation, Sister Pasqualina Lehnert, Pius XII's housekeeper and confidante, said the Pope was convinced that while the Bishop’s protest cost more than two hundred lives, a protest by him would mean at least two hundred thousand innocent lives that he was not ready to sacrifice. While politicians, generals, and dictators might gamble with the lives of people, a Pope could not."
One cannot deny that Archbishop Johannes de Jong's condemnation lead to the deportation of 245 catholics of Jewish descent. However, it must be noted that at the time of this condemnation, the Nazis had already begun a large action against Dutch Jews (who were identified based on 'race' rather than religion per Nazi ideology). It is likely that these 245 catholics of Jewish descent would be among the victims of this series of deportations or the many more to come. One cannot disagree with the facts of the reprisal by the Nazis, but it is dangerous to presume that de Jong's condemnation somehow kickstarted the holocaust in the Netherlands or measures against Dutch Jews. Furthermore, one could argue that de Jong's condemnation contributed to the remarkably high number and proportion of Jews saved by the Dutch resistance (16,500 out of a population of ~150,000 in 1941). Contrast this with a country such as Slovakia, which had a catholic priest as its president and saw pervasive complicity by catholic authorities (e.g Ján Vojtaššák), where very few Jews were saved by the resistance or individual sympathetic gentiles, and Jews encountered pogroms upon their return (e.g the Topolcany and Bratislava pogroms). Speaking of pogroms in post-war Europe, Pope Pius XII did nothing to condemn the Kielce pogrom (where 42 Jews were killed) despite being asked to do so during an audience with Rabbi Phillip Bernstein, the advisor to the US on Jewish affairs in Europe. Pope Pius' reasoning for not condemning the pogrom was, quote, 'it is difficult to communicate with the Church in Poland because of its isolation behind the Iron Curtain.'
The first speaker is a total moron. He claims that Pacelli brought two railroad cars of food with him because his delicate stomach could not stand German food. This is a lie. He is an idiot for repeating an obvious lie. Germany was on the brink of starvation. The food was immediately distributed to the people of Germany who were going hungry. Isn't it amazing how low these guys will go to slime a Pope?
I find it interesting that the 2nd speaker states that the claims made by the 1st speaker were bad translations...because of what was said but never built a case to prove it.
He could have presented the alternate translation which would have certainly been similar. Anyway, nobody wanted to be forced to have to endure more of Doino's shrill.
I also noted none of the pro Pacelli people touched the 'why didn't the pope excommunicate catholic Nazi leaders.' There's no way to smoke and mirrors that one.
I find it incredible that the PRO camp won this debate. They presented hardly any evidence. They mainly rehashed old accusations that are no longer generally accepted by the historical community.
They mainly rehashed old accusations that are no longer generally accepted by the historical community. '' Nothing has changed. THERE WAS NO PUBLIC, LOUD, OFFICIAL DENOUNCEMENT OF THE THRID REICH BY THE POPE UNTIL AFTER MOST OF THE HORRORS HAD PEAKED AND GERMANY WAS LOSING THE WAR. That began in 1942 when Hitler decided to fight the war on two fronts, an insane decision. The Vatican knew his cause was lost and it was only then that they finally made a public announcement condemning Hitler.
As always it's ever only the Catholic Church that is held up to account for what it didn't do during WW2, the fact that almost no other world religion had anything to say against the Natzi persecution of the Jews seems to be entirely overlooked. The church of England made no reference to the holocaust, while the British Royal Family had an allegiance to the Natzi party, through Edward V111.There was nothing Pius X11 could have done, that would have made the slightest difference to the plight of the Jews, other than protect them as best he could, behind the walls of the Vatican, and in many other religious houses and seminaries. Speaking out openly against the Natzi regime would have cost even more lives, and effectively brought the closure, of many places of refuge.
Exactly. Some people just expect them to have charged headlong at machineguns. If anyone is going to be blamed, blame the military powers: French for not intervening in 1936 when the Rhineland was remilitarized, or the British in 1938 when they didn't back up Czechoslovakia.
The Church of England of course supported King and Country in the war. Britain was never occupied by the Germans. The Royal Family had no allegiance whatsoever to the Nazis. That is a stupid slander, based on the foolishness of the Duke of Windsor, who, after he abdicated, visited Germany and was greeted by Hitler. The King and his family were completely committed to British victory, and did everything they were asked to do to help the cause. Pius XII was the Vicar of Christ on Earth, the head of the Roman Catholic Church, with its hundreds of millions of members, its own independent country and vast wealth and power. He could have used his position to condemn Hitler and his gang for their horrible crimes and call upon all Catholics to oppose them. He could have excommunicated Hitler and his gang, denying them the sacraments until they stopped their criminal actions. Instead, he kept silent and let his priests do as they thought best.
He hid Jews in his own home. And during his papacy, thousands of priests and bishops across Europe helped to hide and protect Jewish people from Hitler's regime. Even more so, the papacy itself, under Pius's command, was in league with the Germany resistance movement; the Germans that attempted to kill Hitler. Anyone who says that Pius did "nothing to help the Jews" can go to hell.
I am sure the British Royal family did more to help the Jews after they openly supported Hitler before the War. Or maybe Time Magazine did more to help the Jews after naming Hitler Man of the Year in 1933. Or how about Henry Ford who was building trucks for the German Wermarch in Cologne Germany? Do you catch the point?
Over 30 western countries refused to take on Jewish refugees from Nazi Germany in 1938. At the same time cardinal pacelli was trying to get Jews out of Nazi Germany to save them. Funny how no one blames western countries for turning their backs on Jewish refugees.
''Do you catch the point?'' NO. None of those other sources CLAIM TO BE THE VICAR OF CHRIST RUNNING AN INFALLIBLE CHURCH. He had a responsibility to speak up. His position COMPELLED HIM TO. He failed miserably.
Had no political power to 'save' anybody or do so called academics not understand his role in the twentieth century (hint it was different to what it was in the 12th Century). Will we also be asking in fifty years if the Church of Rome could have done more to save the Palestinians? A people marked for erasure from history by the world's powers.
Pius XII duty was to protect Catholics and to protect all humanity by those means. Jews had every financial institution of the day under their control, they had 53 countries declaring war on Germany. They had blank permission to empty Palestine and start a Jewish nation all for themselves. What else did they want???
@@kooringagnd Even Ptolemy made mention of the land of Palestine in his maps before Christ. Palestine is an ancient land, it is Israel that is a recent invention. No country of Israel ever existed until the 20th Century.
Get your facts correct and stop just dishing up the old lies. Why was the Pope thanked by multiple sources after WW2 for all that he did to save Jewish people, and why is he considered "righteous among the nations"? One of the chief rabbis was so impressed by all that the Pope did to save the Jews - it is now known that he actually saved more Jewish lives than all the European countries put together! - that he himself decided to convert to Catholicism
that he himself decided to convert to Catholicim'' Yea, that's what we call a turncoat. Pacelli was either a coward or a closet fascist. All the time, since 1939, when jews were being imprisoned and killed, he kept silent and offered no official, public condemnation of the Third Reich. The turncoat Chief rabbi was a fool as well.
Sir Geoffrey lands a pretty low blow when saying about the Pope’s opposition to Communism being about “protecting the Pacelli estates in Italy “. Pope Pius knew of the martyrdom of Christians in the Soviet Union and feared the expansion of that State into Eastern Europe inflicting suffering on many others
From the embarrassingly shameful misdeeds of Catholic institutions, be it testimonies of sexual assaults by young boys, to forced residential schooling of indigenous children, and other crimes, the obvious lesson is, Satan and his Babylonian loyalists have infiltrated the Catholic Church. But I am confident Mother Mary and all the resurrected saints, St Joseph, St Peter... Will protect God's church. I pray for divine intervention if all else fail.
yeah, with the 1917 russian revolution in people's minds (Animal Farm for example was a parody) people feared communism more than facism our own royal family and arstocracy where apologists to nazism at one point, but certainly not communism
While is true that Pius XII never met with Hitler, Pacelli certainly did. He met with him personally in 1919. Not only that: he bankrolled him and the Nazi Party! Reference "La Popessa."
Why am I not surprised, here we have Two “Protestant” Brits arguing for the idea that the pope did nothing to help save Jews or speak out against the Nazis, nothing new here really, their implicit bias presented here is laughable at best and an absolute deplorable insult at worst. There in fact exists much evidence quite to the contrary of their absurd and ridiculous outdated argument. No real debate here other than Pius XII lived a very tumultuous period in history as we all know, and had to skillfully play his cards just right politically to not place the Vatican and the church in direct harms way from a hostile retaliation by Nazi Germany, by no means an easy task in achieving in and of itself. It’s quite easy for us moderns now to say “he didn’t do enough or did nothing” today with our 21st century world view of things. I’ve come to realization that we may never truly know just how tough and turbulent the mid 20th century actually was other than what information we still have available to us today.
Yep and when the Nazi loot was to be given back to the holocaust survivors, the Vatican ordered the Swiss vaults open. Oops, my mistake, the Vatican was sued for such, in the 9th Circuit Kangaroo court of Merica!
@@Kitiwake Yes, as did the destruction of Yugoslavia, involving the Vatican, USA and Germany. And through a Google search linking the Knights of Malta and CIA, I came across the gem: FOIA Nazi War Criminals Disclosure Act Thus admitting the US government working with Nazis, during the Cold War. If I'm not fooled, what does the intelligence agencies of both Russian and China know?
@@unam9931 That's not what the trail docs revealed. Were you there when the CIA and Mi6, along with Germany, sent arms and funds to the KLA? Right under your know it all nose? Who give a a flying F about your opinions and you being bloody there? I was in South Central LA, when the CIA bombed the crack and saw the devastation 1st hand. Now go back and read the transcripts from Slobodan Milošević. And how why should i give him creditably you ask? Because when he mentioned the Vatican and the USA worked together, with the Nazis{Operation Ratline}after the war, he was telling the truth. And if you want the proof, well here it is: Under the FOIA: Nazis War Criminals Disclosure Act In short, my government admitted to working with the Nazis, after the war! Now how about all those Orthodox Churches being destroyed, I'm making that up too? Who's the bloody idiot now, ya wanker?
He hid Jews in his own home. And during his papacy, thousands of priests and bishops across Europe helped to hide and protect Jewish people from Hitler's regime. Even more so, the papacy itself, under Pius's command, was in league with the Germany resistance movement; the Germans that attempted to kill Hitler. Anyone who says that Pius did "nothing to help the Jews" can go to hell.
The first speaker talks of "Cardinal Pacelli" in1917 in Bavaria, when he was not yet cardinal ! Also, the letter to Hitler expresses the sense of unity with the German People under Hitler's leadership. He ingenuously speaks as if the Nazis would grovel at the Pope's words, when they were publicly barbarous in treating not only Jews, but other ethnicities as well such as Poles and Gypsies with great public cruelty,. The pope could condemn Communist atheists, but many Nazis pretended to be be Christian, some Catholics and other Protestants. The Israeli Jew, Pincus Lapide, studied the Net or secret underground erected by Pius XII saved up to 860,000 Jews from death. The Pros did not present many concrete examples, as opposed to the Cons, but English are generally not friendly to the Catholic Church, and these sessions usually draw non-believers in large numbers, so whatever they may say about that, the anti-pope ending vote is not surprising.
Who cares what his title was in 1917? Was he not the same human being, regardless of his title? You are looking to criticize irrelevant details so you don't have to take on the relevant ones, which DAMN the Catholic Church quite badly.
@@martinocelotl8326absolute nonsense. Pacelli made 40 speeches on German soil denouncing the Nazis. When Pius XI published the strong condemnation of the Nazis Mit Brenneder Sorge in 1937 he actually admitted that pacelli wrote it. The Nazis recognised pacelli as an enemy. That is why they boycotted his coronation. Nazi newspapers portrayed him as a Jew lover. For once they were telling the truth.
@@wonjubhoy ''Pacelli made 40 speeches on German soil denouncing the Nazis. '' You made that up. There is no empirical historical evidence of this. The pro Pacelli crowd would have used them. ''The Nazis recognised pacelli as an enemy.'' No, he was a silent ally until 1942 when Hitler began to lose the war. Then he got public. Why didn't Pacelli excommunicate the Catholic Nazi leaders? Why wasn't there an official Vatican condemnation of the Third Reich until way later? Haven't you seen the pictures of Cardinals and Bishops and priests doing the nazi salute? Germany was full of Catholics. Pacelli could have really stood for something. He failed.
What would have happened if Pacelli hadn't provided Vatican backing to the Nazis in the form of financial and official support beginning in the early 1920s? Unless you believe Vatican aid counts for nothing then you must accept that the Nazis and the Vatican both benefited from their long and involved relationship.
@@22genghis Exactly. What armies did Jesus have? What would have happened if Jesus hadn't "spoken out"? One had the courage of his convictions, whatever cost that might bear, and the other didn't.
@@22genghis But the Pope did speak it out ... "Mit Brennender Sorge" is a perfect example of Pius condemming the Nazis ideology and still to come actions
You don't have to be in the army to be in the resistance or break codes. Willem Arondeus, a member of the Dutch resistance, gave up his life to blow up a records office to prevent the Nazis from finding jews in the Netherlands Alan Turing broke the Naval Enigma code. (Pius XI made a deal with Mussolini to ban all jews from all the universities in Italy, thus lobotomizing much of the mathematical and scientific talent in Italy.). They were gay men, those people you Catholics hate and persecute.
The first speaker insinuates what a secretary of Pacelli said about Jewish bolshevists and ascribes them to the future pope. He speaks of Jews in Poland but ignores that Poles were the primary target of the Nazis and millions of them were killed, but they are not important to the speaker. He ignores the fact that Poland was invaded in 1939 but Auschwitz began killing 1939. The Polish Jews were One of various ethnic groups that were persecuted. He speaks of Pius not protesting the 1,000 Jews rounded up in Rome by the Nazis without Pius protesting, but the speaker ignores the fact that Pius had hidden 5000 Jews in the Vatican itself ! If he that ignorant, or is he twisting facts out of Bigotry? Furthermore, Pius XII had a secret Network or Underground of agents that help in saving Jews, and the Network consisted of bishops, priests, nuns, laymen, and even Vatican diplomats (one of whom was Roncalli, later John XXIII, papal representative in Bulgaria and Turkey). Pincus Lapide, an Israeli Jew, INVESTIGATED the Network and determined that the network had saved about 860,000 Jews. After the war, the World Jewish Congress and the New York Times praised Pius as the Sole Voice of Reason for his constant condemnations of ethnic and racial hatred and even of civilian suffering in the war. At the time, the Nazis were not the Only oppressors of ethnic groups, as the Soviet Union had theirs, the United States ours (black lynched and Hispanics marginalized, ethnic Japanese in concentration camps, Indian children taken from their families; and the British had the oppressive policies of Colonialism as did many other countries such as Japan and France. This is all twaddle to the ignorant and Bigoted. Time to end this sort of rubbish.
He hid Jews in his own home. And during his papacy, thousands of priests and bishops across Europe helped to hide and protect Jewish people from Hitler's regime. Even more so, the papacy itself, under Pius's command, was in league with the Germany resistance movement; the Germans that attempted to kill Hitler. Anyone who says that Pius did "nothing to help the Jews" can go to hell.
My comment merely states the facts. He hid Jews in his own home, and had his priests and bishops across Europe do the same and much more. Also, speaking out publicly against Hitler would not have accomplished anything except the deaths of millions of Catholics. Catholic clergy were already being murdered across Europe by the thousands, while the laity was also being terrorized and butchered. If Pius had spoken out publicly against the Nazis, it would only have caused them to intensify their wrath against the Catholic people's of Europe. By resisting Hitler, though the use of spies and assassins (again, he was in direct league with the German resistance which tried to kill Hitler), he was able to mobilize the thousands of remaining Catholic clergy and many of the laity to hide and protect Jews as best as they could. They saves many, and much of the modern Jewish community owns their lives to Pius.
I don't think the Archbishop of Canterbury was a big player on the world stage in those days...he was hardly a world leader. The CofE was not an Universal church.....he was merely the Primate of All England.
There's an old saying "it's easy to be brave behind castle walls". Pious May not have immediately condemned the holocaust however he was living inside a city controlled (or at least surrounded) by Mussolini, who was Hitlers strongest supporter.
I have to wonder, why did the Chief Rabbi of Rome convert to Catholicism after the Second World War and take the baptismal name of Eugenio (Pius's birth name) if he felt Pius XII did nothing. He hid Jews in convents, monasteries, Castel Gafaldo, and the Vatican itself. If he spoke out the way some would have wanted, that protection would have been gone.
My comment merely states the facts. He hid Jews in his own home, and had his priests and bishops across Europe do the same and much more. Also, speaking out publicly against Hitler would not have accomplished anything except the deaths of millions of Catholics. Catholic clergy were already being murdered across Europe by the thousands, while the laity was also being terrorized and butchered. If Pius had spoken out publicly against the Nazis, it would only have caused them to intensify their wrath against the Catholic people's of Europe. By resisting Hitler, though the use of spies and assassins (again, he was in direct league with the German resistance which tried to kill Hitler), he was able to mobilize the thousands of remaining Catholic clergy and many of the laity to hide and protect Jews as best as they could. They saves many, and much of the modern Jewish community owns their lives to Pius.
Read everything that Pius XII said or wrote publicly publicly and you will find NOTHING specifically condemning the NAZIS for what they were doing to THE JEWS. He avoided those words like the plague,
I think I agree with the pro-Pope side, but their one speaker just is very annoying and interruptive, and that voice turns me to the smoothness of anti-pope side.
He hid Jews in his own home. And during his papacy, thousands of priests and bishops across Europe helped to hide and protect Jewish people from Hitler's regime. Even more so, the papacy itself, under Pius's command, was in league with the Germany resistance movement; the Germans that attempted to kill Hitler. Anyone who says that Pius did "nothing to help the Jews" can go to hell.
Lies. He hid Jews in his own home. And during his papacy, thousands of priests and bishops across Europe helped to hide and protect Jewish people from Hitler's regime. Even more so, the papacy itself, under Pius's command, was in league with the Germany resistance movement; the Germans that attempted to kill Hitler. Anyone who says that Pius did "nothing to help the Jews" can go to hell.
The Vatican recognizes Israel in 1993? Hell, that's all you need to know about this entire debate! AntiSemitism was rife in Europe, America, and the Vatican in that period. But I see an obvious winner in this debate in particular, and in the history of the time in general. But to address the debate, it comes down to one central question: NOT, as the debate posits, did the pope not do enough; NOT, as both sides posit, did the pope take local actions to hide Jews; but this: why did the pope not speak out PUBLICLY against Nazism when it counted - during the war? The entire debate, and the entire controversy surrounding the pope can be boiled down to this question. Yes, the pope took local actions to help Jews, and yes, a lot of Jews were saved IN ITALY from his actions; however, the pope's voice traveled WORLDWIDE. Imagine how many Jews would have been saved in all the other countries that were under the Nazi jack boot had the pope made PUBLIC PROCLAMATIONS?! He refused. He quietly saved lives in Italy. That is to the good, but there is no danger if the enemy does not know your are rebelling, so that is simply moral cowardice when he could have fully used his powers of the spoken word (special note to pope apologists - if you want to know what moral courage looks like against the forces of evil when your survival is at stake, pick up any biography of Churchill - now THERE is the very definition of a man exercising ALL OF HIS POWERS AND BEYOND to save humanity in general and the Jews in particular - never has there been a more philosemitic leader on the public stage, AND THAT MOST CERTAINLY EXCLUDES THE POPE). The pope saved some lives, both sides agree, but think of how many people died in other countries from his moral public cowardice. I'm conservative by nature, but to be intellectually honest, I acknowledge the "for the motion" side of the debate, who clearly put up a stronger defense, and the historical facts which were not nullified in the slightest: why did the pope not acknowledge the existence of Israel (until on his death bed), why did he not follow up LOCAL ACTIONS with GLOBAL DENOUNCEMENTS during the way, and why did he refuse to PUBLICLY acknowledge the moral crimes of the Nazis after the war was over and his sacraments were safe?
To anyone who refutes my comments above, you might want to take a gander at this video on youtube: "The Vatican's Role in the Promulgation of Italy's 1938 Racial Laws (Full Video)" It's very academic and fact-based, and not politically incendiary.
It seems obvious that the reason Pacelli did not speak out against the Nazis is because he was instrumental in fostering them since the early 1920s. The Nazis turned against the Church just prior to the war by making it clear that their intention was not to help the Vatican convert Jews and Orthodox as outlined in the Reichskonkoradt but instead just kill them. This ruined the Church's part of the deal and immediately rendered the the Nazis a political liability for the Church. Sure, Pacelli could have chosen to admit his mistakes but instead he chose to obfuscate his role.
@@willboudreau1187 Well stated. Faith without reason is what underscores mans inhumanity to man, whatever the faith. Here's another one the faithful might want to consider THE CATHOLIC CHIURCH IS A FORCE FOR GOOD IN THE WORLD th-cam.com/video/JZRcYaAYWg4/w-d-xo.html
The overriding assumption in this debate is that Pacelli was some sort of subordinate to Hitler. I feel this is a false assumption and that the facts indicate Pacelli always considered the Holy See supreme to any dictator. His error was to assume that others, especially Catholic politicians, would share his point of view.
Amen . He hid Jews in his own home, and had his priests and bishops across Europe do the same and much more. Also, speaking out publicly against Hitler would not have accomplished anything except the deaths of millions of Catholics. Catholic clergy were already being murdered across Europe by the thousands, while the laity was also being terrorized and butchered. If Pius had spoken out publicly against the Nazis, it would only have caused them to intensify their wrath against the Catholic people's of Europe. By resisting Hitler, though the use of spies and assassins (again, he was in direct league with the German resistance which tried to kill Hitler), he was able to mobilize the thousands of remaining Catholic clergy and many of the laity to hide and protect Jews as best as they could. They saves many, and much of the modern Jewish community owns their lives to Pius.
Really? He did more than Churchill who sent thousands of soldiers, airmen, and sailors to their deaths in fierce battles against the Nazis? Your pope couldn't even muster the balls to give a simple statement. Care to revise your BS position?
Boy - some people are tough to impress. Here's a better question. What man on earth did *more* to help the Jews during Hitler's reign than Pius XII? Names, dates, time and place, please.
bammbamm12 While at the same time trying to maintain peace in Europe and trying to stay neutral (at least officially) in times of conflict. "Hitler's Pope" my ass...
Leonardo's Truth ??? What? What do you mean he should of sent the Swiss Guard to attack Berlin - you realize the Vatican City is Europe's smallest country? And you realize Pope Pius the 12th went beyond the ethnic and racial lines to save and rescue countless Jews from sure destruction at the hands of the Nazis? It was the atheistic-communist Soviet Union that tried to say Pope Pius 12th was pro-Nazi and quote-on-quote "Hitler's Pope". To 1). Justify the persecution of the Uniate Catholic Churches in eastern Europe after the war that were now under Soviet influence and occupation and 2). Cover up their own asses for their own humiliating collaboration with the Nazis during the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact era...
Leonardo's Truth Oh I see. Pardon me then, I apologize. I deal with a lot of critics of the Catholic Church on a daily basis and you won't believe how many absurd and ridiculous arguments I've heard. So it's hard for me to distinguish between who's being serious and who's not being serious and or making a joke. Again, my apologies...
It would be blamed for silly heroic actions that leads to thousands of innocent death. Instead - critics would probably said - Pope had to be much more delicate and actually save lives. It is a vitrue to be a martyr. But doing something that forces others to be martyrs is entirely different.
''But doing something that forces others to be martyrs is entirely different.'' Wrong. Not if it's the truth you are speaking. The Apostles of the early church could have kept silent with the truth and thus avoided many Christians dying in the Colosseum. Pacelli failed as a leader and as a supposed Christian.
Now you know why Western Civilzation is crumbing. We do not value the truth anymore, we elevate complete morons to our universities so they can spread lies
Rabbi David Dalin wrote a book refuting the horsecrap in this video. Pius XII saved thousands of Jews by hiding them in Church properties.. After WWII the Chief Rabbi of Rome became Catholic!
@Ian Lev First things first. He remained silent but Pius instructed churchmen verbally to shelter Jews in churches, monasteries and convents. None of this was on paper. He remained silent but he did what he could secretly to help Jews. This is all documented.
He declaimed antisemitism only as it pertained to Catholics of Jewish extraction. Dissembling and personal insults are the surest sign of a weak position.
"What the Vatican did will be indelibly and eternally engraved in our hearts. Priests and even high prelates did things that will forever be an honor to Catholicism." Israel Zolli - chief rabbi of Rome during WW2.
The Rabbi chose to thank the Pope for having helped as he did rather than curse him for facilitating the rise of Hitler and the Fascists for decades prior, and for then helping many of them escape justice after the war.
@@martinocelotl8326 Nazism was condemed by both Pius XI (Mit brennender Sorge) and Pius XII (Summi Pontificatus). Papacy had nothing to do with the rise of nazism. Nazi regime persecuted Catholics including priests and bishops, kiling many. Public actions against nazism by the Church would just lead to more death and suffering. Catholicism was always a moderate way. On the other hand the Church saved houndred thosands of Jews during the war, hiding them and transporting to free countries. This effort was the greatest. US or UK did virtually nothing. There is no proof that pope knew about ratlines and even if he knew - after the war communism was rightly seen as the biggest threat. They evacuated them from Soviet sphere of influence. Allies were also keen to forgive some Nazis in Western Europe for the same reason.
@@TheGeneralGrievous19 Perhaps you don't know about Eugenio Pacelli's deep involvement in the genesis and development of Nazi Germany. We can start with the diary of his nun confidant, Sister Pascalina, which attests to Pacelli physically giving Hitler a lump of money to get the Party going way early in the game. Later came the Treaty between Nazi Germany and the Vatican -- good stuff. Sure, Hitler later turned on Pacelli, but neither Hitler nor Pacelli got wha they wanted, which was Russia. No Consecration of Russia! Didn't work out for Pacelli -- less for Hitler.
@@martinocelotl8326 Any direct proof for this revelations or just conspiracy theories overheard somewhere? 😒 There is clear historical evidence that His Holiness Venerable Pius PP. XII was strongly anti-Nazi and anti-totalitarian. It is seen in contemporary acounts and e.g. in his encycical 'Summi Pontificatus'. The Church was always commonsensical so the idea that Germany could be a wall against communist barbarism, especially before the war and German atrocities was not unheard of. The same could be said about British and other Western leaders. But there was no sympathy or support, especially after true colors were revealed. The Church was very much supressed under Nazi regime and Pius XII was very concerned about well being and lives of Catholics. The concordat with Hitler was signed to give security to those living under German rule. Without it they would be completly left adrift.
@@TheGeneralGrievous19 It's neither a conspiracy nor theory. It was documented in Sr. Paqualina's diary and cited in the book, "La Popessa" (Murphy, 1983.) Considering the diary was written in praise of Pacelli, and that the book was written in defense of him as well, the source is highly credible: yes, Pacelli did put money directly into Hitler's hand. I think you are correct about the Treaty's purpose to provide security for Catholics living under German rule. The Treaty went further in that it provided security to non-Catholics about to be put under German rule, notably Jews and Orthodox Christians in USSR and eastern Europe, if they agreed to convert to Catholicism. Had the Germans honored that clause the war would have taken a completely different course. Of course, it is well documented that the Ustashi in Croatia, under Nazi rule, did execute many Orthodox Christians for refusing to convert to Catholicism, so it seems likely they were inclined to honor the clauses of the Treaty for the Germans even if the Germans didn't. I suppose they were better Catholics.
As an institution which had propped up the Nazi Party, and with Pacelli himself responsible for that association, Pacelli and the Vatican had a lot of 'splaining to do after the war. I think they decided to obfuscate instead of explain. Remember the Rat Lines. If the Vatican had not helped those Nazis escape they would have been caught by the Allies and the true nature of the relationship between Pacelli and the Nazis would have been revealed. Where there is no contrition there is no forgiveness. You tell me where Pacelli is now.
There is certainly evidence that Catholic officials did help with the Ratlines, however, despite Pacelli's early support for the Hitler and the Nazi Party, by the time the war started and throughout, Pacelli and the Nazis were bitter enemies. Thus, I see no logical reason for Pacelli to have provided Nazis aid in escape. However, if you have any evidence Pacelli did help Nazis escape, please share.
Yes, there's so much deliberate intellectual dishonesty in this debate. For example you will often find attackers of Pius XII saying he was anti-semitic and defenders pointing to various claims he made that were against racism, but what the defenders fail to point out is that the majority of attackers are accusing him of discrimination based on belief in the Jewish religion not race and thus pointing out that he was against racial discrimination is beside the point. So many slights of hand.
True. And he hid Jews in his own home. And during his papacy, thousands of priests and bishops across Europe helped to hide and protect Jewish people from Hitler's regime. Even more so, the papacy itself, under Pius's command, was in league with the Germany resistance movement; the Germans that attempted to kill Hitler. Anyone who says that Pius did "nothing to help the Jews" can go to hell.
@@easyenetwork2023 Most definitely. You don't have to be religious to be Jewish by birth (of a Jewish father, or mother, or both), and you can convert to Judaism without being ethnically Jewish, which some wives of Jews do. However, orthodox Jews don't recognize a person of a Jewish father and gentile mother as a Jew, and neither do they accept converts to Judaism as members of the tribe. Orthodoxy in any religion or political ideology is exclusive, not inclusive.
Would you look at this little weasel of a Vatican defender? Ever hear of Joan of Arc? There are thousands of Buddhist monks and "ordinary" Tibetans who have set themselves on fire to protest China's domination of their land.....but you don't see popes or bishops or cardinals making sacrifices like that. Nothing close to it. They're careerists.
It is a more realistic version of then state of affairs. Meuller who survived the war, had the true facts . He was extremely fortunate Poor Admiral Canaris. Very few people realise his efforts towards the favourable culmination of the war. The spying business was a very risky occupation. I have great regard for Count Von Staffenberg. Again, very few people realise that he was a Catholic with a concience. Being critical is easy. The differcult thing is considering a matter without the true facts. Their is too much "Classified Documentation"; which has yet to be released. Will we see these in our lifetime ? Doubtful..
ur reffering to. His work has been disected and ridiculed. Thirdly The Church did indeed condone a spirtual condemnation of the Jews until 1964. And don't get me started on the screwed up ideas of limbo and Papal infallibility. Also look up Cardinal Law. The story of that man destroys any shreds of the moral legtimacy that ur church claims to have. Btw excuse any typos writting on phone.
Those against the motion had clearly done years of original research and presented their arguments scrupulously without emotive langauge while the pros relied on secondary sources,their grey hair and inappropriate light-hearted remarks to sway the audience. And the audience was swayed. What does that tell us?
The audience was a bunch of idiots to believe the rubbish they expounded. Let the facts speak for themselves. The Vatican played a major role in saving many jewish people and other people as well. What of the intelligence passed to the allies which assisted their war effort.
U should do ur own research ....about Clerical Fascism, Ustache party in Croatia and President Ante Pavelic,president Joseph Tiso of Slovakia,The Central Party in Germany, Rexiste Party IN Belgium, president Leon Rupnik of Slovenia
No it is not a fact. You made it up. If, as you claim, 58 million Germans were living in Poland, which towns were they living in and what was the population?
I don't think it would have been appropriate for the King to comment......after all the Government at the time was 'his Government' and it was their position to speak on such matters.
The Chief Rabbi of Rome, Israel Zolli, and his family, converted to Catholicism in 1945, after the War. In baptism Rabbi Zolli took the Christian name of Eugenio, in honor of Pius XII, Eugenio Pacelli. Eugenio Zolli knew the truth about Eugenio Pacelli.
A very simple anecdotal addition A very devout Polish-American friend of mine was among rhe first liberators of Rome. His unit was given an audience.Years later he confided to me that the reception was glacial.
Also crazy what people do in the name of the godless state such as Pol Pot's Cambodia, Stalin's Russia, Mao's China and yes godless Hitler's Germany. Hitler's god was the old Germanic paginism NOT the classical Jewish/ Catholic one. Nice try though.
Too bad none of the Catholic members of the SS didn't agree with you. And the God referred to on every belt buckle of every Nazi soldier was the pagan God? Nice revisionist history you're putting out there.
@@thanksforbeingausefulidiot9016 The SS had a deep and abiding hatred of the Catholic Church because of nazism. This is undeniable. The record is clear. Any Catholics in the SS were not the practicing kind. They were good nazis. As for Gott. It predates nazism. By the time It gets to Nazi SS it has become a largely symbolic one,
Roman Catholic Church has saved More Jews than anyone on earth. 700,000 but probably as many as 860,000 Jews from certain death at Nazis hands-- Pinchas Lapide 1967 Book Three Popes and the Jews. J.Lichten book A Question of moral judgment
Pectoris 4-Hateful slander!!!! This man did not condemn the Nazis, stayed virtually silent on the holocaust, and refused to speak out on German atrocities. He excommunicated communists world wide and did not do the same for German Catholics who persecuted the Jews. Do some reading on this hateful man before spouting nonsense!
I don't quite understand why American Christians were shocked when they reached the concentration camps in norther Europe. Were the pulpits not decrying daily and or weekly the inhumanity (lack of love) exuded by Russia, Germany and Japan?
He certainly did not fail. Logically, historically and morally he was a courageous, caring and astute man who did all he could to oppose Nazism and save countless peoples on many fronts including the Jews -- 4720+ saved in Rome alone. Edith Stein was mentioned in the video. She was an intellectual and Catholic nun, died in the concentration camp because the Church authorities pushed the Nazi too hard. He was in a no win situation but did remarkably well. My only hope is that more Jewish people in Europe during the Nazi reign speak out and record their experiences before they die so the false re-writing of history will be more clearly shown for what it is .
The leading Rabbi of Rome became a Catholic Christian and took the baptismal name Eugene, in gratitude for All Pope Pius XII had done to help the Jewish people. The Prime Minister of Israel, Golda Meir, attended the funeral of Pope Pius XII, to honor his memory of all he did to aid the Jewish people. The new york times headline in 1941 reads, " Pope Pius XII is a lonely voice speaking out against all the darkness covering Europe today". Thousands and thousands of Jewish people have testified they are alive today due the intercession of Pope Pius XII!
I had a conversation with a priest who had spent most of his career in the Vatican. His demeanor darkened perceptibly when the conversation turned into controversy regarding Pius XII. “How could anyone attack that nice old man? He was a saint” was the vociferous argument. And so it goes, Pius has his office, his image, and his loyal supporters. History, thankfully, turns on facts. “Intellectual controversy” devolves upon preponderance of evidence, not canonization. In formal debate one judges coherence, and awards no points for attacking the opposing presenters. Judge for yourself
"he could have very likely prevented the whole thing" the guy says.... i'm not sure his reasoning for this, he may well have had a meeting with the nazis i imagine, where they made it clear what they wanted and he exchanges the saftey of the church/state for the jews i imagine it's easy to judge, but certain Italian things may not have survived nazism without him.... even if he is a worm, like the French leaders, same story. I don't think you know this stuff unless you yourself experience an occupation, London being bombed is nothing compared to that
He hid Jews in his own home. And during his papacy, thousands of priests and bishops across Europe helped to hide and protect Jewish people from Hitler's regime. Even more so, the papacy itself, under Pius's command, was in league with the Germany resistance movement; the Germans that attempted to kill Hitler. Anyone who says that Pius did "nothing to help the Jews" can go to hell.
My comment merely states the facts. He hid Jews in his own home, and had his priests and bishops across Europe do the same and much more. Also, speaking out publicly against Hitler would not have accomplished anything except the deaths of millions of Catholics. Catholic clergy were already being murdered across Europe by the thousands, while the laity was also being terrorized and butchered. If Pius had spoken out publicly against the Nazis, it would only have caused them to intensify their wrath against the Catholic people's of Europe. By resisting Hitler, though the use of spies and assassins (again, he was in direct league with the German resistance which tried to kill Hitler), he was able to mobilize the thousands of remaining Catholic clergy and many of the laity to hide and protect Jews as best as they could. They saves many, and much of the modern Jewish community owns their lives to Pius.
@@themessenger6688 Additionally, had he spoken-out publicly against Hitler he would have had to explain why he helped him rise to power in the first place.
@@martinocelotl8326 Again, there is no evidence that Pius helped Hitler "rise to power" in the first place. No one has been able to present any evidence to back up that claim.
@@themessenger6688 Will your response, once again, be that it's only natural that for Pacelli to help Hitler because the Soviets were worse? "Through the door that had been left ajar, Pascalina overheard the prelate [Pacelli] say, 'Munich has been good to me. So has Germany. I pray almighty God that this land remains a holy land, in the hands of Our Lord, and free of communism.' ... It did not come as a surprise to her, therefore, in light of Pacelli's hatred of the Reds, to see the prelate present Hitler with a large cache of Church money to aid the rising revolutionary and his small, struggling band of anticommunists. 'Go quell the devil's works,' Pacelli told Hitler. 'Help spread the love of Almighty God.' 'For the love of Almighty God," she heard the young man [Hitler] reply.'" Source:, Murphy, "La Popessa," 1983.
He did not himself plot the assassination itself, however he was in aware of, in support of, and involved in the Valkyrie plot (the plot to assassinate Hitler, launch a coup against the Nazis, End the war and holocaust, and remove German troops from lands they invaded).
Very true. And he hid Jews in his own home, and had his priests and bishops across Europe do the same and much more. Also, speaking out publicly against Hitler would not have accomplished anything except the deaths of millions of Catholics. Catholic clergy were already being murdered across Europe by the thousands, while the laity was also being terrorized and butchered. If Pius had spoken out publicly against the Nazis, it would only have caused them to intensify their wrath against the Catholic people's of Europe. By resisting Hitler, though the use of spies and assassins (again, he was in direct league with the German resistance which tried to kill Hitler), he was able to mobilize the thousands of remaining Catholic clergy and many of the laity to hide and protect Jews as best as they could. They saves many, and much of the modern Jewish community owns their lives to Pius.
The pro side (Norwich &Co.) lost on purely historical and intellectual grounds. They won they emotional side. The con side (Doino and Rychlak) simply mounted a devasting historical & rational argument that was tighlty argued and reasoned. At this point believing that Pius XII was silent in the face of evil would be done out of hatred for the Catholic Church not on evidence. The same way that fundamentalists believe in special creation so would you have to believe Pius XII was silent.
In the meantime, dying a martyr was traditionally one of the greatest virtues in Catholicism. What would the Catholic church look like today if the Vatican could confidently say "Yeah, in those days we stayed true to our word, we were the big middle finger sticking out from Rome to all fascist governments". But instead we are holding debates over whether the Pope has his tail partially or mostly between his legs.
Logically, historically and morally he was a courageous, caring and astute man who did all he could to oppose Nazism and save countless peoples on many fronts including the Jews -- 4720+ saved in Rome alone. Edith Stein was mentioned in the video. She was an intellectual and Catholic nun, died in the concentration camp because the Church authorities pushed the Nazi too hard. He was in a no win situation but did remarkably well. My only hope is that more Jewish people in Europe during the Nazi reign speak out and record their experiences before they die so the false re-writing of history will be more clearly shown for what it is .
@@richardbono5540 Logically, historically and morally he was a courageous, caring and astute man who did all he could to oppose Nazism and save countless peoples on many fronts including the Jews -- 4720+ saved in Rome alone. Edith Stein was mentioned in the video. She was an intellectual and Catholic nun, died in the concentration camp because the Church authorities pushed the Nazi too hard. He was in a no win situation but did remarkably well. My only hope is that more Jewish people in Europe during the Nazi reign speak out and record their experiences before they die so the false re-writing of history will be more clearly shown for what it is .
@@1234poppycat Where would you like to start rewriting history? What was logically, historically, morally, courageous, caring and astute about the rat line?
Another important detail ought to be mentioned, is the "Enabling Act "; a law passed in Reichstag and Reichsrat (March 1933)that enabled the chancellor(Hitler) to enact laws without consulting the parliament, hence legalised his dictatorship. In order to get the 2/3 majority needed to pass the Act in the parliament,he made a deal with with the Centre Party's chairman, Ludwig Kaas, a Catholic priest, finalising an agreement by 22 March. In exchange Hitler promised to negotiate a Concordat with the Holy see(which he did 4 months later ,July 1933) .By the way ,the Reichskonkordat was signed by then Sec. Of State Cardinal Pacelli on behalf of the Holy See
Two specific issues raised in the debate and by audience members struck me as odd. First was the question of why Pius XII had never offered a Requiem Mass for the Jewish dead. A Requiem Mass (the ancient Tridentine rite) is a Roman Catholic ritual for blessing and burial of their dead. It is not something that would be thought appropriate for a deceased of another faith, not even for a Protestant Christian. In fact, the offering of such a Mass for the Jewish dead might easily have been seen as insulting by both Jews and Roman Catholics. The second point was the assertion that Angelo Roncalli (later John XXIII) said that he had only been following the example of Pius XII when forging baptismal certificates for Jews in order to save them from the concentration camps. I've read many accounts of Roncalli's actions at the time. In none of those accounts have I found any sense that he was following the Pope's instructions, express or implied. Aside from those issues, I'd only say that I would far rather read Mr. Doino's comments than listen to them.
While the source of the directive to forge of the baptismal certificates is unknown, the reason behind such is due to the clause in the Reichskonkordat that places Catholics in German occupied territories under Church protection. Of course, the Germans didn't honor that clause in the treaty.
@@frereM I would be interested in the reviewing your sources on Roncalli's actions before making any other speculation. I think that you're referring to events at the end of the war and thus my earlier speculation was wrong. Sorry for the confusion.
By "endeavor" are you referring to an all-out effort to apologize for and defend the Catholic Church or an effort to reveal the truth, no matter how much it may tarnish the Catholic Church?
The question raised by the floor at 1:21:00 best indicates where the Pope stood. As one revered by all Roman Catholics, he could have spoken out against Hitler and the rounding up and murder of Jews. And it is so lame to say that his message could not have reached certain parts of Europe. Where there is a will, there is a way!
As a former R.C. priest, I find it pathetic that Catholics have so little regards for their clergy that they don't expect them to do anything tough or courageous. Would you excuse a firefighter who didn't get on a fire truck to go to a fire because he feared getting burned?
W. Doino attitude, during the argument wasn't professional at all... whether Pacelli did little or not,to help the Jews is debatable.(even if I think he was too silent about it) However there is no doubt that he viewed Communism as far more dangerous than Nazism. And scholars will always recall the clerical fascism( Ideology)adopted by various political parties, States and heads of states like Ante Pavelic of Croatia, Joseph Tiso of Slovakia, Antonio Salazar of Portugal and Franco of Spain.
Your comments are not put in any context. Catholics who did not want to support any side in the Spanish civil war were persuaded towards fascism because the communists and left who opposed them killed every Catholic priest they came across With the only effective opposition to state terror being other state terror of a lesser nature they did not have a choice.
@@1234poppycat I'm not talking about regular catholics...I'm talking about the big shots in that Institution, who made decisions like makinga deal with Hitler in 1933 (ReichKonkordat) and supporting murderous regimes such as Ustasa in Croatia. These are facts not mere words !
@@vimana8873 They are facts but you give the wrong impression. The Catholic Church was opposed to these regimes but signed deals like Chamberlin signed the "Peace in our time" deal with Hitler and SALT between the USA and the Soviet Union
They couldn't distinguish Popey-boy from being the right hand of god on earth and just another politician. His lack of action indicated he valued politically expediency of his written condemnation over actions that would have actually done some good, such as praying to fix things and write about how to fix things, but never actually get off your damn knees and do what needs to be done. If the pope would have forced the hand of the nazi's to kill him as a maryter, then that would have been powerful, just like the soldiers that lost their lives in this fight. This politician couldn't even do what basic farmers and enlisted teachers as soldiers were willing to risk and do. To that man's question about who ever in this time did enough to stop the nazi's? The soldiers did. They gave everything. Your pope wrote a letter and prayed.
He also did little or nothing to save Catholics of nations attacked by Nazi Germany. Poland is a leading example as several thousand RC priests were murdered as were 2.7 million RC citizens plus 3 million Polish Jews. The Pope was obsessed with the communist threat and organised Vatican Foreign policy by signing Concordats both as Secretary of State and Pope, with Fascist States , one of the first of which was with Nazi Germany.
Catholics of nations attacked by Nazi Germany What should he have done? Send the 200 Swiss Guardsmen? The Papal Army hadn´t been a thing for almost 400 years when Hitler came around. Call a crusade? Like seriously what do you imagine? Intelligence? Yeah they did that, the Vatican worked closly with the OSS to support resitence groups.
Early, when Pius XII spoke out against the Nazis, what resulted was the purge of the Warsaw Ghetto. So, he went underground and opted to act surreptitiously and silently. The work done for Jews between Pius XII and Eugenio Maria Zolli, the chief rabbi of Rome, is detailed in the rabbi’s autobiography, “Before the Dawn: Autobiographical Reflections....” More is available in “The Myth of Hitler's Pope: How Pope Pius XII Rescued Jews from the Nazis” (2005), by Rabbi David G. Dalin, Regnery Publishing, “Disinformation” (2013), by Ion Mihai Pacepa, in which he thoroughly exposes the Marxist treachery of sullying the Pope’s reputation, “Pope Pius XII: Architect for Peace,” by Margherita Marchione. Also, some candid and relevant facts are alluded to in “Valkyrie: An insider’s account of the plot to kill Hitler,” by Hans Bernd Gisevius (1946), I possess hundreds of letters (many personal) and published accounts of Pius' activities in this regard. Pius was called “The best friend the Jews had in Europe” by Ben Gurion, praised and later eulogized by Golda Meir, and early considered in Israel as a Righteous Gentile. Then a Dutch Communist concocted a vile smear in the form of a play depicting an icy Pius XII as an uninterested party and the lie was purveyed by Leftists the world over.
St Peter is probably turning in his grave hearing this defence for his aleged succesor, Pius the XIIth. If you're faced with such an unprecedented situation and you're the Pope you either follow the footsteps of those martyrs who faced even more cruelty or you simply step aside and appoint someone who is prepared to assume that role and everything that comes with it. I'm sure the RC Church had at the time a vast pool of far more courageous and inspirational figures than Eugenio Pacelli.
My comment merely states the facts. He hid Jews in his own home, and had his priests and bishops across Europe do the same and much more. Also, speaking out publicly against Hitler would not have accomplished anything except the deaths of millions of Catholics. Catholic clergy were already being murdered across Europe by the thousands, while the laity was also being terrorized and butchered. If Pius had spoken out publicly against the Nazis, it would only have caused them to intensify their wrath against the Catholic people's of Europe. By resisting Hitler, though the use of spies and assassins (again, he was in direct league with the German resistance which tried to kill Hitler), he was able to mobilize the thousands of remaining Catholic clergy and many of the laity to hide and protect Jews as best as they could. They saves many, and much of the modern Jewish community owns their lives to Pius.
@@themessenger6688 If Pacelli, as Pope, had spoken out publicly against Hitler, wouldn't he also have to explain why he helped Hitler rise to power? Remember, Sr. Pascalina and that "large cache of money from the Vatican," c.1921? Obviously Pacelli thought it better to hush the whole affair up and just Consecrate the entire world instead of focusing solely on Russia.
Every shred of evidence shows that Pope Pius XII hated Nazism as much as he hated the communism. This goes way back to the days when he was Cardinal Pacelli, and he met with archbishop Fulton Sheen to have deep discussions on the evils of the anti-religion movements called communism and Nazism. Pacelli was on record calling Hitler "A dangerous egomaniac." The Soviets fully understood that Pius posed a mortal threat to their ideology, as he despised communism as much as he did Nazism. He had shown his revulsion in Bavaria long before he became Pope, which is why communists tried to kill him in 1919. Several prominent Rabbi's like David Dalin came to his defense, saying Pope Pius XII saved many jews during WWII. The smear campaign on Pope Pius was so thorough, and it had the help of the mainstream media like the New York Times in the United States. This smear went so well, the Soviets used it as their model to smear their enemies in the future.
I would agree with you that Pacelli hated Nazism, if you confine the scope of your argument to the time Pacelli was Pope, but if you look into the time Pacelli was a Vatican politician, starting in the late 1910s, he seemed to like Hitler and the Nazis very well.
@@martinocelotl8326 That was before Hitler showed his true colors. Most people around the world thought he was good, until years later when he showed his true self. During that time, in the late 1910's, millions of Germans were starving and sadly Hitler was practically the only one feeding them with bread lines. When he began building up his military again, persecuting the Jews, and suppressing Catholics/protestants. He even specifically targeted Catholic clergy in Poland and other countries for extermination.
@@themessenger6688 In other words, yes he did support the Nazis and their plans to remove the Communists from power in Russia, and just about everything else that was detailed in Mein Kampf.
Pope Pius XII did everything to oppose the Nazis and Hitler. He was a trained diplomate. Rabbi David G Dalin it the authority of "The Myth of Hitler's Pope" which exposes this myth and how he rescued thousands of Jews from the Nazis.
What you fail to realize is while he may not have mentioned them directly, what he wrote still allowed him to make the moves he did to save the Jewish population by insisting that the Germans had no right to to block the Church from speaking out on morality and anyone who was baptized Catholic was Catholic through this, Pius enabled the ability to "convert" most of the Jews enabling them to be safe, he also created a office to enable people to find lost relatives as a way of uniting Jewish
The Catholic church history is riddled with Saints and Martyrs who stood up for Christ's teaching, Pious took the save and easy way out. Sorry not Saint material in my eyes.
She’s dressed in purple & scarlet She’s adorned in gold, gemstones & pearls She holds a golden cup She rides the beast She Fornicates With Kings Woman was drunk on the blood of the saints, the blood of the martyrs who testified for Christ.
Great debate. I know that Pope Pius XII did everthing he could do. Looking back, we realize that he could probably could do more. The same applies to Roosevelt, Churchill, Stalin, and the rest of the world leaders. But one things is certain: humandkind failed, and we shall pray for all victims of the Holocaust. For God there is no time-dimension, so a prayer now is as good as one during the war. We sall embrace actions to promote peace and better life for all.
It's not what he didn't do -- it's what he did: he fostered the Nazis from the early 1920s on until the war. But after 1939 the Vatican and the Nazis were no longer friends. Pacelli recognized that he personally bore some responsibility for creating the Nazi beast that later waged a genocide, but he was either too ashamed to admit it, or perhaps he erroneously thought he was protecting the Church by obfuscating this fact.
Churchill, FDR and the rest were not the Vicar of Christ on Earth, the successor of St. Peter, the Holy Father, Supreme Pontiff, Bishop of Rome. Those titles require a lot more of a man than President or Prime Minister. They require a commitment to moral truth, to the teaching of Christ -- a Jew who was unjustly murdered by the State for preaching what he thought was the truth. If Jesus had been around during WWII, he would surely have said "What you do to those Jews, Gypsies, and others, you do also to Me."
He hid Jews in his own home. And during his papacy, thousands of priests and bishops across Europe helped to hide and protect Jewish people from Hitler's regime. Even more so, the papacy itself, under Pius's command, was in league with the Germany resistance movement; the Germans that attempted to kill Hitler. Anyone who says that Pius did "nothing to help the Jews" can go to hell.
Stalin once asked the rhetorical question how many divisions the pope had. He wanted to emphasize that the pope was not a power he had to take into account. At least Stalin had a valid point to make. And it is always very convienient to point one's finger towards others. I remind everbody of the shameful result of the conference of Evian in 1938 when no country but the Dominican Republic was willing to take more Jewish refugees. They were all so sorry but they were just not able to do more for the Jews. The US congress expressedly voted against the acceptance of 14'000 jewish children. Of course there are many more exemples.
Seanynut, it's no wonder that you are so misinformed about the role of the Catholic Church in the holocaust. Maybe you can find somebody who can explain to you what "or" means, as in " given the fact that 98% of Germans were self professed Catholics OR other Christians at the time " . For those who can read, Google "RCscandal" to find my very informative web site on this very important topic.
Self-professed does not equate being, friend. “Whoever exalts race, or the people, or the State, or a particular form of State, or the depositories if power, or any other fundamental value of human community - however necessary and honorable be their functions in worldly things - whoever raises these functions above their standards value and digitized them to an idolatrous level; distorts and perverts an order of the world planned and created by God; he is far from the true faith in God and from the concept of life which that faith upholds. - Pius XIi. Here we can see Pius taking jabs at Hitler and the third reich who exalt race, the Germanic people, and the German state above all else. If you’re a Nazi catholic, then you’re a heretic, and are refused to be giving services of the sacrament.
nope. The chief rabbi of rome defended the pope and said the pope and the church did more to save jewish lives than anyone else. Look up what The chief Rabbi of rome said HIMSELF instead of repeating second hand information from biased sources
+Cynthia Rose Horton Hi I agree at all with this vide. It's very easy to proof that Pius XII was anti semite, anti Jewish and anti Israel. After the Second World War was over and Hitler defeated, Pius XII, nevertheless, rejected to recognizer Israel State (Joan Paul II dit it, why Pius XII not???) By other hand, Pius XII made the decision changing his suport to the Nazis because he was afraid of the Germany failures next to 1945. Best regards
+Conrad Penyalva Abosolute Rubbish. What I stated in my initial comment is historical fact, and easily verified. Look up what the chief Rabbi of Rome said HIMSELF instead of relying on other sources that "quote" him. Then check out Michael Savage, (himself a Hew) He ALSO defends Pope Pius.
The Jewish people call Pius XII a Rightius man.
The Chief Rabbi of Rome wrote a book called "Before The Dawn" Praising the Pope and after the war he was so impressed by the catholic church that he converted to the church.
At his baptism he took the name of Eugenio to show his respect for Pius XII using the Popes own name at Baptism
Balderdash!
@ John....oh no !!! how can I "come back" to a profound comment like that? lol :D
Through out recent history, see no evil, hear no evil and never speak out about evil. Pedophilia, abuse, slavery and the list goes on
I'm proud that the Philippines accepted Jewish refugees during their persecution. Let us pray for the protection of the Philippines & Poland...in Jesus name, amen.
Rejected by Western countries and even USA, 10,000 visas were to be given by the Philippine government but only 1,200 Jews were able to escape Nazi Germany and reached the Philippines.
Brother Georgio - Shanghai, China saves thousands upon thousands of Jews during this plight on humanity. Pious did nothing to save the Jews, until the later part of the war. This is the main reason he will never be canonized. Just the truth!
Germany's ally the Japanese encouraged Jewish immigration, they wanted to foster a merchant class in China after they "holocausted" the Chinese. A little ironic as the Chinese are considered the Jews of Asia. Nazi Party member John Heinrich Detlef Rabe saved Chinese from Japanese atrocities in Nanking. Poland on the other hand, not so much, look into the pogroms against returning Jews AFTER THE WAR
So did the Japanese. They wanted to create a merchant class in China...after they wiped out the Chinese. One of their Ambassador's Chiune Sugihara in Lithuania was issuing so many visas it got a little embarrassing for them. Then there was the Nazi diplomat during the Shanghai Massacre who was saving Chinese from the Japanese. Moral of the story, "don't trust leaders, watch parking meters"
@ Georgio del Kruz so did Japan
Look at the jews the Pope did save, most of them converted to catholicism do to the Pope helping them, we tend to forget rabbi zolli who converted to catholicism after the war. The Pope could only do so much without giving away the people he was saving including his own people.
He hid Jews in his own home. And during his papacy, thousands of priests and bishops across Europe helped to hide and protect Jewish people from Hitler's regime. Even more so, the papacy itself, under Pius's command, was in league with the Germany resistance movement; the Germans that attempted to kill Hitler. Anyone who says that Pius did "nothing to help the Jews" can go to hell.
I'm glad to hear you concede that the pope, who is supposedly the Vicar of Christ on Earth and has direct contact with God, is basically as powerless as anybody else. And it takes no power whatsoever to simply declare that the Nazi regime was evil, which he was too cowardly to do.
That is fine, but convert all the people who were shipped off to Auschwitz then.
@passionfruit1289Do you have any evidence for this serious accusation?
''The Pope could only do so much without giving away the people he was saving including his own people.''
As the supposed Vicar of Christ and leader of the supposed Mother church, it was his responsibility to take a very vocal, very public, very firm, very official stance on the horrors of the Holocaust. He failed to do so until 1942, after Hitler made the blunder of fighting on two fronts and doomed his Reich. It was only then, that Pachelli made his stand known. He never excommunicated any of the Catholic Nazi leaders. Either Pacelli wanted Hitler to win or he was a coward and a man with no moral compass.
Why did the state of Israel take up so much of this debate? It had nothing to do with the topic. Israel was founded in 1948, years after the war. Complete red herring.
no political debate is complete without a bit of Israel!
And jews love to talk about them self's
@@Willow-uk-1Unlike us whites. We happen to be the humblest race in the universe.
Ok it seems like there is a lot of information coming from both sides that all contradict each other (even though not directly). But the most powerful argument I think was the argument of those who gave Pope Pius XII praise after it was all said and done. I mean who would know better than the victims themselves, right? On top of this the supporting side (for the motion) admitted that "perhaps he felt he was saving peoples lives..." All in all it seems those who want to discredit the Pope are saying that they wanted a Pope that would "stand up and say what you believe..." and then having thousands of more people died from such lack of prudence. As that which happened with Archbishop Johhannes de Jong, who if you recall, spook out against the Nazis and thus caused the Germans to round up the Jews and sent them to there deaths.
Indeed.
"On July 26, 1942 Dutch bishops, including Archbishop Johannes de Jong, issued a decree that openly condemned Nazi deportations of Dutch workers and Jews. The Nazis retaliated by seizing 245 Catholics of Jewish descent, including Edith Stein.[2] The Vatican used the Netherlands' experience to explain its silence during the years of the Holocaust.[3] After the German retaliation, Sister Pasqualina Lehnert, Pius XII's housekeeper and confidante, said the Pope was convinced that while the Bishop’s protest cost more than two hundred lives, a protest by him would mean at least two hundred thousand innocent lives that he was not ready to sacrifice. While politicians, generals, and dictators might gamble with the lives of people, a Pope could not."
One cannot deny that Archbishop Johannes de Jong's condemnation lead to the deportation of 245 catholics of Jewish descent. However, it must be noted that at the time of this condemnation, the Nazis had already begun a large action against Dutch Jews (who were identified based on 'race' rather than religion per Nazi ideology). It is likely that these 245 catholics of Jewish descent would be among the victims of this series of deportations or the many more to come. One cannot disagree with the facts of the reprisal by the Nazis, but it is dangerous to presume that de Jong's condemnation somehow kickstarted the holocaust in the Netherlands or measures against Dutch Jews.
Furthermore, one could argue that de Jong's condemnation contributed to the remarkably high number and proportion of Jews saved by the Dutch resistance (16,500 out of a population of ~150,000 in 1941). Contrast this with a country such as Slovakia, which had a catholic priest as its president and saw pervasive complicity by catholic authorities (e.g Ján Vojtaššák), where very few Jews were saved by the resistance or individual sympathetic gentiles, and Jews encountered pogroms upon their return (e.g the Topolcany and Bratislava pogroms). Speaking of pogroms in post-war Europe, Pope Pius XII did nothing to condemn the Kielce pogrom (where 42 Jews were killed) despite being asked to do so during an audience with Rabbi Phillip Bernstein, the advisor to the US on Jewish affairs in Europe. Pope Pius' reasoning for not condemning the pogrom was, quote, 'it is difficult to communicate with the Church in Poland because of its isolation behind the Iron Curtain.'
The first speaker is a total moron. He claims that Pacelli brought two railroad cars of food with him because his delicate stomach could not stand German food. This is a lie. He is an idiot for repeating an obvious lie. Germany was on the brink of starvation. The food was immediately distributed to the people of Germany who were going hungry.
Isn't it amazing how low these guys will go to slime a Pope?
He didn't say 2 car loads but 60 cases other than that what is your proof that it isn't true?
Give us a source for your assertion.
I find it interesting that the 2nd speaker states that the claims made by the 1st speaker were bad translations...because of what was said but never built a case to prove it.
Well later this was not countered or opposed
He could have presented the alternate translation which would have certainly been similar. Anyway, nobody wanted to be forced to have to endure more of Doino's shrill.
I also noted none of the pro Pacelli people touched the 'why didn't the pope excommunicate catholic Nazi leaders.' There's no way to smoke and mirrors that one.
I find it incredible that the PRO camp won this debate. They presented hardly any evidence. They mainly rehashed old accusations that are no longer generally accepted by the historical community.
That's england for you. A nation of screwed up atheists who doesn't care about truth any more.
britain has been anti catholic since 500 years always supporting the protestants
It tells you more about the hostility against Catholicism than the truth about the Pope
They mainly rehashed old accusations that are no longer generally accepted by the historical community. ''
Nothing has changed. THERE WAS NO PUBLIC, LOUD, OFFICIAL DENOUNCEMENT OF THE THRID REICH BY THE POPE UNTIL AFTER MOST OF THE HORRORS HAD PEAKED AND GERMANY WAS LOSING THE WAR. That began in 1942 when Hitler decided to fight the war on two fronts, an insane decision. The Vatican knew his cause was lost and it was only then that they finally made a public announcement condemning Hitler.
@@tomthx5804 A nation of screwed up atheists who doesn't care about truth any more.'
That's papists for ya, always trying to change history.
As always it's ever only the Catholic Church that is held up to account for what it didn't do during WW2, the fact that almost no other world religion had anything to say against the Natzi persecution of the Jews seems to be entirely overlooked. The church of England made no reference to the holocaust, while the British Royal Family had an allegiance to the Natzi party, through Edward V111.There was nothing Pius X11 could have done, that would have made the slightest difference to the plight of the Jews, other than protect them as best he could, behind the walls of the Vatican, and in many other religious houses and seminaries. Speaking out openly against the Natzi regime would have cost even more lives, and effectively brought the closure, of many places of refuge.
Exactly. Some people just expect them to have charged headlong at machineguns. If anyone is going to be blamed, blame the military powers: French for not intervening in 1936 when the Rhineland was remilitarized, or the British in 1938 when they didn't back up Czechoslovakia.
Yes but Patricia, it went on 're
It went on indeed his nose. England were !pre removed from it. But The Pope was meant to be the most force
Monsignor Hugh O'Flaherty did so much to save the Jews
The Church of England of course supported King and Country in the war. Britain was never occupied by the Germans. The Royal Family had no allegiance whatsoever to the Nazis. That is a stupid slander, based on the foolishness of the Duke of Windsor, who, after he abdicated, visited Germany and was greeted by Hitler. The King and his family were completely committed to British victory, and did everything they were asked to do to help the cause.
Pius XII was the Vicar of Christ on Earth, the head of the Roman Catholic Church, with its hundreds of millions of members, its own independent country and vast wealth and power. He could have used his position to condemn Hitler and his gang for their horrible crimes and call upon all Catholics to oppose them. He could have excommunicated Hitler and his gang, denying them the sacraments until they stopped their criminal actions. Instead, he kept silent and let his priests do as they thought best.
He hid Jews in his own home. And during his papacy, thousands of priests and bishops across Europe helped to hide and protect Jewish people from Hitler's regime. Even more so, the papacy itself, under Pius's command, was in league with the Germany resistance movement; the Germans that attempted to kill Hitler. Anyone who says that Pius did "nothing to help the Jews" can go to hell.
I am sure the British Royal family did more to help the Jews after they openly supported Hitler before the War.
Or maybe Time Magazine did more to help the Jews after naming Hitler Man of the Year in 1933.
Or how about Henry Ford who was building trucks for the German Wermarch in Cologne Germany?
Do you catch the point?
Over 30 western countries refused to take on Jewish refugees from Nazi Germany in 1938. At the same time cardinal pacelli was trying to get Jews out of Nazi Germany to save them. Funny how no one blames western countries for turning their backs on Jewish refugees.
''Do you catch the point?''
NO. None of those other sources CLAIM TO BE THE VICAR OF CHRIST RUNNING AN INFALLIBLE CHURCH. He had a responsibility to speak up. His position COMPELLED HIM TO. He failed miserably.
Had no political power to 'save' anybody or do so called academics not understand his role in the twentieth century (hint it was different to what it was in the 12th Century).
Will we also be asking in fifty years if the Church of Rome could have done more to save the Palestinians? A people marked for erasure from history by the world's powers.
Pius XII duty was to protect Catholics and to protect all humanity by those means. Jews had every financial institution of the day under their control, they had 53 countries declaring war on Germany. They had blank permission to empty Palestine and start a Jewish nation all for themselves. What else did they want???
you don't need permission to save a life
Really? As Pope, he had no power? Are you trying to insult the office of the Pope?
Palestinians? A made up culture. What language do the palestinians speak? Arabic. There is no such language as palestinian.
@@kooringagnd Even Ptolemy made mention of the land of Palestine in his maps before Christ. Palestine is an ancient land, it is Israel that is a recent invention. No country of Israel ever existed until the 20th Century.
Get your facts correct and stop just dishing up the old lies. Why was the Pope thanked by multiple sources after WW2 for all that he did to save Jewish people, and why is he considered "righteous among the nations"? One of the chief rabbis was so impressed by all that the Pope did to save the Jews - it is now known that he actually saved more Jewish lives than all the European countries put together! - that he himself decided to convert to Catholicism
that he himself decided to convert to Catholicim''
Yea, that's what we call a turncoat. Pacelli was either a coward or a closet fascist. All the time, since 1939, when jews were being imprisoned and killed, he kept silent and offered no official, public condemnation of the Third Reich. The turncoat Chief rabbi was a fool as well.
Sir Geoffrey lands a pretty low blow when saying about the Pope’s opposition to Communism being about “protecting the Pacelli estates in Italy “. Pope Pius knew of the martyrdom of Christians in the Soviet Union and feared the expansion of that State into Eastern Europe inflicting suffering on many others
Is that why the Ustasi was executing Orthodox Cristians who refused to convert to Catholicism?
From the embarrassingly shameful misdeeds of Catholic institutions, be it testimonies of sexual assaults by young boys, to forced residential schooling of indigenous children, and other crimes, the obvious lesson is, Satan and his Babylonian loyalists have infiltrated the Catholic Church. But I am confident Mother Mary and all the resurrected saints, St Joseph, St Peter... Will protect God's church. I pray for divine intervention if all else fail.
@@joanatan5026 it's not my fault, satan made me do it!
yeah, with the 1917 russian revolution in people's minds (Animal Farm for example was a parody) people feared communism more than facism
our own royal family and arstocracy where apologists to nazism at one point, but certainly not communism
@@joanatan5026 only Jesus saves and protects!!!
A liar against Pius XII. The true is: The Pope saved the jewish people. It's corar. Search the Pave the Way Institute about this.
While is true that Pius XII never met with Hitler, Pacelli certainly did. He met with him personally in 1919. Not only that: he bankrolled him and the Nazi Party! Reference "La Popessa."
Why am I not surprised, here we have Two “Protestant” Brits arguing for the idea that the pope did nothing to help save Jews or speak out against the Nazis, nothing new here really, their implicit bias presented here is laughable at best and an absolute deplorable insult at worst.
There in fact exists much evidence quite to the contrary of their absurd and ridiculous outdated argument. No real debate here other than Pius XII lived a very tumultuous period in history as we all know, and had to skillfully play his cards just right politically to not place the Vatican and the church in direct harms way from a hostile retaliation by Nazi Germany, by no means an easy task in achieving in and of itself.
It’s quite easy for us moderns now to say “he didn’t do enough or did nothing” today with our 21st century world view of things. I’ve come to realization that we may never truly know just how tough and turbulent the mid 20th century actually was other than what information we still have available to us today.
Yep and when the Nazi loot was to be given back to the holocaust survivors, the Vatican ordered the Swiss vaults open.
Oops, my mistake, the Vatican was sued for such, in the 9th Circuit Kangaroo court of Merica!
Absolutely balderdash, Operation Ratline ya imbecile!
@@leonvoltaire that occurred after .. the war.
@@Kitiwake Yes, as did the destruction of Yugoslavia, involving the Vatican, USA and Germany. And through a Google search linking the Knights of Malta and CIA, I came across the gem:
FOIA Nazi War Criminals Disclosure Act
Thus admitting the US government working with Nazis, during the Cold War. If I'm not fooled, what does the intelligence agencies of both Russian and China know?
@@unam9931 That's not what the trail docs revealed. Were you there when the CIA and Mi6, along with Germany, sent arms and funds to the KLA? Right under your know it all nose?
Who give a a flying F about your opinions and you being bloody there?
I was in South Central LA, when the CIA bombed the crack and saw the devastation 1st hand. Now go back and read the transcripts from Slobodan Milošević.
And how why should i give him creditably you ask? Because when he mentioned the Vatican and the USA worked together, with the Nazis{Operation Ratline}after the war, he was telling the truth. And if you want the proof, well here it is: Under the FOIA: Nazis War Criminals Disclosure Act
In short, my government admitted to working with the Nazis, after the war!
Now how about all those Orthodox Churches being destroyed, I'm making that up too? Who's the bloody idiot now, ya wanker?
Why did the SS get vatican passports at the end of the war? There may have been some decent people in the vatican but there were plenty who weren't.
If you guys still think Pope Pius XII is bad, read Church of Spies. It's a great book and it sheds new light upon WW2
He hid Jews in his own home. And during his papacy, thousands of priests and bishops across Europe helped to hide and protect Jewish people from Hitler's regime. Even more so, the papacy itself, under Pius's command, was in league with the Germany resistance movement; the Germans that attempted to kill Hitler. Anyone who says that Pius did "nothing to help the Jews" can go to hell.
that book sucks. Pius XII is only barely tied to the assassination plot and no mention is made of the "hidden encyclical".
I recommend the book 'the Croatian HOLOCAUST'. It's a record of yet another one of Pacelli as Pope's failures as a human being.
The first speaker talks of "Cardinal Pacelli" in1917 in Bavaria, when he was not yet cardinal ! Also, the letter to Hitler expresses the sense of unity with the German People under Hitler's leadership. He ingenuously speaks as if the Nazis would grovel at the Pope's words, when they were publicly barbarous in treating not only Jews, but other ethnicities as well such as Poles and Gypsies with great public cruelty,. The pope could condemn Communist atheists, but many Nazis pretended to be be Christian, some Catholics and other Protestants. The Israeli Jew, Pincus Lapide, studied the Net or secret underground erected by Pius XII saved up to 860,000 Jews from death. The Pros did not present many concrete examples, as opposed to the Cons, but English are generally not friendly to the Catholic Church, and these sessions usually draw non-believers in large numbers, so whatever they may say about that, the anti-pope ending vote is not surprising.
How many Jewish deaths might Pius responsible for by fostering Hitler and the Nazi Party in Germany at its inception and through its genesis?
Who cares what his title was in 1917? Was he not the same human being, regardless of his title? You are looking to criticize irrelevant details so you don't have to take on the relevant ones, which DAMN the Catholic Church quite badly.
Defending THE FINAL SOLUTUION is as despicable as the Vatican is.
@@martinocelotl8326absolute nonsense. Pacelli made 40 speeches on German soil denouncing the Nazis. When Pius XI published the strong condemnation of the Nazis Mit Brenneder Sorge in 1937 he actually admitted that pacelli wrote it. The Nazis recognised pacelli as an enemy. That is why they boycotted his coronation. Nazi newspapers portrayed him as a Jew lover. For once they were telling the truth.
@@wonjubhoy ''Pacelli made 40 speeches on German soil denouncing the Nazis. ''
You made that up. There is no empirical historical evidence of this. The pro Pacelli crowd would have used them.
''The Nazis recognised pacelli as an enemy.''
No, he was a silent ally until 1942 when Hitler began to lose the war. Then he got public. Why didn't Pacelli excommunicate the Catholic Nazi leaders? Why wasn't there an official Vatican condemnation of the Third Reich until way later? Haven't you seen the pictures of Cardinals and Bishops and priests doing the nazi salute? Germany was full of Catholics. Pacelli could have really stood for something. He failed.
The Vatican has no armies. What would have happened had Pius XII spoken out? Look at the Dutch case
What would have happened if Pacelli hadn't provided Vatican backing to the Nazis in the form of financial and official support beginning in the early 1920s? Unless you believe Vatican aid counts for nothing then you must accept that the Nazis and the Vatican both benefited from their long and involved relationship.
So you only speak against murderous atrocity if you are strong? What happened to Christian conscience?????
@@22genghis Exactly. What armies did Jesus have? What would have happened if Jesus hadn't "spoken out"? One had the courage of his convictions, whatever cost that might bear, and the other didn't.
@@22genghis But the Pope did speak it out ... "Mit Brennender Sorge" is a perfect example of Pius condemming the Nazis ideology and still to come actions
You don't have to be in the army to be in the resistance or break codes. Willem Arondeus, a member of the Dutch resistance, gave up his life to blow up a records office to prevent the Nazis from finding jews in the Netherlands Alan Turing broke the Naval Enigma code. (Pius XI made a deal with Mussolini to ban all jews from all the universities in Italy, thus lobotomizing much of the mathematical and scientific talent in Italy.). They were gay men, those people you Catholics hate and persecute.
The first speaker insinuates what a secretary of Pacelli said about Jewish bolshevists and ascribes them to the future pope. He speaks of Jews in Poland but ignores that Poles were the primary target of the Nazis and millions of them were killed, but they are not important to the speaker. He ignores the fact that Poland was invaded in 1939 but Auschwitz began killing 1939. The Polish Jews were One of various ethnic groups that were persecuted.
He speaks of Pius not protesting the 1,000 Jews rounded up in Rome by the Nazis without Pius protesting, but the speaker ignores the fact that Pius had hidden 5000 Jews in the Vatican itself ! If he that ignorant, or is he twisting facts out of Bigotry?
Furthermore, Pius XII had a secret Network or Underground of agents that help in saving Jews, and the Network consisted of bishops, priests, nuns, laymen, and even Vatican diplomats (one of whom was Roncalli, later John XXIII, papal representative in Bulgaria and Turkey). Pincus Lapide, an Israeli Jew, INVESTIGATED the Network and determined that the network had saved about 860,000 Jews.
After the war, the World Jewish Congress and the New York Times praised Pius as the Sole Voice of Reason for his constant condemnations of ethnic and racial hatred and even of civilian suffering in the war. At the time, the Nazis were not the Only oppressors of ethnic groups, as the Soviet Union had theirs, the United States ours (black lynched and Hispanics marginalized, ethnic Japanese in concentration camps, Indian children taken from their families; and the British had the oppressive policies of Colonialism as did many other countries such as Japan and France.
This is all twaddle to the ignorant and Bigoted. Time to end this sort of rubbish.
You are very correct. Thanks for the admirable explanation.
He hid Jews in his own home. And during his papacy, thousands of priests and bishops across Europe helped to hide and protect Jewish people from Hitler's regime. Even more so, the papacy itself, under Pius's command, was in league with the Germany resistance movement; the Germans that attempted to kill Hitler. Anyone who says that Pius did "nothing to help the Jews" can go to hell.
My comment merely states the facts. He hid Jews in his own home, and had his priests and bishops across Europe do the same and much more.
Also, speaking out publicly against Hitler would not have accomplished anything except the deaths of millions of Catholics. Catholic clergy were already being murdered across Europe by the thousands, while the laity was also being terrorized and butchered. If Pius had spoken out publicly against the Nazis, it would only have caused them to intensify their wrath against the Catholic people's of Europe. By resisting Hitler, though the use of spies and assassins (again, he was in direct league with the German resistance which tried to kill Hitler), he was able to mobilize the thousands of remaining Catholic clergy and many of the laity to hide and protect Jews as best as they could. They saves many, and much of the modern Jewish community owns their lives to Pius.
What did the Archbishop of Canterbury say about the holocaust during the War?
I don't think the Archbishop of Canterbury was a big player on the world stage in those days...he was hardly a world leader. The CofE was not an Universal church.....he was merely the Primate of All England.
@@colinlavelle7806 Exactly. Arthur, is any of this sinking in?
There's an old saying "it's easy to be brave behind castle walls". Pious May not have immediately condemned the holocaust however he was living inside a city controlled (or at least surrounded) by Mussolini, who was Hitlers strongest supporter.
And he still saved 860 thousand Jews
And they made a movie, Schindler's list, about a guy who saved 1100
+ Greer Wilson: no castle walls after the war. Why didn't he say condemn the Nazis then?
True
@@tomthx5804 only because Schindler wanted cheap labor. Schindler's wife called him " the Arsehole" for a reason.
I have to wonder, why did the Chief Rabbi of Rome convert to Catholicism after the Second World War and take the baptismal name of Eugenio (Pius's birth name) if he felt Pius XII did nothing. He hid Jews in convents, monasteries, Castel Gafaldo, and the Vatican itself. If he spoke out the way some would have wanted, that protection would have been gone.
He convert !maybe because of Love of Christ but to be m pre cynical maybe he wanted to avoid persecution
My comment merely states the facts. He hid Jews in his own home, and had his priests and bishops across Europe do the same and much more.
Also, speaking out publicly against Hitler would not have accomplished anything except the deaths of millions of Catholics. Catholic clergy were already being murdered across Europe by the thousands, while the laity was also being terrorized and butchered. If Pius had spoken out publicly against the Nazis, it would only have caused them to intensify their wrath against the Catholic people's of Europe. By resisting Hitler, though the use of spies and assassins (again, he was in direct league with the German resistance which tried to kill Hitler), he was able to mobilize the thousands of remaining Catholic clergy and many of the laity to hide and protect Jews as best as they could. They saves many, and much of the modern Jewish community owns their lives to Pius.
Well, that decides the issue, the fact that one Jew converted to Catholicism after the war. I guess the case is closed.
Read everything that Pius XII said or wrote publicly publicly and you will find NOTHING specifically condemning the NAZIS for what they were doing to THE JEWS. He avoided those words like the plague,
Yeah it’s almost like if he did the Catholic Church would’ve been absolutely annihilated by the Nazi scum.
I think I agree with the pro-Pope side, but their one speaker just is very annoying and interruptive, and that voice turns me to the smoothness of anti-pope side.
He hid Jews in his own home. And during his papacy, thousands of priests and bishops across Europe helped to hide and protect Jewish people from Hitler's regime. Even more so, the papacy itself, under Pius's command, was in league with the Germany resistance movement; the Germans that attempted to kill Hitler. Anyone who says that Pius did "nothing to help the Jews" can go to hell.
He also helped thousands of Nazi war criminals escape to Catholic Argentina
Lies.
He hid Jews in his own home. And during his papacy, thousands of priests and bishops across Europe helped to hide and protect Jewish people from Hitler's regime. Even more so, the papacy itself, under Pius's command, was in league with the Germany resistance movement; the Germans that attempted to kill Hitler. Anyone who says that Pius did "nothing to help the Jews" can go to hell.
@@themessenger6688 nooooo What you are saying is the LIES
@@vanpaul147 What lies?
@@themessenger6688 All of the LIES of the Church. Catholic Priests and the Vatican 100% involved th-cam.com/video/yfFvB70TIrw/w-d-xo.html
@@themessenger6688 You believe the above Lies
And now that the archives have been released even Sam Harris had said he is due an apology.
Where can we find the archives?
Where did he say that? Would be amazing of Sam to admit the New Atheists were wrong about him :|
@@mouselord5882interview with mark riebling
Have you got the receipts? I'd like to see those archives and Sam's admission. I guess pigs do fly.
The Vatican recognizes Israel in 1993? Hell, that's all you need to know about this entire debate! AntiSemitism was rife in Europe, America, and the Vatican in that period. But I see an obvious winner in this debate in particular, and in the history of the time in general. But to address the debate, it comes down to one central question: NOT, as the debate posits, did the pope not do enough; NOT, as both sides posit, did the pope take local actions to hide Jews; but this: why did the pope not speak out PUBLICLY against Nazism when it counted - during the war? The entire debate, and the entire controversy surrounding the pope can be boiled down to this question. Yes, the pope took local actions to help Jews, and yes, a lot of Jews were saved IN ITALY from his actions; however, the pope's voice traveled WORLDWIDE. Imagine how many Jews would have been saved in all the other countries that were under the Nazi jack boot had the pope made PUBLIC PROCLAMATIONS?! He refused. He quietly saved lives in Italy. That is to the good, but there is no danger if the enemy does not know your are rebelling, so that is simply moral cowardice when he could have fully used his powers of the spoken word (special note to pope apologists - if you want to know what moral courage looks like against the forces of evil when your survival is at stake, pick up any biography of Churchill - now THERE is the very definition of a man exercising ALL OF HIS POWERS AND BEYOND to save humanity in general and the Jews in particular - never has there been a more philosemitic leader on the public stage, AND THAT MOST CERTAINLY EXCLUDES THE POPE). The pope saved some lives, both sides agree, but think of how many people died in other countries from his moral public cowardice. I'm conservative by nature, but to be intellectually honest, I acknowledge the "for the motion" side of the debate, who clearly put up a stronger defense, and the historical facts which were not nullified in the slightest: why did the pope not acknowledge the existence of Israel (until on his death bed), why did he not follow up LOCAL ACTIONS with GLOBAL DENOUNCEMENTS during the way, and why did he refuse to PUBLICLY acknowledge the moral crimes of the Nazis after the war was over and his sacraments were safe?
To anyone who refutes my comments above, you might want to take a gander at this video on youtube: "The Vatican's Role in the Promulgation of Italy's 1938 Racial Laws (Full Video)" It's very academic and fact-based, and not politically incendiary.
It seems obvious that the reason Pacelli did not speak out against the Nazis is because he was instrumental in fostering them since the early 1920s. The Nazis turned against the Church just prior to the war by making it clear that their intention was not to help the Vatican convert Jews and Orthodox as outlined in the Reichskonkoradt but instead just kill them. This ruined the Church's part of the deal and immediately rendered the the Nazis a political liability for the Church. Sure, Pacelli could have chosen to admit his mistakes but instead he chose to obfuscate his role.
@@willboudreau1187 Well stated. Faith without reason is what underscores mans inhumanity to man, whatever the faith. Here's another one the faithful might want to consider THE CATHOLIC CHIURCH IS A FORCE FOR GOOD IN THE WORLD th-cam.com/video/JZRcYaAYWg4/w-d-xo.html
The overriding assumption in this debate is that Pacelli was some sort of subordinate to Hitler. I feel this is a false assumption and that the facts indicate Pacelli always considered the Holy See supreme to any dictator. His error was to assume that others, especially Catholic politicians, would share his point of view.
Too little!? Yet more than any head of state in Europe. I suppose the beds in Castle Gondalfo weren’t soft enough for revisionists.
Amen . He hid Jews in his own home, and had his priests and bishops across Europe do the same and much more.
Also, speaking out publicly against Hitler would not have accomplished anything except the deaths of millions of Catholics. Catholic clergy were already being murdered across Europe by the thousands, while the laity was also being terrorized and butchered. If Pius had spoken out publicly against the Nazis, it would only have caused them to intensify their wrath against the Catholic people's of Europe. By resisting Hitler, though the use of spies and assassins (again, he was in direct league with the German resistance which tried to kill Hitler), he was able to mobilize the thousands of remaining Catholic clergy and many of the laity to hide and protect Jews as best as they could. They saves many, and much of the modern Jewish community owns their lives to Pius.
Really? He did more than Churchill who sent thousands of soldiers, airmen, and sailors to their deaths in fierce battles against the Nazis? Your pope couldn't even muster the balls to give a simple statement. Care to revise your BS position?
Boy - some people are tough to impress. Here's a better question. What man on earth did *more* to help the Jews during Hitler's reign than Pius XII? Names, dates, time and place, please.
bammbamm12 While at the same time trying to maintain peace in Europe and trying to stay neutral (at least officially) in times of conflict. "Hitler's Pope" my ass...
Leonardo's Truth
??? What? What do you mean he should of sent the Swiss Guard to attack Berlin - you realize the Vatican City is Europe's smallest country? And you realize Pope Pius the 12th went beyond the ethnic and racial lines to save and rescue countless Jews from sure destruction at the hands of the Nazis?
It was the atheistic-communist Soviet Union that tried to say Pope Pius 12th was pro-Nazi and quote-on-quote "Hitler's Pope". To 1). Justify the persecution of the Uniate Catholic Churches in eastern Europe after the war that were now under Soviet influence and occupation and 2). Cover up their own asses for their own humiliating collaboration with the Nazis during the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact era...
Leonardo's Truth
Oh I see. Pardon me then, I apologize. I deal with a lot of critics of the Catholic Church on a daily basis and you won't believe how many absurd and ridiculous arguments I've heard. So it's hard for me to distinguish between who's being serious and who's not being serious and or making a joke. Again, my apologies...
Shaddap.
Yes - please rest your case. (though, as the saying goes, "no rest for the wicked".)
It would be blamed for silly heroic actions that leads to thousands of innocent death. Instead - critics would probably said - Pope had to be much more delicate and actually save lives.
It is a vitrue to be a martyr. But doing something that forces others to be martyrs is entirely different.
Amen
''But doing something that forces others to be martyrs is entirely different.''
Wrong. Not if it's the truth you are speaking. The Apostles of the early church could have kept silent with the truth and thus avoided many Christians dying in the Colosseum. Pacelli failed as a leader and as a supposed Christian.
This man has no clue what the Holy Father did.......
Now you know why Western Civilzation is crumbing. We do not value the truth anymore, we elevate complete morons to our universities so they can spread lies
As long as spare altar boys abound, , ,
That's a stupid comment
@@johnclarke5459 Nice job of stereotyping all Catholics and Catholic clergy. You gonna call Muslims suicidal fanatics and Jews greedy egotists next?
Holy Father did.......''
There was nothing holy about Pacelli. He's also involved in the Croatian holocaust.
Rabbi David Dalin wrote a book refuting the horsecrap in this video. Pius XII saved thousands of Jews by hiding them in Church properties.. After WWII the Chief Rabbi of Rome became Catholic!
@Ian Lev yeah right. You're listening to fake scholars.
@Ian Lev Do you have copies of the documents or just rumors. If you don't have proof, STFU.
@Ian Lev Source, please.
@Ian Lev First things first. He remained silent but Pius instructed churchmen verbally to shelter Jews in churches, monasteries and convents. None of this was on paper. He remained silent but he did what he could secretly to help Jews. This is all documented.
@Ian Lev You take DW as a source? My gosh, they're as bad a s VOA or CNN!
A lot more people would have suffered. He saved many many people during the war
He declaimed antisemitism only as it pertained to Catholics of Jewish extraction. Dissembling and personal insults are the surest sign of a weak position.
"What the Vatican did will be indelibly and eternally engraved in our hearts. Priests and even high prelates did things that will forever be an honor to Catholicism."
Israel Zolli - chief rabbi of Rome during WW2.
The Rabbi chose to thank the Pope for having helped as he did rather than curse him for facilitating the rise of Hitler and the Fascists for decades prior, and for then helping many of them escape justice after the war.
@@martinocelotl8326 Nazism was condemed by both Pius XI (Mit brennender Sorge) and Pius XII (Summi Pontificatus). Papacy had nothing to do with the rise of nazism. Nazi regime persecuted Catholics including priests and bishops, kiling many. Public actions against nazism by the Church would just lead to more death and suffering. Catholicism was always a moderate way.
On the other hand the Church saved houndred thosands of Jews during the war, hiding them and transporting to free countries. This effort was the greatest. US or UK did virtually nothing.
There is no proof that pope knew about ratlines and even if he knew - after the war communism was rightly seen as the biggest threat. They evacuated them from Soviet sphere of influence. Allies were also keen to forgive some Nazis in Western Europe for the same reason.
@@TheGeneralGrievous19 Perhaps you don't know about Eugenio Pacelli's deep involvement in the genesis and development of Nazi Germany. We can start with the diary of his nun confidant, Sister Pascalina, which attests to Pacelli physically giving Hitler a lump of money to get the Party going way early in the game. Later came the Treaty between Nazi Germany and the Vatican -- good stuff. Sure, Hitler later turned on Pacelli, but neither Hitler nor Pacelli got wha they wanted, which was Russia. No Consecration of Russia! Didn't work out for Pacelli -- less for Hitler.
@@martinocelotl8326 Any direct proof for this revelations or just conspiracy theories overheard somewhere? 😒
There is clear historical evidence that His Holiness Venerable Pius PP. XII was strongly anti-Nazi and anti-totalitarian. It is seen in contemporary acounts and e.g. in his encycical 'Summi Pontificatus'. The Church was always commonsensical so the idea that Germany could be a wall against communist barbarism, especially before the war and German atrocities was not unheard of. The same could be said about British and other Western leaders.
But there was no sympathy or support, especially after true colors were revealed. The Church was very much supressed under Nazi regime and Pius XII was very concerned about well being and lives of Catholics. The concordat with Hitler was signed to give security to those living under German rule. Without it they would be completly left adrift.
@@TheGeneralGrievous19 It's neither a conspiracy nor theory. It was documented in Sr. Paqualina's diary and cited in the book, "La Popessa" (Murphy, 1983.) Considering the diary was written in praise of Pacelli, and that the book was written in defense of him as well, the source is highly credible: yes, Pacelli did put money directly into Hitler's hand.
I think you are correct about the Treaty's purpose to provide security for Catholics living under German rule. The Treaty went further in that it provided security to non-Catholics about to be put under German rule, notably Jews and Orthodox Christians in USSR and eastern Europe, if they agreed to convert to Catholicism. Had the Germans honored that clause the war would have taken a completely different course.
Of course, it is well documented that the Ustashi in Croatia, under Nazi rule, did execute many Orthodox Christians for refusing to convert to Catholicism, so it seems likely they were inclined to honor the clauses of the Treaty for the Germans even if the Germans didn't. I suppose they were better Catholics.
Why didn't the Pope explain his situation after the war finished?..he had ample opportunity to justify his position during the holocaust but never did
As an institution which had propped up the Nazi Party, and with Pacelli himself responsible for that association, Pacelli and the Vatican had a lot of 'splaining to do after the war. I think they decided to obfuscate instead of explain. Remember the Rat Lines. If the Vatican had not helped those Nazis escape they would have been caught by the Allies and the true nature of the relationship between Pacelli and the Nazis would have been revealed. Where there is no contrition there is no forgiveness. You tell me where Pacelli is now.
Basically the Pope’s explanation was, it would be like admitting he did not do enough at that time, for whatever reason..
It looks as if Doino's strategy was to set an example by which Pius XII looked like a saint :-).
Okay he could NOT act for fear of repercussions so many of these gangsters fled to Argentina and Brazil with help from Rome
There is certainly evidence that Catholic officials did help with the Ratlines, however, despite Pacelli's early support for the Hitler and the Nazi Party, by the time the war started and throughout, Pacelli and the Nazis were bitter enemies. Thus, I see no logical reason for Pacelli to have provided Nazis aid in escape. However, if you have any evidence Pacelli did help Nazis escape, please share.
William Doino is a horrid public speaker, not to mention WRONG!
Shame on you to smear the pope , and trying to change the history of the nobles christians . go figure !
Yes, there's so much deliberate intellectual dishonesty in this debate. For example you will often find attackers of Pius XII saying he was anti-semitic and defenders pointing to various claims he made that were against racism, but what the defenders fail to point out is that the majority of attackers are accusing him of discrimination based on belief in the Jewish religion not race and thus pointing out that he was against racial discrimination is beside the point. So many slights of hand.
True. And he hid Jews in his own home. And during his papacy, thousands of priests and bishops across Europe helped to hide and protect Jewish people from Hitler's regime. Even more so, the papacy itself, under Pius's command, was in league with the Germany resistance movement; the Germans that attempted to kill Hitler. Anyone who says that Pius did "nothing to help the Jews" can go to hell.
Well, Pacelli's remarks about Jews did include physical characteristics, not just religious ones.
Jews are a race as well by their own beliefs I do believe.
But Jews are a race. The Nazis killed non-practicing Jews and Catholic Jews.
@@easyenetwork2023 Most definitely. You don't have to be religious to be Jewish by birth (of a Jewish father, or mother, or both), and you can convert to Judaism without being ethnically Jewish, which some wives of Jews do. However, orthodox Jews don't recognize a person of a Jewish father and gentile mother as a Jew, and neither do they accept converts to Judaism as members of the tribe. Orthodoxy in any religion or political ideology is exclusive, not inclusive.
Would you look at this little weasel of a Vatican defender? Ever hear of Joan of Arc? There are thousands of Buddhist monks and "ordinary" Tibetans who have set themselves on fire to protest China's domination of their land.....but you don't see popes or bishops or cardinals making sacrifices like that. Nothing close to it. They're careerists.
Currently watching pope vs hitler on national geographic
It is a more realistic version of then state of affairs. Meuller who survived the war, had the true facts . He was extremely fortunate Poor Admiral Canaris. Very few people realise his efforts towards the favourable culmination of the war. The spying business was a very risky occupation. I have great regard for Count Von Staffenberg. Again, very few people realise that he was a Catholic with a concience. Being critical is easy. The differcult thing is considering a matter without the true facts. Their is too much "Classified Documentation"; which has yet to be released. Will we see these in our lifetime ? Doubtful..
Let me guess. It starts in 1942, when Hitler begins to lose the war.
ur reffering to. His work has been disected and ridiculed. Thirdly The Church did indeed condone a spirtual condemnation of the Jews until 1964. And don't get me started on the screwed up ideas of limbo and Papal infallibility. Also look up Cardinal Law. The story of that man destroys any shreds of the moral legtimacy that ur church claims to have. Btw excuse any typos writting on phone.
funny he. mention Martin Boreman, who was not Catholic and hated Catholics so he does. not what he is talking about
Those against the motion had clearly done years of original research and presented their arguments scrupulously without emotive langauge while the pros relied on secondary sources,their grey hair and inappropriate light-hearted remarks to sway the audience. And the audience was swayed. What does that tell us?
The audience was a bunch of idiots to believe the rubbish they expounded. Let the facts speak for themselves. The Vatican played a major role in saving many jewish people and other people as well. What of the intelligence passed to the allies which assisted their war effort.
U should do ur own research ....about Clerical Fascism, Ustache party in Croatia and President Ante Pavelic,president Joseph Tiso of Slovakia,The Central Party in Germany, Rexiste Party IN Belgium, president Leon Rupnik of Slovenia
Don't forget about about the Nazi Gold and Subsequently the trial Alperin vs Vatican...Also the "Ratlines"
That the game was fixed.
How can you conclude that if they don't cite documents?
Don't waist yer time with these anti-Catholic haters and check out en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximilian_Kolbe
@MrOphachew It won't be a "waste" of time to look up the Inquisition either
Right, don't waste your time learning facts, just accept Church dogma.
@@richardbono5540 You mean the Spanish one? The beacon of bureaucracy and the advancement of judicial proceedings?
@@therac197 Ya that one
No it is not a fact. You made it up.
If, as you claim, 58 million Germans were living in Poland, which towns were they living in and what was the population?
What did George VI say about the holocaust? ?
I don't think it would have been appropriate for the King to comment......after all the Government at the time was 'his Government' and it was their position to speak on such matters.
The Chief Rabbi of Rome, Israel Zolli, and his family, converted to Catholicism in 1945, after the War. In baptism Rabbi Zolli took the Christian name of Eugenio, in honor of Pius XII, Eugenio Pacelli. Eugenio Zolli knew the truth about Eugenio Pacelli.
A very simple anecdotal addition A very devout Polish-American friend of mine was among rhe first liberators of Rome. His unit was given an audience.Years later he confided to me that the reception was glacial.
The film of the visit is available online. It was far from glacial. The Pope is effusive in his praise of the Americans. The crowd was quite happy.
Tom thx: Correct, and it is here on TH-cam in more than one place.
Sorry! I still remember the hurt in his eyes. I also remember the Papal Nazi salute caught on film!
Please refer to the Q --Papal Nazi salute caught on film-- Q Where is this evident? Thank you.
As Nuncio to Allemagne in the 30s. Try Pathé News.
Born in 1933
Also crazy what people do in the name of the godless state such as Pol Pot's Cambodia, Stalin's Russia, Mao's China and yes godless Hitler's Germany. Hitler's god was the old Germanic paginism NOT the classical Jewish/ Catholic one. Nice try though.
Too bad none of the Catholic members of the SS didn't agree with you. And the God referred to on every belt buckle of every Nazi soldier was the pagan God? Nice revisionist history you're putting out there.
@@thanksforbeingausefulidiot9016
The SS had a deep and abiding hatred of the Catholic Church because of nazism. This is undeniable. The record is clear. Any Catholics in the SS were not the practicing kind. They were good nazis.
As for Gott. It predates nazism. By the time It gets to Nazi SS it has become a largely symbolic one,
Roman Catholic Church has saved More Jews than anyone on earth. 700,000 but probably as many as 860,000 Jews from certain death at Nazis hands--
Pinchas Lapide 1967 Book Three Popes and the Jews.
J.Lichten book A Question of moral judgment
Hahahah roman catholic soldiers ustashe killed about one milion ortodox serbs and jews in Yugoslavia.U must read that part. Of history.
Pectoris 4-Hateful slander!!!! This man did not condemn the Nazis, stayed virtually silent on the holocaust, and refused to speak out on German atrocities. He excommunicated communists world wide and did not do the same for German Catholics who persecuted the Jews. Do some reading on this hateful man before spouting nonsense!
Get your facts right Bud.
So one of his parents was saved by Catholics.
I looked at that Daily Mail article but would not take it seriously.
I don't quite understand why American Christians were shocked when they reached the concentration camps in norther Europe. Were the pulpits not decrying daily and or weekly the inhumanity (lack of love) exuded by Russia, Germany and Japan?
Ah well, other world leaders don't claim to be God's vicar on earth. He failed as a man, a leader Anne a Christian.
He certainly did not fail. Logically, historically and morally he was a courageous, caring and astute man who did all he could to oppose Nazism and save countless peoples on many fronts including the Jews -- 4720+ saved in Rome alone. Edith Stein was mentioned in the video. She was an intellectual and Catholic nun, died in the concentration camp because the Church authorities pushed the Nazi too hard. He was in a no win situation but did remarkably well. My only hope is that more Jewish people in Europe during the Nazi reign speak out and record their experiences before they die so the false re-writing of history will be more clearly shown for what it is .
The leading Rabbi of Rome became a Catholic Christian and took the baptismal name Eugene, in gratitude for All Pope Pius XII had done to help the Jewish people. The Prime Minister of Israel, Golda Meir, attended the funeral of Pope Pius XII, to honor his memory of all he did to aid the Jewish people. The new york times headline in 1941 reads, " Pope Pius XII is a lonely voice speaking out against all the darkness covering Europe today". Thousands and thousands of Jewish people have testified they are alive today due the intercession of Pope Pius XII!
I had a conversation with a priest who had spent most of his career in the Vatican. His demeanor darkened perceptibly when the conversation turned into controversy regarding Pius XII. “How could anyone attack that nice old man? He was a saint” was the vociferous argument. And so it goes, Pius has his office, his image, and his loyal supporters. History, thankfully, turns on facts. “Intellectual controversy” devolves upon preponderance of evidence, not canonization. In formal debate one judges coherence, and awards no points for attacking the opposing presenters. Judge for yourself
Doino was rude, shrill and presented weak arguments coupled with cheap personal attacks.
I agree. Very shallow guy
"he could have very likely prevented the whole thing" the guy says.... i'm not sure his reasoning for this, he may well have had a meeting with the nazis i imagine, where they made it clear what they wanted and he exchanges the saftey of the church/state for the jews i imagine
it's easy to judge, but certain Italian things may not have survived nazism without him.... even if he is a worm, like the French leaders, same story. I don't think you know this stuff unless you yourself experience an occupation, London being bombed is nothing compared to that
He hid Jews in his own home. And during his papacy, thousands of priests and bishops across Europe helped to hide and protect Jewish people from Hitler's regime. Even more so, the papacy itself, under Pius's command, was in league with the Germany resistance movement; the Germans that attempted to kill Hitler. Anyone who says that Pius did "nothing to help the Jews" can go to hell.
My comment merely states the facts. He hid Jews in his own home, and had his priests and bishops across Europe do the same and much more.
Also, speaking out publicly against Hitler would not have accomplished anything except the deaths of millions of Catholics. Catholic clergy were already being murdered across Europe by the thousands, while the laity was also being terrorized and butchered. If Pius had spoken out publicly against the Nazis, it would only have caused them to intensify their wrath against the Catholic people's of Europe. By resisting Hitler, though the use of spies and assassins (again, he was in direct league with the German resistance which tried to kill Hitler), he was able to mobilize the thousands of remaining Catholic clergy and many of the laity to hide and protect Jews as best as they could. They saves many, and much of the modern Jewish community owns their lives to Pius.
@@themessenger6688 Additionally, had he spoken-out publicly against Hitler he would have had to explain why he helped him rise to power in the first place.
@@martinocelotl8326 Again, there is no evidence that Pius helped Hitler "rise to power" in the first place. No one has been able to present any evidence to back up that claim.
@@themessenger6688 Will your response, once again, be that it's only natural that for Pacelli to help Hitler because the Soviets were worse?
"Through the door that had been left ajar, Pascalina overheard the prelate [Pacelli] say, 'Munich has been good to me. So has Germany. I pray almighty God that this land remains a holy land, in the hands of Our Lord, and free of communism.'
... It did not come as a surprise to her, therefore, in light of Pacelli's hatred of the Reds, to see the prelate present Hitler with a large cache of Church money to aid the rising revolutionary and his small, struggling band of anticommunists.
'Go quell the devil's works,' Pacelli told Hitler. 'Help spread the love of Almighty God.'
'For the love of Almighty God," she heard the young man [Hitler] reply.'"
Source:,
Murphy, "La Popessa," 1983.
He did not himself plot the assassination itself, however he was in aware of, in support of, and involved in the Valkyrie plot (the plot to assassinate Hitler, launch a coup against the Nazis, End the war and holocaust, and remove German troops from lands they invaded).
Very true. And he hid Jews in his own home, and had his priests and bishops across Europe do the same and much more.
Also, speaking out publicly against Hitler would not have accomplished anything except the deaths of millions of Catholics. Catholic clergy were already being murdered across Europe by the thousands, while the laity was also being terrorized and butchered. If Pius had spoken out publicly against the Nazis, it would only have caused them to intensify their wrath against the Catholic people's of Europe. By resisting Hitler, though the use of spies and assassins (again, he was in direct league with the German resistance which tried to kill Hitler), he was able to mobilize the thousands of remaining Catholic clergy and many of the laity to hide and protect Jews as best as they could. They saves many, and much of the modern Jewish community owns their lives to Pius.
The pro side (Norwich &Co.) lost on purely historical and intellectual grounds. They won they emotional side. The con side (Doino and Rychlak) simply mounted a devasting historical & rational argument that was tighlty argued and reasoned. At this point believing that Pius XII was silent in the face of evil would be done out of hatred for the Catholic Church not on evidence. The same way that fundamentalists believe in special creation so would you have to believe Pius XII was silent.
Folks, read the book: Disinformation by Pacepa and Rychlak. The truth of the situation lies there.
Pope Pius saved 860,000 Jews by making deals with Nazis, kissing Hitler's butt, etc. He's a hero.
In the meantime, dying a martyr was traditionally one of the greatest virtues in Catholicism. What would the Catholic church look like today if the Vatican could confidently say "Yeah, in those days we stayed true to our word, we were the big middle finger sticking out from Rome to all fascist governments".
But instead we are holding debates over whether the Pope has his tail partially or mostly between his legs.
Not just Catholic. We Eastern Orthodox in Serbia and Greece chose to stand up to nazism and we suffered dearly for it.
Logically, historically and morally he was a courageous, caring and astute man who did all he could to oppose Nazism and save countless peoples on many fronts including the Jews -- 4720+ saved in Rome alone. Edith Stein was mentioned in the video. She was an intellectual and Catholic nun, died in the concentration camp because the Church authorities pushed the Nazi too hard. He was in a no win situation but did remarkably well. My only hope is that more Jewish people in Europe during the Nazi reign speak out and record their experiences before they die so the false re-writing of history will be more clearly shown for what it is .
@@1234poppycat he could have done more, the record speaks for itself
@@richardbono5540 Logically, historically and morally he was a courageous, caring and astute man who did all he could to oppose Nazism and save countless peoples on many fronts including the Jews -- 4720+ saved in Rome alone. Edith Stein was mentioned in the video. She was an intellectual and Catholic nun, died in the concentration camp because the Church authorities pushed the Nazi too hard. He was in a no win situation but did remarkably well. My only hope is that more Jewish people in Europe during the Nazi reign speak out and record their experiences before they die so the false re-writing of history will be more clearly shown for what it is .
@@1234poppycat Where would you like to start rewriting history? What was logically, historically, morally, courageous, caring and astute about the rat line?
Another important detail ought to be mentioned, is the "Enabling Act "; a law passed in Reichstag and Reichsrat (March 1933)that enabled the
chancellor(Hitler) to enact laws without consulting the parliament, hence legalised his dictatorship. In order to get the 2/3 majority needed to pass the Act in the parliament,he made a deal with with the Centre Party's chairman, Ludwig Kaas, a Catholic priest, finalising an agreement by 22 March.
In exchange Hitler promised to negotiate a Concordat with the Holy see(which he did 4 months later ,July 1933) .By the way ,the Reichskonkordat was signed by then Sec. Of State Cardinal Pacelli on behalf of the Holy See
Duplicity of the authorities of both church and state thirst for power over us sheep. History is a tangled web of lies and counter lies.
Two specific issues raised in the debate and by audience members struck me as odd. First was the question of why Pius XII had never offered a Requiem Mass for the Jewish dead. A Requiem Mass (the ancient Tridentine rite) is a Roman Catholic ritual for blessing and burial of their dead. It is not something that would be thought appropriate for a deceased of another faith, not even for a Protestant Christian. In fact, the offering of such a Mass for the Jewish dead might easily have been seen as insulting by both Jews and Roman Catholics. The second point was the assertion that Angelo Roncalli (later John XXIII) said that he had only been following the example of Pius XII when forging baptismal certificates for Jews in order to save them from the concentration camps. I've read many accounts of Roncalli's actions at the time. In none of those accounts have I found any sense that he was following the Pope's instructions, express or implied.
Aside from those issues, I'd only say that I would far rather read Mr. Doino's comments than listen to them.
While the source of the directive to forge of the baptismal certificates is unknown, the reason behind such is due to the clause in the Reichskonkordat that places Catholics in German occupied territories under Church protection. Of course, the Germans didn't honor that clause in the treaty.
@@martinocelotl8326 Do you mean to imply that Roncalli received a "directive" from someone to forge the certificates?
@@frereM I would be interested in the reviewing your sources on Roncalli's actions before making any other speculation. I think that you're referring to events at the end of the war and thus my earlier speculation was wrong. Sorry for the confusion.
Brilliant analyses made by William Doino Jr.; wish you success in your endeavour.
By "endeavor" are you referring to an all-out effort to apologize for and defend the Catholic Church or an effort to reveal the truth, no matter how much it may tarnish the Catholic Church?
The question raised by the floor at 1:21:00 best indicates where the Pope stood. As one revered by all Roman Catholics, he could have spoken out against Hitler and the rounding up and murder of Jews. And it is so lame to say that his message could not have reached certain parts of Europe. Where there is a will, there is a way!
As a former R.C. priest, I find it pathetic that Catholics have so little regards for their clergy that they don't expect them to do anything tough or courageous. Would you excuse a firefighter who didn't get on a fire truck to go to a fire because he feared getting burned?
W. Doino attitude, during the argument wasn't professional at all...
whether Pacelli did little or not,to help the Jews is debatable.(even if I think he was too silent about it)
However there is no doubt that he viewed Communism as far more dangerous than Nazism.
And scholars will always recall the clerical fascism( Ideology)adopted by various political parties, States and heads of states like Ante Pavelic of Croatia, Joseph Tiso of Slovakia, Antonio Salazar of Portugal and Franco of Spain.
Your comments are not put in any context. Catholics who did not want to support any side in the Spanish civil war were persuaded towards fascism because the communists and left who opposed them killed every Catholic priest they came across With the only effective opposition to state terror being other state terror of a lesser nature they did not have a choice.
Rubbish. Start reading !!!!
@@1234poppycat I'm not talking about regular catholics...I'm talking about the big shots in that Institution, who made decisions like makinga deal with Hitler in 1933 (ReichKonkordat) and supporting murderous regimes such as Ustasa in Croatia. These are facts not mere words !
@@vimana8873 They are facts but you give the wrong impression. The Catholic Church was opposed to these regimes but signed deals like Chamberlin signed the "Peace in our time" deal with Hitler and SALT between the USA and the Soviet Union
@@1234poppycat Ustasa, was it a deal ? C'mon
They couldn't distinguish Popey-boy from being the right hand of god on earth and just another politician. His lack of action indicated he valued politically expediency of his written condemnation over actions that would have actually done some good, such as praying to fix things and write about how to fix things, but never actually get off your damn knees and do what needs to be done. If the pope would have forced the hand of the nazi's to kill him as a maryter, then that would have been powerful, just like the soldiers that lost their lives in this fight. This politician couldn't even do what basic farmers and enlisted teachers as soldiers were willing to risk and do. To that man's question about who ever in this time did enough to stop the nazi's? The soldiers did. They gave everything. Your pope wrote a letter and prayed.
Well stated, bravo! Those privileged "elites" are double-minded murdering cowards.
He also did little or nothing to save Catholics of nations attacked by Nazi Germany. Poland is a leading example as several thousand RC priests were murdered as were 2.7 million RC citizens plus 3 million Polish Jews. The Pope was obsessed with the communist threat and organised Vatican Foreign policy by signing Concordats both as Secretary of State and Pope, with Fascist States , one of the first of which was with Nazi Germany.
Catholics of nations attacked by Nazi Germany
What should he have done? Send the 200 Swiss Guardsmen? The Papal Army hadn´t been a thing for almost 400 years when Hitler came around.
Call a crusade? Like seriously what do you imagine? Intelligence? Yeah they did that, the Vatican worked closly with the OSS to support resitence groups.
Great debate. Lesson, for the opposition- don't lose your cool stick to the argument.
Early, when Pius XII spoke out against the Nazis, what resulted was the purge of the Warsaw Ghetto. So, he went underground and opted to act surreptitiously and silently. The work done for Jews between Pius XII and Eugenio Maria Zolli, the chief rabbi of Rome, is detailed in the rabbi’s autobiography, “Before the Dawn: Autobiographical Reflections....” More is available in “The Myth of Hitler's Pope: How Pope Pius XII Rescued Jews from the Nazis” (2005), by Rabbi David G. Dalin, Regnery Publishing, “Disinformation” (2013), by Ion Mihai Pacepa, in which he thoroughly exposes the Marxist treachery of sullying the Pope’s reputation, “Pope Pius XII: Architect for Peace,” by Margherita Marchione. Also, some candid and relevant facts are alluded to in “Valkyrie: An insider’s account of the plot to kill Hitler,” by Hans Bernd Gisevius (1946), I possess hundreds of letters (many personal) and published accounts of Pius' activities in this regard. Pius was called “The best friend the Jews had in Europe” by Ben Gurion, praised and later eulogized by Golda Meir, and early considered in Israel as a Righteous Gentile. Then a Dutch Communist concocted a vile smear in the form of a play depicting an icy Pius XII as an uninterested party and the lie was purveyed by Leftists the world over.
the impudence of of these ignorants to call Pius XII hitler's pope
Karl Heinz Deschner considered Pope Pius XII. as being a perfect example of a pontifex - which should tell people all they need to know.
St Peter is probably turning in his grave hearing this defence for his aleged succesor, Pius the XIIth. If you're faced with such an unprecedented situation and you're the Pope you either follow the footsteps of those martyrs who faced even more cruelty or you simply step aside and appoint someone who is prepared to assume that role and everything that comes with it. I'm sure the RC Church had at the time a vast pool of far more courageous and inspirational figures than Eugenio Pacelli.
My comment merely states the facts. He hid Jews in his own home, and had his priests and bishops across Europe do the same and much more.
Also, speaking out publicly against Hitler would not have accomplished anything except the deaths of millions of Catholics. Catholic clergy were already being murdered across Europe by the thousands, while the laity was also being terrorized and butchered. If Pius had spoken out publicly against the Nazis, it would only have caused them to intensify their wrath against the Catholic people's of Europe. By resisting Hitler, though the use of spies and assassins (again, he was in direct league with the German resistance which tried to kill Hitler), he was able to mobilize the thousands of remaining Catholic clergy and many of the laity to hide and protect Jews as best as they could. They saves many, and much of the modern Jewish community owns their lives to Pius.
@@themessenger6688 If Pacelli, as Pope, had spoken out publicly against Hitler, wouldn't he also have to explain why he helped Hitler rise to power? Remember, Sr. Pascalina and that "large cache of money from the Vatican," c.1921? Obviously Pacelli thought it better to hush the whole affair up and just Consecrate the entire world instead of focusing solely on Russia.
The Balfour agreement was condoned by UK government.
The moment communism is called "evil" during the opening round you know everything the speaker says will be biased.
Every shred of evidence shows that Pope Pius XII hated Nazism as much as he hated the communism. This goes way back to the days when he was Cardinal Pacelli, and he met with archbishop Fulton Sheen to have deep discussions on the evils of the anti-religion movements called communism and Nazism. Pacelli was on record calling Hitler "A dangerous egomaniac."
The Soviets fully understood that Pius posed a mortal threat to their ideology, as he despised communism as much as he did Nazism. He had shown his revulsion in Bavaria long before he became Pope, which is why communists tried to kill him in 1919. Several prominent Rabbi's like David Dalin came to his defense, saying Pope Pius XII saved many jews during WWII. The smear campaign on Pope Pius was so thorough, and it had the help of the mainstream media like the New York Times in the United States. This smear went so well, the Soviets used it as their model to smear their enemies in the future.
I would agree with you that Pacelli hated Nazism, if you confine the scope of your argument to the time Pacelli was Pope, but if you look into the time Pacelli was a Vatican politician, starting in the late 1910s, he seemed to like Hitler and the Nazis very well.
@@martinocelotl8326 That was before Hitler showed his true colors. Most people around the world thought he was good, until years later when he showed his true self. During that time, in the late 1910's, millions of Germans were starving and sadly Hitler was practically the only one feeding them with bread lines. When he began building up his military again, persecuting the Jews, and suppressing Catholics/protestants. He even specifically targeted Catholic clergy in Poland and other countries for extermination.
@@themessenger6688 In other words, yes he did support the Nazis and their plans to remove the Communists from power in Russia, and just about everything else that was detailed in Mein Kampf.
nonsense
Agreed Stronger terms such as "Utter Nonsense" or "Rubbish" would also be appropriate.
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Pope Pius XII did everything to oppose the Nazis and Hitler. He was a trained diplomate. Rabbi David G Dalin it the authority of "The Myth of Hitler's Pope" which exposes this myth and how he rescued thousands of Jews from the Nazis.
Who else turned Jewish people away during WWII?
USA
What you fail to realize is while he may not have mentioned them directly, what he wrote still allowed him to make the moves he did to save the Jewish population by insisting that the Germans had no right to to block the Church from speaking out on morality and anyone who was baptized Catholic was Catholic through this, Pius enabled the ability to "convert" most of the Jews enabling them to be safe, he also created a office to enable people to find lost relatives as a way of uniting Jewish
@Alchemist009 Did that work out better than during the Inquisition?
The Catholic church history is riddled with Saints and Martyrs who stood up for Christ's teaching, Pious took the save and easy way out. Sorry not Saint material in my eyes.
Rather die a martyr than actually help people, right?
She’s dressed in purple & scarlet
She’s adorned in gold, gemstones & pearls
She holds a golden cup
She rides the beast
She Fornicates With Kings
Woman was drunk on the blood
of the saints, the blood of the martyrs who testified for Christ.
The fourth speaker looks like the "My Pillow" the Trump supporter guy.
Have to say that Doino has unusually obnoxious delivery when speaking.
I don't think I've ever seen anyone so geeky!
Sanctimonious people condemning Pope Pius XII when their own governments and leaders DID NOTHING!!!
I love Jews because my Lord and Saviour himself is a Jew too. Love from Nokrek Garohills Meghalaya India.
Born of the Jews. Not a Jew
@@jaredstevens5382 A) That makes ZERO sense B) Have you actually read the new testament? You probably should before posting again.
@@rsr789 he is not inherently a Jew. He was born of the worst people who would crucify their Lord.
And I don't think we will be getting an answer to that one.
Great debate. I know that Pope Pius XII did everthing he could do. Looking back, we realize that he could probably could do more. The same applies to Roosevelt, Churchill, Stalin, and the rest of the world leaders.
But one things is certain: humandkind failed, and we shall pray for all victims of the Holocaust. For God there is no time-dimension, so a prayer now is as good as one during the war. We sall embrace actions to promote peace and better life for all.
It's not what he didn't do -- it's what he did: he fostered the Nazis from the early 1920s on until the war. But after 1939 the Vatican and the Nazis were no longer friends. Pacelli recognized that he personally bore some responsibility for creating the Nazi beast that later waged a genocide, but he was either too ashamed to admit it, or perhaps he erroneously thought he was protecting the Church by obfuscating this fact.
Churchill, FDR and the rest were not the Vicar of Christ on Earth, the successor of St. Peter, the Holy Father, Supreme Pontiff, Bishop of Rome. Those titles require a lot more of a man than President or Prime Minister. They require a commitment to moral truth, to the teaching of Christ -- a Jew who was unjustly murdered by the State for preaching what he thought was the truth. If Jesus had been around during WWII, he would surely have said "What you do to those Jews, Gypsies, and others, you do also to Me."
He hid Jews in his own home. And during his papacy, thousands of priests and bishops across Europe helped to hide and protect Jewish people from Hitler's regime. Even more so, the papacy itself, under Pius's command, was in league with the Germany resistance movement; the Germans that attempted to kill Hitler. Anyone who says that Pius did "nothing to help the Jews" can go to hell.
Stalin once asked the rhetorical question how many divisions the pope had. He wanted to emphasize that the pope was not a power he had to take into account. At least Stalin had a valid point to make. And it is always very convienient to point one's finger towards others. I remind everbody of the shameful result of the conference of Evian in 1938 when no country but the Dominican Republic was willing to take more Jewish refugees. They were all so sorry but they were just not able to do more for the Jews. The US congress expressedly voted against the acceptance of 14'000 jewish children. Of course there are many more exemples.
Geoffrey Robinson is a show pony; it's all about him
Seanynut, it's no wonder that you are so misinformed about the role of the Catholic Church in the holocaust. Maybe you can find somebody who can explain to you what "or" means, as in " given the fact that 98% of Germans were self professed Catholics OR other Christians at the time " .
For those who can read, Google "RCscandal" to find my very informative web site on this very important topic.
Self-professed does not equate being, friend.
“Whoever exalts race, or the people, or the State, or a particular form of State, or the depositories if power, or any other fundamental value of human community - however necessary and honorable be their functions in worldly things - whoever raises these functions above their standards value and digitized them to an idolatrous level; distorts and perverts an order of the world planned and created by God; he is far from the true faith in God and from the concept of life which that faith upholds. - Pius XIi. Here we can see Pius taking jabs at Hitler and the third reich who exalt race, the Germanic people, and the German state above all else. If you’re a Nazi catholic, then you’re a heretic, and are refused to be giving services of the sacrament.
@@eduardomartinez545 "Self-professed does not equate being, friend".....did he forget adding any particular religion over another?