Western liberal democracy would be wrong for China
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Filmed at the Emmanuel Centre on 7th November 2012.
Event info:
People everywhere are better off living in liberal democracy: that has been the reigning assumption of the western world. But could it be we've got it wrong? If you were one of the world's billions of poor peasants might you not be better off under a system dedicated to political stability and economic growth -- one that has lifted 400 million out of poverty -- rather than one preoccupied with human rights, the rule of law, and the chance to vote out unpopular rulers? Thanks to the Chinese model of government life expectancy in Shanghai is now higher than in New York.
So is China better off without democracy? Or is that just the age-old mantra of the tyrant? That's the clash of civilisations that played out on November 7th.
I'm only in my 20s but this is my humble opinion.
The real reason why western liberal democracy does not work for China is because western democracy is born out of the cultural history of Europe. It was shaped by the ideals of the Roman, Greeks, the Enlightenment thinkers. It taken into account what is most valuable to Europeans and many Westerners. But the Chinese don't value those principles the same way. The Chinese is more pragmatic when Westerners are more idealistic.
Let's take this debate as an example. The supportive argument for the Chinese government is based on how much (statistically) China has lifted its people out of poverty and raised the standard of living. That's what matter most to Chinese. However, the support for democracy here was based on emotions and unquantifiable attributes like freedom of speech and universal suffrage. Because that's what matter most to Westerners - individual rights.
The reason why Western liberal democracy is wrong for China because the Chinese people don't value the principles of democracy as much as they value the principle of communism. Chinese people form their views based on their cultural heritage, where it taught them that UNITY is the most important, more important than individualism.
Asking Chinese to adopt western democracy is as nonsensical to them as asking Westerners to adopt communism, it goes against everything they value. Of course freedom of speech and right to vote sound nice, but to the Chinese would ask themselves, nothing is for free. What do we have to trade for those nice stuff? Chinese will be looking at many Western countries for the answer to that question. And what do they see? The democracy that is in practice in many western countries are much uglier than the ideals they preached. Let's take the US for example. Ideally, its leaders should be voted for and serve the people, but what happened is that leaders are voted in to serve the interest of corporations. The corporations is allowed to privatized their profits and communized loss. If they mess up, the people will bail them out. And if they mess up the environments, the people will foot the bill. Secondly, the parties are busy fighting among each other and nothing get done. The same thing is happening in Britain and Europe.
Of course you can say I'm diverting from the main arguments, but that where we got it wrong. We like to discuss democracy in its ideal form, in the way that the Enlightenment thinkers envision democracy should be. But when we discuss Communist China, we talk about all that went wrong. The Chinese is looking at Democracy the way Westerners look at Communism, what went wrong and how it actually is like in practice. So instead of asking when or how the Chinese could adopt the western democracy, we should try to solve our problems first. We can look at China and say they have so many problems, but then the Chinese would look at us and see all our problems. Why would they let go what they have now just so they can inherit a new set of problems.
What would happen to China is that they will continue to develop their nation economically where their citizens are wealthy enough to think about democratic ideals, but they probably will not adopt the democracy that we seeing now but they will develop their own version of it, taking into account what the Chinese people value most.
I really enjoyed to read your comment. I would like give you many claps 👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏 and thank you🙏🙏🙏
Yes, I agree with you, you really have a deep insight than the debaters who against the motion.
Great comment and deep understanding.
A T , the flaw in your argument is that the rule of law is not a western cultural practice/ idea but rather a universal practice/idea. The rule of law applies not only to the people of a country, to obey the laws as imposed by the government, as the Chinese would have you believe. The rule of law applies not only to the people of a country but also to the government of a country. Laws being enforced by the court system within the country. The rule of law is practiced by Japan, South Korea, Singapore, Philippines, non of which are western cultures.
I agree, perhaps a form of Meritocratic Democracy would be more fitting for China's civilisation. Here in the west we only really have liberal democracy because it is seen as the least worst option. A quick look at the average western voter is enough to make you detest the concept of direct democracy. It will be interesting to see what form China's government will take. Authoritarianism doesn't really work in the kind of country that china is turning into. From what I can tell it will evolve into a unique chinese oligarchy or democracy with a hands off approach to governance, though I honestly don't know (and wouldn't be expected to, I'm looking at this situation from the other side of the planet in Europe). Regardless I do hope that the world continues to prosper.
Key question?
Did Anson Chan pushed for free election in Hong Kong for its elected leader under British rule?
No, as long as she enjoyed high position as chief secretary of a colonial power, a freely elected leader by Hong Kong citizens for Hong Kong was not important.
So, why flaunt your abundance of hypocrisy when you did nothing to talk about free election under British rule?
Was corruption rife in Hong Kong under British rule?
+Roger Wsy Did she push for it? You don't know. I would be cynical too if my government where your meritocracy. Ha does anyone really believe that a Chinese government official was elected on Merit. Does merit mean being clever and stabbing your opponents in the back maybe literally or bribing someone.
bribe and stabbing happens in democracy too.
she is a hypocrite............
+t de
"Does merit mean being clever and stabbing your opponents in the back maybe literally or bribing someone."
YES!
If that is what makes your province or your city more prosperous, that is literally what you do.
And I am not talking hypothetically: When it comes to China, corruption is NOT all bad.
@@tde1873 Western Liberal democracy is where selected and privileged people get a chance to run for office. Whether they win or not will depend on their maneuver and collaboration with the media. You don't need a proven track record to win. In fact, you only need about 30 -40 percent of the population to support you to win. A person who failed many business attempts but managed to swindle millions out of others can still become a President.
In China, you can argue that only the selected and privileged are given the chance to hold office. Only they get to prove their capabilities and move up the ladder. You only get to move up the ladder based off results though, you should see how well President Xi did with his cities and provinces before reaching the position he is in now.
7 years past, time is proving Weiwei and Matin is right,
It's right at sometime when evil CIA sponsored and planted spies to liberate HK from China
Well not really. Freedoms seem to decline since Xi.
@@pithikoulis The real freedom is criminals able to be extradited to foreign countries. That's freedom to impose correct law!!!.
@Johney Smith that is what happens when you have a megalomaniac who doesn't listen to the people. It happens with all dictatorships.
@@pithikoulis still living in the fantasy world? The violent mobs in HK is not peaceful at all.
"Tibet doesn't happen when you have democracy"
Native Americans and African Americans: "Are we a joke to you?"
Many westerners are harping about freedom of speech but do not realized they really don’t have one. A bad comment on yt is taken down all the time for example. The west don’t understand how the chinese view the ccp and why are platforms like FB or YT are banned. Most chinese view their ccp gov as their father or head of the family by heart due to recent successful track record. Regarding the ban of FB or YT, as I mentioned above, they can control what they want you to see which is dangerous for any country. No difference to why so many countries ban porns or etc. If a platform that can be used by the US to brainwash their people, why would any country allow it? Freedom comes with responsibility. Do you have the freedom to kill? Same thing
It's an unfair comparison, because Tibet had feudalistic society with slaves making the intervention way more humane compared to what US does.
When yourself are soaked in mud yet still pointing finger at the stains on others.
@@soyasuwabe7898 talking about the west? Thats absolutely accurate👍🏻
@@blardymunggas6884 100% correct. Westerners claim freedom of speech but can't even say the n word.
85 million Indians died of starvation under 3 famines in India under British rule because the British forced Indians to plant cash crops like opium, instead of their traditional food crops.
And forced the Opium on China with warships and troops.
Britain did some terrible things to other countries true. But it is comparable to what the communist party did to Chinese people. 三年大饑荒, "three years of famine") was a period in the People's Republic of China between the years 1959 and 1961 characterized by widespread famine. The policies of ruler Mao Zedong contributed to the famine, Estimates of deaths due to starvation range in the tens of millions.
@@alexflannders5681 good point
Martin Jacques is one smart dude. His closing comment is spot on.
So this is from 2012. It is now 2019. After the election in 2016, I wonder who thinks the American system works better than the Chinese meritocracy.
1. China is definitely not a meritocracy, even though the government tries to paint it's grip on power in these terms
2. American democracy is one of the most disfunctional democracies, worse than some African democracies so it shouldn't be the benchmark to measure democracy's virtues against
I do, the us economy rocks and China s economy is on the track to hell
anschiver China is as meritocracy as it can be. All government officers competed their way to the top. Even president Xi started as a village officer. By the time an officer enters the central government he would’ve already accumulated the experience of running a local government with population in the millions. Government recruit college students with tests exams and interviews and only select those with the highest performing ones. If that’s not meritocracy, I don’t know what is.
Considering China was ruled by the widely incompetent chairman Moa for 26 years. I don't think the election of Trump really proves much.
@小熊维尼 oh shut up.
I am a Chinese，I am a common Chinese citizen, and I want to express my views honestly here，My country has been divided too many times in history, and many lives die in each division，So I will never allow my country to split again，We will never change our one party system at present，Because multiparty system will bring about division，And we don't trust the U.S. government，Because the U.S. government always interferes in the internal affairs of other countries. If we become a multi-party system, the United States will certainly invade and interfere in our internal affairs. The U.S. government has always hoped that China will fall into chaos and division again，We know that Western governments are never friendly to China, so we will never change our system. We will continue to support our one party system，But one party system and multi-party system also have corruption，Some government officials are becoming corrupt and corrupt，The more local government, the more corruption，Fundamentally, what we need to learn from the west is how to stop these corrupt officials，We don't want to privatize something，If something is privatized, it will be very difficult for us poor people，We ordinary people trust our central government very much, because the national policy always aims at serving the people, and improves our infrastructure, and provides good services for our life safety，I have only one worry about our country，Some officials become corrupt when they gain power,They no longer think about the country and the people, they start to harm other officials，We have been stepping up efforts to crack down on these corrupt officials, but the more remote the officials are, the more corrupt they are，In the future, we will continue to fight against these corrupt officials，I think the western system has both disadvantages and advantages，Its advantage is that people can vote to replace these officials within a few years,The ideal of democracy is good, because everyone wants a just and competent government to lead the country and people forward，The disadvantage is that multi party system can compete for power and accuse each other of each other，This can easily lead to division and inefficient policies，The Western voting system can replace the president, but not the national policy，The gap between the rich and the poor is easy to increase，Whether it is our system or western system, I hope to learn the advantages of each other to make up for their shortcomings，Most importantly, the era of dogmatism in the Soviet Union and the United States has come to an end. Every country has the freedom to choose its own path, because no one is willing to follow the instructions of others. Everyone and the country are free
I agree that "stability" is of ultimate importance for China. But it gives no excuse for all 1.4 billion can only obey and listen to one party and one person ONLY. There are ways to keep China as one country and no other country can and dare to interfere China's internal affairs. An opening China exerts more weight in the world than a China that has been enclosing all of her people in a "wall".
No one in democratic Taiwan wants your Chinese Communist Party dictatorship and police state. You are lying to yourself!
@@johnyan836 You think there's much difference in the West with its two party systems? Both represent the same interests. Their purpose is to have the population divided in petty affairs, while the real rulers are the multinational corporations (no one votes for them). Their answer to economy is the same, austerity, debt, and salvatage of big investor pools when there's a crisis. Most of the countries that promote democracy didn't have open democracy until very recently, they have no saying in defining democracy.
Freedom of speech is a neologism for freedom of lobby, that's what journalists do (they represent the lobbists). I'm not saying full statism is good, but be aware of what the think tanks say, from all sides. All of them have an agenda, since they have to bring food on their table you understand? Someone pays for their salaries.
@@FlagggRandall
Winston Churchill once said: “democracy is the worst form of government - except for all the others that have been tried.”
Most people cannot accept that the entire country listen to only one party and the one party listen to one person only.
Democracy is the way human society should go, improving as we go.
@@johnyan836 I know what you mean, one party system has major issues, therefore, it's unsustainable, but you must understand that the foreign thinkers, or even nationals backed by foreign NGO's, that push Western democracy in China don't have the Chinese interests in mind, quite the contrary (westernization of China, destined to be once more the world sole superpower, was always an imperative as Kissinger said). It would be easy to subdue you with a multiparty system. This kind of changes must be natural and genuine, and must emerge from the 'heart' of the land, the people. The way of truly achieve this is hard of course, it's difficult to determine when a evolution of a political system is genuine you know.
If China adopts liberal democracy, China will be INDIA 2.
plus it will break apart due to wars. and tibet will be free
Karan Kumbhare bullshit
Bob Yin J hey sorry if hurt your sentiments, but chinese communist party itself says this. plus history of china certifies my comment.
Karan Kumbhare Tibet and Xinjiang maybe, but the core of China will probably stay together.
If the larger amount of citizens of Tibet wanna be free, them why not? Countries established to serve people, if people have no human rights in their own country, then why should they continually follow their government?
The old lady (former secretary of Hong Kong) is mixing up with her statements... some of them are outright incorrect while the rest are based on broad ideological assumptions rather than empirical evidence and specific facts. Weak argument against China's system.
makes her a perfect politician in the west
Remember UK and America growth was on the back of opium and slaves. This debt has never been paid to the victims. She is void of history and facts. Pure western talking head.
She is still mad that Beijing did not make her the Chief Executive of Hong Kong SAR.
@@massachusettes If you can assess google you'll know her father was a famous KMT general.
Joe zhifu no it was freer markets the agricultural and industrial revolution that created the wealth of the west particularly that of England and America. Spain, Portugal, had far more slaves in their colonies in the Caribbean as well as south and central America. The lasting wealth comes from price including the price of labor. There is no incentive to industrialize (invest in labor saving devices) if someone has already invested in slaves (see Ancient Greece and Rome). In fact slavery is common among nearly all civilizations throughout human history. China had slaves until as late as 1949. What was uncommon were the west’s freeing of markets and capital and the individual and even Romantic emphasis of the individual.
In fact the most vulnerable minority will always be the individual.
Its ironic that it takes a foreigner to understand China better than a chinese like Anson. Martin was furious about the nonsense Anson sprout. Utmost respect for Martin and Weiwei. They are so objective and rational in their analysis based on facts.
Teo Kanz anson has neither lived in the mainland nor the west, so many of her viewpoints are based on rumours and 2nd hand information.
Martin got quite worked up it was funny to see. Anson was just sprouting lots of heresay and the facts of her own reality. Glad martin came back and countered all her points with facts and real figures. Now i'm curious on what his original speech was going to be haha.
There is a say in china one monk fetch a pile of water two monk carry a pile of water three monk no water.
Anson is a chinese who was breed in a 7million population post british colony chinese city. Besides her life experience as a hongkong chinese, she didnt study china as much as martin.
Anson you talk through your ass hole. Why dont you lead for democracy while you were in there. Why Now ? You confirm A Traitor A Bitch If I May Address You.
People have to remember that western countries didn't become rich because of democracy and freedom of speech but rather colonisation of other countries for over 100 years or longer. Colonisation comes with lootings and stealing of resources and enslavement of their subjects which had contributed greatly to their wealth.
Another factor was the west had the edge and upper hand because they were the producers and manufacturers of the First Industrial Revolution, in which lots of the raw materials were also gotten from their colonies.
So to those people who still think China couldn't prosper further and sustain their wealth without western style democracy and freedom, you're totally ignorant of history and facts.
just out of curiosity:
1. Why didn't Anson Chan directly answer the question from the man with the orange sweater? (the question was: "I assume you reached your powerful position without being voted in by a single Hong Kong resident. Why do you think the UK thought it was wrong for Hong Kong to have liberal democracy, even the last governor Chris Patten was imposed upon you, was that a mistake?") Obviously the 'powerful position' refers to the position of Chief Secretary, which is the second most powerful position in British Hong Kong, rather than the position of member in the legislative council.
2. I don't like her tone of speaking, which reminds me of some real dictator. To me, she was there more like criticizing the current Chinese system rather than providing insights about the motion itself.
Sorry nobody answered you for last 3 years. Anson Chan reached the position of power just like all the other previous British governors that ruled Hong Kong - by appointment. Yes, when unelected, undemocratic appointment of a Hong Kong governor is advantages for the West, it is called democracy.
Her fxxking answer and excuse was that " I'm a civil servant" ha ha ha. The Queen liked her hair do!!!
o0o0o o0o0o Anson Chan was a slave of Chris P, and she was appointed by her master. She doesn’t bother to think why her master now give her freedom while he is on his way out of Hong Kong. What a pity and ugly women!
She is just a western parrot. Ignore her.
I think she answered it by transforming the definition of democracy in her own way instead of giving one man one vote.
Martin and Wei Wei has my vote.
Trust! Is a wish to wish back upon ourselves.
Vote of ISIS?
@@superpooper_2030 On what basis did you make that comment? US has created ISIS indirectly by starting the civil war of Syria to try screwing Russia. I guess US has shot a bullet into its own foot that's for sure.
@Manna Tech t
Martin was in Tien An Men in 1989. No other comments
Majority chinese people still thought Chinese political system was the best until the end of sino-Japan war in 1895. Then Chinese started to search a better political system. Constitutional monarchy failed, constitutional republic failed and then communism failed. The party is named as CCP doesn't mean it is a communist party, it just reflects its history and it is not the right time to change its name.
Instead of purely replicating western political system, now Chinese prefer to looking more into our own history and culture. Chinese people need a government like a leader instead of a servant, and I suppose most westerners cannot understand it, however it can be reflected from Chinese family relations.
I understand how hard it is for westerners to understand Chinese history and culture, cuz most of them just can't read Chinese. Only read second-hand materials can't help you to gain a full picture of China, really. China is far more diverse than any westerners could imagine and this made the rulers of Ming and Qing dynasty to mainly focus on stability instead of productivity which led to the backwardness of China.
同胞你好Your explanation is very good, but I think they do not understand us. becauseWestern are not us, they do not know our culture, it will not recognize our political system
李逍遥 average westerner only try to understand china system from their understanding of their own western system.
akin to
trying to understand Buddhism from their point view of Christianity.
well said. but some western ignorants will say u are used to be slave of the government. :D
No country can live totally under a democratic system! It's impossible! The true nature of people is to be selfish, self-centered, greedy and immoral! Communism is only a name that was used to describe the attitude NECESSARY to overcome the selfish, excessive, democratic harm! Just look at the USA now!!! We are in the grips of sexual perversion, violent media and music, abortions by the millions, dependency on pills, for happiness and survival! But,, in China,, they are absolutely in a much better condition, overall!!! Fact!!! I've been to China twice, for a month at a time,, and I never felt safer, happier, and even lost some weight, not that I am overweight, but ate healthier than I could in the states! I love my home town, but,, sadly,, sex, violence, greed, and indifference are what runs the country now! Be honest with yourselves,, America needs some strong changes in order to survive!
Sonny Cannon i always think this kind of debate is meaningless. cos the cold war is over. fighting each other in the name of each others' ideology is stupid and hypocritical. they are both good ideas. and ppl who founded them intended to make life better. but when politician take over. some of them did well like in US, UK, Germany etc. but there are still plenty examples failed and are failing right now as well.
karl max did not tell how to build up government and run economy in reality, he did not say it should look like ussr or china either. every country is facing their own problems which need to be dealt with unique methods.
anyway it is always good to stop fighting in the name of ideology. just sit down and look at each other and self. if someone else has something worthy learning then u take it and apply it in ur own country in ur own way.
just like china did 30 years before, it make economy reform and began to build market economy. but the government still make some regulation and general direction and offer some huge state investment.
but sadly the mind cold war is still going. us keeps bashing china in the name of democracy and human rights even using some stupid monk like dalai lama, it seems china did not say anything similar in case of snowden and assange.
still dalai lama is not comparable to snowden and assange. he is really just a silly monk.
While I was born in China and lived there for a few years, and travelled to China during summer vacation one time, I spent most of my days in the USA. My mother travelled to China twice, perhaps, and my father three times? Anyway, every time he went to China, he would visit his old hometown in the rural countryside. His rural relatives still lived together, but instead of in a village, they were lined up alongside the road, house by house. They told my father that they built the houses themselves, and my father was very impressed by the construction. It was a 2-story building. The rural relatives would still farm, but as you know, that would take a lot of time, so they would go to the city to make spare change and pocket money.
Just so you know, it's not that they don't have any rights in the city. It's just that they are not registered in the city. They are registered to the town in which they live, not the big nearby city.
Nothing wrong with Farmers without them a country will starve.
Now a day, people is dying to get registering in village, lol
Obooo
Bo
Anson Chen said children of migrate workers do not have access to education, this is absolutely false! All young people are mandated to receive 9 years of school no matter rich or poor.
Lewis What you said is the paper words, but Anson Chan is right, the children have to left home with their grand parents because they don’t have the city resident card.
@@maxcheng6303 Anson Chan is saying the situation right, but chose to ignore the whole truth and reason behind it. Just like most western media when reporting Chinese related issues, they don't lie, but just don't tell the whole truth. If you are migrate worker from country town to city, with no stability of job and less than ideal living conditions would you bring you young children along with you, when they can actually have comfort at their home with care by trustworthy family members? Resident card is a factor, but Chinese people are very family orientated. All their hard works are to bring a better life for their children. So they would work hard and living in discomfort environment, as long as they can make more money to send their kids for better educations. And resident card is not only apply limitations for migrate worker, but for everyone living in China. for a massive population like China, there isn't any better way to managing and maintaining life standard for majority of the society. The paper words you refers to is actually happening in China. pretty much all kids even they lives at the mountain with very limited access to the outside world, still getting proper educations for up to 9 years.
Not only that, even if what she claimed were true, she's described something that happens in every democratic country on the planet. Under Obama, more people get deported under his regime than any other president before and since. In the UK, people born in the UK to immigrants were being deported to their parent's home countries.
there's no debate, Weiwei and martin killed it in every perspective possible. You have my vote gentlemen.
@Eugene Wong You can easily notice that the audience was pre-determined with certain opinions. I have to say anything relating to the politics will be just a show for both sides. At least, in 2012, they can hold this show in front of these European audiences when the anti-China atmosphere was high enough. If this would be held again today, emmmm, actually there is no need for this debate today.
@Eugene Wong lol, the vote by the neighborhood about the debate of if ur dad cooks or ur mom..
The irony of proudly posting your vote against voting ...
www.britannica.com/biography/Sun-Yat-sen
You don’t have a say, your voice doesn’t matter, why even speak up Cadillac?
In America, you can change political parties but you can't change policies. In China, you cannot change the party but you can change policies. - Eric X. Li
So what. either way, we will vote the com party. they are the best opt. And we r trust Xi,N we r proud of having him as our leader
@@michaelwumol 建议你先好好理解这句话，也建议你看看Eric Li的视频。
@@huapengsui939 有推荐吗？麻烦发个链接
@@michaelwumol th-cam.com/play/PLtRl9z3wAYMjAC7yHGWKHhbiPH4vHsXYx.html
TH-cam搜Eric Li，很容易就出来啊
@@huapengsui939 Great speech! Thank you!
1:28:09 Martin Jacques hit the nail on the head. As an ethnic Chinese who grew up in a Western country, I have clashed with my parents countless times over differences of value. Their ways of thinking and seeing the world were incomprehensible to someone like me who was fed liberal western values my whole life through the education system and media. I believed the Western system to be superior, however as I got older and saw the problems faced by Western democracies (particularly the US), my views shifted. I finally I am coming to understand my parents point of view, even if I don't agree with them. The two systems are fundamentally incompatible as Western society puts the individual first and Eastern society puts the collective first (the nation is just the family "writ large" as Margin Jacques so eloquently put it), which explains why Chinese people, despite internal disagreements, are so eager to unite to repel any foreign interference in their affairs, as well as the rising nationalism in recent years - which I believe is in reaction to the increasingly hostile anti-China narratives being peddled by Western media and governments. Regardless, I think East and West can and must learn to co-exist and co-operate in a globalized world and work together to solve problems that affect all of our futures.
Also I want to add to Jacques' point about the Chinese concept nation being equivalent to a large family. In fact, the Chinese word for "country" is 国家 which literally translates to "nation family". The character 国 translates to a physical "country" or "nation" and the character 家 translates to "family" or "home" (in Chinese it is the same concept). This is just one example that reflects the vast differences in thinking and conceptualising the world between China and the West.
In 21st century we need to extend national concept of family to that of the humanity, and accept the fact that "world is but one country and mankind its citizens" so a new a novel way of governance need to be invented.
China has always been a class society. With Emperor's, Military and the peasants. China has never known Democracy other than in Hong Kong and Taiwan. So, it cannot speak on what it has never known. Any comment to the contrary would be made completely in ignorance. Hong Kong and Taiwan has demonstrated that Democracy would flourish in China.
@@mikecamacho1934 It depends on how one defines democracy and if there are enough support for any of those definitions.
This simplified version of country 国 doesn't convey much about the nation 國 which has a boundary 囗, military 戈, people 口and land _.
@ mikecamacho1934 China does not claim it’s a democratic country doesn’t mean people don’t know what is democracy. Your comment is very naive and ignorant, under mind that vast population of Chinese that knows nothing better. Look back in history, the Chinese has not once twice over thrown its government, not to mention fought against the western invaders. The Chinese have the courage and intelligence to fight what is good for them. If you go to China, you’ll be surprised to learn that people hate foreign interference and would not interested in tell other nations what to do.
Ms. Chan is a representative of HK but not China. I'm sorry to say that but the truth is she dose not respect people from mainland and she does not know us at all. Facing so much negative news in EU about China, I once asked my grandparents if they are happy with the government. The answer was absolutely Yes! My grandma was even crying for that as she can live without starvation and having a good life. Whenever someone said You don't have democracy! You are under suppression!... I'm very much annoyed! If so, how can I stand here and talk to you about all the issues!?..Just drop a visit to China! It's a thriving country and it'll be prosperous in its own way: remarkably and peacefully!!
you are Stupid. you should cry for me. Anson Chan is *evil* and it is stated in the Council of Foreign Relations CFR.ORG, that the best option for China is to elect Anson Chan as Chief executive of HK.
I no longer care. Just do not reply me in the future...Please.
漢武神 she cant become hk governor despite she is pro british and think that herself as white lady.
eiji kenji Ms. Anson Chan does not represent Hong Kong. Just another Colonial educated ( trained!! ) civil servant.
The United States and the West in general fear the rise of China because white people have been on top for 500 years. Even during the Cold War it was white people vs. white people.
It's a little like how China fears the rise of India now - another gigantic nation that could ally with its enemies and threaten it.
I agree that the fears about China are overblown. Nobody wants a war, everyone wants prosperity. However, I DO think that mainland China could have avoided 30 years of horror, including starvation, and been even farther ahead now if Chiang Kai-Shek had won the civil war. He would have started with capitalist reforms right away, in alliance with the United States and not against it for 30 years like Mao was.
Given the fact that most people in the audience are western people, martin and wei wei can still got so many support, I think they already win.
@Ron Lim US Trump in 2019 situation = INEQUALITY, INJUSTICE, NEPOTISM, ELITISM, LEGITIMATIZED SELF-ENTITLEMENTS, CORRUPTION IN HIGH PLACES, ABUSE OF MONEY (PROSPERITY), POWERS, POLITICS. !
@Ron Lim I thought yall democratic
@@dbrzy8989 Singapore is technically a democracy but 99% of the opposition parties are complete trash. Vote for the party where most of the country's elites gravitate towards, or vote for the populist parties run by hysterical loud-mouthed morons. Obvious choice.
@Ron Lim "Public service has become a profession" - Yes, like with every fucking developed country including America. Corruption in high places could potentially occur everywhere in the world, including the Western powers with democratic processes. There's just no evidence as yet. There's also no evidence for corruption among the Singapore government. So why the fuck would you claim corruption in Singapore when there is no evidence, when you could just as easily claim the same with every fucking country in the world? It makes no sense. You're similar to the moron Roy Ngerng who makes a lot of claims and has nothing to back up his claims.
Inequality - Name one developed country that doesn't have inequality. Even the openly communist state N Korea has inequality.
Injustice - Every fucking country has some measure of that.
Nepotism - Every fucking country has some measure of that.
Elitism - Every fucking country. In fact, why is elitism bad? If you're good and skilled at what you do, you are successful. If you are garbage, you are not successful. That's it. That's literally all it takes to succeed in Singapore. Work hard and don't be shit. Perhaps you would like to be reborn as a Malay with bumiputera privileges and be born in Malaysia, because you can probably get by being lazy and a shitter.
Legitimatized self-entitlements - What the fuck does that even mean? Legalized self-entitlement? By whom? Good job, you used a 5 syllable word, you must feel so intelligent now.
Abuse of money - ??? Are you claiming that the government is stealing from the people? If you are, doesn't that already come under "corruption"? You write like some college kid trying to hit your word quota for your assignment.
Powers - ??? Meritocracy has led to powers?
Politics - ??? Meritocracy has led to politics? Are you a fucking retard? Maybe not, but you are clearly a bottom feeder.
No money no talk - Yes, in every fucking country in the world including Singapore. Unless you live in a piece of shit country where you trade with daughters and camels. Then it's no camels no talk.
i didn't believe this kind of perspective until 1 months ago when i saw what happened in hongkong. if people are way too huge and many of them aren't smart enough, the democracy is a tool to disturb a society which was stable, safe and rich.
that's why the virus are coming as they can not be silenced!
that's called popularsm, if not ochlocracy...
Hong Kong has been Safe, Stable, and Rich someting to be envied by the entire world. The reason things have been chaotic lately is the CCPs doing.
When i hear that the authoritative rule is the correct system for the Chinese people is that the Chinese people are like children who must be told what to think and believe like this lady says
@@henrytoledo4103 I agree, jesus you're the only reasonable person I've seen in this comment section, almost all people here praise dictatorship
@@henrytoledo4103 Chinese people are not as brainwashed as you think. They see many problems with CCP, but believe that the pros outweigh the cons. About the issue of HK: the reason why HK is in chaos is because of violent protests by (mostly) native students in HK, not CCP. They were literally setting people on fire.
🎉🎉10 years from now! I am watching this again 10 years later!
I find it ironical that Anson Chan, when answering to the question of Hong Kong's non-democratic status during British colonial rule by stating that she was chosen on her qualifications and merits, was actually validating the CCPs form of government.
The CCPs method of choosing statesmen is structurally complex and based on objective factors, such as economic growth of cities, provinces, etc... (hence why they focus on it so much). It is definitely not a process under which some compulsive lier who filed for bankruptcy multiple times and raped numerous women would succeed in becoming President. Now his government is responsible for the numerous deaths of COVID-19 that the US is going to have, and answers with modern piracy, stealing medical equipment bought by other countries.
Anson Chan's talk made my stomach turn. I found it dishonest, in that it did not approach anything realistic and just attempted to convey as universal truths ideas that are specific to (some) westerners. It's vague and demagogic.
And last but not least: That that one woman at the end "spoke on behalf of the entire room" that the debate had been won, without even hearing the opinions of everyone else (let's remember that democracy means choice of all, not of the majority) and is applauded, shows that the British have a very opportunistic understanding of the ideas of democracy. Hell... history shows that.
Have a look at the video called "Is China an alternative to Western democracy?". Zhang Weiwei predicted that if American did not reform its political system, they would have a president worse than George W Bush. He was right.
The answer to her behaviour is simple: she is hypocritical!!! The so-called western democracy is hypocritical!!! And double standards. When George W bush sent the army to invade iraq and killed almost the population of the whole country, there was never any democratic elements inside out.........
Yep, she won the debate by the vote from the westerns in the room, but like weiwei saying: the facts will telling what is truth. like 30 past years facts does.
@@lilychen5143 LOL, and we get to see it again this year! Hell yeah, biggest show of 2020! Let's rock in the wave of identity politics!
In my view, she contradicted herself with almost every new sentence she spoke.
"It is not sustainable how their approach to the economy..."
"I agree China will be the largest economy by 2030..."
"It is not sustainable..."
It also amazes me that after that very old man claimed that China is jailing people for things they say, but what kind of government would do that and NOT jail people for "taking back their lands", as he claimed later?
Also, I really wish someone challenged him on his claim about Tiananmen Square as well as Tibet. There are western journalists who were there for the protests that published the same report as what he was claiming the Chinese were "brainwashed" into believing about what happened.
As for Tibet. He said that every Chinese should be ashamed. Tibet was a Feudal region. The people were serfs who had NO rights. The ones selected to work for the monasteries were slaves. Their women were forced into sexual relationships by the "lords"... In fact, the Dalai Lama was a very recent role, despite the western media making it seem like a centuries-old tradition. The lords are the ones with direct influence over the kid selected to become the Dalai Lama, which they use to their benefit. While the Dalai Lama does live like a king, he has no real power. Not to mention that when China took Tibet, they offered the lords the region to continue ruling over, under the "one China, Two System" policy but they decided to side with the US/CIA instead, fearing that China will take their power someday. The CIA took Dalai Lama loyalists to the US, in North Carolina, by the CIA to be trained in guerilla warfare (what we call "terrorism" today). That group carried out many acts of terrorism against the former serfs in Tibet that were liberated by the PLA.
Finally. I know this debate was at least 9 years ago. I would certainly love to see that Hong Kong woman's face on how wrong she was about China's development. Also, we all now know that the NED/CIA has been funding the opposition and separatist groups in Hong Kong from before that time. It wouldn't surprise me if she was one of those involved in those groups and their events.
Facts: 1. In China today, you don't get sent to jail saying stuff even as a university professor in a class. Recently I heard an elaborate, detailed description and comment about what happened in Tian'anmen Square in 1989 in a lecture. I'm in a university in Beijing. Nothing happened to my teacher, and this wasn't the first time he'd said something like this. 2. To many, the Communist Party is famous for its propaganda, but inside the Party, if you've ever participated in an internal seminar, you'll know how the Party members criticize everything about the Party. There are many truly concerned thinkers in the Party, who are bringing the Party ahead.
Edward 1
Good to know Edward
Agreed
@Ron Lim any article references?
when Anson chan appointed as the leader she said she have the potential , when other person but not her appointed the leader, then it began not democracy. why UK can appoint the governor of HK, then comes to China it becomes not democracy. whe she didn't ask the question to the UK Government?
the only problem is she failed to become the Chief executive of HK, which maks she so angry, and her ideals changed totally.
ah, explains a lot
Anson Chan didn't seem to mind being a second class citizen under the British rule because the British governor had taken good care of her. That is freedom. She misses that.
A bullet train network, no guns, universal health care, free education
versus
the ability to criticise the government?
I'll take the trains, safety, health & education.
Anson makes a point as valid as a growing up adolescent arguing on own liberty his/her parents. Martin, on the contrary, states a view as wise as a matured man retrospecting on his all past experience.
Anson Chan and immediate family members speak fluent English. How is that 2 millions protesters' cannot write a single protest card in English ? All are in Chinese characters. Americans and Brits love to come to help you fight China, but they dont know your demands...Stupid Idiots
Democracy. From the PEOPLES. By the PEOPLES. For the PEOPLES. Where please?
Not even in UK. THE Upper class and The Super Richest are in power especially in Law, Very Expensive Money is in power in the West. Hypocrisy and Pretenders. The Super Richest Are in Power in THE WEST
Anson Chan argued that the income disparity is increasing between country side and urban areas. China has been aware of this, so recently China has increased the land supply in under-developed areas, but not urban areas. The purpose is to move the people back to rural areas that are undergoing massive development.
She also argued that China's growth would decline because it was not able to create local consumption. She was extremely shortsighted, because China has already announced that future economic growth would be led by local consumption.
She saw the problems (like many others could), but didn't expect that China could solve the problems.
On the other hand, Martin, in another speech in 2012 addressing an audience's question on what China should deal with aging population, predicted that China would give up the one child policy. This has really happened recently.
So, in terms of politics, who is an expert and who is a newbie is very clear.
No offense, Anson is clearly out of touch with reality or from another world. Sometimes I wonder if she just only really like the sound of her own voice, this midget banana. She strikes me as one of these typical blood sucking employees whose only justification to be hired in their job is to sit in these management meetings to pick holes in peoples ideas without really contributing at all to the solution. As the Chinese says "Cheat rice to eat":) She models her physical outlook on Maggie Thatcher with that 6 inch afro but obviously lack the substance of her character. You can just say she got lucky living of someone else's money to allow her to waffle on as though she is an intellect. The only way she can earn my respect is if she gets of her 3200 feet pedestal and help pick up some of the bricks thrown by a HK protestor. And only if she is hit by a brick will I shed a few tears...maybe but it will be crocodiles ones, nevertheless I can never compete with her fakeness no matter how hard I try. BTW I feel I am already very restrained in my comments;) Peace to all and may God have mercy on this little Chihuahua.
A case of China's 'country mouse & city mouse.' China's urbanised city has attracted these people from the village to seek a better livelihood but only suffer more than they expected.
@@greaterbayareahero1401 She likes to bash China because she knows the white people she seeks validation from love hearing it and might even invite her to a potluck she wouldn't normally be invited to if she brought their favorite dumplings and entertained them with self deprecating Asian jokes.
@@dunzhen How a pathetic figure such as her becomes arrogant in front fellow Chinese is a mystery to me.
@@qindu4120 there's a bunch of Asians, not just Chinese, that are embarrassed of their own peoples and culture, not knowing anything about it. They might "kind of" like it as an exotic feature to seek attention from racist white people. The more anglicized, westernized these Asian diaspora become, the more self hating and naive about the world they become. All facts
And I feel sad for a small group of Hongkong people who have got the Stockholm Syndrome and are eager to show loyalties to their British master. The British colonists never gave Hongkong people democracy and they dared not speak a word of it and just showed their obedience over 100 years. After returning to their motherland and ending the humiliating colonisation period of time, they just felt superior to ordinary Chinese because they were proud that they were once the servants of the Great Britain. What an irony. Rather than feeling proud of their homeland growing stronger and more powerful and getting real benefits from it, they would pursue the recognition from the west. Western democracy is not the optimal system and every country should find the way that suits them the best based on different cultural and historical backgrounds.
You wouldn't know what a Fucking master is, even if one Bitch slapped you with an article 51 condemning you to a working party in a brigade at a reeducation camp. Then again your more than likely a party member who sent hundreds to reeducation camps aren't you! Comrade!
I feel sorry for you for accepting rule under a dictatorship and living in fear of the Chinese Communist Party.
@@bobbarkeriii2597 You are laughable, man... I hope you will travel to China one day and see for your own sake. In your mind, the Chinese are brainwashed and are living in fear. This, while comfortable to believe in for the west, is unfortunately not true. But oh well, you've made up your mind.
@@vincenttheo8841 Your laugh is rather high-pitched; the laugh of a nervous man. You know that your fellow citizens are spying on you, and you on them, because that's how it is when you live in an authoritarian state with no rule of law. Have a nice day, Theo.
@@vincenttheo8841 Yes, the U.S. military did terrible things in the Middle East. I agree with you. However, after 9/11, none of the five million Muslims in the USA was put into "internment camps" like the Uighers have suffered in your dictatorial state, which does not have rule of law.
Looking at this debate 10 years later, the answer may have become clear.
Churchill once said that "democracy (Western-style democracy) is indeed not a good thing, but it is indeed the best system that can be found so far." But as far as China is concerned, the elite political system currently adopted by China is indeed the best system that China can find so far, which is determined by Chinese history and culture.
The United States and the Western world are keen to talk about China's lack of democracy and human rights, and the Chinese are oppressed. If China is like this, how can China become the most dynamic economy in the world? Before the new crown epidemic, 120 million people traveled abroad every year, contributing 200 billion U.S. dollars in tourism consumption to the world every year? Why is totalitarian and unfree China's GDP six times that of democratic India? Why is the United States so unconfident in the face of a rising China today?
China's development over the past 40 years proves that the path China is taking is correct and conforms to China's actual situation. In the past 10 years, the Chinese have seen the decline or stagnation of the United States and the Western world, the chaos of democracy in the West, and the wanton destruction of globalization by the United States for its own self-interest. . . .
The Western world keeps promoting the so-called Western-style democracy to China. Its purpose is to expect that one day the two political parties in China will continue to fight each other, thereby hindering the development of the entire country. This is very evil and China will never fall into this trap.
21:30, why did she even dare to mention the UK's rise? It was the blood of the slaves and people in the colonies that helped nurture the UK's prosperity. That's not something to brag about. There must be something very wrong when she used this as a positive example. Yes, technology played a role, but look at how competitive the UK in today's world, you will know what benefited the UK most.
Many westerners are harping about freedom of speech but do not realized they really don’t have one. A bad comment on yt is taken down all the time for example. The west don’t understand how the chinese view the ccp and why are platforms like FB or YT are banned. Most chinese view their ccp gov as their father or head of the family by heart due to recent successful track record. Regarding the ban of FB or YT, as I mentioned above, they can control what they want you to see which is dangerous for any country. No difference to why so many countries ban porns or etc. If a platform that can be used by the US to brainwash their people, why would any country allow it? Freedom comes with responsibility. Do you have the freedom to kill? Same thing
Eric Li always does this thing where the counters Western criticism of China with actual facts about Western culture. One of my favorites was when he said that America has only had a "one person, one vote democracy" for sixty years (Civil Rights Act)
@@blardymunggas6884 A lot of words to say that China is a dictatorship. You have no idea what pluralism, democracy or freedom of speech are. It is jot the same as banning porn. 🤣
She is not only on Chinese government’s black list for banned to entry China but also was physical abused and publicly humiliated on the streets by people who pro-CCP, the reason she was abused was she had criticise Chinese government wrong doing. On the other hand, however Zhang weiwei are freely travelling to all western countries which he criticise about and without receiving any abuses and entry bans. So which one of their views are real and more represents justice and truth?🤔🤔🤔
Stop talking rubbish
Too many mistakes in the Hong Kong lady’s speech
too many mistakes in the americans speech too.
Hong kong ppl have no nationsl identity nor do they have a political view or experience with it.
For 155 years they never had democracy, it was only when the handover did the brits loosen up on them. This was so to make it hard for China to handle.
Bullshit. You are a communist and a liar. She did a great job.
@@dbrzy8989 just because hong kong didn't have democracy for 155 years doesn't mean they shouldn't get it now. You are making the same type of arguments that the likes of Yuan shikai made in the early 20th century, saying that China should not be a republic because it has already been ruled by emperors
@@TheJoineryCo. You have fallen into the whirlpool of ideology. Besides calling them communists, a word most feared and disgusted by all westerners, what else can you say?
Anson speaks greatly but useless! For China, first to deal with reduction poverty, then social progress, then government transition... Everyone knows Democracy is beautiful, but it is not a master key and that is why you are not leader and you never suffer starvations
Anson is a selfish leader and does not help the poor in reality. Strip her of her wealth and see if she still stands for liberal democracy. As one says what good if you have access to go to Ritz if you cannot afford high tea there?
If democracy is so great, then why there a civil war in USA in 1860? The confederate states voted to breakaway in a democratic voting but war was impose by the Union? Why was their choice not respected?
Wei Wei is there to discuss ideas, Anson is there to moral grandstand against a fictional cartoon character using corporate euphemisms
They all "moralise." They just have different values.
Ya honestly they r all intelligent scholars with different ideologies and they all know what they r doing.
@@alexkhoo7828 The so-called "failure" of US democracy does not justify the failure of democracy. The real democracy has always been linked to equal access to knowledge and information, as well as a fair system of health-care and voting. The US has failed it in many ways. But that doesn't mean democracy is a bad idea. As a Chinese citizen, I definitely hope my voice or other people's voices to be heard by the government, while voting is an excellent way to execute it. The financial prosperity of some big cities and their citizens is one of the phases towards democracy. Still, it can't hide other burdens existing within the society which are preventing the mobility of the social classes.
@@missourichifilayyy4311 It is not right that "voting is an excellent way to execute it". It is probably true for an election among ten people, but i think it may be wrong for a country with such a large population like china. Also, you did actually vote, but the result of voting may not be good. Most people argue that we can easily revote for a new president in western countries, but does it naturally come out with a better president? Doubt it. I mean the right to vote is good, but it does not naturally lead to good results.
@@missourichifilayyy4311 not quiet. Martin and Weiwei are scholars. Weiwei was also a translator and diplomat. Anson by contrast was an unelected autocrat who ruled second in command by hand selection from the queen to run the imperialist government in Hong Kong.
obviously, Weiwei and Martin won the debate
Martin is a wise man with enriched understanding of history. I hope everyone should listen to him the our world can live harmony together.
Reason is that the westerns don't know Chinese peope and they take communist party governing too seriously.
@@johnxie9837 what does "take communist party governing too seriously" even mean?
Other things aside, the tone of Anson Chan discomforts me, full of comtempt. This is a panel discussion, not a persecution.
That is why the Arabs keep women OUT of their politics.
The Anson Chans of this world think they are so smart; they are in contempt of anyone who is less articulated.
Leo Mike
exactly!
Now you know she is a Chinese traitor, she has worked with American gov and British government for years! That is why she would say it, why she is so happy to say that China won't growth! So clear now
I have the same feeling. She looked down on everyone. She was Chinese herself but she had white supremacy in mind. Typical banana.
Who won the argument is pointless. Who can bring the food to the table is the only point that matters. By all account, judging at this time, China not following anyone doctrine and not having a fixed doctrine is the right doctrine. On another hand, liberalism has evolved into a 1-god religion in the US world. All the academics are conditioned to worship and to be fearful of the 1-god.
Martin was spot on in his speech! Kudos to him for understanding the history n culture of China!
Martin is an apologist for the organ-stealing CCP. If they're genuinely popular - let them have an election.
Martin understood China better than Anson Chan does.
If anything the video shows how exactly western democracy won’t work period. All I see is people voting out of fear and moral hijacking. This only works on the poorly informed population which UK and US have a lot. China should continue focusing on lifting people out of illiteracy, so that they can think independently under pressure.
West does not want you to have democracy and progress, they want you to have populism and chaos.
"poorly informed population" - the CCP killed more Chinese than the Japanese ever did. You mainland Chinese are brainwashed automatons.
edydon So what? those “murders” are either 90 years old or dead or in jail. Where were you when my family was robbed by the communists of land and wealth, made to kneel down and humiliated tortured in front of the whole village everyday? Where were you? We were the victims of the dark ages, but we fought through and barely survived. And you use our own misfortune to judge us? Now you want us to disrupt our own country just when things are finally looking up? As you enjoy the grace of fortune from your western master? Do you have any shame? Look at you lot, all you do is repeating what the west fantasised about the extreme communism, we fucking lived through it. Our hate for separatists such as yourself is so deep your brainwashed mind can’t even begin to comprehend. But I guarantee, your life is gonna be hell very soon for what you have done to my country :)
Wow, I'm impressed with the contents and insights that Martin delivered!
Contents like that are not voiced in the West, even till today - almost 8 years after the debate.
@@tboyz6442 west doubt china has no feedom of speech and now you say Martin's contents are not seen in west, sort of ironic.
dicks ,shsuld of finished the job me thinks
India is a good example, compared with China
Why is no one talking about the fact that Anson Chan was from a wealthy family from Shanghai and her grandfather was a Kuomintang General, and how she and her family fled mainland to Hong Kong because their side lost the civil war. This isn't a debate this is just her spousing her ideology, nothing researched or prepared just emotions.
Martin Jacques is so right about westerners can't understand Chinese value and opinions, because they always judging base on their western core value and experience. They need to realise China has such a long history, which brings totally different core value compare to west. There is no right or wrong, but people need to respect different way of living and social choices.
Has western Liberal Democracy worked for all the wester countries or worked at all? It is still debatable. Democracy shouldn't have only 1 method, the western method. China can also implementing democracy base on their own core value and culture, and it takes time.
200 years ago western countries knocked off Barries of Asia with firepowers and opium. Pillage enormous amount of wealth and resources to support their own industrial revolution and growth. Now, it seems they want to bring China down once again by using something called "liberal democracy".
the Chinese revolution that overthrow the imperial china, was made by comunism values?
1a
That's the idea a rising China is a no no to the west led hegemonic world order something that has worked they want to remove shows where they realy stands
As a Black American I'm currently in debt wt student loans, my job isn't paying me enough to buy a home, my rent is over 3/4 of months pay and I don't have enough money saved for emergency. My Chinese counter part, has a home and savings, a job wt raising pay, enough time for Vacation and a government that will move mountains to keep him happy. Ive never had a vacation and if I question my government they attempt to avoid the citizens. One man has all the freedoms, the other has an idea of freedom.
Most of China lives in 3rd world conditions. GDP is high, but income per citizen is comparable to many African countries. In fact many African countries have better income per citizen than China. You couldnt be more wrong.
Has all the freedoms? You cant be serious.
@@adonizi Have you been to China? How wrong could you be when Chinese government takes care of it's people with affordable medical and social programs. Of course there are still remote areas with poor people. However these people are not homeless or staving because they are assisted by local government. I advise you to visit China to see the incredible transformation of cities and countryside. Unless you're too poor and only rely on American propaganda, no one can help you to raise your awareness on the real China experience. Perhaps you should check out foreign visitors blog on TH-cam to get an unbiased opinion.
@@adonizi “扶贫” get out of poverty is always the theme of our government, they are keep doing it,and did very well.
Does he think its ok to beat stray dogs to death for restaurant food?
I feel disguiting about freedom fighter like Anson Chan, they only bark allday about so called human right. but do nothing helpful on development of country and solving the poverty. And she forgets also, before Hongkong back to China ,she was second-class citizen in Hongkong..
Under her, a lot lives in cages... they still live in cages.
nonsense. you mainland Chinese all sound the same. All you can do is call HK people colonials and you have NO IDEA of the freedoms that existed under colonial era HK. If life in HK wasn't so great under the British, Chinese from Maoist China wouldn't have swam their in the thousands to escape the starvation and deprivations under the Great Leap Forward and Cultural Revolution. Hong Kong people were NOT second class citizens under the British. You need to read some history books not published by the Chinese Communist Party.
@@junsu21 Were HK'ers allowed to work in upper management positions during the British?
junsu21 Were HK ppl allowed to protest and to work as government officials during the colonial times?
Hahaha.. I felt ashamed having to watch one of the descendants of our kind, standing there giving ideas of insults after insults of her own ancestral family. If this Chinese lady feels that her preference is Western Democracy, then the most ideal homeland is in a Western Nation. It’s a shame to hear that the Chinese lady making shrewd criticisms about her own Chinese culture. I felt so embarrassed that Mr Martin J. seems to know much much better about China and has so much Respect for Chinese culture than this lady who is a Chinese descendant by origin. Jonathan has his own opinion about the China he knew while he was there back then years ago. That’s understandable for his kind of experience at that era. However then, we cannot keep living in the past.. China has made such a drastic leap n progress that has amazed the entire world. I do hope all of us must understand that This kind of success isn’t achieved overnight after being humiliated for lengthy period of time. That’s why US is trying to do everything in their power to hinder China’s Rising power. Why’s that so? Also I cannot understand why Western world feels so threatened by the Rise of China? I thought Westerners always talk about Human Rights, then why the western world needs to worry so much about Rising of China. Why suddenly the White Nations keep condemning China? All of a sudden, the term “Human Rights” has gone disappeared? No obligation should be expected of China to become a democratic nation. China has never intrude into any other nation’s internal political issues. Therefore please do not do this to China. Also Johnathan talked about Freedom of open comments of disagreement or dissatisfaction in publicity without fear of being jailed when Democracy is concerned. Excuse me… what happened to those African Americans in US, have they any rights to express their reasons in front of the police?
Nothing to hide.
Westerners and Japanese, all they want to see is China Fall. They simply wants China Fall. They don’t wants to see one day Rules the world. Because this is from Racial Superiority Complex mentality. That’s why they can’t accept China Raising. This is nightmare for then. I see this kind of debate many times. Not like Prof. J Martin , he is very fare and pure western research Scholar without bias. Mr.Johnson Mirky is still staying with his own Ideology and old Brain.
@@NightnDay402 agree in full. 😄🙏
This woman is full of nonsense!
hahaha, but HongKong people really buy that shit
Not me!
Mc Yeung it is ok. everyone has their own views. as long as they dont start a chaos, it is fine to be a dissent
you bet!
she knows nothing about developing economy, but repeat the so called political correctness..She may forget, that she is second level people before 1997
After 8 years,time prove everything.
This video already published 7 years ago and Anson Chan she is still alive .. I think God wanted her to live long enough to see how wrong and prejudices she was ..
Zhida Pang She never cares about that part. She has UK passport and HK identity which mean everything to her already.
Anson speeches a full of hatred. HK already bankrupted without mainland China support.
@@budiherlambang7434 without mainland support?
What's that? By "support" do you mean when Chinese mainland tourists leave big-stinking-scatological 'gifts' anywhere or everywhere in public...?
Or perhaps you mean when the CCP conspires, undermines, subverts, obfuscates, corrupts, cheats, extorts, hacks, spies, assassinates, represses, lies, propagandizes, deceives, tortures, thieves, triad-eds(lol), street brawls, bribes, censors, poisons, burns, threatens, and organ harvests it's way to "support" Hong Kong?
Yeah, How dare she think the Chinese People should be able to choose who runs their Country ? Disgusting !
@@HauntedXXXPancake Yeah, look at US! They chose a clown, and get a circus! I want a circus!
As a Chinese American who is in China now for a visit, I am listening to this debate through vpn, otherwise I won’t be able to access TH-cam. I think for a person who has never lived a live of individual freedom and personal privacy in their whole life, a good economic living is more important than anything else. But once one has experienced a free and fear-free living, the individual freedom is equally important as the economic wellness, if not more important.
Even America is censoring information, blocking Chinese apps like Tik tok and Huawei etc, its not different from what China is doing yet you call that American democracy superior
从来没有过个人自由个人隐私…我想知道什么程度的自由和隐私才是您口中的真正的自由？完全我行我素吗？那吸毒和贩毒在美国就不应该犯法，毕竟每个人都有完全的自由，凭什么要政府来帮我界定？我承认中国的自由程度不及美国，但是完全没有自由？
@@bull7173 加拿大吸毒好像是合法化了。
I am for Weiwei and Martin.
I am a Chinese Singaporean and I follow on CNN,BBC and China news everyday on cable. I think I know China better than a Caucasian ,if you are.Transparency won't take place overnight.Btw, China has been very transparent these few years ,especially on military affairs. I believe as they get more and more confident , they will become more democratic, though not the Western style of democracy.They have already progress this far ;they will go back to the old years.This is common sense.
First thing you should do is drop the CNN, BBC left wing/woke propaganda channels. I suggest you'll get a better source from CNA.
It's interesting to view this debate 7 years later after it was delivered.
I was a fervent protestor during the Tiananmen Square, in the U.S. Only now I found many other side of the story, that I was ever aware of. I now understand there were a lot of riots during that time not by the students not the other factions in the society, including the violence against the soldiers. I just watched the part of the video of the "tank man" who was just led away by other citizens and was never arrested or killed. Furthermore, with Russia as an example, had the students won there probably no more China as a country.
Of course there would have been a China, just not one that would have been a Communist China; probably a China more like Taiwan but with an economy trying to catch up.
@@robertmiller2173 If you understand a bit more on Chinese history, then you see it can easily become fragmented with countless war lords. When there was no external influence China will eventually consolidate to one empire, thanks to the Chinese characters (written language). But since modern time, especially the 20th century, you can be rest assured that all these war lords will be infiltrated by different foreign interests. There was the real possibility that there would be no China, without the powerful central government in control. I just cannot believe all these Xinjiang human right, Hong Kong freedom, Taiwan interest, Tibet independent issues raised by the West are truly due to their concerns for the people there. There are so many more places much worse yet they have to pick just China for all these accusations.
The tanks were leaving the square when the tank man blocked them. It was shown on CNN news
I think there will always be a China, I hope so at least. But a Different China, sort of a mixture of Hong Kong, China and Taiwan. A more open China, a China that is still proud but proud about the right things to be proud about if you follow me.
@@robertmiller2173 I don't know how much you truly know about Hong Kong, or Taiwan, or China. I assume what you referred to is a more Western form of open society. I used to believe that. But reading Chinese history, seeing how Hong Kong and Taiwan are like, I am not convinced anymore. I don't know if you understand Mandarin. If so you will have a better understanding.
It's now 2020, about the post-pandemic era. The resilience and rebounce of the economy will prove what kind of politics is more competitive, at least more fit for China. Shame on Anson Chan. She was still indulged in her past pride playing as a colonial civil servant. Listen to Marin, the factual data and observation, if you want to stay competent.
Martin is very intelligent and has remarkable insight
Martin predicted China would overtake USA economically by 2018.
HE WAS WRONG!!!
China did it by 2014. 😂
Give a speech on what you want China to be, not what you don't want it to be.
Well, now in 2016, let's see if Anson Chan was right about the Middle East. Also, Hong Kong in the 70's and 80's had less democracy under British rule; where was Ms Chan during that period?
2019: Bunch of commies on this channel? She was right about the Arab Spring and middle east.
Yes where was Martin Lee during that period?
Pretty sure Britain was threatened by China to not give HK democracy.
@@venmis137 That's not even the case, the british only attempted to give hker democracy LITERALLY about few years before handing back it to china. British have a century of giving it democracy but no, so stop speaking for them.
@@venmis137 Brits had a track record of leaving a mess behind before leaving its colonies.
56:20 man says "i don't think an authoritarian regime such as China is fundamentally ill equipped to prevent a repetition of such a catastrophe"
2020: COVID-19.
*looks at the so called western liberal democracies. lol
"Western liberal democracies" are more prepared for, not combating the pandemic, but distracting the general public with name-callings and politicizing COVID. Western politicians: "Let's all blame China so we don't have to address the real issue here!" Ain't that right?
Its nicknamed Wuhan virus for a reason . Are Taiwan and New Zealand, which have lower cases than China, considered as those western liberal democracies that you are referring to?
@@harryfeng7231 There is something called population & land mass. Take population by land mass and calculate it. By the way it's not Wuhan it's Illuminati(NWO)virus. And for your kind information I'm not 50 cent army,I dislike China for several reasons but let's talk practically.
Update: it's from a Chinese lab
@@trolllovindaddy Unfounded accusations are called slanders
Just to quickly point out two counter points to Anson Chan's arguments:
1. Western imperialists have indeed overthrown authoritarian dictators around the world under the cover of democracy and freedom. She forgot to mention that they were replaced by more brutal, US-aligned dictators. She also forgot to mention all those democratic governments that her beloved freedom fighters toppled to install their pet regimes.
2. Unlike the Western imperialists who are committing genocides in the Middle East and Latin America to rob their resources, China doesn't need to spend a ton of money on military to practice diplomacy and friendship.
But the Chinese do spend a ton of money on there military and also practice very unethical practice of targeting poor countries with loan/debt scams
@@JDmix123 China's defense budget is less than 1/3 of the US, and the US has invaded China, raped its women, killed its people, and burned down its palace. Much of China's defense budget is to protect itself from US and NATO aggression. You are shaming the victim here.
@@quadroeffects9316 the Chinese budget is ever growing and is the second largest in the world easily I might add. You can accept these facts or not. China rapes and kills its own people so IF America was doing that I’m sure the CCP wouldn’t care it gives them more organs to harvest
@@JDmix123 Why do you think China is increasing it’s defense budget? Does it have anything to do with the US’ increase of defense budget? Between the two, only one of them is bombing 7 countries.
I’d love to see some evidence of your claim about China doing all those things to their own people. Maybe you confused China with India.
How does China target poor countries with debt scam? Are you stop peddling the debt trap diplomacy nonsense? Do you even know how much those poor countries benefited from China’s low to no interest loans which are often forgiven? For example, China builds water treatment plants destroyed by the US bombings in Iraq. Without them, Iraqis had to rely on one water treatment plant which was falling apart.
Unlike the Western regimes that only build primitive infrastructure to extract resources from those countries with high interest loans, which often result in austerities, China modernizes their permanent infrastructure to make them self sufficient, and no longer serve as vassal states to the West. This is why the West are indoctrinating people like to believe that China is bad for helping those countries get out of poverty.
@@quadroeffects9316 because they want to expand the military power control and influence amongst the world and especially there Asian neighbors.
Leadership vs. Showmanship. End of argument.
Just feel pointless from adson chan. She just used many tiny facts to represent the whole.
lol, we have the same first name, wonder what yours are in characters
Martin did his research not Anson
Martin’s prediction was extremely correct!
What he prediction ?
Martin predicted that western "democracy" would be no good for China. Now we can see it is no good for middle east countries either. actually China has its own"China democracy". Maybe it is good for western countries.
@@paull8558 well every country has its own style that fit with your country ...
References from a Gen Z who has been binging Intelligence Squared, in order of appearance:
3:42 Zhang WeiWei (Senior Fellow at the Chungiu Institute, Author of The China Wave: the Rise of a Civilisational State, and former translator to Deng Xiaoping)
17:19 Anson Chan (Former Chief Secretary of Hong Kong, Campaigner for democracy)
30:50 Martin Jacques (Author of When Ching Rules the World, visiting senior research fellow at LSE, visiting professor at Tsinghua Uni, Bejing)
chan said she wants china economic grow equelly shared????? hong kong people would eager to see that in their 30 square meter home
I agree with both you and Anson Chan.
Housing prices in Hong Kong are much more expensive than those in second-tier cities in China. If they feel that 30 square meters are very crowded, they can sell this 30-square-meter house. If you go to the corresponding area in a second-tier city in China, you may be able to replace it with a 90-square-meter house.
Hong Kong’s economic development is one of the top cities in China. If economic growth is shared equally, Hong Kong people living in a 30-square-meter house may have to share 15 square meters. Anson Chen will probably share 95% of his fortune.
gosh I have to skip Anson's answers. All yelling no fact.
ANSON CHAN DOES NOT KNOW HISTORY
She does what her masters told to her.
On the contrary, Hong Kong has played a very important economic part for China. The political system is totally different from China. When China is extremely poor with gross poverty and limited foods are issued by 'vouchers'
per family. Hence, Communism must be the answer for China.
she is even not a Chinese
She is self centred, power hungry..when you are poor and hungry you don’t care about freedom of speech or universal suffrage you just want food on the table and a roof above your head... China has delivered that... lifted millions and millions of people out of poverty and that matters!! Anson is just a dog led by the nose...
She knows nothing apart from condemning China
1:23:00 As a Chinese youth, I have a lot of respect to those young people on the Tiananmen Square in 1989, I truely believe that they want this country to get better, but also I'm glad they didn't success, I have no idea what China could be, or our life could be today if they successed, and also Deng Xiaoping is very much respected in China, he is the one who shaped the morden China today, not those idealist youth, also I had been in Lasha for 7 months in 2005, can visit Tibet easily nowdays, I believe most Tibetan have enjoyed a better life, normal people are not so interested in politics as we are on youtube, they are more concern about the living standard.
Your lives could have been like opium days under the British rule
Because in the past 70 years, most people with political interests or involvement were killed or silenced. The average Chinese people experienced horrific systematic behavior controlling and brainwashing.
@@joycem5967 Funny
It’s 2020, I hope time does tell you something.
How come HK under the British rule until recently, never complained about lack of "democracy" and were happy to be a colony in all its glory? This BS hypocrisy is killing me.
ForMySon Isn’t it because many feel they have more rights and freedom as a British colony than it does now as part of China?
Imperial Guard No they didn't. They lived under colonial rule with no rights to choose who governed them and how. It's about expectation, especially when you know your rights. HK people had as much rights as Indians did under the British rule. It's this double standard which I have issues with.
Deng's reform allowed part of the population to get rich first and it succeeded beyond expectation. President Xi's Chinese dreams is moving the nation to the goal of all Chinese can share the accumulated wealth of the nation and with that also come greater freedom. The REPUBLIC is moving forward on the right track.
As an overseas Chinese, personally I think the advantage of one party is that they take ownership of their decisions, good or bad. I don’t think it’s a bad thing if people regard CCP as their parents, who would not trust their parents and know that the parents only have their best interests in mind and will be there for them all the time. With Western democracy, yes, you can vote, but do you really have any choices? Nobody will take real ownership. The elected party can always blame their predecessors for any mistakes and leave a mess for the next government. Nobody can hold them accountable for mistakes. And there is no long term plan and no consistency in policies when government changes.
I vote for Martin and WW.
Jonathan Mirsky was disgusting. He did not know anything. But Anson's behaviour revealed he was her idol.
He lies in a debate.. he can not search Taiwan or dalailama on internet? Is he too old to use internet?
Hi Anson, for your info, citizens in China are very happy and confident in what China is today. China is reforming and is improving and getting better by the years. What's your problem if they are all happy? You have a problem and agenda?
Capitalism can not thrive were there is peace...
@@ofentsekekana2599 You misspelled Communism.
Anson Chan somehow believed and equated western democracy with equality, human dignity for all! Those are just ideals rarely achieved by governments most of the time thru modern history.
Wei Wei presenting facts and numbers, vs Anson barking on ideologies. The arrogance Anson showed in her speech is so unconvincing that she cared about the well-being of ppl in China
I am sure that if Western style democracy is suited to the China, the Chinese will pragmatically choose to adopt it by their own choosing but not at the imposition from the Western counterparts.
If banana trees can grow in Siberia, I'm sure people would like to plant some in the tundra. Likewise, feel free to raise polar bear in the rain forests. "Will a certain political system be successful in a certain country?" To answer this question, no one can just assume that there exists a universal solution or even a set of solutions.
@@davedeng2295 Obviouly many in the West think liberal democracy is a panacea and some would even “help” other nations to reach that.
Suddenly they care about democracy in China why Don they do t go to Saudi Arabia about that their problem is China style of government is too good because it bring stability and protection to is resources by the state so they want to put democracy on China to stunt it growth.and progress by interfering in China and funding opposition parties that suit the west interest and then they would allow American cooperation to go in and plunder china's resources and make it poor again don't trust westerner even though they talk about democracy but won't let countries choose their own leaders look at their track record at regime change in the developing countries
Democracy always leads to ruin when the masses realize they can vote to themselves benefits.
Voting to self-benefit isn't much issue. Issue becomes when a populist leader emerges who convinces majority than minority is responsbile for your problems.
"Democracy would be wrong for China." Democracy is not the best system in the West either.
SHAME ON YOU! Anson Chan. 2008 Sichuan earthquake was about level 8 magnitude, how could u claim the buildings cracked down by the disaster as 'Shoddy'. You boost your argument by misinterpreting a natural catastrophe in which many souls lost.
To be fair, the 2008 natural catastrophe did expose a weakness in the building code in earthquake-prone zones of China prior to that - i.e., there was not enough emphasis on having a code where buildings need to be earthquake-resistant to a sufficiently high magnitude (no doubt a result of lack of economic resources in the early days of reform & opening up). However, the narrative should be one of China needing to catch up with international best standards, not of "shoddy buildings killing lives" - the implication being that it was the "corrupt" CCP which allowed lives to be lost. There we see a subtle, BUT important difference, between pointing fingers and blaming everything on the regime VS. seeing the problem for what it was and figuring out what the authorities and country as a whole could do to prevent or alleviate future tragedies.
Leadership vs Showmanship
Common good vs Identity Politics
Martin and Wei Wei have my vote.
Now is 2022, where is Anson Chan?
quarantined from covis pandemic
Is personal freedom as advocated by the against motion more important that lifting the mass of China’s population out of poverty?
Fact n Friction of Democracy for the Demonstrators is being FOOL by the west ideologies
Doesn't matter what China does, they will be hated.
Your population is out of control - China limits han majority to 1 child. That's abuse of human rights.
China should open its market - China is a polluter.
Foreign companies invests in China and start business - said government of those foreign business' say again human rights violation while earning record profits
There has to be an enemy of the United States of America. World peace can never be obtained as that will hurt business. The US Congress unanimously approves human rights bill for Hong Kong and still sells military equipment to Saudi Arabia who killed their journalist and ignoring the fact that flint Michigan still doesn't have safe drinking water. Americans are paying 300% or more than median prices for life saving medications. All of those issues yet they can quickly pass legislation to interfer on behalf of Hong Kong citizens. That sounds great, but when does Hong Kong citizens become a priority over your own citizens?
@@cbcluckyii4042 Just the way the Politics behave Busy body (Kaypo).
Kindly take Care of your own country
@@wilftan2571 Write better English to be taken seriously
Why do you think personal freedom can not coexist with development. Such a narrow view.
One simple question : "is the freedom of speech much more important than the economic welfare?", look at the United State today, even a president could talk whatever (politely not to say lie ) he like
But that's not what people mean by free speech...
I think a lot of Chinese people think that free speech is shouting abuse and getting away with it.
I can't speak for America because I am European. But free speech allows you to have different views without the fear of being arrested or detained.
In Europe:
- You CAN'T just say what you want to say. You can't organise people to hurt other people, to incite hate, or to slander.
But you CAN
- hold your own views on government, social policy, feelings of unfairness.
Also, of course economics is an essential component of any system. But what will all the money in the world mean, when your government can do whatever they want with impunity. Where you have no say about whether your situation is dire or not.
Free speech and freedom of press allows us room to breath and to call out the government when they do wrong.
But agree with you, Trump is destroying the meaning of free speech.
If you actually look what he is doing he is:
- destroying the legitimacy of the press
- curtailing rights for others to speak
- inciting anger and hate amongst groups
So we need to use our free speech and free press to destroy such despotic rulers in order to hold them accountable.
Apollo rui thanks for your nice comments, but my point is nothing is perfect, anything will have its positives and negatives, a wiseman should make the judgement which one to choose, and it should be the most positive one and less negative. China is quite a special country which has the most population in this world, if people there are all allowed to have “freedom” of speech, as what you mentioned above like to criticize the government, then please look at Hongkong, what has happened there, especially so many other countries which have lot of interest there, provocating to fight for “freedom” (fyi... Hongkong is ranked at least in the top 5 of the world to have the most freedom), and Hongkong economy is badly affected, for sure people will be suffering, so which one to choose?
@@Kenziehans Appreciate the fact that we can have a calm debate 🤝
Yes agree that free speech can be used to lead people to violence. And I think everyone around the world is horrified by some of the things some protesters are doing in HK and America.
But the main problems with HK isn't just that they have free speech, but that they are looking at what goes on in China and are afraid that they will become them.
The Chinese people are also a bit fed up I think of the government constantly censoring their activities. In China, we could not have this debate because a lot of these words are censored.
I had many friends on Wechat who were outraged when Li Wenliang died, and was forced by the police to not spread rumours.
Also it saddens me when many Chinese people are looking the other way when their government is putting many Xinjiang Uyghers in camps. I've had Chinese people laugh and think it's funny. But it's worrying and sad.
Hong Kongers are fighting because they fear their free speech will be taken away.
I like the way they talk about taiwan and Hong Kong as a model of success, that's just so hilarious. If they can make Singapore a example, I think that would be more convincing, but they won't, cause the west society hates the Singapore government too.
Yes, listen to what the late Minister Mentor LKY said at a forum in 1992 at HKU...and right in the face of Chris Patten!
Well, Anson’s had read the political ground correctly against Martin’s view that indeed Hong Kong is still waiting for the universal suffrage to materialize ! It’s now 2019 two years after 2017 !
You think the west/western society hates Singapore? Why?
Lets not forget that Taiwan and South Korea were far from “liberal democratic” States upon their creation and decades following.
They only started to implement and make “liberal democratic” institutional changes once their economies were strong and sufficient enough and provided overwhelming economic and national prosperity.
People don’t give a shit, and political change cannot occur anywhere until there is economic power and prosperity within a State and in the eyes of the people.
LKY would have stayed within Malaysia if Singapore was not kicked out by the Melayu dominated federation. The success of Singapore is thanks to the hard work and hard discipline. You think discipline can be achieved without strong fist government ? Singapore looks like a democracy liberal country, but the fact is it's not.
It’s 2021. Watching this debate is amazing. Looking forward to watch is again on 2031. I would say as a Chinese, Looking back 10 years, huge positive changes happened. Very optimistic for the next 10 years.
48:35
Lair, all through my education and from others I know, the Tian'anmen incidents were never a topic, it's simply not a thing we consider worth taking our time to study some hardcore math, physics, chemistry and so on! Let alone what you say, it was taught!
I only found out the whole after living in Europe, and it's nasty of the "leaders" who promised to fight till the end but fled to US leaving the most naive brainwashed colleague kids to suffer backward consequences due to the riot, when you compare both sides.
Lastly, we don't talk about it or teach about it simply because we think the century of humiliation is much more important to remember, and math, physics, chemistry and our own ancient culture are far more worth our time!!!
emmm are you sure about what you are saying... at least it is contradict with my personal experience. Tiananmen event is NEVER taught and NEVER appears on any published books in China, and I myself, at least, do not talk about it beacuse it is not allowed on the internet in China, my post will be deleted instantly if it include the 'sensitive word' such as '4th of June' or 'Tiananmen event'.
Btw, Although I have a PhD degree, I personally do not believe hardcore math and physics and so on are more important than the pursuit of freedom and equality.
@@阿柴-r6h You should read from the lines "the Tian'anmen incidents were never a topic, it's simply not a thing we consider worth taking our time to study some hardcore math, physics, chemistry and so on!"
I said the Tianmen event was and is not considered a thing to be taught, just like the white house suppress in the 30s!!!
As a PhD, you can have your view and whatever, that is yours. Do not put upon others for what you don't like. But it also means do not put upon others for what you think is good either.
As a person, a human being, not a PhD or whatever it is you are trying to elaborate, I have my own freedom, and so do you. My freedom is to make a better life and be free from traps of capital means of production. Not like yours... I will get far surpass what you want when I reach my goal.
BTW, I don't believe in any CIA backed 'freedom'.
@@Floatian you used 'we' and I used 'I myself' so dont blame me to put my views upon others.
@@阿柴-r6h Yes we, the people I know of and hold the same concepts. If you are just trying to pick from words, go ahead.
And BTW, you are not included, just to clarify.
@@阿柴-r6h The report of the 89 incident is on the Chinese government website，Anyone can check it at any time......It was a color revolution against China, The Chinese government successfully stopped it, On this premise, China has today's prosperity, This is fortunate.
The time voted for Martin and We I We I.
I am watching this on April 2, 2020. After seeing the “freedom” of Hong Kong middle to late 2019 expressing “ human right” and America dealing with Covid-19. It is clear who is the winner. Martin Well done, love your speech the best. Weiwei, love your speech too.
He talked about State competence, and that is going to be a new world focus after this Covid-19 pandemic.
Did you think that way in february aswell? Every country had shortcomings in response to the pandemic; in fact, the country with the best response, far better tan china, has been taiwan: a liberal democracy.
I dont even think china should adopt liberal democracy. But to take this pandemic as an example to support the current chinese system in contrast to democracy is unscientific to say the least.
@@peorakef Taiwan is part of China and had more time to react to the outbreak, whereas mainland China had less time to react (plus mainland China has larger population than Taiwan)
Li Hua Taiwan is not a country recognized by United Nations, and it now only has diplomatic relations with about 10 countries. Taiwan has the result now is because of following reasons. First, the growing hatred towards PRC in Taiwan makes the population mobility between two places was already minimized before the epidemic was started. Second, Taiwan’s data transparency is arguable since there are a few outbreaks happening in Taiwan army reported these days but the infected number can’t show that. Even just look at the infection rate, there are still many countries that have lower rate than Taiwan. Therefor, this is not only unscientific but also ridiculous to claim that Taiwan is doing the best on dealing with the epidemic and the achievement is related to its political system. Also, the authenticity of Taiwan’s liberal democracy is questionable since the President Cai’s election is accused of fraud.
The United nations is a joke, what's your point? The ROC is independent from the PRC, it has control over the island of Taiwan &c. and it doesn't oppress its people. If you like it or not, it is a country by definition, and you actually have implicitly admitted that in your comment! That's a good start.
"growing hatred towards PRC" can you produce evidence to back this claim up? As an onlooker from outside, I don't see the ROC threaten war and say things like 武统，do you? If I look on weibo comments about taiwan, if thats not hatred what is it? If you look at comment sections on twitter, you think the Chinese from Taiwan display more hatred than the Chinese from the Mainland? If so, back it up by rational arguments. I really wanna hear.
Provide proof for the army outbreaks that are not shown in the data? Or is it a news report from the PRC? Unlike the PRC, the ROC has never needed to revise its numbers. If you remember, the PRC on a national level has corrected its numbers at least three times already. If you remember, when Hubei was reported clean and opened its borders, Jiujiang police blockaded Hubei travellers. Why you think that is? PRC police doesn't trust the PRC numbers, but you do?
Talking about who's dealing good with the pandemic, the infection rate is a very bad identifier. Are you saying because a country like Togo has a lower infection rate than the PRC therefore they reacted better? Suppose a country doesn't test at all, reported infection rate will be 0%. Does that mean they reacted best? ROC had direct flights to Wuhan, unlike most other countries. In the end of December already, CDC in Taipei boarded flights from Wuhan for checks on the basis on intelligence. Did CDC in Beijing do the same? In shanghai? In Guangzhou? Taiwan is much more exposed to the PRC than most other countries in the world by flow of people. I invite you, if, as you believe, Taiwan is a province of the PRC, calculate the numbers, which province has the best ratio? Please tell me your result. I did it already, in my calculations, Taiwan did much better than any other Chinese province. Prove me wrong.
I know it hurts your feelings, but best reaction scientifically has been South Korea and Taiwan. I'm sorry.
You said my claim was "ridiculous". Given my explanation above, which I invite you to refute logically, excuse me asking, but are you even a scientist? If not, please refrain from making scientific claims. You are not making yourself appear in a bright light I'm afraid.
Also, you implied that I tied its success on its political system. Which I clearly did not. You can read my comment again and follow my logical reasoning, what I did was merely refute the claim that freedom and human rights (which I don't support in the western sense of the word) have done badly in the face of the pandemic. They clearly did not in ROK and ROC, which is nowhere to say that their success was because of their political system. You did not understand my argument. It's basic logic.
"accused of fraud" umm OK, now what? I know taiwan is accused of a lot by a certain country's media, the problem is, can they also back it up with evidence? If I remember correctly they also said the virus came from a lab in the USA, now they say its impossible to have come out of a lab in China, because the virus shows no genetic indication of coming out of a lab. Can you understand this logic? I know people are sad when another candidate wins, but that's how Liberal democracy works, a system foreign to the PRC and therefore not easy to understand. I remind you, not long ago taiwan had elected a certain Ma Ying-jeou two times, the reason why they elected Tsai twice now is 100% due to the hostile behaviour shown from the PRC. I'm sorry again if I hurt your feelings again. In any case, the election was less of a fraud compared to the "election" of Xi Jinping. While we're at it, I could now, as you know, also list a lot of things he and the PRC are "accused of". Is that scientific? No. Does it make sense without evidence? No. Would it make myself look clever? Clearly not.
I don't know which sources of information you have, but they don't seem to be very sophisticated are they. You can use TH-cam now, and also much more on the internet. There's no excuse anymore for blindly believing anything out there that suits your personal feelings.
(Note for people new to the subject: PRC=people's republic of china, ROC=republic of china, ROK=republic if korea)
I just found this talk! Been wishing there’s a talk like this for a long time. There is NO one size fits all form of governance. Wish America can be more tolerant and accepting of how other countries organize their societies. It is NOT just HOW a country is governed it is the OUTCOME that counts eventually. Hopefully we all agree the wellbeing of the largest number of citizens should be a desirable outcome.
The NSDAP would agree with you.
@Charles Howie "The NSDAP would agree with you." Yep! Also Stalin, Pol Pot, or my former "beloved leader" (iubitul conducător), Ceaușescu, would agree with that. CCP Chairman Mao Zedong, a very intelligent and charismatic Chinese ruler (not), put into early graves 3.5% of China's population with his Great Leap Forward. Does that mean the rest of the population got a slice of well-being? No, they starved too, just not to death. You see, KaiMay Terry, when you think in terms of "wellbeing of the largest number of citizens" your individual self becomes statistics unless you're at the top of the food chain. There is a reason most sane people don't like dictatorships, even if we're talking about the "dictatorship of the proletariat". Because that proletariat would automatically organize in a hierarchy having one rule: the top dog is the meanest dog. It doesn't matter if the top dog would send his pups to universities, nobody wants to lose his privileges, so the social system remains and it doesn't become a true meritocracy.
Authoritarianism and dictatorship rests in suppression of open criticism and thus suppresses the very mechanism that knowledge is gained via conjecture and falsification. Authoritarianism is thus objectively bad and will fail to solve the inevitable problems of the future for which it suppressed the means of generating the knowledge to solve via the suppression of free speech and open criticism.
Ah yes! No one size fits all. Don't compare anywhere. Be naive, because then no one will call you names. Maybe you need to be a bit more skeptical and willing to be called names . Taiwan, a Chinese polity is richer , more democratic and more given to rule of law than any CITY in China, in spite of it's mixed-bag past and the fact that the mainland has been threatening them for 70 years.. So was Hong Kong. So is Singapore. All without forced "reeducation" of minorities. The reality for say Tibet is that while the land has resources and political / military importance, its people and their don't actually count . 7 million Tibetans versus 1400 million everywhere else. Just a few eggs to crack "for the wellbeing of the largest number of citizens" . Do you know what "cracking a few eggs to make an omelette argument" , actually looked like in Stalin's Ukraine? In Mao's China? But don't judge . Look the other way and don't have an opinion.
@@J0s5p8 India, Philippines, South Africa, Kenya, Dominican Republic, Ukraine, Moldova etc. all of them are way poorer than China in pretty much every measure. Wanna guess all these countries have in common? They're all democratic states. What you and I just did is called nitpicking, we can all nitpick only countries that support our opinions, but that won't change the fact that those opinions are load of crap
Asking an irrelevant question to large group of foreign audiences is plainly a waste of time. Whether it is right or wrong is up to the citizen of the subject matter to decide, not any outsiders.
Chinese people not in the CCP are outsiders in their own country.
China is undergoing a series of changes right now in a direction that is influenced by democracy. I would say that please give it some time and then it will prove that this political body will work at least for this stage of development of China. For those westerners and other anti-commie who strike about Chinese politics, I wonder how this would bother them. In my opinion, even if democracy was applied in China, Chinese would still try to work their way to become the richest country in size in the world and they would also defend what belongs to them. What's wrong for a country to goals like these? In democracy Chinese people would demand the same thing, but they might achieve the goals inefficiently.
Just because you westerners were once the most powerful ones, so now you get to envy, judge and suppress the other countries that's rising up like a kid? Stop looking China and the other developing country in this way and try to embrace and learn from changes please, because that's what we have been doing for the last 30 years.
you said very nice
Suijin Mo well said, as I have mentioned as well in other video, China has been changing, bit by bit and adopting as it sees fit.
Having viewed this video 5 years ago and now watching it again feels so different. I think many of the arguments from both sides have been given a report card by facts that have come to pass. The whole debate has a stipulation that western democracy is the best form of government and it's China's short sighted-ness for not recognizing it. A better question to ask is: Is western democracy the best model for everyone? Can the world have more than one form of government, in other words, pluralism, that is good and well for the people.
Agree that pluralism is beneficial.
But if China is to adopt a different system, just let it be fair for everyone.
Economics are great and have lead to prosperity for a lot of Chinese.
But we are living in a different age, and we need to ensure that this pluralism doesn't compromise:
- finding the truth through free speech
- equality for all rather than a few
- the government being accountable by the people
In modern day China, the population are led to believe that it's OK to let the state dictate and censor the information.
It's OK to censor the words of Li Wenliang, because they believe in "not disturbing the peace".
It's ok to lock up 1.5 million Muslims because they "might cause an offence".
But this is wrong, and should be stopped not encouraged.
I don't think the CCP needs to be overthrown, but why can't the CCP exist but promote free values:
Can't they allow free press, stop the censorship and stop arbitration?
How do you feel now in light of what Covid-19 has been doing to the human race in the whole world.
@@Arui-cg4pu You argument that you want china to share its wealth fairly or equally. That is exactly what china is doing under socialism type government. You should understand the principles underlying communism or socialism type of Government versus the democratic capitalist type. Socialism is about collective benefit of wealth while capitalism is about individual wealth at the expense of the common wealth for all. You don't leave anyone behind
Agreed. I used to be pro capitalism, but seeing how rich the 1% have gotten compared to minimum wage slaves makes me wish that we could do to Amazon and Jeff Bezos what China has done to Alibaba and Jack Ma.
Of course the world can allow "pluralism": coexist of the western democracy and one party dictatorship. "If" the one party system does not try to put all humankind under one "common destiny" of which the supreme leader of the "One Party system " has reiterated again and again. They are of the Marxism and Leninism ideology which has been proven not suitable for the current and foreseeable future of the human society. Will you live in a world that all humankind can only listen and obey to ONE supreme leader?
Democracy of the West had done more harms than good. Freedom or too much of it, is harmful. China system of governance is doing pretty well. The achievements in everything is beyond compare. It is time the Western must learn culture and virtues from China of what it takes to live like a human being.
Just put on a quick comments on last speaker Dr.Mirsky: Don’t always give someone a hard time rather than see what has changed so far. The wise way is supposed be positive and look forward rather than back. says,The mistakes of the previous generation should not be passed on to the next. All systems are not perfect, and human nature is flawed. Every system has always been in progress. Please reduce the blame, understand and learn from one another. NO ONE IS THE BEST, ONLY THE BETTER. PEACE AND LOVE