Yeah, but that's how you get engineers and architects. I mean, when i was a kid my parents hauled me around their job sites, i used to play with squares and Letraset sheets. It worked for me and partly for my brother too.
I respect him for this, he doesn't talk about something he have know ideas of. Almost every diy selfer on TH-cam brag how pocket screw are the best.. i have my doubts
Looking at the video two times just to be sure of what I saw, I noticed two issues. 1) As was previously mentioned, in the two screw tests, you stood on one foot at point of failure but for the tenon test, you stood on two feet. The net weight distribution therefore was shifted about 10 cm to the left making the strength of the John Heisz design much closer to the two tenon design. 2) For the pocket hole test, the positioning of the screws was sub-optimal. Placing them in a staggered layout (on the left 3/4 inch from top and 1 1/2 inch from the top and on the right 1 1/4 inch from the top and 2 inches from the top would spread out the load. Thanks for doing the work and making the videos. All three designs showed that they were adequate for the task at hand.
Nice test! You forgot the PL on mine, though :) Important for people to remember that the single bracket strength is important, but since you will always use more than one, the weight each one carries is greatly reduced.
@@matthiaswandel The weight on a shelf exerts force both in shear and in torque. Your tenons address the shear but not as effectively the torque. Torque is best addressed by prevention, by perhaps cantilevering the foot of the bracket turned up and BEHIND the wall surface. NO glue, no screws, and no damn pocket holes. The road to hell is paved with pocket holes. Believe me.
@@placitas52 I know, I know and i agree taht: laughing at the misfortunes of others is not charitable, but mine was a joke to bring the situation to excess
That's a good point. Construction adhesive fights the peel adhesive failure mode extremely well and I believe that Mattias said he used wood glue which broke immediately.
Like every tool and fastener in a well-equipped shop, pocket holes have their purpose. They can be a clever solution to many solutions. Thinking they will serve as heavy-duty shelving fasteners is not the fairest of tests. That's not their purpose. But I enjoyed the video. Mortise and tenon once again prove their strength as one of the better woodworking joints there are. Thank you Matthias! Quality content as always!
Strength vs effort(or speed) ratio goes to the 2 screws in the back for the win. If i needed some shelves up and wasn't planning on hanging my brick collection on them that is what i would go for. (Also cause i don't have skills for tenons..)
Hello sir im from philippines,started watching your video since 2013.one of your project ive made like home made bandsaw i used it up to now for my small furniture business.i try also make video for my new channel about wood,im always watching your videos very interesting, i learned a lot of it.thank you for sharing your skills and talent.
Thank you! More real information in less time than most test type videos. Logical and effective test set up. A person brand new to wood working and building things may not yet understand the value of this but for my part having some knowledge of these things a get to the point video like this is pure gold. I can (with what I already know) extrapolate upon the data you just provided. Ex. Same test done with straight grain hardwood, glue etc. Knowing what I already know this (simple?) and logical test gives me a place to start from as regards the potential strength of the various bracket designs. Brilliant! And straight to the point. Thank you.
These results make me feel alot better about having jointed my shelf brackets with just screws from the back either. I was - and still am- kinda worried it will just collapse at some point. Put this has put at least 15% more faith in it for me :D Thanks Matthias!
When using screws, I recommend drilling pilot holes, just to keep the wood from splitting along its grain. I think the pocket hole would have done better, if the wood wasn't split by the displacement of so many screws, in such a small area. Pilot holes would have reduced that displacement, by making "room" for the screws. No matter what, ANY of those joints would be more than adequate for any thing you're likely to set on the shelves supported by 2 or more of those brackets, including a real life "Elf on the Shelf"!
The horizontal 2x4 in the screwed version appeared to be punky. I appreciate this test and it clearly demonstrated the strength of both types of joinery. Thank you.
Several commenters have suggested that you make the joint stronger by doubling up on the fasteners - like running a screw through the tenons from the side. You pointed out how this particular process would just weaken the tenons, right where one of them cracked before. But if you were to use the tenons AND drive in a screw from behind, on center, above the tenons, it would provide extra strength without breaking wood near the tenons. How does that sound?
It's super reassuring to see how slowly and how much warning you get as screws fail! (My worst crash on a bike was from a cheap Aluminum handlebar snapping off suddenly!) I could watch hours of variations on this test but thank you for reinforcing my unwillingness to setup and wait for glue to dry! XD
It would be interesting to see the "overbuilt" joints. Like glue, tenon, and screws to see if there is any benefit in trying to get more strength, or if the material simply has a limit.
This! Thank you Matthias! Despite hating pocket holes, you did a no nonsense, unbiased test on them as well. This really means a lot for me, your honesty and integrity regarding unbiased reviews/tests. Thank you, and keep up your great content please👍
Your use of pocket holes in the video was strictly user error. You had a stripped out bit, used an impact driver, and used too long of screws. Also theres a place and time to use them vs when not to.
Your results are exactly what I would have expected. Definite advantages of one method over the other, but in reality, a shelf with a depth of 12" to 18" with 2 or 4 brackets per shelf run would support a 100 pound load using any one of the three methods. I assume the tenons had glue, but the screw methods did not, so the addition of screws & glue would provide a little extra support. Always great to see the simple things, that we all have opinions about, actually put to the test. Use "the right tool for the right job", so pocket holes do have value in my shop.
And just what may I ask are you planning on putting on the shelves. Gold bars? Armor plate? Remember, if the shelf is in the workshop anything you are putting on it has to be lifted by hand most likely.
every time i look in the mirror I see someone who has had a driver bit jump out onto his hand, accidentally screwed something to his bench, and thought he didn't need a clamp to hold a workpiece in place 🤣
Could screwing a screw into the tenon joint from the side help? I would then assume either it doesn't slip out and the tennons break, or the whole vertical piece of wood splits in half. Now there needs to be an official comparison of (quality) 2x4 shelf bracket builds.
@@matthiaswandel perhaps if the screw was longer than the tenon and also held in the arm it would be equivalent to a head screw, such as those with washers, plus the glue of the tenon, almost like reiforced concrete (in Italy we call it "cemento armato": literally armored concrete: like a medieval knight wearing his armor)
@@MK.1599 I use them all the time. They are fantastic for many applications. And with a little bit of engineering design you can use them on about anything. You can also combine methods as well such as pocket holes and biscuit joints but you can also combine Mortise and Tenon with screws.
I use them all of the time in my professional work, and they are great. I’m not sure why he had such a tough time screwing them in? He seems a little special to me.
i have been searching for u and now it was on my "homepage" I always wondered which one to do , and now I see actually I can do with screws simple coffee table, thank you
Very interesting. Lately we've been making brackets with some purchase area to clamp on during assembly. Reminded me of that seeing you try to get those pocket hole screws in.
Something I was wondering when you were building the two tenon version, since I don't have the fancy tools, was if you could make one large tenon. Then I figured the two tenons are giving you more surface area. I also thought that you could sort of make it adjustable if you added two dowels to the side instead of the glue. So what do you think of one large tenon and two dowels through the side?
Personally I think making 2 tenons is a waste of time. One larger tenon would be stronger than 2 smaller tenons. Also making 2 mortise holes in the backer wood will result in thinner wall thickness along the mortise. In almost all mortise and tenon joinery you see it is one tenon and one mortise.
The tenon joint broke partly because the glue joint failed; one large tenon would have half the surface area, so its strength would be lower as a result.
I think the important take away is that all three methods held sufficiently for the length of a single shelf. More supports across the length of a shelf would increase the maximum weight the shelf will support. Also, 155 lbs at the tip is not the same as a load distributed across the depth of the shelf. I've been planning on organizing the garage this year and have already started off with about an 8 foot width of shelving. Compared to the work done in this video, I think I over engineered my shelves like a fart to a volcano eruption! I think I'll scale back a bit and save a lot of time and money ! I have a lot more shelves to go. I like the tenon method the most, get to use more tools, augg, augg me use tools (Tim the Toolman) !!! Thank you :)
I never comment but when you drilled that pocket hole bracket to the table saw, I literally laughed out loud. That's me all day long. Thanks for that Matthias!
I wonder if the screw or nail hole in the side of the end of the board with the screws (4:17) could have weakened it. It looks like the failure goes right through that screw hole. But it looks like there were also some screw or nail holes in the end of the mortise board as well. I love when Matthias does these tests and makes us think. Excellent info Matthias! Thank you for posting.
If strength is what you're after, each method could easily be modified to achieve your desired goal, or pretty close to it. - For the mortise and tenon method drill, glue and insert appropriate sized dowels perpendicular to the tenons. Use wood glue on the M&T joint and the dowel pins. - For the screwed in butt joint, use button head screws (that are countersunk) in vertical base. Place them vertically equidistant from all four sides and themselves but offset a few mm's from the centerline of the base. In addition, use wood glue. - For the Kreg screw method, forego Kreg's Robertson screws, and use Torx/Star drive button head screws (Milescraft Brand or similar). Only use three screws, two on one side and one on the others. All equidistant from each other and the edges. In addition, use wood glue between the joints
Matthias, apparently pocket holes don't like you either. They even tried to draw blood from you, when that failed, they tried to break and drop you on the ground. I love that although you are not a fan, you are still willing to test them fairly and acknowledge them when the work well. A true scientific approach to not let your own biases stop you. Keep up the great videos. Also, OMG the kids are getting so big. Wasn't it just last week that you were making a self rocking rocker for your baby girl.
In conclusion, all these three methods a more than enough to hold anything you put on the shelf. screw win because its faster for me. double tenon is cooler for sure! For pocket hole, I think that two screws are probably better than four. Most of the time, when you drive a screw in a 2x4 the wood split, it affect the structure. For all these scenarios, a small plywood triangle can be put on the side of the structure(mount and shelf). It could probably double the strength. Great demonstration @matthias Wandel !
I've done some roofing using 120mm lag screws, 8mm diameter with a big flat head, torx drive. Awesome holding power. After about 30 screws my makita impact was almost too hot to touch, was fine though.
Those pocket holes did better than I would have thought. I do hate the square drive on pocket hole screws though. They always have a bad tendency to cam out, unlike torx screws that don't do that.
Try pocket holes on ONE side of the board. The strength is MUCH stronger. With screws on both sides, your essentially "scissor cutting" the grain and making it easier to fail. Overall great video demo though!
Great video! I wonder how the pocket holes and screws would have fared if they were face glued. Any time I use screws for this type of application I always face glue them. But that's mostly because I don't have the tooling to make double tenons. I wonder how those double tenons would fare if you wedged them, especially the top half. If I were going to engineer a tenon for this application it would be trapezoidal with the wider portion at the top, and split down the middle to form two tenons. Not sure what aspect ratio I would go for.
Pocket holes have their place. However building scaffolding is not one of their uses. Not everyone has the ability to generate mortise and tenon , dowel and other methods . In this case the pocket holes were the weakest. I doubt they would ever be used where they are exposed. Johns method seems like the best method to me.
The fact that it almost pulled the screw heads through the 2x4 even with washers under the heads on the back, tells me attaching the shelf bracket to the 2x4 with pocket holes from the front will fail way sooner even if you use 4 screws because the four screws make more chances to split the bracket piece and the heads being in the bracket peace means there's only a tiny little bit of screw with no head behind it holding it onto the 2x4.
what if you were to clamp the pieces together, drill fully through both pieces using the pocket hole jig and fill the holes instead with 3/8" dowels in an X pattern? I'm curious how it would compare to the others in this test.
He doesn't like pocket holes, but I surely do. Amazing how strong they are for building face frames and such. And with glue added, I never worry about any pocket hole attachment coming loose, also quicker then tenons too...
I make my brackets from 2inchx1inch with a diagonalbrace called gallows bracket.iwas taught this as a apprentic for supporting draining boards.i made mine 20 yrs ago but i used untreated timber and they got wood worm -borer ihave just replaced them.
Another alternative to fasten the shelf bracket to the wall bracket is to use bolts in the same manner that wooden bed frame rails are some tim fastened to bed posts. Drill a 1/2" diameter hole in the side of the shelf bracket that can be used to house a 1/4" nut.
Excellent. I was searching for this exact comparison and found this demo. I was wondering why in some applications pocket screws are used when simple screws with a large head are much simpler. Specifically, a structural screw with a large washer head would probably work best and require no jig. Fastenmaster HeadLok or Simpson Strong-Tie screws would seem ideal. Both have built in washer heads, have a Star drive to prevent cam out, and can be used w/o pre-drilling on softer woods, though wouldn’t hurt to pre-drill here. The Headloks are rated to replace 3/8” lag screws but much smaller, have grippy threads, and come in 2 7/8”, 4”, 6” etc length. Handy to have a bucket of these screws around for home projects.
In India I have seen they use (3.29) and single pronge which is like the size of your two prongs combined. Try that. And i think at some places they use a small dowel through that joint
Y'know, I'm pretty sure that John doesn't even OWN a pocket hole jig, so which one of you really hates them more? 😄 I like pocket holes fine, but I sure wouldn't use them in a shelf bracket. Still, I'm quite impressed with how well they did hold, given how they were crossed and grabbing just that small wedge of wood. I do respect that you just grabbed whatever 2x4 for this and didn't try to pre-select it.
Can we get the measurements to calculate the load placed on the bracket? The vertices measurement placed up against the wood is critical for calculating the mechanical advantage from the lever arm.
I am curious on the bracket design/mounting... Would the bracket put less stress on the fasteners that attach it to the wall if the mount extended up from the shelf arm? I don't know if it will matter, but it seems to me with the load at the top of the bracket, all the force is pulling the screws from the wall, where as with the arm at the bottom of the mount, most of the load force would be trying to push in to the wall or down to shear the fasteners rather than trying to pull them out of the wall.
“But I still don’t like pocket holes!” 😂 👍 still appreciate you experimenting with them and giving an honest review. Highly enjoyed the whole experimentation. 💖👍
John smears PU Construction Adhesive on his Breakfast Bread - what's your point? btw: try it, i use Bindan-P as regular Wood Glue and Beco Allcon 10 as D4 Glue if it wasn't that expensive, I'd pretty much only use PU since it hardens so fast compared to PVAc
How the glue ages is important, but freshly glued mitered joints are among the best in strength tests and in this case it could have slowed down wood splitting.
Ooo this was good! What about a large lag bolt with a decent-sized washer? Also, I wonder what role glue plays in all this (since the double tenon was glued). Would be interesting to try to expose the wood to watered-down wood glue, let it soak in, and then let it dry overnight.
I know someone who perforated his left hand just like that at 5:40 A long PH2 bit, an impact driver and some slippage. The bit went all the way through the hand, he has scars to prove it.
LOL every time I see Steve use pocket holes I think of you, and every time you use them I think of Steve and your very serious YT drama Good to see you Matthias, and that your family is well :)
It's interesting to compare this to your cantilevered work table which seemed to hold your weight on the end way better. I'm guessing the bridal joints plus the better wood made those joints much stronger than what you used in this video.
Would pilot hole before 3” screws were inserted best the tenon results? It should limit premature splitting caused by wedging the screws between wood fibers
Thanks! I’m building some shelves right now and was wondering if I should buy brackets or build some simple ones like this. I feel much better using some homemade ones knowing it’ll hold more than enough.
I would have done the screws and tenons vertically (top and bottom) instead of horizontally (side by side.) I would think that is stronger. Why did you choose the way you did?
what if u used a combination of screws and nails. since screws have no shear strength due to the work hardening principle from turning threads onto metal. kind of like same reason nails are preferred fasteners in structural applications where shear strength is needed (i.e hoist hangers)
That was more of a bending moment test I think. I wonder what a fixed moment arm and increased load would do. The moment would increase of course but so would the shear. The increased area of the mortise I think would do better as you increase shear but I think you'd need your hydraulic jack and a pretty hefty scale to measure it.
I would say the strongest overall would be the tenons with nice straight grain and dowels driven in at 90 deg to mortice and tenons. This would guarantee a break rather than tenons slipping out. A question to ponder. Should the tenon thickness and spacing be equidistant? In the setup I mentioned the answer to this question can be answered if an equidistant test setup. Would the actual tenon fail or would the mortice side split apart or would the dowel shear? My instinct says favour must be given to a slightly thicker (a very small amount) tenon to withstand slippage and notching of the tenon from the linear tension applied by the dowels.
For a well proportioned mortise and tenon joint, pinning it weakens it as it cuts off the fibers of the tenons. If it's well proportioned, the tenon itself is a limiting factor, so you don't want to put a hole in it.
@@matthiaswandel Thats why I said favour should be given to a slightly thicker tenon, I do accept your point in that a hole will reduce tensile strength though. I noticed your tenon failed half way down it's length which technically should not be the weakest point given it should be reinforced with glue plus friction, ideally I think you want the tenon to fail at the base leaving it seated in the mortice. To me this would seem like optimal strength in this situation.
Were those Phillips-head screws that cammed out? I never get camming with torx or square-recess screws. I'd use structural screws (e.g. GRK) for an application like this.
Big uncle Steve will be along to teach you those advanced pocket hole techniques. 😁 Seriously though, destruction tests and comparisons like this are both fascinating and tremendously valuable, thank you and more please.
I came back to this video because it jus occurred to me that even on the pocket holes you had to go beyond the length of the shelf bracket and at that distance it was still a phenomenal load on the bracket, though they were clearly inferior, unless you store a lot of really heavy stuff, they were adequate. Of course I would want more than adequate.
@@andy4an Ow yeah the dislike for pocket holes goes way back. Like when he did the comparitive testing using a kitchen scale on his bench. The dislike for pocket holes was obvious back then too.
Try using them on one side or staggered where they don't almost collide. But I guess if you just want to show how awful they are, you did a great job. All my indoor wood storage was done using the Kreg HD jig and 2 x 4s and 2x6s of Southern Yellow pine, Ditto for my outdoor rabbit cage hangers (15' each split into 6 cage areas). I use them for boxes, cabintes and many jobs around the shop. That said, I have jobs where I hand cut dovetails, hand cut motise and tenon joinery with both hidden and through tenons. I use my good planes, chisels and other hand tools for these projects as opposed to the ones for the farm I run and do a huge amount of wood working on. But if you don't like them, don't use them. They work, they are strong and they are fast - both to use and to learn. Spend a little time and learn to use them correctly and you may find you like them as much as methods that take twice as long for the job at hand. By the way - were the holes drilled at the correct angle for the board thickness and were the correct screws used. Didn't look like either from here and both are very important.
When your kids begin breaking toys and tell you, “I wanted to see how strong it is.” You can only blame yourself.
Yeah, but that's how you get engineers and architects. I mean, when i was a kid my parents hauled me around their job sites, i used to play with squares and Letraset sheets. It worked for me and partly for my brother too.
I will repair anything that was broken for a reason, i.e not from anger or boredom.
Sean Connery acsent: "you can only blame yourshelf"
Nek nganggo kayu sing atos may be strong
Theyll be learning
The only reason Matthias has a Kreg Hole jig is just to rip on how much he hates pocket holes.
That's a valid reason ;) SUCH a valid reason!
I thought it was a good way to store his broken drills. . .
Any sale counts as a sale.
lol
I respect him for this, he doesn't talk about something he have know ideas of. Almost every diy selfer on TH-cam brag how pocket screw are the best.. i have my doubts
Somewhere in Matthias' autobiography is a chapter on Pocket Holes and the reason why he hates them so much...
... there was that humiliating pocket hole failure back in his father's shop at the age of 4... ha
@@randybartlett3042 So that's why he burnt it down!?
Wouldn't it just be the whole book?
Either that, or something like:
Chapter 4: Pocket Holes
No.
Chapter 5: ...
Page 42. "On pocket holes, and why I hate them."
Looking at the video two times just to be sure of what I saw, I noticed two issues.
1) As was previously mentioned, in the two screw tests, you stood on one foot at point of failure but for the tenon test, you stood on two feet. The net weight distribution therefore was shifted about 10 cm to the left making the strength of the John Heisz design much closer to the two tenon design.
2) For the pocket hole test, the positioning of the screws was sub-optimal. Placing them in a staggered layout (on the left 3/4 inch from top and 1 1/2 inch from the top and on the right 1 1/4 inch from the top and 2 inches from the top would spread out the load.
Thanks for doing the work and making the videos. All three designs showed that they were adequate for the task at hand.
Sorry, He lost me at cm instead of inches like American's should use.
@@DGOTheResistance Lol not enough freedom units for you
@@DGOTheResistance yea, and correct apostrophe's use too... X"D
@@DGOTheResistance making a comment cause I wanna see the comments of people getting angry about your little joke there
Nice test! You forgot the PL on mine, though :)
Important for people to remember that the single bracket strength is important, but since you will always use more than one, the weight each one carries is greatly reduced.
unless you put something heavy right on the support. The shelf isn't that stiff, so that bracket gets the whole load.
Fight! Fight!
@@johncox8645 I feel another challenge coming on!!!
@@matthiaswandel now now, play nicely
@@matthiaswandel The weight on a shelf exerts force both in shear and in torque. Your tenons address the shear but not as effectively the torque. Torque is best addressed by prevention, by perhaps cantilevering the foot of the bracket turned up and BEHIND the wall surface. NO glue, no screws, and no damn pocket holes. The road to hell is paved with pocket holes. Believe me.
I had a good laugh when you screwed it to the table saw. 😂
See! Another reason pocket holes are awful!
pitiless!
hahaha
Me too, these screw seem quite long, but he know what he is doing. ok .. but still human.
I only laughed because it's something I would do. Still loved the video even though I doubt I'd need any single bracket to hold close to 100lbs.
@@placitas52 I know, I know and i agree taht: laughing at the misfortunes of others is not charitable, but mine was a joke to bring the situation to excess
Clearly this was not a John Heisz Method - there was no construction adhesive involved :)
Polly Urethane was in quarantaine, she couldn't come.
Or pin nails 🤪
That's a good point. Construction adhesive fights the peel adhesive failure mode extremely well and I believe that Mattias said he used wood glue which broke immediately.
Or plywood.
@@LukePighetti the latest project farm video with loctite pl8x adhesive could handle 1600lbs!
Like every tool and fastener in a well-equipped shop, pocket holes have their purpose. They can be a clever solution to many solutions. Thinking they will serve as heavy-duty shelving fasteners is not the fairest of tests. That's not their purpose. But I enjoyed the video. Mortise and tenon once again prove their strength as one of the better woodworking joints there are. Thank you Matthias! Quality content as always!
I miss my kids asking "why?" all of the time. Now they're at the time of life when they know "everything" :D
They turned 5 ?
my son will soon be at the age of asking why, alot.
@@PlasmaHH I literally told my parents "I know everything!" and it's one of my only memories of being 5.
@@bmoelly8123 if he gets to you such that you're at wit's end, just ask him why he asks you that
When i was 8 back in ‘88, at the end of season potluck and awards ceremony for our soccer team, my AYSO soccer coach gave me the “...but why?” Award
"What are you doing daddy?" "IMPORTANT SCIENCE THINGS" *snap, thunk*
Daddy!!! Are you OK?
Strength vs effort(or speed) ratio goes to the 2 screws in the back for the win. If i needed some shelves up and wasn't planning on hanging my brick collection on them that is what i would go for. (Also cause i don't have skills for tenons..)
Hello sir im from philippines,started watching your video since 2013.one of your project ive made like home made bandsaw i used it up to now for my small furniture business.i try also make video for my new channel about wood,im always watching your videos very interesting, i learned a lot of it.thank you for sharing your skills and talent.
Thank you! More real information in less time than most test type videos.
Logical and effective test set up.
A person brand new to wood working and building things may not yet understand the value of this but for my part having some knowledge of these things a get to the point video like this is pure gold.
I can (with what I already know) extrapolate upon the data you just provided.
Ex. Same test done with straight grain hardwood, glue etc.
Knowing what I already know this (simple?) and logical test gives me a place to start from as regards the potential strength of the various bracket designs.
Brilliant!
And straight to the point.
Thank you.
Videos where you test things like this are the best ones. Take it to the extreme, and see how it goes. Great videos.
These results make me feel alot better about having jointed my shelf brackets with just screws from the back either. I was - and still am- kinda worried it will just collapse at some point. Put this has put at least 15% more faith in it for me :D
Thanks Matthias!
When using screws, I recommend drilling pilot holes, just to keep the wood from splitting along its grain. I think the pocket hole would have done better, if the wood wasn't split by the displacement of so many screws, in such a small area. Pilot holes would have reduced that displacement, by making "room" for the screws. No matter what, ANY of those joints would be more than adequate for any thing you're likely to set on the shelves supported by 2 or more of those brackets, including a real life "Elf on the Shelf"!
The horizontal 2x4 in the screwed version appeared to be punky. I appreciate this test and it clearly demonstrated the strength of both types of joinery. Thank you.
Several commenters have suggested that you make the joint stronger by doubling up on the fasteners - like running a screw through the tenons from the side. You pointed out how this particular process would just weaken the tenons, right where one of them cracked before. But if you were to use the tenons AND drive in a screw from behind, on center, above the tenons, it would provide extra strength without breaking wood near the tenons. How does that sound?
Yes, one long screw right between the tenons. I actually have done that for a previous double tenon joined shelf.
I have used thin cross grain dowels as reinforcement for screws, biscuits and pocket holes as wood splitting can be a problem.
It's super reassuring to see how slowly and how much warning you get as screws fail! (My worst crash on a bike was from a cheap Aluminum handlebar snapping off suddenly!)
I could watch hours of variations on this test but thank you for reinforcing my unwillingness to setup and wait for glue to dry! XD
I absolutely love the strength test videos, it's the nerves when you hear the first creaks and cracks!
Frankly pocket holes exceeded my expectations here. Ironically, you gave them a boost! Thanks for a fun video and a glimpse of your cute kids.
A straight grained 2x4? Good Luck finding that
WiscoFun no kidding
Hard enough to find a straight 2x4 lol
It would be interesting to see the "overbuilt" joints. Like glue, tenon, and screws to see if there is any benefit in trying to get more strength, or if the material simply has a limit.
This! Thank you Matthias!
Despite hating pocket holes, you did a no nonsense, unbiased test on them as well. This really means a lot for me, your honesty and integrity regarding unbiased reviews/tests.
Thank you, and keep up your great content please👍
Your still one of my favourite swearers on the toob. Keep trucking bro.
Your use of pocket holes in the video was strictly user error. You had a stripped out bit, used an impact driver, and used too long of screws. Also theres a place and time to use them vs when not to.
One on each side, or two on one and one on the other staggered, likely would have been stronger.
even so, the shelf was strong enough.
Yep I said about the same thing
Your results are exactly what I would have expected. Definite advantages of one method over the other, but in reality, a shelf with a depth of 12" to 18" with 2 or 4 brackets per shelf run would support a 100 pound load using any one of the three methods. I assume the tenons had glue, but the screw methods did not, so the addition of screws & glue would provide a little extra support. Always great to see the simple things, that we all have opinions about, actually put to the test. Use "the right tool for the right job", so pocket holes do have value in my shop.
Wear a hard hat in your shop ;-)
And just what may I ask are you planning on putting on the shelves. Gold bars? Armor plate? Remember, if the shelf is in the workshop anything you are putting on it has to be lifted by hand most likely.
I’ve never seen someone struggle so hard to screw in pocket screws
ShortyzProductionz Give him a break. I think he’s a little special.
every time i look in the mirror I see someone who has had a driver bit jump out onto his hand, accidentally screwed something to his bench, and thought he didn't need a clamp to hold a workpiece in place 🤣
Could screwing a screw into the tenon joint from the side help?
I would then assume either it doesn't slip out and the tennons break, or the whole vertical piece of wood splits in half.
Now there needs to be an official comparison of (quality) 2x4 shelf bracket builds.
probably not. too small an area, plus it breaks part of the tenon so it's more likely to tear.
@@matthiaswandel perhaps if the screw was longer than the tenon and also held in the arm it would be equivalent to a head screw, such as those with washers, plus the glue of the tenon, almost like reiforced concrete (in Italy we call it "cemento armato": literally armored concrete: like a medieval knight wearing his armor)
@@matthiaswandel What about adding a wedge to the tenon? Yes it's more work, but I would think it would add strength to the tenon.
This vid makes feel better about me being clumsy and hurting myself at times. Thank you.
i have never seen someone struggle with pocket hole before......
Me too, but its because none of the people i know who work with wood use them.
I use them, they have their uses, not everything needs to be mortised and tenoned.
@@MK.1599
I use them all the time. They are fantastic for many applications. And with a little bit of engineering design you can use them on about anything.
You can also combine methods as well such as pocket holes and biscuit joints but you can also combine Mortise and Tenon with screws.
I use them all of the time in my professional work, and they are great. I’m not sure why he had such a tough time screwing them in? He seems a little special to me.
@@marilynwong9784 that 6 inch extension bit wasn't doing him any favors 😅
i have been searching for u and now it was on my "homepage"
I always wondered which one to do , and now I see actually I can do with screws simple coffee table, thank you
fast cap sells some big washer head screws and 1 inch washers made to go on regular wood screws.
Very interesting. Lately we've been making brackets with some purchase area to clamp on during assembly. Reminded me of that seeing you try to get those pocket hole screws in.
Something I was wondering when you were building the two tenon version, since I don't have the fancy tools, was if you could make one large tenon. Then I figured the two tenons are giving you more surface area. I also thought that you could sort of make it adjustable if you added two dowels to the side instead of the glue. So what do you think of one large tenon and two dowels through the side?
I don't think much of it. You try it and see.
Personally I think making 2 tenons is a waste of time. One larger tenon would be stronger than 2 smaller tenons. Also making 2 mortise holes in the backer wood will result in thinner wall thickness along the mortise. In almost all mortise and tenon joinery you see it is one tenon and one mortise.
The tenon joint broke partly because the glue joint failed; one large tenon would have half the surface area, so its strength would be lower as a result.
You and the pocket holes. Happy 2022 to you and your family.
I think the important take away is that all three methods held sufficiently for the length of a single shelf.
More supports across the length of a shelf would increase the maximum weight the shelf will support.
Also, 155 lbs at the tip is not the same as a load distributed across the depth of the shelf.
I've been planning on organizing the garage this year and have already started off with about an 8 foot width of shelving. Compared to the work done in this video, I think I over engineered my shelves like a fart to a volcano eruption!
I think I'll scale back a bit and save a lot of time and money !
I have a lot more shelves to go.
I like the tenon method the most, get to use more tools, augg, augg me use tools (Tim the Toolman) !!!
Thank you :)
I never comment but when you drilled that pocket hole bracket to the table saw, I literally laughed out loud. That's me all day long. Thanks for that Matthias!
I wonder if the screw or nail hole in the side of the end of the board with the screws (4:17) could have weakened it.
It looks like the failure goes right through that screw hole.
But it looks like there were also some screw or nail holes in the end of the mortise board as well.
I love when Matthias does these tests and makes us think.
Excellent info Matthias! Thank you for posting.
If strength is what you're after, each method could easily be modified to achieve your desired goal, or pretty close to it.
- For the mortise and tenon method drill, glue and insert appropriate sized dowels perpendicular to the tenons. Use wood glue on the M&T joint and the dowel pins.
- For the screwed in butt joint, use button head screws (that are countersunk) in vertical base. Place them vertically equidistant from all four sides and themselves but offset a few mm's from the centerline of the base. In addition, use wood glue.
- For the Kreg screw method, forego Kreg's Robertson screws, and use Torx/Star drive button head screws (Milescraft Brand or similar). Only use three screws, two on one side and one on the others. All equidistant from each other and the edges. In addition, use wood glue between the joints
Matthias, apparently pocket holes don't like you either. They even tried to draw blood from you, when that failed, they tried to break and drop you on the ground. I love that although you are not a fan, you are still willing to test them fairly and acknowledge them when the work well. A true scientific approach to not let your own biases stop you. Keep up the great videos. Also, OMG the kids are getting so big. Wasn't it just last week that you were making a self rocking rocker for your baby girl.
In conclusion, all these three methods a more than enough to hold anything you put on the shelf. screw win because its faster for me. double tenon is cooler for sure! For pocket hole, I think that two screws are probably better than four. Most of the time, when you drive a screw in a 2x4 the wood split, it affect the structure. For all these scenarios, a small plywood triangle can be put on the side of the structure(mount and shelf). It could probably double the strength. Great demonstration @matthias Wandel !
I've done some roofing using 120mm lag screws, 8mm diameter with a big flat head, torx drive. Awesome holding power. After about 30 screws my makita impact was almost too hot to touch, was fine though.
Those pocket holes did better than I would have thought. I do hate the square drive on pocket hole screws though. They always have a bad tendency to cam out, unlike torx screws that don't do that.
Try pocket holes on ONE side of the board. The strength is MUCH stronger. With screws on both sides, your essentially "scissor cutting" the grain and making it easier to fail. Overall great video demo though!
Love your work and presentation. You are one of the coolest guys on the planet.
Great video! I wonder how the pocket holes and screws would have fared if they were face glued. Any time I use screws for this type of application I always face glue them. But that's mostly because I don't have the tooling to make double tenons. I wonder how those double tenons would fare if you wedged them, especially the top half. If I were going to engineer a tenon for this application it would be trapezoidal with the wider portion at the top, and split down the middle to form two tenons. Not sure what aspect ratio I would go for.
the screw joint was glued. Just didn't bother mentioning it because it made zero difference. Glue failed before the screws got much tension on them.
@@matthiaswandel Must be that notorious peel failure mode, especially with a glue as brittle as wood glue. Thanks Matt, have a great week!
Pocket holes have their place. However building scaffolding is not one of their uses. Not everyone has the ability to generate mortise and tenon , dowel and other methods . In this case the pocket holes were the weakest. I doubt they would ever be used where they are exposed. Johns method seems like the best method to me.
The pocket hole test wasn't really fair, though, when you consider the direction of the screw versus the direction of the force applied
Yea, and it's clear the screws crossing over and the rescrewing to pull them from the table saw damaged the wood that tore out in the test.
The fact that it almost pulled the screw heads through the 2x4 even with washers under the heads on the back, tells me attaching the shelf bracket to the 2x4 with pocket holes from the front will fail way sooner even if you use 4 screws because the four screws make more chances to split the bracket piece and the heads being in the bracket peace means there's only a tiny little bit of screw with no head behind it holding it onto the 2x4.
what if you pre-drill those holes as I think drilling screws straight into it is weaking that wood
what if you were to clamp the pieces together, drill fully through both pieces using the pocket hole jig and fill the holes instead with 3/8" dowels in an X pattern? I'm curious how it would compare to the others in this test.
He doesn't like pocket holes, but I surely do. Amazing how strong they are for building face frames and such. And with glue added, I never worry about any pocket hole attachment coming loose, also quicker then tenons too...
I make my brackets from 2inchx1inch with a diagonalbrace called gallows bracket.iwas taught this as a apprentic for supporting draining boards.i made mine 20 yrs ago but i used untreated timber and they got wood worm -borer ihave just replaced them.
I was laughing so much at you struggling with the pocket holes.
Would be interesting to see if one big tenon is stronger than a double tenon since the failure mode seems to be the wood not the glue.
The glue failed on top first, they broke on the bottom after?
yes i wanted it to break
why ?
(cause they were pocket holes) lol
Gave me some good ideas on how to better engineer for strength. Thanks.
Another alternative to fasten the shelf bracket to the wall bracket is to use bolts in the same manner that wooden bed frame rails are some tim fastened to bed posts. Drill a 1/2" diameter hole in the side of the shelf bracket that can be used to house a 1/4" nut.
Excellent. I was searching for this exact comparison and found this demo. I was wondering why in some applications pocket screws are used when simple screws with a large head are much simpler.
Specifically, a structural screw with a large washer head would probably work best and require no jig.
Fastenmaster HeadLok or Simpson Strong-Tie screws would seem ideal. Both have built in washer heads, have a Star drive to prevent cam out, and can be used w/o pre-drilling on softer woods, though wouldn’t hurt to pre-drill here. The Headloks are rated to replace 3/8” lag screws but much smaller, have grippy threads, and come in 2 7/8”, 4”, 6” etc length.
Handy to have a bucket of these screws around for home projects.
In India I have seen they use (3.29) and single pronge which is like the size of your two prongs combined. Try that. And i think at some places they use a small dowel through that joint
I would like to see the double tenons vs one fat tennon. See if it's worth it to go to the trouble of making two mortises.
Wouldn't a more coarse screw, with broader head (like a lag screw) be much more durable?
Thanks for all your experiments, they are really enjoying!
Y'know, I'm pretty sure that John doesn't even OWN a pocket hole jig, so which one of you really hates them more? 😄
I like pocket holes fine, but I sure wouldn't use them in a shelf bracket. Still, I'm quite impressed with how well they did hold, given how they were crossed and grabbing just that small wedge of wood.
I do respect that you just grabbed whatever 2x4 for this and didn't try to pre-select it.
I just grabbed whatever 2x4, just like I did for the other ones.
Can we get the measurements to calculate the load placed on the bracket? The vertices measurement placed up against the wood is critical for calculating the mechanical advantage from the lever arm.
I am curious on the bracket design/mounting... Would the bracket put less stress on the fasteners that attach it to the wall if the mount extended up from the shelf arm? I don't know if it will matter, but it seems to me with the load at the top of the bracket, all the force is pulling the screws from the wall, where as with the arm at the bottom of the mount, most of the load force would be trying to push in to the wall or down to shear the fasteners rather than trying to pull them out of the wall.
“But I still don’t like pocket holes!” 😂 👍 still appreciate you experimenting with them and giving an honest review. Highly enjoyed the whole experimentation. 💖👍
In his John used construction adhesive and screws.
for this, the glue butt joint fails long before the screws help much, so overall, it doesn't help.
John smears PU Construction Adhesive on his Breakfast Bread - what's your point?
btw: try it, i use Bindan-P as regular Wood Glue and Beco Allcon 10 as D4 Glue
if it wasn't that expensive, I'd pretty much only use PU since it hardens so fast compared to PVAc
How the glue ages is important, but freshly glued mitered joints are among the best in strength tests and in this case it could have slowed down wood splitting.
Could you please make a strength test,
If you add a weak column in front of the bracket how much stronger could be?
Thanks
Did you ever test Robertson vs Torx? Might end your self-injuring behaviour when dissing the enemy (i.e. pocket holes)
“Damn it, I just screwed it to my table saw. I hate pocket screws!” 😂
Ooo this was good! What about a large lag bolt with a decent-sized washer?
Also, I wonder what role glue plays in all this (since the double tenon was glued). Would be interesting to try to expose the wood to watered-down wood glue, let it soak in, and then let it dry overnight.
I know someone who perforated his left hand just like that at 5:40
A long PH2 bit, an impact driver and some slippage. The bit went all the way through the hand, he has scars to prove it.
This video is unavailable to me from subscriptions. Why? Only direct link from Google search.
Would a method that uses nuts and bolts be better since the failure always seemed to be on one end of the screw?
LOL every time I see Steve use pocket holes I think of you, and every time you use them I think of Steve and your very serious YT drama
Good to see you Matthias, and that your family is well :)
It's interesting to compare this to your cantilevered work table which seemed to hold your weight on the end way better. I'm guessing the bridal joints plus the better wood made those joints much stronger than what you used in this video.
Would pilot hole before 3” screws were inserted best the tenon results? It should limit premature splitting caused by wedging the screws between wood fibers
Watch the video, see me drill the pilot hole?
Matthias Wandel I was referring to the first (long screws with washers) not the pocket holes. iirc you never showed that part
Thanks! I’m building some shelves right now and was wondering if I should buy brackets or build some simple ones like this. I feel much better using some homemade ones knowing it’ll hold more than enough.
I would have done the screws and tenons vertically (top and bottom) instead of horizontally (side by side.) I would think that is stronger. Why did you choose the way you did?
what if u used a combination of screws and nails. since screws have no shear strength due to the work hardening principle from turning threads onto metal. kind of like same reason nails are preferred fasteners in structural applications where shear strength is needed (i.e hoist hangers)
7:08 What if you made a pocket hole on top?
Always looking forward for your "stress tests" Matthias
That was more of a bending moment test I think. I wonder what a fixed moment arm and increased load would do. The moment would increase of course but so would the shear. The increased area of the mortise I think would do better as you increase shear but I think you'd need your hydraulic jack and a pretty hefty scale to measure it.
Love that the kids are asking what you are doing and why.
Mama Wandel is a great seamstress! Those bucket hats on the kids were super cute!!
I wonder if a Rachel will ever do Stess Tests with their Kids Clothes 😂
Did he just say setting up and driving 2 screws was just as hard as making two tenons and mortise joints!? 4:50 can link hyperlink to time from phone
I didn't show the trouble I went through to get those screws in
Matthias Wandel that and you must be king at making mortise and tenon joints
I love watching your test vids.
I would say the strongest overall would be the tenons with nice straight grain and dowels driven in at 90 deg to mortice and tenons. This would guarantee a break rather than tenons slipping out. A question to ponder. Should the tenon thickness and spacing be equidistant? In the setup I mentioned the answer to this question can be answered if an equidistant test setup. Would the actual tenon fail or would the mortice side split apart or would the dowel shear? My instinct says favour must be given to a slightly thicker (a very small amount) tenon to withstand slippage and notching of the tenon from the linear tension applied by the dowels.
For a well proportioned mortise and tenon joint, pinning it weakens it as it cuts off the fibers of the tenons. If it's well proportioned, the tenon itself is a limiting factor, so you don't want to put a hole in it.
@@matthiaswandel Thats why I said favour should be given to a slightly thicker tenon, I do accept your point in that a hole will reduce tensile strength though. I noticed your tenon failed half way down it's length which technically should not be the weakest point given it should be reinforced with glue plus friction, ideally I think you want the tenon to fail at the base leaving it seated in the mortice. To me this would seem like optimal strength in this situation.
Were those Phillips-head screws that cammed out? I never get camming with torx or square-recess screws. I'd use structural screws (e.g. GRK) for an application like this.
In this episode of Canada vs Canada.....
...no maple was harmed
@@ginglyst But the 2X4's were probably cut in Canada.
Big uncle Steve will be along to teach you those advanced pocket hole techniques. 😁 Seriously though, destruction tests and comparisons like this are both fascinating and tremendously valuable, thank you and more please.
I came back to this video because it jus occurred to me that even on the pocket holes you had to go beyond the length of the shelf bracket and at that distance it was still a phenomenal load on the bracket, though they were clearly inferior, unless you store a lot of really heavy stuff, they were adequate. Of course I would want more than adequate.
I wonder how gluing the end grain and using actual countersunk lag bolts would work out?
Finally, the newest chapter in the pocket hole saga.
I love this show, its why I use glue all the time.
wait, has he been raving about them for a while? I've been subscribed for years, and I don't recall him talking about them before. did i just miss it?
@@andy4an Ow yeah the dislike for pocket holes goes way back. Like when he did the comparitive testing using a kitchen scale on his bench. The dislike for pocket holes was obvious back then too.
Maybe someone has suggested it or you've already thought about it but what about locking casters for your bench or even folding casters
Try using them on one side or staggered where they don't almost collide. But I guess if you just want to show how awful they are, you did a great job. All my indoor wood storage was done using the Kreg HD jig and 2 x 4s and 2x6s of Southern Yellow pine, Ditto for my outdoor rabbit cage hangers (15' each split into 6 cage areas). I use them for boxes, cabintes and many jobs around the shop. That said, I have jobs where I hand cut dovetails, hand cut motise and tenon joinery with both hidden and through tenons. I use my good planes, chisels and other hand tools for these projects as opposed to the ones for the farm I run and do a huge amount of wood working on. But if you don't like them, don't use them. They work, they are strong and they are fast - both to use and to learn. Spend a little time and learn to use them correctly and you may find you like them as much as methods that take twice as long for the job at hand. By the way - were the holes drilled at the correct angle for the board thickness and were the correct screws used. Didn't look like either from here and both are very important.
I wonder if on the shelf bracket you drilled a hole for a dowel so the screw bit into some long grain instead off end grain if it would hold better?
seeing that this is not where it failed, I don't see that making a difference. Might even weaken it seeing that the wood itself tore around there.
How about using some 3/8- 1/2 inch 4 inch long lag bolts?