How Should We Properly Date? - Questions with Father #35 w/ Fr. Gardner
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 ส.ค. 2024
- Today on Questions With Father on the SSPX Podcast, we are happy to welcome Father
Nicholas Gardner, the chaplain for Saint Marys College in Saint Marys Kansas, to discuss the
topic of dating.
The world has a very different idea about dating - so much so th at it’s properly known in the
Catholic sense by an entirely different word - courtship.
So what is Catholic courtship, and how does it differ from the “normal” idea of dating?
This is an episode that every young man or woman should review before they begin any sort of
dating or courtship.
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We need information on this about older Catholic customs that have been lost since the Council
That was excellent advice and it needs to be taught more. How wonderful are our SSPX priests!
As a 30 year-old who dated a woman for too long, thank you. At times I feel us millennial were given a very bad deal in cathecisis. Praying for my future wife..........though this is meant for youth. AS A GROWN MAN.......I WISH I HEARD THIS LOOOOOOOOONG AGO
THANK YOU
This was great. Please do a longer segment on courtship. It is sorely needed!!
A history of the degradation of courtship and the rise of dating beginning in the twenties would be great.
aWeSoMe!! Like a breath of fresh air blowing through our carnal culture!! Thank you!
I mourn not having been properly formed towards marriage, including dating. It's been only within the past couple years, learning about tradition, that I have a grasp as to what marriage is supposed to be. This newly-found knowledge would have saved me from a terrible relationship years ago.
Also, I understand why couples of childbearing age are the focus of marriage chats and preparation, but I wish the SSPX and the greater Church (even such as it is) would also encourage those 50+ years old towards sacramental marriage. Some might have never married, some might be widowed and some might have annulled/invalidated marriages, but they're not dead.
With proper formation (which most born in the 50s-60s onward need, IMO) and support, they, too, can provide healthy examples to this world of what marriage should be. If anything, those who marry older are doing so when they are more likely to deal with the "in sickness" part rather than the "in health" part than younger couples are, and I think there's grace in being willing to take on a lifelong commitment when age-related frailties are close by. Plus, physical attraction to a future spouse isn't based on his/her looks of his/her 20s and 30s, so I think marriage in older couples can weed out some superficial tendencies, too.
Beings over 50 and single parent ( annulled and invalid marriages -) makes me really on the fringe and I’ve basically accepted it must be what God wants for me… yet I never imagined I would end up so alone . Not giving up hope yet older age group is not really important it seems - I have 5 adult children and did/ do the best I can and overcame so much. . I would imagine any Catholic would want to get to know others - in any case … i accept it as my cross to bear :(
I’m 65, never married after two bad relationships when much younger and almost entirely ignorant of the Catholic religion despite going to “catechism.” I’m literally the only one left of my family. I also have literally one close friend left, but she’s 1,500 miles away. God must have a purpose, but I’m pretty much alone. I lost my job, retirement, and housing for not submitting to forced vaccination, so I’ve been squatting in a rural camp since 2021.
Very informative and super balanced!
I agree with Father Gardener completely in regards to the teachings of the Church in courtship. As a father, how do I enforce a non fraternizing rule for my minor children to help them focus on their studies and healthy goals for their futures? Sadly, they have Catholic friends (their respective ages) who are getting caught up with boyfriend/girlfriend crushes and puppy love. The older generation of parents used to care and put an end to it, but my generation of parents don't seem to care. Could you please offer some advice and/or clarify the Traditional Catholic stance on this point? Thank you.
As my mother (RIP) always said, “Puppy love leads to a dog’s life.”
This was a great upload!
I’ve been a latecomer into the Traditional Faith. Approximately 7 years. I myself did not receive this teaching nor advise in my own youth at my church.
Having lived and survived a rollercoaster marriage I now have two young men who have yet to marry but don’t seem inclined nor motivated. What would you advise Father for these two young men.
As their Mother, I pray Our Lady will lead them to the right woman.
I'm so glad I watched this. Thanks a bunch
I recomend everyone watch "Honourable courtship by fr Isaac Mary Relyea" here on youtube.
I hope you guys do another one just more in-depth. Its very helpful.
JMJ I do have a question. When father said going out your safe because your in public. But today’s public is so immoral that basically anything goes. Where is that then a good way to be alone. Public places today are not safe to help keep morals pure. Would it not be better to have a chaperone there?
I am married to none Catholic man. He was converted to Catholic after we got married but in Novos Ordos church. Traditional is not around in our place. My husband not really practising our Catholic Faith, not coming to Sunday Mass. Now I am having problem to brought up my son. Because my son can see what his father doing. I am worried about my son future influence by my husband. Please can you give me advise Father. Thank you and God bless
We've told our sons that they could get married during college or as in my older son's case medical school if they meet their future wives during those years.
I would like to ask Father why the emphasis on waiting until an adult is through a certain stage in their life to begin courtship? I agree that 15 year olds have no business in a courtship and that this day and age is not the same as the past when younger people got married and had families. However, can you explain further why merely being in college is a hindrance to begin courtship? If someone were to complete undergraduate and graduate degrees, they may be in their late 20s before they even begin to court. That seems unnecessary and a potential hazard in and of itself. Thank you for any reply and I apologize if I misinterpreted what you meant.
Father Gardner is on retreat, so I can try. I think Fr's point is that marriage needs to be a realistic possibility 18 months (or at the most 24 months) from the beginning of dating. Being in an exclusive, emotionally-charged relationship for longer-term periods is discouraged, since it tends to become increasingly an occasion of sin. Dating / courtship does in fact present certain difficulties in itself, but these are reasonable and proportionate to working out who you want to marry. But it shouldn't take you more than 2 years to figure out, "is this the person I want to marry?"
I'm sure we can all think of the odd couple here or there who dated / were engaged for a long long time and comported themselves admirably. But exceptions make for bad rules.
If in College you are more than two years away from financially being ready to start a family, then we would discourage dating, just because it would seem - in those circumstances - to represent an unnecessary occasion of sin.
In Christ,
Fr. P. Franks
@@SSPX "If in College you are more than two years away from financially being ready to start a family, then we would discourage dating"
I think this is what I was having a slight reaction to. Certainly if one is destitute they may not be ready for marriage, but I think the idea that one must be "settled" either financially or occupationally before marriage leads a lot of people to unnecessarily delay courting and marriage; decreasing family size, increasing the passions, etc. While it is definitely more difficult, going to school is not (in and of itself) a barrier to supporting a family.
Hopefully that wasn't confrontational, or rude.
God bless you, Fr. Franks.
Dear Todd,
I mean, there's "settled" and there's "settled". Most people are not independently wealthy. So having an income of some kind is going to be necessary for them .
Assuming there are to be children, we try to set things up so that a woman can stay home with her young children. We hold that a woman with children who are not yet in school should only work outside of the home exceptionally and for a serious reason. It follows from this that the man must be in a position to support the family financially. Not necessarily with all the luxuries, but at least with reasonable means. If you and your young wife are willing to be very sparing and make do with little, that is great. But financial difficulties do put a lot of pressure on a marriage and can be a factor in marriages breaking down too. So I suppose we just mean to urge prudence there.
You can decide what constitutes having "means to support a family" between yourselves. But it is super important that you are truly honest with yourself and with each other in that conversation.
If you are in school and have a stable income, sufficient to support a family, it is not impossible - but is still something to talk about together, because it will mean juggling a lot, and one just has to ensure there is sufficient time and energy left for the family.
This is my view, not necessarily any official SSPX position.
In Christ,
Fr. P. Franks
I am 18 yo and thinking about a seminary for a couple of years. Even before discovering tradicional latin mass etc. Every priest (in modernistic structures) that I talked to said to me: before you enter the seminary you should already have experience dating woman and it would be great if you had before a girlfriend. Of course it's not recommend to have a girlfriend during studying - you can get suspended ~ they said. A lot of young seminarians leave the seminary because they experience "first love" during studying and they they marry. Opinion from this video is the first that I hear that corresponds with mine. Why would I date a girl if I am thinking since ... always about priesthood? What would be the foundation of such a relationship? Companionship and "testing things up"? Tell me if I am wrong. But imo dating before seminary when you are shure that you really want to go to the seminary is not a good option.
No SSPX priest would ever counsel dating before Seminary. It is pointless, liable to hurt both of you, and dangerous. The priests who suggest this show poor understanding of human nature. The attraction of the sexes is natural. A vocation is supernatural. A priestly or religious vocation places one in an objectively higher state the married state. If you are inclined to enter the priesthood, do not waste time, and play with some poor girl's heart "testing" a vocation. You "test your vocation" (if that is even a thing) at the Seminary, or in consultation with your spiritual director / vocations director.
If you are in the USA, more information at vocations@sspx.org
@@SSPX Thanks a lot. I was a bit scared that before entering the seminary I would be obligated to act against myself and simultaneously "test the other vocation" and try not to hurt the other person. I'm from Poland, so I need to start learning german (nearest SSPX seminary is in Zaitzkofen) and in a year start preparatory year in SSPX. Again thank you very much. God bless.
@@szymon4930 Pozdrawiam rodaka. 😊 Bogu dzięki za twoje powołanie. ✝️🙏 Dobrze, że wybrałeś Bractwo. W modernistycznym seminarium można stracić wiarę.
Thanks father for your open words.
God bless you and your effort to reach as many (young) guys as possible...
I heard from a person, to not make any failure , s.o. felt a big responsibility for the other person and because of fear to be "wrong" for this person s.o. avoided to get closer to s.o. else.... Or is that behaviour only caused by fear to get hurt ?
Dear Beate,
It is hard to say without knowing you. But in general - dating is a "calculated risk". In itself there is always the danger of weakness leading to a moral failure. If that happens, you re-establish sane boundaries, and try to respect the boundaries established together. If someone consistently pushes through your boundaries, it is a sign that they do not respect you and that is not a healthy relationship.
It is subject to prudence. You find a man you judge to be worthy of trust and you spend time with him to establish whether you want to marry each other. You know that dating always involves some risk, but that is not a reason to avoid it altogether. You can fortify yourself against falls by a strong life of prayer and sacramental life, as well as by the use of prudence, and establishing good, clear, concrete boundaries.
It can be hard to trust. Nearly everyone on planet earth these days has "trust issues". That is why we would allow a certain time to date, it gives you time to develop trust little by little and to verify that the man is indeed worthy of that trust.
At the end of the day, if you actively and corrupt the morals of another, intentionally so - that is on you (and on him, but to a lesser degree, if he falls through weakness, not malice). If someone else pressures you into moral compromise, that is on them (and yes on you, you have the duty to make sure your boundaries are respected, or to get out of the relationship if they are consistently ignored). If you are both trying, but through weakness there is a fall, address it like adults, go to confession, examine what went wrong, identify the occasion and plan against it, and re-commit to living virtuously. In my opinion, perfectionism or black and white thinking can be the enemy here. You are pursuing a good - marriage. One isolated fall (from the fact that you are not perfect), in my opinion, need not be a sufficient reason to throw out an otherwise good relationship. But we never make peace with sin, obviously.
It can be tempting to mistrust oneself too much. In questions of purity, the Saints counsel a certain "mistrust of self". But I think when it comes to judging "I would inevitably corrupt him... and then I would be alone responsible and everything would be ruined..." that just sounds like fear and a lack of a certain healthy self-confidence. It could be corrected thus: "yes I have the wounds of Original Sin and the weakness of all humans. So I will be careful to pray throughout and keep strict guards around where, when and how we are together. May God and Our Lady help me to move towards marriage (which is a holy and virtuous state) safely and in a Christian manner. And if by frailty, I should fall, may they give me the grace to repent, correct and persevere in a holy Christian life."
Yes, dating contains an inherent risk, but it IS navigable in a virtuous way. And you cannot shoulder ALL the blame for any fall that may occur. If you want to get married, dating is part of the prudential means to ensure you find a good husband.
It may sound negative, but dating is a "necessary occasion of sin". It is necessary because you must use prudence to get to know someone, so that you know if it is prudent to marry that person or not. It is an occasion of sin, because spending time with someone you are attracted to always has its own inherent dangers (especially as regards holy purity). It need not (and indeed should not) be a proximate occasion of grave sin, if we use all the means of prudence - limiting contact to what is reasonable, avoiding being alone in private places, etc.
All of this is Fr. Franks' personal opinion, not some official SSPX statement.
I believe Fr Gardner is going to discuss the HOW of dating in a later episode.
In Christ,
Fr. P. Franks
I might have missed it, but what about kissing before marriage?
It's recommended by Father Ripperger to avoid it until betrothal, not making out but just simple non making out type kissing, because a man is supposed to defend your honor and if you break it off or he does, you want as little damage as possible to be caused from that detachment. It is NOT sinful to do so, but it is also not the most prudent because of the way we are wired as humans, both man and woman.
I would think kissing on the cheek would be okay, but not kissing on the lips until after marriage. We know where kissing on the lips leads to.
@@wilhelm1260 so its better not to, why not be as prudent as possible
I think Father will address the practicalities of dating as far as displays of affection in a future episode.
@@Stephen7764. Totally agree
Courtship :)
What about persons in their 60s who obviously would not get married to have children........is it wrong to be in a relationship for companionship only?
I think that as long as they are able to perform the marital act (children or not) it's not necessary to marry otherwise since the primary end of marriage is procreation. Only the birth of Christ was without the marital act.
I'm sure Abraham and Sarah, Zachariah and Elizabeth had to perform the marital act in order to bear Issac and St. John the Baptist respectively irrespective of their old age.
So they obviously need to get married with the intention of having children if God wills the miracle irrespective of menopause in the woman or a weaker fertility in the man.
It depends what you mean. Do you mean to get married? If you are both free to marry, and would be able to accomplish the act that defines marriage, then dating with a view to marriage could be fine.
There are secondary ends of marriage too. The primary end of marriage is the procreation and education of children. The secondary ends are mutual love and support between the spouses, including a quieting of concupiscence. All that is required of the married is that they use marriage such that, of its nature, it is the sort of act that (all things being equal) could lead to procreation. But the infertile, whether the infertility is on account of age or for another reason, are able to contract marriage.
"Nor are those considered as acting against nature who in the married state use their right in the proper manner although on account of natural reasons either of time or of certain defects, new life cannot be brought forth. For in matrimony as well as in the use of the matrimonial rights there are also secondary ends, such as mutual aid, the cultivating of mutual love, and the quieting of concupiscence which husband and wife are not forbidden to consider so long as they are subordinated to the primary end and so long as the intrinsic nature of the act is preserved." (Casti Conubii - www.vatican.va/content/pius-xi/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xi_enc_19301231_casti-connubii.html).
If you mean just spending a lot of time together, and physical romantic expressions, but not getting married, and not leading to marriage, then it would not be licit. This is especially the case if one or both is not free to marry (by reason of a divorce, when the lawful spouse is still living). At this point it would be an occasion of sin, free and with no proportionate justifying reason (i.e. you are not pursuing the good of marriage, so there is no reason to be in a close relation such that lapses against purity may result).
In Christ,
Fr. P. Franks
I expect this has nothing to do with properly fixing the date of Easter?
Courtship is also an occasion of sin. It is a modern invention. Arranged marriages are not based on emotional decisions. Arranged marriages are based on logic and reasoning. Arranged marriages are statistically proven to last lifelong, compared to non-arranged. God should be the one to arrange a marriage, and He has done this throughout history through parents. Look at the Bible. Look at the Saints. Look at statistics. Others know us better than we know ourselves. People don't make logical decisions when they are wrapped up in emotions
I go to a TLM, and some "traditional" CAtholic men are okay with bikinis and all this touchy feely stuff, and it's such a turn off..... is it impossible to find a good man, even in a TLM church? I tell myself I trust in God, but I feel disheartened.
Catholic men ask themselves the same thing. It's probably since Adam and Eve that people would ask themselves "where have all the good men/women gone".
When you say TLM, do you mean SSPX? Because other TLM communities have different orientations especially the Ecclesia Dei communities like FSSP, ICKSP and the like. I'm sure the men at SSPX Chapels are solid but yes, maybe a few can be corrupted since we can't be sure of their formation. Remember, some of these men were Novus Ordo, so they are probably not converted yet. It's really difficult to find a born Traditional Catholic with such mindset. Thank you
I am sorry to hear that! I will say a prayer for you. Don't give up - pray to St. Joseph, and keep trying to develop the virtues that will enable you to offer the most to your family, when you find someone.
This may be one of those indications that there is more to Traditional Catholicism than merely the Traditional Latin Mass. Some churches offer the TLM, but without the integrity of Catholic doctrine and without trying to guard the fullness of a Catholic culture that surrounds the Mass. This can be an issue especially where the priest does not have a Traditional formation, says the New Mass also, etc. This is essentially a TLM transplanted into a "Novus Ordo culture". It is one of the SSPX's reservations about certain Latin Masses offered by priests who did not receive a Traditional formation.
There could be a case of people brought up in the diocesan Catholic world, who discover the TLM but hardly know better as regards modesty and how to go about dating, since they have never been properly instructed or formed. There could also be the case of properly formed Traditionalists who DO know better, but are just not trying to live their Faith consistently (i.e. they got liberal and there is no one calling them out for it). Neither is ideal...
You are right to insist on clear and sane boundaries. Our general advice is to be careful not to be alone in private with someone you are dating, and that is big protection against things getting out of control. Obviously if we avoid passionate kissing, the chances of improper touch are very much reduced. Have confidence to insist that men treat you with respect, and that means respecting the boundaries you establish. If they don't respect that, they show you how much they value you, and they do not deserve any more of your time, obviously.
There ARE good men out there! If they have a fully Traditional formation (e.g. came through an SSPX school) they do at least know what they SHOULD be doing. I do not go so far as to say that each of our young men is living his Faith with the full consistency and generosity that would be ideal - humans still always have free-will. But there are a good number of young men who really are trying hard to live good Catholic lives, even if they are beset with the normal human frailty.
Please be assured of my prayers and Courage!
In Christ,
Fr. P. Franks
I forget who said this (I believe it was a traditional priest), but someone said that many "trads" are actually Catholics who love the smells and the bells and other outward signs of tradition but who are actually NO Catholics in belief/practice.
Everything is a matter of discernment, and discernment of a person or situation can be a gradual and ongoing process, not a one-time effort. So you cannot assume that the seemingly devout lady or gentleman you see regularly at Sunday and Holy Day Masses of the SSPX or others actually believes in authentic Catholic teaching and Tradition. I would think those who wish to follow authentic Church teaching are more likely to be at an SSPX church (if available to them) than that of other religious orders and diocesan TLM Masses; however, I wouldn't count on that, but would rather pray to God and ask Him for proper discernment of any potential mate, regardless of where he or she attends Mass.
Now, this isn't to be confused with someone's past life before whatever happened to motivate them to come to Tradition. They might have honest intent to learn and follow authentic Church teaching, but it might take awhile for someone of honest intent to unlearn sinful practices acquired during their lives prior to their conversions to Tradition, but they must be open and willing to make that conversion.
In my own case as example, even just a few years ago, I thought it was a little too much to ask that those dating or engaged should not kiss on the lips. Now? No. As I said elsewhere, we know where that leads.
👍👍
Taking marital advice from this guy is like having your dentist teach you to fly an airplane.