Caution everyone taking cold climate heating advice from a southerner. I'm in zone 6a and there are products that work just fine without supplemental. Just to name a few, Mitsubishi hyper heat and Carrier high heat (HH) models. Hire a local PE to get what's best for you in your climate.
To be fair, this is not even advice in the first place, it’s just sales and marketing material that Matt keeps publishing on here for the suppliers who hook him up with all the freebies for his personal projects.
Thanks for the video. I recently installed a dual fuel heat pump running off a 95 % propane furnace for the backup heat. I live in the panhandle of Texas. The electric heat pump works well down to about 30° then I swap to the propane furnace. I only use about 200 gallons of propane each winter. The system works well. The old system had 25kw heat strips and would double my electric bill after running just a few days a month. The old system lasted 25 years though.
DannyFinley, I have a all electric home, 1,800 square feet in Portland Oregon, where it can reach 20F for a few nights per year, mostly around 30 - 45 in the winter. Propane is not a option for me. I selected a 4 ton Goodman single speed 14 SEER heat pump in 2014, because it has reasonable efficiency, and fairly low cost. Especially compared to the 20 KW electric furnace installed by the builder in 1994. To get 100,000 Btu's from a 14 SEER heat pump, that is about 8 KW. 20 SEER ductless heat pump about 5 KW. Older heat pumps, before the year 2000, they where R-22 and not effective below about 30F. But modern R-410 units are fine at 10F collecting heat. Ductless R-410 or R-32 units are even better, even collecting the full rated amount of heat at 5F. Electric heat is much more expensive, 30 KW per 100,000 Btu's. So if you pay $0.20 per KW, it is $1.60 for a ducted heat pump at 14 SEER, $1 for a 20 SEER ductless heat pump, or about 1.2 gallons of propane, so only about $2.40 while electric heat at 30 KW is $6. Oil heat is about 1 gallon of fuel oil (basically diesel fuel) so about $3 per gallon or 100,000 Btu's of heat into the home. I recommended a heat pump to my brother out in a rural area of Michigan. He has propane furnaces now, but if there is ever a time when delivery is restricted, he could then use the heat pump to provide some heat to his home until the next delivery time. I have worked on heat pumps where the indoor coil is above a gas furnace. They work great in the spring and fall. Even some winter, when it is above 20F, they will run at a lower cost per 100,000 Btu's of heat. Especially in Oregon, where electric rates are only $0.16 per KW.
Geothermal heat pumps are the way to go especially in cold weather. More upfront cost for the trenching or boring but a system that doesn’t use any fuel other than the electricity to run the equipment, and solar can offset that.
Totally agree! We just installed a water furnace system in our recently built home. Love it! Super comfortable. Easy maintenance. Should last decades instead of the standard equipment which fails after 10 years.
We're planning to do the same, but we're planning to build pretty far north so it wouldn't hurt to add in a backup on-demand heater to step in if it ever gets that dang cold or the heat pump craps out on the worst day of the decade. Planning on having a combo induction/propane range in the kitchen anyway, so it really wouldn't be much extra.
I am in Indiana so it gets down to single digits for about one week every year. Haven’t had any issues so far. The unit has electric resistance backup. I can pull up the energy usage on the smart thermostat and the electric hear almost never comes on. We keep the stat on 72.
Matt your calculations are completely off. The exhaust air temperature is higher than outside, in summer you're actually saving money by venting it out. In winter you would be better off with damper box and venting air inside the house. Humidity wouldn't be an issue as it's very low in winter and most houses struggle to keep it up in comfortable range. The other aspect is lifetime costs, those heat pump dryers are expensive, less reliable and expensive to fix. Don't ask how I know it. If you run calculator you'll see that gas dryer with damper box which you switch at the start and end of heating season is a clear winner good luck.
Both Carrier and Mitsubishi/Trane will sell you 100% heating capacity down to 5° F , making petroleum functionally obsolete for most Americans. It then becomes a question of what you're willing to pay for now vs later. The same discussion of the benefits of old-tech heat pumps we've been having for what? 30-40 years (and in this same video!) will eventually extend to high heat models. It's very weird that Carrier is cited as the source in one of the slides here for claiming cold climate heat humps can't heat well below the high 20s F, when that just not true. As always, with any information, _consider the source_ :)
You have to realize that in some areas, like where I live in central/eastern Washington, gas is super expensive and our electricity is inexpensive (cheapest in the nation). There are other places that are the opposite. People in my area are not using gas unless it is for a fire pit or bbq.
I'm planning the mother of hybrid heating systems for a small off grid house: Two wood stoves for the most primitive, carbon neutral, heating source in the depth of winter in cloudy North Idaho. Radiant floor heating off of the propane tankless water heater used for winter time when the stove runs down. A mini split heat pump driven off of solar power and batteries, if there is sun shine available. A propane generator, to charge the batteries and run the mini split, if the weather is mild but cloudy. And a heat pump water heater for use in 3 seasons, which can preheat heat the water for the propane tankless water heater. Finally, install ground loops whenever I dig trenches, to preheat the air flowing past the mini split. Yes, I'm a PhD engineer who thinks this is like the most major tool purchase I'll ever do in my life! And I was always thrilled to convince myself that it was justified to buy a tool for a project.
@@LeanHVAC Closed yesterday on the property and today got delivery of a big chunk of the equipment from the solar system prior to any potential tariffs. I'll have at least some of the panels up and oriented by fall so I should start getting practical data on the Dec-Feb critical heating season. The ground loop stuff probably won't happen until the winter after next. During the winter of 2025-2026, I'll probably have to buy seasoned firewood, and take sponge baths! Or retreat to Colorado.
Seems to me, the simplest solution is a heat pump cycling fluid through a hot water tank, and a propane/NG on-demand boiler to back it up with some backflow preventer valves and one extra pump. Just put a temp sensor on the outlet of the tank going to the in floor hydronic manifold and, if the temp gets more than a few degrees below whatever the set point is, kick on a water pump to start pushing fluid through the boiler, which automatically kicks on due to the flow. Doesn't matter what the weather is doing, doesn't need an uplink to the hive-mind with unknown cybersecurity practices, doesn't use proprietary communication protocols, doesn't even need a smart thermostat. Barely need anything more than a relay. The heat pump just does its thing, and the boiler automatically steps in if the heat pump struggles to keep up or fails outright.
Caution everyone taking cold climate heating advice from a southerner. I'm in zone 6a and there are products that work just fine without supplemental. Just to name a few, Mitsubishi hyper heat and Carrier high heat (HH) models. Hire a local PE to get what's best for you in your climate.
Exactly, there is no need for propane with a modern heat pump.
@@apalrd8588 Except if/when your only heat source craps out, which seems to only ever happen when you need it most. Never hurts to have a backup.
There is a need for supplementary heating when you live in the actual cold. Like when your in zone 2-4 like a lot of Canadians
To be fair, this is not even advice in the first place, it’s just sales and marketing material that Matt keeps publishing on here for the suppliers who hook him up with all the freebies for his personal projects.
@@apalrd8588 agreed, that Aquecoil thing looks cool though. If I needed heat strips, I'd definitely prefer the Aquecoil.
Thanks for the video. I recently installed a dual fuel heat pump running off a 95 % propane furnace for the backup heat. I live in the panhandle of Texas. The electric heat pump works well down to about 30° then I swap to the propane furnace. I only use about 200 gallons of propane each winter. The system works well. The old system had 25kw heat strips and would double my electric bill after running just a few days a month. The old system lasted 25 years though.
DannyFinley, I have a all electric home, 1,800 square feet in Portland Oregon, where it can reach 20F for a few nights per year, mostly around 30 - 45 in the winter. Propane is not a option for me. I selected a 4 ton Goodman single speed 14 SEER heat pump in 2014, because it has reasonable efficiency, and fairly low cost. Especially compared to the 20 KW electric furnace installed by the builder in 1994.
To get 100,000 Btu's from a 14 SEER heat pump, that is about 8 KW. 20 SEER ductless heat pump about 5 KW. Older heat pumps, before the year 2000, they where R-22 and not effective below about 30F. But modern R-410 units are fine at 10F collecting heat. Ductless R-410 or R-32 units are even better, even collecting the full rated amount of heat at 5F.
Electric heat is much more expensive, 30 KW per 100,000 Btu's. So if you pay $0.20 per KW, it is $1.60 for a ducted heat pump at 14 SEER, $1 for a 20 SEER ductless heat pump, or about 1.2 gallons of propane, so only about $2.40 while electric heat at 30 KW is $6. Oil heat is about 1 gallon of fuel oil (basically diesel fuel) so about $3 per gallon or 100,000 Btu's of heat into the home.
I recommended a heat pump to my brother out in a rural area of Michigan. He has propane furnaces now, but if there is ever a time when delivery is restricted, he could then use the heat pump to provide some heat to his home until the next delivery time.
I have worked on heat pumps where the indoor coil is above a gas furnace. They work great in the spring and fall. Even some winter, when it is above 20F, they will run at a lower cost per 100,000 Btu's of heat. Especially in Oregon, where electric rates are only $0.16 per KW.
Geothermal heat pumps are the way to go especially in cold weather. More upfront cost for the trenching or boring but a system that doesn’t use any fuel other than the electricity to run the equipment, and solar can offset that.
Totally agree! We just installed a water furnace system in our recently built home. Love it! Super comfortable. Easy maintenance. Should last decades instead of the standard equipment which fails after 10 years.
We're planning to do the same, but we're planning to build pretty far north so it wouldn't hurt to add in a backup on-demand heater to step in if it ever gets that dang cold or the heat pump craps out on the worst day of the decade. Planning on having a combo induction/propane range in the kitchen anyway, so it really wouldn't be much extra.
I am in Indiana so it gets down to single digits for about one week every year. Haven’t had any issues so far. The unit has electric resistance backup. I can pull up the energy usage on the smart thermostat and the electric hear almost never comes on. We keep the stat on 72.
Matt your calculations are completely off. The exhaust air temperature is higher than outside, in summer you're actually saving money by venting it out.
In winter you would be better off with damper box and venting air inside the house. Humidity wouldn't be an issue as it's very low in winter and most houses struggle to keep it up in comfortable range.
The other aspect is lifetime costs, those heat pump dryers are expensive, less reliable and expensive to fix. Don't ask how I know it.
If you run calculator you'll see that gas dryer with damper box which you switch at the start and end of heating season is a clear winner good luck.
Both Carrier and Mitsubishi/Trane will sell you 100% heating capacity down to 5° F , making petroleum functionally obsolete for most Americans. It then becomes a question of what you're willing to pay for now vs later.
The same discussion of the benefits of old-tech heat pumps we've been having for what? 30-40 years (and in this same video!) will eventually extend to high heat models. It's very weird that Carrier is cited as the source in one of the slides here for claiming cold climate heat humps can't heat well below the high 20s F, when that just not true.
As always, with any information, _consider the source_ :)
You have to realize that in some areas, like where I live in central/eastern Washington, gas is super expensive and our electricity is inexpensive (cheapest in the nation). There are other places that are the opposite. People in my area are not using gas unless it is for a fire pit or bbq.
Real life hank hill.
I'm planning the mother of hybrid heating systems for a small off grid house: Two wood stoves for the most primitive, carbon neutral, heating source in the depth of winter in cloudy North Idaho. Radiant floor heating off of the propane tankless water heater used for winter time when the stove runs down. A mini split heat pump driven off of solar power and batteries, if there is sun shine available. A propane generator, to charge the batteries and run the mini split, if the weather is mild but cloudy. And a heat pump water heater for use in 3 seasons, which can preheat heat the water for the propane tankless water heater. Finally, install ground loops whenever I dig trenches, to preheat the air flowing past the mini split. Yes, I'm a PhD engineer who thinks this is like the most major tool purchase I'll ever do in my life! And I was always thrilled to convince myself that it was justified to buy a tool for a project.
PhD? That’s what I call an over engineer…same goes for your proposed “carbon neutral” setup!
@@jezza6575 Thank you!
Please try and document all the data you get and your processes! Fascinating
@@LeanHVAC Closed yesterday on the property and today got delivery of a big chunk of the equipment from the solar system prior to any potential tariffs. I'll have at least some of the panels up and oriented by fall so I should start getting practical data on the Dec-Feb critical heating season. The ground loop stuff probably won't happen until the winter after next. During the winter of 2025-2026, I'll probably have to buy seasoned firewood, and take sponge baths! Or retreat to Colorado.
Keep researching until you simplify.
Seems to me, the simplest solution is a heat pump cycling fluid through a hot water tank, and a propane/NG on-demand boiler to back it up with some backflow preventer valves and one extra pump. Just put a temp sensor on the outlet of the tank going to the in floor hydronic manifold and, if the temp gets more than a few degrees below whatever the set point is, kick on a water pump to start pushing fluid through the boiler, which automatically kicks on due to the flow. Doesn't matter what the weather is doing, doesn't need an uplink to the hive-mind with unknown cybersecurity practices, doesn't use proprietary communication protocols, doesn't even need a smart thermostat. Barely need anything more than a relay. The heat pump just does its thing, and the boiler automatically steps in if the heat pump struggles to keep up or fails outright.
the number of mid roll ads on youtube make this unwatchable. when im watching what amounts to an informercial, i don't need to see more ads.
Propane and propane accessories
Propane is as expensive as electric resistance heat in many areas.
So what type of system is best freddie arctic, where the temperatures can get down to fifty sixty below zero
On the part with ground under the ice, or the part with water under the ice?