What Will Ruin Model Railroading (Hint: It's not what you think)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 ก.ย. 2024
- I welcome comments, and don't usually respond to any given one with a full video. But this one set me off a little bit...
Hope this doesn't drive too many people off.
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Took over my dad's vast Lionel collection and Atlas N scale collection. We built a small 4x8 O scale layout and an L shaped 2x6 N scale layout. With all of the accessories, my 7th grade son taught himself how to solder... Love it. He's always searching Ebay for used cars, houses, lights. If we can expose them to something other than their phones good things can happen.
Absolutely! Glad to hear you've made a convert!
I've been an active model railroader for 55 years. It has always been a rich man's hobby, but I go to train shows and see that children are still fascinated with model railroad equipment. The interest is still there. The problem is that kids usually don't have much of a budget to work with. Same with young married people. So you start small and work your way up.
Agreed. You probably can’t have everything you want (or maybe even need) right away. It took me quite a while to build up the collection of tools that I needed to do a lot of my modeling. But if you buy a little at a time (and take care of it) it’ll last you a good long time, and maybe even outlast you.
All hobbies cost “more” money than they did in the past. An AM transitor radio cost under $6 in the 60s when I was a teenager. We used it of course to listen to music. A pair of bluetooth air pods cost over $100! Add the monthly charge for internet and another charge for your favorite music app. No, the complaint is unrealistic.
About a year or two ago, I was really serious about switching from HO to O. While I didn’t have much room for anything but a _small_ O switching layout, I started selling a LOT of my old Athearn “blue box” and MDC/Roundhouse cars, all with Kadee couplers and wheels, light weathering, for $5, at a local model railroad club. A few cars even had NWSL wheels in them. Athearn trucks were replaced with MDC trucks-Athearn trucks of that era were terribly wide for Kadee wheels but adding washers to the axles looked awful so they were replaced. (I wasn’t a member but I knew several people.) I remarked to one of those members, “I don’t know how people get into this hobby when everything is so expensive!”. He replied, “It’s people like you who sell decent equipment at a low price.”, He was right.
I never made the transition to O scale and regretted selling those cars but I know they’re going to good homes and there’s a good chance I’ll see them running when that club has their Open House this year.
Who knows? Maybe I’ll find cars just like the ones I sold and create better versions by adding proper trucks, see through roofwalks, brass brake wheels, etc..
My next (and final?) layout will be arm pit high and only 18”-24” wide. It’ll be a great opportunity to build a few really detailed cars that I’ll actually see the details. I’m looking forward to it!
cause of budget and lack of space all my model railroad stuff in a box collecting dust
@@roberthoppock5349 I find lack of space to be much more of a problem than budget. For HO you need a dedicated room and for O a basement. No wonder N is becoming the most. popular scale. All it takes is a small closet to keep a reasonable layout.
I’m 35 and just now getting back into the hobby after leaving it 20 years ago for school, college and starting my career. I came back and I am thoroughly impressed with the level of detail as well as the DCC and sound aspects. When I left I had no idea what DCC and sound was but now that im back I am definitely investing in the DCC and Sound because I want that realism. Yes, it’s expensive but for me it’s worth it. I want that ultra realistic layout where you have a hard time figuring out if it’s a model or not. The static grass and other realistic scenery is so much better than that green powder people used to use as “grass.” Im a firm believer in you get what you pay for. I am still in the workforce so I don’t have all the time in the world; I also don’t have all the money either but honestly I’m willing to work overtime to get the locomotives I want. Keeps me motivated. I don’t think the hobby is dying. Honestly I think it’s better than it used to be. Technology has made it more interesting in my opinion. The way these companies keep coming out with better details, lights, and sounds for their locomotives, they’re gonna have me on the hook for awhile. 😅
Your assessment is spot on! If you insert "RC Airplanes" instead of trains, you just described another hobby with the
same attributes. You don't have to be a national scale model builder or rivet counter to enjoy the hobby. There are so
many eras, models, buildings, etc. to choose from that you will find a niche that suits your interests. You forgot to \
mention online auctions and swap shops where you can get deals on engines, rolling stock, and other items that you
don't need to be a millionaire to buy what you need. Keep up the good work!
A couple of people have mentioned RC planes. Glad I never got into that hobby!
I was a professional model painter in the 70's and 80's and did mostly brass. S.P passenger equipment was my passion. I was among the "rivet counters" and I would paint brass passenger cars for guys who imported them and trade paint jobs for cars.
When I was a kid, Soho brass cars were the first cars that I can recall that we thought were the bee's knees. Then they kept getting more detailed and more detailed until today they are unbelievably like their prototypes. Today, for example, you can get the Espee cars that were rebuilt with stainless sides and a red stripe. You would have had to do a lot of scratch building to simulate them back then. Now, the model version is incredible. This effect was impossible many years ago. Bu an HO S.P train of those cars today would set you back a month's pay.
Simultaneous to the brass getting better and costlier, plastic cars got more detailed. Walthers and Athearn passenger equipment rivals the best of earlier brass cars. I have a plastic City of San Francisco and am very happy with it. I knew a guy when I was a kid who had an Athearn Super Chief with their old cars painted silver and Warbonnet F's. It wasn't accurate but it was fun. Just fun. No rivet counting, just fun. I've often felt that American Fl,yer and Lionel toy trains were actually more fun because you just enjoyed them as trains.
Those Lionel and AF trains did allow you to just run without much fuss, but there are probably as many definitions of what’s fun in the hobby as there are hobbyists. 🙂
This is a good point. It is also why clubs can do so well. Guy loves rolling stock and he gets to build them. I love scenery, and buildings, so I literally was given kits to build for the layout. Then there is the guy that loves to run trains. Well I think that is all of us, but you have that one guy who loves running a fast clock etc. They have a place too.
Straight out of box, the DCC with sound locomotives are much more detailed then they used to be. Even rolling stock has gotten better. I love building rolling stock and there are tons of really good kits out there that produce a high quality car. No need to search for add ons.
Great video. My first on your channel. I like your defense of the hobby. Everyone starts somewhere, kids learn to earn to reach their hobby goals. Keep showing them how. Master hobbyists have a lot to offer to the next generation. I learned years ago “Don’t budget for others on your wallet. You don’t know their means.”
Glad you found the channel! I’m happy to defend the hobby and share with people what I know.
Ha ha what a joke, Ebay is flooded with nice cheap models, and no one ever said you had to buy the most expensive models. Also take your time to model, and collect up stuff over years rather than complaining about prices. I buy both expensive and cheap stuff, it all depends on a particular months pay or most of the time, what model or road name is available. A few years ago I tried to humble a couple bully's in our hobby, and it ended up doing more harm to me than them, because I suck with words sometimes lol. Very well said Joe, and you are a great model railroader, don't let anyone tell you otherwise. Dave B.
Glad to have you back, Dave, it's been a while! Trust me, on this one I spent some time to put my thoughts together (a few days) because if I had responded as soon as it came in, it would have been a lot less eloquent and a lot more... aggressive, shall we say! 😃
2:16 So true. My sentiments exactly. Appreciate your candor.
Candor isn’t usually an issue with me! 🙂
Well said. Another modeler recently did a whole price comparison of the model prices in the past verse today. The findings were similar to yours. You do get more for your money at the high end and the low end keeps up with inflation. I will say it again though, things seem more expensive now because we spend our money on more things. We didn’t have smartphones, wireless fees, Wi-Fi, streaming, etc. Just think of how much you spend on technology alone today verse back in the days of one cable bill and one phone bill. Our budget is spread thinner. We travel more too. We just have less money left to spend on hobbies. That doesn’t mean you can’t do a lot with little though as this channel has emphasized time and time again.
Great video and insight.
Thanks, John. It's a good point. Lot of money spent on tech these days.
As one of the younger “kids” (26) in the hobby, I don’t think it’s dying, it’s more or less evolving, for better or worse, that’s one decision, to me I think it’s getting better, the amount of verity between locomotive, freight and passenger cars, and buildings and signals, and with the help of 3D printing, things that the older guys had to spend days to weeks, if not, months or years to build, has become incredibly easy. For those who say it’s getting expensive, I would have to disagree, even for someone like me where money can be pretty tight, I can still afford one or two engines a year or 3-8 freight cars on average.
I will say that even though I’ve been in this hobby for my whole life (on and off), yes there will be a few of those guys that don’t want to help the newer generation, but they are very few and far between, most of the folks I’ve meet, weather that be here on TH-cam or Facebook, have been excellent and very helpful and very inspirational, for interest, there are several buildings that will go on my layout that were never made in HO, so one guy told me to scratch build them, and I have and many others have wanted me to share how I built it, however I just lost my motivation right when I was going to.
The last time I went to a train show, a lot of us here on TH-cam was saying the same thing, “we think the hobby is dying, there’s not many young people in the hobby anymore”. I went to the hobby show later that year and I think there was more kids there then actual adults.
This is one of those subjects that can get me kinda upset cause to me it just sounds like some, not all, of the older modelers just don’t want to help the younger modelers or future generations or they just think that the younger ones won’t have interest in it and they think they are wasting their time, it’s gonna happen, it’s like a job, could you do this everyday even if you was getting paid, I highly doubt it. It’s a part of life, you will get burned out and want to take a break.
I just realized that this is the most I’ve written. 😂 Thanks for sharing!
Most modelers I know, regardless of age, are more than willing to help out people who are younger or not as skilled. (Not me, of course, I not helping nobody! 😉) but I have run across those people who are arrogant, condescending and/or insulting who can’t fathom that it’s that attitude that drives the younger or more inexperienced crowd away. No one started in this hobby as an expert. But some people forget that.
The only problem with model railroading is that Bachman got rid of Spectrum. Good looking, good running, cheap pricing. It’s what got my grandpa into the hobby and then got me hooked. Money restraints are amplified by space restraints. I don’t want to buy an engine with DCC for $90 more just because it’s the only option.
Yeah, I can’t figure Bachmann out. First they make Spectrum, then they don’t and then they do it again and then shelve it again. Weird.
Well said. I'd like to add to what you said with a few points.
FIRST, I've been a model railroader for almost 60 years now - that's about half of the hobby lifetime you estimated - and I got my start with a Christmas present; specifically, a Varney HO scale train set running on a loop of sectional track. I would be willing to bet that a huge percentage of model railroaders got their start the same - with a gift. It's true that very few kids today could afford to buy their own starter set, but that has always been true.
SECOND, back in the 1960s, Model Railroader magazine ran a series of articles about how to super detail a brass locomotive, specifically a Big Boy. I still recall one of the many indignant letters they published. It started: "Get real! Who can afford $99 for a Big Boy? And if they could, why would they go soldering more stuff on it?" High end locomotives have always been beyond the means of many modelers, but we love to dream about them anyway.
THIRD, over the past 50+ years, I have noticed a big swing away from kits and toward ready-to-run. The days of the Athearn "blue box" kit are gone, but there are still a few manufacturers - Accurail comes to mind - who sell low-end kits for a reasonable price (a $2.95 kit in 1965 would cost about $23 today; compare with the current retail price of $21.) At any rate, I believe that the supply is driven by the demand: many modelers don't want to build kits - they want ready-to-run. That's great, but one shouldn't blame market forces for changes in the hobby.
FOURTH, balancing this is the huge profusion of laser-cut wooden kits available in all scales at prices ranging fro $20 to $400. These laser-cut kits represent an intermediate stage between plastic kits and scatchbuilding that was never before available. This is due to the improved technology you touched on.
FINALLY, because the hobby is so mature, there is a HUGE supply of used equipment available, often at very reasonable prices. Modelers who are willing to invest a little time and effort tinkering (I think that was the word you used) with this second-hand equipment can save a lot of money and have that old-style fun at the same time. There is a lot of satisfaction to be had in starting with a freight car that cost $2, spending some money to replace missing parts, spray on a new coat of paint, and apply some decals to get a first-class model.
Thanks for this. Don't get me wrong, I'm not against tinkering or even starting with the $5 pile of parts I mentioned. My point was that expecting that to be the "normal" place for kids to start is misguided, IMO. I regularly take cars--even if they are/were RTR--and add decals (usually wheel dots, ACI plates, and consolidated stencils) to make them more realistic and appropriate for my area. I sill have Athearn blue box, Roundhouse, and Accurail kits in my collection to build, and they're great. But on the flip side, I'm not good with motors, so the likelihood that I'm going to buy a cheap loco that isn't running fixed up is pretty small. 🙂
I imagine a large part of the problem is lack of awareness of the hobby, and the lack of retail outlets. As a baby boomer, Bachmann, Life Like, and Tyco train sets (and their doppelgänger, slot car sets) could be seen and purchased everywhere. Department stores, toy stores, drug stores, hobby shops, and of course the ubiquitous Christmas catalog. Nowadays, you would be hard pressed to find a toy or model train (other than Thomas) anyplace other than on Amazon. Also, how many kids today see model trains running anywhere other than a train show? Out of sight, out of mind. So it is an uphill battle for the hearts and minds of youngsters, especially nowadays when attention spans are shorter and the availability of instant gratification from a train simulator on a computer.
Awareness has gone down, both of the model availablility as well as in the prototype. There are fewer trains now, they’re hidden away by grade crossing reductions and the railroads being no longer friendly to rail fans. So it’s a combination, I think.
Bravo, bravo!! I'm right there in your corner. I don't think of this video as a rant, but as a very good statement of COMMON SENSE, which most of us know is no longer common. I'm a 77 yro kid who is still enthralled with model railroads as I was in my earlier youth. I simply enjoying watching my trains run and will 'til I'm gone. On it's LAST LEGS? Balderdash! BTW, seeing this video has made me a new subscriber. Keep up the good work
Glad to have you along!
When I finally managed to get my hands on Bowser RS-3's, I was a little unhappy with the price. However, after I heard the story of what it took to get the manufacturing done, I was thankful to get them at all. There are a lot of the older model railroaders passing on, and there are great deals to be had if you hear about those sales.
As hobbies go, model railroading is one of the more affordable. Project cars, and range days are vastly more expensive.
Not to mention things like boats, flying an airplane, hobby automobiles, and racing cars. Hobbies that make or save money are those that produce life's basic necessities. These include, gardening, cooking, sewing, home improvement, camping, and basic fishing, raising chickens. and in some cases hunting, especially prepping.
Okay this misses a big point. Most of us started back when things were affordable and if we are honest our layouts and rolling stock lacked a whole bunch of detail. Also a point glossed over is that Athearn Locos and rolling stock did not require much tinkering to run on a layout. AHM/Riverossi? They have and still do require tinkering and a bit of knowledge to operate reliably. But I know Bachman and Tyco locomotives were fairly reliable and good thing as parts were scarce. Athearn parts were always easy to come by, so if something broke it could be replaced and was easy to do. Compared to the super detailed and high tech offerings today that call for a high price and a big learning curve or a tech to fix. Not at all like the old Blue Box kits. And if people are honest they will admit that the cheaper stuff helped get them into the hobby and as they learned more and did more detailed work followed. Non of us started with expensive super detailed equipment, and it always came later. I build trucks in scale and have watched the prices on them keep going higher and higher. While many are awesome models out of the gate, the price would easily deter a beginner. I am not knocking the video, but disagree that it is not more expensive to get into it than it was when most of us started. I have found that the best move I ever made was buying up a bunch of cheaper priced models and holding on to them. I do buy stuff now but I also am budget conscious also and often let stuff go by as I cannot justify the price of it. Be well and enjyy, but remember we all started in a place where all the whiz-bang was not needed and we learned and had a ball.
Fair point about Athearn equipment. It always did run pretty well out of the box.
Remember what destroyed the Baseball card hobby?.... The Model Railroading equivalent of that is too many scales and gauges!💯
I’m not sure it’s the same, though. It’s not like there has been a rash of new scales introduced.
@@ThePixelDepotLLC It is though, not only are there progressively smaller scales now like Z then ZZ then T, for every scale some people will use a smaller scale track so they can have a narrow gauge version. Also don't forget, that with about 200 years of railroading you can have a lot of equipment from one era that looks wrong with equipment from another era. This of course is only going to get worse in the future.
First time I've seen your channel and found the points made valid and exactly the same on my side of the Atlantic. The is also a tendency on SM for so called 'serious' modellers to berate the leading manufacturer - Hornby in my case - for offering less detailed, and cheaper models. In the UK, Hornby is the only option for starter sets that are available in non specialist retail outlets and will be the starting point for many new model railway enthusiasts. Bachmann do offer some start sets here but I have never seen one for sale outside of a model shop or show. No other UK outline manufacturer offers starter sets but do attract people back to the hobby with some wonderfully detailed models. In my view, one of the biggest threats to the hobby (in the UK) would be the disappearance of Hornby and the lack of a visible entry level option.
Glad you found me! Hopefully Hornby’s market is strong enough to keep it around despite the detractors.
Growing up in the 1970s, I didn't know I was a boomer but here I am at 65 and with plenty of disposable income. Maybe a 65-year-old back then didn't mind buying a brass steam locomotive but my lawn mowing money could only afford low-res, high-volume, plastic. Today I can afford any of the latest HO locos but still haven't, and likely won't, pull the trigger. Instead, I'm looking for used bargains I can fiddle with and hopefully make run and look presentable. I am less interested in rivet counting than I am operating. I don't want to spend thousands of dollars on motive power and rolling stock. My thriftiness probably isn't the target audience of today's manufacturers. It's more likely those that will spend whatever it takes to get their latest offering. This doesn't make me bitter or upset. If I was a manufacturer, I'd probably do the same thing.
Thank you for the thought-provoking video.
Thank you Joe for your common sense response to a real concern in the hobby.
YES.. My first set was 1976 Tyco Bicentennial I got for Christmas . after a quick month on one 4 X 8 sheet of plywood wasn't enough ..it was transformed on to two 4 X 8 sheets in a L shape...I was still in grammar school at the time and every cent I made from my paper route or snow shoveling went into it. The price has gotten out of hand as are most toys of today. . Video games and the cell phone are the only things of importance today. Like most industries...supply and demand isn't common now...the need goes down the price never does...you have to charge more because you're not re-cooping the profits. Kids today cant wait 2 minutes let alone 2 years to build something and then play with it...thats why the hobby is for adults at this level...your showing them what you built when you were a kid 30 -40 years ago... I stared in 1976..but after high school , cars were more important, then a job , house and family... I haven't been in a toy store or hobby shop in years.. I never see on tv, even a hints at model trains, bicycles or even die cast cars for that matter.. Its all video games or phone upgrades...My set is in boxes in my dads garage, he used to fine the tress on the floor after the glue dried up and they fell off.. Its gonna take buying a new house for me to even get them down from his garage.. My house now is too small and way to late in life to make it a permanent fixture...
You dont have to buy the expensive models. It can still be done on a budget if that is what you want to do. Whatever floats your boat. Don’t be hatin tho
Absolutely. There’s no need for that.
The flood of used equipment will increase which will reduce the entry level prices for the older generation of models. This makes entry cheaper.
Of course, the experience here in Australia differs in some respects to that in the USA and probably the UK - unfortunately, there has been a prevailing view in society that Railway Modellers (Railway Enthusiasts too) are odd ie. Gay or paedophiles or extremely eccentric at best - not helped by portrayals on TV as such ie. The mass murderer in TV drama has a model railway! Nonetheless, costs have increased. No doubt. No arguments. But do has detail and quality, not to mention the technology too! And, the demographic has changed markedly. I have met many young railway enthusiasts who have never dabbled in railway modelling nor do they subscribe to magazines but take their info from the internet and fellow Enthusiasts etc. For my generation, railway modelling led to railway enthusiasm that helped along the modelling but this no longer seems the case today . ? However we do no have a range of companies producing a range of Australian prototype in a range of scales that was a mere like dream only 30 years ago so I doubt the hobby is dying.... What I do see us a tendency to market the hobby so that the focus is buying locomotives and that is expensive!! I too have been guilty of that. There is also a tendency for hobbyists here in Australia to buy .. buy ... buy, but then never build their own layout - they join a club and run their trains on the club layout, relying on the true modeller in the club, to build and maintain the railway racetrack for them to enjoy, and that is sad.. unfortunately I have no idea what the solution is? But I have learnt that my rural Branchline only needs a few locomotives etc and thus costs have been kept comparatively manageable for now but temptation is often hard to resist!!
You have to have the space to have a great layout.
I feel like the railroad press make people believe that, but I think you can have a great layout in a much smaller area (depending on your preferred operating style). See my series on “The Grunge”. th-cam.com/video/sTP4FXpX_r0/w-d-xo.html
Quality is subjective to the pocket, same with branch of hobby. Like ships? Thousands to choose from, from Roman merchants, to Gerald R Ford class super carriers & everything in between. You only get diversity once you look smaller. Where the variety fails the hobby is in the price bracket. Locomotive access should not be limited to the used market, no-one should have to spend money to go to the club in the next town up (with prices as they are). Ever think of that? There's a video floating around these turbulent seas that talks about this. Light's electronics, motors, & everything else adds up. The hobby is NOT as diverse & vibrant as you think. Those data charts, & roster lists are not the full picture. Look at how many ships, trucks, tanks, cars, diggers, and other items (be it a vehicle or a structure) there are compared to yet another ES44. Everyone with main-line ops has one of several engines, but no-body has the SP diesel hydraulic Locomotives. Very few have ships larger than a destroyer in displacement in 1:87, but in 1:76, there's at least a dozen ships larger than a destroyer. Variety fails the hobby. And so to do the lack of variable prices for NEW equipment, and own infrastructure. Last leg is a bit extreme, I personally think y'all are experiencing a period of blindness. Where y'all just say "hey Athearn, make this thing" and a year later it's available for pre-orders, and are blind to the overall conveyance of the help & advice given. Lime I mentioned in a reply, I freed up money leaving the hobby so that I could go to work, put food on the table, have heat, & water, have my insurances paid, registration paid, and live my life comfortably. Hopefully y'all wake up to it soon. I like the hobby don't get me wrong, but I loath when well-established folk say "oh well it's exceptable because X Y Z reasons). X Y & Z reasons are given without prospective in the basis of how much it costs with all the resource costs (monthly or one-time), and without prior knowledge of the unique restrictions one person may have other the other. One might have a hobby shop & club in town, the other have neither, one might have one or the other & another person could have to drive HOURS to one or the other. This hobby has some bold titles, but can't hold or adhere to any of them. This hobby is gatekept. And worse than military models, but better than sci-fi.
Ight imma take my leave. Feel free to disagree. I'd love to see what y'all see on your radar screens. Fair winds & following seas!
I appreciate the comment. I agree and disagree. There does seem to be a rut right now where the more modern locomotives are being run by every manufacturer many times. But, on the other hand, we've also recently gotten GP39-2s, GP40-2Ps, and other "smaller batch" models. At the end of the day, for the manufacturers it's still a business, and they need to produce items that will sell in enough volume to make a profit. On the other side of the coin is the recent proliferation of 3D printed models, which have the benefit of being able to be produced in smaller batches and therefore allow for more variation. Same seems to be happening with HO scale vehicles. There has been more variety (and licensed product) lately, but you're still not going to get a model of a car that sold only a few thousand. You might find it on a 3D print site, though. I have no crystal ball, but I do see 3D printing being a boon to the hobby and providing the level of variety that you desire.
It's all about the cost, and yes I can afford a 3000.00 engine,
I agree with you. Everything evolves.Model railroading has evolved under the influence of capitalism. It’s a hobby for people who can afford some luxury items in their lives. DCC and everything that goes with it isn’t cheap but neither is gaming on the xbox. People are welcome to buy old DC parts and have fun but the evolution of the modeling industry is way past that now. If you want to build a DCC layout, evolve yourself… earn enough money, work hard enough to earn the required income. I think that commenter was a snowflake millennial who feels entitled to the nicer things in life without earning anything.
To be fair, most hobbies are for people who can afford some luxury items.
I’m pretty sure the original commenter was older, based on their references to “the old timers back in the 90s”. 🙂
I’m 27 now and have always had a fascination with model trains. I can’t say that’s true with many others my age now but I got into the hobby young and even though I’ve been in and out of it though the years of school, college, and finding my career it’s never left me. I feel it’s a hobby of whatever you want to make of it regardless of budget. Model railroading will always be strong for those like myself that have had a lifelong fascination with trains and continue to build bigger and better layouts. To me it’s an art and will always interest people when they see a train running regardless of their background knowledge in the hobby.
I agree completely . I’m 63 and am a modeler now. I was active in the hobby in my pre-teens when things were “so much more affordable…?” My parents laid down $40.00 for a basic, entry-level Tyco set, which is roughly $285.00 today. Compare that to Walthers’ WIFIFlyer that’s cataloged in the 2022 Reference Book for $299.98. That $6.98 AHM 1930 coach is about fifty bucks today…directly comparative to Walthers Mainline models. Granted these are throw ‘em-on-the-rails examples but to backdate your point about kids today, I can say without exaggeration, not I nor any of my eleven year old friends would’ve had any interest in frustratingly laboring over a less expensive box of wood, cardstock, wire and few castings…not one of us. To feed our hobby, we budgeted modest Detroit News route income to pick up an AHM ready to roll car or an Athearn kit as we could afford to…exactly like anyone would budget today. So, in these examples the pricing is correlative but with much more bang for the buck. Sure, there is today as there was then, “high-end,” if you want it. Then it was PFM and the like, Japanese and Korean brass; today it’s limited run DCC with sound, prototype lighting and smoke. But even now, you can buy less. I love today’s models…gorgeous…but I buy DC versions for (typically) $100+ less and am unashamed to say my railroad is still straight DC.
At the end of the day it’s just our nature to want more for less. But this hobby is as strong as it’s ever been and it’s the bells and whistles, obvious pun intended, that’ll keep it moving forward.
Lastly, I must add that I appreciate your video as much for how it was presented as I do for its content: rational, thoughtful and deliberative; thank you.
Thanks for the kind comments. And for the comparative insights.
And for the record there is no shame in a DC layout. I know plenty of people who have them.
Ok, one thing people forget when they start adjusting prices for inflation is that income hasn't scaled along with it. Something that cost $10 in 2000 may cost $17 now, but jobs that pay $20 an hour back then still only pay $20 an hour.
@@VestedUTuber Everything, everywhere, is like that though. It is not a phenomenon unique to the model railroad hobby. There are larger endemic economic issues driving this across the board...
@@jaeger4540
Never said it was unique to the hobby.
@@jaeger4540that's why a lot of hobbies have declined.
This is a well thought out piece - I think in everything in life, there is a spectrum. On one side, you have time, and on the other, money. We trade one for the other in many ways. I trade my time for money through work. In the hobby, I can either buy something on the cheap and spend a lot of time, or buy something more expensive and spend little time getting it ready. It comes down to interests, and personal preferences. Our great hobby has room for those at all points on that spectrum!
This is a topic I thought about touching on in the video and decided no to in the interest of time (no pun intended). We all have limited time just by the nature of our very existence, so money vs. time is a very real balancing act.
I've always observed that what you instance is a fairly iron rule of life. You can have free time or you can have money - you'll seldom, if ever, have both.
I would like to see for example take Walthers Locos compare them side by side There are 3levels from base to highly detailed. Is the basic running gear the same or is it just the details? I started in 1970s but due to space never really got going until after 2000. I have through the years have had ( on my 4th version of my layout) It's a HO 23 in expanded with 4 cab operation. (2 up & over tracks cab 1,2 .only 4 axle locos on them ) Tons of track work but Train Club where we were located got booted It took 3yrs to build but I was running 4 cabs for our last Show/'open house. It's 8 1/2 X 11 1/2. I have a yard for each cab. I can build 1 while the other. I had an Electrical expert did the wiring. I ended cutting it into 4 pieces it's now in my Sunroom, still in 4 pieces( Waiting on a new home).
3D printing has brought together two of my interests that used to compete: 3D modeling and model railroading. It's kept model railroading fun for me, and has gotten me into doing other aspects of the hobby I never did before. I'm 55 and am still enjoying model railroading, which started when I was a kid.
Whatever you have to do to keep it fun!
I fully support my Husbands hobby and he derives great satisfaction building and rebuilding his layouts. He is now 61 years and has been active in the hobby since he was 7 years old . Yet on our retirement income we and I say we find it hard to purchase new locomotives and rolling stock , yes the detail has improved out of sight but it is expensive. He models Conrail and Penn Central we will continue with the hobby . Thank you for the video
Thanks for watching and commenting!
People who say trains are too expensive to entice kids these days need a reality check. Have they bought someone a lego set lately? That’s a lot of money for a plastic brick or wheel. Or go buy some Paw Patrol or other branded dolls. Yes trains can be expensive but compared to other toys or specialty hobbies? It’s all relative. It’s only expensive if you don’t want to spend that much.
As you probably know I love Lego but yes the prices can take my breath away.
Actually, I did get a lego set recently. $20 for 800 pieces. That's cheap! Other hobbies aswell. I got a Volvo excavator for $20, a model of USS Missouri for $30, and a kit (Yamato) for $150. Shoot for making aircraft carrier Shinano (Yamato hull No. 3) that $150 will come in handy. But I digress. I work a standard 8 hour shift & just play my cards right. Trains are a liability to those trying to come in & get established on there own. Mad that kids are going to Philly to see New Jersey & Olympia? Maybe it'd help if the locomotives came in less expensive forms, (kits) so that those kids can practice the skills need to paint, weather, handle, maintain, etc. can actually maintain interest & the dedication to put money into their budgets (if they can afford to). And before I get the generic "used market, kit's ain't popular" please use your search bar to see all the dioramas of trains in larger scales that are not operations based, or of high-quality. Lot's of ww2 era steam engines, but hopefully you can see how popular they are as a whole outside of DCC & road specific details.
@@ThePixelDepotLLCagreed. I like Lego too
Go buy a 800to 1000 dollr traxxas rc just to have I break first run out
Very good rant. Agree with most of it. You also forgot to mention that most model HO and N model train engines have DCC, or are DCC ready. A basic decoder cost $20.00 and a starter DCC system cost about $200.00 Today even N has available sound. The track is nickel silver rather than brass and most come with plastic base track that is easy to assemble and reliable. These were unavailable in the 90s. Of course you can still go back to the future at any train show or even a yard sale and find used trains, track, power supplies, and train sets are almost being given away. Most in perfect or excellent shape. Just don't expect modern electronics. The real threat to MRR is drones, VR, video gaming and computer gaming systems, houses getting smaller, and rents too high for MRR clubs to keep a permanent layout.
You have made a great video. You are correct about the hobby being growing.. look at all the new manufacturers in the last 10 years. If the hobby wasn't growing No one would make the investment in new product. Besides you can go to a train show and still get Athearn blue box engines and cars for a reasonable price. Must have been a grumpy old man who lives in the past. I am 67 so I qualify as old and I don't think the hobby is dying. Keep up the good work
Thanks, Geoff! I agree. There are so many new manufacturers and new products. Too many to count. And in so many areas: locos, rolling stock, detailed structures in many different materials, better and more varied scenery materials than ever, 3D printed items, and more. I didn't want to make any assumptions about the age of the commenter, but I was leaning toward the same thought as you. 😉
I thought that was a great video! And I totally agree that the hobby isn’t on its last leg. There is so much more variety now that there’s something for everyone. And if you’re still into the models from the 70s and 80s wanna to tinker with them to make them run, they are still available! You can’t get them new obviously but a few months ago I walked into a small model train store and with $5. I walked out with a 50 year old athearn gp7 that didn’t run. I just wanted to see If I could make it run. I still prefer the cool new stuff but the old stuff is out there for anyone that wants it. Between ebay and model train stores it’s pretty easy to find. I think it’s pretty silly to say that model railroading is only for people with money and people on a budget are just out of luck.
That’s the beauty. If you like to tinker, you can. If you like to build certain things but not others, you can. And as has become clear from other comments, if you want the shiniest fancy new model, even if you’re on a budget, you’ve got some options (with planning and budgeting).
yes it is more costly now than when I started in the early 50's. But even tho I collect social security only now, I can still have fun in this "WORLD'S GREATEST HOBBY"
Agreed. It's a matter of setting a budget, being selective, and choosing wisely.
Hi Joe, that wasn't a rant, that was a well-thought-out response to one of "the good old days were better" fellows. I would rather pay more upfront for a good complete product than get an engine, then a decoder, then detail parts, etc. I am pretty good at what I do, but I can't do as well as the factory. I often joke that we call it a "layout" because we lay out fifty and a hundred dollars at an alarming rate, but it is a LOT cheaper than collecting classic cars. It may have been Allen McClelland who once said that no one gets into a hobby to save money. I would rather buy my engines and build my own structures, scenery, and signal systems. Which is prototypical since no railroad builds their own equipment anymore. I think we are in a marvelous age of model railroading with DCC and the explosion of inexpensive detail parts from 3-D printers. Oh, and the TH-cam videos are a lot of fun and inspirational as well.
I have bought locos and then added a decoder and speaker afterwards but that was only because I got an amazing deal in the engine (it was actually CR1670 that I did the weathering video on a while back). But yes, I’d rather get it from the factory if possible. You are right about the “layout” part! 🙂
Well said Joe. Sure things cost more but everything costs more, it doesn't matter what it is now. Keep doing what your doing, love the videos.
Thanks, Ace! I appreciate the encouragement!
The hobby has come a long way in the 120 years it's been around. It all comes down to the individual and what they're willing to put into it. Price... I do possess a few "new" engines and rolling stock. I have no problems buying used. If it looks good and runs good, I'm in. Train shows, eBay, and train groups on social media. Just a few of the places I acquire things. There's a multitude of places to get things at a discount price. A big one I check while I'm browsing online stores is the clearance section. It's a hobby, not a job. When it becomes the latter, people get disenfranchised. That sour taste in the mouth kicks in.
Ok, that's enough. This was a great video. And here I thought it was something I said. 🤣
Great call! I’ve gotten some great deals from various “clearance sections” of online sites.
It was nothing you said… this time. You’ll have other opportunities! 🤣
Well said. I am a member of several model RR clubs and now my hobby has become a full time career, time to cut back and restore it as a hobby.
Well said. The health of a hobby can not be based on what seemed to be the norm 50 years ago. If that were true the RC Airplane hobby would be dead because very few flyers are building their planes out of balsa wood. I have returned to the hobby after 30 years and I am having fun scratch building, kit bashing and being cheap.
Glad to hear it!
Good work man! Scratchbuilding is more fun for less bucks! Totally agree!
I think what attracts me to model railroading more than RC airplanes is that model trains seldom crash and revert to being a kit again. Crashing an expensive plane or copter that took many hours and weeks to assemble is so depressing. Model trains biggest problems relate to gaining knowledge and experience. That big question, "Why, oh why won't this thing run ?" But, it sure looks great just sitting there while I work out the kinks !
@@debbiemilka2251 I totally understand. I had no problem flying. I just found that it was more fun building the planes than flying. That is what brought me back to model railroading. The building never ends, no matter the size of the layout.
Great video, Joe! Thanks for sharing this. I've been into seriously modeling trains since the mid 1990s and I had Tyco trains as a kid in the 1970s, and yes prices have increased. But you are right that the quality and prototypical realism of models offered now is almost unbelievable when compared to what was available just 30 years ago. No matter what the manufacturers produce or where their pricing is, you will always have some people who just have to complain about something. Let them feel the way they feel and just enjoy your model layout and your trains the way that you want to. And keep sharing these informative and interesting videos knowing there are thousands of us out there who appreciate and very much enjoy them!
Thanks, Troy. I plan to keep going for a while yet. 🙂
I have always been fascinated by model railroads. The biggest reasons that I never really got into it is a lack of time to devote to it, a lack of space for even a basic size layout, a lack of artistic ability, and a lack of funds. The price of the equipment for this hobby is kind of prohibitive, but the other reasons are the real reasons that I don’t pursue this hobby. Plus there are some nice inexpensive railroad simulations for PC available now that are reasonably priced, don’t take up any room, and don’t require artistic ability and a lot of time.
I'm in two model railroad clubs. In one, we've recently acquired two new members, nine and ten y.o. Their parents are happy to see them enthusiastic about something other than video games. The other, we set up our modules at train shows for running, as that seems to be what the younger crowd wants to see. Operations are mainly done on a home layout. Depending on what your tastes/preferences/goals are, model rr'g does not have to break the bank. With lots of used equipment available at shows and hobby shops, a roster can be had for pretty reasonable prices. Locos under $100 (LOTS in the $50-$80 range), rolling stock starting under $10. Again, depending on what you're after, prices can vary greatly. Want DCC & sound? Expect double+ the loco prices above. If you are fortunate enough to have deep pockets, new DCC & sound locos are as much as $300 +/-. With such a wide range of options, eras, equipment available, still a great hobby to enjoy!
Bravo! Glad to see your clubs have recognized what draws the younger crowd and is catering to it. Deals are out there to be had. Especially at smaller shows and white elephant tables.
Preordered my first n scale locomotive from kato, i plan on installing the sound myself in ordered to hopefully reduce cost instead of buying the trains with sound.
@@Aetherbound You're braver than me! I'm not sure I have the steadiness (or patience) to install sound in an N Scale loco!
@@Aetherbound Yeah, kind of six of one, half dozen of another. Cost of preinstalled DCC & sound vs cost of loco, board, speaker, and installation (unless you diy).
I got lucky got an in the box. red box DCC with sound for $50 on eBay . Worked great with my digitrax controller I picked up for $80. Got 2 old-school DCC athearns a DT&I and N&W. Haven't tried to put on program track. Didn't have DCC at time I got them in the lot. But bypassed the DCC and was dirty but worked great. Need to reinstall 1 it wasn't all wired in someone took it apart and I assume broke cpl connections. And if someone feels venturous you can find DCC setups on eBay to I bought 1 for $10. Shipping free.
Most people who think the hobby is dying or think it’s too expensive are simply ignorant or just think the way they enjoy the hobby is dying. Period.
Everything is more expensive, but the details on newer stuff is incredible, being on fixed income has curtailed my ability ti acquire many items.I just buy the stuff I really want and can afford.I would like to buy more but I can't so I pass on a lot of items. I have chosen to improve the models I have to bring them up to an acceptable level for my needs.
I think you have to buy wisely no matter what your budget.
Hey Joe. Great video. I would like to add, the cost of EVERYTHING has gone up. I'm retired and on a fixed income but I can still get an older Athearn, Atlas or Kato (the list goes on) in good condition and add detail parts, tune it up and a DCC decoder for 1/2 to 3/4 of the cost of these higher end locos. Am I disappointed. Hell no. I'm having fun and teaching my grandson how it's done. There are just some people that always need to look on the down side. Your doing a great job. Keep it up.
Thanks! As long as you're having fun, that's all that matters!
I have tried several times over the years to build a layout but cost has always been an issue. Nearly all of my trains were purchased at flea markets and yard sales in the 80s, so the train costs (which is arguably worse) did not affect me.
I think that the thing that hurts train modeling is the initial buy in. A starter set runs $150-$500 (depending on scale) and gives a basic loop with little (or no) accessories, which is not exactly inspiring to someone that is new to the hobby. Then, if they want even basic scenery, they are in for another $100-$1000 plus the cost of a table to put it on. And then if you want some basic functionality, like switching tracks, you discover the cost of turnouts, which are surprisingly expensive for how old the technology is that operates them.
All that amounts to a ton of time and cost, just to see if you are really interested in the hobby. I think it is too discouraging in the modern world.
I inherited a bunch of trains recently, and this time I have decided to fully commit to building the layout that I have attempted several times (although it will be in a different scale). It is still stupidly expensive, but I am old now, so I can finally afford a bit more.
Great video, Joe. Yes, a lot in this hobby is expensive, but there are almost less expensive alternatives for everything. Like some have said, you can still find older equipment at shows, hobby shops or online for cheap. Or looking at it a different way, you can buy a nice loco like your GP38-2, buy 10-15 nice pieces of rolling stock, a starter DCC set and build a excellent small switching layout that will give you years of enjoyment. See Lance Mindheim;s East Rail for an example of that (not to mention many others).
I do think a fault of the hobby press is the focus on large basement-sized layouts. It gives the impression that you have to think along those lines, when very often something smaller will scratch the itch. I'm lucky enough to have space for a larger layout, but if I was in an apartment, something the size of The Grunge would keep me pretty happy.
@@ThePixelDepotLLC Maybe we need to make a new publication, Shelf Switching Layouts. White River Productions, are you out there?
A few years ago when I was going through trade school I was very very fortunate and was able to work part time at a local model train store, a rarity in these days. Of course most of our customers were older but we did have a pretty healthy number of younger customers split between highschool and college age. What I noticed from their spending habits was that they would save up for one really nice high end locomotive if they could and then fill out the rest of their modest fleets with more affordable offerings. One item that sold very well to that age group were the Walthers mainline series locomotive with DCC and sound. The one worrying trend that I noticed even before the pandemic hit was the somewhat sudden but alarmingly rapid rate at which some manufacturers were raising their prices. Bachmann was the worst for this since they took their N scale freight equipment which was nowhere near as good as what Micro Trains offers for about $25-30 and started to sell if for up to $45 per car. It used to be that bachmann could be counted on for decent but affordable N scale steam but their most recent offering of the 2-8-0 retailed is listed for an eye watering $430. That's only a few dollars off from Athearn's Big Boys and Challengers. Offering high end products is one thing but I'm worried that it will also go along with a disappearance of affordable entry level offerings.
Now what I think will change and greatly help out the hobby in the future is the growing rise of 3D printing and the growing popularity of Free-Mo clubs. 3D printing is making it possible for people to make models that look just as good as something from a big manufacturer in their own garage and as the equipment gets more affordable and more capable I think that it will make for a resurgence in the kitbashing and scratchbuilding communities. Free-Mo is where I think the big hook for the younger generation is going to be. While video games and the digital world as a whole are a significant competitor what I have noticed is that there are people who want more of a human connection in their hobbies and model train clubs are great at that. Before the pandemic hit I was fortunate enough to attend a train show with the local Free-Mo N chapter. I didn't bring any modules of my own but I did help set up and I was able to run my own steam freight consist with some cars that I had weathered myself. It was genuinely some of the most fun that I've ever had in the hobby and now that I've moved into my own place I'm working hard on getting my own modules built. And part of the beauty of Free-Mo is that you can build sections if not all of your at home layout to be Free-Mo compliant so that when a show does roll around you can take your at home layout and display it at show along with what everyone else in the group has built. That is something that I think could really help bring in more younger people into the crowd since it would give them the ability to make a budget friendly switching layout for use at home that can be taken on the road and then used as part of a large display layout at a show.
So while the hobby of course has it's own problems I'm still hopeful that it will be able to attract new members and keep on going along.
I'd love to run a hobby shop, but I'm not sure the economics are there in this day and age.
@@ThePixelDepotLLCagreed Fremo is a great idea
Great show. I started model railroading at 68 with 3 or 4 pieces and 2 years later I have 150 pieces of rolling stock, a handsome layout, and put it on public display in the town of Nicholson, PA. The exhibit has a full unique view of the Tunkhannock Viaduct, the world's largest concrete and steel reinforced railroad trestle in the world, built in 1912-1915. It turned an aging, neglected Main Street into a new and unique source of pride in the town, and has become the new focal point of our annual Bridge Day celebration every September. The outpouring of interest and the attention it has brought to the community simply can't be measured. It is located at the corner of State Street an Main Street and is available for viewing 365 days a year. Thanks and enjoy the hobby.
You can still have a ton of fun on a shoestring budget. You just can't get the newest and the shiniest
Exactly. I had a friend tell me long ago "When you're on a budget you can have anything you want. But you can't have everything you want."
Great video. The Hobby is only dying in the minds of the negative people trying to make it go away. Are they jealous of not being able to buy what they want because they do not want to pay what it is worth?
Perhaps….
We all enjoy the hobby differently. My collection is an accumulation of the past 45 years. I have Tyco, Athearn, AHM, Lifelike and other low end trains that I enjoy every day. And I’m still DC because it would cost a fortune to change everything to DCC. I did upgrade to Kadee Couplers though. I love the old school trains, without sound. The growl of the Athearn motor or the frequent squeal of the Tyco engine gears is part of my childhood and I won’t trade those memories for anything. Keep up the great videos and RANT ALL YOU WANT. It’s your channel.
Thank you. But I don’t want it to be just my channel. It’s nothing without all of you who invest your time (and in your case, money) to watch what I put out. I never take that for granted. So I really do want to make sure what I create is worthwhile and not just me spouting off about whatever. 🙂
@@ThePixelDepotLLC it needed to be said. And I’m glad you addressed it. Now you can get back to your regularly scheduled entertaining videos. Lol
Basic DC locomotives are going to be cheap, even new (if you can find them) they are 50-70 bucks, but usually are cheaper. For HO its easy to convert even old blue box Atherns to DCC, N scale though its going to be hit or miss depending on the age.
Basic DCC are pretty cheap as well, ranging from about 100-150 new or about 40-70 used (or even better if at a swap meet). HO and N prices even out here with both ranging in the same ballpark, price wise.
DCC with Sound is where the big money starts rolling in with new units starting at about 175 (Bachman with Economi sound), regardless of scale, and going up for new locomotives. Used can vary greatly on price but normally don't drop below 100 bucks for a DCC/Sound unit.
Shell details and quality also come into play but anything new these days will have good details to begin with and will go up from there. Manufacturers like ScaleTains and Broadway Limited are on the high end of the spectrum when it comes to high detail locomotives. As such those locomotives are quite expensive to begin with, as with BLI, they ALL are DCC/Sound they do not offer anything else. Scaletrains does have options for either DCC ready (aka DC locomotive), DCC or DCC/Sound in both their Operator level (normal shell detail) and Rivet Counter (high detail) Locomotive Lines.
For HO there are high detail offerings from Athern, Bowser and Atlas as well.
Scale plays a lot into pricing but so does the space you have to build such a layout. N scale will give you more "bang for your buck" in terms of space, giving you more trains in the space you have. N does scale (lol) quite well with space, allowing for an interesting layout in a small 2x4 layout, but also giving a grand sense of scale on a massive 40x20 layout. However N scale isn't the greatest with small hands around, they are a little more delicate (recommend kids around 10 or 12 at least to understand how to handle them). HO scale will give you a lot more options in terms of price at the cost of not having nearly as large of a layout. The bear minimum with HO is about a 4x8, with absolute minimum being at least 3ft needed to turn a train around (in comparison N can turn around twice at 2ft). However HO has been around a lot longer as a scale, as such there is a lot more out there for trains, meaning its a very saturated market making prices cheap. A blue box Athern can be as cheap as 20 bucks, that runs.
In the end the best place to find stuff is at your local Train Show/Swap Meet, you will usually find one or two people there that are getting out of the hobby and have a table to two to get rid of stuff (aka they don't want to go home with it). At the last show I was at I got an old Bowser 2-10-2 with smoke for 40 bucks. Also picked up a Mantua 2-8-2 Camelback for 35 as well (found out later while putting in DCC that it has been re-motored with a Sagami motor). Both run great on DCC and I will be putting in sound later in both. You never know what you will find at a Train Show.
If you don't feel the need to turn a loco, you can get away with much less than 4x8, even in HO. My 15" x 90" Grunge layout is a testament.
Hey Joe, no problem with your ideas. But I’ve been in the hobby since I was 10 years old, and I for one, was so happy when I discovered Athearn. Finally a products that were not only affordable, but ran really well. And for me, realistic operations eg. Engines that will crawl and not jump-start like my old Tyco engines used to do, is worth gold. Also, in my modest opinion, you can get a super-detailed product but that you can’t even pick up for fear something will fall off, is taking it too far. Also, DCC is great for a vast majority of reasons, but for me, is just an added “feature” that brings another level of maintenance to the trains, on top of having to clean track and wheels, so…again, my modest opinion. I like the KISS system eg keep it simple stupid. Is the hobby dying?…no, I don’t think so. But it is getting harder and harder for a young family with two or three kids to educate them, feed them, and clothe them. Can you really tell me that these families are going to shell out any of the kind of money needed to get a starter set, like my folks did back in 1970? I don’t see that happening. Anyway, thanks for sharing your views w everyone. Take care!
A warm Hello! from Central Europe. I was watching a few of your videos and this one just popped into my feed. I am a model railroader too and recently begun with this hobby so after seeing your video I feel the need to put my two cents here. Now, please take into account that what I'm about to say is first and foremost from the perspective of model railroaders here in Europe and many share my opinion on this matter. The situation over in the US might be different.
To start, in Europe (excluding the UK) we have just 2 or 3 manufacturers who kind of have a monopoly on everything, these would be Maerklin (Germany) and another would be Roco (Austria). The 3rd would be Fleischmann who I think was bought up by Roco. There are a few other smaller companies but these three hold the most market share. Nowadays most of their lineup in terms of locomotives is digital and the prices are sky high, easily going 500 EUR or higher, when the average monthly income over here is around 1500 EUR before taxes. They do not seem to offer cheaper analog versions at all anymore so there is no choice. Yes, their starter packs are somewhat affordable but that is also something parents would buy only once, a 12-14 year old will most likely not have that money. Many of the older model railroaders I spoke to said that they were able to buy rolling stock when they were kids, just from their pocket money plus a small extra here ant there so even if you adjust for inflation the conclusion remains that it is to expensive for any young people and so they will not be attracted to this hobby. So at least over here in Europe the prices are killing it. I only started recently because I changed jobs and my current one brings me an income way above average. Even so, everything I managed to buy is second hand, from ebay, which brings me to the next topic, that of quality. Most rolling stock I have is old, some of it even saw the fall of the iron curtain ===))), but despite its age runs pretty well and all of it is analog. Many are complaining of the new products from either Maerklin or Roco stating they have issues with everything on them, starting with motors and ending with bad build quality overall, and German consumers are especially angry at this. I've even witnessed several times, people bringing in their new engines to the railroad model shop in my neighbourhood, returning their stuff they bought just a couple of months ago. Even the salesman there confirmed there are quality issues which weren't there in the past. So all in all it looks pretty dire I'm afraid.
Thank you for that detailed insight. It does sound like things in Europe are less flexible than here in the US.
Is the hobby different? Sure. Is it better? Probably, thanks to the internet and the massive amount of information we now have access to. So if you think the Athearn was such a good deal in 1985 (I don't think so) you get it home and put it on the rails. To make it look like anything, you need to put those metal handrails (often rusted) on and paint them. Hmm, so now you need to go buy glue and paint. If you get that done, you run your loco and wow, it doesn't run that great, and it's loud. So to fix that you need to replace that metal strip with wire. Now you need a soldering iron and the skill to use it without ruining something. So now you have a loco that looks... meh OK I guess and it at least runs reliably.
Now today $100 is nothing, event to a kid. Look at the price of these games they buy and play. At a train show an RTR Kato loco is easy to pick up for $100. Lots of rolling stock that's available, lots of times with metal wheels and kadees installed. You need not learn to paint, glue, or solder to get something that runs well.
So, although things are more expensive, the odds of someone staying in the hobby are much higher, because the initial satisfaction is there. Once they have their interest piqued, THEN they discover the things that can be done and they have motivation to learn the skills needed, rather than needing them jus to get that loco to run reliably.
No, not a rich man's hobby. My dad was in it, no, not a rich man, I'm in it, no not a rich man. I make well below what is considered "middle class" but with a high level of job satisfaction. I enjoy my hobby immensely and don't spend a ton of money.
$100 isn’t “nothing” but it is not the high barrier it once was. At least for many. There are still some where it is a very high number when it comes to discretionary spending.
Years ago I bought a house and was planning to build a HO layout in my basement. Moved into the house and then life happened. I no longer have the available room, money, nor eyesight to participate in the hobby. Cost is relative, as I found out. Instead of a model railroad in my basement, I have a model railroad on my computer. I make "layouts" in the game "Transport Fever 2." When I get tired of a layout I can change it without all the hard work and money needed. The hobby isn't dead nor is it dying. It is just taking different forms and levels that expand the choices available to everyone interested. After all, it is the love of railroading that drives all in this hobby!
What you’re doing is just as valid as those that are physically building something. And like you said, much easier to make changes!
I have been a model railroader since the 1960's, at least.
Yes, locomotives and the quality ready made rolling stock is pricey. But, how many locos do you need?
On a small layout, which is what most of us can afford, how many locomotives can you run at a time?
All the rest, sit on a shelf or in the box, NOT NEEDED!
MORE IS NOT NECESSARY!
Save your money, buy a good locomotive, and run it.
Nuff, said.
I have 100 locos. 1 of them is brass.
I have a 15x20 foot double deck layout. Here on TH-cam. This is my 12th layout I have built. I am 37.
80% of rolling stock and locos were purchased preowned
Kato, atlas, concor, BLI, Scaletrains, athearn and micro trains. I pre order new when I can’t find it used or the price is the same. I use dollar store for scenery paint / supplies. I enjoy adding scenery elements you can’t just buy and get from walthers or hobby shop. If you go to a show and everyone has the same railroad BNSF etc locos with the same walthers buildings. Ah can’t stand that. Doing some Scratch building, kit bashing, repurposing dollar store stuff, I enjoy it all. Use your imagination. I have 4 children. As far as the kids go there is no comparison to running action for them. Same as big kids. A model railroad is a (operating) (diorama) that you build or buy how much of which how detailed and how it runs is up to you. It’s your railroad. In all scales they need a lower starting price for the beginner I don’t care what anyone says, and if the market doesn’t support it for the manufacturer then donate a loop power pack loco and cars to a neighborhood kid that will benefit. Something we big wigs have in excess We can double this hobby overnight. If the manufacturers don’t see this based on the fact that dc (dcc ready locos) in more basic price range keep selling out, eventually they will realize that you also Need to acquire new entry level customers to maintain. Especially in the times we are in with inflation. The majority of my n scale friends online and in real life do not have the space and budget for what I even have. The big rich guy layouts are not the majority sorry.
as i’m looking at a shelf with 38 locomotives all dcc some sound some not 😁 but over 20 years tho, plus i “kit bashed” a lot of my stuff cause some they didn’t at the time but was a blast and to see the finished product made it worth the time! now you can buy anything! i was making GEVOS way before they came out and the flared radiator SD70’s … my friend have probly over 400 rail cars by now 😁 just have to budget
My love for the hobby is still there. I prefer DC models, as that's what my over 150 locomotives are. I can get by without sounds.
I just spent a bunch of money getting my train shed ready to withstand Utah weather... Mini splits ain't cheap.
But I will have a running railroad in my 12 X 16 foot shed.
Yeah, it's disheartening that new release tank cars are 45 - 60 bucks, but I can buy a few, and mix with the oldies.
A friend of mine once said, "If the headend looks detailed, and the rear end looks detailed, no one really looks at the middle bits."
You've made the smart move. You know what you like, what you can live without (and with!). And you're right, everyone complains about the cost of the models, but lumber, wire, and all the other materials for layout building certainly haven't gone down in price, either!
@@ThePixelDepotLLC Exactly! Track, lumber, foam.... It all has a price, and it's not going down.
Let's get real! By the fact that "MODEL" Railroading exist at all is a fantasy for "FUN". My entire layout and I'm sure most others are based on a mythical city, that doesn't exist. Who has a house large enough to have a full size RR in their basement? That just is not possible, unless you are Elon Musk, Then just maybe.............?
I'm the rare American who runs European trains because I find them more interesting than recolored EMD SD---s and F-units, and I don't care about things being prototypical. I'll have a double-header InterCity 125/Lord of the Isles pulling 1970s Amtrak coaches. If you know where to look and if you don't mind fixing things, you can get a running good quality engine and 15-20 train cars for $100.
I buy track (Atlas Code 100 Nickel Silver) new and locos and train cars used. The only standards I have for my rolling stock is tension-lock couplers and metal wheels. Controller is an MRC RailPower 1370.
You're spot on. I've heard the death of the hobby being exaggerated since around 1980. That it's a rich persons' hobby for just as long. Who could afford brass back in the 1960's ? Unless you write prose,(The least costly hobby I can think of at this moment), all hobbies have costs.
Bang for buck, I think MRRing has favourable comparisons.
R/C planes. It doesn't matter what level you're at, they will at some point, land early and land abruptly. Batteries, servos, tx... In fact, lump at all RC into that group.
Philately. Have you seen how much a stamp is these days??? (sounds vaguely familiar...)
Slot cars.
Astronomy.
Scrap booking...omg..
Sewing.
Surfing.
Kit building.
Any sort of automotive pursuit.
Even watching t.v.... how much are all those subs a month?
Anything to do with computers.
Painting...of any kind.
Metal detecting.
Gardening.
They all have their costs. Some facets are going to be higher than others.
I imported my MRC Prodigy Advance2 around ten years ago. I have two N scale DCC locomotives from my old N scale layout, and two HO for my current layout. My code 70 Shinohara turnouts are older, some 5 layouts old. Going DCC was investigated and budgeted for and paid for only once.
A lot of my old flex, when the ties couldn't hang on any more, I've recycled the rail for handlaid turnouts.
The argument does not stand up.
I simply avoid talking to anyone that keeps up with these echo chamber opinions and encourage others to do the same.
Well said and I like you bringing up the fact that every hobby one could do has a cost. I like to do woodworking also and now am getting into smoking and bbq and my goodness, the amount one could spend in those two hobbies dwarfs model railroading (unless you want all brass stuff). The hobby, and society in general, has moved past the lets construct this from scrap parts I got from a bin.
Most people are looking for something with a hobby that is unique to them. I used to like visiting layouts and watching the trains run through well done scenery, not really paying attention to what/where they were going. Then I operated on a layout at an NMRA regional meet and it completely opened my eyes to that side of the hobby to the point I was having as much fun operating on plywood Pacifics as I was on fully scenic layouts.
Every now and then you get this type of comment from someone, usually a "club member" who doesn't understand why their membership keeps diminishing. I inquired at our local club about joining, willing to learn the aspects of the hobby when I could based on family commitments. I was given a checklist of what I needed to build and present to the club's board before I could become a member. Same with a local NTRAK group. I decided to start, slowly, a HCD layout instead and am working through the intricacies (complexity I probably shouldn't have added) of that as I learn about trackwork, scenery, wiring, etc. As soon as I can, I will operate it because that's what I find I get the most enjoyment out of but I want the "stage" to be believable so scenery will come, albeit, more slowly than it otherwise might if that was what I liked most.
That’s no club I’d want to be part of. When I was in a club we welcomed anyone who was interested, no experience necessary. Of course that was after we ousted a bunch of elitists who thought they were MR gods.
Glad you discovered operations. It’s my favorite part of the hobby!
I attended York pa. in Spring. Wanted to start back up, ironically from the 90's. Thought I took enough money to get some more track, a better transformer, maybe an engine with sound etc..... wow was I wrong. Too expensive. Maybe it was always for rich people, but with he economy not doing well I doubt you will get many into the hobby with $1700 lionel engines.
Or $350 for an atlas or broadway. If you are rich though...you probably don't care what the little guy thinks
I agree with your sentiments completely. I started modelling as a teenager in the 1980s. Models back then were more basic and to get an accurate model, you needed to detail. As time went on the basic standard improved but as you would expect, the price went up. Yes it's true that top end models are pricey these days but instead of buying a dozen cheap models in a year, buy two or three top link models instead. Railway modelling is a broad church and there is a place for everyone no matter your skill level or budget
Things being expensive are a sign of the times. I was just a little league tournament where they were charging admission to the same parents that already pay a boatload of money so their children can play on the first place.
That being said, what makes a hobby thrive is an active community. People upgrading to the latest models often create a secondary market as they unload older gear to make room for the newest acquisitions. The train hobby is no different. I have found deals on both used and new old stock items that help keep the cost of this hobby down. Again, it’s the interactions of the train hobby community that keep it going even if it is constantly evolving.
I grew up with model railroading in the 70's and 80's, introduced model railroading to my kids in the 90's and went from N scale to 7-1/4" gauge.
I might add to what you said by stating what I think you were implying. A hobby is as expensive as you make it. Someone gave me a bundle of broken flex track once, so I learned to hand lay N scale track and switches. I had a blast doing it and it cost me less than new track cost at the time.
I also had a short time when I did G gauge but the reason I got rid of it is because I figured out that the cost per foot of track was about the same as 7-1/4" gauge track, which is what I really wanted in the first place. All of a sudden, I realized that a hurdle I thought was there was just an assumption. Over a decade, I built 1024 feet of track and spent about $7 per foot. I built my own cars from scratch, bought a locomotive chassis, built a body on top of it and I've since built two more locomotives and several cars. I didn't have the money to do it the easy way and spend tens to hundreds of thousands on a high end locomotive and in a way, I'm glad I didn't. Scratch building was within my budget and I got a lot more enjoyment out of it.
Back on the indoor models: 3d printers have made scratchbuilding way easier to get a high quality model and made the process more enjoyable.
Model railroading isn't dead or dying. It's alive and growing.
In short: you're absolutely right.
That’s an interesting road you followed. 🙂
I had my share of H0 railroad stuff as a kid which I mostly later sold. Recently, during the pandemic, I got into brick-built model railroading ("Lego" bricks for laymen, but there are several more new companies emerging offering specific brick railroad products just in the last couple of years) although I never was into Lego that much as a kid and did not even give a thought to it during the past 25 years. But once I saw one of the new train sets coming out in 2020, I tried it out - and it got me hooked.
Several differences to regular model railroading:
- You can build anything - yes, anything - you imagine like that, without having to be a master craftsman/woman. Of course this is also important for children.
- You can tackle themes no commercial model railroad producer offers, for example I am currently building Indian Railways.
- Even if you get a commercial set, you have to build it yourself, you don't just unpack it and run it.
- It is much cheaper overall, and durable - if you break one piece (which is very difficult to achieve), it can be replaced for a few cents, a few dollars at most if it is a motor or something.
- It is a challenge to achieve the shape you want with pre-determined pieces, you can play around for weeks to build only a single model. Of course, the downside, some shapes may never be achieved or some of it might not look that realistic.
- Trains are huuuuge (which is an upside and downside at the same time, depends on how you look at it).
Oh, trust me, I am a big fan of Lego, going way back! I even use it in my modeling: th-cam.com/video/PDHj2PUD4cU/w-d-xo.html
@@ThePixelDepotLLC Great! 🙂
Truth on both sides if you can not see that then enjoy your hobby. I had neighbors that used the H O hobby to give the 3 children a fun Dad sons project. I had a fun H O Son only project hobby after seeing their project and fun. I started spending my money made from yard work and odd jobs to get what I needed on my own. I understand what the point of the 90's gentleman said. This is a hobby that was only affordable to the rich when it first came out. Then in the hay days everyone, Even a kid like me could mow yards and do odd jobs to build a 6x6 layout in the corner of the basement on top of a old kitchen table all by himself and be proud of his work. My parents house sold to them for 2,400 dollars it is 160,000 today. Price will effect how many and who can play the Hobby game. What is the Value of it to you is the only question to be answered. The Hobby builds more then a toy in the corner of the basement on a old kitchen table even if you do it alone. We all pay a price for things in our life. Enjoy what you can and what you have. Model RR is cool and Fun and it builds you as much as you build it.
The breadth of the hobby has never been wider and that serves all budgets. You can start with a ready to roll Bachmann kit for around $100. There's gazillions of used items on Ebay for a pittance or you can go all out with DCC, sound, etc. The layouts can start out very basic but the sky's the limit on how far you take them. Model railroading has never had a brighter future IMHO because of the breadth.
I think the problem of always wanting "more and more" especially in things that should be done by the modeller (eg scenic detailing, buildings, loc & rolling stock detailing, ...) prices got so high that finally they converted the hobby into a rich man "buy and play" business.
We have this in France, long ago we had a national builder that produced french rolling stock and locs, that were not so detailled but at exact scale. With some modeller's skill these could become nice models and their motor and drive could be easily upgraded. This was the JoueF brand. It was affordable so tennagers could buy with their pocket money, and adults could improve the models.
But the ugly "german old man" hobby virus came and then french adults started complaining about the quality of the products, then they finally induced a price increase, and a contraction of the sales, leading the company to bankrupcy.
Fortunately it was saved by the hornby group.
Nowadays, nostalgic are seeking for these early JoueF models on ebay and try to upgrade them to today's standard. Even small companies now propose modern motor kits and digitalization kits...
But the evil is done... the brand is dead.
The Germans invented model trains long before Lionel was born. Model railroad did not start with Lionel and did not end with Lionel. Just like in the motorcycle she not everything begins and ends with Harley-Davidson. Lionel in the pre-war days was toy trains not scale models though they did make a few nice scale pieces like the Hudson before World War II. In the old model railroad engage there was very little equipment that was available ready to run you had to put things together. You had locomotive kits Rolling Stock passenger cars and buildings that you all had to put together or you scratch built out of stuff to save money. All of the good train magazines in the old days and they were good train magazines in the old days because the were started by model railroaders who started in the Bronze Age of our Hobby. Al kalmbach, Lynn Westcott, David P Morgan we're all legends of model railroading and real railroading aficionados. They were the Living Legends of model railroading. They showed you how to build and improve your model railroad and you waited every month for the next issue to come out. Now the few magazines that are left are more like coffee table magazines pretty pictures but not much real content. Just because the rich people entered our Hobby and jacked up the price of everything sky-high does not mean you have to abandon the hobby. Everyone thought model railroading would die with the end of the steam locomotive but it did not. Like motorcycling model railroading is in your blood. Once you get bitten by the bug you never regret it. So just go out and have fun. To hell with the naysayers and the Doom and Gloom crowd.
You guys want to know what 'expensive' means, look into the live steam model railroading. Add 2-3 zeros to your pricier locomotives and rolling stock and you will understand how expensive this is. Often I shake my head, wondering why I left HO scale for G scale live steam.
No rant... People referring to the "good old days", are just "nostalgic", heck I miss the old computer games from the early 90'. Model Railroading isn't dying, it's volving. It has moved from wooden tracks and rolling stock on the floor, to highly detailed, computer assisted models with light, smoke, sound and some even have additional moving parts, running on shelfs, in dinning tables. I love the rolling part of it, but it doesn't keep me from adding some scenery.
I build all the rolling stock, Siganally system, lighting etc. myself from very cheap items I look around for at hardware, wood/furniture, electric goods shops. I special in HO gauge. I am 66 years old from India.
Great insight! I've been hearing my entire life from some people that the hobby is dying and it won't be around by the time I'm an "old folk." I'm still a youngster of 43 years. But, the hobby has never seemed better and brighter than it is now! Sure, it has changed a lot- in more ways that we could have imagined. But, I think mostly for the better.
I agree. I was at a train show today and business was brisk. Lots of people carrying things around. In HO it ranged from Blue Boxes to the latest and greatest.
When I was a kid in the 60s, I wanted a train set in the worst way. But it was too expensive for my parent's budget, so I didn't get one. I know what some might say, but I finally got my trainset about ten years ago. Lately, I have been adding to it. It is expensive, but I think it's probably relative. Anyway, there is plenty of cheap stuff out there on eBay and train shows. Dumb engines are dirt cheap. I got a working dumb engine for thirty bucks. I also bought a TMM engine that needs the $300 controller box. But I could stick with my three dumb engines and still have fun. I wanted the literal bells, whistles, and chuffs, so I paid for it. And your statement about quality is so true. My cyber engine is like a piece of fine jewelry in its detail. The old dumb engine is very indistinct in its detail, but it moves. If something that looks like a train engine and can drag some cars, you're in.
How many sports have started as a poor mans sport/hobby just to have the rich guys ruin it? Yes, it is in some ways it has in the train hobby. Prices have gone from high to rediculous. Drag racing as an example, a sport over the years has climbed right out of range from the guys that first started it many years ago. Yes, the hobby of trains only peddles to what manufacturers can get away with! I've been in the hobby for decades and watch the dollar bill buy less and less! Technology will always improve one way or another along with quality as thats with most everything. You can compare shop and look for the best deals around but they get harder to find. Cost of living raises rarely exist anymore. Capitolism without parameters creates separation in our country. It hasn't been that many years since a piece of flex track cost $0.97 cents and is now over $5.00 a piece!
Well, good video. I have just moved from that "working" life to the "retired" life. Since money is not there like it used to be, but I've always been the type that looks for low-cost options. Keep up the good work and really enjoy your videos.
Thanks for the compliment on the videos! We all have a budget to stay within, so smart choices will win the day.
There is going to be a whole lot of decent second hand stuff around from now as boomers and older kick the bucket. I started off with second hand stuff in the seventies and bought better as and when I could afford it. Spending the equivalent of a few packets of smokes or a dozen beers per week will get you going. Yes its not cheap but neither is any hobby now. A bigger problem is that wages have not kept up with inflation in the US since the 1980's. That's making many people poorer than their parents. Not making a political point, its just a fact.
Wow! I just turned 70 in September. That poor guy who complained about the “promo” is so out of touch with “today”. Absolutely everything you said on the video I agree with.
I would rather scratch a building, weather a piece of rolling stock or operate the layout then scratch build a locomotive. I got my 1st trains at 7, started modeling in high school and started painting brass after college in 1974. I have heard the hobby is dying, the members are too old and the young people are getting priced out. Obviously not true.
I have 800+ Facebook friends that are supposed to be Model Railroaders. Everyday I get a birthday announce. I’m not counting but I have very few FB modeling railroading friends that are over 55. This hobby isn’t dying, it’s in its golden age.
Great video Joe
I did feel that the commenter was out of touch, and that was my primary point. Anyone that thinks that today’s kids are looking at things the same way we did decades ago is deluded.
Everything that was, still is thanks to train shows, everything you want is available with a click of a mouse, pick your price point, and detail level, and dive in. My first Tyco set in 74 or 75 is at the same price point today (adjusted dollars) as similar current sets, the new sets run much better. When it comes to train shows, I use the term, you can buy a Corvette at Chevette prices. look around there are deals to be found. The Atlas yellow box with Kato drive is as good a drive made. and can be found cheap.
I agree with you. Model railroading is not on its last leg. It is far better then it ever was, and can only get better.😂❤😂
Well, it *could* get worse. There’s always that possibility. But for right now, things seem healthy.
I'll always love the hobby just like my trains that are made in america! Old school 70 and back vintage trains! Thank You
A hobby is what you make of it and if you are really interested, you will find a way to stay in it. You don't have to buy the brand new DCC, DIgitrax tsunami sound straight out of the box, brand spank'n new, top of the line road power to start out. Buy used, equipment to start and work yourself upwards. There are no hard & fast rules you have to observe. As your talent level increases with experience in the hobby, you may find that you want to scratch build something or explore different means & methods to create. You cannot look at the past and live there. There are inherent flaws no matter what time period. One has to evolve and grow personally whether in a hobby or just life in general.
You made very good and valid points. Some people forget about inflation price differences from 1970, 1980, 1990, 2007 & 2022. Technology on the Model Trains has IMPROVED when it comes to realistic features and quality.
To play devil's advocate, this comment may have been borne from the frustration that if one cannot have the best models available due to cost, and he will not be satisfied with the less expensive versions, why bother getting into the hobby? The statement that the hobby is dying may have been his own outlook, not based on everyone else, maybe? Myself, I still like the hobby even though I have a limited budget bc I like to get less expensive models and mod/add details. I get enjoyment from my ability to upgrade things without spending ridiculous money for something that is perfect out of the box. I wish there were still kits for loco's and rolling stock available like there used to be, though. I wonder if that could be an untapped market today?
A person can enjoy the hobby without spending a fortune. Just don’t buy everything you see. Scratch building is still possible. All because someone offers a car or structure doesn’t mean that you must buy it. Yes cars and locos are expensive, but I have seen layouts with only a couple of engines.
I couldn’t agree more. Most manufacturers of locomotives and rolling stock have different levels of detail and price. Great video as always. Thanks 😊
I don’t have a problem with the price of the models. I don’t have the time nor the desire to build and super detail every piece of rolling stock and locomotive I own. Give it to me out of the box rail-ready. I can’t build a 60 car unit train. But I can run one.
I think its a case of 'horses for courses'. The hobby is a wide, varied one which is one of its strengths - different people with widely differing interests can find a niche. OK, modern prices appall me, but I'm still thinking in 1960's terms and methods, never mind 1990's! I enjoy making as much as I can myself, and tinkering in my workshop - that's fine FOR ME; not everyone likes or wants that, and that's equally fine FOR THEM. Children love watching the trains run - they love humour, or hidden things to look for on a layout, and actually, so do their parents. And I love building such things into a layout as well.
The growing sophistication, sound, DCC, lighting etc don't interest me, but they do other people. Likewise the delicacy of fine detail for me is secondary to robustness in use; I build my engines tough, to work for a living, rather like the real ones were. This is the great point - it is a very individual hobby, with room for everyone. That's why it is still running over 130 years after the first clockwork trains left the factories in Germany.
That is the drawback to some of the highly detailed models, as I've mentioned in some of my Tangent review videos. They look AMAZING, but the detail is prone to breakage with repeated handling.
As a cost MRR is far cheaper than many other hobbies. I know fools who drink away far more than my MRR budget. Ask a guy w classic cars or a boat what he spends???
when to train show with so much cool stuff for model railroading wish I had the money to buy some of the stuff but did get cool looking box
I've been doing this since 1974' and was a big time kit-basher then in the 70s-80s because you had to be to be accurate !! But the hobbie is so much more accurate now but has gotten VERY expensive $$$$$$$ , and you must understand computers which could be a problem for us old Baaastards now !! 😆 Still Love the 1st and 2nd Gen diesels and Fallen Flag railroads best with the many builders and great RR Liveries !! 👍
I prefer the older roads in general myself!
@@ThePixelDepotLLC Yes Sir 👍