A Philosophical Answer to the Problem of Evil (Cameron Bertuzzi)
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- This video features an interview I did on the question: "Why does God allow Evil?" on the Bible Dingers Podcast.
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#Apologetics #Evil #God
The Christian worldview makes the best sense of evil & suffering. We live in a fallen world, in which things aren't as they should be. And the wheat & weeds grow up TOGETHER (Matthew 13:30). But at harvest time, they'll be permanently separated & perfect justice will be served. Evil & suffering is not solved by turning to atheism - in fact, it only makes it worse - because it removes ultimate hope & justice.
How does not believing in god remove justice?
Honest question with no wrong answer: What is more valuable to you, hope & justice or truth?
@LoveYourNeighbor Why did God create a world where thing were not as they should be? Why did he create a world that could fall so easily by the eating of a fruit by effectively children?
Theism removes ultimate hope and justice for the non-believer. It doesn't solve evil or suffering any more than a final death does; the evil and suffering is gone, but the problem of it having existed will not go away no matter what afterlife you construct.
There is a God who once made a Paradise for man and who has guaranteed for those who believe his word that it will one day again be so. In the meantime, He and his son(Jesus our Lord) are far more powerful than their (and your) enemy(the Devil and his fallen devil spirits) and they are doing their absolute best for you each day. You have God’s Word on it.
In the beginning, God decided to “allow” or “permit” the possibility of evil in order to make possible an unforced response of genuine goodness and love. If something contrary to His will happens, it is because God cannot at that moment stop it without going against His own nature. How could that be? I believe there are three very good reasons. First, because although He is the most powerful one in the war, His righteous nature requires Him to act justly toward His formidable foe, the Devil. Second, He cannot usurp anyone’s personal freedom of will. Third, His justice requires Him to allow people to experience the consequences of disobedience.
To say that God cannot always stop evil flies in the face of many Christian people’s fatalistic concept of “the sovereignty of God,” a phrase, by the way, not found in Scripture. To most Christians, this means that God is ruling over everything that happens and is thus responsible for it all. Most Christians have also been taught that God is “omnipotent,” which according to Webster’s actually means “all powerful.” Obviously, God does not have all power because Satan also has plenty. Many Christians use the term “omnipotent” to mean that God has the most power and therefore can do whatever He wants. Though we can certainly believe that God is the most powerful, we ought not believe he can always do whatever he wants. God has limited himself in His word as to what He will and will not do.
I don't like most apologists' answers to this issue. For one, they're unconvincing to atheists (I'm not one, but I can put myself in their shoes) and they can be refuted pretty easily. It's not surprise that they aren't scriptural either.
Well, the first few anyways. The answer by Irenaeus can be supported by scripture, and doesn't contain the contradictions the other two do. Funny how that is. But I don't think it's the whole answer- it leaves questions unanswered, and the Bible has more to say on this matter.
This is part of why Capturing Christianity is my least favorite apologist on TH-cam- not hating, I still like the channel overall- that is, he relies more on philosophers than the Bible. It's interesting stuff to be sure, and these are smart guys, but their theology ends up suffering from an overreliance on their own intellect and an underreliance on the Word. If you make up your own answers, they *will* be flawed- I know, I used to do it.
I think the answer to this question is best presented in Deuteronomy 30:19- "I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse; therefore choose life..."
God placed death and curse before us on purpose, because He *wants* us to choose. It isn't a matter of free *will* , but of free choice. Evil in man came from the first time man chose other than God- the tree of knowledge. Why? Because the alternative to God, the perfect one, being different, must be imperfect. Thus, we have all that is other than God- sickness, death, pain- the natural product of God offering us another choice. Not free will- that *obviously* existed before Eve took the fruit in order for her to take it in the first place- but free *choice*, once contained in the fruit of the tree, now pervading all reality.
@vikedude 123 That is a *very* good answer! I love your reliance on scripture. One thing though- I might have missed this if you addressed it- why disasters, sickness, and other natural causes of death?
@vikedude 123 Could you rephrase it? I get the idea, but I dont quite understand the part it has to play.
Damn good answer.
Thanks for being on the show my friend!
This was an absolutely phenomenal discussion Cameron, I really enjoy all your content as a new watcher and new into apologetics as well. God bless brother
Cameron should be commended on a few things. Recognizing that bad things do happen is helpful in that it gets the "nothing is really evil" nonsense off the table. Distinguishing between moral and natural evil right out of the gate is also useful. And exhibiting empathy for those who suffer is a nice gesture as well. I don't want this to be a novel, but many points were raised, and deserve to be addressed.
1. Questions are not arguments - no, but people ask it as a question to be polite. Posited differently, the argument is "The gratuitousness of evil in the world makes the assertion that God is in control inexcusable." Efforts to defend this god's goodness will necessarily be extremely difficult.
2. "Why do bad things happen to fallen people" is a subtle means of reframing the rape of minors or the wholesale slaughter of the innocent as acceptable. To paint every innocent who suffers as "fallen" is to tacitly condone whatever suffering comes their way. It smacks of victim blaming.
3. "No one is good" in the context of why bad things happen to good people gives one license to state that the Nazis were just God's instruments, implementing his perfect plan. Sounds sick, doesn't it?
4. Radical forgiveness necessitates unspeakable horror to make it remarkable. Around 28:30, Cameron seems to hesitate to find the proper words to use. What comes naturally to mind is to say "these greatest goods make the evil *worth it*", but we know that's not true. Other, more carefully selected words were necessary to avoid a serious faux pas.
5. Soul-making would make sense if there was far less suffering, but the evil on Earth is far, far in excess of that. How does the massacre of billions through history do anything to shape the souls of those who were killed? What lessons do they learn in being shot in a ditch or impaled on spikes? Soul-making sounds good to those who have it good, and whose suffering is manageable, but rings hollow for those whose lives are truly miserable. Experienced evil doesn't create saints ready for God's realm. It creates bitter, desperate people. Or corpses.
6. "Just because I can't think of a reason doesn't mean God doesn't have one" - To suggest he has an unrevealed reason for suffering implies he is either not good, or that he must accept some external pressure that constrains his power. But then he is either not almighty, or is not all good. Back to square one.
7. God could make a world with less suffering, meaning he didn't do so by choice. Natural disasters don't build souls. They annihilate the innocent and bring misery where there need not be any.
This God *as you believe him to be* cannot exist, given the circumstances on Earth. There ya go, Cameron. No questions, only counters to these theodicies.
On 5, what is an acceptable amount of evil? What amount would be necessary for this?
On 6, this is incoherent non-revelation does not equal constraint.
On 7, this is 5 restated
On 3, emotive language is not an argument. You've not made an argument.
On 2, this collapses to 5
Thank you for all that you do! I feel clarity watching these videos. I struggle with understanding The Lord's decisions because he sometimes allows schools full of children to burn to the ground and consume the little humans inside alive. But I know that he is still good and merciful.
My answer:
God could not populate the world with billions of people who all have free will, for eternity, without one person eventually screwing up. And we would end up in the same position we currently find ourselves in, though possibly even worse.
Now if God's plan is to go through eternity with people who FREELY CHOOSE to love him, and without ever committing an evil act, everyone participating in this eternity would need to witness and understand the consequences that would follow from choosing to sin. So by showing us all the horrors of sin for what will be less than the blink of an eye compared to eternity, this truly is a good option.
Also, by having EVERY human being part of this lesson, it negates the need for reproduction in eternity (hence why there will be no marriages between people).
@I Love You he did? Bible says the earth was cursed when Adam sinned
@I Love You cause if you combined free will with eternity, eventually someone is gonna screw up. With our history, we have tried everything and our lives still suck there is still war and suffering no matter what we do. So now that we have the history of man to look upon, we can honestly say "yeah we cant figure this out without you God." And man can then freely choose to follow God based on observable historic evidence rather than wondering why we cant be in charge ourselves.
Now that's just my shot in the dark. I could be wrong. There could be an even better reason.
@I Love You I dont follow? Eternity is the concept of timelessness. What do you mean "who does eternity pertain to?"
@I Love You um.... any of the billions of people that would have populated the earth?
Do you think if you explained to a rape victim...."In order for a logical argument from evil to succeed, it is necessary to show that, for some known fact about evil, it is logically impossible for God to have a good moral reason to permit that fact to obtain. This, however, is precisely what most philosophers nowadays believe cannot be shown.”....they would say, "oh, that's ok then, because God has a good moral reason for allowing this to happen to me"....?
In this world in our day to day lives, can you see any basis for such a moral reason?
No, you cant explain to a rape victim directly why God would have allowed this evil thing to happen.
That's one reason to have videos/books/articles and anything else on the problem of evil.
A rape victim may try to see how God could have allowed this later on and since the person saying their view isnt speaking directly to them, they wont feel as though they are trying to counter there awful experience with a logical argument. Just a logical argument against all of evil itself.
I hope that was clear. If you comment back I will try to respond
This is a philosophical answer, meant for scholarly debate. Not meant to help those who are hurting, that needs a pastoral answer. Which is a different things.
@@kycool8684 Yeap. That catholic pastors have your “back”. Just don’t bend your knees and show it to them.
@@GeoPePeTto well to be fair, more public school teachers have molested children than Catholic priests. The priests that have done that should be totally condemned though, but it is unfair to view all priests as Molesters when we don’t view teachers that way.
@@kycool8684 I didn’t say all of them are the same. But clearly faith and religion doesn’t change people and doesn’t help. And ofc more teachers did that, they are more than catholic priests. But as percentage clearly the priests are more guilty. And if you take into account that most of the teachers are religious too, you get the bigger picture.
The evidence of suffering is better explained by there being no all loving God because if a God who cares about humans didn't exist then we just expect to suffer. Therefore, the evidence of suffering is more expected on the "no loving God" hypothesis than it is on the "all loving God" hypothesis.
Theists can grant that. They just think that at the end of the day the case for Theism is stronger and can overpower the problem of evil.
Atheists that make this kind of argument do it way too quickly. There's no reason *whatsoever* to think that Naturalism (or atheism) predicts suffering.
For more: capturingchristianity.com/naturalism-evolution-and-explaining-evil/
Why would we expect to suffer? There are lots of living things that don't suffer at all.
@@CapturingChristianity That's a red herring. No one is talking about naturalism "predicting" anything. The argument is that _if_ naturalism + evolution is true then we are obviously just physical beings in an indifferent universe susceptible to natural disasters, pain, and suffering. So we don't need to create an excuse for _why_ suffering exists like theists do.
Any defense or theodicy you come up with will always lose the war to naturalism or some form of indifferent deism when trying to explain why suffering exists.
"Why do , the bad things happen to fallen people in a fallen world", Cameron says, "is the real question" [around 10:30]. No the real question asked was, "Why do bad things happen to good people". A little bait and switch. Questions, like ,"Have you stopped beating your wife" are dishonest because they slip in at the presupposition that the man has been beating his wife, right? Cameron's reworded question slips in his presuppositional view that people and the world are fallen.
If he was addressing this to a Christian who believed this claim of a fallen world, I would have no problem with it. But rewording this question when put to him by an atheist is dishonest, because unless he can demonstrate that the claims of a 'fallen world' and 'fallen people' are true, the question, like the wife beating question, falls flat. No atheist believes that the "world is fallen", just as a man may have never hit his his wife. He could have answered "fairies" and it would be no less illogical or dishonest.
Answer the question as asked, Cameron.
At 18:20 you mention that most philosophers don't think that free will is a very good explanation for natural evil. This statement implies that most philosophers DO think that free will is a good explanation for MORAL evil.
But something like 75% of philosophers are atheist and around 60% are free-will compatibilists, so it is safe to say that most philosophers don't accept the free-will explanation for the problem of evil at all.
Escuddy That isn’t implied. And I think 72% of philosophers of religion are theists (these are people that are going to be the most familiar with arguments like the problem of evil). Be careful who you cite as experts-it might end up backfiring.
Capturing Christianity
OK, I must have misunderstood. I didn’t mean to put words in your mouth.
@@CapturingChristianity Is it 72%? What's the source for that?
@@JCW7100 I think it comes from Chalmers's latest survey of philosophers
God allows evil but doesn't God also decree evil? We all agree that God has foreknowledge and knows all of the evil things that will happen, but the question is HOW does God know? I would say that God foreknows something will happen because He has decreed it. God's foreknowledge is based on His decree. Before the foundation of the world didn't God predestine all things that come to pass? Or are we saying that God's hands are tied when it comes to sin?
Lets take the most wicked thing to ever happen, the crucifixion of Jesus. This was decreed, predestined and foreordained by God to take place. The Romans were clearly sinning when they crucified Jesus and this was because God had it come to pass. Look at Acts 2:23...
"This Jesus, delivered up according to the DEFINITE PLAN and foreknowledge of God, crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men."
Or Isaiah 45:7......."I form light and create darkness, Causing well-being and CREATING CALAMITY; I am the LORD who DOES all these things."
Too many people worship free will in a sense or turn it into this idol. And where do people get this idea that real love must involve a choice? I don't get that one...
How is the crucifixion of Jesus the most evil thing to ever happen? 1 Person/God dies for 3 days while preaching against the current world rules. How is this more evil than the killing of hundreds of children who have done no wrong after torture
@@nadinevonbruxa2077 Jesus just like children had also done no wrong. Actually children do wrong all the time, have you not had kids before! Lol. Kids are not sinless like Jesus was. I'm not saying it's ok to kill kids but just that your comparison breaks down. The torture that Jesus went through being nailed to a cross was pretty evil. End of the day it was not good. But the thing is that the Bible teaches that he also took on the sin of the world. That would have been the worst part that NO human has ever endured. The spiritual pain and torture of that is beyond us.
I think the question, "Why does God allow Evil?" is missing the point. First of all, on the Christian world view, god didn't just 'allow' evil but he knowingly created a Universe in which gratuitous evil acts and untold suffering would occur. He didn't have to create such a Universe, he is said to be omnipotent, after all.
Secondly, it's laughably easy to imagine a Universe almost the same as this one, but with one or two tweaks to greatly improve matters:
1. Build humans such that they can all voluntarily switch off pain receptors whenever they wish. That would instantly make torture utterly ineffective.
2. Design human females such that they can voluntarily chose when an egg is fertilised. Abortions are now (practically) unnecessary.
3. Make our lungs capable of working underwater. Nobody ever drowns to death.
Those are just a couple of ideas off the top of my head, using my limited human imagination. There's no conflict in terms of free will, no logical contradictions in my proposals, and a huge increase in well-being for potentially billions upon billions of humans. Now, you may claim that god had morally sufficient reasons not to make such choices, but at what level of gratuitous and pointless suffering would you actually draw the line, and admit that the probability that an omni-benevolent god exists in our imagination only is higher than our mysterious excuses really being accurate?
If people could turn off there pain receptors would they ever have them on? If women could choose when to get pregnant would sex have any moral meaning? Lastly multi functioning lungs would be cool but how would that work, wouldn't physics have to change or extra organs?
"If God real, why he no make human into marvel superheros??? Checkmate theists"
@@lololauren55 Do you have any evidence there is no God?
I can think of some evidence that *_would_* strongly negate the logical need for a God, but it isn't actually available.
@Suicidal Dice
Some humans can supposedly control their own pain receptors. Regardless of whether or not that is true, your comment combined with the other reply is quite a silly juxtaposition. If you could turn your pain receptors off, there would be no need to do so unless you were being threatened with torture or experienced chronic pain. No danger of being on fire without your knowledge then.
And how exactly do you think the most cunning torturer in the world would convince you to undergo agony, when you could simply flick a switch in your head whenever sensations became uncomfortable?
But you are all missing the point entirely. My specific examples may or may not be convincing, as I said I'm just a limited human. You'd think a perfect, 'maximal being' could think of better ways to avoid all the pain and suffering that we are well aware that goes on in this world though. That you can't appear to think of any yourselves is just testament to your lack of imagination, and the brainwashing too of course.
@Suicidal Dice
I've yet to see any argument or evidence in support of the existence of free will. All I've heard so far is, 'well, I feel free, don't you?', and 'well, if we're not free, it wouldn't be fair to punish criminals, and I don't like that consequence, do you?'
Like I said, if you can't imagine a world without suffering, but with all the alleged 'benefits' of this world, it's just your limited imagination at fault. That and not grasping the implications of the notion of being all-powerful and all-knowing. Soul building you say? Couldn't god just have built decent souls to begin with?
You can quote Plantinga all you like, I think this arguments are childish and disconnected from reality. So he doesn't think there's a logical problem? So what?! Graham Oppy does! It seems like that's a fashionable response to the classical Problem of Evil today - we can't solve it, but still want to believe in a specific type of god, so let's just pretend it's not a problem then!
@Cameron
(Disclaim: And a counter to my statement would be “freak” accidents or events, and in such cases we’d need to look individually at everyone’s capability of avoiding even those scenarios, but I’ll save face and admit nothing really can prepare you 100% for Nature. But that doesn’t mean you go out in a lightning storm and blame God for being struck or if causing a fire etc.)
Concerning things like natural events being “evil”, for the most part we should be aware of most natural disasters coming, or the possible threat of landslides from living in an area where that’s possible, living by the beach in a Tsunami season, on islands by Dormant volcanoes, in Areas with Earthquake etc. and if we take heed to these warnings, do precautionary things, set up emergency plans and be prudent about these realistic possibilities, then even so such “evil” is avoidable to the wise.
Proverbs 22:3
“3 A prudent man foreseeth the evil, and hideth himself: but the simple pass on, and are punished.”
Proverbs 27:12
“12 A prudent man foreseeth the evil, and hideth himself; but the simple pass on, and are punished.”
actuary 1776
Ugh, oh good one! You got me. Also too bad so sad for anyone of a foreign of aboriginal origin and or current modern state of living that will never receive the Gospel . . .
Colombian Faction buddy, my friend, do you not think I had the same conclusion when I was an atheist?
*Jeremiah **17:10*
“10 I the Lord search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.”
Jeremiah 31:33
“,declares the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.”
*Revelation **2:23*
“23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.”
We all innately know through intuition what we should be doing, we have a conscience to do what is morally guided towards God and those who start to reason within themself and deny God, the existence of a being etc. we start to reason and think among ourself there is no God, and there for little to no consequence or punishment to our actions. We start to lie more, steal here and there, have thoughts that make the mind go to murder. Etc
For all eternities past, present and to come did the Son of Man pay for sin (Hebrew 13:8
“Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.”) and Jesus is the clarification through simplification of what God intended;
*Matthew **22:36**-40*
36Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38This is the first and great commandment. 39And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.”
So while we have Free Will, And will be judged according to the actions and intents of our mind and hearts, The Son of Man was appointed to be the Canon, measurement and rule of standard to what is in The Christ, from God. Genesis 3:15, and Psalms 2:12.
I will also assume you are assuming Hell is the punishment of non believers, but Hell was prepared for Satan and his Angels, for the Fallen and messengers alike. Hell is not some dominion of which Satan rules. More so Fallen Angels are bound in chains of eternal darkness. Etc.
Humans are offered forgiveness. Redemption. Rebirth of the Spirit and self. Look to Christ to live again in truth.
I didn’t like people preaching at me when I was an atheist, and I know it doesn’t do any good, since we have to reason and come to these conclusions on their own. But I strongly suggest you read the material first of which you are critiquing, instead off of memory or misquoted of others.
*Wisdom of Solomon 2:1-9*
“1 For the ungodly said, reasoning with themselves, but not aright, Our life is short and tedious, and in the death of a man there is no remedy: neither was there any man known to have returned from the grave.
2 For we are born at all adventure: and we shall be hereafter as though we had never been: for the breath in our nostrils is as smoke, and a little spark in the moving of our heart:
3 Which being extinguished, our body shall be turned into ashes, and our spirit shall vanish as the soft air,
4 And our name shall be forgotten in time, and no man shall have our works in remembrance, and our life shall pass away as the trace of a cloud, and shall be dispersed as a mist, that is driven away with the beams of the sun, and overcome with the heat thereof.
5 For our time is a very shadow that passeth away; and after our end there is no returning: for it is fast sealed, so that no man cometh again.
6 Come on therefore, let us enjoy the good things that are present: and let us speedily use the creatures like as in youth.
7 Let us fill ourselves with costly wine and ointments: and let no flower of the spring pass by us:
8 Let us crown ourselves with rosebuds, before they be withered:
9 Let none of us go without his part of our voluptuousness: let us leave tokens of our joyfulness in every place: for this is our portion, and our lot is this.”
That's one of the things I had in mind when it came to evil. God has given us everything necessary to prevent or repel disasters caused by natural phenomenon.
but why do they exist in the first place? i really can’t think of a good reason that doesn’t limit Gods power.
The theodicies provided don't help the argument at all.
The problem boils down to morality. If you have the power to stop an evil action (suffering in any form) then the morally right thing to do is to stop it, otherwise you are part of the evil action.
Supposedly God has the power to stop evil and since evil still happens that's when the dilemma appears. So loopholes need to be made, like "there's no 'good' people" (tell that to the 3 year old dying in a hospital or starving in a remote village) or freewill (which is incompatible with omnipotence) or a "divine plan that we cannot understand" and the classic "God works in mysterious ways".
It's just simpler from a logical perspective to use Ockham's razor and cut the baggage loose. Nature runs its course and it is as it is not by anybody's decision until proven otherwise.
I wouldn't dare to claim I know that there IS or there ISN'T a God, all I'm saying is "Epicurus's old questions are still unanswered" - Hume
God did stop evil; Noah flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, the Amalekites -we accused Him as a mass murderer.
Jesus healed the sick, feed the people. How did that end? We crucified Him.
To me it feels like God let us "Fine. Have it your own way, then. Let Me see how you solve it. Just go find Jesus when you finally give up."
PS: Abiogenesis never happened. Therefore, *evolution never happened* (I did asume you're an agnostic-atheist. If not, oops, sorry) Jesus loves you o/
.
.
.
(I wasn't trying to straw man your argument, just dropping some science link around -and since it was a truth claim- here are my source :
DNA building blocks (A)(T)(G)(C) solubility contradicts each other. Guanine is hydrophobic, Thymine likes basic, Adenine and Cytosine likes hot water /acidic solution.
*Therefore, the probability of spontaneous DNA is 0*
www.researchgate.net/post/how_to_dissolve_guanine_cytosine_and_adenine_for_cell_culture
www.news-medical.net/health/What-is-Thymine.aspx
www.researchgate.net/post/How_can_I_increase_adenine_solubility_in_water
pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/Guanine
gluedideas.com/content-collection/Encyclopedia-Britannica-Volume-18-Plants-Raymund-of-Tripoli/The-Chemistry-of-the.html
www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/cytologia1929/51/3/51_3_457/_pdf
www.chemicalbook.com/ChemicalProductProperty_EN_CB3746093.htm
@@Sawa607 I don't take those stories as real to begin with, that would require faith.
It is interesting that some people find it easier to believe that God, omnipotent creator of the universe, used genocide pretty often and would even go as far as to justify it.
It's just a lot easier to not multiply entities beyond necessity and assume, with the evidence that we have, that an omnipotent being doesn't exist for now.
Second, even if evolution were to be proven conclusively false it doesn't automatically mean that God exists, let alone the specific one you prefer. It would just mean that evolution is wrong, nothing more nothing less. You wouldn't claim that God exists or doesn't based on gravity or germ theory of disease just like I wouldn't claim God's existence or non-existence based on the theory evolution. That would be illogical.
I don’t get it.
Do you guys think God cannot create a world where only good exists?
What was Eden? Isn’t that what we expect to have in our future? Heaven?
Or you believe that with the incredible mind of God we are going to be bored or lack emotions because there’s no evil?
God is a mathematician and loves geometry, nature is all based and build around that. That tells us there is an intelligent mind behind the creation.
There’s many answers and ways to try to answer that.
So you start with god to arrive at god. That’s some nice circular reasoning you got there buster
@28:20
I don't think it's of such importance that we identify what are the greatest goods or evils.
it's a matter of what IS good or what IS evil...fundamentally.
I'm pretty convinced that good = love. love is selflessness.
think of the virtues that you listed @29:05 : forgiveness, encouragement, sacrifice, etc. they exemplify our desire for another's benefit.
Now think of the opposite: selfishness = evil.
look to the 10 commandments for example. do not kill, do not steal, do not commit adultery/lust, etc.
they basically translate in some way to: I deserve more than you, i'm taking your life. i'm taking your things etc. despite what it may or may not do to you or those around you.
...as long as I benefit.
The world would be a much better place if we followed the ten commandments.
How bout this simple answer? Would you want to play a game or read a book, without evil? Could you write a story with a purpose, if you excluded evil?
Now try to create a book where the main character dies of childhood disease before they can speak.
@@goldenalt3166 It has been done...
@@philiplord181 And what was the purpose of that?
@@goldenalt3166 He found his life had meaning and that he could give meaning to his child's life by honoring him with his own actions. Try and write it as an atheist. A complex lump of cells got past an abortion and died from childhood disease, one death would be no worse/better than the other. All life is meaningless as an atheist. In fact your life is so utterly devoid of meaning, you live to destroy the faith of the faithful. It will not work with me. You want to believe you are time X Chance X Infinity, what ever, have at it.
@@philiplord181 "he" sounds like the main character wasn't the child. So that doesn't count.
The question is why would a soul be killed before it has understanding or choice? The idea that there's a god who loves everyone but randomly and painfully kills some without any decision on their part is where Christianity fails completely.
Free will was given by God. We used that free will in the choices we make, God allows any choice under that free will.God gave us restrictions and warnings on what would happen if by the choices restrictions were broken. So We caused sin we know the choice as good or evil because we broke the restriction to not eat of that tree. The irony is we weren't restricted to the tree of life but because of our decision, He sent Christ to save us and the Holy Spirit to redeem us.
With all due respect, that answer was weak as water.
He did not even try to answer the question.
Do you have any reason to believe that God is not as indifferent to every kind of human suffering as he appears to be?
Great podcast brother 👍. Some of this is still over my head, but as a growing Christian I am able to take something away even though some of it goes right past me 😂
Keep going, man!
@@CapturingChristianity always brother 👍
Smh
The underlying assumption that Christians have, is that God is ‘All Loving’ and ‘Morally Perfect’.
Just because God could have reasons for allowing the evil and suffering in the world, does not automatically mean that He is ‘All Loving’ and ‘Morally Perfect’.
Soul Building ultimately won’t be beneficial for every single person. The majority of humanity is not going to spend an Eternity with God. They will be discarded by God. So, there is no point in soul building for every single person.
Soul Building would be like building multitudes of new houses and furnishing them to only in the end destroy them all.
God as He is represented in the pages of religious texts ( like the Bible ) and in all of the associated theological positions and doctrines is cruel - exceedingly cruel.
Christian Theism cannot be defended rationally nor morally.
TheMirabillis
My understanding of the Christian worldview is that is is not an assumption that God is ‘all loving’ and ‘morally perfect’, it is definitional. Therefore, the assumption is that any sense of morality we have that is counter to God must be an incorrect notion.
To those of us on the outside it seems absurd because it seems to eliminate our ability to make moral judgement; we can’t know if any individual act is good or bad because it could be another example of God commanding an atrocity. However, it you are willing to give up any common sense meaning of the terms then the worldview is entirely internally consistent.
(And if I’m wrong on this then Christians please feel free to correct me. I may be putting my views bluntly but I am not attempting to misrepresent yours.)
I Dont get why people are hating, I am a Muslim and I loved this discussion , first time on this channel but damn good job man!
If there is a god he is the source of evil.
God's Word tells us everything that we need to know. Trust in Jesus and ask Him!
It would seem to me that you have made the Bible an idol.
@@LindeeLove God's Word is my God!
@@disguy7943 But "God's Word" is contained in a book called the Bible. So you have made the Bible your God. Doesn't that make the Bible an idol?
@@LindeeLove Romans 8:5 King James Version (KJV)
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
@@disguy7943 The Bible is a thing of the world.
If a women is being raped, she is having her free will violated, god is there if he is everywhere, instead of stoping the rapist, he gives this excuse that he is preserving his free will. So at least one person's free will is violated weather god interfere or not, why god chooses the rapist over the victim free will to be preserved? That is the problem Epicurus brought, it has nothing to do with blaming god at all.
That part with the father forgiving and hugging his childs murderer seems sick and depraved to me. I cannot see it as ”great good”, let alone anything good at all! Just a side note. Otherwise, interesting arguments.
Its ok for that poor serial killer when he accepts jesus. All those people he brutally murdered dont matter anymore. Hes been given a free ticket. So Gawd is ok with evil.
actuary 1776 theo-idiocy
I thought that was sick and depraved too. Did the killer show any remorse?
I never ask why evil exists. The idea of evil is an arbitrary construct that assumes that a certain value has to occur in relation to an acceptance of a kind of idealism that should characterize or govern our existence. Animals are subject to all the laws that govern their lives including all the unfortunate aspects that we concern ourselves with in human life. But they don't ask the questions that are posed here, questions that may not have the answers that you seek. To say that the answers lie in embracing the idea that no one is good, everyone is essentially corrupt, just throws this all out with the bathwater. That conditions exist that should not be, as opposed to an acceptance of those conditions as they are without dismissal as errant or unwarranted, might be an approach to consider.
Evil is evil regardless of typing.
Why evil? Because Everything in nature has an Equal And Opposite Reaction. Humanity (free choice) chooses to be good or not good. God does Not interfere in our choices. He lets us choose how we wish to be. It’s a matter of choice. And we have consequences with our choices. Cause and Effect!
What if Free Will doesn't exist? What if you didn't choose your parents or your brain chemistry or the time or society in which you live? Now there are some interesting questions!
Since Yahweh is omniscient, he knows everything that will happen in the universe he creates. Since he is omnipotent, he could have created a different universe where Cameron chose not to create this video. However, Yahweh, chose to create a universe where Cameron DID choose to create this video. So it wasn't Cameron who had free will to choose to create this video. It was Yahweh who has the free will, and our universe is playing back like a movie. I don't see how Christians can argue with this. And acknowledging this destroys the possibility that Christianity can be true.
@Bob Smith What questions?
@Bob Smith Could Yahweh have created a universe where Cameron had free will and Cameron chose not to create this video?
@Bob Smith But Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”
@Bob Smith Luke 1:37 For nothing will be impossible with God.
Hi Linden, Yes Yahweh knows everything that will happen in the universe He created, but that doesn't mean He overrides our free will. He created Adam and Eve in a perfect world, but they still chose to rebel against Him. He knew they would do that, but He allowed it, and He could have left us in our hopeless condition, but He mounted a rescue operation.
If God is all loving and all powerful, why does he allow evil in the world?
This is a bad question because those who ask it do not want God to be present nor do they want to obey God. They are mocking God like those who said: He saved others but he cannot save himself, and, Come down from the Cross and we will believe in you.
The question arises from a misunderstanding of evil, of divine love, of God's will, and of divine power. A good question would be to ask: What is the nature of evil? And, What is the nature of divine love? And, how is God's will done when creatures of God disobey God's will? And, what is the nature of divine power in creation?
The bad question has constructed a false love and paired it with a false power, and set them in the context of a false evil. Every atheistic argument is a strawman argument misrepresenting God with a false god.
The uncreated nature of the true God is distinct from and not part of creation (it cannot be part of creation), and this is used to mock God that he who created all things out of nothing cannot be a creature, yet if he were a creature he would not be God, and yet they disprove him by treating him as a creature.
God the Word can become a creature, not by confusing the divine nature with creation, but by defining his singular person by the human nature.
God can fail to carry the physical weight of the wood of his Cross, yet he cannot fail to obey the Father and will not blame the Father even contrary to his own human will.
He cannot sin on the Cross because as God the Word he loves the Father with all his being (whether divine or human), though he can fail to carry the wood of the Cross because he is a man.
If we love God with all our being, we would not sin and there would be no evil in the world. That is the answer to the bad question above.
One who loves God will not sin.
It is a lack of personal love for God with all our being and for our neighbour as ourselves that brings out our disobedience to God's will, which is sin, and it is evil because it is contrary in nature to our good essence.
By distinguishing essence and energies like the Greek Fathers, we perceive that evil does not exist in the good essence of God's creation, but exists in the minds of those who imagine it and who attempt to realise it in their energies (thoughts, words and deeds).
Evil is not a substance or an essence of creation, and is not essential or necessary.
Evil is perceived in actions contrary to God's will of a person who lacks in love for God and thus disobeys God.
Evil strives to pervert the essence of God's creation, and thereby it weakens itself in its energies, until the ever sinful person can no longer and will no longer act, which is good.
If one does nothing but intentionally disobey God, eventually one will cease intentionally doing anything.
Evil is not in the essence of creation and thus will cease of its own if one does not repent and turn back from such an end.
Love is free and faithful in the truth of who God is and who we are relative to God and to one another.
We exist in our created essence out of nothing. We are not God in his uncreated essence. We share in the divine energies of God to become like God, who is love.
Love makes one free to love, and allows one to be faithful in love. Love binds in faithfulness and looses in freedom.
Evil strives to pervert the essence of creation, but cannot. It wears itself down by its own success until it ceases to have energy contrary to its good essence.
The good essence of one's existence cannot be perverted by evil. It remains eternally as a creation of God in his love.
Evil is judged because God in the flesh will not sin. He is dead to sin on the Cross because of his love. There is no life in evil. Life is in love.
The power of God is his divine energies, which are love, humility, faith and obedience. This is the nature of God that we perceive.
God empowers us through his divine energies to be persons as God is three persons with the power to love like God.
Choose to love God in faithfulness and truth.
If we choose not to, we create in our minds evil, which is contrary to nature, and we manifest this evil in our actions.
But these sinful actions cannot be eternal and they wear themselves down, because evil does not exist in the essence of God's creation.
So to answer the bad question again: evil does not exist in the essence of God's creation and will destroy itself by its own success, and God's power is to make us who are not God in essence to be able to love like God through his energies (grace): freely and faithfully in truth.
@@mickqQ I'm supposing you did not read my (admittedly lengthy) exposition above, so apologies for any repetition.
I believe the question originates with atheists because it is not meant to learn something about evil or God, it merely intends to form a supposed contradiction to disprove God on the basis of evil in the world.
I don't know what Gods you are specifically referring to, but I agree with you that any such Gods are unreal, except in the case of human beings.
Human beings are effectively gods with the God like power to exist as substantive persons who can freely and faithfully love in the concept of truth.
It is true that Christian apologists have taken this question and posed it to one another in order to disprove atheism.
I feel that one can profit from even a bad question, nevertheless it is a bad question.
Good questions would be to ask: What is evil? What is divine love? What is divine power?
A person asking this type of question actually wants to learn more and is not seeking simply to contrive an argument to disprove God.
Disproving God is no easier than proving God.
The problem for philosophers, whose mental abilities take them confidently into the metaphysical, is God's humility and love.
How does one, who does not appreciate the limitations of his own ignorance or is too afraid to face his ignorance, come to know the uncreated God?
How does one contemplate God who exists when nothing (of creation) exists?
Such a person cannot exist in creation in his divine nature, yet he is already perceived in part by the created mind.
What if the uncreated God were to take on human nature in creation and become a human being?
How can the same singular person of God the Word be defined by both uncreated nature and created nature?
How divine like indeed is the human person that the person of God the Word can be defined by human nature.
We are creatures perceiving yet not fully understanding the divine nature.
The divine power to cause what is not God by nature to exist like God in its own created nature is impossible to fathom in its fulness. One would have to be God to know the essence of creation let alone of God.
Yet, even in our ignorance we perceive the love of God.
From love comes humility of thought, from humility of thought comes believing in God, and from believing in God comes obedience.
It is clear how evil arises from disobedience to God.
The creature who imagines disobedience to God in his mind, then attempts to realise that disobedience in the reality of his energies (thought, words and deeds).
Evil does not exist in the essence of creation that God alone knows and touches. Evil subsists in the mind which may attempt to realise it in God's creation.
However, because evil has no life or real substance to it, and manifests only in actions, it will pass and disappear when those actions wear out.
The end of evil is self destruction.
God will not sin. Love will not sin. One who loves God with all his being will not sin.
Only by abiding in God will the human being realise his potential as the image of God, becoming like God.
What is God? Love.
What is Love?
Is there free will in Heaven?
Kind of. The idea is because you have chosen to go to heaven then you would not do something God does not want you to do. It's like when you make a product and curate to only send products you know that work.
Yes, you will have the free will to not choose sin anymore, because in heaven you will know how disgusting sin is that you would find it stupid to do it again. It's like a young child places his hand on the fire, and once it matures he doesn't want to do it again.
So does free will require anyone to choose sin? It seems like the free will in Heaven is not the same as the free will on Earth that requires sin to exist.
So free will is consistent with no sin or evil if free will exists in Heaven without sin or evil.
@@Kevorama0205 free will is the will to choose from good and evil
@Pedro Junior So free will is consistent with a world without evil, given that it exists in Heaven, which is without evil but has free will.
Therefore, free will does not require the existence of evil, given that it exists in Heaven without free will. So it is not an answer to the problem of evil.
Why not? All that has a starting point has to have an end
Burtootsie!! 😁
That's a lot better than other attempts! Trust me.
Asking questions may not be a conventional argument but they can point out contradictions, such as an all powerful, loving God allowing evil and suffering. This contradiction is a reason to doubt God's existence.
In ‘The Problem of Evil and Some Varieties of Atheism,’ atheist philosopher William Rowe says this: “Some philosophers have contended that the existence of evil is logically inconsistent with the existence of the theistic God. No one, I think, has succeeded in establishing such an extravagant claim. Indeed, granted incompatibilism, there is a fairly compelling argument for the view that the existence of evil is logically consistent with the existence of the theistic God.”
In ‘The Oxford Handbook of Philosophical Theology’, agnostic philosopher Paul Draper explains: “Although logical arguments from evil seemed promising to a number of philosophers in the 1950s and 1960s (eg. Mackie 1955), they are rejected by the vast majority of contemporary philosophers of religion . . . In order for a logical argument from evil to succeed, it is necessary to show that, for some known fact about evil, it is logically impossible for God to have a good moral reason to permit that fact to obtain. This, however, is precisely what most philosophers nowadays believe cannot be shown.”
@@CapturingChristianity "In order for a logical argument from evil to succeed, it is necessary to show that, for some known fact about evil, it is logically impossible for God to have a good moral reason to permit that fact to obtain. This, however, is precisely what most philosophers nowadays believe cannot be shown.”
Another thing that is impossible to show is that God doesn't exist. Is this in itself any reason to think He does? In the same way, not being able to show God doesn't have a moral reason to stop evil, does that mean He does?
So where does that leave us? It leaves us with terrible evil and suffering, a supposedly omnipotent, all loving God and still lots of unanswered questions.
Seriously, do you think this philosophical tap dancing makes the problem of evil go away?
Btw, care to speculate on what moral reason and impediment an all powerful, all loving God might have to not stop the holocaust?
@@CapturingChristianity Graham Oppy has a version of his Logical PoE:
philpapers.org/rec/OPPAFM
Sterba has a whole book on positive case for the Logical PoE:
www.palgrave.com/gp/book/9783030054687
"Using yet untapped resources from moral and political philosophy, this book seeks to answer the question of whether an all good God who is presumed to be all powerful is logically compatible with the degree and amount of moral and natural evil that exists in our world. It is widely held by theists and atheists alike that it may be logically impossible for an all good, all powerful God to create a world with moral agents like ourselves that does not also have at least some moral evil in it. James P. Sterba focuses on the further question of whether God is logically compatible with the degree and amount of moral and natural evil that exists in our world. The negative answer he provides marks a new stage in the age-old debate about God's existence. "
I think we all agree that the fact that a significant portion of philosophers think that the Logical PoE is not sound is irrelevant, as it is the case for most debates in philosophy.
To be fair, I think it's only a possible reason to doubt popular Christian views of God. It doesn't seem to touch a deist God or a God that is unaware or uninterested in human beings.
@@madmax2976 Ok, i think it's a strong reason.
Can I ask, did you used to post on CARM?
All theodicies are insufficient if they do not address why a being such as God might create anything at all. Otherwise, all explanations boil down to asking how the omnisicient God isn't responsible for evil if He created the beings that he knew would subsequently choose or fall into it. If the counter argument entails that creating beings with the capacity to love freely is worth the introduction of evil into the world, then that simply begs the question. If I ask you why you baked a cake, to then respond by saying that the cake really wanted to be eaten by you is to pre-suppose the existence of the very thing being inquired about. Obviously, a more reasonably answer would be that you desired to eat cake. However, that answer does not work for a perfectly self-fulfilled God.
Wrong question! The question is why does God let Satan the sower of evil live? Matthew 3:3-24 the parable of the sower says Satan is the enemy who sowed the tares! The reason God allows evil is because if God destroys Lucifer then he must also destroy billions of his children who rebelled with him.and this world teaches us what separation from God is! This world is unfair and full of suffering!
because god can do whatever he wantss. thats why
The answer is quite simple.
There obviously is no all loving, all knowing and all powerful god…..even my kids can see the plainly obvious . Sophisticated Christians have to massage the word love to look more and more like neglect to try and have it hold…..but it doesn’t hold….and broke a centuries ago.
Evil exist to give free choice. If God only made it so we were with ability only to do good then we would not be with ability to choose Him not. This is not free choice, but a necessity to choose, which is not a real choice to love and obey God. Therefore, without a real choic to contend not with the Lord maketh it so love is nul and void. And thus, God would not be love not would we be with free will.
The act of God - that of creating an entire universe knowing every single outcome and every single detail out of any number of possibilities - is so incredibly incomparable to our experience that it makes it very hard for us to judge instances of evil around us. It is incomprehensibly beyond the scope of human action and experience.
We can still make some probability assessments and claim that evil gives us some evidence against God. But it will be purely probabilistic, and less than compelling, given the intrinsic difficulty in morally judging this kind of action so beyond our experience. I am sympathetic to probabilistic arguments of evil. I just think that, at the end of the day, the arguments for theism are much stronger and far, far outweigh the problem of evil, rationally speaking - contingency, cosmological arguments, fine tuning, consciousness and reason, moral arguments, applicability of mathematics to the universe, epistemological arguments, miracles, religious experiences, etc.
As for the best specific defense against the problem of evil, I recommend Alexander Pruss's "Blink of an eye" response. Google "alexander pruss blink of an eye".
I've never heard so much BS.
First you need to prove God is not just a figment of your imagination, then ask why God allows evil.
@@InternetRaccoon Arguments are no proof that God exist - especially when the arguments have been debunked. Nobody knows if God exists or not and nothing is wrong with anyone presenting arguments for the existence of a God, but it is intellectually dishonest to reach a conclusions out of arguments from ignorance and make up silly religious stories to fool yourself and others.
You raise one up to cast one down. Satan was made with the mark of perfection promoted to cherub to hover above God and christ his son. He had much wisdom and gifts from God. He grew pride and passion because he wasnt seen as Gods equal and he was only to serve. God creates good but evil created it self through Satans will to rebel. Why not blame the first instead of blaming all the things that happened after the first sinning creature.
For those of us who don’t believe in the supernatural, the term “evil” is roughly synonymous with “unnecessary suffering”. So when you discuss stuff like “the greatest goods require the existence of evil” as a response to the problem of evil it seems that you are implying that all unnecessary suffering ultimately leads to a greater good. Is that your intent?
If the suffering were unnecessary then it wouldn't be necessary for a greater good.
@@barry.anderberg You believe that there is no such thing as unnecessary suffering, even though it seems to be extremely prevalent in our world?
@@escuddy3244 many theists would be willing to bite the bullet, especially since it IS hard to fully comprehend every outcome and every event out there. An omniscient God can. We can't. We're limited to our experience of finite actions, finite knowledge, and finite lives. It is not that hard to imagine that every evil here might indeed be compensated for, sublimated, or outweighed by many different considerations that come into play with theism: soul building theodicies; free will; an infinite afterlife; etc.
A theist can also grant that our experience of evil does, indeed, grant us prima facie evidence against God. I accept that. I just think this evidence is less than compelling (for reasons explained above) and in any case, rationally speaking, are far outweighed by the arguments for theism.
@@escuddy3244 No, I think there's plenty of unnecessary suffering.
Mickey Esoum
I can have limited knowledge of a situation and still conclude that an act by someone with more knowledge than me is immoral.
Consider if we were to see a prison that is filled with malnourished inmates; some starving to death. We are totally justified in concluding that the Warden is immoral in his mistreatment of the inmates. Now suppose we talk to some of the starving inmates and they believe that the Warden is justified in allowing them to starve because it is possible that the starvation will make the prison better at some unspecified time in the future. Would this convince you that the Warden is above reproach?
You are doing the question wrong. The real way to ask the question is "Why is Jesus of Christianity so evil?"
In order for a God of the Universe to have a Torture Quest here on Earth, the God has to have someone do that to them self. Jesus of Christianity could have an angel do it to him, angels would obey orders. But instead, Jesus of Christianity has a brutal, torturous military, the Roman Empire military, do it to him. That also requires that the Roman Empire military has to have a brutal, torturous, military occupation of Judea for many years. How did Jesus of Christianity know, just know, that when the God Jesus was born near there, the Roman Empire military would still have Judea under military occupation 33 years after the God Jesus was born there? Did the Roman Empire military have Freewill? What if the Roman Empire military decided that it wasn't worth the occupation? What if the military was needed elsewhere? What if the collapse of the Roman Empire happened hundreds of years before it did? Then the God Jesus would be on the Earth, with no one to torture, kill and murder the God Jesus. So there must have been some collusion between the God Jesus and the Roman Empire military to have a multi year brutal military occupation of Judea and a brutal military occupation of Judea.
Then the question, did God Jesus train the Roman Empire military is torture? What if the torture wasn't strong enough for God requirements?
Did God Jesus pay the Roman Empire military for it's services? God Jesus isn't some hippie is he, thinking he can get stuff for free?
Then also ask if a medical doctor could heal someone of a disease that the medical doctor knows he can heal, but then doesn't heal them, is that moral?
God Jesus, being a God, knew about the value of sanitation, cleanliness, sterilization, inoculation and medication to prevent disease. This being true because, God Jesus, we know is a God and not some character of human created stories. So why did God Jesus not tell humans about the value of sanitation, cleanliness, sterilization, inoculation and medication to prevent disease?
As a side question, mothers (and fathers, but this question just for mothers) who have their children die to disease, it is really hard on them. Is the pain that a mother would have for their entire life of having a child die, worse than a God dying on a cross and spending 3 days who know where? 3 days basically a 3 day weekend getaway?
I got some more questions for you after that.
@Resurrected Eyes I'm not that familiar with Richard Carrier and what he saying and writing. I've mostly followed the writings of Thomas Jefferson, who thought that Christianity was not true. Jefferson wrote that anybody who thinks that if you believe in Jesus of Christianity, then you should live forever in heaven is some kind of honest Justice, you really haven't done much thinking on it. Clearly, Jesus of Christianity and the Christianity story is some kind of human created system. Humans are that dishonest and corrupt to not study the matter sufficiently.
We humans advanced because of the Age of Enlightenment philosophers and because we know more about the natural world. If is not because we know more about Christianity or Jesus of Christianity.
There are basically 4 God Categories.
1) Supernatural God.
2) Nature's God.
3) Story God.
4 Not a God.
A Supernatural God would be a Nature's God, plus whatever makes it a Supernatural God.
A Nature's God would have knowledge about Nature and now Nature works.
A Story God would be a God that humans make up stories about. A Story God would not know about natural ways to prevent disease, but could cure people of disease in the stories that humans make up about the Story God. So Jesus of Christianity would have stories about curing people of Leprosy, but does not know how to cure and prevent Leprosy using Nature. Jesus of Christianity did not tell humans to investigate Nature to develop Sciences like Physics, Chemistry, Biology, etc. and eventually what we have as modern medicine.
Jesus is a Story God. Jesus is a human created Story God, not a Supernatural God and not a Nature's God. Which means Jesus of Christianity is Not a God at all, but a human creation of a God.
That's what you would learn if you read from the philosophers of the Age of Enlightenment. Many History of Philosophy books would help you out.
A god who needed to create natural disasters so that people could do good is an odd god. Why choose the exact level of suffering that we now have? Why do only some people experience real disasters, natural and otherwise? (Yes, these are obviously rhetorical questions. Obviously.) And why create angels knowing that a third of the lot will use their free will to behave immorally? While we're at it, what do angels do all day anyway?! But you're last bit of theodicy was air-tight. You have no idea why the god you say you believe in would create a world with so much suffering. Here's my explanation: People suffer from earthquakes because of the geology of the planet.
You are right on the money 👍
Along the lines of geology, even this is Biblical: genesis 3:17-19 describes the curse of the ground and how men would struggle against the earth for both food and ultimately death, for from dust we began and back to dust we will end
Questions aren't arguments. Are you asking because you want an answer, or are you asking because you've already made up your mind?
@@Draezeth As I made clear, my questions were rhetorical. They are meant to get across a point.
Here is another possibility,....When God Created the expanse of the heavens and the Earth, He said "let there be light", God saw that the light was "GOOD",... It never states he Created the DARKNESS yet, He STILL separated the light FROM the darkness making it Holy, Was there darkness before he Created the light?, He Created light to be ABLE to separate it FROM the darkness, and He gave us night and day to give us a way to understand and see the difference,.. Then in verse eleven, on the THIRD day," let the land produce vegetation" and then it says the land DID PRODUCE vegetation, and it was good,. so there's light that sustains the vegetation, but no sun yet, as it doesn't get Created until the fourth day,.. The Earth has been formed, the waters have been divided, the vegetation is ALREADY producing, yet the "lights" of the expanse have yet to be Created, but the Earth is ALREADY producing vegetation,... So how is it that life is STILL flourishing with no sun yet to shine as we know it, and no moon to give tides? When he Created Light and separated it FROM the darkness and saw that it was "GOOD" , what must He have seen to assess it good? Did He see that the vegetation flourished from this light he Created, thus what the vegetation was thriving on,.. and thus, what He saw as good?, but not yet coming from the sun, as it wasn't Created yet, but we know Jesus is the light of the world and God did say the light was "good" as opposed to what? evil? darkness, confusion? For He DID separate it early on and which made it Holy,.... Then on the FOURTH day God said "let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to SEPARATE the night from the day", and God made two great lights, the sun and moon to rule the day and night, Yet, vegetation had already been thriving before the physical sun had been Created,.. Then He made the stars.
Atheist responds to all arguments in video:
Hear me out man... here's the argument (you did a good job staying on point, this is just for reference):
1.God exists.
2.God is omnipotent, omnibenevolent and omniscient.
3. An omnipotent being has the power to prevent that evil from coming into existence.
4. An omnibenevolent being would want to prevent all evils.
5. An omniscient being knows every way in which evils can come into existence, and knows every way in which those evils could be prevented.
6. A being who knows every way in which an evil can come into existence, who is able to prevent that evil from coming into existence, and who wants to do so, would prevent the existence of that evil.
7. If there exists an omnipotent, omnibenevolent and omniscient God, then no evil exists.
8. Evil exists (logical contradiction).
Atheist not only dismiss the Free Will argument because of natural evil (or coincidental). I didmiss it completely because scientifically it is completely pointless to adhere to libertarian free will defined as:
- The ability to have done otherwise;
-the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate;
- the ability to act at one's own discretion.
Because if you're an empiricist these concept are nonsensical. If the universe is deterministic then you are ALWAYS bound by the constraint of natural law, if not then the universe is random (notice that this is not a false dichotomy because if say the universe was not random then it by definition is predictable, which by definition leads to determinism) and random LITERALLY means you not only can't control your actions but also can't even predict them (for example the randomness implied by current quantum mechanics suggest such a universe).
ALSO the argument is about GOD, if he is BOUND by natural law like momentum or fluid mechanics that REINFORCES the argument that he's not omnipotent.
Radical Forgiveness and all virtues by our human definitions necessitate a world which includes suffering, but God's omnipotence isn't bound by such necessities - IF he's omnipotent he'd be able to jump over logical inconsistencies with ease and because he's not doing that this too is literally part of the argument - the whole idea is that God is LOGICALLY fallable and any counterargument to the problem of evil REQUIRES you to imply logical inconsistency.
The greatest possible goods and virtues require evil only because they exist in the context of the world God has created. You're again saying that "If God wanted a world that had these sorts of great making features...only in that type of world will the opportunity be given to individuals to exemplify these virtues" which only gets you back at where we started because if God HAS to to do anything that implies he's got no choice in the case where he wants people to be virtuous other than to allow evil WHICH MEANS HE AIN'T OMNIPOTENT and if you insist he is, that's a logical inconsistency and the argument still stands. The only way you can argue against this is that God is either NOT omnipotent or NOT omnibenevolent - that's the point Cam.
SKEPTICAL THEISM is LITERALLY admitting that it IS a logical fallacy, but you still believe in God anyway. Let's say he has some ultimate reason, like preventing some greater evil, like "non existence of virtue" or some unknown GREATER evil. This would imply God's only option for stopping this greater evil is chosing the lesser evil which is "allowing evil to exist in the first place". Let's ignore how ridiculous this is considering greater evil wouldn't exist if he hadn't allowed evil to exist... If he is limited to choosing the lesser evil instead of preventing the greater evil, then he's got limited power and AGAIN is not omnipotent.
Case Closed.
peTZspeTZ we live in a fallen world, there is no problem of evil, this life and this flesh is temporary hence were here to see who wants a relationship with God “Heaven, and who rejects God “Hell”, no Christian sees the way atheists do with this problem because it doesn’t exist
@@japexican007 Except that only kicks the can down the road. Yeah, the world may have fallen, but God is the one who let it fall.
Therefore, he still holds responsibility for the fallen state of the world, hence the problem of evil.
@@hawkxlr So he should make it impossible for Adam and Eve to have taken a bite from the tree of good and evil. Then they do not have free will.
@@gabrielpeterson2079 I wasn't thinking of it like that. God can let humanity do good and evil, but he could also not let the world fall.
The aspects of a fallen world, like famine, tsunamis, hurricanes, etc. seem totally unnecessary to maintain humanity's free will, so why are they there?
hawkxlr who says he doesn’t hold the responsibility? God has an ultimate plan, haven’t you read the Bible? Hence there is no actual problem of evil, atheists just don’t like it
*Q&A between some Atheists with me.*
*1) Did God created evil?*
No. In Bibical perception, God only created good and teach good.
Genesis 1:31 "And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good."
*2) Does God alow evil?*
No, because Evil came as a result of humanity's choice. When God created human beings, He gave them a choice to obey or disobey. Because love always involves a choice.
Genesis 3:22 "And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:"
Natural disasters are a result of humanity's original sin. Therefore God cannot be blamed for the evil that continues. Humanity is directly or indirectly responsible for evil.
*3) Wouldn't be All Powerful God eradicate evil?*
In its time God will eradicate evil. The day is coming when suffering will cease and God will judge evil.
Jeremiah 32:27: "Behold, I am the Lord, the God of all flesh. Is there anything too hard for me?"
Ecclesiastes 3:11 "He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the human heart;"
*4) Wouldn't be All Loving God just eradicate evil?*
Just because he hasn't done it yet doesn't mean he won't do it. But God teach how to avoid evil, to defeat evil and to fix the world from evil.
2 Timothy 3:16: "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"
God promises to cause good to emerge, not promise immediately or even in this life how God has caused good to emerge from a bad circumstance, but according to His purpose.
Rome 8:28: "And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love Him, who have been called according to His purpose."
Instead of impatiently eradicated evil, God is patient with everyone to come to repetance.
Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."
Those the evidences of a loving God, that he would care that much for us.
The question should be "Why do atheist/people allow evil?"
Sometimes people are malicious, sometimes we are complacent, sometimes we are incapable. Do any of these apply to God?
Escuddy I don’t think it does,
Is a cop evil for stopping a bad guy?
Is God evil for punishing sin?
japexican007
The problem is more that God allows evil than that he punishes it. So a better analogy is whether a cop is evil for allowing a crime that he could effortlessly prevent.
Escuddy ah but is a cop God, and is God evil for stopping a crime or is he evil for stopping free will and forcing his morality on creatures who might not want to abide by his morals?
japexican007
I guess it depends on the crime? It is definitely more evil for God to allow a murder than for him to violate the murderer’s free will. I mean, isn’t that true in any fair system? A person has the right to their fundamental freedoms as long they are not violating those of another?
Edit: and I’m not really committed to the cop analogy, just responding to your comment.
I appreciate this
Do the "greatest goods" require that people aspire to obtain them? I'd argue yes. So, Cameron, would you aspire to have your children murdered so you could achieve the greatest good of forgiving their killer?
I think a necessary component of any "good" is that it's at least desirable. How can something be considered anywhere close to the "greatest good" if you absolutely dread it?
Seems to me that a greater good than forgiving my children's murderer is to live a long happy life with my children, alive! But who am I to say such outrageous things, I'm just a dumb atheist with no moral authority to say what is good or bad.
Would you ask Hitler, Stalin, or Mao Zedong the same thing?
Thanks for the podcast but I have questions as a not very sophisticated atheist.
When we take "Why bad things happen to good people?" question form, the answer that there is no good people or bad people doesn't seem plausible to me.
If we accept genetic effects on behaviours (I know citation needed here but I don't really remember where I've read this, might be Blank Slate by Pinker), we would be able to say that, as some people would have more genetic sequences that would lead to better actions than others, they would do actions related with good than others, of which the causes are these genetic sequences.
I think there seems to be an implicit reasoning that, even if a person did only good things in his/her own life, he/she still would have the potential to do bad things. So what really matters here is circumstances, being in good circumstances would create good behavior, being in bad ones would create bad ones. If it is that much depended on circumstances, then we can't say there are good or bad people. If what I've written above is what is defended by you, then I agree with you on that. But there seems to be two problems for me:
1. Even if circumstances affect actions that much, there would still be good people. There are still people whose acts are evil even under good circumstances so that may imply that actions still are choices that are done by free will.
2. Wouldn't you say that the father who forgives his son's killer is good? If soul building theodicy states that, suffering must be present for greater goods to come up, then it seems to me that this theodicy attributes good or bad titles to the people. And I think this contradicts with the idea that there are no good or bad people.
And my final objection is to the soul building theodicy. Yes, I agree that it creates a greater good. But during this creation, some non-moral agents are used instrumentally. Let's take an example of a father whose new-born child has been raped (unfortunately, there are cases like these). It may be a soul building process for father, but as the child is not a moral agent, for he/she is not able do moral reasoning and is not aware of the outcomes of the actions, then he/she is used instrumentally here. If you take, and I believe you do, intrinsic value of all humans, it wouldn't be right to say that persons would be used for instrumental purposes. Also, it is wrong in the Kantian sense.
I'm expecting your comments on my objections. I might have taken some of the points incorrectly so please excuse my misunderstandings ^^
You used the words *GOOD/BAD* 20 times or so in your post. So where do people even come up with a sense of "good/bad"? Is there not some moral sense that is innate with e/one to begin with? What then, or *WHO* then do we attribute that to, because morals aren't derived from rocks or any inanimate matter.
Cameron this Episode was great. I'm glad you shared it on TH-cam. It was very insightful \helpful.However all you have said here Just explains moral evil (the person forgiving his killer), you have not really provided any reasons for natural evil. I really think this wasn't too much at all. It was very clear\consise, well thought out out and not Boamrding at all.
Regarding the free will response to the problem of evil, if you outlined this to a rape victim, do you think they would say, "oh, that makes God allowing rape ok", then?
Whatsisface 4
..Evil is never OK. Your thinking is warped.
@@wmthewyld That wasn't my point, you need to think in a clearer manner. My point was about God allowing evil, not about evil itself.
I don’t rely on free will. I think free will can be misappropriated. For example, it’d be wrong for me to give my 2 year old son the freedom to carry a loaded gun around in my house. My preferred theodicy is Soul-Building.
@@CapturingChristianity But you talked at some length about free will, and unless I missed it, you didn't say what you've said here so it's fair game to critique what you said about it.
As for soul building, I can use the same objection. Do you think that if you told a rape victim that God allowed the rape to happen in order to build your soul, they'd say, "Oh, that makes it all right then"...? You're basically justifying rape, because it's good for the soul? Really?
Presuming a deity exists, such a being would permit evil because:
It is unable to stop it
It's not aware of the evil
it is unwilling to stop it
Seems to be all the possible options.
Do you have any thoughts on something I said in the video?
If he is unwilling to stop it, that doesn't make God evil or indifferent. He could have morally sufficient reasons for allowing the evils we see. It's very hard to judge an omniscient God who knows every single outcome of every single situation to its tiniest details. It's so beyond our experience that it's really hard to judge.
Of course, evil might give some probabilistic evidence against God since it might seem implausible that there is a morally sufficient reason for all that, but this cannot be established with anything close to certainty. At best it is a probability assessment. I am sympathetic with it. I just think the arguments for God are stronger, at the end of the day
Which one do you think is most likely?
madmax2976
Or ya know, this deity gave free will to beings, anything short of free will would be counter intuitive to a true loving God, and with this free will we act as agents of evil.
A God stopping evil (like when he uses people to intervene and end wickedness, child sacrifices etc. with the Canaanites) otherwise is then just mocked for doing “evil” himself by same people who are complaining that there is evil in the world to begin with.
Honestly, I see no issue and anyone using Evil to try and poke holes at the being who placed moral law upon us, is themselves a huge hypocrite and rather delusional.
@@barry.anderberg I think it's impossible to put any real odds on it. :) Too many unknowns.
23:00 I'm not crying you're crying
21:28
that provokes evil, boys & grils
tbh, as a theist the answers given in this video are horrible and convoluted.
the answers are really simple
What do you think is the simple answer for this problem?
And what do you think people would say in response to this answer of yours?
Are there any holes you think they might try to bring up?
@@hawkxlr
there are no holes because there isn't any other way
@@AP-bo1if If I might ask. What are these impenetrable and simple answers?
@@hawkxlr
which question?
@@hawkxlr
as a theist, I'm taking a non-biblical stance here on this issue. And I'm not sure, but I'm probably the first person to reason in such a manner (not that I'm special or anything, but I have thought about these issues for quite some time now). I'll keep this short though. when it comes to the problem of evil, I don't think God would (not could) create this type of physical reality in any other way. now here is the problem; problem itself. one could say God would create a problem free universe. it would be quite sadistic actually. I do not want to be bored. I do not want to be problem-free. I do not wish a problem-free universe on my worst enemy (well maybe I do). because a problem free universe would literally imply that there is nothing to do, nothing to solve, nothing to really care for. it completely removes the spiritual fulfillment from life. this is why a significant degree of freedom is necessary and fundamental to reality, how we interact with it and vice versa that allows us to experience one of the greatest things given to us by God: problems.
Evolution is real!!
Stupid
@AlphaChad I just want the lies out of the textbook. Piltdown man, Java man, ... shall I go on?
@@maxxpro4 , can you show me one modern biology textbook that positively asserts that Piltdown man was the fossil remains of a once existing human antecedent? You can't, because Piltdown man was a hoax, and now every scientist knows it. That some scientists got taken in a century ago means nothing. Please stop spreading lies.
@@erichodge567 when was piltdown, java man finally accepted as a hoax?
There is no grater love than laying down one's life for his friends. Selfless love for one's people is the greatest love. The same is what Christ did on the cross for all people.
The title of this video is a little inaccurate. Considering natural evil it should be, "why does God create evil knowing it's going to cause death and great misery and suffering"?
I think I would argue though that God didn't create evil, no? God created free will, free will gives people the ability to be evil.
Deuteronomy 30: 15. See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
yeah, the cat is on the prowl, God's arch enemy, the Devil, and he is the cause to all evil effects.
@@allentomas3417 Isaiah 45: 7. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
@@MAVEN187 you live in and with it therefore, dummy
@@allentomas3417 with what?
@Desire Of All Nations yeah
Evil seems to be a slippery word. Far too easy to slip into equivocation fallacy when using it.
Agreed. I prefer to call it the problem of unnecessary suffering.
I’ve listened to this a couple times and still don’t know what you mean by ‘evil.’ Humans got into all this trouble when they first tried doin logic with the serpent.. We should follow St. Francis’ teaching. Preach the gospel to all living beings; only use words as a last resort (I took the liberty of paraphrasing)
God gave us free will, we freely commit evil, hence evil.
I don’t expect my parent(s) to hold my hand all my life and be held accountable for my actions, at a certain point you need to mature, grow up and be ready for consequences to your actions.
God doesn’t “allow” anything. And you can’t complain against same said God about there being evil committed by free willed beings, but then expect that God to have no intervention in your life. Idk seems simple to me and proves further my constant stating that atheists are just extremely immature.
So the Nazis "free will" was more important than the lives of the Jews they murdered?
No matter your version of free will, surly you grant that there are things beyond it’s power.
We can’t will ourselves to grow wings or a third arm or not to have ALS.
Therefore, god created us so that some things are unattainable regardless of our will or ability to imagine them.
And if god is all powerful then he could make it so that things other than willing away diseases or growing new appendages are out of the reach of our will- such as evil.
If you credit god for creating us with certain attributes and without others it’s seems arbitrary to pick and choose which to credit him for.
Sandra Banks
The Jews had the Free Will to fight back and rise up, revolt and not take it. There were years and months of censorship, curfews, limitations on them etc. they had the free will to be wise and leave. They stayed in such upcoming living conditions and suffered.
There were so many slaves per ratio to guards at the camps that they could of easily fought back with the lost of but a few, instead of slowly accepting their fate.
SJD
You’re talking about like as if Will is something for me to bend to my design, like some Free-Masonic World view or those that think they can weave the Hodge Podge, the Chaos. I think you’re on a very different topic of Will, and willing into existence ... so I’m not even really going to get into this further.
But our attributes aren’t set in stone, hence we can have our hearts hardened and our lives reborn. Etc
Sandra Banks
Think I posted to you a comment that’s been shadow banned, put in spam etc. but more or less it was that your question begs the problem with atheistic world view.
The Nuremberg trials were about the very thing of there being a “higher Law” the Law Of God and a Creator Of such creations, and crimes against Humanity.
With out God the majority of such crimes were going to be written off as “we’re following orders” which we both know is a weak cop out.
GOD created living being - all kinds. HE gave all living beings FREE WILL - the nature to be totally independent and to choose between good and bad. Some choose to do bad / evil. Its that simple. The evil done in this universe and all dimensions of creation, is not His doing. He allows evil to rise as dross and this one day all evil and evildoers will be burned away as dross. Its all about purification of creatures and creation.
And what about evils not caused by human actions? Tsunamis and hurricanes have killed millions. Why does God allow those?
@@hawkxlr God does not allow any of it! And it's all done intentionally to hurt God in the worst possible way! God's creation is God's love! So who and why would anyone or thing want to do that to God? You can bet something is seriously wrong and that something is seriously very real.
@@lordofthenulllines8953 Can anything happen in God's creation if he doesn't allow it? Is God not all powerful?
@@hawkxlr the thing is this! When we say the word God are we speaking of the almighty creator? Or God the ruler obey me or else! There's a difference! And that difference is the reason why something is terribly wrong. And is also why the heavens war is still happening today.
@@lordofthenulllines8953 There may be a difference, but how does that difference matter?
Regardless of the title given to him, he's still the same being is he not?
Stick to playing with your cameras.
To show atheists that God exists but they still can’t comprehend it
According to the apostle Paul Christianity is foolishness to those who don’t believe. Why would you expect otherwise?
Escuddy indeed it’s not a matter of the will it’s a matter of the heart
japexican007
That’s absolutely not true. Countless people who diligently seek the truth of God never find him.
Escuddy are they finding him to be right or are they finding him because they are seeking God, neither you nor I know that but we do know what Gods words says about those who seek him and those who claim to be wise
japexican007
The scriptures can give us insight into humanity, but ultimately I trust my own observations of the world around me more than a biblical teaching. I see people from all faiths and all walks of life who are incredibly intelligent and diligently seek to understand the true nature of reality. I don’t see any reason to believe that those from some particular group must be disingenuous.